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Chris Carpenter Closer?

No surprise: Tony LaRussa still doesn't want to use one of our youngsters as a closer.  Now that we have lost our "top priority" Fuentes to the Angels, TLR is considering going on to plan B. Use Chris Carpenter as the closer.  I think that we can all agree that this looks like a terrible idea.  Our right-handed relief core is arguably the deepest part of our the team and the starting pitching is by far the weakest part.  So how would moving our best starter from an already thin rotation to an area of strength make any sense?

I have one scenario in which this could benefit us.  DeWitt has said that he would be wiling to sign an expensive player if it would help our team.  If we were to move Carp to the bullpen than that might force management to go for Ben Sheets which we all agree is an excellent idea.  Now if we were to sign Sheets than we would be in the same situation as we are now.  A health risk at the top of the rotation followed by Wainright, Wellemyer, Lohse and Piniero.  But what if Carp sucked as a closer, or if TLR decided to trust one of our young guys.  Then Carp would move back to the rotation and we would have a very good rotation with Piniero moving to the bullpen to be the swingman.  

Now we could have the same situation if management decided to just try and sign Ben Sheets right now.  But I don't see that happening unless we are forced to look for an ace.  So moving Carp to the bullpen might be a blessing in disguise, but only if it forced us to sign Sheets.    

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Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

"More La Russa: (1) He doesn’t believe it’s smart to count on Chris Carpenter returning to full health to start 30 or more games in ‘09; (2) TLR would consider using Carpenter as the closer if that’s best for Carpenter; (3) TLR isn’t thrilled with the idea of moving young reliever Kyle McClellan into the rotation unless the bullpen is reinforced with the addition of a quality reliever. "

Is what was said.

How does that translate into: “TLR is considering going on to plan B. Use Chris Carpenter as the closer.”

Also with a rotation of Sheets, Carp or both. Wainright is the ace.

No we shouldn’t count on Carp, yes we should get Sheets, but should be quite independent of each other.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 4, 2009 3:47 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree we should get Sheets regardless

But because the rotation could be filled out with a back of the rotation starter like Randy Wolf or Oliver Perez, I don’t see management signing another ace unless Carp is going to be in the bullpen. Also, when healthy, Sheets and Carp are true aces. Wainright has shown tremendous improvement over the course of the last 2 years and I think he will be an ace soon, but right now Carp and Sheets are better pitchers.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 4, 2009 4:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We’re arguing semantics, which wasn’t my intention.

However if Adam didn’t have a fluke injury last year he would have been at least in the Cy Young “talks”.

His year, while shortened, rivaled Carps two monster years before going down in my opinion. Sheets was great last year and a monster in ’04, but above average in between.

For me, if you add in injury concerns (I don’t feel as if Adam’s is a concern, more as a fluke) then I would say Adam is for sure the staff ace. However, I wouldn’t complain if Carp was healthy enough for opening day and started that day.

All of that being said, to me Carp doesn’t exist. Period. We need another starter and I feel Sheets is that guy until someone else better comes along. If someone named Chris Carpenter decided to get off and stay off the DL and force Joel into the longman role, I’ll let that happen.

The thing is if we get Sheets/“Better” then all Carp has to do is be better than Joel to make us an improved team. Now that’s upside.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 4, 2009 8:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't want to argue semantics either

but this is how I look at anyone who the Cardinals would want to anoint as an ace: if the ace pitches against another team’s ace in the playoffs would I think we had the advantage? I don’t think Waino is better than Santana, Webb, Peavy, Hamels, etc. I think a healthy Carp is at least equal to all those guys. Adam happens to be our best pitcher right now that we can count on, but I think he falls short of being considered an ace on a playoff team. Maybe his 2009 will prove me wrong.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 4, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough.

I’m considering health, but should we get to October ball and Carp is healthy, I’ll change my tune

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 4, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if we signed Sheets

he’d be the ace imo

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 4, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Sheets would be #2

Wagonmaker gets the opening day nod, Sheets is #2 due to injury risk/matchups.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jan 5, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right now

Wainright is the better pitcher. We have no idea what to get from Carpenter…for the rest of his career. Sheets is obviously hit or miss depending on health. If he is ready to go he is a #1 with Wainright as #2. Waino is 27. If he is not an ace is ’09, then when?

by Beware the Molinas on Jan 4, 2009 4:50 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, Waino is 6-7 years younger than Carp, 3 years younger than Sheets. The kid is just now running into his prime. Bliss.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 4, 2009 8:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sheets Soap Box

judging from Mo’s recent comments in the PD, as well as his actions behavior thus far in FA bidding, I think he is extremely reluctant to offer any pitcher 3 years or more. Now, DeWitt was quoted as saying that an expensive player, if an immediate and great fit would become available at the right price, he would consider adding. I don’t want to misinterpret those words on account of my optimism, but I personally feel that Sheets fits.

