Groundskeepers and PA announcers report
by DanUpBaby on Jan 27, 2009 10:00 AM EST
300 comments
Do you hear the birds chirping yet, over the sound of the snowplows? Has the smell of newly mown grass begun commingling with the smell of road-salt slowly breaking down the clear-coat on your car's rear quarter panels? That's right—three more "notes" Tuesdays until pitchers and catchers report. (Thanks to the MLB Important Dates calendar I know that it's also Asian World Baseball Classic Players Report day, which probably won't catch on quite so well.)
Free Agent Pitching watch, day 300: There goes Pettitte, and with him any hope I had of learning to spell his name with the correct number of T's on a regular basis.
Nothing the Cardinals could do here; from the looks of his final deal Pe-two-ts-i-two-more-ts-e was not going to go anywhere but New York, and in the end he folded pretty seriously from his initial demands for the privilege. In the end he traded what was rumored to be a guaranteed $10 million offer from the Yankees for a deal that could, if everything breaks right, be worth $12 million—that sounds less like negotiation and more like coming back, on bended knee, to Brian Cashman.
It makes sense for him, if you've ever imagined a player, mid-career, as thinking about his "legacy"; as a Hall-of-Very-Good pitcher, the more he stays in one place—particularly if that place cares enough about its Storied Past to make a cable TV network about it—the better remembered he is by posterity. It's the difference between being Kevin Appier or Jimmy Key and, well, Andy Pettitte.
You'd think that would make the Cardinals a little more "in" on the Ben Sheets race—in the afterglow of that week or so when the Yankees signed C.C. Sabathia, Mark Teixeira, A.J. Burnett, and some other players, New York was momentarily considered Sheets's top suitor—but a simple Google News search will let you know that the Rangers seem to be ahead of the pack at this point.
Of course, a simple Google News search for "St. Louis Cardinals", at this point, will also make it seem like they're in talks to acquire Kurt Warner. But scroll down a little and you will find one of the early indicators of the coming Spring Training season, the canary in our Hot Stove coal mine: the first full-on "I'm in the best shape of my life" article of the season.
Nothing says Spring Training like players being in the best shape of their lives, and while it was somewhat heartening to see Ludwick and Rasmus boast during the Winter Warm-up of their off-season weightlifting, Yadier Molina losing his ten pounds is a more conventional form of baseball's second-oldest story. (The oldest, as any obsessive reader of Bill James's Historical Baseball Abstract will tell you, is the one that begins "Baseball players in my day were just... different, somehow.")
As to the best-shaped in question, it certainly can't hurt for Molina to be in the best shape of his life, since he plays so punishing a position and is held from a higher batting average by the parachute trailing from his back. But as far as wearing down over the course of the season goes, there isn't much to suggest it in Molina's batting numbers. His OPS is, in fact, a little higher in the second half. (Much of that can be attributed to Aprils 2005 and 2006; if you add those OPSes together, to form his April 2005-6 OPSPOPS, you get .738, which is three points lower than his OPS from last season.)
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Non-cardinals
Francis experiencing “sharp pain in the front of his shoulder” and won’t be ready for ST at the very least after struggling through last year with it. Rockies rotation is gonna be ho-rrendous. I do wonder how long it’ll take for O’Leary to find some “new” video/photo/something to revise his opinion…
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 27, 2009 10:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Why all the hate for O'Leary?
He’s just pointing out things that he sees mechanically that go against the general and historical consensus on pitching mechanics. Do you hate Mike Marshall too?
Throwing a baseball is a tremendously taxing thing on the arm. Just because Francis has good mechanics doesn’t mean that his shoulder is built like Greg Maddux’s shoulder, or that he always had good mechanics his entire life. I find O’Leary’s writing interesting from the standpoint that a lot of oft injured big league pitchers do in fact have some of the mechanics that he points out. That’s not to say that he’s going to be right 100% of the time or that it’s even predictive
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting yes
The “I called Chris Carpenter, I called Jeremy Bonderman (even though he had a blood clot, the same injury as one of his "good” guys Kip Wells)!!!!" chest pounding and the way he talks in absolutes bugs me to a ridiculous degree. Then Freddy Garcia was on his good list……oop he got injured now I see what was wrong. He confirmation biased the hell out of “dragging” in the Mulder thing. Bert Blyleven, he’d have “serious shoulder and elbow problems”…..oh nevermind I changed my philosophy. Curt Schilling has “perfect timing”….oop he blew out his labrum, now I found this video showing he wasn’t good. David Kopp has struggled with health, he just must not have “it”.
Are there useful things that can be gathered from analyzing mechanics yes, and I generally agree with his philosophies though not entirely. It’s style and this revisionist stuff.
And yes I do hate Mike Marshall and will continue to do so till his pitchers can beat 77 mph. Useful things can be fetched out, but he’s not remotely a messiah he likes proclaim himself.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 27, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I just don't read his comments that way
I don’t get the feeling of arrogance that you seem to get I guess.
I also think that Mike Marshall over-promotes himself to a great extent, but I don’t think that his study of mechanics is way off. FWIW, Marshall has had some pitchers recover their full velocity pitching his way — I believe one of them made the Tampa Bay bullpen 3 or 4 years ago. He wasn’t a very good pitcher, but he did get up into the 90’s.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The thing about Chris
is that he states his opinions as God-given truth. Sure, injured pitchers have some things in common, but there are also pitchers that have these so-called “red flags” that have full, healthy careers.
My opinion is that the question isn’t “if” a pitcher will get hurt, it’s “when.” There’s nothing wrong with trying to do things to prevent injuries, but I think you run into issues when you limit a pitcher’s athletic ability by forcing “perfect” mechanics on him. I think everybody here would agree that they would rather have the “injury-prone” Chris Carpenter of 2005 and 2006 then a “healthy but mediocre” Chris Carpenter.
