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Enough with the lying already...

Star-divide

I have got to say that I have had it up to my freaking eyebrows with DeWitt and the organization as a whole. I couldn't even get to the end of the article in the post today because it made me so freaking mad.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/263E0E19814836F386257537000905AE?OpenDocument

After promising an "aggressive" Off-season, Mo has thrown in the towel and sounds like he is finished. Our aggressive off-season was highlighted by acquiring a SS who has a career OBP of .304. There is also the lefty who might very well have a torn shoulder and don't forget our recent signing of Royce Ring who posed a robust ERA of 8.46 last year.

In the past weeks Mo has sited the pay raises for Ludwick, Ankiel, Welly, Duncan, and Thompson as reasons that we have not been more aggressive while DeWitt has gone so far to say that the constant criticism that he receives is unfair. DeWitt is just being a greedy ass. This is not the first time he has promised an aggressive off-season and its not the first off-season where we have all been disappointed. Oh, but we have to remember that DeWitt had to privately finance the new stadium. Boo freaking hoo DeWitt. I can't even imagine how much money you made by selling a pair of old Busch seats for $500 a pop let alone everything else that was auctioned off (urinals included). Then there is the fact that fans like me have continued to fill your costly new stadium (which by the way Bill... is making you a HELL of a lot more more per game with all your fancy suites) to the tune of 3.5 million every year as DeWitt raised prices WHILE KEEPING PAYROLL STATIC! So in a failing economy we are asked to continue to support our beloved Cardinals while DeWitt sucks every last penny he can out of this once proud franchise.

Oh sure we kicked the tires on Peavy, nearly acquired Holliday... but in the end... I wonder if both of those were just for show so at the end of the day at least Mo could say that we tried really really hard. I have been a loyal Cardinals fan for over 20 years and have been a regular at Busch over that span. But I can tell you one thing... that if I see another 4th place team this year followed by more lies, high ticket prices, and more "low hanging fruit" DeWallet is going to loose my season ticket revenue.

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While I think you may be a bit too emotional about it

I’m very intrigued by this latest round of ‘we don’t have any money’ claims Mo is making. He says that there is less money than what people perceive there to be because we didn’t take into account raises.

Firstly, most of us on this site have taken into account raises in payroll matrix done. Secondly, if Rick Ankiel and/or Chris Duncan are getting THAT big of a raise, TRADE THEM (or release them in Duncan’s case). When you’ve got a cheaper alternative in both Colby Rasmus and Joe Mather already in the organization, dump the more costly players and then guess what…you have more money.

The Cardinals should have $15 M left to spend, even with the mythical raises all these players are getting. That should be more than enough to sign a starter. Think about how much more money they’d have if they hadn’t given Kyle Lohse a 4 year/$41 M deal!

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 7, 2009 2:24 PM EST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I am hopeful that he is addressing those comments to the more casual fan

who just look at the salaries that went off the books and think that is the available pool. Judging by some of the comments on the P-D board, it is probably impossible to underestimate the awareness of most people.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 7, 2009 2:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm also interested in where the extra $10 M

every year DeWitt promises for ‘the right player’ is going? So if we tried to sign Ben Sheets to a contract, we’d have an extra $25 M to spend (minus Sheets)?

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 7, 2009 2:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True dat.

It is amazing to see the numbers of loudmouths on the P-D board that have said just exactly what Mozeliak is repeating in the article. They make the case constantly that because of Encarnacion and Mulder and Isringhausen and blah blah blah, that they should be signing Burnett and Manny and trading for Peavy and blah blah blah.

That said, I still think they are going to do something; but I think we’ll probably have to wait until after Spring Training gets under way. I think they would like to drum up a better market for some of the OFs.

by etp_stl on Jan 7, 2009 2:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes

the thing I’m the most perturbed about is the outfield situation, we need to trade at least one player, and of course release Duncan… that would be in the ballclub’s best interest, but perhaps not the Duncan family’s best interest

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 7, 2009 2:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you're joking, right?

