My Hall of Fame Ballot
So I was talking it over with the BBWAA, the other day—we keep in touch—and if I'm reading this restraining order correctly it seems I've been denied a Hall of Fame ballot for the fifth year in a row. It's alright: I've been jilted before. No need to launch protests on my behalf, unless you'd really like to, or you are—or are someone close to—Rickey Henderson, Tim Raines, Bert Blyleven, Tommy John, Mark McGwire, or Alan Trammell. I can fend for myself. But look at the note someone's attached:
Dear Mr. Up,
You write about one team on a blog that often employs fictional characters and framing devices, which does not currently fit the criteria necessary for BBWAA membership. And if we were to count backward from our ten year eligibility requirement we would have to include the Chicago Bulls newsletter you wrote when you were eleven, with hand-drawn pictures of John Salley on it. We've already taken it up with the rules committee, and—as you're no doubt aware—they ruled 4-1 against.
Please stop contacting us. I've instructed the mailman to stop delivering letters written on Ray Lankford stationary.
Yours firmly,
The BBWAA
P.S. We appreciate the Ripper Collins anecdote. It was delightful!
Would you look at that! I don't think I need to spell it out for you, but I will: they've offered me a ballot, so long as I fill it with nobody but Cardinals. It's an expertise thing, and I understand. Since it's Monday, and we've talked more about Aaron Miles than anybody needs to, I've decided to reproduce here the ballot I'm just about to send (anonymously, as per the terms of the order) to the BBWAA.
Since things seemed a little restrictive as is, I decided to make the ballot available to all players, regardless of their eligibility or active status, who are no longer members of the Cardinals. I hope my contact inside will understand. I'm going in order of time spent away from St. Louis. That means we start with...
| Y | G | GS | IP | W | L | K | BB | HR | ERA |
| 1885 | 53 | 53 | 482.3 | 40 | 13 | 190 | 57 | 3 | 2.07 |
| 1886 | 44 | 43 | 387.3 | 30 | 14 | 166 | 86 | 3 | 2.32 |
| 1887 | 39 | 39 | 341 | 29 | 9 | 74 | 61 | 6 | 3.30 |
| 1888 | 44 | 43 | 391.7 | 29 | 15 | 140 | 53 | 4 | 2.39 |
| 1889 | 56 | 50 | 445 | 40 | 11 | 118 | 104 | 16 | 3.13 |
| 9 Years | 340 | 310 | 2828.7 | 218 | 99 | 900 | 597 | 59 | 2.83 |
"Parisian Bob", who earned his nickname from a bit of savvy trans-continental contract negotiation in 1885, played for Chris von der Ahe's American Association St. Louis Browns from 1884 to 1887, leading the proto-Cardinals to three straight pennants before the eccentric von der Ahe went bust and had to sell off his stars.
Of course, what do you do with these stats? Pitchers in his day threw from a pitcher's box fifty feet away from home plate and could basically take a running start. Teams had two starters—Caruthers platooned with "Scissors" Foutz, who was also sold to Brooklyn—and DIPS theory and everything else you've ever used to evaluate pitchers is more or less out the window in an era in which home runs were usually on balls in play and nobody struck out. Caruthers won a lot of games, had low ERAs, and was one of the four or five best pitchers in baseball for most of his career, which in this case means four years. Borderline Hall of Fame stuff, with such a short career, but any Parisian Bob fan knows there's a kicker due right about now:
| Y | G | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | AVG | OBP | SLG |
| 1885 | 60 | 222 | 50 | 10 | 2 | 1 | .225 | .289 | .302 |
| 1886 | 87 | 317 | 106 | 21 | 14 | 4 | .334 | .448 | .527 |
| 1887 | 98 | 364 | 130 | 23 | 11 | 8 | .357 | .463 | .527 |
| 1888 | 94 | 335 | 77 | 10 | 5 | 5 | .230 | .328 | .334 |
| 1889 | 59 | 172 | 43 | 8 | 3 | 2 | .250 | .408 | .366 |
| 9 Years | 705 | 2465 | 695 | 104 | 50 | 29 | .282 | .391 | .400 |
Yep: Caruthers is the forgotten two-way player. He led the league in wins in 1885, OPS in 1886. His career OPS+ is 133, his ERA+ 123. Nine years is a short career, but it would've been a lot longer if he'd split his duties up the Rick Ankiel way instead of doing things all at once. Put together, you have a guy who, at his brief peak, had an arguable case as both the best pitcher and the best hitter in the American Association. (And while his nickname is not as cool as "Scissors", it's still kind of cool.) A definite Yes.