My point is that pitchers get hurt. The overhand throwing motion is the most unnatural for the human arm. Injuries will happen, even to those with “perfect” mechanics. So I believe we should let pitchers be athletes, and as long as there aren’t any GIANT warning signs of imminent injury, let them throw, let them throw hard, and let them get outs.
by Jhusk on Jan 27, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Such As...
“but there are also pitchers that have these so-called "red flags" that have full, healthy careers.”
Please name some.
by thepainguy on Jan 28, 2009 10:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...old school
Inverted W, elbow picks up the ball, shows the ball to 2nd base, early pronation: 3800 innings later.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 28, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bob Feller
1. While Feller has some borderline Inverted W, it didn’t appear to affect his timing (which is what matters). I’d lump him in with Smoltz and Pedro, to a degree.
2. Feller absolutely does NOT show the ball to 2B as people are taught today. At the high-cocked position, he’s showing the ball to 3B.
3. Feller had a 3-4 year hole in the middle of his career due to WWII. He served for the entire duration of the war (enlisted 12/8/41), which gave his arm an extended period of rest.
by thepainguy on Jan 28, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The name was Jeff Sparks
And he didn’t use anything but the arm action. Marshall’s lower body mechanics IMO very literally prevent using the hips.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 27, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mike and Chris
First, I will never allow my son (7) to pitch as long as he lives in my house:) But I have looked into both sites and theories. Mike’s is interesting and might explain how a of 5ft nothing can throw in 105 games and over 200 innings in a season and never have arm problems. I disagree that he does not have hip action, it is just different. I have tried it and it is just too Different and since I will never allow my son to pitch it does not matter anyway.
As for Chris, I do not think he has finished his development of his Pitching Theory. But I am very interested by his Rotational Hitting theories. First time I read his I had and eiphany and it all made sense. I have looked at other Rotational Hitting But his is better thought out and I prefer his.
I catch myself watching one of the Greats on MLBN and using the Tivo, stopping it and watching it in superslow mo. you see the Power L, Rotation of the Hips followed by the shoulders. No Hands until after the point of contact has come and gone. (Damn, if only I had read this 30 years ago. I could have been a short fat…..something, hitting the ball to the warning track in a fantasy camp somewhere. OK, it would not of helped me but I think it will put my son in a good thought pattern.)
My point comes down to this. Each of us have our own visions on how things work. Some are comfortable with the Status Quo and think that it explains thier vision of how it should be. Others question the Status Quo and ask if their is a better way. My father was an “unschooled” engineer that ended up with 60 pattens and in Research and Development for his company. Why? Because he did not rely on the Status Quo. He looked for the better way.
PS. Self-confidence is needed to walk against the grain.
Andy S
by apaul1029 on Jan 28, 2009 1:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm very firmly with you on this one
O’Leary clearly puts in some work on his site and in his research…It just bugs the hell out of me when someone claims to be scientific but really only looks at injured pitchers and tries to guess why there injured, and then when they get hurt again he says “I called it!!!” That isn’t science, it’s nothing close to science.
You pretty much nailed it on the head here. So much so that I really have nothing to add.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 27, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My Methods
“O’Leary clearly puts in some work on his site and in his research…It just bugs the hell out of me when someone claims to be scientific but really only looks at injured pitchers and tries to guess why there injured, and then when they get hurt again he says "I called it!!!" That isn’t science, it’s nothing close to science.”
If you followed my work, you would know that I DO NOT just look at injured pitchers.
Instead, I look at injured pitchers and long-lived pitchers and compare and contrast the two groups.
by thepainguy on Jan 28, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Scientific Method
“The "I called Chris Carpenter, I called Jeremy Bonderman (even though he had a blood clot, the same injury as one of his "good" guys Kip Wells)!!!!” chest pounding and the way he talks in absolutes bugs me to a ridiculous degree. Then Freddy Garcia was on his good list……oop he got injured now I see what was wrong. He confirmation biased the hell out of "dragging" in the Mulder thing. Bert Blyleven, he’d have "serious shoulder and elbow problems"…..oh nevermind I changed my philosophy. Curt Schilling has "perfect timing"….oop he blew out his labrum, now I found this video showing he wasn’t good."
This is the way science works.
You make observations, come up with a theory to explain those observations, make predictions based on that theory, and then see what happens.
Based on how your predictions work out, you revise your theory accordingly and make a new set of predictions and see how they work out.
I doubt if any theory got everything right the first time.
by thepainguy on Jan 28, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
So why didn’t you revise your theory based on Kip Wells having a blood clot in 2006—-while using Bonderman as a checkmark for your theories when he had (basically) the same injury? Or Kelvim Escobar who doesn’t have a (but possibly extremely minor) timing problem blowing out his shoulder? Surely you’ve looked at him.
And outcome/confirmation bias is not science. That’s the only thing you can call the Freddy Garcia crap. You’re looking at basically the same stuff (or didn’t look closely enough to say anything in the first place) and came to different conclusions. Gee I wonder why. The Kopp stuff is pure selective perception to the most utmost degree.
Okay I’ll give you the Blyleven stuff, Schilling with getting better video whatever, hell I’ll even give you the benefit of the doubt on learning from Mulder, but Garcia/Kopp isn’t science. That’s being a moving target, so color me a little cynical when you conclude Francis should be “safe” and then he is suffering some shoulder issues.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 28, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Comments
“So why didn’t you revise your theory based on Kip Wells having a blood clot in 2006—-while using Bonderman as a checkmark for your theories when he had (basically) the same injury?”
