Hot Stove -- 1/9 thru 1/16
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 2:19 PM EST
492 comments
We're up over 400 posts on the last one so I thought I'd get a new one started.
Some carry over discussions from the last couple of days:
- It looks to me from Mo's comments that if he thinks the team needs another starting pitcher than he would go out and get one. Hmmmmmm...
- The free agent pitching market just got a little smaller with all the old folks signing yesterday (Hoffman to the Brew Crew, and Smoltz to the Sawx), and one Japanese pitcher also off the market (Uehara to the O's). The contracts seem fairly reasonable but the only one I would have liked to see with the Cards is Uehara. Does anyone think this makes Kawakami cheaper? Or will he still get 3 years at $8M or $9M per season?
- It also looks like Tony is ready to give Colby a shot in CF at some point next year, and thinks that the team should probably move an outfielder to make room for him. I wonder which outfielder he feels needs to be moved most.
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I voted Ankiel
Simply because I think he brings the most back in return and because he probably will not get the Cards any draft pick compensation when he leaves this year.
I also think that he may be the best possible trade candidate midseason if he’s healthy, and that’s when I expect Colby to come up — sometime in late May or early June.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 2:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i voted Skip because Tony is too attached to Rick to let go right now
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 9, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you on this, fourstick
have to give up something to get something
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:
by gocards62 on Jan 9, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not convinced
that we will get as much as you think for Rick. Other teams are going to be just as worried about Boras as we are. We might have more luck hanging on to him until the trade deadline and trading him to a team trying to make a playoff push.
And I say England's greatest prime minister was Lord Palmerston.
by tangledbrett on Jan 9, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
boras
i don’t think its so much boras that poeple are worried about. i mean, he will deter some teams but the big deal is that we have a CF in waiting and there is no reason to pay someone 8-10 mil a year when you have a cheap replacement of Colby’s talent.
there are several teams that have questions at CF this year and more that will have questions next year. teams could (and currently do) a lot worse than ricky.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 9, 2009 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
although i agree with you
i don’t think he brings back his worth. i think we will have to sell low on him despite how he is playing.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 9, 2009 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You may be right.
If we hang onto him until the trade deadline at least, we might be able to find a team that is willing to give up a little more if they have a specific need to fill. I guess you never know what situations will present themselves, but if he can perform well during the first half and prove that he isn’t a fluke, his stock goes up exponentially IMO.
And I say England's greatest prime minister was Lord Palmerston.
by tangledbrett on Jan 9, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All I said
Was that we would get more for Rick than for Schumaker, Mather, or Barton. I don’t think that trading Ludwick makes a lot of sense for the 2009 Cardinals.
Do you think that we get less for Ankiel than we get for Schumaker, Mather, or Barton straight up? Rick hit more homers in a healthy half season last year than those three guys have hit in their entire big league careers combined. Someone out there will be willing to roll the dice on a guy who could probably hit around 40 homers if he ever played a full season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you
That we will get more for Rick than the others, but I don’t think the difference between what Rick and Skip will bring is as significant as many people think. Skip is cost controlled and plays good D, so he has some things going for him. Most teams will look at Rick as a rental, which hurts his value. In either case, I think they will have to be part of a package to get a significant return. I agree with your earlier post that waiting to trade Rick until midseason might be a wise option. If he comes out healthy, and raking, teams might be willing to splurge on a rental if they think he can get them into the post season.
And I say England's greatest prime minister was Lord Palmerston.
by tangledbrett on Jan 10, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, but
what if the Cards are the ones contending? Don’t most of the “trade him midseason” arguments go away, assuming he’s healthy? Seems to me that all bets are off, at that point, especially if RAnk is raking.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2009 1:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
I think if he’s healthy and having a good year at the midseason mark, the trade him fervor is going to be at the same level it is now, at least among those of us here at VEB. We have a replacement for him that, barring injury, should be ready to come up and replace him at that point, and will be cost controlled for 6 years (and essentially free for the first three). We could be leading the division in July and I still think there would be a good number of people looking to move Rick for starting pitching help at that time, unless one of the kids has proven he’s big league material. Obviously it would be better for us if he’s raking because we’d probably get some sort of draft compensation for him at the end of the year, but he’d have to have one hell of a season to qualify as type A: I’m talking 40+ homers and 120+ RBI’s. I just don’t have faith that he can stay healthy for a full season and put up those numbers.
There’s also an inherent risk that he may have less value than he does now if we wait until the midseason mark. When chuckb wrote about this a couple months ago, he was essentially saying that it would be better to deal him now even if the return isn’t great, simply because if we don’t we could risk getting nothing for him when he leaves, and the team has literally no reason to bring him back at all if he can’t stay healthy in 2009, not at any conceivable price that is more than he’s currently making.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 10, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, I think Rasmus is sufficiently promising and Ankiel defense limited enough
that we may actually be better off with Rasmus. Whatever runs we lose in what will likely be a temporary slump for colby we may gain in defense over Rick, whose arm was great but whose general D was below average.
I’m not even sure that this is a “increasingly expensive fielder one year before a Boras negotiation” issue, so much as a “colby may be better” issue. I guess we could still have Rick in RF and Lud in LF, but I think we downplay rasmus’ defensive skill and ignore Rick’s limitations by playing this just as a Boras/money issue.
by tom s. on Jan 11, 2009 4:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rick was injured. I still think he belongs in RF though.
by astrostl on Jan 11, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
After Ank was injured
he pretty much pinch hit and played LF. That UZR/150 of -10.5 was pretty much all compiled before the injury. I agree on RF – it might be a little bit of an adjustment, but he just doesn’t seem to get a good enough jump on the ball to play CF. Besides, I would rather see the 22 year-old legs out there than the 30 year-old ones.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 11, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I voted Ank
I don’t want to trade Ludwick, and you won’t really get anything in return for the other guys.
Also, Ankiel is set to get a pay raise, so trading him would ideally create spending money. (Unless you trade for another player of equal or greater salary)
Are the giants still interested in trading Sanchez, we could do Ank + Freese for him. Anyone object to this?
by TheBirds on Jan 9, 2009 3:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I voted Ank as well
Mainly because of the one word that every baseball fan knows is made of PURE EVIL:
B
O
R
A
S
I think that he will try and manipulate us and other teams for paying a lot more than he’s worth imo, and the FO will be forced to trade him now or midseason.
by Taskmaster on Jan 9, 2009 3:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Boras...
They guy we worked with to get Lohse?
by Evilfrog on Jan 9, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
You saying you are happy with Lohse’s contract?
by Taskmaster on Jan 9, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to defend the lohse contract.
Much. I will say it was a very different time three-four months ago.
On the other hand, the Lohse contract didn’t result from any major squeezing or manipulation. Mo practically sprinted into the negotiations. We pulled Lohse from his last start so he could do his physical, that’s how excited we were.
Boras is surely guilty of many things (he is off Jeff Weaver’s Christmas card list), but if he had a willing victim it’s hard to make him the bad guy in the Lohse case.
by tom s. on Jan 9, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes that guy
And that 4 year/$41 million dollar deal w/ a full no trade clause. That would be Boras…
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 9, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lohse is in hindsight a pretty bad deal to the tune of several million dollars.
how did it happen = boras + panic + the general ostrich-like (head in the sand) attitude of the country’s financial elite, which includes bdw.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jan 9, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Btw
i was wondering what you guys thought about trading with Seattle? Perhaps we can work out a deal with them for Bedard(I can dream, oh yes), or maybe even Smith/Morrow. This at all possible?
by Taskmaster on Jan 9, 2009 3:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Trading with Seattle got a lot harder when they fired Bavasi
I don’t think that they’re going to trade Smith or Morrow for ANYONE now that they are in a rebuilding mode (which they should have been at the deadline last year and dumped Washburn, Ibanez, etc.).
If I was them, I’d be looking to move players like Bedard and King Felix for a lot of good prospects in AA and AAA to maximize the amount of talent I could get for each, and make their rebuilding period a shot one. The problem with this is, of course, is that neither of them can stay healthy enough for you to get their full value. They’ll probably get a similar haul to what the Cardinals got for J.D. Drew a half decade ago, or maybe a little more considering the lack of good starting pitchers out there next year. Ideally, the best time to deal either of those guys will be in the mid-season of next year if they’ve proved they are healthy and Morrow and a couple of their other young arms are ready to make a move into the big league rotation.
Which gets me to thinking: Maybe it would be a good idea to try out the kids in spring training, hope that Carpenter will be able to help the rotation, and then make a move for one of these type of pitchers (i.e. Guys that are on rebuilding clubs and entering arbitration or free agency after the ’09 season) at mid-season or the trade deadline next year. At that point the front office will have a lot better idea of where the club is in terms of talent.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why would they trade King Felix for prospects?
The guy is 22 years old. He’s younger, more talented, and more proven than anyone they’d get in return.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 9, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Possibly because they're going to lose him in two years...
He’ll be a free agent after the 2010 season and he’ll be 24 years old. He is going to get a huge payday if he doesn’t break down with injury over the next two seasons, and Seattle may not be able to sign him for any amount of money if he decides that he wants to play for a contender every year. He could literally get a 7Y$200M deal if things stay the way that they are, because you be getting his prime seasons for nearly that entire contract. Why risk getting nothing but a draft pick lower than #15 for a guy who could bring you 3 or 4 really good prospects already in AA?
The Mariners don’t have any good pitching prospects above A ball outside of Morrow. They have a couple of good young position players on their major league roster, but no top prospects in the minors right now that project to be all-star type players and only a few even project as regulars. They have a lot of questions, ultimately, they don’t have great attendance, and are paying Ichiro a ton of money because he’s one of the few guys that brings in revenue for them. He’s also in his mid-thirties and isn’t going to play forever. They just changed GM’s, so he may want to blow up the current roster, keeping all the cost controlled players and trading the high paid guys and the guys they won’t be able to sign (other than Ichiro or even including him) so they can begin to rebuild their farm system.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
fourstick
why aren’t you one of the main bloggers on this blog? Well-written, well-thought-out frequent posts….they bring you on, and then it would truly be a Gang of Four.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would be happy to add something to the conversation.
I also think that the moderators we have do a great job. The discussions are always free-flowing and well thought out, and while I don’t always agree with what they say, as you could see in my debate with azru the other day, I do appreciate the passion that they bring to their arguments and the Cardinals in general. That’s what separates this Cards blog from many of the other ones out there.
I love the job DanUp has done since he came aboard, but I gotta say I do miss lboros’ well thought out posts, especially on the front office and the minor leagues. I was seriously ecstatic to see baron’s first draft related post this week — by far my favorite posts of the pre-spring training months…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 10, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't agree with them dealing him now.
For one, they have at least a year to try to work something out in terms of an extension. Also, he has a huge presence in Seattle. Maybe it’s because I live in Seattle, so I know very closehand about the M’s scenario, but I think they’re going to try to hold onto him as much as possible, especially for now. If they deal him, it will be the last year of his contract. He could easily be the icon on this team after Ichiro leaves, Seattle loves him, and the M’s will try to resign him. Especially if his injury problems continue, they could probably extend him for a decently cheap contract until he’s 27 or so as he tries to prove his endurance.
Also, time to get sort of defense, but the M’s actually do have pretty good attendance. You can’t blame fans for not wanting to go during a 100-loss season in the midst of the worst economic downslide in decades. Other than last season, the M’s usually draw above-average crowds even when losing.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 11, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Morrow is not possible.
But Bedard might be. But yeah, Morrow is one of the few legitimately good young players they have, and they’re going to do everything they can to hold onto him in this time of rebuilding.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 9, 2009 7:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel.
I think he should provide more value than either Schumaker or Barton, and he’s most likely gonna cost more than Mather and Ludwick after this year. I think he will be a fine player, but I also think he will continue to have injury problems. If the Cardinals can get something for him and have an OF of Mather, Rasmus, Ludwick for the next 3 years than they should be in pretty good shape. Hopefully, Ankiel lands a solid starting pitcher or MIF prospect.
by etp_stl on Jan 9, 2009 4:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I lol'd when I read this
The Orioles have Edmonds on the radar as a first base candidate.
by bearcatcardfan on Jan 9, 2009 4:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That sound you hear
is Barry Bonds weeping softly to himself.
by liam on Jan 9, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Crap
The Barry Bonds debate will now ensue…
by Taskmaster on Jan 9, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's assuming Barry Bonds or Jim Edmonds would play 1B
I’m not sure that either would want to do that, despite what Barry has said publicly.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jimmy said the same thing his final season here
and when he couldn’t play CF he did pretty well playing 1st when Albert was on the DL. so i can totally see him doing it. especially if the price is right.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 9, 2009 8:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
400
Jimmy’s pretty close to 400 dingers. If he can hang around and hit that mark, his HOF candidacy will take a huge step forward. I’d expect him to give it a shot.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Jan 12, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the O's considered
Kevin Millar an acceptable starting 1B for 2 years …
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 9, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll go with Ankiel
for no defensible reason whatsoever except that I think he’s cursed. His career has had too many huge ups followed by devastating downs, and I expect more.
(I kind of expect Luddy’s career to implode any time now too, but only because of the injury risk. With Ank you get physical AND psychological injuries.)
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 9, 2009 5:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
he's cursed!?
it’s that black cat!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For no defensible reason?
I’ll help you come up with some: We have a ton of lefty outfielders, of all of our outfielders, his production is the most likely to be duplicative (Rasmus), he’ll fetch more value than Schumaker, and he’s only signed for one more year.
by Ray Lankford on Jan 10, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
schumaker
he’s not as good as ankiel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2009 5:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I took this as
Who do you want traded, rather than who will bring the most return when traded. Therefore, I voted for Skip. Obviously Rick will bring back more, but I really don’t think Skip is or should be in the organization’s long term plans. Rasmus, Barton, and Mather could/should be. Then we also control Ludwick for three more years, have guys like Jones and Jay coming up, and we have the Duncan factor. He’s a solid player, but I don’t want Skip to get 594 PAs when we’re trying to get PAs for Rasmus.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 9, 2009 5:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
me not understand argument
that Ankiel will be worth more than other guys there
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2009 5:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I said Schu
because it appears that Ank’s trade value is far less than I think it should be. Other teams know who his agent is too and I think the Cards are the only team that might get him signed for a reasonable amount. He does, after all, owe us for the patience we’ve shown over the years. Though I doubt that he’ll have a long career his ascent as a hitter/outfielder has been truly amazing and I have a feeling he’ll have a couple of years when he’s up in the MVP balloting. I also think that Lud’s year was not a total fluke and that we’ll need his right handed bat.
To tell you the truth I don’t want them to even trade Schu right now. I do think Ras is a great prospect but I don’t think he’s really ready. If Schu has a half a year to prove he’s the player he showed last year we might get something of value with him in a package. If Ras is raking in June then we can bring him up but, unless he just flat out proves he’s ready in ST I don’t want him sticking with the team.
I’m also not buying TLR’s endorsement of the kid as I doubt that he’s any more impressed with his one good month than I am. Don’[t know what his angle is though.
by easy on Jan 9, 2009 5:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think other teams
are convinced that Ankiel will keep hitting.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what tlr says is true
rasmus IS (probably) going to be a great player. He’ll absolutely “shove someone aside”, as TLR says, when he’s ready. But I agree, it won’t hurt anything except his ego (and his dad’s) to bring him up in June, if we can’t trade skip this spring.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 9, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Still a bit skeptical on that
I’m a long way from being a TLR hater, but after my initial excitement re: his comments on Rasmus (he seemed to be paving a path for him) I began to read “shove someone aside” in a different light.
Tony loves competition for spots (which is good) and if numbers are more or less equal he generally goes with experience over youth (fair enough). Because of that, I began to read “shove someone aside” as TonySpeak for- once he begins to put up numbers in the Show, then he’ll move someone aside.
