Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: The Boxing Bulletin for Boxing Fans!

It's not easy being Greene

(Sorry...couldn't resist!)

First, a couple of procedural matters. I’ve been out of town for a week and am just getting reacquainted w/ this thing we call "a computer" and am trying to catch up on my Cardinal and baseball-related required reading. Go to futureredbirds and check out their posts on the Cards’ top prospects. It’s always good to see the next wave of players to help us know what to look forward to (and what to lament).

Second, there’s an organizational report over at USA Today (thanks, gdm, for the link) where you can go to read about Carp’s importance to the team and some of our prospects. It reads as a USA Today does – which means many of you already know more than what’s there, but it still makes for an interesting read.

Third, Miles really does love St. Louis after all. Apparently Mo offered Miles 2 years (yuck!) and $4.3 M (double-yuck!) and Miles…wait for it…here’s that quote again, reprising Edgar Renteria circa 2004 … "went with the team that wanted me more." Many have used that oft-quoted remark by Edgar 4 years hence to suggest some lingering animus between he and the team and likely they’ll do the same w/ Miles, particularly since we’ll be playing against him 36 times or so in the next couple of years. IMO, it’s overblown. Miles is right and Renteria was right. They each went w/ the team that wanted them more and I’m glad that the Cubs wanted Miles more. We’ll be just fine. Good luck, Aaron. I hope it works out for you. And hopefully we won’t have to read what a traitor Miles was (as we did w/ Edmonds a million times) for signing w/ the Cubs.

Ok, to our Khalil Greene projections. There were 82 of them – outstanding! -- and they ranged from Forester Shane’s very optimistic .276/.320/.525 w/ 31 HR projection to capn crunch’s not so optimistic .252/.312/.407 w/ 13 HR projection. I was a little surprised that 13 HR (twice) was our community’s low. As a group, we’re very optimistic about Greene’s 2009 which, as some of you pointed out (and I forgot to mention) is his contract year.

AB H HR RBI AVG OBP SLG
High 600 160 31 92 .321 .381 .525
Low 372 94 13 51 .213 .270 .381

There’s quite a range but he could still be a pretty valuable SS if he finished w/ 13 HR and 51 RBI, assuming his OBP was closer to .320 than .270. If he hit some doubles and triples, his SLG would still be in the .420-.440 range and, considering his at least league-average defense, he’d be our best SS since Edgar – even w/ 13 HR and 51 RBI. As a group, we’re considerably more optimistic than either the ZIPS or Marcel projections (PECOTA’s not out yet).

AB H HR RBI AVG OBP SLG
Ours 498 131 19 71 .263 .316 .449
Zips 453 113 17 65 .249 .303 .435
Marcel 436 104 15 55 .239 .291 .408

Compare all that to his career averages (not counting his 65 ABs in 2003).

AB H HR RBI AVG OBP SLG
466 116 16 64 .249 .306 .428

There’s a lot working in Greene’s favor – a switch from PETCO to Busch, a contract year, maybe a greater commitment to prove his awful 2008 was a fluke. Hopefully those things come to fruition – hopefully for us, and hopefully for him b/c if he performs this season as we expect him to, he’s going to make a lot of money next offseason.

0 recs  |  Comment 122 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

didn't mean to be the outlier

and the .525 slugging is probably a little higher than I intended, but i think the stars just might aline for K-bot this year. Working in his favor: contract year, much better hitters ballpark, better hitters division, much better line up (in which he should figure to be the 5th or 6th best hitter taking a lot of the pressure of him), plenty of rest after spending the second half of last year on the DL, getting time off in the right situations thanks to TLR’s ever rotating lineup, and the a fresh start in a good situation which could be very important to the hippie.

The unfortunate thing is if he does have a great year the cardinals long term SS problem still won’t be fixed, because he will probably price himself too high to be able to afford to resign him. But I will take what I can get this year and hope for barden, kozma, etc to keep progressing.

Is it weird that I would rather the payroll be more like the Marlins than the Yankees?

by ForesterShane on Jan 4, 2009 12:53 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think we are going to dislike Greene

I think his K prone ways and his aversion to walking will eventually get to the lot of us.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 4, 2009 12:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

"between he and the team"

With that kind of syntax ( a sin that calls for a taxing remark!), a writer should not be so quick to cast sabermetric aspersions on Aaron Miles. It’s “him” by the way.

by Mike G on Jan 4, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Difference between reply and post.

If you are looking to attack chuckb for a comment he made in the post than you probably shouldn’t “reply” to a comment for FlimtotheFlam.

In addition, this post did not cast any form of sabermetric aspersions on Aaron Miles; and random grammar corrections will not make you any friends.

by etp_stl on Jan 4, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm didn't write it to make friends

I wrote it because the failure to distinguish between “I” and “me” has reached epidemic proportions in our society and because people who claim to be writers and fail to keep up basic standards of literacy need to be called to task for it. I don’t mean to be particularly harsh with chuckb, but I feel at least as strongly about linguistic abuses as he does about overpaying Aaron Miles. Perhaps I should just have simply followed his example, said “yuck” in response to his unfortunate locution, and let it go at that. But while he didn’t specifically cite Miles’s alleged sabermetric shortcomings in his post, he didn’t need to because it’s obvious that so many on this board share his assumptions about these. Compare danup’s implication yesterday that because Miles’s “intangibles” can’t be measured they must not exist. I would have concluded that this incapacity suggests the shortcomings of statisticians rather than of Miles, but devotees of the sabermetric art are not always noted for their modesty.

by Mike G on Jan 4, 2009 9:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay

I don’t think anyone takes their grammer very seriously around here, at least I know that I don’t. It will get very old if you feel the urge to point out every single flaw in people’s posts and comments. I for one am thankful that Chuckb, DanUp, and the Red Baron take their time to satiate our endless appetites for useless Cardinals information. That said, I’m not going to get onto them for their grammer. It’s just not that important in a blog. It’s highly inconsiderate to simply denigrate the post and his grammer when you haven’t been on the site very long. A negative attitude will get you nowhere.