From the tealeaves of what the pundits are saying sheets’ interest thus far has generated, the only numbers I’ve seen were 2 years/30million and that was from the yanks. Now, with 423M committed, I doubt that money is available still. Rangers are interested, and I’m sure the Brewers will see what they can do. I also could see them cutting bait and taking two draft picks, as it’s clear they are very disappointed by not getting their first rounder from the Yanks due to the Teixiera signing.

My hope is we can grab him at 2years/24/26 million and have high upside/high impact with the downside being minimal. We’ll get one year of that back when Glaus leaves, we’ll position ourselves for a Type A FA two years from now, and Santa and Ank could give us ones next year as well. That obviously is if MO learns that you don’t get picks unless you offer arbitration. Hopefully markets will change a bit, and the FO won’t be so reluctant to enter calculated risks.

I’d love to see Waino and Sheets as 1-2, followed by Carp, Lohse, Wellemeyer, and Piniero, giving Boggs another year to develop, Garcia a year to get healthy, and our rotation a competitive look.

Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!

by timmycardinals on Jan 4, 2009 9:14 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Mr. DeWitt was apparently just paying lip service.

Here are his comments to Bernie recently.

It sounds like he thinks Carpenter is in the rotation until proven otherwise, and that NO team would try to replace a Chris Carpenter.

It seems like LaRussa and Duncan are being realistic, but DeWitt has learned nothing from relying on the “they’ll be okay”, pollyanna outlook.

by etp_stl on Jan 4, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if management would only...

pay ME a measly $1,000-, or even just a few hundred, they could sign Sheets for any amount at all and he’d be worth it. The stipulation is I would have to watch (on TV) every time Sheets takes the mound.
Because, every time I see that guy he is awesome… mean as a snake with filthy stuff

by the Tewk on Jan 4, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't it be funny if...

The Yankees also signed Ben Sheets, and the Brewers only received a 4th Round pick for him?

by Czechguardsman on Jan 6, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it's a horrible idea...sorry

I think that some people’s arms work for 100+ pitches in 30+ starts a year…and some people’s arms are more suited towards lower pitch counts more often. Carp’s arm has nearly fallen off doing it the other way…why not try it this way?

by stlfan on Jan 4, 2009 11:17 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

For future reference,

His name is Adam Wainwright. 2 Ws.

I would be okay with him in the ‘pen for a month or two, but I think if he can pitch he needs to start if at all possible. The point of doing it for the first couple of months would be to help him keep the IP total down. This way, he’d still be able to start in October.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 4, 2009 11:33 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

This isn't a terrible idea at all

we have no idea about what we’re going to get from carp. He’s coming off of yet another surgery. Why not ease him back into pitching with a bullpen role rather than force him to stretch it out as a starter. I wish Tony would have just announced him as the closer last season while he was still rehabbing.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 4, 2009 11:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

My only worry is taking him from a pitching role where he should know how his arm reacts

to one where he doesn’t. I don’t think the stress of relieving or starting is inherently more on a pitcher but it is intrinsically different.

by azruavatar on Jan 4, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that is exactly correct

I wouldn’t expect him to be available as often as we will hopefully need a closer. At best, he would likely be a member of a closer committee. And we know TLR wants defined roles.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 4, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It is different,

but that doesn’t have to be a bad thing. Kerry Wood says he feels much healthier as a closer than as a starter. He feels good and wants to pitch every day. Will it work for Carp? I have no idea but I doubt he’s as healthy as Kerry Wood.

by spants on Jan 4, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think so

I would much rather have Carpenter in the rotation than in the bullpen. I would also like to see McClellan in the rotation but we would need to sign some relievers (Joe Beimel and Russ Springer). I’m not sure that the Cardinals would sign Sheets. We would get a questionable player with injuries and send our number one draft pick to the Brewers. I am not a fan of giving the Brewers even more 1st round draft picks. They’ll probably get one for Sheets anyway but at least we’ll still have ours.

by waino on Jan 4, 2009 12:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't feel comfortable counting on Chris Carpenter for anything just yet.