What in the wide world of sports makes you think we ought to release Duncan? If he is healthy he is an excellent trade piece, if not, then release him, but no sense in releasing our, potentially, 4th best offensive player before we know if he has recovered or not.

by abothecardinal on Jan 7, 2009 3:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I disagree

4th best offensive player? that’s sort of a stretch

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 7, 2009 3:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not really

If you assume his last stretch was injury related, the years worth of stats before it was 2nd only to Pujols. Now we have Glaus, and Ludwick, which may push him down to fourth. I’m not saying he will be the 4th best, but based on his production before his injuries he has the potential to be as high as 2nd.

Do I think he will return to that form? Not really, but if he is fully recovered then there isn’t a whole lot of reason to think he won’t.

by abothecardinal on Jan 7, 2009 3:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They probably will be, but if Duncan nets us a B prospect pitcher from some org would he be worth holding until ST? Damn right.

Now, there’s no telling if he would, but a healthy Duncan has value. If he’s not healthy, then hopefully he’s not in the roster equation, which kinda helps your hitch when it comes to the glut, right?

I mean, in a way it’s a win win based on your concerns.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 7, 2009 3:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good point

Healthy Duncan – we win. Either we trade him for something useful or he mashes for us.

Unhealthy Duncan – we win in a losing kind of way. We have much less of on OF glut problem to deal with.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 7, 2009 5:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Dunc is a problem

I’ve always liked watching the guy but even at his best he had very little trade value. Just proving that he’s healthy in the spring won’t increase that and he’s taking up a roster spot and costing us money. It would be nice to make him a throw in on a deal but if it can’t be done I don’t think it’s outrageous to consider releasing him.

by easy on Jan 7, 2009 6:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Teams are always looking for a Duncan type player, last year it was the A’s (before Frank) and the Blue Jays (after frank) early on. He’ll have 38 games in ST where I’m sure he’ll be put to the test.

Nothing says he’ll even be back (which means release coming), but if he is and can show to hit, there’s value within that package, in my opinion.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 7, 2009 9:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i know

Nats want a 1B to replace nick johnson cuz of injuries (but they may not want to go with duncan and his injuries, but the low-risk, high upside with duncan being healthy is a plus) and Angels need a 1B

Cardwash - Cardinal, Washington fan (Washington???? Yeah, I know)

by cardwash on Jan 12, 2009 3:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i wish everyone would get off the duncan train

nothing about him says he is anything better than a 4th outfielder to me

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 7, 2009 4:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I disagree with your opinion.

If he shows evidence in Spring Training that the injuries were truly what was holding him back offensively, then what he is is a terrific bargaining chip. His offense prior to injury would be more than enough to have him as a starting 1B or DH for many AL teams. There are other teams that would be more than willing to put him in LF, despite his lackluster defense. I don’t see Duncan as a long term fit in St. Louis. I never did. I just don’t see any purpose in an outright release until after 2-3 weeks of Spring Training have given him an opportunity to show what he can do.

by etp_stl on Jan 7, 2009 4:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Based on what?

Do you have anything to back that up? You are telling me that if he returns to hitting at an OPS of greater than .900 (i.e. his 2006, 1st half 2007 numbers) that that will only result in a AAAA player? There are many sub-par defensive players hidden at 1B, LF, and DH in the league. I don’t see any logic behind your statement. You will have to prove this to me.

by etp_stl on Jan 7, 2009 7:11 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was speaking hypothetically, but ...

that sample size is also the only stretch he’s had when not injured. I also consider a year and a half to be long enough for pitchers to adjust several times. He still hit extremely well until the injuries began to pile up.

by etp_stl on Jan 8, 2009 12:40 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

he’s probably about as good a hitter as Mather or Ank, but his defense and baserunning tend to worry me, a lot.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2009 1:09 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was also talking about trade bait.

I’m not sure I would agree with you on the baserunning, though. Drew was a lot worse on the basebaths. I just think Duncan is aggressive on basepaths. He probably picked that up from Pujols. Otherwise, I just think he makes young-player mistakes on the base.

His defense isn’t an issue for a team that puts him at 1B (where he is more comfortable) or DH.

by etp_stl on Jan 8, 2009 8:16 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

same for ank

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 9, 2009 8:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't agree with your take on Duncan......