Wells and Bonderman had very different injuries. Bonderman’s was up by his collarbone (which is in the neighborhood of the shoulder complex) while Wells’ was in his arm and/or hand.
I haven’t really studied Escobar because I don’t have any good video of him.
I liked Freddy Garcia because he got his arm up early but ignored his hyperabduction. Now I worry about Wainer due to his hyperabduction (and Inverted W).
You clearly don’t have all the information about Kopp.
by thepainguy on Jan 28, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“You clearly don’t have all the information about Kopp.”
This is crap. It’s like two grade school girls saying “I’ve got a secret but I can’t tell you.” Until and unless Kopp goes all Grienke/Ankiel on us you’re basically slandering Kopp.
by azruavatar on Jan 28, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My theory
I’d like to eliminate the idea of proper mechanics completely. Each person has different anatomy and should throw with a motion that is natural to them.
If I was a pitching guru, I’d also get rid of long-tossing and non-pitching specific exercises….but drastically increase throwing from a mound in between starts/appearances. Long-tossing is the most stressful thing I’ve ever done to my arm, way more taxing than throwing off a mound.
by your_all_morans on Jan 27, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Long-tossing
Yet most pitchers who had long careers played plenty of long toss when they were younger. Warren Spahn and Nolan Ryan have openly talked about how much long toss they played when they were young and how much throwing they did as kids — very little of it off of a mound. Most college programs incorporate some sort of long toss program into their workouts for pitchers, so it must have some benefit or they wouldn’t do it.
I think that you have to put stress on your arm in order to strengthen it. You have put stress on your other muscles to strengthen them, so it would be the same for the arm. One way to reduce injury to joints is the strengthen the muscles that hold the joint together.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's pretty much it
As with any kind of physical activity, it’s all about pushing the boundary out just a hair more every time you train. The trick is to avoid breaking yourself while still pushing it just a hair.
I agree with your points about LT. I think when done right it’s a great training device.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 27, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it depends on what you mean by arm strength
There seems to be little correlation between “arm strength” and one’s ability to avoid injuries or throw hard. So the goal should not be to increase arm strength but to increase endurance, the ability of your arm to rebound between pitches and between outings.
Spahn and Ryan may have played a lot of long-toss as a kid but I’m not sure that’s the reason why they were successful. To me, it’s that they were simply throwing a lot and increasing their endurance. I don’t understand why long-toss is beneficial when 99.5% of a pitcher’s throwing movements in game are made from a mound — they should be making 99.5% of their practice throws from the mound too. Perhaps some players benefit from long-toss but maybe more cause additional inflammation while doing it. It’s less natural due to the release point than pitching on a downward plane from a mound, imo.
Specific to pitching-related injuries, the last 10-20 years of data is clear evidence that the current workout regimen is not preventing injuries. It would be interesting to do a historical study on a pitcher’s workout and compare it to their injuries to see if a certain activity may contribute to or prevent injury. My suggestion is to change their routine.
by your_all_morans on Jan 27, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I heard of...
…recent research by Dr. William Raasche that suggests that pitching injuries are related to the act of pitching a baseball off of the mound. Here’s a link to the study. If this is the case, then doing all of your pitching-related activities off of the mound, like you suggest, would cause more problems than it solves. I didn’t see the full write-up, and there are always sample size issues when dealing with these kinds of studies. However, it’s interesting and it makes logical sense.
Training pitchers is a small-n experiment because no two sets of pitching joints are the same. Training programs almost always have to be individualized. I would agree that pitchers keep getting hurt, but I would disagree that that means that pitching instructors/coaches/gurus are just plain wrong. I would say that we simply don’t know enough about the area AND that pitching injuries have SO MANY possible causal factors that it’s just difficult to say what must be done.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 27, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By your logic...
All offensive lineman should do nothing but block defensive lineman to get better because that’s what they do most of the time, and all hitters should simply hit all the time and not worry about strength training.
Throwing long-toss develops better endurance, stronger muscles around the elbow and shoulder joints, and helps pitchers to develop the best possible arm slot to throw from for them. When they are throwing a longer distance, their body has to learn how to throw a ball harder using the same movement, providing muscle memory. When the pitcher then throws 60’6" he is able to throw a bit harder and with less effort and strain because he’s trained at the longer distance.
For instance, NFL wide receivers, running backs, and world class sprinters train with parachutes tailing behind them so that their body can run with more resistance and train to move them forward at a faster rate once the chute is removed. Same goes for distance runners that train at high altitude — they train in air with less oxygen because when they get down to sea-level their VO2 max is at higher rate, allowing them to run longer and farther on the same amount of oxygen. Long toss does the same thing for a throwing arm.
While throwing hard is generally something that your born with, you can take a high 80’s fastball and develop into throwing in the low 90’s with less strain by using the proper training and strength development in the legs, trunk, and arms.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying there's no benefit to LT
I’m saying it may cause injury, perhaps even unknowingly. Nearly all arm injuries are repetitive/cumulative trauma related and cutting out potential sources of injury to me makes sense. I don’t dispute that people notice benefit in long-tossing but this string and my postings has been about preventing injuries.
by your_all_morans on Jan 27, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But if you
“drastically increase throwing from a mound in between starts/appearances” you run an even higher risk of injury due to “repetitive/cumulative trauma”. The pitching coach at my son’s unnamed D-I college did exactly what you are recommending by cutting out long toss and going to more frequent bullpens from the mound. After never having an arm injury in 13 years of competitive pitching he had a strained ulnar collateral ligament in less than two months and it effectively ended his college career.
Most pitchers who get to that level have plenty enough arm strength. What they need is core strength, balance and endurance. Too much throwing, especially at near game speed will only break down the tissues and cause micro tears in the muscle fibers. These micro tears are normal, but if you increase the frequency of throwing at game speed they will not heal properly and you will effectively limit the elasticity of the muscles and lose velocity.