If I’m correct (which would really be something), that would mean Rasmus gets cleanup duty for a bit. I don’t think there isn’t necessarily anything wrong with that, but I’m all for bringing him up ASAP and letting him take his lumps- which given his track record upon promotion would seem to be the likely outcome. To my mind, this means it’ll probably be 2010 before Rasmus is a regular.
Well, at least Tony’s openly acknowledging Rasmus’ talent- that’s progress.
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 11, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
by "cleanup..."
I don’t mean the 4 hole in the order- I should make that clear
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 11, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
listen to the interview
the mp3 is available in a couple of threads here. There’s nothing to read into anything, no innuendo; TLR is just saying Colby is going to be an elite player and when he’s ready, skip etc won’t keep him from making the big leagues.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 11, 2009 9:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Voted for Skip
If Raz could immediately replace and exceed the production of any of our outfielders on the roster it would be Skip. Shipping him almost ensures that Rasmus will be our leadoff hitter.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 9, 2009 6:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I voted skippy as well.
I ackowledge that this is more of a vote from the 10 year old kid inside me, but the odyssey Rick Ankiel has been one of the greatest things I have ever witnessed as a sports fan. I would have hard time seeing his story continued in another uniform. I also think his upside might me higher than any of us think. I mean, the dude is still learning.
I vote we ditch Skip, and hang onto Rick one more year. Maybe he resigns for a hometown discount, maybe not. At least it will be his decision to leave. If he decides to go elsewhere for more money, I think I could live with that, more so than dumping him off ’cause we are afraid of dealing with Bor-ASS.
And I say England's greatest prime minister was Lord Palmerston.
by tangledbrett on Jan 9, 2009 7:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Skippy!!!
Send him somewhere nice, maybe San Diego. I still believe that Ankiel can hit .280, hit 40 hr, and get over 100 RBI if he stays healthy long enough. This year is going to be fun to watch if Ank, Luddy, and Rasmus can show what they’re capable of. And if one of these guys goes down…we still have Mather!!!
Regarding Mather, will his hand injury from last year effect his production this year?
And about the hot stove…please, please can we get one more starter. PLEASE!!!
Chuck Norris bows to no man...but he does bow to The Mang.
by miniboscorino on Jan 9, 2009 7:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I voted Barton
just because the instruction said to pretend you are Tony. Pretty sure that is who he would vote off the OF island. Not that it would make a lot of sense…
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 9, 2009 9:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Kawakami
is reportedly heading to Atlanta. Bah. I wonder what the contract will be?
Despite rumors, Hummel said earlier today he’s never really heard his name that much, and earlier in the week Goold said the Cards are interested in Oliver Perez and Randy Wolf. Blech. I’d take Kawakami over either of those two.
Why do I feel we’re gonna end up with Jon Garland when it’s all said and done/
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 9, 2009 9:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
because the Cards only pick low hanging fruit
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 9, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Low hanging fruit
that is rotten and tastes bad.
by spants on Jan 10, 2009 1:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
although
i made a comment in another thread that i don’t know if garland would be so bad on a 1 year/5 mil type of deal. obviously it won’t add many wins but its better than pinero and it leaves us some of those funds for that elusive “mid-season” deal.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 9, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not so fast
I don’t think I’d want Randy Wolf at all, mainly because of his injury history.
Oliver Perez, on the other hand, interests me if we can get him on a fairly short contract (2-3Y) for around $20M-$25M, also known as “what the Cubs paid Jason Marquis.”
I think for that price he is worth it if the team believes that Duncan can get through to him. He seems to be the classic “Million dollar talent and ten cent head” type of guy. If he can get some instruction and learn how to gameplan for hitters I think he could be a really good addition because he can be unhittable at times.
I’d still rather have Ollie Perez than John Garland at any price.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perez
Has a career 4.67 FIP. Garland has a 4.74. Wolf 4.33.
People see Perez and think he’s going to one day break out b/c he racks up a lot of K’s, but the truth is he’s one of the most extreme flyball pitchers in the game and his command sucks. He survives on K’s and as he ages the K’s are going to fade away.
I’m not excited about any of the three pitchers, but if they sign Perez I will be highly disappointed. He’s represented by Boras who is trying to sell him as the next Koufax, so I don’t think he’s coming at a much of a marked down price, and to make things worse, he’s a Type A free agent.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that on the surface he looks like the worst pick
But I’ve seen him literally dominate other teams for stretches, and I haven’t seen that from Garland, ever. I think his biggest problem is his walk rate, and Duncan may be able to work with him to push his walks down to a reasonable level, like he’s done with Wellemeyer and Lohse in 2008. I’m not advocating giving him the farm, but if he’s still dangling there in spring training like Lohse was last year, wouldn’t it make sense for us to offer him a 1 or 2 year deal for an average of what Piniero is making? Hell, even at his worst he’s better than Joel is, right? I’m not so much concerned about the fly balls since Busch does a good job of suppressing those and the Cardinals should have one of the better fly ball catching outfields in 2009, and considering his fly ball rate, he doesn’t give up more than an average number of home runs. The shock to me is that Duncan would even be interested in a fly ball pitcher — which tells me that he might see some things that could make Perez more effective.
I just don’t think Randy Wolf can stay healthy — a one year deal would be great with him, but I just don’t think that really solves anything considering how bad the free agent pitchers are the next couple of seasons.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 10, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed about the 1 year guy, you don't want to go into next offseason needing multiple pitchers
which is a position we are likely to be in.
by TheBirds on Jan 10, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
out of those 3
I’d definitely want to get Wolf… he’s my prediction of who we’ll sign
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
anybody understand why Wolf is portrayed as "old reliable" in the press and Sheets
has a scary injury history? Sheets has a much better record in terms of IP (not to mention being an infinitely better pitcher). Perez is not particularly injury prone but is unstable in a way that’s at least as bad as Sheets’ injury issues.
by tom s. on Jan 11, 2009 4:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny read
Came across this when I was catching up on things on mlbtr. Interesting story about how the Phillies always acquire The Wrong Brother.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 9, 2009 10:51 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
That's hilarious...
I wonder if there’s another team in the history of the big leagues that’s had that many lesser brothers of quality major league players.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 11:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I instantly thought
of Vince Dimaggio. Hilarious.
Does this mean Chase Utley has a more talented brother somewhere?
by spants on Jan 10, 2009 1:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Idea: Bryan Anderson for Micah Owings
I think Mo should call up his old buddy Walt and offer him Bryan Anderson for Micah Owings straight up.
Reasons why this works for the Reds
- I am going to assume with Volquez, Cueto, Harrang, and Arroyo have the 1-4 spots in the Reds rotation locked up and there will be a battle for the 5th spot between Bailey and Owings.
- Bailey seems to have the upper hand in potential but lacks Owings in major league success. If the Reds are confident in Bailey for 2009, Owings likely is the odd man out of the rotation.
- Injuries are always a concern and having a strong 6th starter is nice, but if you can get your catcher of the future for your 6th starter I think you have to go for it.
- The Reds have Ramon Hernandez behind the dish for 2009 and hold an option for 2010 on him. This is a perfect situation for Anderson and the Reds alike. He could be called up mid season 09 and make a case for the Reds to buyout Hernandez’s contract. If he needs more time to develop they can exercise his option and give Anderson one more year of development.
- Jocketty was here when Anderson was drafted and I am sure he would love to have him back under his watch.
Reasons why this works for the Cardinals
- Owings may not be the number 1 or 2 starter that many of us covet to pair with Wainwright at the top of the rotation, but a cost controlled number 4/5 starter a valuable asset.
- He was shut down at the end of July last season with shoulder soreness and has a lot of time to rest and get back into pitching shape.
- Assuming that his shoulder checks out fine, he has shown a lot of potential and with a little more maturity I think you will be able to expect 6+ innings out of him every outing.
- He will essentially be replacing Looper. If healthy I think he can match Looper’s numbers from last year with maybe a slightly higher ERA.
- Bryan Anderson is obviously blocked by Yadier. His greatest value resides in what he will net us in a trade.
- Since Tony will be batting the pitcher 8th, we are going to need a replacement to Looper’s production. Owings will surely surpass that and to be honest Tony would love to send him to the dish to pinch hit, Jason Marquis status. :)
- We need another starter and it doesn’t look like Mo is going to be able to trade Ankiel for one or spend some money on a free agent.
What do you think, is this a fair trade? If so do you do it?
by El Hombre on Jan 9, 2009 11:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think its a fair trade for the reds...
Nor do I think that Jocketty will be doing deals to help make the Cardinals better. I love the thought of Owings batting 8th though…hell, i’d maybe even bump him up to 6th or 7th depending on who was in the lineup that day
I hate winter!!!!
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I also think the Reds traded for Owings because he was the pitcher they wanted. He also was a stud postion player, so there’s that too if the pitching thing really doesn’t work out. They would be more inclined to move Bailey-who they probably won’t because his stock is down. Jocketty won’t be dealing anything to the Cardinals IMO.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 10, 2009 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it's fair for us
Owings is a borderline major league starter, at best.
by chuckb on Jan 10, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And we don't need a first baseman or corner outfielder either
So if he doesn’t work out we have no place to move him to take advantage of his bat.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We could do what the cubs are going to do with Bradley
We’ll DH him!
Oh, wait……
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who would be...
our leadoff hitter if Skippy depart?
by Elpot on Jan 10, 2009 12:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Colby
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 10, 2009 2:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
100
internet dollars says kennedy leads off for us more than a couple of times this year
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hell
I’ll make it 1,000,000 internet dollars. The recession can’t touch my virtual funds!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 10, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have a feeling that if I were Tony, I'd ask to move Barton.
If I were me, I’d move Ankiel.
by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2009 7:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Barton & Mather are competing
in ST w/Lil Duncan for the remaining OF spot. Possibly all three go to Memphis to begin the year IF Colby makes the roster.
I’d see if the Orioles have any interest in Duncan—since they’re apparently looking for a LH power bat at 1B.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:
by gocards62 on Jan 10, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Possibly all three go to Memphis to begin the year IF Colby
makes the roster.
Ludwick
Skip
Ank
Colby
Open bench spot
——————————————-
Barton
Mather
Dunc
- * If Colby makes the team out of camp, two of the three are likely going to Memphis absent a trade. Not all 3. And C. Duncan is out of options. They won’t DFA him. IMHO, C. Duncan only goes to Memphis for a rehab assignment.
But there is no way we open up with 4 left-handed outfielders and one right-handed. That means Mather or B. Barton make the team (edge to Mather). The bottom line is this: there is no room for Colby to make the roster without one of these outfielders being moved: Ankiel, Skip, or Duncan.
by jjray on Jan 10, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Unless Duncan completely tears the cover off of the ball in ST, he definitely needs to start the year in Memphis. Luddy/Raz/Ank/Schu/Mather. That is what I see our OF consisting of this season barring a trade.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 10, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
that’s what I think it’ll be too
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with you
but I doubt that will happen. If Duncan is healthy he will be on the big league roster. The only way he will be in Memphis is if they can find some way to call it a rehab. Not certain, but I think he is out of options.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 10, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
BoSox acquiting all the injury risks.
The BoSox are stealing Mo’s playbook from last year. First, they sign Penny. Then, they sign Smoltz. Now, they have signed Saito.
That seems like a lot of injury risks for one offseason, to me.
by etp_stl on Jan 10, 2009 11:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
too bad
thought saito might be a fit. still favor bringing back springer to close as often as he is able and fitting the young guys in around him.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jan 10, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I liked what Springer did, but ...
LaRussa had to be pretty sparing with him last year. He doesn’t seem to be able to bounce back fast enough to be regularly available on back-to-back days. What do you think?
by etp_stl on Jan 10, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Springer
was used like a ROOGY last year. He was our best reliever, but he wasn’t really thrown into the fire as much as some of the other guys. He also probably won’t be able to pitch back to back days very frequently.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ROOGY of the Year?
Sorry, couldn’t pass up a bad pun.
Screw you, Aaron Miles. "Hope you tear your ACL, jackass!!" - Carl
by Zoop on Jan 10, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Especially for a team that has plenty of arms to begin with
both in the big leagues and in the high minors as well.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 10, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It didn't work out
for Mo, but something tells me it will work for the Sox.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Outta MLBTR
Kawakami a Brave. Not sure what to think as there is no other info and this isn’t by any means official.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 10, 2009 2:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Cardinals whiff again.
The rotation is all set up to completely sabotage the season.
by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is how I feel
Say Carp ever gets injured for a significant part of the season. (probable)
Waino
Lohse
Welly
Piniero
? (Dry Powder, Boggs, or KMac)
And if someone else goes down, we’re just completely sunk!
by TheBirds on Jan 10, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we lost our ace last season
and the other ace was a non-factor, and we still barely missed the playoffs
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But
Wellemeyer and Lohse had awesome years that we’d be foolish to expect again. We also lost Looper. I don’t see how:
2008 (12th in MLB ERA) rotation – Looper = 2009 Playoffs
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you expect...
…Carpenter to do anything of value this season and Wellemeyer/Lohse to repeat their performances of last season? I suppose you’re entitled to that opinion, but I wouldn’t count on it.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 11, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
11 games out is barely?
And for the wild card, there were what, at least 3 other teams in front of them…
Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)
by DiscoJer on Jan 11, 2009 1:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's discuss that
The Brewers were in front of us, looking at their rotation, which is in worse shape than ours, I don’t see them anywhere near us. The Astros rotation is in a similar status. The Cubs, if they have Peavy, will have probably the scariest rotation in baseball. I see us, barring injury (Which never happens), I see us 2nd in the division, a lot of people will probably disagree with me, but hey, all in good taste.
by Taskmaster on Jan 11, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I see us 2nd
in the division if we get Lowe. Granted, we could be 2nd without him but that would be a second place with too few wins to make the postseason. This team isn’t about to win more games than the Cubs without some serious acquisitions (or a lot of luck). I mean like getting Lowe and Ohman then trading from the OF to get a better 2B. We will be playing for the wild card which means we need to focus on winning as many games as possible, not focusing on reaching 2nd place.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dude, carp's ready. no worries.
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jan 10, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is there
new news on him that I haven’t hear?
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heard*
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 8:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well played
i LOL’d ;)
Well, more of a “exhaled through the nostrils in an audible snort”…
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 11, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how much this affects the Braves pursuit of Lowe
Also, does anyone know how much Kawakami got? I’ve seen that it’s a three year deal, but I haven’t seen a $$ amount anywhere.
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 10, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The VEB articale on Lowe raised a lot of people's expectations IMO.
I don’t think it’s even a possibility we sign him, I doubt the Cardinals are even pursuing him. I really think Lowe might be the steal of the offseason too, much less durable pitchers of equal or lesser talent have gotten more money in past years than he is expected to get.
by TheBirds on Jan 10, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sorry about that
BTW, it looks like the Braves are the frontrunners for Lowe also — having offered him somewhere around 3 years and $40-42 M. We should be in there. That’s reasonable money and I’d include a 4th year vesting option. There’s no reason not to be at least matching that kind of offer. If he then prefers the Braves, so be it, but I think a 4th year vesting option could clinch it.
by chuckb on Jan 10, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And once the Braves sign Lowe
the Padres will start to get panicky again and will end up shipping Peavy to the cubs for Ronny Cedeno, Felix Pie and Donald Veal.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 10, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Donald Veal went to the Pirates in the rule 5 draft, but your point is still there.
by ol Pete on Jan 10, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah yes.
That’s why his name was fresh in my memory. Yeah, it was just the first shitty prospect pitcher of theirs that popped in my mind.