But while he didn’t specifically cite Miles’s alleged sabermetric shortcomings in his post, he didn’t need to because it’s obvious that so many on this board share his assumptions about these.

You could try looking this up yourself rather than insinuating that the general consensus is false. In his three years in STL, Miles was a 0, .1, and a 1.9 WAR player. Kennedy, who is already under contract, has been a 1.2, -1, and 1.7 WAR player in his past three seasons. Miles’s 2B UZR was 1.1 in 2008 and his SS UZR was 1. Kennedy’s UZR at 2B in 2008 was 10.4. Miles had a great season in 2008, but it was propped up on an unsustainable .343 BABIP. His career BABIP is .316. Kennedy’s season was worse, but he had a .316 BABIP. Miles’s career OPS+ is 77. League average is 100. Even in his best season ever last year, it was 99.

We don’t need Miles. He’s a fine utility player, but paying a utility player $2.5M a year just isn’t smart. We can plug in Ryan, Barden, or some other minor league player and get similar production. Letting him go allows us to allocate resources to areas of more pressing need, such as the starting rotation.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 4, 2009 10:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As a matter of fact

I think I’ve been on the site a lot longer than chuckb and danup have—for several years at least before their recent prominence—even though I post a lot less than some of you. I don’t often go out on grammar patrol, so you needn’t worry that I’m going to ride herd on everyone’s posts. Life is too short for that. I do think, however, that our chief posters ought to try to avoid verbal solecisms that stick out like the proverbial sore thumb. If you don’t agree, I guess you’ll just have to tune me out. Perhaps I’ve been spoiled by lboros, who always wrote so well.
     I do appreciate your passing on the sabermetric dope re Miles and saving me the trouble of looking it up for myself. I think this sort of stuff can be both illuminating and useful, as long as one doesn’t too readily assume that it provides a full and complete picture of a player’s relative worth. Unlike some of you, I do believe that intangibles exist and are important, even if they can’t be measured statistically. I’m also not willing to assume that Miles’s genuine contributions are going to be so easy to replace at half the price. As far as I’m concerned, it’s high time that some of the savings that the Cardinals are so busy accumulating this winter by dumping Miles and others are converted into tangible improvements to the ball club instead of hoarded for some future buying splurge that never seems to arrive.

by Mike G on Jan 4, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In an attempt to lighten the mood...

Mike G…your original post’s title was “I’m didn’t write it to make friends”

I had to chuckle about that after reading this comment. Sorry if this causes more angst.

by stlfan on Jan 5, 2009 8:28 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Actually

my original post was titled “between he and the team.” You could look it up. Sorry for the confusion, and I appreciate the mood lightening.

by Mike G on Jan 5, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Even if you have

“been on” the site “for several years,” that doesn’t mean you have been contributing. With 64 comments and 0 posts since March 15th, and nearly half of those comments coming in the last month, I don’t see why you feel you have to right to insult someone who works so hard for the rest of us. Not that you have to have been on the site for a long time to share your ideas, I’ve read the blog for about a year and a half and only got an account this fall, but at least you could show some respect to those who have offered their time to make it better. Your pompous attitude is insulting.

As for Miles’s “intangibles”… What exactly do you think these are? Are they worth $2.5M a year? Remember, Brendan Ryan tries really hard all the time too, does that mean he has just as many “intangibles” as Miles?

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 5, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

to thegodfather

You, sir, should have quit while you were ahead. Your previous missive directed to me was on the whole a thoughtful, civilized, and intelligent response to what I had written. Now it appears that you have nothing better to do than count the number of posts I have made since March 15—am I to assume that nothing posted in the years previous to that arbitrary date counts?—and to declare grandly that a mere 64 posts doesn’t entitle me to deliver a rather minor criticism with a touch of sarcasm. I stated quite candidly that I don’t post as much as some of you, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t read the site regularly or that 60 years of following the Cardinals doesn’t make me at least as qualified to be critical of what I read here as you are. The real problem I think is that apparently there are some very thin-skinned people on this site who are too quick to imagine insult where none is intended but have no hesitation in dishing out insults of their own. I’ll try to keep that in mind. I would recommend, however, that you be more cautious of accusing others of pomposity, since it appears that you have a bit of that trait yourself.
     As to whether Miles’s intangibles are worth $2.5M a year,I guess that depends. Obviously they are to the Cubs, but then the Cubs are interested in winning and don’t feel the need to cut corners the way the Cardinals do. I guess we’ll find out who’s right soon enough. All I can say at this point is that I have less faith than you in sabermetric wisdom and less confidence that utility infielders are really such fungible commodities that it makes no real difference whether you have a Brendan Ryan, a Joe Thurston, or an Aaron Miles.

by Mike G on Jan 6, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You've got to have

better things to do than this, right? Just let it go, man.

by spants on Jan 6, 2009 2:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Try

Clicking on your user ID. On the page you are directed to, it says how long you’ve been on the site (at least the new one) and how many comments you’ve made. It took me about four seconds. I do not think it’s fair for anyone, especially someone with minimal contributiions, to insult the main posters on this site. Yes, insinuating that chuckb is only “someone who purports to be a writer” is highly insulting. Think of it this way, if you wrote main articles for this site three days a week, would you appreciate if someone who posts infrequently said that to you? I doubt it. Your first comment was fine, but your reply to etp_stl was unacceptable.

