Hot Stove -- 1/9 thru 1/16
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 2:19 PM EST
492 comments
We're up over 400 posts on the last one so I thought I'd get a new one started.
Some carry over discussions from the last couple of days:
- It looks to me from Mo's comments that if he thinks the team needs another starting pitcher than he would go out and get one. Hmmmmmm...
- The free agent pitching market just got a little smaller with all the old folks signing yesterday (Hoffman to the Brew Crew, and Smoltz to the Sawx), and one Japanese pitcher also off the market (Uehara to the O's). The contracts seem fairly reasonable but the only one I would have liked to see with the Cards is Uehara. Does anyone think this makes Kawakami cheaper? Or will he still get 3 years at $8M or $9M per season?
- It also looks like Tony is ready to give Colby a shot in CF at some point next year, and thinks that the team should probably move an outfielder to make room for him. I wonder which outfielder he feels needs to be moved most.
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I voted Ankiel
Simply because I think he brings the most back in return and because he probably will not get the Cards any draft pick compensation when he leaves this year.
I also think that he may be the best possible trade candidate midseason if he’s healthy, and that’s when I expect Colby to come up — sometime in late May or early June.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 2:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i voted Skip because Tony is too attached to Rick to let go right now
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 9, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you on this, fourstick
have to give up something to get something
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:
by gocards62 on Jan 9, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not convinced
that we will get as much as you think for Rick. Other teams are going to be just as worried about Boras as we are. We might have more luck hanging on to him until the trade deadline and trading him to a team trying to make a playoff push.
And I say England's greatest prime minister was Lord Palmerston.
by tangledbrett on Jan 9, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
boras
i don’t think its so much boras that poeple are worried about. i mean, he will deter some teams but the big deal is that we have a CF in waiting and there is no reason to pay someone 8-10 mil a year when you have a cheap replacement of Colby’s talent.
there are several teams that have questions at CF this year and more that will have questions next year. teams could (and currently do) a lot worse than ricky.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 9, 2009 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
although i agree with you
i don’t think he brings back his worth. i think we will have to sell low on him despite how he is playing.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 9, 2009 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You may be right.
If we hang onto him until the trade deadline at least, we might be able to find a team that is willing to give up a little more if they have a specific need to fill. I guess you never know what situations will present themselves, but if he can perform well during the first half and prove that he isn’t a fluke, his stock goes up exponentially IMO.
And I say England's greatest prime minister was Lord Palmerston.
by tangledbrett on Jan 9, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All I said
Was that we would get more for Rick than for Schumaker, Mather, or Barton. I don’t think that trading Ludwick makes a lot of sense for the 2009 Cardinals.
Do you think that we get less for Ankiel than we get for Schumaker, Mather, or Barton straight up? Rick hit more homers in a healthy half season last year than those three guys have hit in their entire big league careers combined. Someone out there will be willing to roll the dice on a guy who could probably hit around 40 homers if he ever played a full season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you
That we will get more for Rick than the others, but I don’t think the difference between what Rick and Skip will bring is as significant as many people think. Skip is cost controlled and plays good D, so he has some things going for him. Most teams will look at Rick as a rental, which hurts his value. In either case, I think they will have to be part of a package to get a significant return. I agree with your earlier post that waiting to trade Rick until midseason might be a wise option. If he comes out healthy, and raking, teams might be willing to splurge on a rental if they think he can get them into the post season.
And I say England's greatest prime minister was Lord Palmerston.
by tangledbrett on Jan 10, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, but
what if the Cards are the ones contending? Don’t most of the “trade him midseason” arguments go away, assuming he’s healthy? Seems to me that all bets are off, at that point, especially if RAnk is raking.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 10, 2009 1:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
I think if he’s healthy and having a good year at the midseason mark, the trade him fervor is going to be at the same level it is now, at least among those of us here at VEB. We have a replacement for him that, barring injury, should be ready to come up and replace him at that point, and will be cost controlled for 6 years (and essentially free for the first three). We could be leading the division in July and I still think there would be a good number of people looking to move Rick for starting pitching help at that time, unless one of the kids has proven he’s big league material. Obviously it would be better for us if he’s raking because we’d probably get some sort of draft compensation for him at the end of the year, but he’d have to have one hell of a season to qualify as type A: I’m talking 40+ homers and 120+ RBI’s. I just don’t have faith that he can stay healthy for a full season and put up those numbers.
There’s also an inherent risk that he may have less value than he does now if we wait until the midseason mark. When chuckb wrote about this a couple months ago, he was essentially saying that it would be better to deal him now even if the return isn’t great, simply because if we don’t we could risk getting nothing for him when he leaves, and the team has literally no reason to bring him back at all if he can’t stay healthy in 2009, not at any conceivable price that is more than he’s currently making.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 10, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, I think Rasmus is sufficiently promising and Ankiel defense limited enough
that we may actually be better off with Rasmus. Whatever runs we lose in what will likely be a temporary slump for colby we may gain in defense over Rick, whose arm was great but whose general D was below average.
I’m not even sure that this is a “increasingly expensive fielder one year before a Boras negotiation” issue, so much as a “colby may be better” issue. I guess we could still have Rick in RF and Lud in LF, but I think we downplay rasmus’ defensive skill and ignore Rick’s limitations by playing this just as a Boras/money issue.
by tom s. on Jan 11, 2009 4:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rick was injured. I still think he belongs in RF though.
by astrostl on Jan 11, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
After Ank was injured
he pretty much pinch hit and played LF. That UZR/150 of -10.5 was pretty much all compiled before the injury. I agree on RF – it might be a little bit of an adjustment, but he just doesn’t seem to get a good enough jump on the ball to play CF. Besides, I would rather see the 22 year-old legs out there than the 30 year-old ones.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 11, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I voted Ank
I don’t want to trade Ludwick, and you won’t really get anything in return for the other guys.
Also, Ankiel is set to get a pay raise, so trading him would ideally create spending money. (Unless you trade for another player of equal or greater salary)
Are the giants still interested in trading Sanchez, we could do Ank + Freese for him. Anyone object to this?
by TheBirds on Jan 9, 2009 3:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I voted Ank as well
Mainly because of the one word that every baseball fan knows is made of PURE EVIL:
B
O
R
A
S
I think that he will try and manipulate us and other teams for paying a lot more than he’s worth imo, and the FO will be forced to trade him now or midseason.
by Taskmaster on Jan 9, 2009 3:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Boras...
They guy we worked with to get Lohse?
by Evilfrog on Jan 9, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
You saying you are happy with Lohse’s contract?
by Taskmaster on Jan 9, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to defend the lohse contract.
Much. I will say it was a very different time three-four months ago.
On the other hand, the Lohse contract didn’t result from any major squeezing or manipulation. Mo practically sprinted into the negotiations. We pulled Lohse from his last start so he could do his physical, that’s how excited we were.
Boras is surely guilty of many things (he is off Jeff Weaver’s Christmas card list), but if he had a willing victim it’s hard to make him the bad guy in the Lohse case.
by tom s. on Jan 9, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes that guy
And that 4 year/$41 million dollar deal w/ a full no trade clause. That would be Boras…
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 9, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lohse is in hindsight a pretty bad deal to the tune of several million dollars.
how did it happen = boras + panic + the general ostrich-like (head in the sand) attitude of the country’s financial elite, which includes bdw.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jan 9, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Btw
i was wondering what you guys thought about trading with Seattle? Perhaps we can work out a deal with them for Bedard(I can dream, oh yes), or maybe even Smith/Morrow. This at all possible?
by Taskmaster on Jan 9, 2009 3:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Trading with Seattle got a lot harder when they fired Bavasi
I don’t think that they’re going to trade Smith or Morrow for ANYONE now that they are in a rebuilding mode (which they should have been at the deadline last year and dumped Washburn, Ibanez, etc.).
If I was them, I’d be looking to move players like Bedard and King Felix for a lot of good prospects in AA and AAA to maximize the amount of talent I could get for each, and make their rebuilding period a shot one. The problem with this is, of course, is that neither of them can stay healthy enough for you to get their full value. They’ll probably get a similar haul to what the Cardinals got for J.D. Drew a half decade ago, or maybe a little more considering the lack of good starting pitchers out there next year. Ideally, the best time to deal either of those guys will be in the mid-season of next year if they’ve proved they are healthy and Morrow and a couple of their other young arms are ready to make a move into the big league rotation.