Let’s substitute Rich Hill. He struggled at rookie ball this year, but I’m sure he’s gonna get it figured out soon.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 10, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No kidding
Even if we don’t get him for that much, why not make another team have to pay more for him? Lowe would fix a lot of problems and I think he’s a great fit for St. Louis. Groundball pitcher, good defense, Dave Duncan…
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Might head into
ST without a contract.
by spants on Jan 10, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I do not see that happening
He’s too old to take a one year deal for a small amount of money because he can’t parlay another good season into a 3 or 4 years deal like Lohse did. He’s also coming off a season when he was one of the top 5 starting pitchers in the National League, it’s going to be pretty hard to improve on that performance if he can’t get a contract this season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guarantee he'll take a one year deal
over a no year deal.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No one said
“small amount of money.” I was just interpreting Cards Fan in Chitown’s comment.
by spants on Jan 11, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But if he's the "new Lohse"
that would imply that he would take a one year deal for less than what he’s worth to parlay a good season into the type of contract he was looking for originally. I don’t think that he can take the risk of doing that since he’s looking for a 3-4 year deal right now and he’d be 36 after next season.
Even a 1 year deal worth $15M would be bad for him, considering that he’s been offered 3Y$36M and 3Y$40-$42M. It would be a very bad business decision for him to give up $36M – $42M worth of guaranteed money for $15M of guaranteed money. Lohse wasn’t ever even offered on contract in that range. So to say that Lowe is the 2009 version of 2008 Kyle Lohse is misinterpreting things a bit.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And what's he supposed to do if no one offers him that multi-year deal?
Sit out the year and get it next year? I doubt it.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 12, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is...
There are rumors of multi-year deals out there from reputable sources. There were no rumors of multi year deals for Kyle Lohse last year at this time because he was shopping for a contract similar to what Carlos Silva had gotten. Furthermore, Lohse didn’t cost us a draft pick for that one year contract, but it doesn’t make sense to give up a draft pick to get a guy for one year. At least not to me. If we’re giving up the pick, lets get 3 good years out of that particular pitcher.
Lowe won’t end up sitting out the year. He’ll take one of the offers from the Mets or Braves.
Sheets is similar to Lohse in that nobody wants to sign him to a long term deal because of injury problems. He might be available in the early spring as a potential pick up, but, then again, you have to give up your first round pick if you sign him unless it’s protected.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I get what you're saying
But now I’m wondering, what if those 3 year deals aren’t good enough? He apparently laughed at the offer by the Mets, why would he take it now if he can get a 1 year deal and hopefully get a better deal in a better financial market next year (I know, big risk).
But, I guess your point is that he’ll take a lower 3 year deal because he’s guaranteed to get paid for 3 years. i could see that happening.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 12, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe I'm wrong
maybe I’m not
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 12, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wondered the same thing
Although someone said in this thread they read somewhere it didn’t, unfortunately, affect it at all. I also noticed that the Mets apparently have an agreement with Tim Redding (1/$2.25). I would guess that low a contract would also mean they are not necessarily out of the Lowe sweepstakes either.
When I saw all the signings running across the bottom of the screen during the Game 7 replay, I let myself, for about 30 seconds, get excited that this meant the Braves and Mets knew we were going to sign Lowe. Then I woke up.
by ArkansasTravs on Jan 11, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i've been preaching patience
but this is starting to get stupid. They’re not going to sign Sheets or Lowe, no one is probably going to give us a #3 for Ankiel and now they are stuck with mediocrity. They may as well as offered Looper arbitration if they were going to let this drag out with nothing else really left but Wolf and Garland.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I've read somewhere
That if they’d have offered Looper arbitration and had to sign him, it’d cost them at least 10M. When, they could sign him sometime this month and probably get him for 6M.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't see
How Looper would cost $10M in arbitration. Last year he was a 1.3 WAR player which means he’d be worth just under $6M. Then again, Lohse was a 1.7 which means he’d be worth about $7.5M….if he put up the same numbers again…..
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
now this is in all seriousness
but does a players worth according to WAR get taken into account when the arbitration process is put in motion? I suppose an arbitrator uses some of these sabermetric tools when he makes his decision on which offer to take, but does anyone know if they use such advanced ones? Sometimes I think the arbitrator just pulls a side of out his/her hat.
Also, my spell-check know what that sabermetric is a word!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 11, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably not
I would be surprised to find out that arbitrators used WAR. I just figure that since the price per WAR and the WAR numbers themselves are reflective of the state of the league during a given year, they should correlate at least somewhat with the more everyday stats that arbitrators may look at.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Same thoughts here. I’m expecting just ERA, WHIP, and that kind of stuff from them.
by astrostl on Jan 11, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wins.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this one is probably it
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 11, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny how the stats
that do the absolute worst job of indicating player performance (wins, saves, RBI) are the ones that have the most weight when it comes to money.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Arbitrators know very little about baseball
They are legal entities brought into the process to make a decision and the cases are argued just like a legal arbitration would be argued in any other civil case. They wouldn’t have the slightest idea about what the sabermetric tools are or what they mean, so the best thing is to use the stats that they would follow in the newspaper.
This is also the reason that it’s going to make a whole lot of sense to avoid arbitration when you have a player with horrible peripheral’s and rate stats and good counting numbers, and vice versa. Avoiding arbitration altogether would be the best possible conclusion for every team actually. Either sign them or don’t, and make sure they aren’t going to accept it if you offer them arbitration.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right
I realize what arbitrators are and that they know little or nothing about baseball, I should have worded one of my above comments better. I didn’t mean
I would be surprised to find out that arbitrators used WAR.
I meant the cases that each side presents likely don’t use WAR or other advanved stats because the arbitrator won’t understand them.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't know if I agree with your first paragraph
Granted, I don’t know a dang thing about the deliberations in an arbitration case, but this just doesn’t seem to jive.
Would I expect an arbiter to know or understand sabermetric stats? Not necessarily. But I would be willing to bet that an arbiter would have better than a cursory knowledge of the metrics used to evaluate talent in the sport for which they’re being paid to provide a professional, legal service. It’s not like a judge in a criminal case is clueless as to the reliability of DNA evidence, the veracity of eyewitness claims, the precedents of the case their presiding over. It’s safe to say that legal arbiters as a whole can be expected to be a pretty well-prepared group.
Further, suppose I’m incorrect about this and the arbiter is in fact a statistical blank slate (or at least only familiar with box score stats). Wouldn’t it still be in the best interests of one or both of the parties (the player and/or the team) to use some sabermetric stats (the ones most concerned with establishing a player’s overall value) to bolster their case? If so, wouldn’t it then be the responsibility of the arguing party or the arbiter him/herself to educate the arbiter?
Example: Team X is arguing that Player Y should be paid $5 million next season, while Player Y is arguing he should be paid $8 million (just pulling round figures out of thin air here). If Team X’s argument is based on the fact that Player Y had a record of 4-9 last season with a 4.75 ERA, wouldn’t it be in Player Y’s interest to point out that his FIP was 3.95, and necessarily explaining what FIP is, how it’s derived, how predictive of a stat it is, etc.?
I would find it hard to believe that neither the player nor the team officials would have all those SABR stats out in front of them, ready to explain and use in front of the arbiter to make the best case. Given that there are (usually) millions of dollars on the line, is it really reasonable to believe that a team or a player just goes in to an arbitration case hoping the arbiter doesn’t read Fangraphs?
I wouldn’t think so.
Then again, you would think that MLB would have a legal team capable enough of cleaning up the loopholes in its amateur drafting system, but every few years, a newly discovered one is exploited. So who knows.
"Chokes it hard down on the knob from the right side. Stands erect deep in the box."
by arch support on Jan 12, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You have MLB front offices that can't use Sabermetric stats correctly
But you think that an arbitrator would?
Generally the only argument that the player has is valuing his worth in comparison to other players at his position and what they make on the average. Then trying to show how much better that player is than the average player at his position.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Boras probably does know how to use the stats
and he is the one arguing for the larger amount of money. I’m sure that his legal team would present the information in such a manner that the arbitration board would understand.
by ubeddie on Jan 12, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's exactly what I was going to argue, ubeddie
Both sides have an agenda — the agent’s is to get as much money as possible, and the team’s is generally the opposite. To the extent that sabermetric stats advance either argument, I think its pretty safe to assume that one side (or both) will use them in making their argument to the arbitrator. Even if arbitrators don’t have an independent understanding of them, they are pretty sharp people who can learn quickly — especially when the teachers have an incredible incentive in helping them understand.
Actually, I know an MLB arbitrator. Sharp guy. He did Kyle Lohse’s arbitration with the Twins. A buddy of mine from Minnesota gave him a hard time — “you gave Lohse $X? He’s rotten!” The arbitrator immediately defended his decision with a statistical analysis of Lohse’s worth — I’m not sure if he used Sabermetric stats because I don’t think I even knew what they were at the time. I guess my point (finally!) is that he’s not really a baseball guy but clearly understood and retained what was argued before him. Extrapolate that over several arbitrations, and I think arbitrators become generally familiar with Sabermetric stats.
by Ray Lankford on Jan 13, 2009 8:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly what I was trying to say.
Your first paragraph phrased it better than I did in seven paragraphs.
I’m always a little suspicious when someone makes a claim that “X professionals are a bunch of dummies and just don’t understand [insert pet subject here]”. No offense to fourstick, but it seems to me to that it’s overly dismissive to just assume that a professional doesn’t know how to do their job. Are there plenty of instances where that’s true? Sure. But that shouldn’t speak for the whole.
"Chokes it hard down on the knob from the right side. Stands erect deep in the box."
by arch support on Jan 13, 2009 9:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think fourstick nailed it
arbitrators know their profession, but their profession is “arbitration”, not “statistical analysis of baseball players”.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 13, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But knowing baseball statistics isn't "their job"
Arbitration is. They are arbitrators who see different cases of arbitration between union members and business executives in all facets of the legal system each year. They don’t need to be skilled in evaluating baseball talent, the members of each counsel need to be. I really don’t think that using sabermetric tools to accomplish this will be effective simply because most of the tools are too complicated to understand without knowing the practice in which they are used. It’s easier to compare them using statistics that an everyday baseball fan would know and recognize.
That said, I think that the arbitrators used by major league baseball are very, very smart men when it comes to determining what is fair for both sides. If you read the book on the history of the baseball players union you will get a very good impression of the arbitration process. The book is antiquated and there are more rules now, but most of the arbitrators in the book were brought in for their expertise in deciding what was fair for both sides, not determining who was a better player.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
I am gonna have to go back to using the preview button, because not only does my spell-check not know that sabermetric is a word, it decides it is okay to delete key words in my replies
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 11, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing
it adds words as well.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it seems that way
I have made drunken comments that made more sense than that last line.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 11, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
anybody
when does a type a free agent no longer cost a team a draft pick? Isn’t there a certain date?
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 10:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
If you don’t know, then I’m speechless. When I read your question, I thought about posting it on Future Redbirds hoping erik would know and then I checked to see who was asking the question…….
Btw, I’m of no help but was wondering this same thing yesterday. I can’t imagine guys like Juan Cruz and Orlando Cabrera not being signed by anyone simply because they’re Type A’s so it’s got to expire at some point, right?
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 10, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the only thing I can find
that even approaches addressing this topic is this thread that, incidentally, includes some of our members. In any case, mlb traderumors has nothing about it. Keith Law’s post from a couple of years ago has nothing on it and Buster Olney’s post from a couple days ago about type A free agents being in “purgatory” has nothing on it.
From that I’m going to conclude that there is, in fact, no doubt beyond which players lose their Type A status. Is it possible that certain free agents may go unsigned, or get really low value contracts next month or in March simply b/c they’re type A free agents? How cheap would Juan Cruz have to be before it becomes worth it to lose a 1st round draft pick for him?
by chuckb on Jan 10, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“How cheap would Juan Cruz have to be before it becomes worth it to lose a 1st round draft pick for him?”
Can he pay us money to play?
by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
to answer my own question
it’s not until after the rule 4 draft, or so i was able to find
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
to complete my conversation w/myself
that sucks.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not complete yet
when’s the rule 4 draft?
by chuckb on Jan 10, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that would be the amateur draft right?
so June. The crazy thing is, if there were every going to be a year someone was left, this might be it. Okay, things can’t get THAT crazy.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 10, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
June 6
or there abouts
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wonder
if it’s may 1, like when fa’s can sign with old team that offered arb?
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jan 10, 2009 11:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
they can do that now
the new CBA changed that rule
by chuckb on Jan 10, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If this has already been covered, I'll probably look like an idiot, oh well
According to ESPN Hot Stove,
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove08/index
the Padres don’t really have a CF, perhaps we could stick it to the Cubs and get an ace pitcher in Peavy for a package of Ankiel. I know we discussed dealing Ludwick to them for Peavy, but what about a package of Ankiel, Schumaker, and Freese for Peavy and perhaps another prospect?
Other ideas:
Ankiel and Skip to the nationals for Anderson Hernandez, John Lannon, and another prospect
Ankiel and another prospect to the Blue Jays for Jesse Carlson
by Taskmaster on Jan 10, 2009 11:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Padres would laugh at that trade offer
No way would we get Peavy for Ankiel, Skip and Freese.
by bmorgan on Jan 11, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
It wasnt meant to be a perfect idea, mainly just to get some conversation, ideas etc. goin.
by Taskmaster on Jan 11, 2009 12:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Peavy thing has been beaten to death
and if it were actually possible to get him for as little as Ankiel, Skip and Freese (who, btw, SD just recently traded to us), then the Cards probably should have done it yesterday.
by bmorgan on Jan 11, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Chris Young
How about Ank +freese+schu for Chris Young. I know he only pitched 100 innings last year but this was mainly due to a cosmetic injury so it shouldnt effect his pitching. Other than this he has had three straight good if not great years especially considering the imo bargain contract he signed (due 4.5 mil this year and 6.25 next!!). Anyone one else interested in this?? Plus the fact that he wont have to pitch to pujols again will surely help his pysche ;)
by kopite92 on Jan 12, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately
All the reasons you list for why he’s a good option are also the same reasons why he’s a good candidate to hang around in SD.
I’d love this, though. I just don’t think Ank/Freese/Schu would be enough.
by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2009 12:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably
Because they are asking too much for him.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder
Would they give us Peavy for Ankiel and my left arm?
by Taskmaster on Jan 11, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It would
probably pitch about as well as Mulder’s left arm.
That was bad, I know…
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm just gonna throw this out there
not advocating, just wanna hear the arguments…
the problem is pitching, but w/a lack of impact arms in the Cards price range (w/the exception Sheets will sign at a discount b/c of injury hist.), should the Cards take a look at the Orlando Hudson?
The good: He’s found a tepid market and should come well under 10 mil, barring the Mets move Castillo.
He’s a 3 win player if he can rediscover his fielding ability.
The bad: Type A FA
He may never find the the D again.
Recovering from a wrist injury, I believe.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 11:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
"the" Orlando Hudson
use the preview button next time, genius.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 11, 2009 1:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if we can get "the" Orlando Hudson
I would be okay with it. Hell, I would be happy with it. I am still holding out hope that AK is traded, and while I would prefer we got a SP, if we could get nothing more than a Garland type I wouldn’t be too upset with a signing of Hudson. If Hudson is healthy, I would really be happy with our MIF for the first time in several years.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 11, 2009 1:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Totally Unnecessary, does the word “the” really offend you that much?
by Taskmaster on Jan 11, 2009 1:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was replying to himself
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What about
Signing Hudson and then Looper for a cheap 1 year deal. I would rather get a good SP, but this could be an acceptable* backup plan.
*I shuddered while typing this. Just so you know.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course,
deal? not deal. Idiot
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Totally Uncalled for. No name calling!
;-)
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No kidding
I should flag that jerk thegodfather. What a tool!
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know about that
But you just called him a name. NO NAME CALLING!
FLAGGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Two things would have to happen
- He would have to sign for less than what Mark Ellis signed for (2Y$11M). I know that’s insanely cheap, but he’s not currently a three win player and would have to improve drastically to be a three win player.
- He would have to pass an extensive physical so that we can be sure that the wrist is going to be better than 90% at some point.