Between start throwing from the mound should be limited to “polishing pitches” and fine tuning mechanics.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 27, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I pitched at a small D III school. In little league I pitched every other game and in high school I had the occasional bullpen appearance between starts, and never had an arm problem, but in my junior year in college our new pitching coach decided that we were going to follow Tom House’s pitching guidlines, because he went to a Tom House pitching clinic and had a man-crush on Mark Prior. So we cut down the long toss and increased the bullpens. And if that wasn’t bad enough, he tried to get everyone to throw with the exact same motion. I topped out at 70 mph, threw alomost 3/4, and threw mostly curveballs and sliders, so needless to say, this didn’t work out for me and my shoulder still kills me when I play softball. wow, that was quite the rant. I guess I have some pent up anger issues. We called him coach D. he thought it was because he looked like Dempster, but it was actually short for coach Douchebag
by STLRegalia on Jan 28, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Francis = Mulder?
“Given the Rockies’ recent run through the playoffs, I have had a chance to see a lot of Jeff Francis. He keeps his Pitching Arm Side (aka PAS) elbow quite low, which is generally good. However, what I’ve been wrestling with is whether his arm action is more Mark Mulder or more Greg Maddux. After analyzing Jeff Francis’ pitching mechanics, I think he is more Greg Maddux than Mark Mulder, which is good for both him and the Rockies.”
There are a LOT of similarities between Jeff Francis and Mark Mulder, and I noted them in a quick look at some photos of him (I couldn’t find any good video at the time).
Based on a quick look at his mechanics, I thought he was more Maddux than Mulder, but I see some of the same things as Mulder. In particular the premature pulling in of the Glove Side elbow and the VERY low PAS elbow (which can be an attempt to manage a shoulder problem).
This remains more art than science.
by thepainguy on Jan 28, 2009 10:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
And thanks for weighing in. Your notes are always appreciated on these topics since you seem to have intimate knowledge of mechanics and arm injuries.
What is your opinion of long-toss? Is it an effective training method?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 28, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Long Toss
I am a big fan of long toss because I think it enables you to throw hard but with good timing.
I first saw long toss in action when watching David Eckstein warm up with progressive long toss before every game. He started out 30 feet off of the 1B line and ended up stretching it out to 200 feet or so.
Also, due to things like growth plates it does ZERO good, and much bad, for kids younger than 16 or 17 to throw too much.
by thepainguy on Jan 28, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jeff Francis and Rushing
You’ll also notice that I have expressed concern in the past that Francis may have a timing problem (aka rushing)…
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/Rushing.html
Again, I’ve got to find some good video of him.
I know that the MLB Network has been replaying the 2007 WS, so I may be able to DVR it from there.
by thepainguy on Jan 28, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes yes
You can hedge every bet you make…….your conclusion (and in the picks and pans) is that he was “in the green”.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 28, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sure, if he turns out like maddux, you're covered. if he turns out like mulder, you're covered.
nice work.
by tom s. on Jan 28, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Borderline Cases
Borderline cases are always the hardest to make a call on.
Lesson learned.
by thepainguy on Jan 28, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but you're not saying he's borderline.
you’re saying he either pitches like a guy who lasted until he was 42 or like a guy who was done before thirty.
nobody’s requiring you to come out and say “these guys have good mechanics and these guys don’t.” This is your personal endeavor. To claim “this is a borderline case” or “everybody makes mistakes sometimes” would be an excellent out if you were these pitchers’ personal physician. but nobody sought you out to give these opinions. you’re propounding them as a personal insight that you have and seeking to gain some notoriety (and cash) for yourself.
at some point i fail to see how giving nebulous predictions is better than saying, “gosh, i really don’t know. I haven’t done a physical, I haven’t done any MRI’s.” it would be a lot more intellectually honest. but having a website that says “i study pitching mechanics and let me examine your son for good mechanics for a fee” would be less profitable than saying “greg maddux has great mechanics! sandy koufax has terrible mechanics! let me check your son out! for a fee!”
this is just fortunetelling with anat/phys layered over the top.
by tom s. on Jan 28, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In the "Backing up your Words" Dept.,
Yadi certainly looks good, per the pix of him picking up his GG in the P-D last week.
by cardsgirl95 on Jan 27, 2009 10:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Female perspective question
I don’t have any hard data other than my annecdotal observations. According to my observations, I see that Yadi has a high percentage of fans that are females. Perhaps, more than other players. So I wonder:
1. If my observataions are actually somewhat true, i.e. many females are fans of Yadi, wear his jersey, etc…
2. If 1, then why? Is it because of his cannon of an arm? Is it the fact that he came through our own system? Is it the fact that he has no fear and guns it any chance he gets? Or is it the position (was it the same with Matheny), i.e. Is the catcher a position that most femles prefer to root for?
I hope I didn’t offend anyone with this. I am cerntainly not trying to stereotype anyone. I don’t know if you’all recall the Nike commercial where Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine are training to hit the long ball, because “girls dig the long ball”, and they are upstaged by Mark McGwire.
I just find it interesting that my wife and I have very different perspectives when we talk about the Cards or when we watch games togehter. I guess I am more focused on the play in the field and player performance, while she is also interested about finding about player’s lives, e.g. AP’s foundations, medical issue with Springer’s child, ARF, etc…
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Jan 27, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I recall from last year
that they think he’s good looking… although one of my friends from high school who is also a Cardinal fan said he was one of the ugliest people he’s ever seen. to each their own I suppose….