As for the pomposity, I was reffering to your “ostentatious loftiness of language.” People relaxing, wanting to discuss baseball don’t care be be spoken down to about their use of English.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 6, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure what was unacceptable

in my reply to etp_stl, but you do persist in finding insult where none was intended and assuming that mere apprentices to the sacred mysteries of this site have no right to criticize its high priests, especially if that criticism has the audacity to take the form of sarcasm. I think that’s rather presumptuous of you and that chuckb is quite capable of defending himself without your help. If you don’t like what you have decided is my “ostentatious loftiness of language,” please feel free to ignore it, just as I intend henceforth ignore you, at least until you get off your foolish “insult” kick and say something worth attending to.

by Mike G on Jan 6, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about

but to state that I “fail to keep up basic standards of literacy” is, frankly, insulting (about which you couldn’t care less) and indisputably false. I’m not sure about which linguistic abuse you’re referring since you didn’t have the courtesy to include it along with your insult, but if you think I can’t recognize the difference between “I” and “me,” you clearly didn’t take the time to read the post. I don’t mind grammatical corrections b/c (hope you don’t mind the shorthand) I do take the time to proofread my work and attempt to be perfect with my grammar and spelling. Feel free, therefore, to correct it if you feel the need. I can, however, live w/o the sanctimony and the righteous indignation. If you disagree w/ my characterization of Aaron Miles, please explain. Please do not state, suggest, or imply, however that I “fail to keep up basic standards of literacy.”

I do not pretend to be perfect, but I make every attempt to insure that my grammar and spelling are correct when I post. I humbly apologize to you, Mike, for making 1 grammatical error in this post. I’ll likely make one again Thursday. If you can’t handle that (or my criticism of Aaron Miles’s inherent mediocrity), that’s just too damned bad. Deal with it. You might try being more constructively critical rather than attempting to get your rocks off by tossing insults around.

by chuckb on Jan 4, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Sorry Chuck

but as far as I’m concerned a phrase like “between he and the team” does represent a failure to keep up basic standards of literacy, albeit, I grant you, a small one. However, once we start getting complacent about small errors, it becomes that much easier to perpetuate larger ones. Most writers I know value and gratefully accept criticism that results in improvement of their texts without complaints about the sanctimony of their critics. I know I do. Any doubt about the “linguistic abuse” to which I was referring would have been removed if you had bothered to notice the title of my first post of the day; you appear only to have read the one that was in response to the godfather’s criticism of a subsequent one. At any rate, I’m not surprised to learn that you are usually a careful editor of your own work. It shows, which is why the error about which I may have indeed made too much seemed so egregious.
     I don’t think there is much point in further debate about Miles. You are convinced of his “inherent mediocrity.” I believe that in the role he performed with the Cardinals, that of a utility man, he was considerably better than mediocre. Some of our differences may be matters of terminology; I agree that if he were to be considered strictly as a second baseman mediocrity would not be inappropriate; as a shortstop even that evaluation would be too high. In addition, as I indicated in an earlier post, I think there are intangibles
that are relevant in determining a player’s worth, that these exist even if they can’t be statistically measured, and that they are particularly pertinent in evaluating a player like Miles. As a full-fledged sabermetrician, you probably disagree. I can handle it, and I can handle criticism too. Can you?

by Mike G on Jan 5, 2009 12:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're completely ridiculous
but as far as I’m concerned a phrase like "between he and the team" does represent a failure to keep up basic standards of literacy, albeit, I grant you, a small one.

So it’s a “small” failure to keep up the basic standards of literacy? What does that even mean?

And here I thought basic standards of literacy basically meant something, I dunno, basic — i.e. coherence. I think you’d find that a lot of people get by without as advanced an understanding of the language’s grammatical intricacies as you. Perhaps you should reconsider what basic means. To say to someone that they fail to uphold the basic standards is basically saying that they completely fail to produce the English language. That’s pretty goddamn insulting, whether or not you’re “writing to make friends.” It’s also outrageously pompous.

However, once we start getting complacent about small errors, it becomes that much easier to perpetuate larger ones.

This is called the slippery slope fallacy, and isn’t a valid line of reasoning. Perhaps it should be said that you’re failing to uphold the basic standards of logic and rational thought.

Most writers I know value and gratefully accept criticism that results in improvement of their texts without complaints about the sanctimony of their critics.

Most writers enjoy constructive criticism because it is presented in a manner that isn’t haughty and self-important. Pointing out a writer’s mistake and explaining how and why it detracts from their piece is useful criticism. Pointing out their mistake and telling them that they fail to uphold even basic English is insulting and downright ruthless.

I know I do.

Are you sure? Because when you titled your reply “I’m didn’t write it to make friends,” you’ll notice nobody declared your writing abilities to be an abomination amounting to a clear ignorance of the language’s most elemental, basic, and simple rules. In fact, everyone pretty much ignored it. So are you ready to admit that you fail to uphold the languages most basic grammatical standards? Hmm?

Any doubt about the "linguistic abuse" to which I was referring would have been removed if you had bothered to notice the title of my first post of the day; you appear only to have read the one that was in response to the godfather’s criticism of a subsequent one.

The title of your first post of the day was a quote of chuckb’s grammatical error. You then followed that up by basically telling him he’s a complete simpleton. I don’t really see what the title of the post has to do with anything. Did he make a grammatical mistake? Yes, he did. Were you a complete asshole about the whole thing? Yeah, you were (and continue to be).

At any rate, I’m not surprised to learn that you are usually a careful editor of your own work. It shows, which is why the error about which I may have indeed made too much seemed so egregious.

Translation: Now that I have reasserted that I think you suck at writing (emphasis again on how you’re failing to accomplish basic tasks), I’ll go ahead and say you don’t suck at writing. That way I come off looking like the victim here instead of the jackass who freaked out over a simple grammatical mistake on a blog; we’re not talking about a publication, mind you, where there are editors and such…just a blog.

I can handle it, and I can handle criticism too. Can you?

Here’s an example of criticism as useful as that which you’ve doled out here today: “You’re a dickhead.” Want some more? “Your mom smells like fish.” And another? “You’re uglier than Michael Jackson!”