I’d rather wait and see if he gets any offers and then sign him in spring training for a pittance…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Forgot this as well
What about signing Grudzilanek to a 2 year/6 million dollar deal to perhaps put at 2nd base? He was running really hot until he didn’t play for a long stretch, and batted .299 while he played.
by Taskmaster on Jan 11, 2009 12:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
No
Piling the 2nd base crap heap higher. The guy is a marginal upgrade over Kennedy at absolute best and the team’s biggest flaw is the rotation. This solution doesn’t change anything other than make the team older and with one more bad contract.
Batting average is a very poor measure of a player’s performance. Look at OBP and OPS+.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 11, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Infinitely prefer seeing what Barden/Thurston/Ryan can do to putting grudz back there.
by tom s. on Jan 11, 2009 4:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Barden didn't earn a look-see after the season
he put up in 2008, they just need to release him. I mean c’mon…….at least take a look at him.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 9:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure the Cardinals' scouts did look at him
and probably thought that he wasn’t a major league quality player. Just because they didn’t call him up, doesn’t mean they didn’t do their due diligence.
by azruavatar on Jan 11, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine.
Then send him on his way. It’s not like he’s 22.
I wasn’t implying that they didn’t do their due diligence-I was stating that the NUMBERS say he deserves to be looked at. That’s all. If they have already determined he’s not a major league quality player, get someone else for that roster spot.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“get someone else for that roster spot”
Why? He maybe their best option still. As much as we may hate it at time, they’re not obligated to do what’s best for the player.
by azruavatar on Jan 11, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They should do what's best for the team...
Which means giving guys like Barden a chance at playing in the majors, so he can be evaluated better.
Why not give him a try, instead of picking up other team’s discards, like Floppy, who the Cardinals apparently had no intention of bringing back next year (since it’s not like he could have done much better for the Cardinals). It’s not like they were in the race this year…
Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)
by DiscoJer on Jan 11, 2009 8:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“Which means giving guys like Barden a chance at playing in the majors, so he can be evaluated better.”
This just isn’t how teams operate. If a scout goes and watches someone at AAA and says, I don’t think he’s a major leaguer they don’t all look at each other and then decide that they need to see him in the bigs. You have to trust your scouts to a certain degree.
Other team’s discards might still be better than Barden. There’s a difference between having a good season in AAA and being replacement level in the majors.
by azruavatar on Jan 11, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I totally disagree with this entire line of reasoning
And it is always your argument for players like this too:
“He should be given a shot at winning a job or we should just outright release him and send him on his way.”
What about that makes any sense at all? So we evaluated him and didn’t think he’s make it in the big leagues we should release him? If we try him out there in spring training and he doesn’t win the job we should just let him go? What happens when Kennedy and the backup go down with injuries and we need someone for a couple of weeks to fill in a second base? What if he comes up at that time and pulls a Mike Aviles?
I’m sorry, but why should we always do what’s best for the player when that isn’t what’s best for the organization? Do you honestly think that every free agent and every player in the Cardinals minor league organization gives any mind to whether the organization releases a potentially helpful player?
What’s more, there’s not even a top prospect at second base in the Cardinals minor league organization right now, so why should we release him when he might be the best player at second base in the organization? I don’t see how it makes any sense to do that when we could keep him as an insurance policy all year long and hope that he breaks out at some point.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry if that came off as crass
I just now proofread it…
I’d just like you to explain how it is best for the organization to just cut players loose that we don’t currently have a spot for. I think it is a very poor way of developing depth of personnel at the minor league level.
I honestly don’t think that cutting Barden loose would be the best thing for the player either. Being told you you’re not needed by an organization when you had such a great year in AAA in 2008 would be the ultimate slap in the face.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, gee. Don't be.
I’m done.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then explain yourself!
Now I feel like I didn’t need to apologize…
You seem to have a moral high horse on which you look down on the rest of us when it comes to players you don’t feel are “treated properly”. Major League Baseball is a business, not a daycare. There’s really no room for emotional attachments to players by the front office, it only detracts from being able to make the moves that are necessary to win ballgames each season.
As fans we get the opportunity to have a different view of the game and an emotional attachment to it. That is what draws us to the game and keeps us there, but it lends to bad business decisions.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I did explain myself-in very simple terms.
I wrote two short posts about Brian Barden. And now you are accusing me of being on a moral high horse. They were my opinions, and I obviously have a different opinion than you do.
I don’t usually respond in anger; I apologize for that. But don’t think I should be raked over the coals because I have a different opinion than you do.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry to jump in
But I don’t think fourstick is raking you over the coals because you two have a difference of opinion. I don’t think he’s raking you over the coals at all, actually. He’s disagreeing with your opinion and pointing out why he disagrees. Your opinion is supported by mere conclusory statements; statements that you’ve made before, many times with regard to Anthony Reyes.
I think all that fourstick is trying to do is point out that if the organization followed your line of reasoning, it could lead to absurd results. Disagree with him? Explain why your point still stands, but explain it as opposed to stating it.
by Ray Lankford on Jan 12, 2009 7:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is entirely the point I'm getting at
I know exactly what her point is, i’m just trying to figure out why she thinks that it’s better for both organization and player to do things in the manner she states, and she’s offered no explanation as to why she thinks this way.
I’m not raking her over the coals about her opinion, I’m just trying to find out why she takes this attitude with players in Barden’s situation. I’ve brought this up before in discussions about Anthony Reyes and I still haven’t received an answer.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 9:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To an extent
I agree with Jill. Just because it’s a business doesn’t mean people aren’t worthy of respect. Using a real life example, I worked at Starbucks for 4+ years. We had health benefits (as long as you worked 20 hrs a week), we had 401(k) matching, we received bonuses if the company did well, we were trained properly. One of the company’s guiding principles was that all Starbucks employees treat each other and the customer with dignity and respect. For a service job, it was awesome. I know plenty of people who have “real” jobs that are treated far worse than Starbucks used to treat their employees.
Notice that I said “used to.” Starbucks screwed themselves through rapid expansion. Existing employees were sent to new stores (usually only two of them) where they had to train 10+ people on their own at once. New people never got trained properly, beverage quality went down, same store sales went down, employees that had been with the company a long time got burnt out and quit. New people quit because they were in over their heads. Starbucks used to have the best turnover rates in the food/service industry. That all changed in about 18 months. And yet, Starbucks kept expanding in order to keep stock prices up. They became less choose-y in the their real estate. It snow-balled out of control.
Today, Starbucks is a mess. The stock is down to like $8 a share. Employee health care costs went up. Starbucks is no longer matching 401(k), unless they feel like it, and there is no set rate. They took the “respect and dignity” line out of the mission statement! The business model is inconsistent and new promotions are rolling out with very little notice and little time to train employees. Since the employees are unhappy, the company is not going to rebound. For Starbucks, everything begins and ends with service. If customers aren’t being treated well, they’re not going to come in. And if employees aren’t being treated well, customers aren’t going to be treated well.
All of this is to say that the way you treat employees matters. It has an effect on business. And if you treat your employees poorly, they will not perform as well as you want them too, and they will not encourage others to work for the same company.
I think with baseball, we forget these guys are human. They aren’t just commodities. They have feelings and thoughts and deserve respect from their employers. I’m not 100% behind what Jill is saying. But I do see her point. And I also see the value in treating people like people, and not like items. That said, these people are seriously well-paid. League minimum is more than most of us will ever earn in a year. I think many of them see the paycheck as respect, and not necessarily the interpersonal relationships. And I think we all use this as a justification for the job insecurity that the players have, especially the marginal players. Yes, it is part of the business. Yes, they are all adults. But ending things on a pleasant note – like a phone call, or a handshake, whatever – sends a better message about the organization.
In the end, there is something to be said about treating people well, and there is a perception among some fans that the Cardinals – and other teams – don’t always treat people well.
by spants on Jan 12, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with any of that at all
What I fail to understand is how cutting a guy from a AAA roster is better for him and better for us? I certainly don’t think that it’s better for Barden — the kid has worked hard on his game the last two years, made the Olympic team, and then he gets cut by the Cardinals organization because their scouts don’t feel that he’s big league material, without even giving him a shot to win the job? There’s not much more heartbreaking than that. I also don’t think it’s good for the Cardinals either in reality or in perception. If the best interests of your organization are always focused around what’s best for your minor league prospects you aren’t going to win too many games.
There’s also this perception that someone like Barden feels mistreated, given the quotes that some other Cardinal farmhands (both pitchers) have said over the past 2 years. I don’t think either of those pitchers was ever going to make it here: both were headstrong, both spoke up a little to much about certain things that should be kept in the clubhouse, and neither performed at a particularly high level when given the opportunities that they were given, save for one great World Series start.
I don’t understand the perception that this organization doesn’t treat people well. Most of the veteran players who have played here, and many of the younger ones too, have great respect for the Cardinal tradition and fanbase. I’ve yet to hear a veteran go out and badmouth the organization as a whole after leaving. Sure, there have been some players who have feuded publicly with Tony or Dave, but they don’t call out the Cardinals organization as one that you wouldn’t want to play for.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I should've clarified.
As an overall theme, I agree with Jill that baseball players deserve to be treated as human beings and are worthy of respect even though they are just one teeny, tiny cog in a big machine.
I do not agree that we should cut players that don’t fit our immediate needs. I think we should try to use that talent to acquire the players we do need. Somehow that whole “he should be cut” thing slipped my mind. Sorry.
by spants on Jan 12, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'd love it..
… if someone could provide a single reason why the Cards should outright cut a potentially useful player.
no other organizations just cuts fringe-y prospects in the high minors for no particular reason, so why should the Cards? it makes no sense at all. organizational depth is a very important thing, especially at a position of weakness currently held by a guy who’s been an injury-risk the past few years. and i very much doubt that if the Cards cut Barden he’s gonna get a multi-year, MLB contract someplace else. he’d be pretty lucky to find another AAA job.
by kindred on Jan 12, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just 'cause you mentioned it
Grudz ’08
OB% .345
OPS+ 100
(I still wouldn’t want to sign him)
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 11, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly average in every sense of the word
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 11, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that your birthday?
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's Grudzy's
He’s getting up there for a second baseman
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 12, 2009 8:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i said Barton
from those choice,
I just dont think anyone is going to trade a good pitcher for one year of Ankiel.
Its just not going to happen,
So I send Barton down to AAA or trade him for whatever, because we will probably never see him again. He is way back on the OF depth chart.
that would give us an OF of Ludwick, Ras, Ank
then Id keep Skip and Mather on the bench.
We would still have to do something about Duncan, but I dont know what. i think he falls into our pit of OFs with very little trade value.
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 11, 2009 3:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
and besides that will give us our most potent OF
Lud, Ank, Ras would be really solid all the way across, but if you replace Ank with skip, or whatever its a big hit.
I suppose IF Mather really comes up big or something it wouldnt be so bad, but I doubt it
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 11, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The only problem I see
Is that since TLR wants a leadoff hitter, Skip is going to play a lot. I also forsee Mather hitting his way into a lot more PAs, sort of like Ludwick did last year, though almost surely not to that extent. This would be the best outfield, but I think that Skip would take too many PAs from the other 4 more capable guys.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I say MO needs to
take all Tony’s toys away. Miles is already gone, Izzy looks to be gone, and Skip should be next. If we can get a promising prospect at any level for him he should be moved.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 11, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That seems like
a smart idea. That would give PAs to guys with more upside and guys with more talent. Skip’s a fine player, but we don’t need him. This could be an ideal spring training move. See what we have, let other teams see what they have, then find a good new home for Skippy. (Sounds like I’m talking about a dog) Question is, who would lead off?
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It would pretty much have to be
Rasmus leading off. TLR indicated he wouldn’t have a problem with batting him leadoff whenever it is that he is deemed to be ready.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 11, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds good to me
That means that he would be given a lot of PAs pretty much by default since he’s the leadoff guy
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel was my choice
For many of the reasons listed above.
-He would bring back the most value
-He has one year left on his contract
-He will be due a significant salary increase
In terms of the other players, Barton probably has the least value. Skip also makes sense for a trade, assuming they don’t try him at 2nd base.
by JWO on Jan 11, 2009 10:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I happen to think Brian Barton is the PTBNL in the Greene deal.
It makes sense for the Padres.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that even allowed?
I can’t remember a major league player ever being on a PTBNL list. I was thinking it was a minor league pitcher.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is only allowed
if he is in the minors when the deal is made. Unless the rule has changed the PTBNL has to be traded to a different league
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 11, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the rule has changed
I had some confusion about this a couple of months ago and now I can’t remember exactly how it was explained to me. But, I do know that Barton was on the active roster at the end of the season.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just looked it up.
You get 6 months to finalize the deal, and the player has to change leagues. Probably not Barden then. I’ll have to go back through the name cards now…..unless they can send him back to Memphis and then move him to the Padres. Nah, probably not that either. Got to be someone else.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I meant Barton, not Barden. Although it could be Barden, no?
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember hearing
that the ptbnl was not going to be someone that was currently on the 40 man roster.
so that excludes Barton…and Barden too I beleive.
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe
by fatbellyjefferson on Jan 12, 2009 9:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your points are contradictory
Since Ankiel has only one year left on his contract and is due a significant salary increase works to lessen what the Cardinals could ask for in return as opposed to someone like Ryan Ludwick (who matches up better with Ankiel than anyone else does) who is cheap and under team control for another 2 or 3 years.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he means value
As opposed to any of the other players aside from Ludwick. I don’t know about anyone else but I’m content with not trading Luddy, we’re not going to come close to fair value for him this offseason.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying I want to trade Ludwick
I was just using him as a comparison.
Frankly, I’d love to trade Ankiel, but I’m just saying I don’t think he’s quite as valuable to other teams as he is valued by the Cardinals and, more importantly, to Cardinal fans who many hold him extremely high.
Plus, he’s still fairly inexperienced, 30 years old and has a history of injuries and is coming off one that wrecked his final two months last season. Almost everything about him lowers his trade value.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I didn't think
that you were saying you wanted to trade Luddy. I agree with everything you just said. I was just trying to better explain what I thought JWO meant, sorry for the confusion.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 12, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Michael Young wants out of Texas
and takers?
link
he has 5 years & $80mill left on his deal. ouch.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 11, 2009 10:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yes
IF
1)The Rangers eat a LOT of salary
2)We can play him at 2B
Since they were wanting to move him to 3rd, we could send them Freese as part of the deal.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Keep in mind he's 32 years old
He’ll be 37 when the contract expires.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I know
they have to eat A LOT of salary ;)
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they did it with ARod, so they might do it again
but if he wont play 2nd & they asked for way to much & don’t pick up any of his salary, i say no thanks.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 11, 2009 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well . . .
he DID come up as a 2B, so that’s not totally unreasonable.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 12, 2009 1:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why not move K-Bot to 2B
And keep Young at SS….?
I’m thinking if he didn’t want to play at 3B there would be little chance he would want to play at 2B. He probably wants to stay in the exact position he’s in now. I mean he did just win a GG, so I think he deserves a little recognition for his ability there. (And no. A Gold Glove is not the say all and end all measure of defensive capability, I know)
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 12, 2009 8:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
Young is a bad SS and Greene is a good one. You’d be puting the two guys at their worst spot, not their best. It would be like having Grady Sizemore (11.5 uzr/150), then acquiring Nate McLouth (-15.1) and moving Sizemore to left so McLouth could play CF.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 13, 2009 8:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree now
I made the earlier comment w/o looking up Young’s sabermetrics…I just went off of what I already knew about him. Even though I made this statement, I don’t want us to get Young. Our priority 1 is starting pitching. Our MIF will be fine w/ Khalil and AK, I was just tossing a random thought out there.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 13, 2009 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd agree wholeheartedly
As nice as it would be to improve the bats, the starting rotation is a big house of Cards. (I like what I did there…self-+1)
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 13, 2009 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha!