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ugly or otherwise
Yadi’s face. in a lot of poses, looks like a little boy. NOT in the same way as WonderBrad (the ultimate Cardinal baby-face) but youthful…and maybe impish.
That’s MY theory, at least
by the Tewk on Jan 27, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I personally don't think he's that ugly
just kind of unique looking
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
to give credence to your theory
my wife’s favorite Cardinal is probably Yadi, and I occasionally have heard comments referring to him as a “big, cute baby”.
by phesto on Jan 27, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My wifes too
though she still misses Grudz.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Jan 27, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my wife thinks miles is cute. she's broken-up about him not getting resigned.
by tom s. on Jan 27, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my wife agrees with me
that miles looks like a pedaphile(i don’t know if that’s how it’s spelled)
by STLRegalia on Jan 27, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
can we please not go there?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 27, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he kinda looks like a big cute turtle
but then again, so do I, kinda
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My daughter calls him "baby cheeks"
and it is definitely that she thinks he’s good looking. Note that your high school friend who said he is ugly is a HE.
by ArkansasTravs on Jan 28, 2009 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
true
that’s why it doesn’t matter as much, heh
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 28, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For me
it’s not so much physical appearance, although ball players are usually (with some exceptions…see Duncan, Chris) fairly easy on the eyes, but more a combination of looks, talent, and personality. I am definitely more emotionally invested in personality than most male fans I know. I would say out of all of those, talent is first, then personality 1 A, followed in far third by looks.
mel
by mel1975 on Jan 27, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Personality, oh yes
If I were to ask my wife, she would probably agree with you. For better or for worse, she tends to look at players more as a complete human being (i.e. having a family, communicating to the fans, or even how they relate to their teammates) whereas I focus more on the performance as a player. I have to say that, thankfully, the Cards don’t have any knuckleheads in their clubhouse (or at least what I am aware of). I am so thankful that the whole Rolen thing is over with.
Re: Duncan. Doesn’t everyone find chewing and spitting tobacco attractive? :)
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Jan 27, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what cardinals outfielder
doesn’t have a chew/dip in at all times?
by STLRegalia on Jan 27, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but for some reason
It is soooooooooo obvious and disgusting the way he does it. Don’t get me wrong, in some respects I have a little bit of a soft spot for Duncan, but he looks fantastically uncouth at pretty much all times.
mel
by mel1975 on Jan 27, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My wife
is in love with Albert, something about his thighs (keep her away from the walrus), but has said nothing about Yadi.
by STLRegalia on Jan 27, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's time to dust off the thighmaster
I’ve been exercising the wrong part of my body. He he.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Jan 27, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes he is.
(Come on guys, you know you’re thinking it.)
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Jan 27, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I know there's a girl at my work who thinks that
and yeah, he’s a good looking guy, duh
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 27, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My man crush on Albert doesn't touch my man crush on Waino
The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs
by jd is legend on Jan 27, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You guys are starting to worry me...
This is the second thread in a row you all have been drooling over male baseball players.
How about a little love for Alyssa Milano? She is smoking and I don’t care if she can’t hit a lick.
*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*
by Red Blazer on Jan 28, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed re: Alyssa Milano
The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs
by jd is legend on Jan 28, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sexiest thing I've ever seen
1. .329 .403 .610
2. .314 .394 .561
3. .359 .439 .667
4. .331 .415 .657
5. .330 .430 .609
6. .331 .431 .671
7. .327 .429 .568
8. .357 .462 .653
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 27, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I always forget he had that .359 season
holy crap
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I actually forgot that one...
…after he obliterated that season by hitting .357 last year with a higher OBP. He literally took it to a whole new level last season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
last season
looks like it came out of the 20s or something
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 27, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It should be wearing
a three piece suit with a pocketwatch and a fancy hat and talk in a high pitched voice, walking briskly to wherever the big Charlton contest is.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Jan 27, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
that .359 season he had a higher SLG though
still, last season was just unbelievable
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 8:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Put him back in Busch II
last season and he probably hits another 5-6 homers, which would be enough to push his slugging percentage up above it’s level from that season…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah
forgot about that
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 28, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My Favorite Stat Line
to show people is
AB 590
R 118
H 185
2B 40
HR 34
RBI 127
BB 72
SO 69
OBP.394
SLG.561
AVG.314
Albert’s “Worst” Year!
by Beardsville Rockers on Jan 27, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
OPS is not even 1.000 how pathetic
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 27, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Put all his worst stats together
R 99 (‘07)
H 177 (’06)
2B 33 (‘06)
3B 0 (’08)
HR 32 (‘07)
BB 69 (’01)
SO 93 (‘01)
AVG .314 (’02)
OBP .394 (‘02)
SLG .561 (’02)
OPS .955 (’02)
The average and hits would have been created with about 564 ABs (his lowest was 524, last year). How many players would kill to have those kind of numbers…and these are his worst. That is just sick.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 28, 2009 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Forgot RBIs
103 (’07). Even sicker. The best hitter in the game today.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 28, 2009 12:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I Have Those Saved Too
I use them both,too often, when the Cubs fans at work would try to argue that DLee is/was better than #5. They just don’t know how funny they sound!
by Beardsville Rockers on Jan 28, 2009 12:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
actually....not so much
for me…although i admire him so much.