Telling someone that they fail to uphold basic standards of English is criticism, yes. But it’s not constructive criticism. It’s completely worthless, unnecessarily harsh, and downright mean-spirited. It helps in no way whatsoever.

This is one of the single most insulting things I think I’ve ever seen anyone on this site say to anyone else, given the persons involved. You say you don’t mean to be overtly insulting—if that’s true, then perhaps it’s you who needs a better understanding of how his words are working, not chuckb. Get a grip.

by mojowo11 on Jan 5, 2009 2:06 AM EST up reply actions   4 recs

heh

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

reply to mojowolf11

I’m not going to waste my time trying to explain to you how failing to make a proper distinction between “he” and “him” in a prepositional phrase can be a basic failure of literacy without resulting in a complete failure to produce the English language—whatever that means. I’ll just note that linguistic abuses that one lets pass in ordinary conversation sometimes ought to be pointed out to someone who purports to be a writer. I believe I have as much right to draw attention to chuckb’s writing errors as he does to point out Aaron Miles’s shortcomings on the field. Valid criticisms are not insults. In that vein you seem to be trying to suggest that I have somehow failed to “uphold the languages [sic] most basic grammatical standards.” I would be happy to respond to this argument if it weren’t too muddled and unintelligible to follow.
     I do, however, reject your accusation that I am guilty of the “slippery slope fallacy.” If you re-read the link you have so helpfully provided, you will note that a slippery slope argument is only fallacious when it contends that B must necessarily follow from A without demonstrating the intervening steps. A statement that complacency about small errors makes it easier to perpetuate larger ones is hardly comparable to the gross oversimplifications given as examples of the slippery slope fallacy in your appended text. Fifty years ago—I speak from experience—high school students routinely learned to diagram sentences and so learned, among other things, how prepositional phrases work. As a result they were much less likely to produce linguistic boners like “between he and the team.” The prevalence today of this kind of imprecise language and the willingness of people who should know better to tolerate and condone it suggest to me a significant deterioration of linguistic standards. If this is pomposity I make no apologies for it.
     Finally, the insults you imagine me guilty of pale in comparison with the ad hominem attacks you seem all too comfortable with. You falsely accuse me of “basically” calling chuckb a “complete simpleton,” but you consider it appropriate as part of your own elevated discourse to actually call me a “complete asshole” and a “jackass.” I don’t know if the new regime here pays any attention to the community guidelines that the old regime posted not too long ago, but I notice that they’re still on the board. I suggest you take a look at what they say about the standards of civility expected of posters on this site and see if you can manage to adhere to them.

by Mike G on Jan 6, 2009 3:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1 re language

Also, chuckb’s use of the word ‘hence’ to mean 4 years ago sends the meaning in the wrong direction; ‘hence’ has a few meanings, but when talking about time, it means in the future, not in the past. I’m constantly cringing when reading the posts here. Just because we love baseball and the Redbirds, does not mean that we have to settle for poor grammar. Don’t give in to the stereotype!

There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 4, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Although

in general, chuckb, danup and redbaron’s main posts are well-written, and especially well thought-out. Don’t know where I’d be re:understanding sabermetrics without them.

There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 4, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sheesh
I’m constantly cringing when reading the posts here.

That wasn’t very nice. I’m sure your grammer might slip a time or two if you posted an article in a blog three times a week.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 5, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That ref

was to the rest of the bloggers here, not the Gang of Three. And hey, I’m not immune to speeling misteaks or tieping ones, either/.

There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 7, 2009 12:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The gang of three.

I like it. Reminds me of “Thank You For Smoking”.

by azruavatar on Jan 7, 2009 8:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lol

Fair enough. Az’s right, Gang of Three is like Thank You for Smoking. Funny movie.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 7, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As a writer, English major, and compulsive editor

I must say that some of you guys have sticks lodged up parts of your digestive system that I didn’t even know exist.

by mojowo11 on Jan 4, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

completely agree

I could throw around some grammatical hoodoo too, but what’s the point? Seems like a pissing contest to me, pretty much every time.

mel

by mel1975 on Jan 5, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Amen Brother!

Few of us on here take the time to proofread our comments. Even fewer are held to the standards of our 9th grade Grammar teacher on a daily basis. It is one thing if, as mojowo11 points out above, it is either difficult or impossible to understand the crux of the point of view of the post; but to correct one’s grammar on a technical issue is simply to act superior for the sake of it.

ISawGod’s response at least dealt with a possible confusion of the meaning that chuckb was trying to convey, though I doubt many of us had much issue understanding him. Mike G’s attack was simply for the sake of his own self-importance, and that was the reason I responded initially.

Furthermore, as I stated above, one must be careful to do everything right in one’s own posts if one is going to become the self-appointed judge on such topics. However, Mike G’s initial response was extremely unclear, as he eggregiously responded to the wrong post. In addition, it sounded petulant as he mixed his point by attacking chuckb’s grammar and his assertion on the contract of Aaron Miles. He also included in his attack assertions that were not stated explicitly by the author, but rather those that he projected upon him instead. He then followed that with a truly “basic” grammar mistake in the title of his response to my post. Of course it was an error that didn’t involve his understanding of the language, but simply an error made by responding too quickly and emotionally. Unfortunately, the reason no longer mattered once he decided that perfection was a requirement of being allowed to post in this forum.

by etp_stl on Jan 5, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and it seems like it was started

by disagreement over Miles. The whole grammar part read as a prelude to going off about Aaron f-in Miles. I don’t get all the acrimony over the Miles situation, and I am a huge Miles fan.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 5, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

reply to etp_stl

I do hope this message arrives in the right place because I don’t want to be accused again of “egregiously” responding to the wrong post. It also seems unfair to be blamed for ascribing chuckb’s attitude toward Miles to the former’s sabermetric inclinations. Having read a fair number of chuck’s posts, I think I can be safely absolved of projecting those inclinations upon an unwilling participant, and it would be clearly wrong to presume his lack of enthusiasm for Miles to be purely irrational. I’m not sure what you mean when you speak of a “grammar mistake in the title of [my] response to [your] post” that was “an error made by responding too quickly and emotionally.” The title was “between he and the team,” and it was a reference to the error that was the subject of the post, but the error was not mine nor was it the result of my “responding too quickly and emotionally.” Is it too much to hope that you are not accusing me of making the very error I was attempting to criticize?

by Mike G on Jan 6, 2009 4:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your original post title, ...

that was apparently directed at chuckb, was “between he and the team;” however, the title of your reply to my post was “I’m didn’t write it to make friends.” That was the title to which I was referring, and that is obviously a significant and basic grammar mistake. This was clearly a factor of you not proofreading your own post, which happens to be a similar accusation to the one you are making against chuckb.