I’ll add my own +1
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 13, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sounds like a good fit.
freese would make sense to fill the hole at 3b.
by tom s. on Jan 11, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
though i think the Red Sox would be the obvious target for this one.
They’ve got the money, the gap at SS, and they’re desperate to improve the offense w/ Manny gone. They could also move Young around in later years to a corner spot to take care of the age issue.
by tom s. on Jan 11, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's true
Jed Lowrie is good, but he could stand to use more time in the minors. They will probably trade from their surplus in the pitching department, which is probably something the Texans could use.
by Taskmaster on Jan 11, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Texans need a linebacker.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he doesn't need 5 more years in the minors
the Red Sox are a smart team and put a premium on defense. Young is one of the most undeserving GG winners in a long time and is a crummy defender. His bat is declining and that contract is just plain awful.
Young is a horrible trade waiting to happen.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 11, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
here's the Dallas Morning News story
it leads us to believe he’s known about the move for a while now & was never happy about it. so if he doesn’t want to play 3rd & wants to stay at SS, i really can’t see anyone willing to take on his salary. even a big market club like the sawx.
does anyone know anything about the kid the Rangers want to give a shot at the starting job? is he any good? according to that article he had 32 errors last season at AA. is he really an upgrade over Young? or is something else going on like they are trying to dump his salary and/or get the highest value for him now that he won a GG?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 12, 2009 12:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His Contract
has 5 years, $62 million left. not too bad…
"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean
by Molina4MVP on Jan 12, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He has 5Y$80M left on his deal
Also includes limited no trade protection until 2011, when his 10/5 rights would kick in, but they wouldn’t kick if he was traded, so you’d probably be able to move him in his 2012 season assuming that any team would take him at that point.
He’s due $16M annually over the life of the deal with $15M being deferred. If Texas would pick up the deferred $15M and another $10M over the life of the deal, then I might consider it since he’d effectively be making $11M per season then instead of $16M. It would also make him much easier to trade after the 2011 season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why couldn't the Rangers just make it easy on us
and have a conflict with Ian Kinsler that causes them to want to trade him? They’re shopping the wrong middle infielder!!!!!!!!!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 12, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I was mislead by MLBTradeRumors
Tim wrote that he “is owed $62MM over the next five seasons (some of it deferred) and controls his fate with his full no-trade clause.” (and he had a link for his contract at: http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/story/1136636.html )
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/evaluating-mich.html
"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean
by Molina4MVP on Jan 12, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
=santa's cost per year
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jan 12, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Career wOBA: .343
Career 2B UZR/150: -3.3
Career SS UZR/150: -12.0
by astrostl on Jan 12, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone think Ray Durham might be a fit?
He’s right handed so he could platoon with Kennedy, he still had some speed and on base skills, and he’ll be super cheap…
Thoughts?
www.salukihoops.com
by salukihoops on Jan 12, 2009 10:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yep
he was his usual 3 WAR after a down season, but how old is he now?
If no one is calling for O Hudson, I imagine Durham would come quite cheaply. He’s probably more of a reserve now, but then again so are our other options.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 12, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think they'll be able to land him for 1 year and 1MM if they want him
Durham has good on base skills and still has a hint of speed. This would be a good pickup.
The bench usually consists of 5 players. 2 OF, 1 Catcher, 2 Infielders.
If Durham is one of those infielders he would platoon with Kennedy to help boost production at 2b.
The other middle infielder would need to be able to play SS, so it would probably be Ryan or Barden.
Mather is right handed and can play 3rd and 1st in a pinch so he would need to be one 2 reserve outfielders. However, if Glaus went on the DL, Freese or Anderson would have to be called up.
Signing Durham would help give the Cardinals a nice table setter for Albert and co. on the cheap. He would really make the lineup look nice.
Skip
Durham
Pujols
Ludwick
Ankiel
Glaus
Molina
Green
Durham can also play OF if needed, and there’s no doubt Tony would call on him to do that at some point in the season.
www.salukihoops.com
by salukihoops on Jan 12, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
durham's defense
not good enough to help our iffy starting pitching
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 12, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What if we traded glaus, craig, and kennedy....
that would give texas a 3rd baseman for this year and the future, plus an extra MI while there young SS is developing this year. Maybe we throw in a couple mid to upper level prospects if they eat a decent chunk of his salary. If it could get down to 5/$50mil that wouldn’t be too bad, especially considering dumping $16mil this year in glaus and kennedy. It would solve the rotating door at MI for the cardinals, as well as give freese/wallace/mather/ryan a chance to play this year. I am not sure if young/freese-wallace is any better this year than glaus/kennedy, but kennedy and glaus will both be gone next year, and I am not sure when the next time a MI of this quality would come at this price in free agency. Texas will get the benifit of being able to trade glaus at the deadline or pick up a first round draft pick, as he should be a type A FA.
Is it weird that I would rather the payroll be more like the Marlins than the Yankees?
by ForesterShane on Jan 12, 2009 10:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Cardinals aren't going to trade Glaus.
He has a full NTC and part of the initial trade out of Toronto was a gentlemen’s agreement that he would fulfill his contract in STL.
by azruavatar on Jan 12, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i cant belive you passed up the chance to say
No Trade Claus…
and went with NTC
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 12, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Some things you're not thinking about here
- Glaus would have to approve that trade, which he might, because he’d probably put up crazy good offensive numbers in Texas in his contract year. I still don’t think the Cardinals would consider trading him.
- Young would improve second base offensively, but he’s not near as good as Kennedy with the glove, and I’m not sure it offsets what Glaus will put up over Freese both offensively and defensively. We haven’t even seen Freese at the big league level yet. He’s not as good of a prospect as Kevin Kouzmanoff was, and Kouz put up only a 104 OPS+ his first full year in the bigs, while Glaus put up a 124 OPS+ in a off year for him in 2008. Freese would have to put up a 100 OPS+ and Young would have to improve his 96 OPS+ last year to around 125 in a new league and a bigger ballpark in order to make that a net offensive gain for the Cardinals. Come to think of it, if we include Craig in the deal, we would need career best numbers from Young to win the trade in 2009.
- He would have to move to second base — and he doesn’t seem like he wants to move off of SS.
Wallace isn’t ready for the big time yet, and still might not stick at third base.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not even convinced #2 is true
young’s career OPS+ is 102, and he is trending the wrong way severely, while our 2B’s as a whole (including Felipe’s hot streak) had a 103 OPS+ last year.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 12, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's a pretty safe bet that he'd put up around a career average OPS+ with the Cardinals next year
He’s changing into a league with worse pitching, and he got hurt by not getting to hit in his ballpark against his own pitchers last season. Twelve games against his own pitching staff and he probably bumps his OPS+ up by 10, lol! I think that would balance out the park factor difference.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope we don't get to find out
as I think it would be a long shot given his very pedestrian away splits and his age. He is not at all interesting to me.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 12, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it's been a rough day here
Im a Colts fan, and I just heard that Dungy will retire. Bad way to start off the day.
Sorry, that’s the wrong blog to say that, but back to what I was going to say before i posted above. If we are going to trade from anywhere, it’s going to be from our pool of outfielders. I doubt that Mo would move Glaus anywhere. He would most likely move someone like Ankiel, Ludwick as the centerpiece of a package, but hey, I have been wrong before. (Like when I thought Dungy wasn’t going to retire, Sigh)
by Taskmaster on Jan 12, 2009 2:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
strictley hypothetical question here...no chance of happening, but...
Would you trade Chris Carpenter for Michael Young (assuming the rangers paid the deffered portion of his contract, which would put him at 5 years 62 million)?
I hate winter!!!!
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 12, 2009 3:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Let the hype begin!
Since we’re probably not going to get a flashy Japanese import, I thought I’d try my hand at hyping up an even more exotic and mysterious foreign pitcher for the Cardinals to (most likely not) look into—Yadel Martí! He’s (I think?) a starter (actually I’m pretty sure) and one of two recent Cuban defectors who want to break into MLB. His comrade-in-arms Yasser Gomez doesn’t hold much interest as he’s an outfielder (maybe he can play second base???) (and what’s with all these Cuban/Latin American guys who Y names? Yadier, Yadel, Yasser, Yuniesky, etc.).
Anyway, he was pretty much Cuba’s ace in the WBC, and that’s pretty much all I can find out about him so far, other than some W-L and ERA numbers from various Cuban and international series. The most interesting thing about him and Yasser is cultural as far as I’m concerned, as they actually made a point to say publically that they weren’t simply looking for a payday at NY or Boston, but wanted out of an oppressive system. In all honesty, I think if the Cards ever signed a Cuban defector who made it to the bigs and he was decent, the town would fall in love with him.
by mattybobo on Jan 12, 2009 4:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
And I'm pretty sure I just garnered the quiet wrath of Amaury Martí by saying that last part...
Amaury Martí will not punish me however, because he knows in his wisdom that the inner turmoil and fear I must live with for the rest of my life is worse than any form of punishment.
by mattybobo on Jan 12, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still wish we had been wise enough
to land the top Cuban defector from last year…….I heart you Alexei Ramirez!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 12, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we already did that once
Rene Arocha anyone?
by Woodwork on Jan 13, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmm
Have we entertained the thought of resigning Mulder to be a reliever? he would provide some Lefty depth and he would be pretty cheap :P. Then sign either Sheets or Lowe with the rest and bam, I’m happy :D
by Taskmaster on Jan 12, 2009 6:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
As long as he doesn't have to throw more than six pitches this season.
Because that was his limit last year.
He just has to be very efficient.
by tom s. on Jan 12, 2009 6:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hear he's coming along
No reason he shouldn’t at least double, maybe even triple his production from last season.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jan 12, 2009 8:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is from Buster Olney(I've realized how much admins here respect him :D, but hey)
1. Mark Mulder: He still is just 31 years old, is left-handed and isn’t that far removed from the days when he was a front-of-the-rotation type of guy. And he believes he might have found a solution to his mechanical problem, with the work he’s been doing this winter with a trainer who has increased his range of motion. He’ll throw for scouts in January, and who knows — if he can get back to his old delivery and regain some velocity with the strength and flexibility training he’s been doing, he will be poised for a comeback season.
This is the type of thing that might seem like a long shot — but at the right price, it has a chance to pay off in a big way.
by Taskmaster on Jan 12, 2009 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With the number of
contracts we’ve handed out that seem to be just hoping for the best, I see no reason not to give Mulder another shot. If he’s cheap I wouldn’t mind giving the guy another chance.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 12, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my first question when I read this (I saw it when this came out)
was what perks Mulder’s agent had to throw at Olney to get that write-up.
Come on — Mulder’s been rehabbing for 3 solid years. Can anybody think of a pitcher who went this long away from the game, had this many setbacks and came back to pitch decently? I can’t think of one. If Mulder has “just now” discovered the secret to his shoulder problems, what has he been doing since 2006?
Also, note, the article doesn’t say “i’ve seen mulder pitch and the old mark is back,” it says that mulder reports increased range of motion and plans to throw for scouts at a later date. Yes, pedro martinez reports that he’s throwing 96 MPH heat at his home and maybe he’ll someday stand in front of some GM’s and do it. There’s no meat at all to that article.
Olney also pimps in the same article both Tom Gordon and Eric Gagne. This guy is the king of childlike optimism.
by tom s. on Jan 12, 2009 8:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was the first one
to say the Brewers were going to get CC.
Chuck Norris bows to no man...but he does bow to The Mang.
by miniboscorino on Jan 12, 2009 8:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
his writing is preposterous.
He substitutes vague baseballisms for analysis.
From the same article:
“Tom Gordon: He was awful in 2008, and at age 41 his career might be over. But if he could be had for a minimal base salary, you’d have to think about bringing him on board — because he’s a total pro and one of those pitchers who seemingly has nine lives.”
Translation: He stinks on ice. He probably stinks on ice because he is old and should retire. But he has a big name and used to be good once. So I will ignore all the evidence (he gives up more bb/9, allows more hits/9, walks more batters/9), and spout meaningless garbage like “having nine lives” and is “a total pro” and just hope that maybe consistently declining performance as one ages will suddenly reverse.
by tom s. on Jan 12, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see why
Mulder would continue his attempt at a comeback if he doesn’t think he will be able to do it. It can’t be easy for him, so he must be at least optimistic at his chances of a return. I’m not saying I think that he will come back, but obviously there is some chance.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 12, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see why
we should let players decide when they can no longer play rather than seeking to evaluate them independently.
Maybe Mark Mulder keeps trying to rehab because he loves playing baseball and doesn’t have any idea what to do with himself at 31 if he can’t keep playing. Maybe he likes the idea that he could make millions of dollars if he returns.
You’re not familiar with players who try to play through injury and decreased effectiveness for season after season? This is not even a rare occurrence. There are tons of players who seek to play long past when they should.
I just don’t see why some individual player’s self-evaluation is news or is a basis for offering him a new deal. Let him pitch for scouts. Let’s see this “increased range of motion” before we even talk about it. Mark Mulder is in the “waiting for official retirement” column in my mental baseball spreadsheet. I don’t expect that to change.
by tom s. on Jan 12, 2009 9:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say
"We should sign him now because he still wants to play." I think you are taking these Mulder comments a little too seriously. I don’t think he’s dumb enough to keep trying to return if there is no chance for him. Obviously we should look into it more before offering him a low base, incentive laden deal, but I don’t see why that would be out of the question. Many of these players who play long past when they should are old, not in their low 30s like Mulder.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 12, 2009 9:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why don't you think he's
“dumb enough” to keep trying if there is no chance?
by spants on Jan 12, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because
Going through rehab again just to pitch terribly for scouts would be a lot of hard work and time to put into something that you know wouldn’t work.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 13, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You'd be amazed
at what an ego can do.
by spants on Jan 13, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not so sure, at this point, it's ego
rather it’s more desperation. These guys have played baseball their entire lives and it’s been the number 1 focus in their lives since they were probably 16 years old.
What do you do when you’re 31-35 years old and all you know is baseball and no one will let you do it anymore? It’s not like they need to work for a living, but this sport has consumed their lives and now it’s possibly over. I imagine that would be rather difficult to accept.
I never really understood this until I got out of college. A friend of mine was a gymnast at the college I went to and she was really good. Anyway, one day after we had both graduated, she’s asking me if I knew anything about nursing programs or education programs or whatever. So I asked her why she was thinking of going back to school a year after she graduated. She said she didn’t even know what her degree really meant and didn’t even think she liked it. I was like “why did you choose it” and she said “I was a gymnast. Whatever came after that was secondary. Now I’m not a gymnast anymore and its really starting to sink in that I don’t know what I’m going to do.”
And it’s not like there’s a big professional gymnastics league to strive for, but it was still something that consumed her life just like baseball consumes the lives of baseball players.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 13, 2009 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All of that stuff you're talking about
is ego. I’m not saying he’s any more or less egotistical than anyone else. It’s how he identifies, EVEN THOUGH reality is indicating he should make a change. That is ego.
by spants on Jan 13, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're wrong.
Plain and simple. You are wrong.
Sorry for being so blunt. But if you ever put as much of your life into something that these athletes have done (and I’m guessing you haven’t. And that’s not a shot. I highly doubt any of us has), then it’s extremely difficult to stop doing it.
Most of the time it has nothing to do with ego. But it has everything to do with habit, what you’ve come accustomed to doing every day and the drive and passion that has gotten them this far. That doesn’t just go away. And that is something 99% of people never experience.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 13, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's muscle memory
great musicians and athletes practice so much it’s practically encoded into their blood
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you're both right I think
–noun, plural e⋅gos.
1. the "I" or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.
2. Psychoanalysis. the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.
3. egotism; conceit; self-importance: Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.
4. self-esteem or self-image; feelings: Your criticism wounded his ego.
5. (often initial capital letter) Philosophy.
a. the enduring and conscious element that knows experience.
b. Scholasticism. the complete person comprising both body and soul.