Scott Rolen = hot
Glaus = somewhat hot
Skinny Yadi = attractive in a young way
Wainright =hot
Luddy = somewhat hot
Skip = very hot in a pocket-sized way
Ummm…guess I’ll stop now. Not usually one to go on about that stuff, but I definitely notice. When I was younger, seemed like the whole team was hot. Brian Jordan, very good looking. JD might have been injury prone, but he sure is good looking…no really..i’m stopping.
mel
by mel1975 on Jan 27, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My sister
has the BIGGEST crush on any ballplayer I have ever seen. She cuts out any photo of him she finds in a paper and puts them on her wall. Ok, that was when she was 16 and Ank was still pitching then, but she still admits she thinks Rick is hot. I’d agree he’s a good looking guy.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 27, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the ballplayer is Ankiel
I should preview my own comments better before posting them.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 27, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
RE: Yadda
for a lot of women it’s not only the way he looks, but a big part of it is how he handles himself on the field. they love the way he takes charge & runs the show when he’s behind the plate. he’s the boss & everyone knows it. they just love that about him. the fact that he gets all dirty & looks all sexy & manly doing it is the icing on the cake for them.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 27, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
did your mom tell you that?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 27, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i did a survery last season of the STL lasses
after they told me why they didn’t like me, i asked them why they liked Yadi.
you have no idea how hard it is typing on your blackberry while trying to wipe vodka & red bull’s out of your eyes.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 28, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are hilarious.
BEN F*&*ING SHEETS!
by spants on Jan 28, 2009 1:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Best. Reply.Ever.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 28, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you nailed it.
I do have a soft spot for catchers, especially Yadi. But this chick digs the glove in general and my boy really shines in that department. And he’s cute, too.
by cardsgirl95 on Jan 27, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the compliment
But how did you know about my injury history? :P
The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs
by jd is legend on Jan 27, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hooray for Yadi!
Losing weight should help his knees get through the season; his other injuries have come under the “occupational hazard” hopper — getting hit by pitches, getting body-slammed by baserunners, that sort of thing…
Pettitte’s signing should be a shot across the bow of all those other FA “back of the rotation” pitchers… big bucks just ain’t out there this year. How many pitchers will find themselves in Kyle Loshe’s shoes this year?
Meantime, we’re having an ice storm here in northeast Arkansas… the Goaler prefers his ice in rinks and drinks, NOT on highways! C’mon, pitchers and catchers!
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Jan 27, 2009 10:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not so much on Pettitte
I feel extremely confident in saying if he had made himself available to a single other team aside from the Astros/Yankees he’d have received much, much more.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 27, 2009 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
He pushed him self in a corner and at the end he said yankees or retire. Hard to make yourself money when you’ll only play for one team you pay for it
"When the boogie man goes to sleep he checks his closet for Chuck Norris"
by elirock83 on Jan 27, 2009 11:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and isn't THAT ironic
usually the Yankees OVER-pay.
Personally I think Pettitte is through anyway; so I am in no way dismayed. I don’t see many Ws for the old lefty in ’09, no matter who he pitched for. I predict…retired by July.
by the Tewk on Jan 27, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ice is in SW MO too!
Third straight year of ice storms, it’s kinda becoming common occurence in these parts….
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 27, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what ever happened to snow?
we used to get lots of snow not it is always just ice…BOOOOOO ICE!
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
by nomar34 on Jan 27, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ice is a double edged sword for me
Good because it cancelled my classes for today.
Bad because the roads are so awful I don’t want to drive anywhere.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 27, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I get to work out of home
Vivaelbirdos all day!
by hghallstar on Jan 27, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we have over 110 inches of it here in syracuse.
Oswego County, NY has been nailed, and more on the way. We might be able to play golf by June!
by nybirdfan on Jan 27, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
110 in?
you might be able to play by June of 2109…
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
by nomar34 on Jan 27, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
110? holy hell!
i thought we had it bad getting more than a foot today through tomorrow. obviously, i was wrong.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 27, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we ave. 120" a season
we still have all of Feb and March. The record here is over 200. the wind blows off the Lake Ontario and dumps snow on us from Holloween to Easter. Even Mother’s Day sometimes. Oswego County can get 3 feet over night. Syracuse is just south of there and we miss a lot of it. The line is Instate 90. South not too bad if 120 inches a winter is your thing. North of 90 look out. Syracuse, Ny is the snowiest major metroplitan area in the country encluding Alaska.
by nybirdfan on Jan 27, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My nephew is a senior at Syracuse
and is SO ready to be back in So. Colo, where it got up to 70 a couple of weeks ago. Although it’s been below freezing the last two days, supposed to be in the 50s tomorrow.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 27, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dude it was *93* 2 weekends ago, in redondo beach.
And I was stuck working all weekend. Bleh.
Still, high is 65 today, and will be 70, 76, 77 the rest of the week.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 27, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh
you said so colo, misread that as so cal. lol.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 27, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
socal represent
never feel bad about bragging about the weather here. I’m in Huntington Beach and never miss a chance to rub it into my parents who live on the east side
by FunkeeC on Jan 27, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah rub it in guys
i just got in from the blizzard outside & i think i froze my twig&berries off.
do me a favor & talk about how overrated In ’N Burgers are. that might make me feel better.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 28, 2009 1:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Shut the fuck up,
Donny.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Jan 28, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I just got back from that area
and I can’t believe how crazy it was. Trees were cracking off all day. Everytime I heard a snap, I’d flinch and get ready to run in case I was under the tree. I had 2 or 3 branches that fell within about 10 ft of me. Best of luck to everyone in that area.
by azruavatar on Jan 28, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
FAs
Are the Cards realistically going to pick up any more FAs or make any trades? Are we really that set for the season?
by saladdays on Jan 27, 2009 10:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
A lot of folks around here want us to sign a particular starting pitcher...