Your mistaken reply on your original post made your point difficult to understand, and thus caused FlimtotheFlam’s confused response. Isn’t the most basic object of grammar and syntax to make your communication understood? You failed by misidentifying the subject of your communication.

The single biggest mistake you made was a logical mistake in your argumentation. You attacked chuckb’s grammar in order to make your point that he shouldn’t use statistical data in his decision about the validity of the contract proposed to Aaron Miles. How’s that? The two are associated by what? Had you no intelligent argument about the baseball prowess of Aaron Miles with which to rebut chuckb’s “lack of enthusiasm,” as you labeled it?

I would much rather be accused of using the wrong pronoun based on a confusion between the subject and the object of a sentence, than be accused of making an haphazard and disjointed argument in a debate forum.

by etp_stl on Jan 6, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If there is a significant and basic "grammar mistake"

in “I didn’t write to make friends,” you’ll have to explain it to me, and I expect to everyone else as well. As for your third paragraph, there is no point in explaining the “argumentation” to you since my admittedly modest effort at irony and sarcasm is obviously too subtle for you to follow. Everything one writes does not have to take the form of a full-fledged argument; one sometimes elects to choose other rhetorical devices to make one’s point, sometimes at the risk of being misunderstood. I’ve wasted enough time on belaboring the obvious with you; I’m done.

by Mike G on Jan 6, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I question whether you continue to miss it on purpose.

There is no grammatical error to “I didn’t write it to make friends;” however, you wrote in your title "I’m didn’t write it to make friends.

I’M … I’M … I’M

It has been mentioned twice in my replies; and once it was mentioned by mojowo11 in his post titled “You’re completely ridiculous,” though he referenced it as your first post rather than your first reply to me. In each instance you have chosen to deflect the criticism to your first title, or, in the last case, you simply miscontstrued your own title.

By the way, your subtle “irony” was so subtle that it was non-existent. While your statement was sarcastic and insulting, there was no irony involved. Perhaps you might explain to me how your statement presented a contextual meaning contrary to what you wrote. Again, for the great linguist that you claim to be, you make a quite simple mistake in the basics of the English language. Now that’s ironic.

by etp_stl on Jan 6, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Ok

I finally see what you mean. It was a typo rather than a grammatical error although I understand why you felt justified in chiding me for it, and I can hardly blame you. I was so firmly aware of what I had thought I had written that I failed to notice that I hadn’t. I’m not insulted that you pointed it out and am grateful that you did. The messenger may be vulnerable, but the message remains valid. If you fail to see the irony in my remark, so be it: I fail to see the insult.

by Mike G on Jan 6, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i completely agree

i think there is a chance Greene will be the next Encarnacion.

he will be very annoying and take a lot of crap, more than he deserves.
He will take more because he will have been our “big acquisition” this offseason, just like Juan was.
He will be the player he usually is but it wont be enough and he will take the brunt of the criticism.

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Jan 4, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Spin

At least TLR isn’t selling Greene as a “core player” and talking about how great he is.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 4, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Everyday I have to wake up and remind myself

Khalil Greene is on the team. There has been so much inactivity that it seems like that trade was 3 years ago.

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 4, 2009 1:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

yes

yes, YES!

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 4, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

High on Sheets myself, but this scared me (especially with Carp)

Busta Olney relayed this on his Insider (subscription required) blog today:

Heard this: Several teams are concerned about what they ascertained from Ben Sheets medical reports — but about his shoulder, and not his elbow.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 4, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good

sign him anyways, that should drive the market down.

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 4, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mo has been so averse on injury

risks, I can’t see this one happening no matter how much we want it to.

I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds

by erik on Jan 4, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

as opposed to Miller? Do you think the Miller signing went ahead just due to being cheap? I’m just curious if you feel as if Mo will see Sheets at a “right” price, or not even look.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 4, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Reluctantly, I agree

I wish it would happen, but I doubt it. We’ve had such bad luck with high profile injuries lately, I’m sure Mo is scared of making another injury related mistake. Miller is a low-risk type injury signing because he should be able to pitch and he doesn’t cost much. Now I’m kind of pulling for Lowe, he’s cheap(ish) and durable. We need a front end starter.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 4, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I gotta tell ya ...

shoulder issues scare the crap outta me. With TJ surgery, elbow injuries seem more like a rite of passage, but so many pitchers lose velocity and range of motion with shoulder injuries. I was actually surprised to see Sheets’ GS and IP numbers over his career. It shows why you ought to look at the numbers, because it seemed to me the guy had never had an injury free season. Looking at B-R, he was actually very durable before the ’05 season.

by etp_stl on Jan 4, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

can't believe I am saying this

since I am anti-home run (suggesting as I sometimes do that the HR mania {read – ’worship’} is part of the decline of "baseball") … but if 13 HRs is the low-ball for our ‘09 SS…my goodness!
How many did we get from the position last year? Almost shocking that Izturis started at SS a little more than two-thirds of the season and yet managed only 14 extra base hits. It wasn’t so much the lack of dingers (the ONE fluke he hit) but only THREE triples and TEN doubles ?? For someone with good wheels and over 400 ABs ?
I’m a big fan of contact hitters (low Ks, etc) but I don’t consider grounders without enough force to kill a worm… or little league flares off the bat as being “contact.”
Lastly, I like Forester’s litany of reasons to be optimistic about K Greene. As long as the strikeout streak and the inevitable slump that every player goes through a few times a season don’t MESH… I predict the fans will be ok with him

by the Tewk on Jan 4, 2009 1:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

We will have enough grounders

With Skip “Groundball to Second” Schumaker.