6. Ethnology. a person who serves as the central reference point in the study of organizational and kinship relationships.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 14, 2009 1:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Coincedentally,
I just this evening read this op-ed by former ballplayer Doug Glanville.
He talks about how hard it is to stop identifying as a baseball player, and how almost no one leaves the game on their terms. Quotes of note:
“For the most part, players embrace being ‘the ballplayer.’ This label allows you to be what you always dreamed of being.”
“It takes a lot of introspection to avoid this Superman effect, of feeling heroic and powerful in uniform and ungainly and lost outside of it.”
I think you’re taking offense to my use of the term “ego.” What I mean is the way he identifies, the drive, the ritual, all of it. It all started, long ago, when baseball became more than just a game for Mark Mulder, and instead became an identity. The second he realized he was “different,” baseball took over.
Thus, his ego requires him to keep trucking along, trying to stay a ballplayer. He doesn’t know who else to be, even when all the signs are there that he should become someone else.
I don’t think we’re saying different things. I think the word “ego” has caused a divide. I should’ve been more clear when I first made a comment on this matter.
by spants on Jan 14, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I guess I'm misunderstanding.
I didn’t realize you were using the word “ego” in the more clinical terms. Nowadays, when someone says “it’s his ego” what they are saying is he has and inflated ego of himself in which decision making centers around “what’s good for me and me only because I’m the only MFer that matters”.
Kinda like CardsFanInChitown’s 3rd definition of “ego” which I think is the “common” definition when you associate “ego” with “professional athlete” as opposed to how someone identifies with themselves positively or negatively.
My bad.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 14, 2009 7:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still think
it is Mulder’s Id.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Jan 14, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I seriously disagree with the notion that Mark Mulder's opinion of his condition
is worth relying on for anything. In addition to the unlikely possibility that he deliberately presents himself as healthy when he’s not just to make a buck, I would embrace the notion that Mulder WISHES that he were healthy enough to pitch and that wish colors his belief. So every day that he wakes up feeling slightly better than the day before, he thinks of as evidence that he’ll return to a pro role. I can easily see that happening. I can see him doctor-shopping until someone tells him that he could someday pitch. Not out of dishonesty, but irrational wishful thinking. I can readily see that happening.
And I also don’t like the “some chance” or “no chance” standard we’re using. Of course everybody has “some chance” of returning to form. Maybe Mulder will return to form. Maybe Kelvin Jimenez will rip it up this year. But at some point we decided, not that Kelvin Jimenez could under no circumstances be a major leaguer, but that the chance was not high enough to keep testing him out. Which is more likely: Mark Mulder pitching 40 innings at an ML level effectively, or Kelvin Jimenez? Honestly, I’d answer Jimenez. and I don’t think he’s worth keeping around.
by tom s. on Jan 12, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
I seriously disagree with the notion that Mark Mulder’s opinion of his condition is worth relying on for anything.
The man has no say in how he actually feels and what he is capable of when it is his own body? I agree that he could be driven to some extent by wishful thinking, but c’mon. The dude knows how he feels now and how he has felt in the past when he was in form. He has a better basis for comparison on that than any of us do.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 12, 2009 11:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree. I think individuals are generally in a terrible position
to self-evaluate. Judging yourself is the opposite of objectivity.
I will say I didn’t say Mulder’s opinion is worthless, just not worth relying on. I think there’s a distinction there.
But before you say it, yes, I do have a terrible mistrust of human nature.
by tom s. on Jan 13, 2009 3:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently
this topic has hit some sort of nerve with people (not singling you out, tom s.) I see absolutely no harm in at least seeing what Mulder’s got. Obviously he thinks he can pitch again, and evidently that means more to me than you. If it costs NOTHING to go watch him pitch, there is no harm in it. If indeed he can pitch, we may as well sign him since we’ve paid him millions over the past couple of years to do nothing. I for one would be bothered to see Mulder come back and pitch with success in any role for another team when he did so little for us. If you that the idea of letting a scout look at him when he throws is ridiculous because Kelvin Jiminez has a better chance of pitching well at the ML level then we disagree fundamentally.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 13, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mulder
I don’t think he’s dumb enough to keep trying to return if there is no chance for him.
Its definitely not dumb to try and get a job that pays millions.
by Ray Lankford on Jan 13, 2009 8:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct.
But he’s not going to get millions if he can’t pitch. Which is my point.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 13, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right but that's pretty circular, isn't it?
He can make millions if he can pitch. You are saying he’s dumb if he keeps trying but failing. I’m saying, given the millions on the line, he’s not dumb either way. Therefore, I don’t think we can look at these reports and say, “well, he says he can pitch, and he’d be stupid to try and come back if he couldn’t do it, so he must be legit.”
He has every incentive to try and come back, even if he has nothing left, because of the financial incentives for doing so. In order to get signed, he has to convince at least one team that he can pitch. So whether he actually can or he can’t, he’s going to say he can (and do his damndest to back it up) in the hopes that some team will believe him and take a flyer on him. He’s not bearing any risk, while the team that signs him bears all the risk. How is it dumb to assume no risk but stand to reap enormous benefits?
by Ray Lankford on Jan 13, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is correct
But he has to be able to convince a team that he can pitch. This means he will have to impress their scouts. If he knows there is no chance for him then it’s stupid for him to keep trying because no one is going to sign him if he doesn’t show positive signs to the scouts. Of course it would be best for him if he could come back, but he has to convince a team that he can pitch. By offering to pitch for scouts, this must mean that he thinks that he has a shot at earning a contract. I’m not saying that I think he can pitch because he says so, only that maybe it’s worth it to have a look at what he’s got.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 13, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand
But 2 points:
1) I agree with tom s. above and think a person’s self-evaluation of their own talents is highly suspect, especially given the incentives for being able to pitch again.
2) Maybe its a semantic point, but I still don’t think anyone would be stupid in offering to pitch for scouts even if they don’t think they have what it takes. What do they have to lose? Hell, I’ll throw the ball around if I know that I risk nothing but stand to gain everything.
Maybe Mulder thinks, “I might be done, but I’m going to give it one last shot before I call it quits – at least then scouts will confirm what I already know.” Or, “I have to catch lightning in a bottle to impress the scouts, but I’d really like to retire in the Bahamas, and I think one or two more years of pitching will do it for me.” Or he may be deluding himself. Point is, there are many reasons to be skeptical of his attempted comeback, and in my opinion, few reasons to conclude that “well, he would be stupid to do this if he didn’t think he had it left.”
by Ray Lankford on Jan 13, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously the guy has no shame
He just took a gazillion dollars from the Cardinals and he is hoping there are other suckers out there who will pay him to work out. I know that sounds harsh, but I think the Cubbies will get more IP from Miles than Mulder will ever post.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 12, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So
You actually think he’s worth more than 1 million dollars :D
I think he’s worth 1 mill at max
by Taskmaster on Jan 12, 2009 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's why it'd be nice of him
to sign a league min minor league contract as a “thank you” to us.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 12, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He would have to look pretty good
in his throwing session to be worth even one more dollar.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 12, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
apparently...
… Braves offer Lowe 3/$45 + option (or something like that) and Mets offer Perez 3/$30 (or something like that). details aren’t entirely clear, but that seems to be the opening bids.
anybody want those guys at those prices? i’d be a bit squeamish about the BoB making either offer.
by kindred on Jan 12, 2009 11:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Lowe seems okay. I'd rather have a three year than a four or five for Lowe for age reasons.
This year would be tight financially to pay for it — we’d be done — but afterwards, we’d be set. All of Piniero’s and part of Glaus’ salary would pay for him. And Lowe + Freese/Wallace in 2010 and 2011 is better than Pineiro and Glaus in 2009.
by tom s. on Jan 12, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I say go for it
what the heck
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 12, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely not the Perez deal.
I just don’t trust that guy at all. Maybe he’s not bad for the team or anything, but you asked if we want those guys at that price, and as far as I’m concerned . . . not a chance.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 12, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Oliver Perez is only getting 3/$30 M
we got freaking ripped on the Lohse deal. GAWD!
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 12, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lohse ain't great,
and is overpaid, but Perez isn’t better by a lot, if at all
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 12, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Other than last season absurdly low numbers
for Lohse, they’ve been pretty similar pitchers FIP-wise over their careers. The extra year and the extra $11 M would be nice to have back.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 13, 2009 12:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well...
… that’s the rumored offer. he hasn’t signed yet.
looking over their careers, Perez seems to have higher highs and lower lows. Lohse has been less volatile and more steady, and that’s where his value comes from. in the parlance, he has been more “cosistent”.
if it takes 4 years to get Lowe, and it probably would for the Cards to get him, i think i’d have to back off. dude’s gonna be 37 this year, and i just don’t think we can afford it with Carp, Lohse, and Waino already extended long-term.
at this point, i say blow it all on a two-year deal for Sheets.
by kindred on Jan 13, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He'll be 36 in June
But I agree, 4 years is pushing it. We have to go for Sheets.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 13, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Lowe got 4 years
then I would think Sheets can be had for 3. Especially as the number of team with payroll available to bid on him are dwindling. Really wouldn’t surprise me to see Sheets eventually sign a deal with 2 years guaranteed and a 3rd option that vest if throw 150+ innings each of the prior to years. The kind of money were talking about for Fuentes is now starting to edge closer to the neighborhood of Sheets.
by jjray on Jan 13, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Arguing about Lohse's deal every time a new rumor comes out is shortsighted
It is also like arguing about the Piniero deal in July of 2008. Should we have signed Joel to a two year deal? That’s debatable, but his numbers since coming over in August of 2007 looked pretty good, there were very few pitchers on the market in our price range, so the Piniero deal looked like an acceptable one at that time. Remember, most people thought Kyle Lohse was going to get a 4Y$40M deal LAST YEAR, and then ended up signing for peanuts in spring training, when he would have been worth $11M last year by WAR value.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Had we waited until December to start offering contracts, Lohse probably wouldn’t be getting the money that he got from us and probably would remain unsigned. I say probably because we don’t have any idea what would have happened to the market had we not signed him. I didn’t like the deal at the time, but just because there are rumored deals to other pitchers on January 12th doesn’t make his deal that was finalized on the last week of December any better.
Should we have waited? Possibly, but then we’d be looking for 2 starting pitchers right now instead of one, and someone else may have signed Kyle Lohse to a contract similar to what he’s getting from us. That signing may have prompted other teams looking for starting pitching to snap up guys like Looper, Lowe, and Perez and they would no longer be out there. You literally have no idea what the market would look like right now had Lohse hit the free agent market instead of re-signing with the Cardinals. Free agent signings are not mutually exclusive events, they all are tied together in terms of value, talent, and timing. I’m not saying that the market hinges on Kyle Lohse, but he may have effected the thinking of a lot of other clubs.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 9:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
While I agree that evaluating a deal in the context of the time
it was made is extremely important, the Pineiro deal was a bad idea from day one as many people pointed out. Numbers from August onward shouldn’t convince you that his previous 3 year track record was wrong.
I still don’t think the Lohse deal is as bad as it’s being characterized. He’s been a 3 win pitcher for two years in a row now (I’m using Fangraph values but I may revise this statement once their fully explained.) and he isn’t being paid that much. The Cardinals still have a problem with their rotation being thin. The question with the Lohse contract isn’t the dollars (they’re reasonable given his WAR) but the marginal gains between Lohse @ 10M/Y and a better pitcher @ 16M/Y.
by azruavatar on Jan 13, 2009 9:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't know you guys talked in here
anyways, the longer the off-season goes on the more I have to wonder if it would behoove (yes, i said behoove) the Cardinals to sign a veteran OF’er like Abreu or Dunn to a 1 year/dirt cheap contract if they are still sitting out there.
I know we have absolutely no place to put either of them but my goodness, both are quality hitters and if they come at dirt cheap I think you have to take talent. Hell, you can trade them a month into the season if they show they can hit (which we all know they can).
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 12, 2009 11:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
are you trying to attract the Moocow?
I wouldn’t mind getting Dunn… but other than that, any other OF (well, except Manny) would aggravate me greatly.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 12, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sign Dunn for one year to play 1B
and let Pujols have the 237 surgeries his body needs and take the year off!
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Jan 13, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's down to 237?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2009 1:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
I laughed
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 13, 2009 9:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have Abreu than Dunn.
He doesn’t hit as many homers, but he still drives in 100 guys per season and still has some speed on his legs. I bet you not many people know that he steals over 20 bases each season.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 13, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Per linear weights a SB is worth +.22 and a CS is -.38. In 2008 Abreu stole 22 bases (4.84) and was caught 11 times (-4.18) for less than one third of a run worth of value. 2007 was a bit better, 25 SB (5.5) and 8 CS (-3.04) for about 2.5 runs. I’m not surprised to see a 33 y/o outrun a 34 y/o, though, and he’s still aging.
As for RBIs, outside of HRs they require baserunners. That has nothing to do with the individual, or to put it another way Albert Pujols would probably have 0 RBIs if his teammates were 8 of me.
An easy way to compare the two is using Wins Above Replacement (WAR) from fangraphs.com. It factors offense (wOBA including SB/CS) and defense (UZR) as well as positional adjustments. According to that Abreu has been worth 3.3, 2.2, and 1.1 WAR over the last 3 years while Dunn was 2.0, 3.1, and 1.9. So Dunn was worth more and he’s still on the better side of 30.
Summary: SB has to be contrasted with CS, RBIs stink, and Dunn is better than Abreu :)
by astrostl on Jan 13, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with all but one thing
Albert Pujols would probably have 0 RBIs if his teammates were 8 of me.
He’d have at least 37 — because that’s how many homers he hit…..lol!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
Albert would have 633 BB’s since a pitcher would have no problem getting the 8 astrostl batters out ;)
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 13, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep :) Intentional walk on every plate appearance, unless by some miracle the bases are loaded. Even if that happens he’s under 50% to reach base without an IBB. But then again, it might take something like Aaron Miles pitching for the Cubs to get three of me on base at once. Perhaps he’s over 50% if the impossible occurs.
by astrostl on Jan 13, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wow. didn't expect such a simple comment to receive such a response.
First of all, well argued on SB contrasted with CS, but I didn’t say anything about its worth. I was just using it as evidence that he’s fast . . . so don’t get ahead of yourself.
Second of all, you can’t say that RBI have nothing to do with the individual. I understand that runners being on base matters, but when a player has over 100 RBI for 6 straight seasons, it does say something about an individual. There’s a reason we don’t put Adam Kennedy in the clean up spot . . . And again, I was just using it to contrast homers. I wasn’t saying that was a deciding factor.
And I’m well aware of WAR. Reading this site for oh-however-many years will do that to you. I’m also well aware that .8 more WAR is anything but convincing. For one, Abreu will probably be cheaper than Dunn, and I’ll take that .8 less for less money. Also, there’s the the factor that I hate watching players strikeout almost every at bat. All I said was I’d rather have Abreu than Dunn, not that he’s better.
Summary: Abreu is faster than Dunn, RBI does rely on teammates but also somewhat relies on a player’s ability, Dunn might be a little better but might not be as good a fit for the Cards, and my argument was pretty much based purely opinion (hence why I didn’t bother to post much of an argument at all).
Oh, and don’t bring yourself down like that. I’m sure you’d get on base once or twice, even if it’s only because the pitcher doesn’t pitch well against clones.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 13, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A couple of things -- not nitpicking
but when a player has over 100 RBI for 6 straight seasons, it does say something about an individual.
You’re right — it means that he probably hits in the middle of a good lineup, doesn’t get hurt, and has good hitters playing in front of him. FYI, Dunn has driven in 100 runs in 5 straight seasons and hasn’t played in offenses near as good as the ones that Abreu has played in.