| Y | G | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | AVG | OBP | SLG |
| 1975 | 157 | 581 | 193 | 32 | 3 | 18 | .332 | .396 | .491 |
| 1976 | 150 | 546 | 159 | 35 | 3 | 5 | .291 | .371 | .394 |
| 1977 | 150 | 516 | 164 | 25 | 3 | 21 | .318 | .408 | .500 |
| 1978 | 152 | 516 | 148 | 40 | 5 | 22 | .287 | .377 | .512 |
| 1979 | 123 | 448 | 127 | 22 | 0 | 26 | .283 | .369 | .507 |
| 21 Years | 2456 | 8680 | 2472 | 483 | 47 | 248 | .285 | .391 | .437 |
Famously kicked off the ballot in 1993, he might be the most concrete example, along with Fred McGriff and—gulp—Tim Raines, of a player who ruined his image by sticking around "too long." Simmons spending three years as Ozzie Virgil's backup on some awful Braves squads didn't make his peak any less impressive, but it pushed it three years further away from his first Hall of Fame ballot.
That's just about the only explanation I can come up with for how a player so well-regarded in his own time—an eight time all-star—can receive so little Hall of Fame attention, but Simmons was in a bad place anyway; he was a hitting catcher with a shaky defensive rep, and there really isn't any template for what that kind of player has to do to make the Hall of Fame. His numbers wouldn't merit induction if he were a corner outfielder, and for much of the Hall's history its voters have been basically unable to adjust its perceptions beyond that for offensive-minded players at other positions. Another Yes.
| Y | G | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | AVG | OBP | SLG |
| 1958 | 150 | 570 | 175 | 21 | 9 | 23 | .307 | .369 | .496 |
| 1959 | 149 | 563 | 174 | 18 | 5 | 28 | .309 | .384 | .508 |
| 1960 | 151 | 552 | 168 | 26 | 10 | 32 | .304 | .370 | .562 |
| 1961 | 153 | 589 | 194 | 26 | 11 | 24 | .329 | .397 | .533 |
| 1962 | 160 | 611 | 178 | 27 | 5 | 24 | .291 | .369 | .470 |
| 15 Years | 2034 | 7455 | 2143 | 318 | 68 | 282 | .287 | .349 | .462 |
| Y | G | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | AVG | OBP | SLG |
| 2000 | 128 | 483 | 144 | 32 | 6 | 26 | .298 | .370 | .551 |
| 2001 | 151 | 554 | 160 | 39 | 1 | 25 | .289 | .378 | .498 |
| 2002 | 155 | 580 | 154 | 29 | 8 | 31 | .266 | .357 | .503 |
| 2003 | 154 | 559 | 160 | 49 | 1 | 28 | .286 | .382 | .528 |
| 2004 | 142 | 500 | 157 | 32 | 4 | 34 | .314 | .409 | .598 |
| 13 Years | 1620 | 5906 | 1665 | 410 | 35 | 272 | .282 | .370 | .501 |
I had a lot of trouble with Ken Boyer. Basically, if he's a Hall of Fame third baseman, he's the line; his career isn't all that long, his peak isn't all that high, and his case is dependent on how highly you value his defense. I'm on the fence. Hopefully the BBWAA will send me another Secret Cardinals-Only Ballot next year, so that I'm able to keep pondering the question, but for now I've got to say No.
I put Scott Rolen here because I figured the Monday after New Years is a great time to make everybody sad. He has a higher peak than Boyer already, but his shoulder is going to be a big, crumbling question mark for the rest of his career. As the most astonishing defensive player I've personally witnessed, I always hoped he would continue gliding toward the Hall of Fame so that it would be easier to boast to my hypothetical children about watching him play. We could look at the plaque, on our hypothetical Cooperstown trip, and I could say: Yep. Arm like a cannon. He'd start diving before a ball was hit, and then he'd throw it to first base before he caught it. A hot corner robot, he was. But that's going to be a tough road now; barring a few more comeback years like 2006, he's going to hit the ballot on a Ted Simmons-y note.