Which gets me to thinking: Maybe it would be a good idea to try out the kids in spring training, hope that Carpenter will be able to help the rotation, and then make a move for one of these type of pitchers (i.e. Guys that are on rebuilding clubs and entering arbitration or free agency after the ’09 season) at mid-season or the trade deadline next year. At that point the front office will have a lot better idea of where the club is in terms of talent.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why would they trade King Felix for prospects?
The guy is 22 years old. He’s younger, more talented, and more proven than anyone they’d get in return.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 9, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Possibly because they're going to lose him in two years...
He’ll be a free agent after the 2010 season and he’ll be 24 years old. He is going to get a huge payday if he doesn’t break down with injury over the next two seasons, and Seattle may not be able to sign him for any amount of money if he decides that he wants to play for a contender every year. He could literally get a 7Y$200M deal if things stay the way that they are, because you be getting his prime seasons for nearly that entire contract. Why risk getting nothing but a draft pick lower than #15 for a guy who could bring you 3 or 4 really good prospects already in AA?
The Mariners don’t have any good pitching prospects above A ball outside of Morrow. They have a couple of good young position players on their major league roster, but no top prospects in the minors right now that project to be all-star type players and only a few even project as regulars. They have a lot of questions, ultimately, they don’t have great attendance, and are paying Ichiro a ton of money because he’s one of the few guys that brings in revenue for them. He’s also in his mid-thirties and isn’t going to play forever. They just changed GM’s, so he may want to blow up the current roster, keeping all the cost controlled players and trading the high paid guys and the guys they won’t be able to sign (other than Ichiro or even including him) so they can begin to rebuild their farm system.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
fourstick
why aren’t you one of the main bloggers on this blog? Well-written, well-thought-out frequent posts….they bring you on, and then it would truly be a Gang of Four.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 9, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would be happy to add something to the conversation.
I also think that the moderators we have do a great job. The discussions are always free-flowing and well thought out, and while I don’t always agree with what they say, as you could see in my debate with azru the other day, I do appreciate the passion that they bring to their arguments and the Cardinals in general. That’s what separates this Cards blog from many of the other ones out there.
I love the job DanUp has done since he came aboard, but I gotta say I do miss lboros’ well thought out posts, especially on the front office and the minor leagues. I was seriously ecstatic to see baron’s first draft related post this week — by far my favorite posts of the pre-spring training months…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 10, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't agree with them dealing him now.
For one, they have at least a year to try to work something out in terms of an extension. Also, he has a huge presence in Seattle. Maybe it’s because I live in Seattle, so I know very closehand about the M’s scenario, but I think they’re going to try to hold onto him as much as possible, especially for now. If they deal him, it will be the last year of his contract. He could easily be the icon on this team after Ichiro leaves, Seattle loves him, and the M’s will try to resign him. Especially if his injury problems continue, they could probably extend him for a decently cheap contract until he’s 27 or so as he tries to prove his endurance.
Also, time to get sort of defense, but the M’s actually do have pretty good attendance. You can’t blame fans for not wanting to go during a 100-loss season in the midst of the worst economic downslide in decades. Other than last season, the M’s usually draw above-average crowds even when losing.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 11, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Morrow is not possible.
But Bedard might be. But yeah, Morrow is one of the few legitimately good young players they have, and they’re going to do everything they can to hold onto him in this time of rebuilding.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 9, 2009 7:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel.
I think he should provide more value than either Schumaker or Barton, and he’s most likely gonna cost more than Mather and Ludwick after this year. I think he will be a fine player, but I also think he will continue to have injury problems. If the Cardinals can get something for him and have an OF of Mather, Rasmus, Ludwick for the next 3 years than they should be in pretty good shape. Hopefully, Ankiel lands a solid starting pitcher or MIF prospect.
by etp_stl on Jan 9, 2009 4:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I lol'd when I read this
The Orioles have Edmonds on the radar as a first base candidate.
by bearcatcardfan on Jan 9, 2009 4:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That sound you hear
is Barry Bonds weeping softly to himself.
by liam on Jan 9, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Crap
The Barry Bonds debate will now ensue…
by Taskmaster on Jan 9, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's assuming Barry Bonds or Jim Edmonds would play 1B
I’m not sure that either would want to do that, despite what Barry has said publicly.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jimmy said the same thing his final season here
and when he couldn’t play CF he did pretty well playing 1st when Albert was on the DL. so i can totally see him doing it. especially if the price is right.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 9, 2009 8:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
400
Jimmy’s pretty close to 400 dingers. If he can hang around and hit that mark, his HOF candidacy will take a huge step forward. I’d expect him to give it a shot.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Jan 12, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the O's considered
Kevin Millar an acceptable starting 1B for 2 years …
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 9, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll go with Ankiel
for no defensible reason whatsoever except that I think he’s cursed. His career has had too many huge ups followed by devastating downs, and I expect more.
(I kind of expect Luddy’s career to implode any time now too, but only because of the injury risk. With Ank you get physical AND psychological injuries.)
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 9, 2009 5:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
he's cursed!?
it’s that black cat!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For no defensible reason?
I’ll help you come up with some: We have a ton of lefty outfielders, of all of our outfielders, his production is the most likely to be duplicative (Rasmus), he’ll fetch more value than Schumaker, and he’s only signed for one more year.
by Ray Lankford on Jan 10, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
schumaker
he’s not as good as ankiel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2009 5:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I took this as
Who do you want traded, rather than who will bring the most return when traded. Therefore, I voted for Skip. Obviously Rick will bring back more, but I really don’t think Skip is or should be in the organization’s long term plans. Rasmus, Barton, and Mather could/should be. Then we also control Ludwick for three more years, have guys like Jones and Jay coming up, and we have the Duncan factor. He’s a solid player, but I don’t want Skip to get 594 PAs when we’re trying to get PAs for Rasmus.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 9, 2009 5:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
me not understand argument
that Ankiel will be worth more than other guys there
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2009 5:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I said Schu
because it appears that Ank’s trade value is far less than I think it should be. Other teams know who his agent is too and I think the Cards are the only team that might get him signed for a reasonable amount. He does, after all, owe us for the patience we’ve shown over the years. Though I doubt that he’ll have a long career his ascent as a hitter/outfielder has been truly amazing and I have a feeling he’ll have a couple of years when he’s up in the MVP balloting. I also think that Lud’s year was not a total fluke and that we’ll need his right handed bat.
To tell you the truth I don’t want them to even trade Schu right now. I do think Ras is a great prospect but I don’t think he’s really ready. If Schu has a half a year to prove he’s the player he showed last year we might get something of value with him in a package. If Ras is raking in June then we can bring him up but, unless he just flat out proves he’s ready in ST I don’t want him sticking with the team.
I’m also not buying TLR’s endorsement of the kid as I doubt that he’s any more impressed with his one good month than I am. Don’[t know what his angle is though.
by easy on Jan 9, 2009 5:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think other teams
are convinced that Ankiel will keep hitting.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what tlr says is true
rasmus IS (probably) going to be a great player. He’ll absolutely “shove someone aside”, as TLR says, when he’s ready. But I agree, it won’t hurt anything except his ego (and his dad’s) to bring him up in June, if we can’t trade skip this spring.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 9, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Still a bit skeptical on that
I’m a long way from being a TLR hater, but after my initial excitement re: his comments on Rasmus (he seemed to be paving a path for him) I began to read “shove someone aside” in a different light.
Tony loves competition for spots (which is good) and if numbers are more or less equal he generally goes with experience over youth (fair enough). Because of that, I began to read “shove someone aside” as TonySpeak for- once he begins to put up numbers in the Show, then he’ll move someone aside.
If I’m correct (which would really be something), that would mean Rasmus gets cleanup duty for a bit. I don’t think there isn’t necessarily anything wrong with that, but I’m all for bringing him up ASAP and letting him take his lumps- which given his track record upon promotion would seem to be the likely outcome. To my mind, this means it’ll probably be 2010 before Rasmus is a regular.
Well, at least Tony’s openly acknowledging Rasmus’ talent- that’s progress.
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 11, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
by "cleanup..."
I don’t mean the 4 hole in the order- I should make that clear
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 11, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
listen to the interview
the mp3 is available in a couple of threads here. There’s nothing to read into anything, no innuendo; TLR is just saying Colby is going to be an elite player and when he’s ready, skip etc won’t keep him from making the big leagues.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 11, 2009 9:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Voted for Skip
If Raz could immediately replace and exceed the production of any of our outfielders on the roster it would be Skip. Shipping him almost ensures that Rasmus will be our leadoff hitter.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 9, 2009 6:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I voted skippy as well.