Then again, we’ll also have plenty of Ks. It will be fun to see Greene’s pop even if it is just an obsession by the fans (myself included) with the long ball.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 4, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your not joking about Schumaker

Schumaker had a ridiculous GB% this year of 57.7% good for 2nd highest in baseball;(lg Avg is 43%).

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 4, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hated seeing him bat with a guy on first

19 double plays, 2 less than Yadi I think.

I like Schumaker probably more than most, but agree completely that there were a lot of grounders to 2nd.

by phesto on Jan 4, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am pretty sure we got 1 HR from the SS position last year

Izturis’ HR in San Diego on May 19th.
There was almost a second one July 20th against San Diego at Busch. Miles started the game at SS , but went to 2B in the top of the 9th in a double switch, he then homered in the bottom of the 9th. Probably the most memorable at bat in Miles’ career.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 4, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Greene will likely be Izturis with pop

I’d rather have Greene for a single year with the chance of 20 homers and a few more doubles. Greene ought to be a minor upgrade. But, I, too, fear that his relentless hacking and aversion to walking will grow frustrating quickly.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 4, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's hope the Greene of 2008 doesn't show up

I’m all for Greene in place of Izturis, because Greene has so much higher upside offensively and he has been very good as a fielder in the past.

However, I’m hoping, like everyone else here, that the Greene that shows up is not the guy by that name in 2008. Has anyone looked closely yet at how much worse Greene actually was on the road last year, away from Petco? There seems to be this assumption that he’ll hit better this year because he won’t have to play in such a poor hitter’s park as the one in San Diego. But look at the actuality in 2008:

OBP .291 at home, .225 away (Izturis was .328 at Busch,H, 311 away)
SLG .360 at home, .317 away (Izturis was .321 at Busch, .297 away)

If Greene hits away from Petco anything like he did in 2008, he’ll actually be worse than Izturis was last year, especially considering that Izturis struck out only 26 times in 414 AB’s vs. 100 times for Greene in 389 AB’s (Is there an easily available compilation of how many bases were advanced by men on base when each player was at bat?). Izturis also stole 24 bases in 30 attempts, vs. 5 for Greene in 6 attempts.

And, of course, Izturis was far better defensively last year than Greene:
   
12.5 UZR/150 for Izturis

-9.3 UZR/150 for Greene

I hope our optimistic projections for Greene in 2009 come true, but I am concerned about Greene’s home-away splits last year and the severe decline in his fielding…..

by CardsWin on Jan 4, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm hoping

it was just Petco psychosis.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 4, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am just hoping he hits like he has against the Cards

It couldn’t just be all in my head that he owned them. I need to figure out where to find those stats.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 4, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's hope not

.239/.266/.409 in 94 PA’s against the cards.

I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I'm trying to not be selfish about it, but to use it, OK? Jealousy will get you nowhere!

by Dave Barry on Jan 4, 2009 9:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow

it seems like he hit a lot better

now find the splits for the games I watched

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 4, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and are those on BR?

I could only find his stats vs current Cards on there.

A .328 .349 .590 line looked much better.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 4, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They're on BR

Here it is for his career

I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I'm trying to not be selfish about it, but to use it, OK? Jealousy will get you nowhere!

by Dave Barry on Jan 4, 2009 10:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks, I could never find them before

Career splits. I will have to remember that

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 5, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yup, just one

and it just barely made it out…

In fact, we haven’t even had 13 HR’s at SS in the last three years combined. even if you add 2006, 2007 and 2008 together, it’s only 12.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 4, 2009 6:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Go figure that Iz2's ONE homer happened in Petco

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 4, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I just had a brilliant idea

Okay, maybe just brilliant for a Sunday morning. Okay, Sunday early afternoon…

Anyway. I did that post a couple weeks back on projecting the Cards’ win totals for 2009 with Marcel, Bill James, and my own projections. I think that I will do another projection with our VEB data once we’ve gotten through the meat of our projections. I think it could be fun to see our community forecast on the win total based on individual player performance. Would that be of interest to anyone? If not, I’ll save my time since it takes a while.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 4, 2009 2:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

do it

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 4, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that sounds really cool to me

although, if we don’t sign anyone else, or trade from the outfield, it might be rather difficult to project what we’ll expect from the OF, since that will be very very complicated.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 4, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

this is a great idea

godfather. You should create a fanpost for it as soon as you’re ready. This is exactly what I would hope to get from our fanposts. I think our great community would reward you well for your hard work.

by chuckb on Jan 4, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Will we do pitching

projections as well? Those are, obviously, very important. I guess I’ll just wait a few weeks and if there are some numbers I still need I’ll do a fanpost asking for predictions that I’m missing.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 4, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't it seem like ...

Greene’s power numbers should be considerably better moving away from a division with so many pitchers’ parks to a division with Wrigley, the Juice Box, and that thing in Cincinnati? While Busch isn’t exactly an hitters’ park, but it is definitely more fair than Petco. Since Colorado found the humidor, the NL West seems to be the only division that doesn’t have a couple of band-boxes to hit in.

What do you guys think?

by etp_stl on Jan 4, 2009 2:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Really.

Chase dimensions

Left Field – 330 ft / 101 m
Left-Center – 374 ft / 114 m
Left-Center (deep) – 413 ft / 126 m
Center Field – 407 ft / 124 m
Right-Center (deep) – 413 ft / 126 m
Right-Center – 374 ft / 114 m
Right Field – 334 ft / 102 m

Busch III dimensions

Left Field — 336 ft / 102.5 m
Left Center Field — 375 ft / 114 m
Center Field — 400 ft / 122 m
Right Center Field — 375 ft / 114 m
Right Field — 335 ft / 102 m3

Petco dimensions

Left Field Line – 334 ft / 101.8 m
Left Field – 367 ft / 111.9 m
Left Field Alley – 402 ft / 122.5 m
Center Field – 396 ft / 120.7 m
Right Field Alley – 402 ft / 122.5 m
Right Field – 382 ft / 116.4 m
Right Field Line – 322 ft / 98.1 m

Does Chase have some wind or altitude advantage to make it a big hitters’ park?

by etp_stl on Jan 4, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dimension similarities are interesting

But, Park Factor has Chase being very offensive-friendly. In fact, in 2008, Chase was more offense-friendly than Coors.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 4, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's pretty interesting.

That would indicate that the NL West actually had 3/5 ballparks in the top 11 hitters’ parks compared to the NL Central which has 3/6 ballparks in the top 10 pitchers’ parks. So, much for that helping Greene out. Thanks for pointing me to that metric.

by etp_stl on Jan 4, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,

but the original discussion was about power numbers. In 2008, GAB (Cin) was 4th most friendly for HRs, Wrigley was 7th, and Minute Maid was 8th. SF(13th) , LA (24th), and SD (30th) were all below average for HRs. Petco suppressed HRs by 25.7%.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 4, 2009 8:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

2Bs and 3Bs seem to be pretty prevalent out there, though.

Chavez Ravine and Petco are both offensive holes, but apparently Busch III and Miller are to some extent also. Coors, AT&T, and Chase all seem to be pretty good for XBHs.

by etp_stl on Jan 4, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think TucsonRoyal's post about natural effects

is a good read, but I don’t agree with how he handles humidity. He only looks at the affect on humidity in relation to affecting ball flight and completely ignores the effect of humidity on the baseball. Lack of humidity and a much harder than average baseball is one reason why Chase is such a good hitter’s park.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 4, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think I like the way you describe GAB

that thing in Cincinnati

can we get the announcers to start using that?

Oh, and it definitely couldn’t hurt Greene.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 4, 2009 2:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i like great american small park

Is it weird that I would rather the payroll be more like the Marlins than the Yankees?

by ForesterShane on Jan 4, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like how the reply button always screws me

when I am trying to reply to a post at the bottom of the page. For some reason my eyes must think that I have to use the post a comment box instead of the reply one

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 4, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

alcohol is a hell of a drug

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 4, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or Small American Ballpark?

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 4, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that

while looking at his career numbers, and the expert projections, that we are all salivating over that 2007 season… which really isn’t that far away. unfortunately, Greene’s atrocious 2008 is in between there. if we look at his two jekyl and hyde seasons, which are the most recent, we have:

AB: 500 H: 119 HR: 19 RBI: 66 AVG: .238 OBP: .276 SLG: .404

I can deal with that as a fan… well, that OBP is still frightening.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 4, 2009 2:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

What frightens me...

is Tony will decide to bat him 2nd a lot. Because he has some “pop” in his bat and he likes that in the #2 spot.

Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)

by DiscoJer on Jan 4, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no, his OBP isn’t high enough. Probably 6th.

2nd actually isn’t that bad of a spot if you believe that he’ll get more strikes and better pitches in front of Albert.

However, I’ll contend that the best protection for Albert is people on base when he’s up to bat, and Greene just wouldn’t qualify

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 4, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i think he has to be 6th

Yaddi has to be 7th, you can’t have that molina speed clogging up stuff, and kenedy has to bat 9th ( i hope). Maybe if Rasmus/skip/lud are in the OF the 2 spot could open up for greene, but I think Ankiel needs to stay in the 2 spot if he is the lineup.

Is it weird that I would rather the payroll be more like the Marlins than the Yankees?

by ForesterShane on Jan 4, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh crap

I forgot that Kennedy should be 9th; as we all know, the lineup will change 150 times

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 4, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Cardinals have a lineup?

I wasn’t aware of this phenomenon.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 4, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Priceless!

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 4, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Molina sixth

Last year he batted sixth 63 times and seventh 42 times (and fifth 9 times).
La Russa seems to prefer a speedier guy hitting in front of the pitcher, presumably because he’s easier to advance on the sac bunt.

Until Spicoli displays some power on a consistent basis I expect to see him batting seventh most of the time.

My guess as of now would be:
1. Schumaker/Rasmus
2. Glaus
3. Pujols
4. Ludwick
5. Ankiel
6. Molina
7. Greene
8. Sheets
9. Kennedy

I put Glaus second because otherwise there would be all right-handed hitters batting third through seventh, and it just doesn’t look right for a La Russa lineup.
Kennedy ninth doesn’t look very good (he only batted there 14 times last year) but I think Greene’s power potential keeps him seventh and leaves only the nine spot for Kennedy.

Also, I wonder who will lead off if Skip isn’t a regular starter (i.e. if Rasmus replaces him). Is Rasmus ready to lead off? Who do you put there against left-handed pitchers? Barton may be needed on this team for that reason alone, unless Miles’ replacement can get on base against LHP.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Jan 4, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Anyone think

that TLR may give up the idea of batting the pitcher 8th with Greene in the lineup?

