As I sit, hours into the offseason...
by Jhusk on Oct 11, 2009 2:13 AM EDT
46 comments
Man that sucked.
This team deserved a better finish. Well, I shouldn't say this team. The team that dominated the month of August to the tune of an 11 1/2 game lead in the division deserved better.
But now it's over, and there's nothing we can do about it.
But as I sit here, sipping an honorary Schlafly's Hefeweizen--to which I owe VEB for exposing me to--, I'm filled not with anger, disappointment, sadness, but a quiet satisfaction at the ride that was 2009. We, as fans, got to watch Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright and Albert Pujols have simultaneous career-type years.
How freaking cool is that?
And you know what? I would not have enjoyed it nearly as much without this site. Oh sure, I'd enjoy it, but I wouldn't be able to talk about the Cardinals in a deeper way than 95% of fans. Colby Rasmus Fire Burning in the Outfield wouldn't be a part of my life. I wouldn't be able to yell "Midwest Nice engage!!!" at my girlfriend before a Matt Holliday at-bat and have her look at me like I had lost my freaking mind.
This place really helped me become a true fan. I think back to 1996, and man, I had no idea what was going on. Granted, I was 10, but still.
2000, 2001, 2002 were all the same way. Fun, but in a "barely hanging on to a careening car" kind of way. '04 was a bit better (minus the World Series, of course-- anybody know when they're gonna play that thing?), and 2005 as well.
But 2006 is when I really came of age as a fan, midway through the regular season, and it was after I googled "St. Louis Cardinals blog" and came by here. I started paying attention to prospects. I started looking at stats. Heck, I'm the guy who, sometime during the 2005 season, asked my dad, "What's going on with that Wainwright kid they got in the J.D. Drew trade?"
But now I can tell you that I have no clue who Allen Craig has to sleep with to get a call-up, that Jaime Garcia could be a great left-handed starting option next year, and that I cannot WAIT till the start of the Shelby Miller era in St. Louis.
I guess my point here is that 2009 ended to early, but because of VEB, 2010 isn't so far off.
(By the way, I highly recommend listening to the end of season-ending games rather than watching. There's something quite comforting in hearing Mike Shannon, after the last out, say, "Our next broadcast'll be March 6, down in Florida. We're taking on the Marlins.")
Rogers Hornsby said it best: "People ask me what I do when there's no baseball. I stare out the window and wait till spring."
The second-best part of the year behind baseball season is baseball's offseason, and here's to a great one, VEB.
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We, as fans, got to watch Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright and Albert Pujols have simultaneous career-type years.
Here is fun fact. By WAR, this is only Pujols’ third best year.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 11, 2009 2:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Teh guy sucks...
DFA him.
Nice post husk.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die." ~
Ryan Fucking Ludwick
by RiverRat on Oct 11, 2009 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When does Sean Smith's WAR come out?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 11, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you all keep this up, there's going to be about 1000 new fan posts by next week
about the season. so how about every one just add their thoughts here unless the mods want to make one?
and you were 10 in 96? HFS® i graduated high school in 96 for craps sake. f’in kids
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 11, 2009 2:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyway...
This season had some pretty bright moments. But in truth, they were a good team in April, then again when they traded for Holiday until the middle part of Sept (11 onward). The rest of the year, they were a really aggravating team.
Awful offense. Not just the not hitting, but the way they approached it. The whole “being aggressive” thing. Goodbye walks, goodbye working the count to tire out the pitcher, swing at everything you can reach with the bat (and then some).
So, really, I thought it was sort of a fitting end.
I don’t know whose fault it was, Tony’s (his quote) or Hal MacRae’s. But it was just horrible. I don’t think I’ve ever yelled at the TV more than this year.
The player I was disappointed most in was Rasmus. At least his hitting. The one thing I was really excited about was his ability to get on base. And his first month, he was pretty good at walking. Not great, but promising. And then, whatever happened to the team as a whole, really really really affected him.
He went from being possibly, at least in my mind, the next Ray Lankford, to being the next Corey Patterson. He improved a little but still pretty scary to me. Maybe I’m overreacting, but generally you don’t see a huge jump in walks in a hitters career (or at least, I’ve never really noticed one) from what they first do.
Hopefully though, next year we will have a new batting coach (and crossing my fingers, a new manager) that will have a non-aggressive approach at the plate.
by DiscoJer on Oct 11, 2009 6:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i think next year will tell us a lot about Colby
This year we learned he wasn’t quite ready with the bat, and he has awesome defensive skills. He’s also very young, and his 7.1% BB/PA rate was higher than any Corey Patterson has put up in his career.
Remember, Rasmus was called up to the big leagues 2 full years younger than Lankford was (that first dot on Lankford’s graph is a sept callup (well, 21 Aug), and the first two on Patterson’s are partial seasons as well). Colby’s dot is this full season, though he was protected from lefties (Lankford has almost twice as many PA’s against LHP as colby).