I ackowledge that this is more of a vote from the 10 year old kid inside me, but the odyssey Rick Ankiel has been one of the greatest things I have ever witnessed as a sports fan. I would have hard time seeing his story continued in another uniform. I also think his upside might me higher than any of us think. I mean, the dude is still learning.
I vote we ditch Skip, and hang onto Rick one more year. Maybe he resigns for a hometown discount, maybe not. At least it will be his decision to leave. If he decides to go elsewhere for more money, I think I could live with that, more so than dumping him off ’cause we are afraid of dealing with Bor-ASS.
And I say England's greatest prime minister was Lord Palmerston.
by tangledbrett on Jan 9, 2009 7:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Skippy!!!
Send him somewhere nice, maybe San Diego. I still believe that Ankiel can hit .280, hit 40 hr, and get over 100 RBI if he stays healthy long enough. This year is going to be fun to watch if Ank, Luddy, and Rasmus can show what they’re capable of. And if one of these guys goes down…we still have Mather!!!
Regarding Mather, will his hand injury from last year effect his production this year?
And about the hot stove…please, please can we get one more starter. PLEASE!!!
Chuck Norris bows to no man...but he does bow to The Mang.
by miniboscorino on Jan 9, 2009 7:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I voted Barton
just because the instruction said to pretend you are Tony. Pretty sure that is who he would vote off the OF island. Not that it would make a lot of sense…
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 9, 2009 9:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Kawakami
is reportedly heading to Atlanta. Bah. I wonder what the contract will be?
Despite rumors, Hummel said earlier today he’s never really heard his name that much, and earlier in the week Goold said the Cards are interested in Oliver Perez and Randy Wolf. Blech. I’d take Kawakami over either of those two.
Why do I feel we’re gonna end up with Jon Garland when it’s all said and done/
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 9, 2009 9:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
because the Cards only pick low hanging fruit
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 9, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Low hanging fruit
that is rotten and tastes bad.
by spants on Jan 10, 2009 1:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
although
i made a comment in another thread that i don’t know if garland would be so bad on a 1 year/5 mil type of deal. obviously it won’t add many wins but its better than pinero and it leaves us some of those funds for that elusive “mid-season” deal.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 9, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not so fast
I don’t think I’d want Randy Wolf at all, mainly because of his injury history.
Oliver Perez, on the other hand, interests me if we can get him on a fairly short contract (2-3Y) for around $20M-$25M, also known as “what the Cubs paid Jason Marquis.”
I think for that price he is worth it if the team believes that Duncan can get through to him. He seems to be the classic “Million dollar talent and ten cent head” type of guy. If he can get some instruction and learn how to gameplan for hitters I think he could be a really good addition because he can be unhittable at times.
I’d still rather have Ollie Perez than John Garland at any price.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perez
Has a career 4.67 FIP. Garland has a 4.74. Wolf 4.33.
People see Perez and think he’s going to one day break out b/c he racks up a lot of K’s, but the truth is he’s one of the most extreme flyball pitchers in the game and his command sucks. He survives on K’s and as he ages the K’s are going to fade away.
I’m not excited about any of the three pitchers, but if they sign Perez I will be highly disappointed. He’s represented by Boras who is trying to sell him as the next Koufax, so I don’t think he’s coming at a much of a marked down price, and to make things worse, he’s a Type A free agent.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that on the surface he looks like the worst pick
But I’ve seen him literally dominate other teams for stretches, and I haven’t seen that from Garland, ever. I think his biggest problem is his walk rate, and Duncan may be able to work with him to push his walks down to a reasonable level, like he’s done with Wellemeyer and Lohse in 2008. I’m not advocating giving him the farm, but if he’s still dangling there in spring training like Lohse was last year, wouldn’t it make sense for us to offer him a 1 or 2 year deal for an average of what Piniero is making? Hell, even at his worst he’s better than Joel is, right? I’m not so much concerned about the fly balls since Busch does a good job of suppressing those and the Cardinals should have one of the better fly ball catching outfields in 2009, and considering his fly ball rate, he doesn’t give up more than an average number of home runs. The shock to me is that Duncan would even be interested in a fly ball pitcher — which tells me that he might see some things that could make Perez more effective.
I just don’t think Randy Wolf can stay healthy — a one year deal would be great with him, but I just don’t think that really solves anything considering how bad the free agent pitchers are the next couple of seasons.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 10, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed about the 1 year guy, you don't want to go into next offseason needing multiple pitchers
which is a position we are likely to be in.
by TheBirds on Jan 10, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
out of those 3
I’d definitely want to get Wolf… he’s my prediction of who we’ll sign
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
anybody understand why Wolf is portrayed as "old reliable" in the press and Sheets
has a scary injury history? Sheets has a much better record in terms of IP (not to mention being an infinitely better pitcher). Perez is not particularly injury prone but is unstable in a way that’s at least as bad as Sheets’ injury issues.
by tom s. on Jan 11, 2009 4:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny read
Came across this when I was catching up on things on mlbtr. Interesting story about how the Phillies always acquire The Wrong Brother.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 9, 2009 10:51 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
That's hilarious...
I wonder if there’s another team in the history of the big leagues that’s had that many lesser brothers of quality major league players.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 9, 2009 11:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I instantly thought
of Vince Dimaggio. Hilarious.
Does this mean Chase Utley has a more talented brother somewhere?
by spants on Jan 10, 2009 1:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Idea: Bryan Anderson for Micah Owings
I think Mo should call up his old buddy Walt and offer him Bryan Anderson for Micah Owings straight up.
Reasons why this works for the Reds
- I am going to assume with Volquez, Cueto, Harrang, and Arroyo have the 1-4 spots in the Reds rotation locked up and there will be a battle for the 5th spot between Bailey and Owings.
- Bailey seems to have the upper hand in potential but lacks Owings in major league success. If the Reds are confident in Bailey for 2009, Owings likely is the odd man out of the rotation.
- Injuries are always a concern and having a strong 6th starter is nice, but if you can get your catcher of the future for your 6th starter I think you have to go for it.
- The Reds have Ramon Hernandez behind the dish for 2009 and hold an option for 2010 on him. This is a perfect situation for Anderson and the Reds alike. He could be called up mid season 09 and make a case for the Reds to buyout Hernandez’s contract. If he needs more time to develop they can exercise his option and give Anderson one more year of development.
- Jocketty was here when Anderson was drafted and I am sure he would love to have him back under his watch.
Reasons why this works for the Cardinals
- Owings may not be the number 1 or 2 starter that many of us covet to pair with Wainwright at the top of the rotation, but a cost controlled number 4/5 starter a valuable asset.
- He was shut down at the end of July last season with shoulder soreness and has a lot of time to rest and get back into pitching shape.
- Assuming that his shoulder checks out fine, he has shown a lot of potential and with a little more maturity I think you will be able to expect 6+ innings out of him every outing.
- He will essentially be replacing Looper. If healthy I think he can match Looper’s numbers from last year with maybe a slightly higher ERA.
- Bryan Anderson is obviously blocked by Yadier. His greatest value resides in what he will net us in a trade.
- Since Tony will be batting the pitcher 8th, we are going to need a replacement to Looper’s production. Owings will surely surpass that and to be honest Tony would love to send him to the dish to pinch hit, Jason Marquis status. :)
- We need another starter and it doesn’t look like Mo is going to be able to trade Ankiel for one or spend some money on a free agent.
What do you think, is this a fair trade? If so do you do it?
by El Hombre on Jan 9, 2009 11:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think its a fair trade for the reds...
Nor do I think that Jocketty will be doing deals to help make the Cardinals better. I love the thought of Owings batting 8th though…hell, i’d maybe even bump him up to 6th or 7th depending on who was in the lineup that day
I hate winter!!!!
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 10, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I also think the Reds traded for Owings because he was the pitcher they wanted. He also was a stud postion player, so there’s that too if the pitching thing really doesn’t work out. They would be more inclined to move Bailey-who they probably won’t because his stock is down. Jocketty won’t be dealing anything to the Cardinals IMO.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 10, 2009 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it's fair for us
Owings is a borderline major league starter, at best.
by chuckb on Jan 10, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And we don't need a first baseman or corner outfielder either
So if he doesn’t work out we have no place to move him to take advantage of his bat.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We could do what the cubs are going to do with Bradley
We’ll DH him!