Just looking at Carrer OPS numbers in the OF……

Luddy .857
Rick .843
Dunc .840
Mather .780
Barton .746
Skip .754

Why is Duncan a 4th outfielder? If you want to bring defense into the equation and platooning splits maybe, just maybe. However if you think Dunc sucks then Mather, Skip, and Barton suck and are just 4th OF too.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 7, 2009 5:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Releasing him is not a wise business or baseball decision

If healthy, he has value to the club.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 7, 2009 5:33 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is a wise move

if they are strapped for cash as they are pretending they are. Whatever he gets in arbitration raises, which seems to be what is concerning Mo takes away from other places we need to spend it.

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 7, 2009 8:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

think about his ’07 and ’08, how much arb is he really going to get anyways?

Welly, Ank and Luddy are the main arb concerns

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 7, 2009 9:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah I think "pretend" is the operative word.........

If paying lil Dunc is an issue, the Cardinals might as well trade Albert Pujols right now becaue there is no way in hell they will be able to extend him…….

I am sorry $500,000 – $1,500,000 is not a lot of $$ and saving that will not magically create some sort of great amount of $$

by ICbirdfan on Jan 7, 2009 9:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Say Duncan makes $750,000 in arbitration

That won’t make or break us on any acquisition. His value as a trade component or as a producer on offense for that price is of a far higher value than whatever de minimus payroll flexibility resulting from such a move.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 8, 2009 2:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's just ridiculous.

if the cards have $450K to throw at Royce Ring, then they have $600K-$700K to throw at CDunc, who could probably supplant Ring by walking in from LF to pitch to lefties with similar effect.

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2009 2:04 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and barton is a 4th outfielder

mather we don’t know about yet due to lack of PA’s

skip had a break out year….if he stays in that range, he is a legit leadoff type…if not then he is a fourth outfielder as well….thing is barton, mather, and skip all play much better defense than duncan….so yea, duncan is a fourth outfielder

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 7, 2009 7:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

First

we have to see if Duncan really can get healthy considering he was reported to be the first professional athlete in the world to have this particular surgery. For him to have any value to other clubs he will have to demonstrate both recovery and durability. If he can play a whole season and he can hit like he did in 2006 plus the first half of 2007 then why would we trade him unless we got a boatload in return? If he fails either the production test or the durability test then he is just a distraction with very little value.

If you believe at all in the predictive value of minor league experience then it would be a pretty safe bet that Mather will hit better. His MLE based on his 2008 season is .258/.359/.498/.857. Both his OBP and ISO have both improved as he has progressed to higher levels. His minor league track record seems to indicate he would have better power than Duncan which would be stunning. His defense is clearly better although Duncan was mostly better in 2008 than in previous years.

I am not in favor of giving Skip much more opportunity to see if he can hit LHPs. If he was younger AND he was an elite defensive CF AND he was faster (hmmm, who does that sound like?) it might be worth giving him the opportunity to improve on his putrid split of .168/.238/.185/.423. He will be 29 and he certainly isn’t getting any younger, likely won’t get any faster and I would have a hard time projecting elite defensive skills in CF due to his lack of speed. So he is a 4th OF since he can’t play everyday and is sub-par offensively in LF.

Barton looks like he can do pretty much everything Skip can do except throw, is two years younger, bats right handed and is probably the fastest player to potentially be on the roster. He had a .372 OBP as a pinch hitter and a .362 OBP as a lead-off hitter. 4th/5th OF as his offense isn’t good enough to be a corner OF. The only reason I would like to have him on the roster is he is the only RH OF besides Mather. I don’t even want to consider Stavinoha.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 7, 2009 8:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

good post

I’m pretty sure Barton will be in AAA for most of ’09, eh?

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 7, 2009 10:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well

maybe if he cuts off his dreads and starts wearing a mullet TLR will like him better.

Really curious who would bat leadoff vs. LHPs. If it is Skip then TLR has definitely gone to seed.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 8, 2009 4:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would say a DH

he is below average as a 1B as well.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 8, 2009 4:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is there something that backs that up?

