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King's Ransoms: Are Left Fielders Worth It?

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October 2006 was a happier time (via newyork.mets.mlb.com). Yes, I got this off of the Mets' official site. How awesome is that? No, I never tire of posting photos from the magical 2006 run.


 

Lets go back to a happier time, a little more than three years ago, when the St. Louis Cardinals had dispatched of the San Diego Padres in the NLDS, defeated the New York Metropolitans in a high-drama, classic NLCS, and then defeated the heavily-favored Tigers in the World Series for the franchise's National League-leading tenth world title. It was a title that the MV3 deserved, even if the MV3 was little more than a shell of its former greatness. After the season, there were many decisions to be made about the World Champs' roster, and Walt Jocketty, much to the chagrin of many in the VEB community who recognized that the '06 Cards needed a shake-up to compete for the playoffs in '07, was largely content to bring the '06 champs back for a victory lap in '07. There were two immediate offensive upgrades available on the open market. Both happen to be left fielders, then and now, both went to NL Central rivals, and both offer cautionary tales on investing nine figures in thirty(-something) outfielders.

ALFONSO SORIANO TO THE CUBS

One of the players coveted by some on this board was Alfonso Soriano. Walt Jocketty didn't bite, and the Cubs swept him up, immediately adding more punch to a lineup that already had the power bats of Derek Lee and Aramis Ramirez at the infield corners.

Soriano was the prize catch of the 2006-07 Hot Stove. He had just completed an impressive Age 30 season in the cavernous RFK Stadium, former home of the Nationals. He swatted 46 home runs a year after hitting 36 in the homer-friendly Ballpark at Arlington (or whatever the corporate name is these days). His line was impressive: .277/.351/.560/.911, a career-high OPS in his free agent year. And the Cubbies rewarded him handsomely, giving Soriano an eight-year deal worth $136 million, the largest in the franchise's long history. The Cubs' Official Site also gives us this perspective on the Soriano deal:

Soriano's package is the fifth largest given to a Major League player, behind Alex Rodriguez ($252 million for 10 years), Derek Jeter ($189 million for 10 years), Manny Ramirez ($160 million for eight years) and Todd Helton ($141.5 million for 11 years).

It was an addition that would ultimately prove enough to help make the Cubs the last club standing in an underwhelming NL Central the following year when Soriano repeated his career-high WAR of 5.5 for the Cubs in '07. That year, the backloaded deal paid Soriano $10 million for $22.7 million in value from the left fielder, and many a Cubs fan celebrated the signing while many a Cardinals fan bemoaned DeWitt for not opening DeWallet and making Soriano a Cardinal.

The next year, 2008, the Cubs were a juggernaut. They had some of the best pitching and hitting in the league and bulldozed their competition in the division while securing the NL's top record. Everything fell into place for Hendry's 25 and the season was magical...until they repeated their 2007 NLDS flameout and were swept into the history books, providing a sad chapter that commemorates their 100th consecutive year of losing. Soriano had a good year, OPSing .876, but his WAR fell to 3.3, giving the Cubbies $13.8 million in value for $14 million in salary in his Age 32 season.

We all know that Soriano's production fell off the proverbial cliff in the just-completed summer of 2009. Soriano hit .241/.303/.423/.726 over 522 PAs in 117 games and his UZR/150 went from 5.2 in '08 to -13.4 in '09 (for whatever the reason, e.g., UZR being slightly unreliable, Soriano being injured, Soriano aging, Soriano having a bad defensive season). His offense, coupled with his defense, resulted in Soriano's WAR plummeting to -0.8, giving the Cubs -$3.6 million in value for Soriano's$16 million 2009 salary. In three years with the Cubs, Soriano has given them $32.3 million in value, according to WAR, for a salary of $40 million. As noted above, however, Soriano is still under contract for five more years. Through 2014. At $19 million annually.

This is not to say that the 34-year-old Soranio, in the Poststeroids Era, will not OPS .900 next year and put up a WAR of 5.5 on the strength of a complete revival of his game, but it is also possible, perhaps even likely, that Soriano will struggle to OPS even .800 and against be a negative value for the Cubs. It is worth taking notice and seeing just how easy it is for yesterday's triumphant signing to become today's albatross contract.

CARLOS LEE TO THE ASTROS

The aptly nicknamed El Caballo couldn't ever field--and this is something that UZR and scouts alike will agree--so it is unlikely that the Astro front office ever had even the seed of a thought in its collective mind that he could be even serviceable as a full-time left fielder. (At least this is what I tell myself.) No, they wanted the .300-average, 30+ home run power hitter. So what if his last name doesn't begin with a "B," he was a killer of baseballs. Like Soriano, Lee had just completed an impressive display of offensive power in his Age 30 season. He whacked 37 homers between Milwaukee and Arlington while posting a slash line of .300/.355/.540/.895. It was a 2.6-WAR season for Lee and got him a $100 million, 6-year deal (with a "nominal weight clause") to patrol the Crawford Box-shorted pasture of left field in Enron Minute Maid.

"This is a historic commitment to winning," Astros general manager Tim Purpura said. [Author's Note: Purpura said this upon signing a .300-hitting, ~30 HR left fielder. Hmmm. Who could I see saying the same thing come Thanksgiving, upon inking another .300-hitting, ~30 HR left fielder to a 6-year, $100+ million contract...]

Again, the contract was backloaded (as contracts tend to be). Again, this made the contract look pretty good, in terms of value, in the early years.

How the Crawford Boxes affect his UZR is certainly up for debate, but he has been consistently below average during his three years in Houston, according to the metric. Thus, a downward trend in defense has not negatively impacted Lee's WAR, like it had Soriano.

Lee can hit and has done so consistently for the 'Stros, even if his power numbers were somewhat lower this season. His slugging percentage was .528 in '07, .569 in '08, and then .489 in '09.  Lee has hit for average--.303, .314, and .300--in his three seasons. In fact, offensively, Lee has been about what one would expect him to be through his Age 33 season. In terms of value, he has delivered a 3.3-WAR '07, giving Houston $13.5 million in value for $11.5 million in salary. In '08, his WAR was again 3.3, that year providing a $15 million value for $12.5 million in salary. This year, his WAR fell to 2.4, good for a value of $10.6 million. His salary, though, climbed to $18.5 million, giving the club a value-to-salary ratio of -$7.9 million. For three years, Lee's net value by WAR has been -$3.4 million for Houston. Who thinks he will be worth the $19 million annual salary the Astros will pay him in each of 2010, 2011, and 2012? Me, neither. Maybe they could trade him? Not according to the ESPN article on the contract.

A source told ESPN.com's Jayson Stark the only significant non-monetary clause in the contract is that Lee will have a complete no-trade clause for the first four years of the deal and a limited no-trade for the final two years.

So, we have two power-hitting left fielders who were signed to long-term, $100 million (or more) contracts by divisonal foes in the not-so-distant Hot Stove of aught-six. As Cardinals fans, we can sit back and chuckle as we watch them "earn" their $19 million salaries over the next three or five years. And we should do as much, but we should also look in the mirror and ask ourselves what Matt Holliday is worth in both years and dollars, because, come 2012, our franchise could be weighted down by a $100-million albatross contract just as the Astros and Cubs are today.