They will just have to see how he responds to the latest surgery when he starts throwing again.

The idea of switching him to closer isn’t completely without merit. You all remember Kerry Wood? He had numerous rehabs from numerous injuries. Until the futility of it all set in-and he realized he could go about 50 pitches before everything started hurting again. Thus the idea of Kerry Wood, Closer was born. I’d say it worked out pretty well for Wood and the Cubs in 2008.

I’d rather Carpenter start-he’s one of the best when he’s out there. But if he’s going to keep breaking down as a starter, they may have to be creative in how the use him. He’s on the payroll for several more years.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jan 4, 2009 12:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think that is a fine point, Jill

If this is the only way to get Carp on the field consistently, then so be it. It’s clearly not ideal, but it’s just how things are at this point. We’ll just have to see.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 4, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Eckersley, Wood

I don’t have any stats to back it up but it does seem that starters have more injuries than relievers. Smoltz returned to start after 3 full seasons as a closer and was healthy and effective at both. Eck, of course, never returned to starting but it would have been crazy to ask him to. If Carp can contribute in either role it is a huge boost to our pitching staff.

by BustaCard on Jan 5, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Salary Point is key

As Jill said, Carp’s on the payroll for several more years. Mgmt might be looking at how to get something productive for each of the next three years. Carp health is at the point where mgmt has to put together a three year plan, developing some approach which results in Carp being a prodcutive Cardinal.

by ubeddie on Jan 4, 2009 8:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Carp as closer is only a good idea

if that is the most demanding role he can handle. If he isn’t durable enough to start he would probably only be able to be a part-time closer anyway.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 4, 2009 12:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

well put giveml

I don’t think that came across in my post above, but I whole-heartedly agree to that.

by stlfan on Jan 5, 2009 8:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

HAHA

Rec’d

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 4, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching-related turrets.

It could affect someone you love.

by etp_stl on Jan 4, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tourette's

A turret is a tower.

by spants on Jan 4, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't think that sounded right.

But, the damned internet screwed me again. That spelling is what came up through google. Sorry for the laziness.

by etp_stl on Jan 4, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

With your spelling,

I had this image of a pitcher growing weird spiky lumps on his pitching arm.

by spants on Jan 4, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow, nicely done

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 4, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Benny Sheets!

sign him

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 4, 2009 2:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

since you didn't ask

sheets is a risk and i’m sure he and his agent realize the relatively low offer form the yanks and little activity otherwise reflect his medical situation. if so, then he has to realize that his best chance to make a good salary and earn it is to take an incentive laden deal. for the cards, i’d say offer the guy 2 years at 10M plus a performance based option for a third year. the 10M base could be structured on innings to run up to 15M. if he is really confident in his own health, why not?
once that is done, then resign springer as closer and make mac the set up man and the prez is the new springer/fireman.
motte closes for memphis

the prez and kinney are back-ups for all roles and this will be necessary because russ won’t pitch effectively every day or even every other day. somehow we need to get our best pitchers on the 25 man list. if they need time to get back to playing shape, so be it.

and last, no signing type A free agents on one year deals (aka hoffman). much too expensive.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 4, 2009 5:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

sounds like we'll be waiting to see if anyone signs sheets

then if not, we sign him on our terms

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 4, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the problem for Mo trying to pull a "Lohse"

on Ben Sheets is that Ben Sheets isn’t Kyle Lohse. Medical reports or no medical reports, Ben Sheets on his good days has the chance to be one of the Top 10 pitchers in baseball. Kyle Lohse on his best days are slightly above average as a Major League pitcher. Teams no that. Kyle Lohse sat on the shelf so long because Scott Boras was asking for the moon when the reality was that Kyle Lohse was still Kyle Lohse.

Yes, I know I used Kyle Lohse’s name an absurd amount of times but the point I’m trying to make is that if you really want that last lime green iPod nano at Sam’s Club that just price dropped to $99, don’t keep waiting it out until it’s $75. Someone else is going to be smart enough to realize that it’s already dropped $60 from 3 months ago and take the deal.