I won’t name any names but I will tell you that it rhymes with “Glenn Beets”
by mattybobo on Jan 27, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope the Cards at least
add a reclamation project on the cheap (like a Kris Benson).
by Toddius on Jan 27, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how bad it is
If Anna Benson were married to Ben Sheets, I might have to start a “Don’t Sign Ben Sheets” petition. I can deal with all the steroids articles, and all the DeWallet articles, and all the team-speed articles… but reading about Anna Benson every day when I look at the P-D—that’s where the line is.
by DanUpBaby on Jan 27, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
as long as there are pictures,
what’s so bad about that?
by STLRegalia on Jan 27, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
She's dugout poison, that's why. If she promised to keep her huge pie-hole shut
it might be a different story.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 27, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe it was Miranda Lambert who said:
If you’re handing out misery [insert poison] I’ll be the first in line
If you’re the death of me darlin’ I wanna die
by STLRegalia on Jan 27, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
anna benson makes me puke.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 27, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and I don't even know who she is
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kris Benson's wife
She’s a very attractive lady who likes to wax poetically about topics such as politics, urban strife, literature, and the fact that she would have sex with an entire team of baseball players if Kris ever cheated on her. A wise woman of infinite moral character and intelligence.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 27, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
she looks pretty annoying
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
She has huge...
tracts of land
The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs
by jd is legend on Jan 28, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kris' wife, famous for being hot and garnering media attention unnecessarily
Here’s the infamous FHM interview
Rated R, by the way, for strong language and sexual innuendo and such.
by mojowo11 on Jan 27, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it depends on your personality
whether you liker her or not, but she seems like a fun person to me.
by STLRegalia on Jan 27, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
to me
she seems like someone who thinks she’s a really fun person.
by DanUpBaby on Jan 28, 2009 1:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And therein lies the rub
Hot chicks are a dime a dozen these days. The ones that stand out are the intelligent ones. Anna ain’t one of those.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 28, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if the Cards sign Benson
I might have to boycott the team for a season, or at least until he is released.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 27, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mulder?
minor league contract and ST invite?
by nybirdfan on Jan 27, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
cromit
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
by adiueordie on Jan 27, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's in the best shape of his life
reports from trainers are that his arm flexibility is back and may even be better than his last year or two in Oakland.
*Sarcasm may or may not be involved in the above statement
Screw it, just sign him super cheap and hope something comes out of it
by birdo rojo on Jan 27, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Orlando Hudson
is still available, but I dont see it happening. The cards will pick up another when all things are said and done.
by hghallstar on Jan 27, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not sure why
but I don’t want to sign Hudson; that said, I wouldn’t be mad if we did… I just think Kennedy is just as good
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Teams have backed off of Hudson with "defensive concerns" this offseason
Which is just further proof that his glove isn’t what it used to be. I don’t want him for anything close to what he’s asking.
by mojowo11 on Jan 27, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did his glove get worse
in December? How many groundballs did he boot in his driveway?
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 27, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's understandable
traditionally, his driveway has been one of the roughest places for 2B to field groundballs. When you adjust that out to Luis Castillo’s basement, they number comes down to 5.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 27, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I dunno
Maybe there’s someone going front-office to front-office showing everyone his UZR ratings over the last 3 years?
by mojowo11 on Jan 27, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
plus he got inured recently right?
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is there any question
that with the economy the way it is, FO is telling MO there is no mo’ dough?
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 27, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
FA market
I don’t think the cards are done. They will add a starter, some one kinda like lohse be for opening day. I really think it’ll happen before the start of spring training. With the economy in the shitter, small market teams won’t even sign “big name” types just trying to put butts in seats. The quality will be there, and i think it will be had cheap. Mark it down.
Dewitt & Co don’t think they will get the kind of turn out they have had in the past. I believe they are wrong. The blues games are starting to get good sized crowds, and ppl still aren’t going to games cause of the strike. That being said stl is a baseball town 1st and for most, you don’t even have to build it and people will come. Yes, season tickets will be down, but i would be shocked and i mean SHOCKED if every game doesn’t have close to 90% ticket sales
"When the boogie man goes to sleep he checks his closet for Chuck Norris"
by elirock83 on Jan 27, 2009 11:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Stuff
I still can’t believe the Cards haven’t picked up another starter. They’re primed for contention with a starter and a closer, but what is the front office going to do.
Links- http://morehardball.blogspot.com/2009/01/arm-sag-anagrams.html (Albert Pujols is a saint) and http://morehardball.blogspot.com/2009/01/signs-of-times.html (McGwire taints Big Mac name)
We Should Be GM's @ http://pabaseball.blogspot.com
More Hardball @ http://morehardball.blogspot.com
by GMCarson on Jan 27, 2009 11:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I just have one question
What is the risk in signing Sheets. If he really only wants 2 years 18 million, than it won’t exactly cripple us if he does get injured. If we plan on going into the season with the crappy rotation we have now, how would getting Sheets change that. If he able to pitch even half a season, he would likely be almost 2 wins better than Piniero. If he pitches a full season he would be about 4 wins better. The only possible way that a 2/18 deal doesn’t pay off is if he misses the entire year. Considering his injury history that is a possibility, but it is also a necessary risk that we need to take to be in contention this year.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 27, 2009 11:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Even with his well documented injury history
He has still averaged 27.6 starts per season throughout his career. How could 27 starts by Sheets not be worth $9 mil a year? During ‘02, ’03, and ’04 he made 34 starts each year and averaged 224.8 innings throughout with a 3.76 ERA. He probably won’t ever have that type of endurance ever again in his career, but he can still give quality innings when he does pitch. SHEETS is worth it Mo!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 27, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
pass
having 23% of the budget tied up in carp/sheets is most likely a recipe for disaster.
i’ll take looper and wiggington for sheets $ and keep the #19 pick.
by ball in play on Jan 27, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What is this Wigginton
thing? Suddenly everyone wants Wigginton. It’s like a joke gone wrong.
by spants on Jan 27, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it either
The guy had a great half of a season last year, and contributed to the ‘Stros late surge. But, his defense is sub-par and his offense is nothing to ride home about. He’s got good power, but so do Mather and Freese. The only difference is that Wigginton is “proven”. Whatever the hell that means.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 27, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
.241 ISO last season
is pretty sweet
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
but he’s still a good hitter
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
can't field
and check home/road splits.