Oh, wait……
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who would be...
our leadoff hitter if Skippy depart?
by Elpot on Jan 10, 2009 12:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Colby
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 10, 2009 2:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
100
internet dollars says kennedy leads off for us more than a couple of times this year
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hell
I’ll make it 1,000,000 internet dollars. The recession can’t touch my virtual funds!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 10, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have a feeling that if I were Tony, I'd ask to move Barton.
If I were me, I’d move Ankiel.
by mattybobo on Jan 10, 2009 7:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Barton & Mather are competing
in ST w/Lil Duncan for the remaining OF spot. Possibly all three go to Memphis to begin the year IF Colby makes the roster.
I’d see if the Orioles have any interest in Duncan—since they’re apparently looking for a LH power bat at 1B.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:
by gocards62 on Jan 10, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Possibly all three go to Memphis to begin the year IF Colby
makes the roster.
Ludwick
Skip
Ank
Colby
Open bench spot
——————————————-
Barton
Mather
Dunc
- * If Colby makes the team out of camp, two of the three are likely going to Memphis absent a trade. Not all 3. And C. Duncan is out of options. They won’t DFA him. IMHO, C. Duncan only goes to Memphis for a rehab assignment.
But there is no way we open up with 4 left-handed outfielders and one right-handed. That means Mather or B. Barton make the team (edge to Mather). The bottom line is this: there is no room for Colby to make the roster without one of these outfielders being moved: Ankiel, Skip, or Duncan.
by jjray on Jan 10, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Unless Duncan completely tears the cover off of the ball in ST, he definitely needs to start the year in Memphis. Luddy/Raz/Ank/Schu/Mather. That is what I see our OF consisting of this season barring a trade.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 10, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
that’s what I think it’ll be too
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with you
but I doubt that will happen. If Duncan is healthy he will be on the big league roster. The only way he will be in Memphis is if they can find some way to call it a rehab. Not certain, but I think he is out of options.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 10, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
BoSox acquiting all the injury risks.
The BoSox are stealing Mo’s playbook from last year. First, they sign Penny. Then, they sign Smoltz. Now, they have signed Saito.
That seems like a lot of injury risks for one offseason, to me.
by etp_stl on Jan 10, 2009 11:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
too bad
thought saito might be a fit. still favor bringing back springer to close as often as he is able and fitting the young guys in around him.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jan 10, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I liked what Springer did, but ...
LaRussa had to be pretty sparing with him last year. He doesn’t seem to be able to bounce back fast enough to be regularly available on back-to-back days. What do you think?
by etp_stl on Jan 10, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Springer
was used like a ROOGY last year. He was our best reliever, but he wasn’t really thrown into the fire as much as some of the other guys. He also probably won’t be able to pitch back to back days very frequently.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ROOGY of the Year?
Sorry, couldn’t pass up a bad pun.
Screw you, Aaron Miles. "Hope you tear your ACL, jackass!!" - Carl
by Zoop on Jan 10, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Especially for a team that has plenty of arms to begin with
both in the big leagues and in the high minors as well.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 10, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It didn't work out
for Mo, but something tells me it will work for the Sox.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Outta MLBTR
Kawakami a Brave. Not sure what to think as there is no other info and this isn’t by any means official.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 10, 2009 2:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Cardinals whiff again.
The rotation is all set up to completely sabotage the season.
by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is how I feel
Say Carp ever gets injured for a significant part of the season. (probable)
Waino
Lohse
Welly
Piniero
? (Dry Powder, Boggs, or KMac)
And if someone else goes down, we’re just completely sunk!
by TheBirds on Jan 10, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we lost our ace last season
and the other ace was a non-factor, and we still barely missed the playoffs
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 10, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But
Wellemeyer and Lohse had awesome years that we’d be foolish to expect again. We also lost Looper. I don’t see how:
2008 (12th in MLB ERA) rotation – Looper = 2009 Playoffs
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you expect...
…Carpenter to do anything of value this season and Wellemeyer/Lohse to repeat their performances of last season? I suppose you’re entitled to that opinion, but I wouldn’t count on it.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 11, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
11 games out is barely?
And for the wild card, there were what, at least 3 other teams in front of them…
Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)
by DiscoJer on Jan 11, 2009 1:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's discuss that
The Brewers were in front of us, looking at their rotation, which is in worse shape than ours, I don’t see them anywhere near us. The Astros rotation is in a similar status. The Cubs, if they have Peavy, will have probably the scariest rotation in baseball. I see us, barring injury (Which never happens), I see us 2nd in the division, a lot of people will probably disagree with me, but hey, all in good taste.
by Taskmaster on Jan 11, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I see us 2nd
in the division if we get Lowe. Granted, we could be 2nd without him but that would be a second place with too few wins to make the postseason. This team isn’t about to win more games than the Cubs without some serious acquisitions (or a lot of luck). I mean like getting Lowe and Ohman then trading from the OF to get a better 2B. We will be playing for the wild card which means we need to focus on winning as many games as possible, not focusing on reaching 2nd place.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dude, carp's ready. no worries.
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jan 10, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is there
new news on him that I haven’t hear?
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heard*
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 8:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well played
i LOL’d ;)
Well, more of a “exhaled through the nostrils in an audible snort”…
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 11, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how much this affects the Braves pursuit of Lowe
Also, does anyone know how much Kawakami got? I’ve seen that it’s a three year deal, but I haven’t seen a $$ amount anywhere.
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 10, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The VEB articale on Lowe raised a lot of people's expectations IMO.
I don’t think it’s even a possibility we sign him, I doubt the Cardinals are even pursuing him. I really think Lowe might be the steal of the offseason too, much less durable pitchers of equal or lesser talent have gotten more money in past years than he is expected to get.
by TheBirds on Jan 10, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sorry about that
BTW, it looks like the Braves are the frontrunners for Lowe also — having offered him somewhere around 3 years and $40-42 M. We should be in there. That’s reasonable money and I’d include a 4th year vesting option. There’s no reason not to be at least matching that kind of offer. If he then prefers the Braves, so be it, but I think a 4th year vesting option could clinch it.
by chuckb on Jan 10, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And once the Braves sign Lowe
the Padres will start to get panicky again and will end up shipping Peavy to the cubs for Ronny Cedeno, Felix Pie and Donald Veal.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 10, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Donald Veal went to the Pirates in the rule 5 draft, but your point is still there.
by ol Pete on Jan 10, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah yes.
That’s why his name was fresh in my memory. Yeah, it was just the first shitty prospect pitcher of theirs that popped in my mind.
Let’s substitute Rich Hill. He struggled at rookie ball this year, but I’m sure he’s gonna get it figured out soon.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 10, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No kidding
Even if we don’t get him for that much, why not make another team have to pay more for him? Lowe would fix a lot of problems and I think he’s a great fit for St. Louis. Groundball pitcher, good defense, Dave Duncan…
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Might head into
ST without a contract.
by spants on Jan 10, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I do not see that happening
He’s too old to take a one year deal for a small amount of money because he can’t parlay another good season into a 3 or 4 years deal like Lohse did. He’s also coming off a season when he was one of the top 5 starting pitchers in the National League, it’s going to be pretty hard to improve on that performance if he can’t get a contract this season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guarantee he'll take a one year deal
over a no year deal.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No one said
“small amount of money.” I was just interpreting Cards Fan in Chitown’s comment.
by spants on Jan 11, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But if he's the "new Lohse"
that would imply that he would take a one year deal for less than what he’s worth to parlay a good season into the type of contract he was looking for originally. I don’t think that he can take the risk of doing that since he’s looking for a 3-4 year deal right now and he’d be 36 after next season.
Even a 1 year deal worth $15M would be bad for him, considering that he’s been offered 3Y$36M and 3Y$40-$42M. It would be a very bad business decision for him to give up $36M – $42M worth of guaranteed money for $15M of guaranteed money. Lohse wasn’t ever even offered on contract in that range. So to say that Lowe is the 2009 version of 2008 Kyle Lohse is misinterpreting things a bit.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And what's he supposed to do if no one offers him that multi-year deal?
Sit out the year and get it next year? I doubt it.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 12, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is...
There are rumors of multi-year deals out there from reputable sources. There were no rumors of multi year deals for Kyle Lohse last year at this time because he was shopping for a contract similar to what Carlos Silva had gotten. Furthermore, Lohse didn’t cost us a draft pick for that one year contract, but it doesn’t make sense to give up a draft pick to get a guy for one year. At least not to me. If we’re giving up the pick, lets get 3 good years out of that particular pitcher.