Lankford’s first full MLB season: .251/.301/.392 (.693 OPS) in 615 PA at season age 24
Rasmus’ first full MLB season: .251/.307/.407 (.714 OPS) in 520 PA at season age 22
Add in another 95 PA’s at Rasmus’ awful .474 OPS line against LHP, and his season line comes to .237/.293/.383, .676 OPS, which is right there with Lankford at a much younger age.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Oct 11, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...and he's been wasting away.
between being shielded from overexposure, and his health problems, I think we’ve got a read on his 2009 about as accurate as Ludwick’s.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 11, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't agree with you wrt Colby.
It seemed to me that the kid was developing as a player all year. As a matter of fact, I would say that he was one of the few players that didn’t seem to forget that it was still baseball in the playoffs. He certainly is more discerning at the plate than Rick Ankiel, and I would also say he’s better at it than Ryan Ludwick. I think that good health and more seasoning is all he needs to become a very good all around player for this team for many years to come. I also think that his power potential is better than I ever that it would be.
I do think that LaRussa poses two significant roadblocks to his development:
1) He will never realize his potential as a base-stealer under LaRussa
2) He will never realize his potential against LHP under LaRussa
I also agree with your point about the so-called “aggressive” approach of the hitters at the plate. I can’t blame the hitting coach because that has been a recurring theme of the LaRussa’s teams for the last decade, and he has changed hitting coaches frequently.
by etp_stl on Oct 11, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
completely agree with both #1 and #2.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Oct 11, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not sure about this
On 1, some of it had to do with Colby batting #2 often? Maybe I missed a TLR quote about not wanting Colby stealing. I think there are so many thinks that a rookie has to learn that stealing bases might not be highest on the priority. TLR let Yadi steal bases this year. Maybe you are right. I wish TLR were more Soscia-like in terms of base stealing. I think Boog, Colby, Skippy should all be swiping more under the right circ’s.
On 2 – would Mather be part of CF platoon? I am assuming with AnK gone, Colby’s PT in CF will increase.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Oct 12, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My reason for 1 is ...
that LaRussa has been pretty consistent since he’s been here about not being terribly interested in the SB. It will be interesting to see how the contract status of Holliday affects that, but LaRussa obviously has no interest in the runner putting himself in scoring position in front of Pujols as long as there is insufficient protection behind him.
I still think he puts too much pressure on the Cards bats to produce “damage,” when Albert hits at least as many 1Bs a year as he does HRs. It would be nice if that 1B were able to drive in a run from 2B every once in a while.
by etp_stl on Oct 13, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As his power develops
And I am confident it will, he should eventually be a fixture in the 5 or 6 spot in the lineup. It will make a lot more sense to send him from those spots than it does at the top, in front of Pujols. I’d like him to be in front of Molina, so that he could be sent and avoid some of these double plays.
by Merry CRasmus on Oct 11, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
his powar would still be there if not for that damn tapeworm
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 11, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That certainly had an effect
As it was, he showed pretty well in that regard for 22/23 yr old. I saw what I was hoping to see as far as that went and also as far as his ability to track down fly balls. His plate discipline wasn’t quite where I would hope it to be, and I was pretty surprised he struggled against lefties as much as he did. I didn’t think he looked as bad as his numbers suggested though, and it will get better with experience. Good to see him handle them in the playoffs.
by Merry CRasmus on Oct 12, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
COMMUNICATION IN THE OUTFIELD.
but, yes.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 12, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I GOT IT
6ly Cody, it’s not hard to say
learn it
live it
love it
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 12, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully that's just a confidence thing.
He seemed to be better with that as the season went on, also. Early on I thought Ludwick was going to whack him on his melon, though.
by etp_stl on Oct 12, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we call it.... luggage
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 12, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tlr
is still in the american league
“damage in the 2 spot”, ludicrous. highest obp in front albert is what makes sense, especially if he is batting 3rd!
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Oct 11, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...i think that's what tlr meant.
i could be wrong, of course, because wth knows what he means
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 12, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It Can Happen in the NLDS
The Dodgers simply outplayed the Cardinals in the series. They beat Carpenter in game 1 and were able to get to a dejected Ryan Franklin in game 2 following the Holliday error. Last night, Padilla dominated the Cardinals, and the Dodgers did damage against Piniero. It was a good season for St. Louis. In the MLB playoffs, you never know when you’re going to hit a bad stretch.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Oct 11, 2009 8:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If it wasn't for Matthew Leach
I never would’ve discovered this place. This is my home now. After all, home is where the heart is…
by zoomzoomj88 on Oct 11, 2009 10:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Geezz! Who in the hell
cares about some WAR stat at this time. Let people carry on a conversation and go play with your War stats in a corner.
by ridgesee on Oct 11, 2009 10:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying it now: this place is too stat-oriented
Let the hate begin!
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Feel free to follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
by zoomzoomj88 on Oct 11, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JEBUS
what is with all the f-in hate for stats lately. You know when you come here that certain mods are going to be heavy on the stats. And some of our best commenters provide us with a lot of great stat analysis. Why do people come here and bitch, bitch, bitch about it? Just keep it to yourself and move on. It seems to me that most of us here appreciate this work, and those of us that don’t at least have the common courtesy to not be pains in the ass about it.
For those that absolutely hate the advance metrics, why not just skip VEB on days when chuck posts? He is here every Thurday, Saturday, and Sunday. And if you don’t like what some of the people who comment have to say, just click on the damn subject line and the rest of their comments will go away.
/ends rant
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 11, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't usually say anything
but it was the first time I’d actually looked at one of chuck’s posts when it came to stats. Usually I just ignore them (no offense chuck). My bad for causing that one Matty.
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Feel free to follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
by zoomzoomj88 on Oct 11, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it wasn't aimed at you zoom zoom
it is just an ongoing thing here and it is extremely frustrating
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 11, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your loss
Understanding and accepting the stats that make better sense of the game enhance enjoyment of it.
"But as the leadoff guy that inning, my job is to get on base and let guys drive me in." - Albert Pujols 8/20/09, base-clogger.
by lightbulb on Oct 12, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just want to say I love it.
Chuck and VEB in general has taught me how to analyse baseball from another angle and I love it. I guess what I am trying to say is 
(Insert Your Own Joke)
by AWolfAtTheDoor on Oct 11, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The advanced stats that is
(Insert Your Own Joke)
by AWolfAtTheDoor on Oct 11, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ZoomZoom's comment isn't that awful there.
Obviously, chuck is going to bring the statistical analysis; and that’s a great perspective for analyzing baseball. Unfortunately, there are some commentors here that I’ve noticed have gotten extremely defensive about any posts/comments that aren’t based in statistical analysis. As Sleepy states, there are plenty of emo sites out there, but the interesting part of this site has always been that many perspectives were discussed. Larry was always able to successfully mix the statistical crowd with those that still want to incorporate traditional analysis methods. Sometimes this year it has seemed that the traditional methods are no longer welcome here.
I feel like I have learned at least something from nearly all of the regulars on this site. I certainly appreciate the in-depth discussions and analysis that go on here, and I even enjoy the raw nerves and ranting that often goes on during the game threads. I have learned a great deal from the members that do delve deeply into the statistics of players, teams, and coaches. I respect their opinions and efforts. Unfortunately, I’ve felt more and more this year that some don’t seem to extend that same respect to those that don’t wish to use the stat-du-jour to back up every comment or argument that they choose to make.
I know that the argument could be made that I should just stop coming here if I don’t like everything about the site, but this site is still better than most. I enjoy the community, and hopefully this criticism is seen as constructive rather than combative.
by etp_stl on Oct 11, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with everything you said
and it was aim more at the go sit in the corner statement . There is no need for that kind of stuff. I don’t understand why people just can’t ignore what they don’t like and just move on. I hate it when people make me all negative.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 11, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you on that one as well.
I have to admit that I pretty well skipped completely over that comment because I didn’t really think it added anything to the discussion. I definitely understand why you decided to call it out, as it seemed to be a cheap shot at VEP that wasn’t called for.
by etp_stl on Oct 11, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus I think his point
Was simply that Pujols doesn’t have career years. There aren’t really any comps for him. He just used WAR to illustrate that, and it seemed pretty damn innocent to me.
by Merry CRasmus on Oct 11, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know I'm one of the most stat oriented posters here
But I’d rather not be seen that way. In fact, over the past few months, I become much more interested in analyzing players through Pitch f/x, which is basically digitized scouting.
Unfortunately, I’ve felt more and more this year that some don’t seem to extend that same respect to those that don’t wish to use the stat-du-jour to back up every comment or argument that they choose to make.
I don’t think I ever do that, and if anyone else feels that way, I’m sorry. The only thing I ever ask for when debating topics with other posters is that they back up their statements with something. It doesn’t have to be stats – it could be a scouting opinion from a well respected source, or anything that makes you opinion valid. I’m sure that you can see there is a difference.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 12, 2009 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
that's exactly what VEB is all about
backing up your opinions with facts. doesn’t matter what they are, just have them. otherwise it can turn into the PD boards. and no one wants that.
and yes, i’m well aware of how ironic this statement is
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 12, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
At the very least the PD boards usually me smile.
Let’s just say they didn’t disappoint today.
(Insert Your Own Joke)
by AWolfAtTheDoor on Oct 12, 2009 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm completely on board with that, VEP.
I don’t have much use for unsubstantiated, off-hand remarks in the middle of the interesting discussions that are on here, either. We’ve had plenty of good arguments together this year, and I look forward to it through the offseason and into next year, as well.
For the most part, I don’t have a real problem with what goes on around here; but I could probably name a couple handfuls of times this year that I have seen some extremely dismissive comments from a few commentors that often revolve around not accepting as gospel the results of some statistical study that was done. I’m ok with arguing the topic any time, but when you get the blogging equivalent of the other person rolling his/her eyes at you it’s pretty aggravating.
by etp_stl on Oct 12, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn’t that usually evolve into a debate about stats?
by ol Pete on Oct 12, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn’t have to be stats – it could be a scouting opinion from a well respected source,
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Oct 12, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or a simple
“It looks like he’s doing [this], has anyone else noticed that?”
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 12, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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