| Y | G | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | AVG | OBP | SLG |
| 1996 | 130 | 423 | 132 | 21 | 0 | 52 | .312 | .467 | .730 |
| 1997 | 156 | 540 | 148 | 27 | 0 | 58 | .274 | .393 | .646 |
| 1998 | 15 5 | 509 | 152 | 21 | 0 | 70 | .299 | .470 | .752 |
| 1999 | 153 | 521 | 145 | 21 | 1 | 65 | .278 | .424 | .697 |
| 2000 | 89 | 236 | 72 | 8 | 0 | 32 | .305 | .483 | .746 |
| 16 Years | 1874 | 6187 | 1626 | 252 | 6 | 583 | .263 | .394 | .588 |
Yes. To pillory McGwire and the other nineties sluggers for something nobody cared about at the time is moving the goalposts a little too much for my taste. Lots of people used steroids, we'll never know who did and who didn't, and that's the way baseball was at the time. People seem to want to let the dust settle, or wait for things to clear up, but it's not going to get any clearer than it is now: Major League Baseball tacitly accepted steroid use from the late 80s to the early aughts. That we feel guilty about it now is no reason to whitewash the things that happened in that decade. I hate to use a football analogy, now or ever, but if you're going to throw the challenge flag you should do it before everybody's moved on to the next play.
In that context, McGwire hit home runs at an unimaginable pace. He made single at-bats into appointment TV. He put baseball back at the front of the sports page, where it belongs. It was a lot of fun.
| Y | G | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | AVG | OBP | SLG |
| 2000 | 152 | 525 | 155 | 25 | 0 | 42 | .295 | .411 | .583 |
| 2001 | 150 | 500 | 152 | 38 | 1 | 30 | .304 | .410 | .564 |
| 2002 | 144 | 476 | 148 | 31 | 2 | 28 | .311 | .420 | .561 |
| 2003 | 137 | 447 | 123 | 32 | 2 | 39 | .275 | .385 | .617 |
| 2004 | 153 | 498 | 150 | 38 | 3 | 42 | .301 | .418 | .643 |
| 16 Years | 1925 | 6612 | 1881 | 414 | 25 | 382 | .284 | .377 | .528 |
It's funny; when I started putting out my intermittent Jim Edmonds Hall of Fame apologia, I always had to deal with the specter of Andruw Jones, who was undoubtedly going to put up absurd counting stats on the back of his early start and overtake Edmonds, who at that point was beginning his swift decline from the incredible peak illustrated in the table. That seems kind of quaint, now that, to facilitate a trade, Jones and the Dodgers are arranging to have his salary paid out in the form of a lifetime subscription to the State Quarter of the Month club.
Anyway, a vote for Jim Edmonds is the ultimate vote for peak performance. He's played nine full-ish seasons, and they're all Hall of Fame caliber. Aside from that you've got two bad half-seasons in 1994 and 2007, a fragment in 1999, and two pretty good ones in 2006 and 2008. But the real case zooms in even further than that: for five years, his first five with the Cardinals, Jim Edmonds was one of the best center fielders ever. It's debatable whether or not he's a Hall of Famer on the whole, and it would help him to stumble over 400 home runs and 2000 hits before he hangs them up, but from 2000 to 2004 he was historically great. As I've been writing about since 2005: Yes.
So that's what I've got. I'd like to thank the BBWAA for giving me special voting privileges; these Cardinals for providing so many enjoyable moments over the years; and the Law Offices of Boyer, Boyer, and Boyer, for letting me know that I'll have the opportunity to appeal the BBWAA's order as soon as the Hall of Fame ceremonies are over.
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93 comments
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Comments
Jim Edmonds was wicked good.
His peak seems to be slightly underappreciated in hindsight but the numbers he posted are great. The numbers that he posted as a CF with plus-plus defense are out of this world. 400HRs will make his case better in terms of random and arbitrary psychological thresholds so I hope he gets there still.
by azruavatar on Jan 5, 2009 10:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
depends on the development of the electorate
Edmonds will be a great test case — when you factor in defense he definitely should be in. However, the hall voters have historically undervalued CF’s relative to other OF’s. It will be very interesting to see how much is made of his defensive accomplishments when he comes up for election. He will get a bump from the highlight-reel crowd, but my guess is that he won’t make the cut from the “did he carry himself like a HOF’er?” knee-jerk voting bloc. I hope that there will be a more thorough evaluation of his overall contributions.
by apack on Jan 5, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Will Ken Griffey Jr's numbers
hurt Edmonds’chances? Should be on the ballot around same time.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometime it rains.
by garden nome on Jan 6, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jed
Was the most exciting baseball player Ive ever seen
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 5, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did anyone else see the countdown of 9 greatest CF of all time
on MLB Networks Prime 9? Mr. Edmonds came in at # 8 in really good company.
the list:
9. Kirby Pucket
8. Edmonds
7.Duke Snider
6.Ken Griffey Jr.