Next Installment: "The Parameters of Signing Holliday"

10 recs  |  Comment 191 comments

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Those are the two worst case scenarios...

Left fielders can hit in into their late 30s. Some drop offs can happen.

Ankiel would have caught that ball though. He also would have stroke out with the bases loaded. All for much less money.

by Evilfrog on Oct 12, 2009 8:05 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Allen Craig+Rich Harden+Adrian Beltre > Matt Holliday

.4m + $7M + $7M < $18M+

Hell we could even wedge a Smoltz in there depending on how high the Yankees go.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 12, 2009 8:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

why would we want harden?

i’m tired of pitchers who are always breaking down

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Oct 12, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because he is a very good pitcher

Would probably be good for a 3.50 ERA and 150 innings. He could also be had cheaper than his actual value.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 12, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i seriously doubt that

Smoltz will be 43, and was breaking down at the end of the year after only throwing 80 innings this season. Anything we’d get from him would have to be considered a bouns, not a plan.

it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie

by SleepyCA on Oct 12, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The two are not mutually exclusive,

and considering what they offer (excellent talent, questionable durability) they are complimentary.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 12, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the bullpen would be taxed

we’d need to improve that. if the cubs don’t offer harden, i’m leery. that he pitched in oakland taints my injury concerns.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Oct 13, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plenty of pitchers have left Oakland to be durable elsewhere.

As for the bullpen, it would probably be taxed more based on usage patterns. We’ll always have Paris…er, Memphis.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 14, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

memphis

is a moveable feast.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Oct 14, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

SHEETS

Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 12, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think Beltre and Harden will both get much more than $7m

$7m for RICH HARDEN? Seriously? I would be surprised if he doesn’t make close to double that, on maybe a 2-yr deal (I’d think someone’ll probably bite for something like 2yr/$25m).

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Oct 13, 2009 5:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

harden had a bit of an off year in 2009.

and the market for damaged-goods talent is ridiculous next year: harden, webb (though the d-backs now say they’ll take his option up), duscherer, bedard, penny, smoltz, and i know i’m missing one or two. i just think this is a season where the market could go anywhere. i’d be afraid of getting locked out of the market if i were harden.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Oct 13, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Manny Ramirez to the Dodgers

Oh, wait, that actually worked . . .

Jason Bay to the Red Sox

Oh, crap, that worked too . . .

I’m pretty sure for any two examples of LF failures, you can come up with LF success stories.

I’d still argue that Holliday is the whole reason we were even in the playoffs. Our offense looked like they were asleep until he came along.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Oct 12, 2009 8:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

it looked dead the last 6 weeks with him

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Oct 12, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he had a .901 OPS in september

It’s not as impressive as his numbers in the two prior months, but I don’t think we should put the Cardinals offensive woes on him.

by Evilfrog on Oct 12, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Albert's OPS was good too

and yet, here we are

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Oct 12, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

fyi -

cardinals sept./oct. team wOBA – .335 (10th in MLB)
aug. team wOBA – .328 (17th in MLB)

August was successful mostly because of a) absolute lockdown pitching – both in relief and starting; and b) tremendous luck – i recall an awful lot of games where we came up with just the right hits in just the right spots to win by one run.

August was not a month of offensive juggernautage.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Oct 12, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jason Bay is not a great player

And Manny’s deal so far hasn’t worked out. He’s been worth 2.6 WAR this year while being paid 20 something million.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 12, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

too lazy to check . . .

doesn’t that make him the third-most valuable member of the dodgers OF?

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Oct 12, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm almost 100% sure that's not the case

But I’m too lazy to check also. Any takers?

by vivaelpujols on Oct 12, 2009 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was gonna say something like "Andre Ethier is the lefty version of Jayson Werth"

but UZR likes Werth and hates Ethier. UZR is all I have to go on with those guys, but that’s something.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Oct 13, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seemingly all of the Dodgers lineup is, outside of Manny and mayber Furcal

that team is really, really well put together.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Oct 13, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They also have Matt Kemp

but I’m beginning to think Kemp is less underrated now. Not because he’s gotten worse, but people seem to be catching on to him being good.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Oct 14, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah Manny really hasn't been that good

and I don’t think he will be, going forward, either. He’s not been an elite player for a little while now.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Oct 13, 2009 5:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

except, you know, a year ago.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Oct 13, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He also missed 50 games

which isn’t helping his UZR any, but it sure hurt his batting numbers. I would guess if you add back the 50 games he missed at average Manny production he’d have been worth around 4 WAR for the season, which isn’t great, but it’s pretty good for a 38 year old outfielder.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 13, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right, but still probably below his contract

He’s making 25 million this year right?

by vivaelpujols on Oct 13, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, no

$15M of it was deferred and will be paid in $5M installments on June 30th, 2010, 2011, and 2012. Plus, they didn’t have to pay him for the 50 games that he missed, so they only had to pay him around $7.5M in this calendar year.

They will still owe him the rest of that money, but it is deferred without interest until the dates that it is to be paid. Next year, if he doesn’t opt out, he’ll get $5M and then $15M will be paid in 2 installments of $3,333,333 on June 30th 2011, 2012, and a $8,333,333 installment in 2013. Also deferred without interest. So he got the money he wanted, he’ll just have to wait to get it and he’s not earning any money on it.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 13, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, but they're still paying him more than he's worth.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 14, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do 38 year old

Hall of Famers EVER get paid what they’re worth? The current market simply doesn’t allow that to happen with the way it is constructed.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 14, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For the same reason that, I suspect, he was able to kill the ball last year, at Age 37...

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 14, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those were trades...

unless you’re talking about the Manny contract, which was pretty damn bad since it made him one of the highest paid players in the league during a season where he spent a large number of games suspended for steroids.

Bay is going to be signing a long-term deal to play LF this offseason as well. I wonder if a few years from now it will be Bay/Holliday on long term and terrible deals instead of Soriano/Lee.

What’s Matt Murton up to these days?

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 12, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you could almost argue the suspension helped the dodgers though

since they only had to pay him for 111 games. It saved them something like $7M, and they still get his bat in the lineup for the playoffs…

it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie

by SleepyCA on Oct 12, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't give the Ricketts any ideas!

A little testosterone-spiked gatorade could clean those books up in a hurry.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Oct 12, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Jason Bay comparison is a false one.

The Red Sox traded for a year and a half of his services during his Age 29 and 30 seasons. Bay was a tremendous value at his low salary due to a smart extension the Pirates signed him to back when he broke out as a good hitter. He is a free agent this November, and, in fact, also fits into this comparison. He was worth $15.3 million this year, according to WAR, while being paid $7.5 million.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 13, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or Manny Ramirez to the Red Sox, for that matter

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 13, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It'd make more sense to sign Holliday to a big money, long-term deal,

if we had reason to suspect that he was on HGH and steroids and there weren’t draconian penalties for being on said PEDs.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 13, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you're asking that steriods not be a factor

then we really arge in the dark ages. Before steroids, there weren’t really any big-money multi-year deals, and we’re too short into the current enforcement regime to really be able to analyze any of the deals.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 13, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if holliday won't sign at a discount,

my grand off-season plan is to pick up mike cameron as part-time LF, Rasmus-continues-to-screw-the-pooch-v.-LHP insurance, and Ludwick-gets-injured-or-continues-to-hit-league-averageish insurance.