Lowe won’t end up sitting out the year. He’ll take one of the offers from the Mets or Braves.
Sheets is similar to Lohse in that nobody wants to sign him to a long term deal because of injury problems. He might be available in the early spring as a potential pick up, but, then again, you have to give up your first round pick if you sign him unless it’s protected.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I get what you're saying
But now I’m wondering, what if those 3 year deals aren’t good enough? He apparently laughed at the offer by the Mets, why would he take it now if he can get a 1 year deal and hopefully get a better deal in a better financial market next year (I know, big risk).
But, I guess your point is that he’ll take a lower 3 year deal because he’s guaranteed to get paid for 3 years. i could see that happening.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 12, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe I'm wrong
maybe I’m not
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 12, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wondered the same thing
Although someone said in this thread they read somewhere it didn’t, unfortunately, affect it at all. I also noticed that the Mets apparently have an agreement with Tim Redding (1/$2.25). I would guess that low a contract would also mean they are not necessarily out of the Lowe sweepstakes either.
When I saw all the signings running across the bottom of the screen during the Game 7 replay, I let myself, for about 30 seconds, get excited that this meant the Braves and Mets knew we were going to sign Lowe. Then I woke up.
by ArkansasTravs on Jan 11, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i've been preaching patience
but this is starting to get stupid. They’re not going to sign Sheets or Lowe, no one is probably going to give us a #3 for Ankiel and now they are stuck with mediocrity. They may as well as offered Looper arbitration if they were going to let this drag out with nothing else really left but Wolf and Garland.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I've read somewhere
That if they’d have offered Looper arbitration and had to sign him, it’d cost them at least 10M. When, they could sign him sometime this month and probably get him for 6M.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't see
How Looper would cost $10M in arbitration. Last year he was a 1.3 WAR player which means he’d be worth just under $6M. Then again, Lohse was a 1.7 which means he’d be worth about $7.5M….if he put up the same numbers again…..
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
now this is in all seriousness
but does a players worth according to WAR get taken into account when the arbitration process is put in motion? I suppose an arbitrator uses some of these sabermetric tools when he makes his decision on which offer to take, but does anyone know if they use such advanced ones? Sometimes I think the arbitrator just pulls a side of out his/her hat.
Also, my spell-check know what that sabermetric is a word!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 11, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably not
I would be surprised to find out that arbitrators used WAR. I just figure that since the price per WAR and the WAR numbers themselves are reflective of the state of the league during a given year, they should correlate at least somewhat with the more everyday stats that arbitrators may look at.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Same thoughts here. I’m expecting just ERA, WHIP, and that kind of stuff from them.
by astrostl on Jan 11, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wins.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this one is probably it
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 11, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny how the stats
that do the absolute worst job of indicating player performance (wins, saves, RBI) are the ones that have the most weight when it comes to money.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Arbitrators know very little about baseball
They are legal entities brought into the process to make a decision and the cases are argued just like a legal arbitration would be argued in any other civil case. They wouldn’t have the slightest idea about what the sabermetric tools are or what they mean, so the best thing is to use the stats that they would follow in the newspaper.
This is also the reason that it’s going to make a whole lot of sense to avoid arbitration when you have a player with horrible peripheral’s and rate stats and good counting numbers, and vice versa. Avoiding arbitration altogether would be the best possible conclusion for every team actually. Either sign them or don’t, and make sure they aren’t going to accept it if you offer them arbitration.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right
I realize what arbitrators are and that they know little or nothing about baseball, I should have worded one of my above comments better. I didn’t mean
I would be surprised to find out that arbitrators used WAR.
I meant the cases that each side presents likely don’t use WAR or other advanved stats because the arbitrator won’t understand them.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't know if I agree with your first paragraph
Granted, I don’t know a dang thing about the deliberations in an arbitration case, but this just doesn’t seem to jive.
Would I expect an arbiter to know or understand sabermetric stats? Not necessarily. But I would be willing to bet that an arbiter would have better than a cursory knowledge of the metrics used to evaluate talent in the sport for which they’re being paid to provide a professional, legal service. It’s not like a judge in a criminal case is clueless as to the reliability of DNA evidence, the veracity of eyewitness claims, the precedents of the case their presiding over. It’s safe to say that legal arbiters as a whole can be expected to be a pretty well-prepared group.
Further, suppose I’m incorrect about this and the arbiter is in fact a statistical blank slate (or at least only familiar with box score stats). Wouldn’t it still be in the best interests of one or both of the parties (the player and/or the team) to use some sabermetric stats (the ones most concerned with establishing a player’s overall value) to bolster their case? If so, wouldn’t it then be the responsibility of the arguing party or the arbiter him/herself to educate the arbiter?
Example: Team X is arguing that Player Y should be paid $5 million next season, while Player Y is arguing he should be paid $8 million (just pulling round figures out of thin air here). If Team X’s argument is based on the fact that Player Y had a record of 4-9 last season with a 4.75 ERA, wouldn’t it be in Player Y’s interest to point out that his FIP was 3.95, and necessarily explaining what FIP is, how it’s derived, how predictive of a stat it is, etc.?
I would find it hard to believe that neither the player nor the team officials would have all those SABR stats out in front of them, ready to explain and use in front of the arbiter to make the best case. Given that there are (usually) millions of dollars on the line, is it really reasonable to believe that a team or a player just goes in to an arbitration case hoping the arbiter doesn’t read Fangraphs?
I wouldn’t think so.
Then again, you would think that MLB would have a legal team capable enough of cleaning up the loopholes in its amateur drafting system, but every few years, a newly discovered one is exploited. So who knows.
"Chokes it hard down on the knob from the right side. Stands erect deep in the box."
by arch support on Jan 12, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You have MLB front offices that can't use Sabermetric stats correctly
But you think that an arbitrator would?
Generally the only argument that the player has is valuing his worth in comparison to other players at his position and what they make on the average. Then trying to show how much better that player is than the average player at his position.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Boras probably does know how to use the stats
and he is the one arguing for the larger amount of money. I’m sure that his legal team would present the information in such a manner that the arbitration board would understand.
by ubeddie on Jan 12, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's exactly what I was going to argue, ubeddie
Both sides have an agenda — the agent’s is to get as much money as possible, and the team’s is generally the opposite. To the extent that sabermetric stats advance either argument, I think its pretty safe to assume that one side (or both) will use them in making their argument to the arbitrator. Even if arbitrators don’t have an independent understanding of them, they are pretty sharp people who can learn quickly — especially when the teachers have an incredible incentive in helping them understand.
Actually, I know an MLB arbitrator. Sharp guy. He did Kyle Lohse’s arbitration with the Twins. A buddy of mine from Minnesota gave him a hard time — “you gave Lohse $X? He’s rotten!” The arbitrator immediately defended his decision with a statistical analysis of Lohse’s worth — I’m not sure if he used Sabermetric stats because I don’t think I even knew what they were at the time. I guess my point (finally!) is that he’s not really a baseball guy but clearly understood and retained what was argued before him. Extrapolate that over several arbitrations, and I think arbitrators become generally familiar with Sabermetric stats.
by Ray Lankford on Jan 13, 2009 8:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly what I was trying to say.
Your first paragraph phrased it better than I did in seven paragraphs.
I’m always a little suspicious when someone makes a claim that “X professionals are a bunch of dummies and just don’t understand [insert pet subject here]”. No offense to fourstick, but it seems to me to that it’s overly dismissive to just assume that a professional doesn’t know how to do their job. Are there plenty of instances where that’s true? Sure. But that shouldn’t speak for the whole.
"Chokes it hard down on the knob from the right side. Stands erect deep in the box."
by arch support on Jan 13, 2009 9:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think fourstick nailed it
arbitrators know their profession, but their profession is “arbitration”, not “statistical analysis of baseball players”.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 13, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But knowing baseball statistics isn't "their job"
Arbitration is. They are arbitrators who see different cases of arbitration between union members and business executives in all facets of the legal system each year. They don’t need to be skilled in evaluating baseball talent, the members of each counsel need to be. I really don’t think that using sabermetric tools to accomplish this will be effective simply because most of the tools are too complicated to understand without knowing the practice in which they are used. It’s easier to compare them using statistics that an everyday baseball fan would know and recognize.