Dunn was a much better player last year, is younger, and sucks at defense at about the same rate as Abreu does. Abreu’s 2008 season is much more a function of playing in Yankee Stadium than anything else — 14 of his 20 homers came there and he 110 points higher there. The old Yankee was historically a great hitters park for left handers because of the pennant porch in right, so I’m not sure that Abreu would put up numbers similar to those from last season if he changed venues.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again: Nothing against Dunn; I just like Abreu better.
I’d love to have Dunn, but I think his contract will be much more expensive, and we’d need to commit to him for a longer period of time. Youth isn’t always a good thing, especially when trying to sign a free agent. I feel like Abreu can be a positive force for a much cheaper price (much like Hardcore suggested).
I don’t think a Joey Gathwright will drive in 100 runs by hitting in the middle of the lineup, not getting hurt, and having good hitters in front of him. You need to be a good hitter to accomplish a feat like that year after year.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 14, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, whether it was myth or fact
Abreu was promoted by the media as the ideal #2 hitter, a guy that rarely swings at a pitch out of the zone yet can still ‘do damage’ when you give him something to hit. Hitting in front of Pujols with his OBP would be nice.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 14, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure would be.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 14, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Better than Dunn?
Dunn got on base at a .390 clip last year and hit 40 homers, Abreu got on base at a .371 clip and hit 20 homers. I think both would equally be good in the 2 hole in front of Pujols. Dunn has also been chastised as a guy who will always take a walk, even when it would be better for his team if he would swing away.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 14, 2009 8:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ludwick
First of all, I would like to say hello to everyone because I am new here. Secondly, I would trade Ludwick because his value is probably higher than Ankiel’s, he is going to get expensive really quickly (with arbitration and then free agency), and he is on the wrong side of 30. I realize that Ankiel is not that much younger and we may have to trade him or let him walk due to money, but if Mo tried to get him extended now we could probably get it done at a reasonable price. In an ideal world, I would love to see an Ankiel, Rasmus, Ludwick outfield but money doesn’t grow on trees and we could gain a lot from trading Ludwick or Ankiel or both.
Also, I think Mo should look into trading Glaus. I know he has a NTC but it seems like many players are willing to break their NTC’s for the right team and more importantly the right extension. Glaus did spend some time playing in CA and the Angels do need a bat to fill the void left by Texiera. Also, the Giants need some offensive help. I am not saying it is likely, but it is something that Mo should look into. The Angels have a plethora of middle infield prospects and some good young pitchers, while the Giants have plenty of starting pitching depth (Bumgardner?…I know I am dreaming). Also, Glaus may be inclined to accept a trade if he could get an extension. The free agent market has proven to be tough on good but not elite players this year and it might not change next year. The right dollar amount could convince him to accept.
All in all, I appreciate what Glaus, Ludwick, Ankiel and the rest of the players have done for the Cardinals but it seems inevitable that some of them must go. If we do trade some of them I would love to see the Cards acquire some young starters (hopefully LHP) with top of the rotation upside and maybe some MI prospects. I have faith that Mo will do the right thing.
by Colby Cheese on Jan 13, 2009 1:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
First of all,
welcome to VEB. You write well, and because of that, I already like you.
Who do you propose the Cardinals get in return for Ludwick?
Let’s humor your idea of trading Glaus. Who plays 3B for us? I know Wallace is a nice hitter, but I’m not sure he’s ready for the majors yet.
by spants on Jan 13, 2009 1:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think the red sox are the only trade partner that jumps out to me.
you couldn’t pick a better perennial contender, from Glaus’ perspective, or a contender more likely to pay him his worth and then some for an extension.
If the sox could find a partner who wanted Lowell (I was toying with three-way trade ideas involving STL, TEX, and BOS for Glaus and Young, but on reflection I think erik is right that the Sox wouldn’t do it), Glaus seems like an excellent replacement. If we threw in Anderson, could we tempt the Sox into giving us Masterson?
Alternately, cleveland and its multiple catchers would be another interesting three-way partner — they need 3b help also.
by tom s. on Jan 13, 2009 3:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Colby Cheese
Why had nobody picked up on that before now? Dangit, I’m depressed for not thinking of it myself! :)
by stlfan on Jan 13, 2009 7:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I knew it was only a matter of time before someone had that as their screen name
kudos on that… problem with trading Ludwick or Glaus is that as a contending team, we probably just ain’t gonna do it. unless it is right now, and that brings up the problem with Glaus is that the management probably will not gamble with just starting freese or whoever at 3rd; they will probably want to wait to see who should win the position, and I don’t see them taking the gamble midseason if we are in it. still, Ludwick or Glaus would probably land a good deal, but I think that someone will have to approach the Cardinals with one (or both) of them specifically in mind, taking the matters out of our hands.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 1:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
*matter
and I meant to hit reply to Colby Cheese, perhaps I should go to bed.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 1:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nonsense! stay up & drink!
and welcome cheese, but yeah, we’re not going to trade Lud or Santa
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2009 1:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lowe
Just went to the Braves. 4 years, $60 million. Hope the Braves enjoy paying him $15 million (probably more due to deferments and what not) when he’s 39.
by lightbulb on Jan 13, 2009 10:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
He hasn't signed yet
He’s just “leaning strongly towards” the offer. With a guaranteed 4th year, that contract is a little scary.
by bmorgan on Jan 13, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He'd be crazy not to take that offer...
That’s another entire year and $15M more than any other offer that has been out there for him.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no, but it's close
http://scott-miller.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270335/12920222
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 13, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The report I saw
said everything was agreed, they were waiting on a physical.
by ArkansasTravs on Jan 13, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Cardinals were never in the ballpark...
That leaves Sheets as the last ace type starter on the market. I wonder if he’d take 2Y$30M still after seeing what Lowe just signed for?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Since he is the last ace
He may end up being out of the Cards’ price range. Teams will be starting to realize that there is less pitching to go around.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 13, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about
that Atlanta starting rotation? Hudson, Jurrjens, Campillo, Kawakami, Lowe, and Reyes
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 13, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hudson is out
til at least mid-season.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jan 13, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ahhh -- gotcha. So other teams actually have injured starting pitchers too?
I thought we cornered that market.
by Ray Lankford on Jan 13, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
news to me too
and does anyone wish the Cards would have made that kind of offer? I like Lowe, but 60M?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 13, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
now if they had an OF...
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 13, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't this make them more inclined to trade for more bats now?
If this is going to be their year to contend, wouldn’t they be more inclined to take someone like Ankiel so that they have a much better shot? My 2 cents.
by Taskmaster on Jan 13, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem being
There are still good free agent outfielders on the market, so I’m sure they’re going to wait and see what happens with them first. Dunn, Abreu, Garret Anderson, Edmonds, and Manny are still unsigned.
Why, oh why did our deepest position have to be the one with the most good players?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
According to Jerry Crasnick:
the Braves and Nationals are more focused on trades.
by STLRegalia on Jan 13, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They probably should be
But with this FA market, they may get a lot better bang for their value buck by going after free agents.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
didn't they also trade for Javier Vasquez
from the White Sox? and isn’t JoJo Reyes an ex-Brave?
by vinniefromjersey on Jan 13, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my mistake-
about Reyes. They are both with Atlanta. Any names on the list temp you in a Ludwick trade?
by vinniefromjersey on Jan 13, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jurrjens
But that ain’t gonna happen
BTW, forgot about Vazquez above, my bad.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 13, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
damn, I should've scrolled down first.
I agree. Jurrjens would be great, but he’d be tough to grab.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 13, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
actually, I take that back
The Braves really seem to be entering a win-now mode, and we might be able to pry Jurrjens for Ludwick and another name. They have a rotation of Hudson, Lowe, Kawakami, Vazquez. I’m sure they could “deal” with Reyes or Campillo taking the number 5 spot if they feel they can get another hitter who will help them win.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 13, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Any idea
how much longer they control him? Ludwick+ would have to be Ludwick plus not much else I would imagine. What about Ankiel, D. Jones, +? for him? That would give them a solid OF bat for this year, one of our top prospects to take his place later, and then something else to be determined. Ankiel would be ideal for a win now team.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 13, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Braves...
have a couple of OF studs on the farm already. Jones isn’t as highly regarded as either of them. The Braves could use a 1B who projects to hit more than Casey Kotchman – like Brett Wallace – but I doubt they are interested in trading Jurrjens at all. Jurrjens is the type of player every organization needs; he helps win now and in the future.
by IA Card on Jan 13, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who are their stud outfielders? (really asking a question)
And are any of them ready to contribute this year? If they are going to go into the season with an outfield of Francouer, Blanco, and Jones, they are screwed!
I can only think of Schafer off the top of my head but he got busted for PEDs not too long ago and am not sure if he is ready to step in to CF. His situation reminds me a little of the Rasmus situation last year.
by MattK on Jan 14, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heyward is the other
he’s a couple of years away, but he’s getting a ton of hype, being compared to cliff floyd as an 18yo in A ball, etc.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 14, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that they are loading up on what the rest of their division doesn't have....
Pitching.
The Mets don’t have great pitching, the Phillies have one great pitcher and a bunch of middlers, the Nationals have little to no pitching at all, and the Marlins have a bunch of young guys that might emerge or might not.
When you look at their bullpen, the Braves are probably going to be putting Campillo and Reyes back there to stabilize it, so they’ll need all the starters that they currently have.
With Lowe in the fold, this might be the best rotation in the National League, assuming the Hudson comes back healthy — which is a big assumption.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow what a coincidence
I posted a thread at the Post-Dispatch on this suggestion without knowing this conversation was going on over here. Maybe I should have started it here first. Much less snarky criticism over here. ;)
Do you think a trade of Ankiel, Freese, Castillo gets Jurrjens? Maybe replace Castillo with Jay?
I can dream, can’t I?
by MattK on Jan 14, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
once you get used to this place
you won’t even want to admit going over to the P-D threads
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 14, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to trade for Jurrjens.
Think they still want Ludwick?
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 13, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you were the Braves, would you trade Jurrjens?
I sure wouldn’t. 22-year-olds with ace potential don’t just show up every day.
by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no
but they managed to get him a trade as short ago as last year. Teams do crazy things. Can’t hurt to put the call in.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 13, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but.
the Tigers got Edgar Renteria.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 13, 2009 8:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yikes!
Glad the Cards avoided that contract…but it’s looking more and more likely now that we will sign another stopgapper for ’09….
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 13, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Other than a trade
I don’t see any way we can get by if we decide not to sign Sheets. Supply and Demand comes in effect now, he is the last pitcher we really want, so his price will be probably our entire remaining money(If we get him that is).
by Taskmaster on Jan 13, 2009 12:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Other needs
First, I believe that the Cards need more starting pitching depth among other things. Secondly, a few weeks back I remember reading a lot of posts clamoring for a big bat to protect Pujols. I think Mo should get creative and find a great leadoff hitter. I believe that the best protection for Pujols is to get high OBP guys in the 1 and 2 spots in the order. If you get guys on base for Pujols, it forces teams to pitch to him, while a big bat would be nice, you are not going to find a player good enough to protect Pujols that fits the Cardinals budget. Mo would have to get creative but it can be done.
by Colby Cheese on Jan 13, 2009 1:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
not sure why people vote to request to trade Rick
when they can vote to request to trade Skip. guess people don’t like a good story. plus rick is better.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 1:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
because we can get more in trade for Rick.
And because, at least last year, Skip really was better.
Courtesy beyond the boxscore:
Off Runs Pos DefRuns TotRuns
16 Skip M Schumaker 20 -2 2 20
17 Rick Ankiel 25 1 -7 19
Maybe Rick will be healthier and better this year. Maybe not. And Skip is cheaper.
by tom s. on Jan 13, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
bah! one day I'll learn to format. Those four numbers running along after the names
are offensive runs, position runs, defensive runs, and total runs.
by tom s. on Jan 13, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is,
and this is pure speculation, but Rick can only get better. He was hurt for an extended period last year and that hurt his numbers. His trade value will be down because of that. Skip, on the other hand, is at peak trade value. He just had a great season and he is still cheap.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 13, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I see that. Rick clearly has a much higher upside than Skip.
I just think that the case for why ankiel could be a good trade target can be made — it’s not illogical to mark Ank as our top trade chip, which was the original contention. I like Rick, I like his story, but we have to be honest about his potential flaws, too.
For that matter, I wasn’t advocating keeping Skip. If we can get something decent for him, we should. Skip is talented but very replaceable, say, by Barton, who does almost everything Skip does and doesn’t need a platoon partner. but I believe Skip’s trade value is minimal.
by tom s. on Jan 13, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the other teams see his potential flaws just as much, if not moreso
and he would only give them one year of potential, so we would not get much back in trade. so maybe him and skip are equal trade chips, I can compromise
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Three reasons...
- Ankiel’s contract situation is much more volatile than Skip’s.
- We could probably get more in trade for a CF who has the potential to hi 40 homers than for a platoon outfielder who might have peaked as a player in 2008.
- Ankiel is least likely to play a full slate of games next year and more likely to get injured. He is the higher risk candidate.
We’re selling Ank’s potential, much like we would a 23 year old prospect. It’s just that he’s 28 and about to become a free agent. So the question is whether we want to take the risk that he’s great next year and we get draft compensation for him because he’ll demand a big contract, or do we trade him now and get a decent to good pitching prospect in return and damn the consequences?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my contention being
that neither would bring us much back in trade, so why let the one go that would have more potential for ’09? one has to go though
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A possible scenario?
We need a starting pitcher that has the ability to pitch near the top of the rotation (slots 1-3). If Sheets does not sign soon, I think that probably means that his shoulder’s health is scaring teams away. If he signs soon, it will likely not be to us (because signing soon probably means he will be expensive), and if his health really is questionable enough to make teams balk, I would prefer to bank on someone else.
Maybe McClellan could be our #3? He pitched awfully well at the start of last year and has the pitches to be a starter. Duncan likes him for the future rotation. Why not now? McClellan did seem to get worn at the end of the year, and that is a concern.
LaRussa, I believe, mentioned that to move McClellan to the rotation, he would want to add a veteran to the bullpen. No surprise.
Maybe Pinero could be that veteran. He did well in his first inning pitched this last year. After that, especially innings 3-6, he became the Pinata.
To move Pinero to the bullpen, we would need to replace him with a veteran starter, a free agent. That is much easier to envision, though, because now we are not trying to sign a #1-3, just someone who ought to be allowed to start in the big leagues. Wolf, Looper, Garland, probably in that order of preference, would do.
Signing one of those three should leave money to add a real left-hander to the bullpen, by which I mean a healthy, good pitcher who is also left-handed. Will Ohman is still available.
That would give a rotation of:
Wainwright
Lohse
McClellan
Wolf/Looper/Garland
Wellemeyer
And a bullpen of:
Ohman
Miller or Ring
Pinero
Franklin
Motte
Perez
Kinney or Thompson
I would at least have hope….
Sign someone who can pitch, then let this team play.
by IL and StL Fan on Jan 13, 2009 1:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
McClellan as a starter worries me...
not so sure why, but I think he’ll be healthier in the pen, thus having more value
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does Pinero...
in the rotation make you less nervous?
Sign someone who can pitch, then let this team play.
by IL and StL Fan on Jan 13, 2009 8:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ohhh
I dunno, I tend to block the pinata signing out of the memory sphere
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Please make this happen.
From the Michael Young MLBTR rumor mill:
“Young would give Cubs manager Lou Piniella the flexibility to put Young in a middle-infield rotation with Ryan Theriot and Aaron Miles. In return, the Rangers could seek Rich Hill, a left-handed starter who has fallen from favor, and third-base prospect Josh Vitters.”
Yes, please, Cubs, do this trade!!! Yes, give away Hill and Vitters! See if they’ll take Soto away from you too!
by tom s. on Jan 13, 2009 1:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hill is going to excel the moment they let him go.