If he’s needed elsewhere in the outfield, you plug craig or mather in as your starting LF, and move cameron where needed. he’s a RH OF who can still field CF but who has the bat to play elsewhere in the outfield respectably.

I don’t think cameron should cost too much and he’s a type B free agent. I’d rather have him as a type B for cameron money than Jason Bay as a type A at Bay money, honestly. the age is a bit of a caution, but he’s probably a 2-3y contract.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Oct 12, 2009 8:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Rasmus is fine against lefties.

His season line was held down by a ridiculously low BABIP, and he proved he can hit them in the playoffs.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 12, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm inclined to agree, but i still think cameron is an awfully nice pickup.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Oct 12, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Cameron should be pretty undervalued.

On the other hand, I do worry that any pickup will block Mather/Craig/Rasmus from getting their full playing time.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 12, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I would really like to see our FO take an undervalued route this offseason. That means guys like R.J. Swindle, Mike Cameron, Rich Harden, John Smoltz, etc.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 12, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We don't really have a spot for RJ,

but I’d enjoy having him.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 12, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i thought he reuped for 2 more seasons?

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Oct 12, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2011 option

$2mm guaranteed if he appears in 45 games in 2010 unless he spends time on DL due to left arm or shoulder, then 2011 is a club option with $1 mm buyout

by ubeddie on Oct 12, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

$2M option...

$1M buyout? That seems odd.

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Oct 14, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cot's Contracts is the source

great website for contract data. Here is the verbatim for Miller’s extension

2 years/$4M (2009-10), plus 2011 option
 - signed re-worked extension with St. Louis 9/1/09, replacing 1 year/$0.5M deal for 2009
 - 09:$2M, 10:$2M, 11:$2M option
 - extension guarantees all 2009 performance bonuses based on games included in original 2009 contract signed 12/08
 - 2009 performance bonuses: $0.2M each for 40, 45, 50, 55 games; $0.225M each for 60, 65 games; $0.23M for 70 games
 - 2011 option guaranteed with 45 games in 2010
 - 2011 option becomes a club option with $1M buyout if Miller pitches in 45 games in 2010 but spends time on the disabled list in 2010 with a left arm or shoulder injury

by ubeddie on Oct 14, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believed ya...

and I understand the thinking…you only do the buyout if he totally tanks/gets injured. It’s just unusual to see a buyout that is half of the option.

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Oct 14, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd love him in the bullpen if he was willing

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 13, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Milton!

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Oct 12, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Burrell!

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Oct 12, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pat Burrell

played league average defense in left this year.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Oct 13, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope that's a joke

He played one game in LF and didn’t field a ball….

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 13, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He wasn't given a chance!

he did the best he could given his situation. What would an above average fielder have done?

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Oct 13, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Probably the exact same thing....

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 13, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pat Burrell for the GG!

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 14, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not keen on Burrell

if we add one DH-who-can-just-about-catch-a-ball-in-the-OF this year, it should be Bobby Abreu – he’s a better fielder than Burrell and his OBP in the #2 spot would be pretty juicy with Pujols on deck.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Oct 13, 2009 5:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was high on Swindle in the pre-season this year

Think the Phillies got him, didn’t they? However, I thought he was getting absolutely tattooed. Did he turn it around or did they just dump him in AAA?

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Oct 13, 2009 5:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bring me Josh Willingham!

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 13, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rasmus hit

weak ground balls and pop ups off of Left handers for most of the year. He also looked lost many of times.

However; his late season ABs against them were much improved. And he looked great against some though ones when the rest of the team looked lost.

I think he’ll be fine next year.

by Evilfrog on Oct 12, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um...kay?

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 12, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

his BABIP

was low because he wasn’t hitting the ball hard. Not luck.

by Evilfrog on Oct 12, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

first off, he only got 115 PA's v. LHP. even if you're watching every game, that's

a ridiculously SSS.

second, your perceptions are wrong.
preASB v. lhp – .183/.258/.250
postASB v. lhp – .130/.167/.261

he didn’t particularly hit lefties better later in the season. that’s why you shouldn’t rely on anecdotal perceptions like “he was grounding out weakly early on” without looking for support.

unfortunately, i don’t know of anywhere that does double split and covers batted ball info by pitcher handedness. based on his quite reasonable minor league numbers, i think it’s premature to say he struggles v. LHP.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Oct 13, 2009 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

baseballmusings does splits, but not babip

for instance, Colby had a .211/.250/.368 line vs LHP in Sep/Oct, though it was just 20 PA. link

And he was 1 for 20 vs LHP in august, yikes! And his one hit was a home run, lol.

.050/.095/.200

it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie

by SleepyCA on Oct 13, 2009 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

baseball reference does BABIP -- i'm looking for line drive rate, GB rate,

etc., by handedness of pitcher.

rasmus’s babip v. lhp was .184.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Oct 13, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like you

have looked for support in this before. But was unable to find LD%, BG rate, etc.. splits against left handed pitchers. So until that information because available I’m going to have to rely on my memory of “he doesn’t look comfortable out there” “He isn’t making good contact” and “wow, he is hitting the ball really good but has nothing to show for it.”

I would love to have numbers to back me up on this. So people already see me as a Rasmus hater so making any kind of argument that can’t be disputed against him isn’t helping.

by Evilfrog on Oct 13, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I posted this already in the main thread a couple of days

His LD rate is very low against lefties, but it’s in a ridiculously small sample size.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 13, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

remind me where you found it. i can never find those splits.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Oct 13, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I calculated them myself using Pitch f/x data

I’ll repost them in a little bit when I get back on my computadora!

by vivaelpujols on Oct 13, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not premature to say that he struggles v. LHP

he has struggled against LHP. This may not continue in the future, but the team would be remiss to not have a fourth, right handed outfielder next season in case this season’s trend doesn’t turn around.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 13, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that was more or less what i was trying to say.

saying "it’s not clear whether rasmus’s difficulty against LHP is a statistical anomaly or a continuing problem; it’s premature to come down on the “continuing problem” side." would have captured my opinion better.

and i will point out the conversation started b/c i was suggesting we get cameron, in part, as a RH OF who could play CF against LHP if razzle’s troubles persist.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Oct 13, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

also, 10 internet points for "remiss."

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Oct 13, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's struggled against lefties in the majors

In the minors he had a .826 OPS (400+ AB) against lefties versus a .860 OPS (1100+ AB) versus righties

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Oct 13, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How well do lefty/righty splits compare between levels?

I"m not being sarcastic here, I’m seriously asking, as my instinct is to say that there is a bigger gap between the lefty pitching between AAA and MLB than there is with the righty pitching.