That said, I think that the arbitrators used by major league baseball are very, very smart men when it comes to determining what is fair for both sides. If you read the book on the history of the baseball players union you will get a very good impression of the arbitration process. The book is antiquated and there are more rules now, but most of the arbitrators in the book were brought in for their expertise in deciding what was fair for both sides, not determining who was a better player.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 13, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
I am gonna have to go back to using the preview button, because not only does my spell-check not know that sabermetric is a word, it decides it is okay to delete key words in my replies
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 11, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing
it adds words as well.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it seems that way
I have made drunken comments that made more sense than that last line.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 11, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
anybody
when does a type a free agent no longer cost a team a draft pick? Isn’t there a certain date?
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 10:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
If you don’t know, then I’m speechless. When I read your question, I thought about posting it on Future Redbirds hoping erik would know and then I checked to see who was asking the question…….
Btw, I’m of no help but was wondering this same thing yesterday. I can’t imagine guys like Juan Cruz and Orlando Cabrera not being signed by anyone simply because they’re Type A’s so it’s got to expire at some point, right?
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 10, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the only thing I can find
that even approaches addressing this topic is this thread that, incidentally, includes some of our members. In any case, mlb traderumors has nothing about it. Keith Law’s post from a couple of years ago has nothing on it and Buster Olney’s post from a couple days ago about type A free agents being in “purgatory” has nothing on it.
From that I’m going to conclude that there is, in fact, no doubt beyond which players lose their Type A status. Is it possible that certain free agents may go unsigned, or get really low value contracts next month or in March simply b/c they’re type A free agents? How cheap would Juan Cruz have to be before it becomes worth it to lose a 1st round draft pick for him?
by chuckb on Jan 10, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“How cheap would Juan Cruz have to be before it becomes worth it to lose a 1st round draft pick for him?”
Can he pay us money to play?
by azruavatar on Jan 10, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
to answer my own question
it’s not until after the rule 4 draft, or so i was able to find
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
to complete my conversation w/myself
that sucks.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not complete yet
when’s the rule 4 draft?
by chuckb on Jan 10, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that would be the amateur draft right?
so June. The crazy thing is, if there were every going to be a year someone was left, this might be it. Okay, things can’t get THAT crazy.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 10, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
June 6
or there abouts
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wonder
if it’s may 1, like when fa’s can sign with old team that offered arb?
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jan 10, 2009 11:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
they can do that now
the new CBA changed that rule
by chuckb on Jan 10, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If this has already been covered, I'll probably look like an idiot, oh well
According to ESPN Hot Stove,
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove08/index
the Padres don’t really have a CF, perhaps we could stick it to the Cubs and get an ace pitcher in Peavy for a package of Ankiel. I know we discussed dealing Ludwick to them for Peavy, but what about a package of Ankiel, Schumaker, and Freese for Peavy and perhaps another prospect?
Other ideas:
Ankiel and Skip to the nationals for Anderson Hernandez, John Lannon, and another prospect
Ankiel and another prospect to the Blue Jays for Jesse Carlson
by Taskmaster on Jan 10, 2009 11:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Padres would laugh at that trade offer
No way would we get Peavy for Ankiel, Skip and Freese.
by bmorgan on Jan 11, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
It wasnt meant to be a perfect idea, mainly just to get some conversation, ideas etc. goin.
by Taskmaster on Jan 11, 2009 12:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Peavy thing has been beaten to death
and if it were actually possible to get him for as little as Ankiel, Skip and Freese (who, btw, SD just recently traded to us), then the Cards probably should have done it yesterday.
by bmorgan on Jan 11, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Chris Young
How about Ank +freese+schu for Chris Young. I know he only pitched 100 innings last year but this was mainly due to a cosmetic injury so it shouldnt effect his pitching. Other than this he has had three straight good if not great years especially considering the imo bargain contract he signed (due 4.5 mil this year and 6.25 next!!). Anyone one else interested in this?? Plus the fact that he wont have to pitch to pujols again will surely help his pysche ;)
by kopite92 on Jan 12, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately
All the reasons you list for why he’s a good option are also the same reasons why he’s a good candidate to hang around in SD.
I’d love this, though. I just don’t think Ank/Freese/Schu would be enough.
by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2009 12:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably
Because they are asking too much for him.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder
Would they give us Peavy for Ankiel and my left arm?
by Taskmaster on Jan 11, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It would
probably pitch about as well as Mulder’s left arm.
That was bad, I know…
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm just gonna throw this out there
not advocating, just wanna hear the arguments…
the problem is pitching, but w/a lack of impact arms in the Cards price range (w/the exception Sheets will sign at a discount b/c of injury hist.), should the Cards take a look at the Orlando Hudson?
The good: He’s found a tepid market and should come well under 10 mil, barring the Mets move Castillo.
He’s a 3 win player if he can rediscover his fielding ability.
The bad: Type A FA
He may never find the the D again.
Recovering from a wrist injury, I believe.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 10, 2009 11:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
"the" Orlando Hudson
use the preview button next time, genius.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 11, 2009 1:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if we can get "the" Orlando Hudson
I would be okay with it. Hell, I would be happy with it. I am still holding out hope that AK is traded, and while I would prefer we got a SP, if we could get nothing more than a Garland type I wouldn’t be too upset with a signing of Hudson. If Hudson is healthy, I would really be happy with our MIF for the first time in several years.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 11, 2009 1:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Totally Unnecessary, does the word “the” really offend you that much?
by Taskmaster on Jan 11, 2009 1:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was replying to himself
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What about
Signing Hudson and then Looper for a cheap 1 year deal. I would rather get a good SP, but this could be an acceptable* backup plan.
*I shuddered while typing this. Just so you know.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course,
deal? not deal. Idiot
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Totally Uncalled for. No name calling!
;-)
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No kidding
I should flag that jerk thegodfather. What a tool!
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know about that
But you just called him a name. NO NAME CALLING!
FLAGGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Two things would have to happen
- He would have to sign for less than what Mark Ellis signed for (2Y$11M). I know that’s insanely cheap, but he’s not currently a three win player and would have to improve drastically to be a three win player.
- He would have to pass an extensive physical so that we can be sure that the wrist is going to be better than 90% at some point.
I’d rather wait and see if he gets any offers and then sign him in spring training for a pittance…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Forgot this as well
What about signing Grudzilanek to a 2 year/6 million dollar deal to perhaps put at 2nd base? He was running really hot until he didn’t play for a long stretch, and batted .299 while he played.
by Taskmaster on Jan 11, 2009 12:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
No
Piling the 2nd base crap heap higher. The guy is a marginal upgrade over Kennedy at absolute best and the team’s biggest flaw is the rotation. This solution doesn’t change anything other than make the team older and with one more bad contract.
Batting average is a very poor measure of a player’s performance. Look at OBP and OPS+.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 11, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Infinitely prefer seeing what Barden/Thurston/Ryan can do to putting grudz back there.
by tom s. on Jan 11, 2009 4:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Barden didn't earn a look-see after the season
he put up in 2008, they just need to release him. I mean c’mon…….at least take a look at him.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 9:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure the Cardinals' scouts did look at him
and probably thought that he wasn’t a major league quality player. Just because they didn’t call him up, doesn’t mean they didn’t do their due diligence.
by azruavatar on Jan 11, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine.
Then send him on his way. It’s not like he’s 22.
I wasn’t implying that they didn’t do their due diligence-I was stating that the NUMBERS say he deserves to be looked at. That’s all. If they have already determined he’s not a major league quality player, get someone else for that roster spot.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“get someone else for that roster spot”
Why? He maybe their best option still. As much as we may hate it at time, they’re not obligated to do what’s best for the player.
by azruavatar on Jan 11, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They should do what's best for the team...
Which means giving guys like Barden a chance at playing in the majors, so he can be evaluated better.
Why not give him a try, instead of picking up other team’s discards, like Floppy, who the Cardinals apparently had no intention of bringing back next year (since it’s not like he could have done much better for the Cardinals). It’s not like they were in the race this year…
Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)
by DiscoJer on Jan 11, 2009 8:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“Which means giving guys like Barden a chance at playing in the majors, so he can be evaluated better.”
This just isn’t how teams operate. If a scout goes and watches someone at AAA and says, I don’t think he’s a major leaguer they don’t all look at each other and then decide that they need to see him in the bigs. You have to trust your scouts to a certain degree.