5. Joe Dimaggio
4.Mickey Mantle
3.Tris Speaker
2.Ty Cobb
1.Willie Mays
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometime it rains.
by garden nome on Jan 6, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope the Hall follows that line of thinking.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 6, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice work, DanUp.
You probably opened a can of worms with your McGwire vote, but I will go on the record as saying that I agree with you. And with the Edmonds argument as well.
by cardsgirl95 on Jan 5, 2009 10:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wow
Look at them numbers back in Caruthers time 482 IP, man I wish I could witness the madness that was baseball back then.
Good Read, I think Edmonds has a better chance than anyone on that list, Rolens shoulder will hamper his chances, and until anyone that votes for the Hall puts there pride aside and realize what the steroids eventually led to: The comeback of baseball with the HR derby seasons(IMO) Mac won’t get his chance.
by from First to Third on Jan 5, 2009 10:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
You could always witness the madness that was baseball from an even earlier time
The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs
by jd is legend on Jan 5, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol,
“my fathers passed”
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 5, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that gentelman like to ply (?) his seed in the other melon patch
Im going to start using that
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 5, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and because the oppertunity will probably never present itself here again...
“Perhaps some skiing will help us forget the moldy old antics of Conan O’Brien”
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 5, 2009 8:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You got one vote from the BBWAA?
Epic.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 5, 2009 11:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
one of the best players of an era...
even if it was the steroid era, I think that baseball should not hold mcgwire et al back for what happened as a condition of the time. I was 14 in the summer of ’98 and saw at least 60 of the 70 HRs. I was huge big mac fan and when all the steroid stuff broke it was very much a growing up moment for me when you relize your heros are not what you thought they were. I wish he would take responsibility for what he has done and use his celebrity to help kids know what the dangerous effects, because at the same time I was a high school football player who watched teamates shoot up in the locker room. Anyway he was still a great player who hit 70 HR off of a bunch of roided up pitchers, and if I had to vote I would put him in.
Is it weird that I would rather the payroll be more like the Marlins than the Yankees?
by ForesterShane on Jan 5, 2009 12:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wait
Dan:
As the most astonishing defensive player I’ve personally witnessed
Are you saying that you aren’t old enough to have seen Ozzie in person or that Rolen was more astonishing than Ozzie? Either I suddenly feel old or I suddenly think you are crazy.
by roarke on Jan 5, 2009 1:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Are those mutually exclusive?
Because the older I feel, the crazier the younger generation seems to be. Hold on a second….
HEY!!!! YEAH YOU……….GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!…………AND I"M KEEPING THE BALL!!!!
Sorry, damn kids, where was I………oh yes the 1888 Browns were one of the greatest teams of all time, The Silver King was almost unhittable that year…….
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Jan 5, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I got him to one game with Ozzie playing but he was young. He may be to young to remember.
by momup on Jan 5, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Rolen's Defense
I was around to see Ozzie, so I don’t know that I can say that Rolen was “the most astonishing defensive player I’ve personally witnessed,” but I’ll go on the “Best defensive 3rd baseman” limb.
I was at Old Busch (meaning Busch II in this context) once when I saw Rolen standing about a stride behind and two strides away from third base playing defense. All of a sudden, the left-handed lead off hitter on the other team (can’t remember if it was Pierre or Tavares or someone else that’s really quick) ropes a two hopper that goes over the sack at third. Out of nowhere, Rolen dives into foul territory (as the ball was slicing away down the line), landing belly and face first in the dirt, sliding 4-5 feet past the bag in foul territory. The crowd was just beginning to appreciate the gesture of keeping a leadoff hitter to a single, when all of a sudden Rolen hops to his knees and fires a tightrope line baseball to first that never hit the ground and never got more than 3.5-4 feet from it. Probably the best single play I have seen (in person) on the infield ever. The best part? Rolen got him by a full step.
by stlfan on Jan 6, 2009 9:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
grammar police
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
by _pistol_ on Jan 5, 2009 1:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
No, he's right
It’s just kind of hard to write on Ray Lankford while he is moving. Although I am a little surprised the mailman would deliver him.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Jan 5, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The post office will deliver anything if
it has the proper amount of postage.
by spants on Jan 5, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How do you make a table up in this place
it’s killing me.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 5, 2009 1:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you can in the comments.
by azruavatar on Jan 5, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Grumble, grumble
Now I wasted 20 minutes making a damn table in html.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 5, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Use the pre tag
http://www.w3schools.com/TAGS/tag_pre.asp
http://www.htmlcodetutorial.com/linepar/_PRE.html
The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs
by jd is legend on Jan 5, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who Am I?