Kid has wicked stuff.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 13, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I keep dreaming that the cubs won’t find someone to trade him to and he’ll fall to us on the waiver wire, since their bullpen is full and he is out of options. He’d be an awesome wellemeyer redux candidate.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 13, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
forget awesome.
that’d be phenomenal.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 13, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What would Cubby payroll be up to if they did that?
Besides, Young can’t be THAT much better than DeRo was?
Chuck Norris bows to no man...but he does bow to The Mang.
by miniboscorino on Jan 13, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Going by last year and the year before
Derosa is a much better player, he’s just been a late bloomer.
That would be a historically bad trade for the Cubs. Let’s hope they do it. Hell, they could have Peavy for LESS money than what they’d be paying an aging 32 year old second baseman. I’m not sure that Young is any better than Mike Fontenot would be…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do it Cubbies!!! Balance that lineup!!!!
Whooohooo!!!! It will look like:
Soriano
Theriot
Lee
A-Ram
Soto
Bradley
Young
Fukudome
Pitcher
Man the cubs have a screwy lineup.
Chuck Norris bows to no man...but he does bow to The Mang.
by miniboscorino on Jan 13, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know the Cardinals have a lot of (bad) multi year commitments
to pitchers right now and in the recent past but even I am getting to the point where I want them to actually effing sign someone. I’m trying to remember the last time they were connected to a premier free agent and landed him. I’m thinking it was prior to Burnett-05. Building from within is great; filling the margins around Pujols with good not great players isn’t a bad strategy but I feel like we’ve become some backwater team no one wants to join. Like the Nationals or something. It’s depressing.
[/end whine]
[/decide what to start drinking when work ends]
by azruavatar on Jan 13, 2009 2:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It does seem that it's coming to that.
I mean being treated like a backwater team. But the thing is we’re not. We are the second most successful franchise in baseball history behind the Yankees (although the disparity is pretty enormous). And the last few years we have had back-to-back 100+ win seasons and a WS title to boot. Only one season this decade has been below .500. It just seems like all of the big time players want to go to the bigger markets (ie: Cubs, Red Sox) because that is where all of the $$$ is. But what type of success have the Cubs had in the past 100 years? Division titles, that’s great. And the Red Sox were in relative obscurity only until this past decade. I’m sick of this too Az, I want a good signing this offseason, but it’s becoming less and less likely that it is going to happen.
/end my whining
/too young to drink and I’m not working right now…
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 13, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I try new craft brew after work
suggestions in linky link in sig, new ones to come soon
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nah
no beer tonight, I wait I think for league night on thursday, forgot about that
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's cyclical
One day I’ll be all happy that they’ve avoided signing a bad contract with a marginal or older player and then the next I realize WE HAVEN’T EFFING SIGNED ANYONE AND LAST YEARS TEAM PLAYED OVER THEIR HEADS!!!!
I want some good starting pitching for a change. A great rotation and Albert Pujols a playoff team does make.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 13, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's frustrating because I don't want to feel this way.
It’s good roster for next year that looks like an 85 win team on paper. But the major holes just don’t seem to get filled. Players like Kawakami, Lowe and Burnett get snatched up and the Cardinals scuffle their feet, seemingly. With Ludwick and Glaus they’ve got a very good supporting cast and they seem content with that. Management doesn’t seem as “hungry” as it did when they acquired guys like Larry Walker.
Sure it’s a different environment in baseball management but the degree of complacency seems unreasonable. Maybe I’m just disappointed with the offseason so far. Maybe the FO will be vindicated in avoiding some of these players. Who knows….
by azruavatar on Jan 13, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
It seems like the FO lacks a “hunger” to go for it. Sure, this may be a mid-80s win team as is, but that’s not good enough. When this team has the offense (AP, Ludwick, Glaus, Ankiel) and is just one or two pieces away from being a force in the NL, it’s very frustrating that seemingly nothing gets done. Signing one “big name” pitcher could change this team from an 80+ win afterthought to a 90 win playoff contender. I don’t see why they don’t pull the trigger on something.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 13, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree
If the FO remains stagnant, it seems their fears of the fans not coming out in full force will be realized…but if they go out and make a big acquisition (one that makes sense of course, ie signing Sheets, or trading for a # 2-3 pitcher) I have not doubts that with an improved team, the fans will come. It’s in a Cardinal fan’s nature.
by AirForceCardsFan on Jan 14, 2009 3:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand the frustration...
but think that it may be a bit premature. I’m not going to make the tired argument that it’s only January and the FO will find another Lohse but I do think the Cards will make a trade from the OF/RH relief surplus. It makes too much sense not to happen. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Cards entered Spring Training with this surplus intact and traded someone(s) off when the injury bug bites somewhere.
(Sidenote: I don’t think anyone from the 3B surplus will be traded this off-season. Based on the expert rankings, no one finds Craig or Freese that appealing. It makes more sense to hold onto them and hope they continue to improve.)
by IA Card on Jan 13, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
has anyone heard anything at all
or know how Craig plays, that could suggest that he may fit at 2B if they converted him, or at least tried? would it be worth the effort? I have no idea how the guy plays or what he looks like, etc.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It'd be premature if it was this season
but this stems back from Burnett in ’05.
by azruavatar on Jan 13, 2009 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think...
this stems from ownership? The change in the FO hasn’t caused any shift in the approach to signing free agents.
by IA Card on Jan 13, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
It seems, in a very anecdotal kind of way, that no one wants to come here. I don’t remember the last time a real free agent was talking about how they wanted to play in STL since Burnett. Is that the FO? I don’t know. The cardinals also seem to “target” players and inevitably come up short. Why does that happen so often?
Again, this is just how I feel. It may or may not reflect reality. I’m usually one to preach caution and erring on the side of the farm system so the fact that I find myself discontent surprises me and makes me question what is causing it.
by azruavatar on Jan 13, 2009 8:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If it makes you feel better
Jake Peavy put us on his ‘you can trade me here’ list.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 13, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
too bad MO put him on his
guy we don’t need list
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
More like
Guy We Can’t Afford List.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 13, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who isn't on that list...
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 13, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
me
i have a arm injury but on my non thrwoing arm will be 30 in april..and wouldnt pitch all that well…i think it fits..
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Jan 13, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If the injury
was on your throwing arm I think they’d consider it. As it is, you’re just out of luck.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 14, 2009 9:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
actually Tackle, MO said they didn't want him
not they couldn’t afford him. he said what the Cards have to offer isn’t what the Father’s want, so the Cards weren’t even going to talk to them.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If he was free
they would have taken him. He didn’t want to talk because he wasn’t going to like what they demanded for him.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 14, 2009 7:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my two cents
i think prevailing sentiment is that the cards will not go a cent above what they deem to be a player’s value or a position value unless that player is coming from within the organization.
the problem is that no free agent is going to sign a contract that is below what they believe there value is and that is fine because they know that other franchises will pay that amount for their services.
i think the reason this season feels even more frustrating is that now free agent prices are coming down to the level that is the cards deem is appropriate we still don’t pull the trigger. (i say that because sheets value right now has to be even in the most frugal of team’s value estimate) many of us having a hard time seeing why and the latest reason from the FO is that we have too many long term contracts. however, i have no doubt in my mind that if ben sheets was wearing the birds on a bat last year they would sign him to a multi-year deal along with lohse.
i also really think the economy has put us in a tight spot. and i don’t mean that the FO has reason to be concerned about their revenue. st. louis fans will come to the park and dewitt knows it. the reason i think the economy hurts us is that Mo was putting a lot of eggs in the “trade from depth” basket it seems and now that free agents are signing so much cheaper than last year no one wants to give up valuable players.
i think back to last year how once again no free agents were moving except that the reason was that they were too expensive and people were trying to trade because it was cheaper. now free agents aren’t moving because teams are greedy and want to get a player as cheap as possible. has anyone else noticed that no trade have happen since very early in the offseason?
i wouldn’t want Mo’s job right now. not only is ownership not giving him the green light to sign a FA but he also can’t trade anyone because he would have to accept pennies on the dollar.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 14, 2009 3:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Craig can sit in the minors for a year or two without issue. I’ve seen both sides of the ‘experts’ look on Freese, some love his glove and think his bat may be just above average, some are critical because of the age factor.
If he screams through ST you’ll see a totally different opinion. Just like as they had Barton last year.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 14, 2009 4:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe they are thinking
that they wait to go all in until 2010
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that is enough to make me whine
next year’s FA class is, well to put it like the kid on Fat Albert, like school in the summer, no class!….I mean Rick Ankiel heads next year’s FA class.
/uses slight hyperbole
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 13, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ewh
didn’t know next year’s was that bad.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just like they were waiting for 2009
to go all in? And look where we are, in a bargain market with a ton of talent and we’ve bought some useless LOOGYs.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 13, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
they need to sign somebody/trade/do something
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's funny that 2007 was the low point, where we were just a disaster for want of two competent starters
and since then both major errors (Pineiro and Lohse’s contract) were an overreaction to that season — as god is my witness we’ll never go pitcherless again. That’s one lesson probably overlearned.
Then, the injured starter lesson was learned and maybe overlearned — snakebit by clement, carp, and mulder, we passed up (or are at least currently passing up) some great pitchers with injury history.
It is dangerous both not to learn from history and to overlearn from history.
by tom s. on Jan 13, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are the Braves a major factor in the east now?
They have quite a sexy rotation of…
Jurrjens
Lowe
Hudson
Kawakami
Vazquez
I’m not even sure what order I’d rank the top 3. Jurrjens has youth, Lowe has experience and durability, and Hudson is Hudson.
And I don’t think they’ll have problems scoring runs.
by TheBirds on Jan 13, 2009 5:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I do
And I don’t think they’ll have problems scoring runs.
Funny, that’s the thing I really think they’re going to lack.
I really question whether their offense is going to be good enough. They play in a division with some teams who’ve got pretty good offenses. The only team they ranked ahead of last year in their division was the Nationals, and everyone on the Nationals last year had a shitty season or was hurt all year. The Phillies, Mets, and Marlins all outscored them, and that was with a half season of Teixeira that they don’t have this year.
They have two great bats: Chipper and McCann, and then they have two average bats in Escobar and Johnson. They have no good outfield bats at all unless Francoeur bounces back, and no players in a position to move up from the minors to take those spots. Diaz, Blanco, Jones, and Anderson all look like platoon players to me.
Manny Ramirez would help them more than any other player at this point. They need a good right handed power hitter in the middle of their lineup. If they add Dunn they run the risk of having trouble scoring against lefties, and Abreu is kind of the same way. If you’re going to have a corner outfielder with shitty defense, you might as well get the best bat out there.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Manny would make sense
But I think there running out of money to spend. I think they had around 30 mil to spend this offseason. Kawikami (7-8 mil), Lowe (14 mil) and they probably need to acquire some depth in the bullpen. I don’t see how they could sign Manny for the 2/40 year deal he will probably get.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 13, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They could get someone like Nady (or Ank) in trade
and see what kind of OFer 5-8 million can get you on the FA market. Apparently it get you a Pat Burrell quality player this year…..
by TheBirds on Jan 13, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They have been linked to Nady
And it looks like a pretty good fit for them. He was a very good player last year, over 3 WAR, and his offense might be good enough for Atlanta to stick him in the clean-up spot to separate Jones and McCann. The Yankees will probably want Jordan Shafer because they have a void in center, and Shafer will probably be called up mid-season. But Nady is a solid, cheap player, who could help the Braves next year.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 13, 2009 8:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ok ATL
let the STL trade you an outfielder, give us a great deal!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hudson is Hudson
And Hudson is out for half the year, unfortunately.
by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ohh, i don't follow the braves too closely....
Ohh, and I gotta believe they will get an OF bat (or 2), there are just too many of them available this offseason, whether it’s through trade of FA.
by TheBirds on Jan 13, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
when are the arb hearings starting?
by bearcatcardfan on Jan 13, 2009 8:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
that is what i was wondering
Mo wouldn’t have to wait till then to have a budget in mind would he? wasn’t he one of the main people involved with those hearing during jocketty reign? and isn’t the cardinals president an ex-MLB official that was also heavily involved with those negotiations? we should have had a really good idea how those hearings would go the week after the season ended.
maybe dewitt just needs to see it in writing before he allows another new contract? let’s hope some FA’s are still left.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 14, 2009 3:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trying to think outside of the box a little bit...
I think we need to move Ankiel and here is an idea:
The Yankees need a centerfielder.
They want to get rid of Nady.
Nady and Ankiel put up pretty similar numbers last year, although Nady was a little better.
Nady bats right handed and Ankiel bats left handed.
I have not heard any names associated with a Nady trade, but maybe a three way deal could be worked out here for a team looking for a right handed bat and willing to give up a starter.
Cards get: Starting pitcher
Yanks get: Ankiel
3rd team gets: Nady
I can’t think of a third team that matches up well, but its another idea.
by El Hombre on Jan 13, 2009 10:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Red Sox?
They would want a catcher also though.
Anderson and Nady to Sox
Ankiel to Yankees
Bowden/Buchholz to Cards
by vivaelpujols on Jan 13, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great Idea
let’s get the red sox and yankees to agree to a deal with each other….
"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean
by Molina4MVP on Jan 13, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or we can trade with the cubs
probably an easier undertaking
by bearcatcardfan on Jan 14, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
BEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN SHHHHHHHHHEEEEEETTTS
I’m just saying. I hope someone in the FO can hear me.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 13, 2009 10:41 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Curious
HL, what do you think it would take to get him.
What contract could land him that would make it worth losing a 1st round pick this year and lose him after the year? (If he only signes a 1 year deal. IT seems likely that he might be looking for just 1 year now so he can prove himself and make more money in next year’s weaker FA SP market with a *hopefully better economy…)
(Another question, would he still be a Type A free agent next year, therefore garnering us a 1st round draft pick the next year if he does only sign an 1 year deal? Or does that not work for someone signed to only a 1 year deal? I’m not sure on the specifics….)
"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean
by Molina4MVP on Jan 13, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ugh, punctuation.
clearly i meant to put a ? instead of a . on the first line…
"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean
by Molina4MVP on Jan 13, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1 year/$15 M
with a vesting option of $17 M next year should he reach 150 IP.
And we get the picks back next year (if he doesn’t lose an appendage) when he is a Type A for the second year in a row and hopefully we offer him arbitration.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 13, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Way to much
the way the market is going, he’ll be likely to get an AAV of over 1 mil. I say 2 years 18 million, with and option for 10 million in 2111 if he pitches 180 innings in each of the first 2 years.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 13, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
man
2111 is almost to the time of The Temples of Syrinx!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I got it, for whatever “it” is worth :)
I had sat near row 20, seat 10 at a Rush concert. Every few minutes the drunk dude in front of us would turn to my father and I and exclaim, “2112 dude!!!”
by astrostl on Jan 14, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw 'em in '94 I think
what an awesome show
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 14, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a long ass contract.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 14, 2009 7:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I've heard of...
…. deferred compensation, but, damn.
by punditmoi on Jan 14, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
we should picket the FO with sign ben sheets signs
by bearcatcardfan on Jan 14, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not a bad idea
it’s not like we have a policy against injury risks
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 14, 2009 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I've got this weekend open
WHO IS MAKING THE SIGNS?
I think this is worth yelling over.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 14, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Marty could make them up!
They are high quality and he could possibly be a fellow VEBlogger here and we don’t even know about it…..
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 14, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny sign :) I wonder what he thinks of McGwire.
by astrostl on Jan 14, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to be a smart-ass
and put up a pick of whatever sign he used to hold for McGwire but when I googled “McGwire Sign” this appeared.
1. She’s hot.
2. Look how skinny he is.
3. I was “this close” to going to that wedding. I’m good friends with the girl who introduced the two of them (my friend and his wife went to high school together) and she was invited to the wedding. She had to back out (I think it was financial reasons with the wedding being in California and all) so we ended up not going.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 14, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dang
I just sat here for a minute making that sound Peter Griffin makes when he get a paper cut or whatever.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 15, 2009 1:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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