I hate calling someone out for not providing statistical proof, but the only reason I ask is because as a former first baseman and current high school baseball coach, I felt he played a very adequate first base last year. Adam Kennedy was atrocious and I think Glaus played a game or two at first but his performance slips my mind.

Frankly, I was relieved when Duncan finally started at first when Pujols was hurt.

Honestly, I was surprised to look it up and see he started 12 games at first which is a lot more than I thought it was. I guess those couple of games started by Kennedy were so damn bad, they were burned into my memory.

A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!

by Tackle Box on Jan 8, 2009 10:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2722&position=OF#fielding

He’s a career negative at LF, RF, and 1B but per UZR he seems confirmed to be not nearly as poor a defender as many Cardinal fans think. I chalk it up to defensive spoilage; I think watching Raul Ibanez, Manny, Burrell, Dunn, etc lumber around the outfield would be good for fan perspective!

by astrostl on Jan 8, 2009 11:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

-4.8 UZR/150 in limited MLB time

at 1B, made 19 errors at 1B in 117 games in A ball, 14 errors in 116 games in the FSL, and 17 errors in 104 games at Memphis. Don’t have anything too sophisticated on his MiLB time and only vague recollections from various articles and interviews, but he has never been considered even an average defensive player.

For reference, Ryan Howard with 19 errors in 159 games and Prince Fielder with 17 errors in 155 games led the MLB. His UZR/150, which is of course based on a very small sample is very similar to Miguel Cabrera and Justin Morneau, neither of whom would be mistaken for good first basemen.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 9, 2009 6:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We’re in the utopia of stuck when it comes to the OF for the time being. Duncan and Ank have questionable value considering injuries and recovery. ST is what will help that value. Which means wait.

Mather should field an organizational need as he’ll be able to spot start in 5 positions and provide an above average bat off the bench.

Skip may be considered an organizational need if the org doesn’t trust anyone to have a high OBP in the lead off role.

Barton wouldn’t slip out unnoticed, but don’t expect someone finding a hurdle to jump to grab him.

Spring Training will help show health and a potential move. It’s in the best interest for Duncan and for the club to take him into ST and allow others to see if he can perform.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 7, 2009 3:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if we're hurting for money

we could release 2 outfielders and probably not suffer much consequence

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 7, 2009 3:46 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

except what we could get in return

via production or asset.

What happens if Duncan, Ank or Barton explodes in ST this year? Think their value would go up? Of course. Could it reopen past trade talks Mo tried getting going? Possible.

Even with arb the guys in question will be cheap compared to potential production, you just don’t release that.

The article in the OP that references money isn’t talking about how we’re hurting, it’s just showing where money is going, and it isn’t simply money leaving the books.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 7, 2009 3:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the truth

The cards belong to the fans ad infinitum, but different people have the responsibility of running the franchise from time to time. If they don’t run it as the "true’ fans want, then they should expect some commentary. The present group has no history of success in the avowed new direction, which makes folks a bit more anxious than usual. The lack of activity, regardless of cause, at the trade deadline last year was the beginning of making the natives restless. The fact is they have addressed their needs in a minimally creative and effective way. I guess they can’t tell the truth, i.e., Carp costs so much that he either pitches or we are also rans because we don’t have enough money to compensate for his loss unless prices come way down. Hence, we wait and hope for the best.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 10, 2009 12:02 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think people confuse "being aggresive"

 with “stupidly spending money” and/or “having the roster finished by Christmas”

We went into the offseason with 4 goals

1.) Improve the leftside of the bullpen
2.) Improve the Middle Infield
3.) Sign a starter (or two)
4.) Find a closer

1.) We have so far signed 3 potental Loogys. Sure they aren’t named brand loogys. But who uses a name brand loogy? Let them fight it out in spring training and keep the best one. If he fails you have more the other two standing by. There is a good chance that they will be better than Randy “Walk the basesloaded” Flores and Ron Villone.

2.) Improve the middle infield. Yes I know Green only has an OBP of .304. He also has a OPS+ of 94. Which is a huge improvement of Izturis’ 67 OPS+. This also raised that payroll number everyone is so worried about.

   To improve depth they signed Joe Thurston. Who is by no means the future at 2nd base but should be close to Major League ready and will at least provided insure if Kennedy turns into 07 Kennedy.

3.) Sign a starter. (or two) Hello Kyle Lohse. You remember him. Pitched well for us last year. Signed him to a 4 year deal worth over 40 million. I dont like the deal. I think we overpaid. I too would like us to sign another starter. But to say we are being cheap here isn’t quite fair. To me this falls under “stupidly spending money.” I hope Lohse proves me wrong.

4.) I’m kinda glad we didn’t sign Fuentes. I think Perez and or Motte can do the job. But they have said they wanted one. And have been unable to get one. So I guess you can complain about that if you really want to.

by Evilfrog on Jan 7, 2009 3:26 PM EST reply reply actions actions   2 recs

Well put

We’ve decided to incorporate the “hock LOOGY’s at the ’pen and see who sticks” approach, which has been relatively successful in the past with TLR bullpens. His mixing and matching in the late innings often leverages the maximum upside out of relievers. Ring is a high upside player. And, if he doesn’t work out, we can ship to Memphis at minimum cost. I’d rather make low cost manueverings for LOOGYs than throw $5M at one who is marginally better. However, I’d still love an Ohman-type (actually, Ohman himself).

Wonderful point on Greene. While his OBP is horrendous, he is essentially Izturis with pop, bringing us more of an offensive threat from SS.

The Lohse signing was horrible. Far, far worse than the much maligned El Pineiro signing last offseason. Had we been smarter, we could have signed a much better starter for only a few million more than Lohse and then re-signed Lohse for three years, $27M. In fact, our lone aggressive move is what I consider the worst roster move of Mo’s tenure as GM.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 7, 2009 4:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 9, 2009 8:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

caveat

i would have included the caveat of “trading an outfielder and 3B” in those goals. imo we needed to address one of those goals through trade. i don’t know if i am too interested in signing any potential FA’s out there besides sheets or kawakami.

however, the surplus that we have at OF and 3B is going to create a problem and the opportunity cost we are losing there is the real problem.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Jan 7, 2009 4:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good point

It’d be nice to clear the OF log jam and improve an area of weakness.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 7, 2009 4:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True.

I would like to seem them move an outfielder. Just glad it wasn’t Ludwick for Holliday

by Evilfrog on Jan 7, 2009 5:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think that was one of the "Goals" of the offseason.

They have a surplus, which is good. But that doesn’t mean we have to get rid of one of them.

Also, there have been rumors and reports of talks about the Cardinals sending either Ludwick or Ankiel to the Braves or Yankees. None of it happened, but it takes two to tango (I’m talking about the Braves here). Just because the two sides couldn’t match up on the pieces (or the timing is wrong) doesn’t mean they aren’t being aggressive.

The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.

by Tackle Box on Jan 7, 2009 7:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well put.

Just because you’re aggressive doesn’t mean you’re going to get everyone you target.

For your sanity, you get a “rec”.

The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.

by Tackle Box on Jan 7, 2009 7:11 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Overemotional much?

It’s Jan 8th! Not April 8th.

If the Cubs regress as a whole (which I think they will considering the trades they have made; regressing of player like Soto, Dempster; health risks in Harden, Z) who else do we have to really worry about?

Houston is pulling in, the Reds don’t look like they’ve gained much, Brewers have lost quite a bit and the Pirates are too far out.

86 wins last season, additions via subtraction (Izzy, Villone, Flores), depth in relief LHRP, a SS who knows what a bat is.

On just those notes alone we’ve improved, nothing says we’re done yet.

There’s a lesson in all of this – if you don’t like the product, don’t spend.

I’ll continue to go to games because this team was a blast last year, even if frustrating. We’re on the back end of a transition to a younger/build from within approach. We’re a year away from having some nice talent start to bubble up. (Wallace, Todd, Garcia, Salas, Boggs), we went from little to no depth to considerable depth at two traditionally expensive positions (OF, 3B).

Pissing and moaning through the hard times doesn’t get anyone anywhere in my opinion. Hell, I’m saying hard times based off a 86 win season, I feel sorry for the team across the state.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 7, 2009 3:34 PM EST reply reply actions actions   3 recs

This goes on my "Wish List"

Since you put it so well, I won’t rehash it and just say “Enough with (what AdjustedExpectations said)”.

The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.

by Tackle Box on Jan 7, 2009 7:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have no problems... so far.

Everything in that article makes sense to me. If I was a GM I’d probably be holding back too. The market is tanking by the day, Giambi and Burrell signed for pennies. There are tons of FA left. The economic uncertainty could be said to be an excuse, but MLB teams have got to be loving this perfect storm of a FA market collapse. More teams have younger options, more teams rely more on the draft, no one except the yankees is tossing out big money, and the owners have a legitimate excuse (with the bad global economy) to hold back and wait for bargains. Plus, when you consider all that going on, the trade culture is shifting to and GMs are feeling out what that market is going to settle on. In some ways it must be a great time to be a GM, but also difficult because of trying to judge when the best time to pull the trigger is.

Case in point, on the Mo poll several people panned the Lohse deal because it was too long and too much. I remember their being some criticism at the time of the signing, but the criticism has escalated (unfairly) as the market has changed (just in 4 months). many of the deals signed in the last month could face the same scrutiny a few months down the line as the market continues to be unstable. The Ibanez deal looks ridiculous just weeks later (when it looked just bad at the time). The KRod deal looked like a steal at the time, but even that is starting to look like too much. The Mets seriously low-balled Lowe, The METS! So I have no problems with the wait and see approach. I like it. It is a refreshing change of pace.

Furthermore, I didn’t read Mo’s remarks about arbitration raises as being an excuse about not being aggressive. It seems to me he was just clarifying mistaken perceptions about how much money they were dealing with.

Frankly, I am tired of the accusations of “greed” toward the owners and insinuations about how they are trying to deceive the fans with posturing and false efforts. There is no evidence of this. What they do mathces what they say – they have an idea of value and they stick to it, regardless of what the fans think of what other teams foolishly do. If you don’t like that strategy that is one thing, but to assume it is a lie is quite another.

All that being said, I wouldn’t mind a push for Cabrera for 2B.

by abothecardinal on Jan 7, 2009 3:48 PM EST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

it's not just that

the cards front office/ownership’s view of the financial situation wasn’t too insightful. it’s not that lohse’s deal was too much then, but that only now is management saying it is effectively handicapping us from even a 10m dollar pitcher (uncle andy for a year) because of the economy/attendance. lohse closed after lehman folded. hello?

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 9, 2009 8:53 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think its just frustration boiling over

Remember, a lot of Cardinals fans have been waiting not just this off-season, but indeed since last season’s trade deadline for the Cards to make a significant move. I can sympathize with this kind of frustration. After all, I’ve read thousands of posts on this site dating back to last season about exciting potential deals, only to see them fall through or attract no interest from the FO. At some point, its only human nature to want something new and exciting to talk about (and I mean more exciting than Lohse, Greene, Ringer et al). I also feel that some Cardinals fans believe the FO conceded the division to Cubs/MIL last year when they chose not to make a move following the Sabathia and Harden trades. My suspicion is that a lot of Cardinals fans are getting the feeling this season will be the same—that we’ve conceded the division to the Cubs for all intents and purposes and are playing for—at best—the wildcard (Which, if we don’t add a solid starter is pretty much what I think we’ve done in effect, barring some Cubbie injuries of course). Now, people here can certainly be justified in asserting that the FO played it smart last year at the deadline and still have time to make a move this year; But these frustrations are very real in some fans’ minds and for all we know right now, might end up having a grain of a grain of truth to them.

by mattyp on Jan 7, 2009 4:26 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While you make good points in your post,

I think that it’s too early to attack the orgaization for their lack of activity this offseason. Here are a few points to be considered:

1) The Cardinals peaked at 14 games over .500 numerous times last season but were never able to overcome that mark. From July 20 to the end of the season, the Cards were 2 games under.
2) There were no moves made at the trade deadline. The Cardinals were 1 game over .500 after the trade deadline, and 11 games over before it.
3) Lots of payroll freed up this offseason. There is now money to pay some new players to help fix last year’s holes. The moves thus far include acquiring a potential MIF threat who is coming off of a career worst year, a 4/41 deal to what is by most accounts a league average pitcher, a potentially injured LOOGY, and various low hanging fruit type players. Arguably one of the Cards’ best relievers was not offered arbitration, along with last year’s 4th best starter. The club’s ace is still a question mark. That leaves the club minus a startng pitcher.
5) Several players on the team are arbitration eligible, which will eat up some salary. Some players are also due raises.
6) The economy is bad (duh). Contracts aren’t coming as fast as usual, so there are still a few big name free agents on the market.
7) It’s January 7th. There is plenty of time left for the Cardinals to sign Ben Sheets Derek Lowe some new players.

The first few points were intended just to reiterate the fact the the Cardinals should by no means be done this offseason. If they don’t sign or trade for someone else by the time the season starts, I’m going to be very unhappy. Too many players on the team are due to regress (especially in the rotation) to try to get by without spending any more money. However, I will wait before offering any final judgements on the organization’s performance.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 7, 2009 5:27 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

id love to see us make an effort

and sign a sheets or Lowe, but we all know its not going to happen.

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Jan 7, 2009 6:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well poo

I thought that the fanposts(ers) on here were too good to use the terms “low hanging fruit” and “DeWallet”. Being frustrated is one thing, hell, so is being negative. Is it too much to ask for originality when doing it though? Those kind of terms right there are enough to make me wanna break Bernie’s fingers. I really wish he would get back to being the quality columnist I remember from my youth.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 7, 2009 7:35 PM EST reply reply actions actions   3 recs

We could call him

Count Demonet Dewitt. “Count De Money!” “Count De Money!!!”

Chuck Norris bows to no man...but he does bow to The Mang.

by miniboscorino on Jan 7, 2009 7:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

That's Hedly!

Oh, wait. Right actor. Wrong Mel Brooks.

by etp_stl on Jan 7, 2009 7:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"You look like the piss boy!!"

“And you look like a bucket of shit!”

Chuck Norris bows to no man...but he does bow to The Mang.

by miniboscorino on Jan 7, 2009 7:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

I stop reading whenever i see “DeWallet” and move to the next post. I don’t have the energy anymore to read standard cheap FO rants.

by viktor on Jan 7, 2009 7:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bernie has been awful lately

I don’t know if covering the Rams this season caused him to blow a gasket or what, but his Cardinals coverage is bush league.

I seriously wonder if he is power mad from all radio call ins and blog posters getting riled up at his anti-front office garbage and has lost his sense of objectivity. Every article is littered with double talk and inflammatory rhetoric (masked, as good bad writers will do, with escape hatches and avenues for back peddling and excuses). Most of the stuff he criticizes or recommends he will end up criticizing from the other angle in a different column. In one article he’ll bellow about not signing a guy like Brad Penny and in another he will criticize the FO for keying in on guys like Brad Penny. Anything to get the masses to raise their pitchforks behind him

I used to listen to his radio show but now its almost as bad as Slaten’s.

by abothecardinal on Jan 8, 2009 1:39 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well

we know that there’s at least 9M in the budget (Fuentes bid) so if that isn’t spent by ST, I’ll be disgruntled.

by azruavatar on Jan 7, 2009 9:37 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And that's the point

additionally: “What the hell is wrong with Ben Sheets”

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 7, 2009 9:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is what's wrong with Ben Sheets

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/all-about-ben-sheets/

Other than that, he’s a fine outstanding pitcher.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jan 7, 2009 9:53 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That was a fun read.

Thanks for the link. Now I guess we know why there is concern over his latest shoulder joint injury.

by etp_stl on Jan 7, 2009 10:13 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm less

inclined to support a Ben Sheets signing now. He could end up another Carp. Awesome when he’s healthy, but when is he healthy?

by spants on Jan 7, 2009 10:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if they just sign him for one year

it isn’t worth the loss of the first round draft pick. At the very least it has to be a one year deal with a team option

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 7, 2009 11:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why not?

If he pitches well, they’ll get that 1st round pick back the very next year and he’ll likely be worth more to other teams.

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 7, 2009 11:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a first rounder plus a sandwich, might I add

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 8, 2009 12:45 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I do not know why that didn't register in my brain

I have been a big fan of Sheets for what seems like forever, so if a one year deal will get it done, let’s hope they get it done

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 8, 2009 5:33 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think it is time for a sequel to

lboros Q & A’s with Luhnow. Time to get him or Mo back to answer some questions.

I would be happy if it was one question, and that one question was a hybrid of those two comments directly above this reply.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 7, 2009 9:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that would be amazing, especially with the guys like chuckb, danup, azru et all.

Id also like to read another “lil’ Mo” right about now.

It would lighten the mood, and he could talk about all us nuts posters plus budget constraints ect

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Jan 7, 2009 11:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

9 million, im going to buy you SO MANY lizzards

is SO many hurt RPs and utility IFs ;-)

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Jan 7, 2009 11:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

crap

that was supposed to be a reply

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Jan 7, 2009 11:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was.

The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.

by Tackle Box on Jan 7, 2009 11:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

These posts amaze me

The angst among Cardinals fans is unreal. The team has maintained a very high level of performance, and also has one of the league’s highest payrolls. You are basically complaining over how they use the last 5% of their available budget (invest in current players vs. picking up free agents).

Lets all keep some perspective and hold fast, ok?

by JWO on Jan 8, 2009 4:43 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed, but with a major caveat

My concern is not so much how we spend the remaining budget this year as I am pretty confident MO will make effective use of the available funds. I am concerned about our ability to keep pace with larger market teams in terms of payroll.

Ever since the current ownership took over we have been in the top half of the division in payroll every year and the top ten in MLB most years. The Cubs have outspent us the last three years and the gap is getting wider. I know they have issues both in the present and in the future, but it looks more likely we will be playing for the wild card for a while. That puts us mostly in competition with east coast large market teams like NY, PHA, and ATL. The Giants are talking about having a $100M payroll. I know large payrolls don’t guarantee success (just ask the Dodgers and Mets), but we can’t count on the NL large market teams to be poorly run forever.

I sure hope the owners can find a way to stay competitive, because once we have to pay Albert about twice what he is currently making it will be awfully difficult to put up a good team with anywhere near the payroll limits we currently live with.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 8, 2009 5:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think it’s about presumed income compared to spending, not just spending.

by astrostl on Jan 8, 2009 5:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

part of the angst

is that fans are like tlr, win now! current team is unlikely to win the central and will find wildcard sledding difficult. the season is long and it’s hard to enter with no/little hope. my suggestion beyond the improbability of a reasonable return for an outfielder is to try to sign uncle andy p. i’d have preferred uncle randy j, but next best for us is a short term deal with andy, as in 1 with option kind of deal that could net him 20m over the term. sheets, i’m afraid, is a pipedream.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 9, 2009 9:02 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

86 wins...

… and plenty went wrong last year: Izzy went off the reservation, Carp never made it back, Mulder never made it back, Clement never made it back, and half the position players suffered significant injuries.

sure Luddy may regress some, but Ankiel, Glaus, and several pitchers will likely improve to cover the gap. then there’s Greene, the possible return of Dunc, plus Mather and Raz waiting in the wings if somebody stumbles.

with a decent bit of health, and some blessings from GOB, this team is already a contender. i’m not say i don’t watch to see more improvements, but this tar-and-feather campaign just has to stop. it’s crazy.

by kindred on Jan 9, 2009 10:25 PM EST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

This is only going to get worse, though.

Mozeliak sounds like he is going to wait until Spring Training to do any more. He needs to find out what he has in the OF and in Carpenter. He can’t find that out until they take the field.

The unrest will probably continue and amplify with every signing between now and then. For crying out loud, look at the outcry over Smoltz. It will only get worse when Beimel and Ohman sign somewhere else. It will be a full-time job guarding the bridges over the Missouri and Mississippi rivers.

by etp_stl on Jan 10, 2009 11:23 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah

I know that I’m not going to be happy when Sheets, Lowe, and Kawakami sign short/cheap deals with other teams when we paid 4/41 for Lohse.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 10, 2009 2:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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