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 5, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i prefer hot pink myself

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 5, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If naming Carp the closer

makes LaRussa feel better about not signing a big name, then let him do it. Let Carp start the season as closer, until someone else proves themselves, and Carp is healthy enough to start in May or June. It will be cheaper for us in the long run!

Note: I think a one year Hoffman deal might make LaRussa happy without being too expensive.

by WyoCardsFan on Jan 4, 2009 5:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I love how Mo/Walt get/got zinged for signing.....

Guys with past injury history, or high injury risk guys, yet now those same posters want us to blow our wad on Sheets.

Sheets is going to get hurt over the next two years, probably to the point where he misses most of a season. I’d just about bank on that. How does that make sense for STL?

Hopefully we’ll land the Japanese SP this week, as that’ll help us out alot.

On another note, anybody else concerned that we weren’t able to move any of our excess OF’s yet? I mean, I don’t remember who has options left, but it seems like we’re going to be in a pretty hairy situation this year, especially if Rasmus starts in STL.

Ludwick
Ankiel
Rasmus
Skip
Mather

Barton
Duncan

Seems like I’m forgetting somebody else.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Jan 5, 2009 10:19 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree that we need to move an OF or two

If we don’t move some guys then there is no chance Raz will go north with the big club. Not that I think that fact alone mandates a trade, but it will make me scratch my head if a budget-conscious team doesn’t take adavantage of it’s best opportunity to catch low-cost lightning in a bottle. At a minimum, Raz will have a good OBP and play excellent defense. That’s enough to get started.

A question for the Skip lovers: any suggestions as to what his actual trade value might be? Could we get actual MLB talent or just prospects?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 5, 2009 10:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Japanese guy

is old, and he has an injury history. The last 2 seasons he threw 117 and 167 innings. Sheets threw 198 and 148. It would be good if he came cheap, but I’m not banking on that.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 5, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i am ignorant on the subject

what is the league average in Japan?

by Evilfrog on Jan 5, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know but I could look it up

League average what? Lol

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 5, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Inning pitched , I would assume

I don’t really know why that would matter. Even if the avg IP was at 75% of the MLB avg, it would have no affect on what his arm was used to. We need to find his career avg IP.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 5, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the link to his stats:

Kawakami

161, 162, 60, 145, 187, 53, 192, 180, 215, 167, and 117 are his IP totals from his 11 years in order (117 was last year).

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 5, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right now there are too many outfielders on the FA market

There is no way that we could get fair value for a guy like Ludwick or Ankiel when teams can just get Garrett Anderson or Adam Dunn without giving up anyone. I think it would be best to wait until midseason or before next year to trade away one of our player. Also I don’t know why people want Rasmus in the bigs right now. He will be 22 next year and the outfielders that we have on the major league roster (Luddy, Duncan, Mather, Barton, Schu, Ankiel) will probably be better than Raz next year. I would have Duncan, Luddy, Ankiel, Schu and Mather on the team next year with Raz and Barton in the minors.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Next Kerry Wood or Dennis Eckersley?

The Cubs did put Kerry Wood into the closer role because they felt his arm wouldn’t hold up as a starter. Using Carp as a closer would not be a crazy idea, if no other reliever steps up to do a credible job. Wood had a good season closing for the Cubs in 2008 with the Rick Ankiel game-winning hit on July 5 not withstanding. I was in St. Louis for that game.

Remember, when LaRussa was in Oakland, he tried Eckersley in the closer spot. Of course, that worked out great. I believe Eckersley’s not knowing when he would pitch as a reliever helped him get over his alcohol problem.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jan 5, 2009 12:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wow

didn’t know Eck was a drinker. Steroids, booze…what didn’t go on with those A’s?

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jan 5, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, they didn't.

1. Wood suddenly discovered he could throw without screaming in pain.

2. Cubs had no closer. Cubs were kinda desperate for a closer.

3. Wood volunteered. He told Hendry he’d try to close if the Cubs wanted him to.

The Cubs had planned to use him as a starter or not use him until he volunteered.

by sdrone on Jan 7, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And Wood isn't as an effecient starter as Carp

He had to throw 100 pitches to get through five, while Carp can can through 5 with 70 pitches. If TLR decides not to strain Carp and only pitch him 80-90 pitches, he could still go deep into games and it would minimize the risk on his arm.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 7, 2009 12:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

MLB channel

is scrolling this now. “TLR tells Associated Press that Carpenter could be closer.”

by sdrone on Jan 7, 2009 12:09 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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