Regardless, it’s hardly an uncommon phenomenon for players to be awesome in AAA and then struggle with parts of their game in the NL. I’m not saying Colby will be horrible against lefties going forward, but I’m also not saying that we should necessarily expect him to improve markedly in the short term.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 13, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We DEFIINITELY shouldn't expect him to hit like he did against them this year

The sample size is laughable. Given that we know he is a major league player, we should expect him to regress heavily to the major league average of lefty vs. lefty.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 14, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which would still mean that we should get someone to spell him

á la Mike Cameron.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 14, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm all for Cameron

But only if he’d be a full time player. I don’t want to spend 8 million on a platoon partner.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 14, 2009 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Clearly, I'm not attached to Cameron, in particular.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 14, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rasmus and maintaining his playing weight

will be more of a battle than Colby against LHP next year. He should win both battles easily, starting 150 games in CF.

by ubeddie on Oct 12, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gotta know the batted ball data...

before I give a crap about his BABIP. Was he rolling over the ball and grounding out to first/second 50%+ of the time and hitting popups/flyballs another 40%…or was his LD% of the +20% variety?

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Oct 14, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He has an extremely low BABIP,

and his minors line against lefties was good. I would guess that the relationship between his MLB BABIP and the garbled translation of his minors line to the majors is much stronger than the relationship between Frog’s assertions about Colby’s batted ball profile and reality.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 14, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His splits are pretty even this year, too

it’s just that he’s horrible against both.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 14, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The sound of dynamite.

LD 13.6%
GB 43.2%
FB 43.2%

BB 7%
K 22.4%

xBABIP (expected BABIP: .313 (per THT.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 14, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now it means...

something. That’s still a pretty low LD rate…surprised it churns out a .313 expected BABIP.

Side note…they should separate fly-balls and pop-ups.

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Oct 15, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I did during my calculations- he actually didn't pop up much at all against lefties this season.

The reason his xBABIP is so high is his high GB%, and it would be higher if I included his speed score (he was the team’s best baserunner this season, and among the league leaders, worth over four runs almost entirely on his ability to go first to third or make it home from second on sac flies).

You can also see the small sample size when you include the playoffs, which boosts his LD% by three points in only 5 ABs.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 15, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

where did those numbers come from, btw?

FWIW, the k% is a bit off from what B-R says (and it’s hard to get 13.6% with a denominator of 76 or 79), so if you ran them yourself, you might be missing some PA’s in your calculations. Probably doesn’t make much difference, but it might.

Anyway, according to B-R, ignoring the l/r split, colby was well above average (~.040 points) in BABIP on GB’s, (being 5/9 on bunts probably helped) as well as on line drives. OTOH, he was awful on fly balls- 11 for 153 on fly ball hits that weren’t home runs, or like .072 overall, vs a .146 for the league.

it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie

by SleepyCA on Oct 15, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fangraphs, I calculated the % myself, so the 13.6 is rounded, i think.

I think the denominator was 86.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 15, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh, sweet

where on fangraphs do they do L/R splits for balls in play? I didn’t know you could get that.

it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie

by SleepyCA on Oct 15, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

which should translate too

Him getting under a lot of fly balls and hitting them pretty high. I can see why Tony “doesn’t” want him to hit home runs. (Doesn’t want him to try and get under balls in hopes that they go out. I doubt if he minds the home runs themselves.)

As far as the GBs go, when you are as fast and smooth as Colby. You’re bond to burn a fire on the infield when running out hits to 3rd.

by Evilfrog on Oct 18, 2009 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, he hits a large number of fly balls that are "fliners".

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 18, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know this has probably been covered ad naseum

But I have no problems with untuckers. My understanding is that the purported reason is to honor Cameron’s dad. I am not aware that that an unspoken reason is to show off the other team/fans. I guess I would give folks the benefit of the doubt.
Our own Yadi kisses his necklace in remembrance of his dad. Sure, it’s not annoying like untucking, but somehow admire them for their reasons.
Ok. Please flame me now.
OTOH, sending sausage goons after catchers is just not cool. Power to Randall Simon.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Oct 15, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

because that is total BS.

and you’re a total loser for believing what they tell you.

/flame ;)

it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie

by SleepyCA on Oct 15, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know I am but what are you?

/lame flame-retort

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Oct 19, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's a plan

worth looking hard at.

5 OF’s: lud, raz, cameron, craig, mather (could also play center, IMO. Hell of an athlete.)
IF: apu, schu, boog, freeze, lugo, +1 (preferably lefty, vet)
C: yadi + 1
Rotation: carp, waino, ?, lohse, garcia (?=lackey?)
Bullpen, including smoltzy

of course this assumes a 12-man staff, so I don’t know. but should leave us with some dry gunpowder or whatever.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Oct 13, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cameron is my absolute no.1 mancrush this year

been beating his drum (TWSS) for a while now. I think he’ll probably be a better bet than Holliday (fewer years & less money = much less risk, and he hasn’t been that much less valuable than Holliday for the last few years), and he gives us more flexibility (we really need a RH bat who can play CF sometimes) and probably the best defensive outfield in the league.

Also, signing Cameron and letting DeRo/Holliday walk allows us to reap a massive draft bounty of one first rounder (for Holliday) and three supplemental picks (Pineiro/DeRo/Holliday), and leaves us ~$15m (minimum) to spend on adding a high-end SP and someone good to pitch from the pen.

Of course, I’d be happy too if we signed Holliday fairly cheaply (probably not going to happen), kept hold of Smoltz (two of my all-time favourite non-Cardinals before this year) and added someone like Calero to be a set-up guy. That’d work too. But from a purely value-orientated standpoint, NOT signing Holliday is perhaps the best route to take (unless he’s prepared to take a solid discount)….

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Oct 13, 2009 5:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice review bgh

back loaded contract question.
I realize the group think behind back loading free agents contracts (someone else’s problem, inflation/time value of money, bragging rights for agents), but does anyone recall a front loaded contract of more than two years for a free agent?

I would think this would make sense for some of the 30 yr and older free agents when dealing with four plus year contracts. Players don’t tend to put up better seasons in when they are say 36 than when they are 32. From a NL owners’ point of view, wouldn’t it make more sense to try to match expenses (expanding payroll for playoff run) with revenue (more fans in the stands) vs having albatross contracts around when the team needs to rebuild?

by ubeddie on Oct 12, 2009 11:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i've always wondered this too

it makes more sense for a player to be paid more when he’s the most productive, not when he’s the least productive.

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Oct 12, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A-Rod

Alex Rodriguez monster contract is front-loaded. However, the homerun milestone bonuses might make it less front-loaded than it appears.