Other team’s discards might still be better than Barden. There’s a difference between having a good season in AAA and being replacement level in the majors.
by azruavatar on Jan 11, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I totally disagree with this entire line of reasoning
And it is always your argument for players like this too:
“He should be given a shot at winning a job or we should just outright release him and send him on his way.”
What about that makes any sense at all? So we evaluated him and didn’t think he’s make it in the big leagues we should release him? If we try him out there in spring training and he doesn’t win the job we should just let him go? What happens when Kennedy and the backup go down with injuries and we need someone for a couple of weeks to fill in a second base? What if he comes up at that time and pulls a Mike Aviles?
I’m sorry, but why should we always do what’s best for the player when that isn’t what’s best for the organization? Do you honestly think that every free agent and every player in the Cardinals minor league organization gives any mind to whether the organization releases a potentially helpful player?
What’s more, there’s not even a top prospect at second base in the Cardinals minor league organization right now, so why should we release him when he might be the best player at second base in the organization? I don’t see how it makes any sense to do that when we could keep him as an insurance policy all year long and hope that he breaks out at some point.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry if that came off as crass
I just now proofread it…
I’d just like you to explain how it is best for the organization to just cut players loose that we don’t currently have a spot for. I think it is a very poor way of developing depth of personnel at the minor league level.
I honestly don’t think that cutting Barden loose would be the best thing for the player either. Being told you you’re not needed by an organization when you had such a great year in AAA in 2008 would be the ultimate slap in the face.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, gee. Don't be.
I’m done.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then explain yourself!
Now I feel like I didn’t need to apologize…
You seem to have a moral high horse on which you look down on the rest of us when it comes to players you don’t feel are “treated properly”. Major League Baseball is a business, not a daycare. There’s really no room for emotional attachments to players by the front office, it only detracts from being able to make the moves that are necessary to win ballgames each season.
As fans we get the opportunity to have a different view of the game and an emotional attachment to it. That is what draws us to the game and keeps us there, but it lends to bad business decisions.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 11, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I did explain myself-in very simple terms.
I wrote two short posts about Brian Barden. And now you are accusing me of being on a moral high horse. They were my opinions, and I obviously have a different opinion than you do.
I don’t usually respond in anger; I apologize for that. But don’t think I should be raked over the coals because I have a different opinion than you do.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry to jump in
But I don’t think fourstick is raking you over the coals because you two have a difference of opinion. I don’t think he’s raking you over the coals at all, actually. He’s disagreeing with your opinion and pointing out why he disagrees. Your opinion is supported by mere conclusory statements; statements that you’ve made before, many times with regard to Anthony Reyes.
I think all that fourstick is trying to do is point out that if the organization followed your line of reasoning, it could lead to absurd results. Disagree with him? Explain why your point still stands, but explain it as opposed to stating it.
by Ray Lankford on Jan 12, 2009 7:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is entirely the point I'm getting at
I know exactly what her point is, i’m just trying to figure out why she thinks that it’s better for both organization and player to do things in the manner she states, and she’s offered no explanation as to why she thinks this way.
I’m not raking her over the coals about her opinion, I’m just trying to find out why she takes this attitude with players in Barden’s situation. I’ve brought this up before in discussions about Anthony Reyes and I still haven’t received an answer.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 9:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To an extent
I agree with Jill. Just because it’s a business doesn’t mean people aren’t worthy of respect. Using a real life example, I worked at Starbucks for 4+ years. We had health benefits (as long as you worked 20 hrs a week), we had 401(k) matching, we received bonuses if the company did well, we were trained properly. One of the company’s guiding principles was that all Starbucks employees treat each other and the customer with dignity and respect. For a service job, it was awesome. I know plenty of people who have “real” jobs that are treated far worse than Starbucks used to treat their employees.
Notice that I said “used to.” Starbucks screwed themselves through rapid expansion. Existing employees were sent to new stores (usually only two of them) where they had to train 10+ people on their own at once. New people never got trained properly, beverage quality went down, same store sales went down, employees that had been with the company a long time got burnt out and quit. New people quit because they were in over their heads. Starbucks used to have the best turnover rates in the food/service industry. That all changed in about 18 months. And yet, Starbucks kept expanding in order to keep stock prices up. They became less choose-y in the their real estate. It snow-balled out of control.
Today, Starbucks is a mess. The stock is down to like $8 a share. Employee health care costs went up. Starbucks is no longer matching 401(k), unless they feel like it, and there is no set rate. They took the “respect and dignity” line out of the mission statement! The business model is inconsistent and new promotions are rolling out with very little notice and little time to train employees. Since the employees are unhappy, the company is not going to rebound. For Starbucks, everything begins and ends with service. If customers aren’t being treated well, they’re not going to come in. And if employees aren’t being treated well, customers aren’t going to be treated well.
All of this is to say that the way you treat employees matters. It has an effect on business. And if you treat your employees poorly, they will not perform as well as you want them too, and they will not encourage others to work for the same company.
I think with baseball, we forget these guys are human. They aren’t just commodities. They have feelings and thoughts and deserve respect from their employers. I’m not 100% behind what Jill is saying. But I do see her point. And I also see the value in treating people like people, and not like items. That said, these people are seriously well-paid. League minimum is more than most of us will ever earn in a year. I think many of them see the paycheck as respect, and not necessarily the interpersonal relationships. And I think we all use this as a justification for the job insecurity that the players have, especially the marginal players. Yes, it is part of the business. Yes, they are all adults. But ending things on a pleasant note – like a phone call, or a handshake, whatever – sends a better message about the organization.
In the end, there is something to be said about treating people well, and there is a perception among some fans that the Cardinals – and other teams – don’t always treat people well.
by spants on Jan 12, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with any of that at all
What I fail to understand is how cutting a guy from a AAA roster is better for him and better for us? I certainly don’t think that it’s better for Barden — the kid has worked hard on his game the last two years, made the Olympic team, and then he gets cut by the Cardinals organization because their scouts don’t feel that he’s big league material, without even giving him a shot to win the job? There’s not much more heartbreaking than that. I also don’t think it’s good for the Cardinals either in reality or in perception. If the best interests of your organization are always focused around what’s best for your minor league prospects you aren’t going to win too many games.
There’s also this perception that someone like Barden feels mistreated, given the quotes that some other Cardinal farmhands (both pitchers) have said over the past 2 years. I don’t think either of those pitchers was ever going to make it here: both were headstrong, both spoke up a little to much about certain things that should be kept in the clubhouse, and neither performed at a particularly high level when given the opportunities that they were given, save for one great World Series start.
I don’t understand the perception that this organization doesn’t treat people well. Most of the veteran players who have played here, and many of the younger ones too, have great respect for the Cardinal tradition and fanbase. I’ve yet to hear a veteran go out and badmouth the organization as a whole after leaving. Sure, there have been some players who have feuded publicly with Tony or Dave, but they don’t call out the Cardinals organization as one that you wouldn’t want to play for.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I should've clarified.
As an overall theme, I agree with Jill that baseball players deserve to be treated as human beings and are worthy of respect even though they are just one teeny, tiny cog in a big machine.
I do not agree that we should cut players that don’t fit our immediate needs. I think we should try to use that talent to acquire the players we do need. Somehow that whole “he should be cut” thing slipped my mind. Sorry.
by spants on Jan 12, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'd love it..
… if someone could provide a single reason why the Cards should outright cut a potentially useful player.
no other organizations just cuts fringe-y prospects in the high minors for no particular reason, so why should the Cards? it makes no sense at all. organizational depth is a very important thing, especially at a position of weakness currently held by a guy who’s been an injury-risk the past few years. and i very much doubt that if the Cards cut Barden he’s gonna get a multi-year, MLB contract someplace else. he’d be pretty lucky to find another AAA job.
by kindred on Jan 12, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just 'cause you mentioned it
Grudz ’08
OB% .345
OPS+ 100
(I still wouldn’t want to sign him)
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 11, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly average in every sense of the word
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 11, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that your birthday?
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's Grudzy's
He’s getting up there for a second baseman
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 12, 2009 8:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i said Barton
from those choice,
I just dont think anyone is going to trade a good pitcher for one year of Ankiel.
Its just not going to happen,
So I send Barton down to AAA or trade him for whatever, because we will probably never see him again. He is way back on the OF depth chart.
that would give us an OF of Ludwick, Ras, Ank
then Id keep Skip and Mather on the bench.
We would still have to do something about Duncan, but I dont know what. i think he falls into our pit of OFs with very little trade value.