Year G AB H 2B 3B HR BA OBP SLG OPS+ 1979 161 610 210 48 11 11 .344 .417 .513 151 1980 159 595 191 39 8 16 .321 .408 .494 147 1981 103 376 115 27 4 8 .306 .401 .463 142 1982 160 579 173 33 6 7 .299 .397 .413 127 1983 150 538 160 23 7 12 .297 .396 .433 131 1984 154 550 171 31 0 15 .311 .409 .449 143 1985 158 593 183 34 4 10 .309 .384 .430 129 1986 149 551 171 34 1 13 .310 .413 .446 140
I won an MVP award, 2 Silver Sluggers, made 4 ASG and won a Gold Glove every year during this 8 year span. I should have won a second MVP award in 1984 but my team finished second in the division to the player who won it.
My career went into rapid decline due to back problems and ultimately cost me a shot at reaching Cooperstown levels of counting stats.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 5, 2009 3:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You also guest starred in a classic Seinfeld episode,
which oughta count for something with BBWAA.
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 5, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Paul O'Neill?
I keed, I keed
The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs
by jd is legend on Jan 5, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha! I forgot about that episode
O’Neill’s appearance on Seinfeld should hurt his HOF chances (such as they are); it was very stilted acting. Same goes for Danny Tartabull. But Hernandez acquitted himself quite well, I thought.
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 5, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Keith Hernandez
is nothing if not a total ham.
by spants on Jan 5, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
here's what i dont get...
he had better stats than Mattingly (at least as good), better with the glove, played longer and had a WS championship…they each had an MVP and runner-up finish and killer ‘staches. so why does Donnie Baseball get so much more HOF love? I dont think either belong in but c’mon at least consider him if you are going to cry for Mattingly…
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
by nomar34 on Jan 5, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2 WS championships
’82 and ’86
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometime it rains.
by garden nome on Jan 6, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Keith Hernandez
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Woo-hoo
another lefty reliever my excitement cant be controlled…
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
by nomar34 on Jan 5, 2009 3:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Who you play for
Face it, if Boyer had been a Yankee, he would be in the Hall , and if Edmonds had played in New York, his catch against the Astros would be the greatest of all time instead of the Mays catch.
by Remember Kenny B on Jan 5, 2009 3:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
his catch against the Astros is the greatest of all time
i dont even think twice about answering that way either…of course, if i was a Giants fan in the 50’s i might be singing a different tune…
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
by nomar34 on Jan 5, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It may not even be Edmond's greatest catch
Though video of the catch in kansas City is hard to find.
But, OTOH, I have a litle animated GIF what the catch at Minute Maid. I play it sometimes to give myself a smile.
by sdrone on Jan 5, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
post please
some of us need to be able to smile, too!
if you can’t trust a southern lawyer cooking a kosher meal in a dumpster,
well, then, the world has grown far too cynical
by RosevilleRedbird on Jan 5, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the KC catch was a more amazing play
but the Houston catch was the entire season coming down to one ball that had to be caught and the result was a 10th championship therefore it has to be his ‘greatest catch’
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
by nomar34 on Jan 5, 2009 8:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The result was not a 10th championship
The result was a 16th NL pennant. I believe you got your 2004 and 2006 postseasons confused…
The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs
by jd is legend on Jan 5, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you are so right
i stand corrected…
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
by nomar34 on Jan 5, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Small Markets Hurt Ted Simmons
Carlton Fisk played the majority of his career in Chicago. Gary Carter played five seasons and won a world championship in New York. Johnny Bench didn’t play in a big market in Cincinnati but was in 4 World Series and on two world championship teams.
Simmons had his best years in the small markets of St. Louis and Milwaukee. He was only in one World Series in 1982 playing against the Cardinals for the Brewers. He was never in the media spotlight as much as Fisk, Carter, and Bench.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jan 5, 2009 4:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Fisk was inducted as a BoSox
He started with Boston (1969,1971-1980) and finished his career with 13 years as a WhiteSox. With 376 homers, he could have played his whole career as a Royal and still made the hall.
by ubeddie on Jan 5, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fisk, Carter, and Bench
All of those guys were also elite defensive catchers for most of their careers, something that Simmons never was. Bench pretty well changed how the position was played, Fisk was an all-around good defensive player and middle of the order hitter, and Carter is probably one of the best defensive catchers ever to play the game. He’s part of the reason those Mets teams were so good in that era — he could cut down the other teams running game in an era where a lot of teams based their offenses around small ball.
I like Ted Simmons and think he deserves attention for the Hall, but he just isn’t in the company of those other three guys, regardless of the market that they played in.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 5, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs signed Milton Bradley
Who here wanted Bradley….. I forgot?
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jan 5, 2009 4:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
am i the only one looking forward to the first bradley/sweet lou moment in the dugout?
if you can’t trust a southern lawyer cooking a kosher meal in a dumpster,
well, then, the world has grown far too cynical
by RosevilleRedbird on Jan 5, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the funny thing is that it wouldn't be a first for him
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 5, 2009 8:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 5, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's going to be amazing
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
McGwire
You said it: every one of his at bats was appointment TV. I will never forget with what grace he handled the moment when he eclipsed Roger Maris’ record. That trip into the stands to embrace the Maris family was extremely moving. He was one of the finest gentlemen in his era of the sport. Compare his behavior with that of Ricky Henderson when he broke Lou Brock’s base stealing record. I definitely believe baseball owes Big Mac a plaque in the Hall of Fame.
by frankenbird on Jan 5, 2009 5:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
OT: I need a little assistance
Im trying to locate a quote somebody had in their tag line. I thought I read it yesterday, but I went back and couldn’t find it. The quote was something to the effect of Pujols is such a great teammate that you want to do good so that you don’t dissapoint him.
If anyone knows the direct quote and can direct me to it, I would greatly appreciate it.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jan 5, 2009 5:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
here ya go scoot
It’s in the last paragraph of this blog on Joe Posnanski’s website.
“Second, I remember once talking to one guy on the Cardinals and asking him what Pujols was like as a teammate. He went on and on about how the guy always came through, how his work ethic was insane, how he cared only about winning. Then he said something that’s really special, if you think about it. He said: "Albert is so good that you feel like you let him down when you screw up." I thought that had to be the ultimate line that could ever be said about a ballplayer. I build my baseball team around that ballplayer.”
by stlfan on Jan 6, 2009 9:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
in case people didnt hear
Cubs signed Bradly for like 3/10
the Cards signed some minor league LHRP Royce Ring (who would think there would be two Royces to wear the birds on the bat)
and appearently Tony and Dave have identified a FA starting Pitcher (non cardinal, non Smoltz) that they think they can convert to a closer…
http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=598210
oh, and Pat the Bat signed with tampa
(sorry if this is all old news)
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 5, 2009 6:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't get this bleeping obsession with a closer
OUR ROTATION IS THE CURRENT PROBLEM.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 5, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i tend to agree
I also dont get the obsession with guys like Garland and Wolf
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 5, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
someone mentioned the Milton Bradley signing just above a couple posts ^
but that cool
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"and appearently Tony and Dave have identified a FA starting Pitcher (non cardinal, non Smoltz) that they think they can convert to a closer…"
thanks for that link, pretty interesting. my guess would be Mark Prior
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my guess
Koji Uehara? He’s not the Japanese pitcher the Cardinals have been identified with the most, but he spent a year and a half as a closer in Japan, during which he had the Dennis Eckersley skill-set: 66 strikeouts, 4 walks.
by DanUpBaby on Jan 5, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i hadnt even considered one of the imports
I know we were :linked", whatever that means, With one of them.
Its hard to tell how those guys do over here though.
I would bet relief could help them out those, given less exposure, kind of like Saito
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 5, 2009 7:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he immediately came to mind
since I’ve been pushing for him for two years now, but he’s already got closing experience, so he wouldn’t seem to fit the mold. or maybe I’m reading too much into “the next eckersley” comment, since Uehara did start out as a starter and move to closer in his early 30’s.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 5, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just what I was thinking
And wondering why nobody had said it in the Cards talk thread. Not thinking far enough out of the box I guess. Definitely makes more sense than some of the previously mentioned options.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jan 5, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i was hoping Danup would post it there
id have done it but you know
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 5, 2009 8:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I scanned through the archives but I need some help
does anyone have the post about Milton Bradley from a while back?