Alex Rodriguez 3b
10 years/$275M (2008-17)

    * 10 years/$275M (2008-17)
          o re-signed by Yankees as a free agent 12/13/07
          o $10M signing bonus ($2M paid upon approval, $1M paid each Jan. 15, 2009-2013, $3M paid Jan. 15, 2014)
          o 08:$27M, 09:$32M, 10:$32M, 11:$31M, 12:$29M, 13:$28M, 14:$25M, 15:$21M, 16:$20M, 17:$20M
          o $30M marketing agreement based on home run milestones ($6M each for reaching 660, 714, 755 and tying and breaking major league HR record)
          o no-trade protection
          o perks: may purchase 4 best available season tickets for 2008, 4 Legends Suite or comparable season tickets for 2009-17
          o Texas obligated to fund $9M as part of deferred compensation provision in previous contract (to be paid with interest in $3M increments in 2008, 2009 & 2010)

by DJ87 on Oct 15, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course, incentives that guarantee that the player gives you value

aren’t really all that bad, aside from the budget uncertainty.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 15, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, same here, it makes more sense to me

I guess at the volumes of money we’re talking (10s of millions) the value of having that money in your pocket and being able to invest it in the meantime (i.e. backloading) trumps all other concerns, but I wonder if the current economic climate might change that situation.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Oct 13, 2009 5:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But then again, you are still trading present flexibility for future flexibility

namely, it’s a lot easier to trade a superstar at the end of his contract if that superstar isn’t wildly overpaid.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 15, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Example of why this doesn't work

Two different contracts, both 4$41M (Kyle Lohse’s contract):

  1. 7M, 9M, 11M, 14M
  2. 14M, 11M, 9M, 7M

In the case of #1, by TVM, the club is making enough money on the invested portion of the money saved in the first two years of the contract to literally PAY for the fourth year all by itself and parts of the third year as well, if you adjust for inflation. A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow.

I think as Cardinals fans we get tricked into the logic of front loaded contracts because the payroll for the team itself doesn’t increase with inflation. Cardinal payrolls have been between $85M and $100M since DeWitt and his group took over the club, so we don’t look at the payroll obligations in a Time Value of Money sense, because we can reasonably estimate payroll every year.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 13, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, the value of wins goes up with inflation, too,

so, even though the salary is higher than the year before or two years before and the WAR is roughly the same or a bit lower, you still might be getting comparable value.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 13, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Adjust the contract for the frontloading

Instead of the team being the investment manager for the players contract, the responsibility falls onto the player and the total contract value is adjusted for the front loading. I don’t agree with your statement that a club can make $14M within two years on a base of $9M though.

the club is making enough money on the invested portion of the money saved in the first two years of the contract to literally PAY for the fourth year all by itself

Using 10% return, I come up with a net present value of $33.2 mm in case #1 and $35.0 mm in case #2. Decrease the salary by $500k for each year on the front loaded contract and the PV is about equal.

by ubeddie on Oct 13, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're forgetting inflation

$14M four years from now isn’t the same as $14M now. It’s worth less, probably around 5% less than it was four years ago. It won’t be enough to pay for the fourth year, but if you add in the savings to payroll, the team can save around 15% of that contract by backloading it, which is enough for a signing bonus for a first round draft pick or Latin American player, and so on.

Every little bit helps….

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 13, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

I also didn’t get into tax consequences from both parties points of view. 15% savings ($6M on $41M contract) seems high on the savings side though. The investment rate + inflation adjustment for the savings need to be greater than 25%.

Going back to the back premise though, if the present value of the contract is the same under both scenarios (taking investment return, inflation, taxes into consideration), I believe a team would be better off from a flexibility and competitiveness standpoint to front load the contract when signing a 32 yr old player to a 4 year deal. Selling the lower total contract value to the agent might be problematic.

Trying to unload a 36 yr old player making $14M is much harder than unloading the same player making $6.5M Also, the percent of payroll dedicated to the 36 yr old is much less under the front loading scenario.

by ubeddie on Oct 13, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

But the other issue here is that most of the contracts that we’re talking about have some sort of no-trade clause in them anyway and the only teams that would be more enticed by a crappy pitcher on a lower contract would be teams who can afford a payroll hit for one season only — i.e. teams that aren’t very successful. So the player probably isn’t going there anyway.

I’m just pretty sure that it’s not going to make much of a difference either way.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 14, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eat salary

When you are trying to trade a 36 year old player in the last year of their back-loaded contract, you can always pay a portion of the salary to the other team (which you would have already paid to the player in a front-loaded contract).

In the NBA it makes sense to front-load for this reason, because you can only kick in $3mil with any trade, but in baseball, you can pay as much as you want.

So, I think that hurts your trade flexibility argument. It doesn’t affect your payroll flexibility argument.

by djsmokyc on Oct 20, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this of course, also depends on whether or not you can afford to eat the salary

You’re probably best off running payroll as near as possible to maximum every year that you can, unless you’re trying to save up a cushion.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 20, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Some other scenarios for corner outfielders...
  1. Brian Giles — very similar pedigree to Holliday albeit from the other side of the plate, and was worth better than 4.5 WAR in 5 of his last 7 seasons, which were his age 31 thru 38 years.
  2. Magglio Ordonez — probably not as good as Holliday, he would represent the low bar on Holliday’s production chart, and he hasn’t aged all that well either. Worth 8.9 WAR in 2007, he’s only been above 3 WAR one other time in the past 7 seasons. Injuries have obviously played a role here…
  3. Bobby Abreu — UZR likes Holliday better, but I think Abreu would benefit from a move to LF with his weak arm and speed. Holliday has better power numbers than Abreu, and gets on base at about the same rate. Showed a steady decline in WAR from age 29 through age 35, from a peak of 6.3 declining to 3.0.
  4. Luis Gonzalez — Was a pretty average player until he hit 30 years old, then performed like a superstar for 5 seasons before leveling off again. I know, steroids may have played a factor here, but other than his outlier season of 2001 when he hit 57 homers, his numbers look pretty comparable to Holliday’s over that span, so there’s no reason to think that Holliday couldn’t average at least a 136 OPS+ over that time period — which would make him more than worth a 6Y$100M contract.

Just throwing these out there as good and bad examples of corner outfielders compared in a similar age range to Holliday who also have similar skills and rate stats at around that age. I think bgh presented two worst case scenarios, but I think the players here are much better representations of what we might expect from Holliday over the next 6 years. I would venture to say he’d probably be pretty similar to Brian Giles if I had to pick one.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 13, 2009 12:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Historical Comparisons

I need to get my copy of the 09 Baseball Prospectus back for Holliday’s historical comps and run a comparison. I tried to look at players who play a corner OF position and got a deal worth 6 or more years. Obviously, there aren’t too many of those types of deals. These are worst-case scenarios, I suppose, but Carlos Lee has performed about what where one would expect, maybe higher, and still is way overpaid. That deal was signed in a different climate, to be sure, but it shows the danger of overpaying, in both dollars and years. Matt Holliday has been a great player, better than either Soriano or Lee during his peak years in Colorado. But, that doesn’t mean that regression in production won’t accompany his increase in age. The other aspect of this analysis is: Outside of Coors, is Holliday a 6-to-7-WAR player or a 4-to-6-WAR player?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 13, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He was a 5.6 WAR player this year

and he had a horrible first two months, and played in the worst hitters park in the American League for 2/3 of the season, so I would guess that he’s a 6 WAR player going forward playing home games at Busch. He’s also probably hitting his prime years, judging by other outfielders of the same age and skill set, so it’s probably a good bet that he’ll have at least three or four 6 WAR or better seasons in the next 6 years, if healthy.

My analysis looked at similar players and their comparable seasons age wise to what we would get with Holliday if we signed him to a 6 year deal. You have to agree that if we got similar production to what Giles or Gonzalez generated over those 6 years and it’s pretty much a slam dunk signing.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 13, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Park Factors

At least according to ESPN’s Park Factors, Busch III (0.736) was more suppressive of HRs in 2009 than Oakland (0.927), more suppressive of runs, 0.919 at Busch to 0.974 at Oakland. Of course, this could be proof positive that Holliday will rake in St. Louis, since it is the opposite extreme of Coors on the NL park spectrum. I am still a bit reticent, obviously. His ISO was 50 points lower than his highs in Colorado.