There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 5, 2009 1:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

and why he should bat 4th. either leads off or bats with men on. the number of at bats lost to this approach over the season is miserly small.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 4, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that worries me too, but

I remember that TLR refused to bat Royce Clayton at 1 or 2, even though RC begged him to do it. I remember TLR being quoted in the paper that Clayton’s low OBPs were going to keep him away from the top of the lineup. And Greene’s likely to be even more of an OBP black hole than Clayton was. OTOH, he does have 100 points of slugging on Clayton, so I can’t be 100 percent confident.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 4, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if you would all listent to the interview i posted in the Hot Stove catch all thread

you’ll hear Tony saying he thinks Green is a 6th,7th place hitter. of course i could be totally wrong, but i swear i heard him say that. right after he was talking about huey lewis & the news

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 4, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't remember him saying that

but I had the football game on at the same time. thanks for posting those btw, dewitt sounded pretty reasonable, when he wasn’t whispering

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 4, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

something useful on a hotstove thread?

I’ll listen, haven’t been on them much.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 4, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i dont konw how useful they are

but i thought it was worth a listen. i didn’t know where else to put them so that’s why i stuck them there. Tony & Bill Dewitt have a lot to say, sure they were lobbed softball questions, but they do have a lot to say.

chitown that’s really funny how he let’s the phone go & none can hear him. he’s like everyone’s grandpa in that aspect. he has no idea he does it.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 4, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

I’m not so sure we have made that much of an upgrade at SS…. we go from Izturis’ decent OBP but no power to power and no OBP

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 4, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Izturis vs. Greene

Izturis’ career OBP is worse than Greene’s (just barely – .299 vs. .304). Last year Izturis’ OBP was .319, which seems to be about what we as a group expect from Greene this year. So we don’t really lose anything there. And of course Greene slugs about 100 points higher (even during his terrible season last year his SLG was better than Izturis’ 2008 and career SLG).

by BTown Birds fan on Jan 4, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

good point

I was thinking izturis’ obp was higher than that

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 4, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We went from a guy

with a career OPS+ of 67 to a guy with a career OPS+ of 95. Unless Khalil’s defense reeks, he will be a very nice upgrade. If you park adjust his home numbers over the last three years and use his actual road numbers it comes up to .251/.305/.454/.758 with 23 HRs (averaged for 600 PAs). That OPS is .130 higher than Izturis.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 4, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

That looks pretty darn good to me. I’ll take that kind of production from a SS any day.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 4, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I vaguely recall that actually

I think TLR pays more attention to OBP than many of us give him credit. God that was a horrible sentence.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 4, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

I think in that interview gdm posted he mentioned that

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 4, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So what's this team look like right now

C Molina 3.25
1B Albert 16
2B Kennedy 4
SS Greene 6.5
3B Glaus 11.25
LF Mather/Schumaker 800k
CF Ankiel ~3 mil?
RF Ludwick ~3 mil?

#1. Waino 2.6
#2. Lohse 8.3
#3. Wellemeyer 1.5
#4. Pinata 7.5
#5. Carpenter/ReplacementLevelSixStarter 14

CL Motte/Perez 400k
Setup Motte/Perez/Kinney 800k
LR Franklin/Thompson 3
LOOGY Miller/NeedALefty 1.5

Bench
LaRue 1
Barton 400k
Barden 400k
Duncan? 400k

By my rough count that’s ~90 mil, they need a lefty and a SP in all reality. That’s a fairly weak rotation, a good offense and really good defense. Derek Lowe would make such a big difference to this team…

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 4, 2009 11:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Count me in

On the Lowe bandwagon

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 4, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't believe we only pay Albert 16 Mil

That still seems like a steal.

I’m still in favor of trading Ankiel for a SP rather than a free agent signing (I’m also in favor of Pinerio and maybe Franklin falling down the hole at the mystery spot), but honestly wouldn’t be upset if that’s the team on the field to start ’09. Better than last years.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Jan 4, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we still need a 2B

the reason Tony is so upset about losing Miles is that he is now stuck with a player he has had two spats with and has publicly said he doesn’t want to play for him anymore (Kennedy).

Tony is now stuck with Adam Kennedy and Tony doesn’t like being stuck. They’ll deal Kennedy, even if it is for a bag of marbles…I’d bet almost anything on it.

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 5, 2009 12:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not if they have to eat his salary they won't

otherwise he’d be in Phoenix & Floppy would still be a Cardinal.

i am in complete agreement with you that Tony is pissed off AK is still around. i see him either biting the bullet & playing him 150 times , or playing him for a month, then benching him for the rest of the season & try to force MO’s hand. again.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 5, 2009 12:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have a feeling they'll find a team

that has a LOOGY or some such that has a bad $4 M contract and try to swap Kennedy for said player, much like what the Cubs did with Jason Marquis.

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 5, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

even at $16/yr??

link That rate makes me a bit skittish.

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Jan 5, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Motte a C+ really?

I understand he doesn’t have secondary stuff, but there’s a difference between “liking the strikeouts” and leading the entire minor leagues in K/9—-and doing it with a 100 mph fastball not a sneaky changeup. How is he not a B/B-

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 5, 2009 1:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He is still very young as a pitcher also

He had a ridiculous season in AAA last year in terms of strikeouts. His ERA overall was 3.24 but he was incredibly unlucky as he had a .426. His FIP was 2.29. It’s hard to argue with the results even though he doesn’t have a good slider. A 100mph fastball is almost unhittable at any level, especially when Motte has such good command.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Start posting about the Cardinals »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Avatar_small
How to EASILY make tables for Fanposts
1753738656_110919ebe9_o_small
2010 Hot Stove Post #1: CHONE hitter projections

Recent FanPosts

Arch_small
Number 15
Small
Some thoughts on Holliday (and potential replacements)
Small
Ok let me try this again...
Knights-09_small
Disenchanted Blue Jays Fan Looking For A New Team
Painterlance_small
The Holliday Dilemma (Rocks Fan Perpsective)
375830-r1-025-11_011_small
Anybody read Bob Gibson's new book yet?
Flanders_small
Yadi2first
Small
40 Man Question..

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Jack_benny_small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bender1_small azruavatar

Adam1_small chuckb

Kid-a-bear_small the red baron