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 5, 2009 7:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Betting On Bradly?
the article by Lboros outlying his hopes of acquiring Bradly can be found here Throughout Bradly’s impressive season I thought of this article, rather than wishing that he was here, rather I was just a little more impressed with the insight Lboros had when evaluating players. He really should be working for an organization.
I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I'm trying to not be selfish about it, but to use it, OK? Jealousy will get you nowhere!
by Dave Barry on Jan 5, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"He really should be working for an organization"
Maybe he is, but it’s super secret. Hence he had to give up this board. But I jest. Lboros does indeed have some great insight….. but M.B. + TLR is just slightly better than M.B. + L.P……. and we can watch the implosion without the payroll problems.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jan 5, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope
he is, and I hope it’s the cardinals.
Lboros = Five Tool Blogger
I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I'm trying to not be selfish about it, but to use it, OK? Jealousy will get you nowhere!
by Dave Barry on Jan 5, 2009 8:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
people were bashing bradley because "22 hr and 7X rbi"
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 5, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i love looking back at old threads
Apparently I should have taken up following curling, since the fact that I thought Luddy could be almost as good as Bradley in 2008 was so absurd.
And imagine if we had made that reyes-for-quentin trade that MrPlow suggested ;)
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 5, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That would have been nice
Imagine a lineup with Pujols, Quentin, Ankiel, and Santa. I wonder if Ludwick would have had the same opportunity if they’d have had Quentin?
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 5, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
all that's true
but, if I remember correctly, LB was arguing for a 1 year deal w/ Bradley, not a 3 year deal. Entirely different level of commitment. He was also looking at a $5 – 7 M deal rather than $10 M per, to say nothing of the fact that we needed (or seemed to need) an OF then and don’t now.
by chuckb on Jan 5, 2009 9:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Amazing isn't
Back then it seemed like we needed another outfielder, but with the emergence Skippy, Ank, and Ludwick as quality-to-very high quality players and Barton and Mather showing flashes. Go figure.
Now it seems like the bullpen is the problem, at least to many. However, the way I see it this team has three young righties with potential (YP, Motte, and Kinney) and a whole bunch of LOOGY options so the bullpen isn’t as much of a problem as many casual Cardinal fans seem to believe.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 5, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn
After flashes, it was supposed to say “the outfield was far from the problem last season.”
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 5, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and remember, after 2007
the bullpen was the least of our worries. In fact, the springer/franklin/izzy combo in 2007 was flat-out amazing.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 5, 2009 9:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Go figure...
But on the other hand Franklin’s BABIP in 07 was freakishly good and Izzy was actually healthy. Change those factors and, well, things got ugly.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 5, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Franklin wasn't so bad in 08 though
He just should never be used as a closer
by vivaelpujols on Jan 6, 2009 1:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
His FIP was an ugly 4.75, he had a 1.70 K/BB ratio, walked nearly 3.5 hitters per 9, and had a WHIP of 1.47. I don’t see any of those numbers as particularly good. And a pitcher who is good at getting people out consistently can close. Franklin wasn’t that…hence the reason he shouldn’t have closed. Closing didn’t ruin him…being average at best did.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 6, 2009 2:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasnt saying that WE should have signed him
But that laughing at the Cubs for signing him isnt smart
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 6, 2009 2:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Man
I was both right and wrong about Carlos Quentin. He’s a great player but he does end up injured again.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 5, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So I'm watching the halftime show of the Fiesta Bowl...
…quite a boring game thus far really…but Texas’s band did a Led Zeppelin-based halftime show. Awesome. I’m pretty much hyperventilating right now. The first time I heard Dazed and Confused my spine literally tingled.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 5, 2009 10:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Handsome Willie
If you could ever see Willie McGee dash from 1st to home on a double or run down a drive in the alley, you would think, “that was a damn handsome ball player”
by bigmotors on Jan 6, 2009 2:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Betty is now a Rockie
Marquis for Vizcaino.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jan 6, 2009 4:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
So Back to McGwire
I think it’s too often overlooked that McGwire had a .993 career fielding percentage. That’s pretty decent. Just .007% of the time he made an error.
by Fuzzz Hardeman on Jan 7, 2009 1:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

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