Holliday is entering his Age 30 season, so we’ll look at six seasons’ worth of WAR (God help us if the contract is longer than 6 years).

Giles
Age 30: —
Age 31: 7.5 WAR
Age 32: 4.9 WAR
Age 33: 5.1 WAR
Age 34: 5.7 WAR
Age 35: 3.3 WAR

Abreu
Age 30: 5.8 WAR
Age 31: 4.3 WAR
Age 32: 3.5 WAR
Age 33: 3.0 WAR
Age 34: 1.2 WAR
Age 35: 2.6 WAR

Gonzalez
Age 30: -
Age 31: -

Age 32: -
Age 33: -

Age 34: 5.3 WAR
Age 35: 4.4 WAR

Magglio Ordonez
Age 30: 0.5 WAR
Age 31: 1.7 WAR
Age 32: 2.4 WAR
Age 33: 8.9 WAR
Age 34: 3.1 WAR
Age 35: 2.1 WAR

This is just for everyone who didn’t bother following your links.

I don’t see much there to make me certain that Holliday will be a 5-to-6-WAR player for the majority of a six-year (or five-year) contract. But, I suppose that just depends on who you choose. If you choose Giles’ as the most likely path, then you’re looking at what, solid 4-to-5 WAR production after the early 30s falloff? Don’t get me wrong, 5 WAR would be a great value at a $17MM salary. However, he could follow the Abreu path, too, and fall into the 2-to-3 WAR range. What we need to look at are his projections and Historical Comparisons….

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 13, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For WAR,

I used www.fangraphs.com.

For age, I used www.baseball-reference.com.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 13, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Holliday's work ethic

is much more in line with that of Brian Giles than it is of Magglio Ordonez. He works out at Boras’ athletic compound each offseason trying to maintain flexibility and get stronger, and his body type is pretty similar to Giles’ as well, even though I think he’s a more talented player than Giles was at age 29. He hasn’t been banged up like Magglio was for most of his prime, so I guess I just don’t think he’s going to regress to that level either — Ordonez was probably one of the biggest busts in the middle of this decade, but nobody really talks about it.

He could hit a wall like Abreu, but that would mean a pretty drastic decline in power numbers from where he’s at currently, and Abreu was never the power hitter than Holliday is at any point in his career.

I guess I would say that with his defensive prowess, slugging, and on-base ability, he’s a pretty sure bet to be worth at least an average of 5 WAR per season over a 6 year contract, but I’ll wait and see what you come up with when you get looking into it farther.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 13, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I meant this as a cautionary tale, really.

And I stil do. I am going to post a second part. But, projecting what Holliday will be worth will help us gauge the length and amount of his contract. I’m for signing Holliday, even overpaying a little for him, but not for overpaying a lot in either years or dollars. And that’s what I was hoping to feel out from folks. At what length and at what salary does the contract turn from good to potential albatross. Especially, when coupled with the Pujols extension.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 14, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My take on that then:

I think that any contract that pays him an AAV of $18M or less per season and is less than 7 years is ok. Any more than that, I think we run the risk of an albatross at some point.

This is also assuming a Pujols extension of around $25M per season kicking in around 2012 and the ownership group making a pledge to increase payroll to make a run at championships over a 5-6 year period. I don’t think they would entertain signing Holliday if they were not interested in winning titles.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 14, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd Just as Soon...

…give Joey Bombs a try before locking up any of these guys. Or resign DeRosa or someone for 2b and put Skip in LF.

:=8/

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Oct 15, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ALLEN CRAIG

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 15, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Speed vs. Power

We should sign DeRosa, he plays hard, has a little power, and will recover just as wainwright did. I said that to say this:

I think it would be interesting to have Chone Figgins at 3B and SS. He’s fast with ~40 stolen bases, hits pretty consistently, and has good OBP. We could play DeRosa in LF and leave ourselves lots of room to make upgrades in the pen and the SP we are likely to need.

We wouldn’t be a home run team but we would be a tough line up. Rotating in Freese and Craig would give us lots of looks, Figgins versatility would allow LaRussa to make hair-brained subs all he wanted as 5 or 6 players can play multiple positions.

by jimitoofast on Oct 13, 2009 3:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think Figgins would run much

if he played for the Cardinals, as currently constructed. Tony Womack ran all the time before getting here, then didn’t run at all with the Cardinals. LaRussa just doesn’t really like the running game for some reason, maybe it’s because he’s waiting for someone as good at stealing bases as Rickey Henderson was, maybe he’s bought into the station-to-station baseball more than other managers.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 13, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

they're fixin' to beat that out of Colby, aren't they

sadface….

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Oct 13, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tony seems to like the hit and run a whole, WHOLE lot more than the straight steal

I also think he’s loathe to have someone running in front of Pujols, who would just open up first anyway.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 13, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which is probably a smart play

but then why isn’t he putting Rasmus or Ryan in front of Molina and running to stay out of the double play? Why don’t the Cardinals run more with players at the bottom of the order, where there’s been very little power over the last couple of seasons?

I guess I don’t like the hit and run as much as the straight steal because too many more things can go wrong. I also think that most of the steals Albert gets come from him running on his own.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 13, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I somewhat agree

though I think a lot of it depends on your personnel. If you’re got Pacido Polanco batting, going with the HnR probably makes more sense than a straight steal, because you can be somewhat certain that he’s going to make contact. With Rick Ankiel batting, perhaps it’s best to let him focus on actually getting a pitch to hit and thinking through his AB, rather than risk the strike ’em out, throw ’em out play.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 13, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

would it make sense then to put rasmus or ryan in leadoff and skippy

in the 2 slot? skippy has the contact rate and the obp to make that work (without the slowness of yadi).

you might look at the success of ryan in the 9 slot, where I think he makes a ton of sense.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Oct 13, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

makes a lot of sense to me too but...

we have established TLR considers stealing paramount to cheating, still for the sake of completeness:

schu
derosa
pujols
ludwick
rasmus* (steal)
molina
figgins* (steal)
P
ryan (steal)

that is potentially a lot of manufactured runs and a pretty tough line up. Also with the * lefties/switch surrounding molina you force managers to leave in a pitcher that might favor molina (this is just a guess) and with his good walk rate…

by jimitoofast on Oct 13, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This killed me all season.

Put two high-OBP guys in front of Pujols. Granted, we didn’t have very many this year, so this is more difficult to do. But, Skippy isn’t a bad choice at all. DeRosa or whomever in the #2 slot is fine, too. But, why on earth wouldn’t you bat Rasmus #6 in front of Molina and run/hit-and-run more often? You can leverage Molina’s high-contact skills and Rasmus’ speed to their greatest potential as well as minimize the GIDP risk (as you mentioned).

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 13, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's why I was so disappointed in Rasmus...

Probably unfairly. But having a guy with his minor league OBP in the #2 slot would have had an amazing effect on Pujols.

Instead we got someone with Corey Patterson’s minor league OBP. (Actually, that’s being unfair to Corey Patterson).

by DiscoJer on Oct 14, 2009 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Looking at the whole lineup's swing-happy tendancies,

I tend to blame the coaching staff. There was a noticeable difference in the way the Cards and the Dodgers approached their PAs during the NLDS. I think the Dodgers’ approach is more productive. I hope that we see a change in this regard next year.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 14, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am speaking out of my ass w/o the #s

But I think Yanks, Rox, and Phils also approach PAs differently than Cards, i.e. patience/working the count.
Could someone tell me how I could get the #s to compare Cards, Yanks, Rox, Phils, and Dodgers batting approaches. Maybe drop Yanks since AL. I have not been able to find a good source for team data only player data. Thnx.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Oct 15, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fangraphs.

Team comparisons can be found here, along with specific things about approach, such as this frightening table that shows the Cardinals horrible plate discipline with stats such as the second highest swing% in the league, and one of the worst swing percentages at pitches out of the zone (O-swing%).

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 15, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not only were the the third worst team in O-Swing

They were the worst team in O-Contact %, meaning that they are the worst team at making contact on pitches outside the zone. So we swing at the third most and make contact with the least — that’s some pretty horrible plate discipline.

I take this to mean that Hal McRae needs to go.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 15, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Our plate discipline is only markedly ahead of the wretched Giants.

I’m trying to see if McRae’s previous work as a hitting coach (on the Cards and also a while back on the Phillies) was as bad as this season. The data isn’t very complete.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 15, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure it would make much difference

I don’t think you’re going to get enough of a correlation for a hitting coach because of the differential in talent on the teams he’s coached.

It’s a worthy exercise, but I just don’t think you’ll really find any kind of evidence that McRae for sure is the problem.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 15, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah you will

when the players frequently say things like “I didn’t know why my swing was wrong” rather than “we tried this approach and it wasn’t right for me”, there is a strong implication that they’re not getting coached.

it doesn’t have to correlate in terms of numbers. frequency and logic serves the purpose just as well.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Oct 15, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A quote from Ethier
“Of course, you want to get the job done by swinging, but at the same time, don’t be too aggressive and don’t get yourself out,” he said. “Donnie [hitting coach Mattingly] has been preaching to me a lot that once the playoffs start, be patient, get your pitch to hit and see it. Donnie’s voice was in my head the whole time, and I guess it came in handy there.”

This is form the Dodger’s walk off win in Game 2.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Oct 19, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Danke

Egad! Yes the table reminds me of Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody – “Thunderbolt and lightning-very very frightening me”
Some O-Swing%:
Yanks 22.7%
Rox 23.1%
Dodgers 23.4%
Phils 24.5%
Cards 26.8% (ranked #26)

Some contact%:
Yanks 83.4
Dodgers 82.8
Phils 79.9
Cards 79.8 (ranked #19)
Rox 78.6

Absolutely Halloween material.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Oct 15, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Contrast, e.g., w/2006

Cards ranked #7 in contact% and #14 in O-swing%. I also briefly scanned 2004 and 2005. McRae was hired in Dec. 2004, so what happened last year?

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Oct 15, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would Still Rather Adress...

…our pitcing issues, esp closer and 3rd starter. I see Carp and Wainy as #1 and 2, Lohse 4, and Smoltz (if we keep him) 5. We need a 3 because I doubt we resign Jo-El. I don’t see anyone in our minors moore than a #4 or 5, and I’d just as soon not rely on Lohse higher than what he is. Bedard will be available, maybe Webb. If we can’t get a Holiday discount then I say we sink moolah into pitching and find an-udder way to fill LF. Hudson will be available at 2b for those who don’t want DeRosa back, and whammo we got Luddy/Raz/Skip in the of. We need a closer too (Valverde?), unless we go with Franklin again.

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Oct 15, 2009 9:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There is actually quite a few starters on the FA market who would easily be considered #3's

Hudson (Tim), Harden, Myers, Lackey… we should make a play for one of those guys. Lackey’s the most durable, but he’ll also cost the most, and it looks the Angels will probably sign him. Harden and Hudson are both very good, but they come with obvious health issues. Still, they will sign for short term deals and have a ton of upside. I still like Myers the best. Career 4.53 FIP, however that also comes with a 15.5 HR/FB ratio. His career xFIP is much lower.

Assuming we can’t sign Lackey, my preference would be Myers, Harden, Hudson.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 15, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

I think Myers also comes the cheapest because of his off-field and injury issues.

If we’re signing a #3 starter, then we don’t need Smoltz, imo. Why do people get all pissed off when the organization trades away a prospect like Mortenson……and then make posts that state how they’re going to sign free agents to fill all the rotation spots? I’m not speaking about you specifically, VEP, just some others here who always do this type of thing on a consistent basis. If we’re not going to allow Jamie Garcia, Mitchell Boggs, Adam Ottovino, or Lance Lynn to win a spot in the rotation in the future, then we need to trade them for people who can be useful players for the ballclub. PJ Walters, Brad Thompson, and other AAAA starters like them can be fill in guys if injuries happen.

If we’re spending big money this offseason, it damn well better be on offense. You can sign Smoltz for $5M + incentives or another pitcher like Myers on a short term deal for a little more than that and then fill the other rotation spot with one of the minor leaguers I mentioned above. I can think of a lot of position players on the market this offseason that would help this team more marginally on offense than any pitcher will marginally over Lohse, Smoltz, or one of the farm arms. Adrian Beltre would be an upgrade at 3B and probably won’t be prohibitively expensive. Holliday would be the best signing of the offseason for our offense. I don’t have as much faith in David Freese as I do in our minor league pitchers.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 16, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we should try to have 6 starters

I’d like to re-sign Smoltz and sign another FA starter. And I’m pissed that they traded Mortensen. But, that’s only because I don’t want to be in a position where we absolutely have to have a full, healthy season from each of Smoltz and Carpenter. I’d like some flexibility with the rotation, and if that means a farmhand starts the year in Memphis, that’s fine by me. (I’d like to see Boggs in the ’pen on Opening Day with his fastball/slider combo.)

I disagree on Freese. I have more faith in David Freese over the course of the entire season than I do in Garcia or Lynn lasting all year in the rotation. This takes into account injury and production.

As a complete aside, last Hot Stove, I was in favor of K-Mac shifting to the rotation, but now, with his ‘09 season, I am nowhere near as confident in this shift. Do you guys think this is a possibility, or it’s even worth trying?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 16, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it's worth trying

I think he needs to focus on being a good middle innings reliever, and I also think all the talk about him starting may be one reason why he struggled so much this year. He didn’t come into camp with a defined role because of all the RHRP that we had in camp this year, and all the questions in the rotation.

I’m high on Garcia and Boggs. I don’t like the idea of Boggs in the bullpen to start the year because that probably means that Sanchez didn’t get a shot at the bullpen and he most definitely should get a chance there in ST. Boggs can be a #5 starter, Garcia can be at least that good or better (I’m going with the latter). I think priority #1 is to sign Matt Holliday, because I bet he stays in the National League and I don’t want him going to the Pond Scum, and that is his likely destination if he doesn’t sign with the Cardinals. #2 is to sign one starting pitcher who has the upside of a #3 starter but doesn’t necessarily make #3 starter money. That could be Smoltz, Myers, Harden, etc. We’re already paying Lohse #3 money and I don’t think investing even more money in the rotation helps our team as much as investing some money in the offense.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 16, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Holliday's Value

Using Pecotas Projections for Holliday, and adding a premium for his over performance from this years estimate, I give Holliday a 4.6, 4.7, 3.6, 2.7 and 2.1 WAR going out 5 years.

Without adjusting for inflation that comes to about an $80 million contract for 5 years. $16 million per year is not bad at all. I wonder if people drop him from the $100 million range because he isnt percieved as a huge power threat. He’s kind of in that 2nd tier.

Will the Cards put that much up for him? Its probably worth it if you ask me, and if they get into a bidding war with someone who is willing to go over $80 million, they can add incentives that could push it up to the $90 million range over the life of the contract.

by backtocali on Oct 16, 2009 11:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

timing

he might be 2nd tier, but he’s #1 free agent this year

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Oct 16, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When we traded for him, I was hoping for that exact contract (but not getting my hopes too far up).

Now, I don’t think that is a possibility with the way he hit after the trade.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 16, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does PECOTA project defense?

Honest question, because I don’t know if it does. I’m going to assume it doesn’t though

He’s worth probably half a win on defense as well if you use his average UZR value over the past 4 seasons, so that would push his value close to $100M over the save 5 years, meaning a 6Y$100M deal would look pretty good too.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 16, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure

But Pecota uses WARP, not WAR. I dont know what the differences are between FanGraphs and Baseball Prospectus.

One thing I have noticed is that a players WARP is sometimes more than his WAR, where the differences comes from I’m not sure. Oddly though, in this case that is not true, Holliday had a 4.6 WARP vs 5.6 WAR.

To be honest I dont know what to make of it.

by backtocali on Oct 16, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would just not use PECOTA right now

Their linear weights even with EQA are most likely wrong (they undervalue the walk, something Holliday does well), they use glorified range factor to value defense and they have a messed up replacement level.

I think we could manage to do our own projection using a simple Marcel better than PECOTA.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 16, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Marcel batting and fielding seperately

Than apply the appropriate playing time and positional adjustments. You could also look at the Fans Scouting Report to complement UZR.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 16, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Something else to think about

Look at the 2011 free agents. There aren’t any good outfielders, unless i saw an incomplete list. Holiday might be worth more this year due to a scarcity next year.

by Harknights on Oct 16, 2009 6:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yes, it's a pretty week class. he's easily the best of the bunch

which makes me think we should let everyone else go nuts on bidding for his services. dude’s going to get paid, big time. and i don’t think the Cards should be the ones writing the checks.

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Oct 16, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

probably so

let’s see, though.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Oct 17, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but he's not just the "best of the free agent class"

he’s probably “the best there is” in LF, period, and he’s 29, 30 next season. Those are the guys you should spend the big money on. He’s not quite a Pujols, lincecum, utley, mauer, etc, but he’s the best overall player there is at his position, and that has huge value.

God I hate that kyle lohse contract, for this same reason. He’s a perfect example of the type of players you don’t give big money to.

it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie

by SleepyCA on Oct 17, 2009 4:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

not a good idea. Still, I tend to think the price for having Dave Duncan as the pitching coach is that you go sign the guys he says he wants. I freaked when Pinerio inked his two year deal at Duncan’s behest… thought it was the dumbest idea ever. Yet they showed to some extent they know who they can make work.

If not for freak injuries, I bet Lohse could’ve repeated his 3 WAR 2008 season.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Oct 17, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can we wait to see what Lohse's numbers look like when he is healthy

before we start hating the contract. He was hurt this year. Let’s at least let him get a clean year in to make a call one way or the other.

Just win

by The Duke on Oct 18, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no, i think we can hate it now.

He’ll have to (almost) equal his career year in all three of the next three years to have earned his contract.

it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie

by SleepyCA on Oct 18, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hated it...

when he was healthy in November of 2008. He got $8M too much.

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Oct 19, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Me too

When you paid the guy 1 year, 4 mil (guesstimate) half a year earlier, in the late stretches of spring training and then you are now commiting to him for 4 times as long at about 2.5 times the money….well I think it is time to ask yourself if you’re guilty of buying high after a career year. Especially when Lohse has a long track record of being roughly league average. That’s not bad. It is important to have good depth in the rotation. It’s just not where I put that kind of payroll commitment.

by Merry CRasmus on Oct 19, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I shoul rephrase that...

he got one year and $16M dollars too much! 3/$24M would have been fine with me.

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Oct 21, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's how I see those previous deals.

Soriano is a second baseman who was forced to learn another position thus he struggled, Lee is a OF in a DH’s body so he hurts the team, Holliday is one of the best LF defensively in the game of course he did suck at third in the minors but he had time to transition unlike soriano.

And now a scene from seinfeld
ELAINE: [mind] Who does this guy think he is?
KEITH: [mind] I'm Keith Hernandez.

by CodyG on Oct 18, 2009 7:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

soriano

was a nominal 2B only and has had years to transition to LF. if holliday is one of the best in LF, and you’re probably right, that just says everyone else is bad.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Oct 18, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But, Soriano had good years defensively as a LFer prior to this year.

So, I’m not sure what you are getting at. His first year as a LFer, in Washington, he was above average. And he’s been above average each of his first three years, according to UZR, putting up an exceptional 18.4 UZR in 2007. This year is his first year as a below average LFer, according to the metric. It would seem that immediately transitioned into a good defensive LFer and then had a bad year this year for whatever reason. All of this, plus his offensive decline, make me wonder how badly he was injured and fairly confident that, if healthy, he will have a better year both offensively and defensively. Even so, I doubt he’ll be worth his salary…

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 19, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His LF value has mainly been on the basis of his arm

However, as players realize how foolish it is to take an extra base off of him, they won’t attempt to do so nearly as often. Then, his arm won’t be as valuable, and he’ll be left with only his range, which really isn’t that good.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 19, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Somebody's been reading their Fielding Bible II...

:)

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 19, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

(I can't believe I just posted a smile emoticon.)

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 19, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

:(

                                                                                                                                                                                                         .

by vivaelpujols on Oct 19, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember seeing a snippet somewhere

Which is where I ripped off that brilliant analysis. I haven’t read the book though.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 19, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It pointed out Ludwick's good RF defense to me,

and that led to my noticing his defense throughout this season, which made me greatly appreciate it. He’s really quite good out there.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

GLOVEWICK

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If I'm not mistaken, didn't he lead the league one year in assists or something?

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 19, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

At baseball-reference.com,

nothing in bold face, which is that site’s way of indicating a league leading stat. That said, he had 22 assists in ’06 and 19 in ’07, which seem like very high numbers, at least among the leading totals in the league.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Oct 19, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

don't run on yadi

but run on poor outfielders. thus, they rack up assists. manny probably does too. they get so many more chances.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Oct 19, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Since much of that is people not going third to home

aren’t the people not running him therefore runs prevented, if you had a weaker-armed guy out there? Going third to home is something that you have to do at a relatively low percentage in order to break even.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 19, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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