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 11, 2009 3:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
and besides that will give us our most potent OF
Lud, Ank, Ras would be really solid all the way across, but if you replace Ank with skip, or whatever its a big hit.
I suppose IF Mather really comes up big or something it wouldnt be so bad, but I doubt it
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 11, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The only problem I see
Is that since TLR wants a leadoff hitter, Skip is going to play a lot. I also forsee Mather hitting his way into a lot more PAs, sort of like Ludwick did last year, though almost surely not to that extent. This would be the best outfield, but I think that Skip would take too many PAs from the other 4 more capable guys.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I say MO needs to
take all Tony’s toys away. Miles is already gone, Izzy looks to be gone, and Skip should be next. If we can get a promising prospect at any level for him he should be moved.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 11, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That seems like
a smart idea. That would give PAs to guys with more upside and guys with more talent. Skip’s a fine player, but we don’t need him. This could be an ideal spring training move. See what we have, let other teams see what they have, then find a good new home for Skippy. (Sounds like I’m talking about a dog) Question is, who would lead off?
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It would pretty much have to be
Rasmus leading off. TLR indicated he wouldn’t have a problem with batting him leadoff whenever it is that he is deemed to be ready.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 11, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds good to me
That means that he would be given a lot of PAs pretty much by default since he’s the leadoff guy
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel was my choice
For many of the reasons listed above.
-He would bring back the most value
-He has one year left on his contract
-He will be due a significant salary increase
In terms of the other players, Barton probably has the least value. Skip also makes sense for a trade, assuming they don’t try him at 2nd base.
by JWO on Jan 11, 2009 10:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I happen to think Brian Barton is the PTBNL in the Greene deal.
It makes sense for the Padres.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that even allowed?
I can’t remember a major league player ever being on a PTBNL list. I was thinking it was a minor league pitcher.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is only allowed
if he is in the minors when the deal is made. Unless the rule has changed the PTBNL has to be traded to a different league
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 11, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the rule has changed
I had some confusion about this a couple of months ago and now I can’t remember exactly how it was explained to me. But, I do know that Barton was on the active roster at the end of the season.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just looked it up.
You get 6 months to finalize the deal, and the player has to change leagues. Probably not Barden then. I’ll have to go back through the name cards now…..unless they can send him back to Memphis and then move him to the Padres. Nah, probably not that either. Got to be someone else.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I meant Barton, not Barden. Although it could be Barden, no?
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 11, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember hearing
that the ptbnl was not going to be someone that was currently on the 40 man roster.
so that excludes Barton…and Barden too I beleive.
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe
by fatbellyjefferson on Jan 12, 2009 9:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your points are contradictory
Since Ankiel has only one year left on his contract and is due a significant salary increase works to lessen what the Cardinals could ask for in return as opposed to someone like Ryan Ludwick (who matches up better with Ankiel than anyone else does) who is cheap and under team control for another 2 or 3 years.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he means value
As opposed to any of the other players aside from Ludwick. I don’t know about anyone else but I’m content with not trading Luddy, we’re not going to come close to fair value for him this offseason.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying I want to trade Ludwick
I was just using him as a comparison.
Frankly, I’d love to trade Ankiel, but I’m just saying I don’t think he’s quite as valuable to other teams as he is valued by the Cardinals and, more importantly, to Cardinal fans who many hold him extremely high.
Plus, he’s still fairly inexperienced, 30 years old and has a history of injuries and is coming off one that wrecked his final two months last season. Almost everything about him lowers his trade value.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I didn't think
that you were saying you wanted to trade Luddy. I agree with everything you just said. I was just trying to better explain what I thought JWO meant, sorry for the confusion.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 12, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Michael Young wants out of Texas
and takers?
link
he has 5 years & $80mill left on his deal. ouch.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 11, 2009 10:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yes
IF
1)The Rangers eat a LOT of salary
2)We can play him at 2B
Since they were wanting to move him to 3rd, we could send them Freese as part of the deal.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Keep in mind he's 32 years old
He’ll be 37 when the contract expires.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I know
they have to eat A LOT of salary ;)
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 11, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they did it with ARod, so they might do it again
but if he wont play 2nd & they asked for way to much & don’t pick up any of his salary, i say no thanks.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 11, 2009 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well . . .
he DID come up as a 2B, so that’s not totally unreasonable.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 12, 2009 1:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why not move K-Bot to 2B
And keep Young at SS….?
I’m thinking if he didn’t want to play at 3B there would be little chance he would want to play at 2B. He probably wants to stay in the exact position he’s in now. I mean he did just win a GG, so I think he deserves a little recognition for his ability there. (And no. A Gold Glove is not the say all and end all measure of defensive capability, I know)
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 12, 2009 8:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
Young is a bad SS and Greene is a good one. You’d be puting the two guys at their worst spot, not their best. It would be like having Grady Sizemore (11.5 uzr/150), then acquiring Nate McLouth (-15.1) and moving Sizemore to left so McLouth could play CF.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 13, 2009 8:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree now
I made the earlier comment w/o looking up Young’s sabermetrics…I just went off of what I already knew about him. Even though I made this statement, I don’t want us to get Young. Our priority 1 is starting pitching. Our MIF will be fine w/ Khalil and AK, I was just tossing a random thought out there.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 13, 2009 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd agree wholeheartedly
As nice as it would be to improve the bats, the starting rotation is a big house of Cards. (I like what I did there…self-+1)
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 13, 2009 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha!
I’ll add my own +1
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 13, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sounds like a good fit.
freese would make sense to fill the hole at 3b.
by tom s. on Jan 11, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
though i think the Red Sox would be the obvious target for this one.
They’ve got the money, the gap at SS, and they’re desperate to improve the offense w/ Manny gone. They could also move Young around in later years to a corner spot to take care of the age issue.
by tom s. on Jan 11, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's true
Jed Lowrie is good, but he could stand to use more time in the minors. They will probably trade from their surplus in the pitching department, which is probably something the Texans could use.
by Taskmaster on Jan 11, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Texans need a linebacker.
A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!
by Tackle Box on Jan 11, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he doesn't need 5 more years in the minors
the Red Sox are a smart team and put a premium on defense. Young is one of the most undeserving GG winners in a long time and is a crummy defender. His bat is declining and that contract is just plain awful.
Young is a horrible trade waiting to happen.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 11, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
here's the Dallas Morning News story
it leads us to believe he’s known about the move for a while now & was never happy about it. so if he doesn’t want to play 3rd & wants to stay at SS, i really can’t see anyone willing to take on his salary. even a big market club like the sawx.
does anyone know anything about the kid the Rangers want to give a shot at the starting job? is he any good? according to that article he had 32 errors last season at AA. is he really an upgrade over Young? or is something else going on like they are trying to dump his salary and/or get the highest value for him now that he won a GG?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 12, 2009 12:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His Contract
has 5 years, $62 million left. not too bad…
"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean
by Molina4MVP on Jan 12, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He has 5Y$80M left on his deal
Also includes limited no trade protection until 2011, when his 10/5 rights would kick in, but they wouldn’t kick if he was traded, so you’d probably be able to move him in his 2012 season assuming that any team would take him at that point.
He’s due $16M annually over the life of the deal with $15M being deferred. If Texas would pick up the deferred $15M and another $10M over the life of the deal, then I might consider it since he’d effectively be making $11M per season then instead of $16M. It would also make him much easier to trade after the 2011 season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 12, 2009 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why couldn't the Rangers just make it easy on us
and have a conflict with Ian Kinsler that causes them to want to trade him? They’re shopping the wrong middle infielder!!!!!!!!!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 12, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I was mislead by MLBTradeRumors
Tim wrote that he “is owed $62MM over the next five seasons (some of it deferred) and controls his fate with his full no-trade clause.” (and he had a link for his contract at: http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/story/1136636.html )
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/evaluating-mich.html
"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean
by Molina4MVP on Jan 12, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
=santa's cost per year
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jan 12, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Career wOBA: .343
Career 2B UZR/150: -3.3
Career SS UZR/150: -12.0
by astrostl on Jan 12, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone think Ray Durham might be a fit?
He’s right handed so he could platoon with Kennedy, he still had some speed and on base skills, and he’ll be super cheap…
Thoughts?
www.salukihoops.com
by salukihoops on Jan 12, 2009 10:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yep
he was his usual 3 WAR after a down season, but how old is he now?
If no one is calling for O Hudson, I imagine Durham would come quite cheaply. He’s probably more of a reserve now, but then again so are our other options.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 12, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs