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Around SBN: Now They've Screwed Spurs, UEFA Willing To Review Rule

Bench Jocketty-ing

I'm not sure when the Saturday post will be up, but in case it won't be, a discussion question culled from the comments of yesterday's post: What is this team's bench going to look like? What should it look like? Here's my pick, assuming as ever that La Russa takes twelve pitchers.

  • CF Skip Schumaker -- I'd rather take Barton north, because he bats right-handed and Schumaker might be more likely to return a left-handed reliever or an A-ball prospect, but so long as Skip is on the team he's going to make the opening day roster.
  • LF Chris Duncan -- same here; I think Joe Mather is more likely to be able to hit in April and May, and he might help the Cardinals by standing at third base, but Duncan is going to make the team if he's healthy, or even Isringhausen-healthy.
  • IF Joe Thurston -- He seems like a perfect La Russa pick; he plays second, and as a result can be stretched at short, which TLR loves to do, he's really fast, he bats left-handed... Spring Training cliche prediction: he gives you a lot of looks out there.
  • IF Tyler Greene -- here's my surprise pick. Thurston is going to stand at shortstop if he can make the team, but Greene is by all accounts a very rangy defender at short. He steals bases at a high percentage, in addition to that, and if he has a good spring the giant holes in his swing might not be so obvious. If the Cardinals don't pick up any more infielders—and I think they might—he could get a La Russa Put the Ball in Play dispensation.
  • C Jason LaRue -- To paraphrase Groucho Marx, "Hooray for Catcher LaRue, the African Inquirer—well somebody's gotta do it."

 

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so no Mather?

or is he starting? I think that if Duncan still is not hitting well they probably will have him start in AAA to work on it. I’d be very surprised if Tyler Greene makes the team

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 2:40 PM EST reply actions  

that

is my one nod to the wishful thinking side of my brain.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 31, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

ah

I’m not so sure that will happen. probably what will happen is that Ludwick will be the only guy who is even close to being a regular outfielder for the team. I think the other two spots will be platooned constantly, trying to give guys playing time, trying to keep Ankiel healthy, until the right opportunity comes to trade some of these guys. at least, that’s how I would handle it.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

If Rasmus, Ankiel and Ludwick are the starters

And Duncan and Schumacher are the bench OF, 4 out of the 5 are lefthanded. So is Thurston (which might prevent us from seeing him in CF, but I don’t know).

Sign someone who can pitch, then let this team play.

by IL and StL Fan on Jan 31, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I would have Barton, Mather, Ank, Rasmus platooning in remaining two spots

Ludwick the only regular player… that’s just me though, I’d do a cartwheel if that actually happens

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

If Rasmus is a slow starter...

how much slower will he be if he only plays every second or third day?

by SLOKev6 on Jan 31, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

who knows

he’ll be surrounded by other more experienced outfielders, so there’s no ideal situation there. should he be a starter right away, even though there are others that will outperform him at first? do we play him every other day, hoping that he’ll catch on? I think that we do, at least until a mid-season trade

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

buh-dum-chee

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Jan 31, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Sign Ty Wiggington on a cheap one year deal

Wiggington plays 2nd base, but can spot start at 3rd if necessary.

Kennedy and either Green or Brendan Ryan can be the backup infielders

www.salukihoops.com

by salukihoops on Jan 31, 2009 2:49 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

at this point

I think it’s fairer to say that Ty Wigginton hits, but can spot start in the field if necessary.

by DanUpBaby on Jan 31, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions   4 recs

Wigginton really only makes sense as a starter for the Twins, As, or Giants...

but the big market clubs are looking at him as a bench player. I’d love to bring Wiggy in on a cheap, one year deal, but my bet is he’ll go to SanFran on a 1 yr, 4 mil deal.

by Czechguardsman on Jan 31, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

why pay wiggie when we have Bombs?

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTHSHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 1, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Hopefully

Mather won’t strikeout as often as Wigginton.

BEN F*&*ING SHEETS!

by spants on Feb 1, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

it took me long enough didn't it?

i’m a slow learner

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTHSHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 1, 2009 1:59 AM EST up reply actions  

fixed?

and here i thought i was a fully functional dunk. boy do i have a long way to go.

BEN MOTHERHUSHYOURMOUTH SHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 1, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Its not a stretch for me to see Wigginton

put up a 30 HR season next year. He’s a good sleeper/breakout candidate. I know that the majority of the site knocks against Wiggy endlessly, but as long as we don’t overpay, I’d love to bring him in on the cheap. People argue that Allen Craig could do just as good of a job at 2nd, but the FO feels that his glove is putrid at 3rd. And to put Mather, Freese, or Schumaker at 2nd is hopeful wishing. They actually tried to put Schu at 2nd one ST and he can’t field a grounder.

Wigginton won’t win a gold glove but there is no reason to think he can’t be an adequate defender. At least, his 24 HRS and 80 RBIS vs. Kennedy’s .250/3/40 will make up for the little bit of lost range.

by Czechguardsman on Feb 1, 2009 2:00 AM EST up reply actions  

No

reason he can’t be an adequate fielder?

I guess if you’re not reasonable about it…

BEN F*&*ING SHEETS!

by spants on Feb 1, 2009 2:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I take that back where I said there is no reason he can't be an adequate fielder.

There is a good chance he could do a Jeff Kent impersonation at 2nd. But that’s a chance I’m willing to take if he comes cheap.

by Czechguardsman on Feb 1, 2009 2:40 AM EST up reply actions  

the only way wiggie hit's 30 HR's is if he goes back to HTown

or another band box. there’s no way in hell he hit’s anything close to 30 HR’s in Busch III

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTHSHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 1, 2009 2:06 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

He did get rather clutch

at the end of the season. not sure that any of our guys did.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2009 4:00 AM EST up reply actions  

When has the orginization said that Craig is putrid at third?

A defensive metric similar to UZR had Craig only 3 runs below average at 3rd and he is at the age when defense is at it’s best. Wiggington was only 1.6 runs below average last year, but his career UZR/150 is a mind boggling -14.8 at third. Wiggington is in his 30’s, well past his defensive prime, so the chances are that he will revert back to the dreadful fielder he has been in the past as apposed to the near average defender he was in 08.

Everything about Wiggington last year says he will regress next year. I personally would rather give Craig or Freese a shot to be our Ty than Wiggington.

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2009 3:01 AM EST up reply actions  

It's Ty Wiggington!!!!!

Are we really in that bad of shape that people are calling for us to sign Ty Wiggington, or for that matter, is our pitching staff that well of where people are calling for us to sign Ty Wiggington…. I REPEAT IT’S TY WIGGINGTON!!

by Retire51 on Feb 1, 2009 9:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

This “sign Ty Wigginton” faction on VEB is f*$@ing baffling.

BEN F*&*ING SHEETS!

by spants on Feb 1, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

it isn't like he is

the past participle of be + a printed signature for a book especially before it has been folded, cut, or bound !!!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

and....BEN SHEETS!!! **

**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)

by mattyfrommo on Feb 1, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I keep trying to

understand this comment. I have no idea…

BEN F*&*ING SHEETS!

by spants on Feb 1, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

it will come to you

if you try hard enough, and then you will call me a dork

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

and....BEN SHEETS!!! **

**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)

by mattyfrommo on Feb 1, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

see, I knew you would get there

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

and....BEN SHEETS!!! **

**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)

by mattyfrommo on Feb 1, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

DORK.

BEN F*&*ING SHEETS!

by spants on Feb 1, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

hey

no personal attacks!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

and....BEN SHEETS!!! **

**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)

by mattyfrommo on Feb 1, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

My attempt at what the bench would be:

OF Skip
OF/UTIL Mather
IF Thurston
IF Ryan
C LaRue

Assuming Freese is the starter at 3B to begin the year, then once Glaus is healthy, Ryan gets sent back down to AAA. I’d prefer Barton instead of Skip as well, but I agree with DanUp. As long as Skip’s a Cardinal, he plays with the big boys.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...Oh yeah, and by the way....BEN SHEETS!!!!!

by RunninRedbird on Jan 31, 2009 2:57 PM EST reply actions  

yup...

that’s my list too (assuming Rasmus is up – I actually think Rasmus will start in AAA, like Longoria last year). I like Greene but think he’ll start at AAA. Duncan may be on the DL or starting at 1B in the minors.

This list really gives flexibility on OF positions since Skippy and Mather can both play CF and are LH and RH respectively. The INFs are also LH and RH and Ryan can be a RH-hitting 2B option (and can play 3rd in a pinch).

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 31, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

And if Dunc's healthy...

then he stays and Thurston is gone. Thurston’s problem is that Kennedy hits LH’d as well and Ryan is probably better at SS (and can still back up Kennedy at 2B).

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 31, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

does ryan

have any options left?

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 31, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

I’m really worried that Skip is going to take away a ton of OF PAs from Mather and Rasmus. I also think Barton deserves a shot…

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 31, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

That is what I am most dissapointed in MO for

He hasn’t traded any OFer’s this off season. I don’t want to see Rasmus come up to be used as a 5th OFer. We need to get rid of 2 OFer’s to make some kind of room for the young guys. Maybe they are just waiting till Spring Training before trading them. Maybe their value is down too low right now with injury concerns and the market.

The market is full of LFer’s with pop and no glove. But their isn’t any good CFer’s out there and we have 2 decent ones in Skip and Ankiel.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 31, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

To me it's ironic

How one of our biggest problems is that we have a surplus. If only we had a couple of outfielders who are notably worse than the others, the decisions would be easy. As it is, we have 7 solid major league outfielders (assuming Duncan is healthy). All of these guys could probably be starting outfielders if we didn’t have so many. It does us no good to have all 7, and we aren’t ever going to get full value for any of them because they all have to share playing time.

If only we had this problem with starting pitchers…

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 31, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

jason stark said yesterday morning he's shocked at how poorly the Cards marketed their OF's

he said yes the markets down & there’s a lot of good free agents OF’s out there, but it’s partially their fault they have not been able to trade anyone. and i agree. they have an obvious strength & have not done anything to capitalize on it. it’s the biggest mistake of the off season so far.

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTH SHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 31, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

you mean like neglecting to play them in september so they got more major league

at bats and instead playing adam kennedy and brendan ryan and aaron miles in the OF?

sounds fair.

by tom s. on Jan 31, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

well

Mather and Ank were hurt, and I think maybe Barton was the only guy who got shafted there, but he was also coming off an injury

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Stav Infection sat on the bench all of September. probably for kicking some cats

and Crab Man was shafted like you said.

but yeah, that was a joke of epic proportions.

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTH SHEETS


ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 31, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

small sample size!!!!

heh, sorry. couldn’t resist.

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTH SHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 31, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

let's see...

ludwick
rasmus
ankiel
mather
schumaker
barton
duncan
daryl jones
jon jay
jon edwards
shane peterson
tyler henley
shane robinson
tommy pham
nick stavinoha
…looks like i got him around # 15 on my favorite list

I hate winter!!!!

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 31, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's mine

Ludwick
Ankiel
Mather
Barton
Rasmus
Duncan
Schumaker
Jon Jay
Daryl Jones
don’t know all those other guys
Stav

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

oh wait

I’ve actually seen Pham play for the River Bandits last summer

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Trade Barton to the M's for Washburn. The M's eat Washburn's salary.

Washburn competes with Piniero for the 5th spot, and either Piniero becomes the longman or Washburn becomes a loogy.

Not the most ambitious move but could be viable
  
Thoughts….

by Czechguardsman on Jan 31, 2009 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

we have our long man in PK

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTHSHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 1, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm sorry but

WORST IDEA EVER. Washburn is so wash up that he couldn’t strikeout Ryan Howard. Barton has some legitamite potential and he should be playing instead of Skip.

Now Skip for Wasburn wouldn’t be as bad if they ate ALL of his salary.

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

really?

This guy seemed to think that Washburn would be a good idea for our rotation. No offense, but I’ll have to go with his list of facts over your opinion on Washburn.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Feb 1, 2009 12:56 AM EST up reply actions  

I wasn't knocking on Washburn so much

Just the idea of trading Barton, who I love, is not a good. We could probably get Washburn for nothing if we ate half of his salary, so I don’t know why we would trade away a valuable major leaguer for him.

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2009 1:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Lets face it....

With the glut and overabundance of Outfielders in the Major Leagues right now, a guy like Barton or Schumaker is just not going to bring back a big haul. If either of those guys was a middle infielder, than by all means. A lot of OFs who might have success in the Majors on alot of teams are stuck hopelessly in AAA right now because there are just too many guys ahead of them.

Since Barton really can’t play CF, and we have several more promising long term options, why not move him for a 5th starter/LOOGY. Washburn is really not as bad as his stats appear at 1st glance.

Does anyone really think that Barton has a future as an everyday OF on this team? I really don’t, but perhaps others do. Its difficult for me to say without laughing that Barton could be the everyday RF/LF in 2010 when I can name about 10 more likely and better options.

by Czechguardsman on Feb 1, 2009 1:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I think that Barton has more value to the club

than he will bring back in a trade. If a guy like Barton can only bring back someone crappy, than he should stay on the team to at least give us some depth.

IMO, I think Barton SHOULD be starting. He has great defense, good speed and very good OBP abilities. In 2010, my OF would be Barton in left, Colby in center, Luddy in right.

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2009 2:03 AM EST up reply actions  

I would never say dump a guy just for the sake of it. Barton is a decent player.

But he could become a liability if he starts blocking someone better.

What about Schumaker/Barton + someone to the Jays for Jesse Carlson?

by Czechguardsman on Feb 1, 2009 2:38 AM EST up reply actions  

That would be nice

But the Jays have a good, young OF and they wouldn’t have much need for Schu/Barton. The Mets are a team that could be a good fit. They are looking for a stopgap in left until Fernando Martinez is ready. Schu could be that guy. He would fit nicely into the #2 hole in there lineup.

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2009 2:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm listening to And Justice For All

while reading this mini thread… and it seems much more epic than it actually is… but I kind of think that’s awesome.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2009 4:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Barton for Washburn

is not that bad of an idea, but I wouldn’t like it… especially when Barton emerges as the next McGee

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2009 4:03 AM EST up reply actions  

the Mariners

reportedly wouldn’t trade Washburn for Matsui because they didn’t want to take on the extra 2.65M that Matsui makes over Washburn.

Barton is not good enough that the Mariners would eat almost all of Washburn’s salary to get him. I have to think if you make a trade for Washburn the bidding starts with one very cost-controlled CF. That is the only type of player they would eat that kind of contract for.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

and....BEN SHEETS!!! **

**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)

by mattyfrommo on Feb 1, 2009 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

yup

indeed, it is the biggest mistake of the offseason; unless no one really wants them/are trying to take advantage of the situation

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think its fair to call it poor marketing...

I think its more likely a reluctance to give up Rasmus/Ankiel/Ludwick….I’m sure plenty of conversations have been had about our OF’s…its just that those are the 3 that everyone wants. All 7 are VERY VERY affordable for any team. so if your a gm and your calling the cards about an OF its gonna be about those top 3

I hate winter!!!!

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 31, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

who wouldn't want Skippy or Joey Bombs?

MO said in the past Bombs was the 1st guy everyone asked about after Colby. you could be right, but i think there’s more to it. i’m not totally throwing MO under the bus, but he could have & should have done more to move someone by now.

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTH SHEETS


ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 31, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I think so

I think people want to see if Duncan’s back and Hernia are ok. They want to see if Ankiel’s Hernia is better also. I think if they have a hot start in spring they will be traded.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 31, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

could be. but i doubt it considering his dad & Tony

and if he is healthy, dude is the poor man’s Adam Dunn. like i said, i think there’s a lot of reasons why no OF’s have been moved. and not all of it is MO’s, but he does have to take some of the blame.

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTH SHEETS


ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 31, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I think they genuinely

like Barton, but want to give him an assload of playing time in AAA….I think they are content to have the top 5 on the roster with Barton as their emergency backup in AAA and moving duncan wants he can prove that he’s worth something/anything

I hate winter!!!!

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 31, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I think if they genuinely liked Barton...

he would have gotten more playing time at the end of last year.

Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)

by DiscoJer on Jan 31, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

that was the most aggravating part of last season

it didn’t really make much sense, unless they were really worried about the guy and his knee, and the more recent injury

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

tlr

threw a hissy fit, simple as that. hardhead to the point self abusive (team-wise) is an understatement.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 31, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

yes...

I was disappointed that we didn’t see Miguel Cairo get a few more starts at first base.
Even tho he was on another team, we could have swung some kind of late-season deal…c’mon.

by the Tewk on Jan 31, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe, but it's still early...

…and maybe Mo has known for a while about Glaus’ injury and is worried that he could be out for longer than what’s being said…and worried too that no one will fill in decently at third…I agree we’d still need a front line starting pitcher much more, but if you have two needs, you might just want to wait to see how ST pans out…not just for us but for everyone else… I also wonder if Mo and the owners are keeping their financial powder dry so as to be serious about keeping Albert down the line…which could be bad for this season if ANY one of the pitchers gets hurt, as is likely…

by SLOKev6 on Jan 31, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Mo

I think we’re falling into the trap overvaluing our players. Duncan had no trade value this winter. Barton and Schumaker are solid 4th OF, maybe starters on a sub 500 team. Mather was 26 years old in AAA this year and put up bad numbers in his pro debut (in part due to a low BABIP). Basically, none of these four have significant trade value. Maybe a C level prospect or mediocre middle reliever. I think what we gave for Greene is probably about what we would have gotten for any of those 4. To get anything significant for them, it would have to been part of a larger deal.

Ankiel, Ludwick and Rasums do have value and it seems Mo at least tested the water for those 3 guys. But I think for various reasons the organization is reluctant to trade those three.

by maurerdj on Jan 31, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed with everything....

and not only that ….but for now….the cards NEED 6 of the 7 outfielders…..someone has to be ready in case of injury (barton). I think later on once Jay or Jones proves ready we’ll see a 2nd one moved. I think Duncan could/should be gone by the end of ST

I hate winter!!!!

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 31, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

“I think we’re falling into the trap overvaluing our players.”

The endowment effect is alive and well among VEB’ers.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 1, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I have to be that guy
Mather was 26 years old in AAA this year and put up bad numbers in his pro debut (in part due to a low BABIP).

Small sample size, and a very low BABIP. He raked in AA and AAA the past two years. I think he’ll be as good as Ankiel when all’s said and done.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Feb 1, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

But unfortunately I think Duncan will be on the roster if healthy.

Once Glaus is healthy does Freese stay up while Ryan goes down? I’d like to keep Freese playing everyday, but Wallace will be locked in at 3B at Memphis by then.

"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe

by fatbellyjefferson on Jan 31, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

If Duncan is healthy

I don’t really see him playing as “unfortunate.” He could be a 30 HR threat if healthy. At the least he would gain trade value. I hear SF wants a LH 1B, Duncan for Lincecum anyone? ;)

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 31, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

"healthy"...

doesn’t quite mean “productive”

I hate winter!!!!

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 31, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Though, last time he was healthy

he was productive

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 31, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

but he still got at bats ....

even though he was deemed “healthy” enough, and wasn’t productive

I hate winter!!!!

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 31, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not entirely his fault

The org. tends to think that people are healthy when they aren’t. See Glaus, Troy, Ankiel, Rick, Duncan, Chris, Clement, Matt, Mulder, Mark, Carpenter, Chris, Isringhausen, Jason…….

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Feb 1, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

i think...

if chris duncan can swing a bat he’ll say he’s healthy regardless of whether or not he feels pain. I think he knows there are way too many players waiting to take his spot. Tony will continue to start him though, despite the lack of productivity, while Ludwick, Ankiel, Schumaker, Rasmus, and Mather continue to spend too much time on the bench ….see early season 2008……thats just the way i see it playing out

I hate winter!!!!

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 31, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm hoping that after Ludwick's season

they won’t play around and not have him in the lineup. impact bat right there Tony!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

that's true. the sad fact is, if Baby Dunk can adjust his cup, he's plays in the STL

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTH SHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 31, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

is he still using the ws trophy?

but seriously, this “duncan favoritism” is a little overblown.

dunc did not get a huge number of PA’s last year, and even with serious injuries he put up a tolerable though hardly spectacular set of numbers, including at .346 OBP. I don’t have any doubt that if he’s not healthy he won’t play. but this is a guy who put up an identical OPS to Albert Pujols in the first half of 2007. and put up a .952 OPS in 2006. he went downhill with a hernia and neck injury. to say that we should play mather or barton over a healthy chris duncan, neither of whom have ever posted an .800 ops, strikes me as overblowing the influence of dave duncan. dave duncan didn’t hit for chris, as I recall.

by tom s. on Jan 31, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

"this is a guy...

…who put up an identical OPS to Albert Pujols in the first half of 2007."

Wow, great factoid. As many times as I’ve defended duncan on here, I never noticed that. of course, it wasn’t exactly a pujolsian half (.927 OPS), but if Mo put a .927 OPS player making under a $M on the market, i guarantee he’d get calls back.

OTOH, i’m convinced mather is going to be a beast next year. I’ll be shocked if duncan has a better year than him in 2009.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 31, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 31, 2009 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope you're right

but I see nothing in Mather’s past that tells me he will be that good. I like the guy a lot though.

What is it that you see in Mr. Bombs that makes you think so highly of him?

Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote.

by Gregatron on Jan 31, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

simply watching

someone his size run, throw, and catch

if/when his hitting catches up to his overall athleticism, he’ll be the bomb

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 31, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

you should see him do a hot lap at Shannon's

dude’s game is Hall of Fame caliber

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTHSHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 1, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Saw him in Springfield

This is what I think of him

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Feb 1, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

But you have to tell the rest of the story

Since the 2007 All-Star break Chris Duncan has slashed .229/.330/.360/.690 with 106 Ks in 358 ABs. I understand he has been hurt, but when a guy says he can play he has to accept the consequences. I hope he can return to form, he was very good for about a season. Nevertheless, he has just as much to prove as anyone else. No OF has sucked worse than him for the last year and a half.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 31, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

probably more to prove, at this point.

trust me, I’m with y’all on this one; if he puts up a .700ish OPS in spring training, he needs to go to AAA or rehab.

OTOH, we shouldn’t just make the blanket assumption that Duncan is done.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 31, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

actually, i don't have to tell the rest of the story.

because everybody here remembers that part.

it’s not as if anybody is arguing that duncan should win a slot regardless of what happens. what i do hear are positively unjustifiable statements that duncan should be traded for a bag of balls or its functional equivalent or that it wasn’t even worth coughing up the $850K for his salary to retain him this year. there’s a lot of irrational dunc-hate on this site and it needs rebutting.

i don’t see why i need to remind people that duncan has been injured and ineffective for more than a year.

by tom s. on Jan 31, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

It's the perceived nepotism.

To me, it’s obvious that Duncan is a talented hitter. It’s just a matter of being healthy. He could’ve been slowly suffering the effects of that disc injury for a long time, even before last season.

People are in a “win-now” mode, and anything that seems to go against that is resisted. But Duncan has/had value, and it’s smart for the Cardinals to give him a chance to rebound, just like it was smart to give Ankiel a chance to change directions.

I think good things will happen for Chris Duncan, but maybe not the first half of the season.

BEN F*&*ING SHEETS!

by spants on Feb 1, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm quite certain

that you don’t have to do anything you don’t want to. But to say “this ‘duncan favoritism’ is a little overblown” by citing numbers from a partial season that is now approaching two years ago and blowing off everything that has happened since is just apologiizing.

I can’t think of another player who has been given more opportunity by this organization for less reason than Chris Duncan.

How many other Cardinal 1b/OF prospects who put up career .751 OPSes in the minors and only hit more than 20 HRs once in seven minor league seasons would get the opportunity that Chris got? How many comically awful defensive players would continue to get the opportunity to play? How many guys who are struggling to find their stroke so bad that they get sent down to AAA would get recalled and inserted into the starting lineup after putting up a week of .160/.300/.240/.540?

Now I would like to see Duncan get healthy and return to his former level of production. I have seen improvement in his defensive play and he can be an important part of this team if he returns to his former self.

Nevertheless, your blythe assertion that he hasn’t been the beneficiary of “favoritism” really insults the intelligence of all of us who have watched his career. If there is any objectivity at this point then Duncan should be ticketed to AAA this year unless he proves himself totally recovered in both health and performance. Right now, Joe Mather and Brian Barton are more deserving of major league opportunity than Chris Duncan is until he proves himself.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Feb 1, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions  

i don't see where i blew his past off.

i simply assumed that every person on the boards was familiar with the recent history of the club.

you said i had to tell the rest of the story as if i was either hiding it or had forgotten it. why did i have to rehash all the reasons for concern re: dunc? i’m fully aware of them. so is everyone else.

and i said the favoritism claim was overblown, not nonexistent. did tony give chris a few more AB’s than i thought was a good idea? yes. do i think that had anything to do with dave being the pitching coach? maybe. do i think it had something to do with duncan’s stunning hitting in 2006 driving a struggling club into the postseason and ultimately the ws? yes.

like i said, overblown, not nonexistent. comments that suggest he has little or no value are silly. the failure to contemplate that we might actually want to keep duncan is amazing.

i feel free to rely on old stats if i think there’s a reason to trust them. the series of injuries to duncan make his failure to perform understandable. and some people recover from injuries and play as well as they did before injury. but i don’t hear people say we shouldn’t pay josh kinney the league minimum. i hear people say he might be our closer. i like josh kinney, and i think he’ll do well. but he has far less of a track record than dunc.

absolutely, dunc had better prove he’s healthy and effective at ST. but maybe people could cut him some slack when they slag him and boost players like mather and barton who had underwhelming first seasons.

by tom s. on Feb 1, 2009 1:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I was pretty much right there with you

until you said “mather and barton….had underwhelming first seasons.” Both were above league average in limited play during there debut seasons. What is underwhelming about that?

I wish people would stop giving players a pass for sucking while they attempt to play injured. There is no merit in playing hurt unless you actually manage to help the team. The fact is that Mather and Barton both outplayed Duncan and are more deserving of a roster spot until Duncan proves himself to be healthy and productive. His record of suck is now longer than his record of being good.

If he doesn’t have to "earn’ his way back then it is just favoritism, period.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Feb 1, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

part of the problem

is that the cards seem to have a culture that discourages communication, particularly about injuries. tlr is a big part of this culture and his macho attitude. just not smart.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Feb 1, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

i wish you wouldn't invent arguments.

looking through my posts for where i said duncan shouldn’t earn his way back

absolutely, dunc had better prove he’s healthy and effective at ST.

. . . no that’s not it.
I don’t have any doubt that if he’s not healthy he won’t play
. . . not that either. no, i don’t think i said that.

so, now we get into part of the real problem of the nepotism argument,

I wish people would stop giving players a pass for sucking while they attempt to play injured.

so … .players. plural. not singular. you mean isringhausen, rolen, edmonds, ankiel . . . do i need to go on? is the real issue here that tony doesn’t trust players who haven’t “proven themselves” and trusts those who have too much? so is this a tony problem or a dunc problem?

brian barton is a great player, good potential. but his obp was exactly six points higher than duncan’s last year. the gap between duncan’s atrocious, execrable performance and barton’s was comparatively small. barton slugged better than dunc by 37 points. not miniscule, but hardly a vast gulf. what i don’t understand is why posters can boost mather as the next great slugger of the team after a few hundred at bats with a .780 ops and at the same time act like duncan is disposable. certainly nothing in their stats compares to a guy who posted a 900+ ops over his first composite season.

you agreed with an above post that states that duncan is going to take playing time away from ludwick and from several centerfielders. as far as i know dunc does not play center field. you then proposed that as long as duncan could “adjust his cup” he would play. this dunc-hate is plain irrational.

by tom s. on Feb 1, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

i agree, if healthy he should play because the dude can flat out mash

the favoritism is most frustration on my part. everyone could clearly see Dunk was hurting yet he kept taking at bat away from Lud. my faith in Tony is weak when it comes to certain players & knowing when to play them & when to not play them. i don’t blame Tony, Dunk is a good hitter. when healthy. Dave is his great friend, Dunk grew up around him. it’s only natural he does show him some favoritism. he’s only human. it’s just frustrating to watch him play when he’s hurt, and i don’t understand why Tony would do that. especially when it ended up hurting not only Dunk, but the team.

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTHSHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 31, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

also...

it came mostly at the expense of Ludwick who was putting up Pujolsian numbers himself early in the season

I hate winter!!!!

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 31, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

right

and then watching Duncan play in the outfield on top of him taking playing time away from Ludwick started the nepotism debate as I recall

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

started?

by then it was a ragging inferno of fire & molten lava rushing down the mountain destroying everything in it’s path.

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTHSHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 1, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

yes

I do tend to understate things at times… it is a natural reaction to me overstating things when I was younger… I am in the balancing out phase of my existence

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2009 4:10 AM EST up reply actions  

LOL

BEN F*&*ING SHEETS!

by spants on Feb 1, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Combining this logic with the previously discussed Wigginton

and my desire to refer to lboros as often as possible for some reason tonight, Wigginton put up nearly identical numbers to Pujols over the span where Houston closed the gap last season. So, why is a player like that still available? He was performing way over his head. Not saying Duncan was as well, but he has done little to prove otherwise since that time.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Feb 1, 2009 1:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Bench

I agree with DanUp. I think that Brendan Ryan has not been given a fair chance (and remember how he started out hitting so well last year), and won’t be again this time around. I think that Duncan should not be part of the bench after last year’s struggles (and Mather should because he proved he was good and belonged).

Welcome to Baseball Heaven.

by zoomzoomj88 on Jan 31, 2009 3:03 PM EST reply actions  

Greene

I have loved Tyler Greene ever since I watched his scouting video before the 2005 draft, and would be ecstatic if he made the team. I just hope Tony does not look at his strikeouts too harshly. Greene can be an excellent player. His combination of speed, defense, and power at SS would be sick. If he could just hit for average…

October 26; the countdown has begun.

by Marmie is the best on Jan 31, 2009 3:07 PM EST reply actions  

doesn't seem

tp hold k greene back too much

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 31, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

The brother's Greene...
If he could just hit for average…

I’m just fine with him hitting .250 or .260 if he would just take a damn walk once and a while. That’s my frustration with both Tyler and Khalil. They have no plate discipline, which means they get cheated out of a ton of swings because they are swinging at pitches that they can’t do anything with. Guys like Dunn strike out a lot, but they also walk a lot and hit a lot of homers because they’re only taking the bat off of their shoulder when they know they can drive a pitch out of the ballpark. If either Greene would put up a .250/.340/.450 line I would be ecstatic. Who cares if they can hit for average as long as they get on base and hit some homers.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Feb 1, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

I think that Tyler walks enough; his career minor league line is .254/.326/.418. That walk rate is pretty decent. If that batting average gets up, he becomes a very productive player, IMO.

October 26; the countdown has begun.

by Marmie is the best on Feb 1, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

That line from a shortstop

With plus defense and good base running, would make him a very valuable player.

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

i think

barden — good mi presence and can pickup 3b at odd times as insurance in case main pick d/n work out

thurston – b. ryan is such a known quantity at this point. they’ll want to test out these wheels if he even has a reasonable spring and ryan doesn’t come out blazing.

mather — can’t miss this bat in a two-lefty OF; also, with what might have been a backup corner infielder taking 3b, likely to need a power bat for pinch hitting.

duncan — if he’s healthy and hitting, I don’t think he gets missed. that’s a big if, but I’m going to gamble here and say he will be.

fumanchu — barring a serious injury that catapults knoedler, anderson, or pagnozzi into the bigs, this is a no brainer

by tom s. on Jan 31, 2009 3:13 PM EST reply actions  

I predict that

at least one of these bench guys you name will be wearing someone else’s uniform by the end of spring training, possibly more.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 31, 2009 3:31 PM EST reply actions  

4 middle infielders

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

Do we really have to?

Sign someone who can pitch, then let this team play.

by IL and StL Fan on Jan 31, 2009 3:37 PM EST reply actions  

the saving grace here may be that one of them goes down when glaus comes back

and our temp 3b sticks and becomes a backup corner infielder/pinch hitter extraordinaire.

by tom s. on Jan 31, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

the Kennedy factor, I think

I, too, get the shakes over the idea of suffering through another season with FOUR MI’s. And as a dues-paying, in good standing member of the ‘Kennedy must go’ faction, I see it as being partly caused by Kennedy’s limitations: NOT fast; NOT a switch-hitter (thus little to zero value as a pinch-hitter); precious little pop in his bat; all tied together with the fact that he can only really play second base.
Kennedy’s talent limitations means he has to be supported by at least one-half of another player… and that does double damage: it crimps that very one-half support partner AND makes it difficult to even consider having a ‘specialist’ type player, eg a pinch runner base-stealer type, or a feared pinch hitter, or even a sac bunt genius. I realize that these spots are luxuries, too, but having Kennedy on the squad means we have chosen the “2nd base defensive specialist” as our luxury item.
With him gone, other juicier possibilities open up.

by the Tewk on Jan 31, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

My guess:

OF – Duncan
OF – Barton
OF/IF – Mather
IF – Barden
C – LaRue

I’m Assuming:
 - Rasmus starts at AAA (unless he rakes or a trade is made)
 - Duncan is, as mentioned before, at least Izzy-healthy
 - Barden will impress in spring training
 - LaRue doesn’t shave his glorious facial hair

by STLRegalia on Jan 31, 2009 4:22 PM EST reply actions  

the real solution

is to trade three outfielders and let amury marti play the whole outfield by himself while he carves his own bats and use 6 infielders.

by mdarshan on Jan 31, 2009 4:48 PM EST reply actions  

Invitees

I honestly think that there will be a wild card pine pony rider, a veteran who receives a non-roster invite and has a good spring. How on earth could TLR resist?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 31, 2009 4:51 PM EST reply actions  

adam kennedy, lead off hitter

so, who bats lead off w/ skippy on the bench?

by bigkatsu on Jan 31, 2009 5:08 PM EST reply actions  

anyone but molina.

Glaus, freese, ryan, luddy, mather, wainwright, etc.

“Leadoff” is not a position.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 31, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

No. They simply do not get on base enough.

High OBP is the most important skill a leadoff hitter should have, trumping speed (even though speed is underrated). A star leadoff hitter — Hanley Ramirez, say — gets on base 40% of the time. An average one got on base 35% of the time last year (baseball-reference figures). Skippy got on base 36% of the time last year, Crabman 35%, both despite favorable platoon matchups (which the major-league “average” leadoff guy didn’t get to take advantage of). That’s “average,” and in context, “average” isn’t good enough.

Who would do better? Good question.

by StanTheManFan on Feb 1, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

think you missed the "platoon effect" bit

skip vs rhp: .393
barton vs lhp: .374

Works out to .386, assuming 35 percent of pitchers are LHP. And barton will likely improve against both LHP and RHP in 2009.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Feb 1, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Barton has had an OBP well over .400 for his career in the minors

And it hasn’t been driven by batting average as it is about 100 points higher. Barton SHOULD be leading off, and Schu should get at bats against righties.

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

my guess...but not my preference

skip starts in LF, Rasmus starts in AAA

Larue
Duncan
Mather
Ryan
Thurston or Barden (spring training comp)

Rasmus gets promoted and Ankiel gets traded, Duncan gets too many at bats and isn’t completely healthy. Ludwick is the only OF to start 130 games for the cardinals.

My preference…

Luddy, Ank, and Colby all start at least 140 games

bench consists of

Mather
Schumaker
LaRue
T. Greene
Barton/Barden/Thurston keep Freese’s bench spot warm until Glaus returns. Duncan gets traded before camp breaks.

I hate winter!!!!

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 31, 2009 5:24 PM EST reply actions  

also,

in my preferred scenario….greene beats out ryan for MIF role

I hate winter!!!!

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 31, 2009 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

im getting really fed up

looking at comments on non-VEB sites with people complaining about “decheapo” and mo.

by krippledmaster on Jan 31, 2009 5:54 PM EST reply actions  

i even saw one guy saying he was going to boycott the cards, but go to milwaukee to cheer them on at away games.

by krippledmaster on Jan 31, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

good riddance

I’m glad I don’t go to the other sites, I stay right here

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

zOMG I remember that!

There are way too many idiots on the PD boards.

Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote.

by Gregatron on Jan 31, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

My guess:

Larue
Dunc OF
Skip OF/(IF?)
Ryan IF
Mather OF/IF

(with Rasmus, Ank, Luddy starting)

My preference:
Starting: Ank and Luddy. Rasmus if he’s awesome in ST, Skippy if he’s not.

Bench:
Larue
Mather
Skip (if he’s not starting, otherwise Barton)
Barden
Thurston/Greene

Dunc will not get traded until he proves he can still play. He can’t prove he can still play getting limited PT in the majors. He needs to start at AAA at least for a while. I’ve never been huge on Barton, he does deserve a shot in ST (against Skip, Dunc, Mather). I think Ryan would be better off somewhere else, since there are guys (barden, thurston, greene) that seem to have more upside. I think he’s gotten plenty of shots to prove himself. I’m also still intrigued by the prospect of Skip manning 2nd.

by WyoCardsFan on Jan 31, 2009 6:25 PM EST reply actions  

if we went by spring training last year

I think Barton and Rasmus would have gotten a lot more at bats on the big league team…

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 31, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Who knows what Crazy Tony will do

but my prediction is:

Ludwick, Ankiel, and Ducan start in the OF with Schumaker and Mather on the bench. The rest of the bench will be Pornstache, Thurston and Ryan. You can substitute any other two MIFs in there as long as the total is four. Unless, of course, TLR is confused by Stavinoha’s resemblance to Miles and keeps him because he thinks he is a MIF.

What it should be:

Ludwick in LF, Rasmus in CF, Ankiel in RF with the bench consisting of:

Mather
Barton
Schumaker
Pornstache
Ryan or TGreene

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 31, 2009 8:49 PM EST reply actions  

Addendum

I think the only way Rasmus goes north with the big club is if at least two LH hitting OFs are either hurt or traded.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 31, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Trade Shumaker

And one of Duncan or Ankiel will probably be hurt.

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 2, 2009 1:57 AM EST up reply actions  

but

gotta remember that it was the FO that picked barton and kept him on the 25 man all year. so, why did he do that? a lot of folks talked about how much promise he had, but now he either would not or could not trade him or schu. especially puzzled by schu because ank and cd both finished injured, but schu was healthy, hit .300, and is cheap. maybe the other teams’ ouija boards say stl will eventually give one of their outfielders away.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 31, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I am inclined to think

they know we need to trade a couple of OFs so they are not offering much. Skip is not worth very much and Barton, as a RH hitter, is probably worth more to us that to other orgs.

I don’t really understand your point about Barton, the FO, and the 25-man. Can you explain?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 31, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

opportunity cost

they (FO) gave the roster spot, ml exposure, and at bats to him. he never really played any AAA, so they (had?) to view him as a multi-year project or an instant trade chip. he proved to be neither and the outfield was crowded without him.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 31, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

So are you saying

that Skip’s trade value was hurt because Barton got playing time or what?

I don’t understand how this is a front office issue either as I imagine TLR was involved in the decision to draft Barton and to keep him on the 25-man roster. Last spring training there was a lot of uncertainty as to whether any of our OFs were going to be any good.

I haven’t been in on any trade discussions myself, but I would think Barton is two years younger than Skip and has better overall tools that he would probably be at least equally valuable.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Feb 1, 2009 1:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Rays just signed Shouse for 2 years.

Now the LOOGY market is looking thin….

Ed Guardado anyone?

by Czechguardsman on Jan 31, 2009 9:31 PM EST reply actions  

has beimel signed yet?

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 31, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Ohman has either

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Jan 31, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Any of the 3 sound good....

I just mentioned Guardado because he seems to be more “under the radar”

by Czechguardsman on Feb 1, 2009 1:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Ohman or Beimel

it would be pretty cool to sign either one of those guys

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2009 4:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Skippy the new "miles" ?

Not that it is being said with anywhere near the same venom as the crusade against Aaron Miles (that went on, almost constantly, for most of three years)… but I smell a theme developing, re. Schumaker.
A more tacit respect, and ungruding, about his skills and value (than with Miles) but a lot of VEBers seem to back hand wave Skippy away. Again, not with angst or passion, but more like a “ah, we don’t really need him.”

I like Skip… and a think a lead-off platoon of him and Barton/Mather in LF would be pretty decent. But I confess I mainly like the Schu because of the ‘grit’ factor. I would argue that he was second behind Miles in that department for the last two years and now will inherit the mantle…if he is still with us.

He’s easy to root for. And even tho I like to win, like every other fan, it is also very important to me that I am comfortable rooting… as in for the people INSIDE those uniforms.

by the Tewk on Feb 1, 2009 12:03 AM EST reply actions  

i'm not sure why we need a platoon of barton and skip.

barton doesn’t need a platoon partner. but skip can’t be on the team without one. if we start one or the other we miss out on the chance to have a power hitter for late inning duties. the outfield is crowded enough without carrying two low-power, high-obp players. if barton can leadoff and play the field, he should hit leadoff.

by tom s. on Feb 1, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree

about Barton. He’s the one who should be getting more playing time. I like Skip, but this isn’t about like.

BEN F*&*ING SHEETS!

by spants on Feb 1, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

until Skippy stops grounding out to 2nd 90% of the time

especially with runners on, i want him traded.

BEN MOTHERHUSTYOURMOUTHSHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 1, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions  

although

I have to add an addendum, both of those guys did come up with some pretty clutch hits lastt year, to be fair

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 1, 2009 4:15 AM EST up reply actions  

+1 one on that

But Skip isn’t a great defender. His UZR in left was off the charts this year, but his CF defense was below average and his previous UZRs in left weren’t great. Barton is a much better defender than Skip. Am I going to have a start a vivaelbrianbarton thing here?

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2009 4:17 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

Skip has no place on the team with this much OF talent.

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2009 12:59 AM EST up reply actions  

For Skippy to have real value

he needs to be able to play legitimate CF defense and hit LHPs. He is too slow for CF and not a good enough offensive player to play LF – at least not for a playoff caliber team.

I don’t really understand the general infatuation with undertalented players.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Feb 1, 2009 1:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Skip will hit righties better than Barton

and Barton mashes on lefties, that’s why.

I’d rather carry one extra outfielder if it means I can get a .900ish OPS out of the platoon, and that’s not out of the question with both of those players. You also have a great pinch hitter on the bench 2/3 of the time with Barton, and either could pinch run in situations because they both have speed.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Feb 1, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

they would both have to improve significantly to get to a .900 platoon

skip only had an .860 OPS against RHP last year, and he had a lot of luck. Barton was .745 against both LHP and RHP, but at least he is likely to improve; he was both unlucky and inexperienced.

And then there’s Joe Mather, who won’t get PA’s against LHP because of Barton. And I have to believe Mather has more upside than anyone besides Duncan, offensively.

If you want a .900 platoon, your best bet is duncan/mather. In fact, you’d have a good shot of getting a 1.000 platoon out of those two.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Feb 1, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Very small sample size with Barton last year in the majors

He needs more at bats. I’m sure his “true” OBA is higher.

Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote.

by Gregatron on Feb 1, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually...

I’ve always called Skip the Aaron Miles of the outfield. Of course, last year, Aaron Miles was also the Aaron Miles of the outfield, which confused things. But they are somewhat similar, besides the “grit” factor.

Their main attribute is hitting for average and little else. Skip walks a little more and has more power, but can’t hit lefties.

I also think Skip has pretty much reached his upside, something you can’t say about the rest.

Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)

by DiscoJer on Feb 1, 2009 5:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

Barton, Duncan, Mather, Ankiel and Rasmus all have much better upside that Skip. Also they will likely do just as well as Schu next year.

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2009 5:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree

People are seriously underrating Skip I think because we all want to see what Ras can do. My own opinion is that Ras has NOT proven he’s ready and that Skip and Barton will make a very decent left field/lead off platoon for as long as it takes Ras to get there. At that point, say mid season, the market for one of our outfielders may be better and we bring Ras up and trade to fill a need elsewhere.

by easy on Feb 1, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

My preferred scenario

Starting outfield
-CF Rasmus
-RF Ludwick
-LF Ankeil

Starting infield
-3B Freese
-SS Greene (Kahlil)
- 1B …ummmm
-2B Kennedy
-CA Yadi

Bench
-IF Thurston
-IF Ryan
-OF/3B Mather
-OF Barton
-CA Pornstache

Leftovers
-Duncan in AAA to get healthy/productive so he be called up if Rasmus/Barton struggles or Ankiel is traded. Or he could be traded if he REALLY beefs up his value in Memphis.
-Trade Schumaker for any kind of SP depth
-Craig starting 3B in AAA
-Wallace starting 3B in AA
-Greene, Barden, Hoffpaur 2B/SS rotation in AAA

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2009 12:57 AM EST reply actions  

maybe

but craig may be at first in AAA and wallace at 3rd

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Feb 1, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

I hope Wallace

gets to start in AA this year. If only so that I can see him play for a few months in person. But, if he shows well enough to make the AAA club, I guess I’d have to live with that.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...Oh yeah, and by the way....BEN SHEETS!!!!!

by RunninRedbird on Feb 1, 2009 9:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Perfect!

You saved me the trouble of typing the exact same thing out.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 1, 2009 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Putting Ankiel in left just seems like a waste of that golden arm

Although it would be cool to see him throw out a guy at first on a grounder through the left side…your typical 7-3 putout

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 1, 2009 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Ludwick is an excellant RF

His career UZR/150 is 4.6 in right and he had the second best arm in RF last year. Ankiel has an arm, but Luddy really is a fantastic RF.

vivaelbensheets

by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Who knows how it plays out...

…but I’d venture to guess the opening day starters in the outfield are Schumaker, Ankiel, and Ludwick.

So, if I believe that, I’ d have to believe the bench looks like this:

LaRue
Ryan
Thurston
Mather
Duncan

I’d love to see Rasmus on the roster, but not on the bench or platooning.

by LukeMP1186 on Feb 1, 2009 1:08 AM EST reply actions  

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