Why Wiggonton when they have Freese/Craig/Walrus?
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 27, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
cuz Wiggington can steal AK's job!
maybe Craig can play 2B, I hope so
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but he tried to call Yadi a few years back in a collision at home
and I will NEVER forgive him for that
by Retire51 on Jan 27, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not call KILL
proofread before not after next time…. got it
by Retire51 on Jan 27, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
3.0 war in 08
would rank 4th of 08 stl position players. 3B (glaus out 2 months), 2B (kennedy platoon partner), career 122 ops+ vs lhp’s.
fits some needs if he would take a 1 yr.
by ball in play on Jan 27, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He won't have another 3 WAR season
No chance. This is the first year he has been over 1.5 WAR and his home/road splits were ridiculously pronounced, leading to think that a lot of the power cam from that short porch in left. His career UZR/150’s at second and third are -1.2 and -14.8, he wouldn’t fit the role of utility player and he would only serve to take away at bats from Freese and Mather.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 27, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
better chance than sheets having a 4.6 war season again
besides, the discussion didn’t include prospects/young guys.
i’ll take looper and wiggington for sheets $ and keep the #19 pick.
by ball in play on Jan 27, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
he doesn’t have a better chance. He only hit at Minute Maid.
by spants on Jan 27, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so he starts every game at MM Park
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heck
start him at Cincinnati and Wrigley too while we’re at it
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't agree with that
I think Sheets could have a 4.6 WAR season in a pitchers ballpark if he could stay healthy for a whole season. I’d give Sheets a better chance of doing that than Wigginton hitting 3.0 WAR again if he plays for anyone but the Astros or Rangers.
That said, I definitely wouldn’t say NEVER to anyone repeating a performance, especially when that performance was last year.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe not, but sheets has had 6 of 7 seasons where he was worth 3.5 WAR
or more.
Wigginton — 0.
by tom s. on Jan 27, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
pass
he’s injured. every team that looks at his files backs off.
his 4.6 war split at 100 IP with a replacement gives you a 2.3 war for 9 mil.
loop was a 1.7 for a possible 6 mil. wiggington at 3 mil and a possible 2 war is a combined 3.7 mil for the same $, and keep the #19 pick.
by ball in play on Jan 27, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
phooie
edit—-is a combined 3.7 war for the same $
by ball in play on Jan 27, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
doesn't this
also assume that whoever replaces Wigginton—Freese, presumably for the league minimum—is exactly replacement level? That seems unlikely to me, given the players at work here.
by DanUpBaby on Jan 27, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
really hate to bring
more players into the discussion (but your point is a good one). my orig reply was if he were to spend 9 mil this way, i spend it that way and keep the pick. i forced myself to spend the equal $ for the discussion sake.
chone has freese as a 1.7 war for 09 (at lg minimum). i just lowballed wiggington at a 2 war (lg avg war), so yes, if both hit those marks freese is the better buy. i think that’s what your reply was about?
by ball in play on Jan 27, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just figuring
that 3.7 WARP spread over two positions, presently occupied by two players who will probably play better than replacement level, is worth less—in terms of making the 2009 Cardinals a better club than it is right now—than 3.7 WARP at one of those positions.
by DanUpBaby on Jan 27, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he has pitched an average of about 150 IP over the last four seasons
and his worst mark is 106 innings. so, not sure where you get 100 innings.
That would be well over three WAR there.
and this also presumes that glaus is out the whole season and wigginton plays the whole season. I’m not in the habit of trusting medical reports 100%, but isn’t it a bit early to say no glaus at all this year. I like my 4-5 WAR 3b, thanks.
by tom s. on Jan 27, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no prob
we all get to have our picks :) mine also includes the #19 pick this june, the one you are giving up.
mil offered sabathia big bucks, they had it to spend. he takes the yanks offer. did that budget disappear? why no sheets offer? is it because they know his health the best? hmmmm
by ball in play on Jan 27, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
unless you count an offer of arbitration an "offer"
which I certainly do.
by tom s. on Jan 27, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he's right there for the signing today. where's their offer?
bet we both know that was for compensation on the arb offer.
guess MIL is choosing the pick over sheets huh?
by ball in play on Jan 27, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That
or Sheets really isn’t interested in returning to Milwaukee.
by spants on Jan 27, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
from rotoworld:
“Asked Tuesday if the Brewers are interested in Oliver Perez, general manager Doug Melvin said: "Absolutely not.”
Milwaukee had been linked to Perez in some recent reports, but those appear to have been off base. Melvin has said previously that the Brewers are pretty much up against their payroll limit already."
by tom s. on Jan 28, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
midpoint
between sheets 4.6 war and replacement is 2.3 war at 100 IP each. not well over 3 war.
by ball in play on Jan 27, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but that presumes he only pitches 100 innings.
why presume that when he averages 150 innings?
by tom s. on Jan 27, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if you want
to be in denial that he’s injured, that fine.
i see zero chance of the stl org risking his signing. whew, lol.
by ball in play on Jan 27, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not denying anything. If i were saying sheets is going to
make 33 starts and pitch 250 innings this year, you might be right to say i’m in denial.
i’m using his actual track record. which suggests that he may suffer bizarre injuries, but usually makes 18-25 starts and pitches around 150 innings. if you can see inside his elbow or his shoulder and use your medical degree to know he won’t do something comparable this year, go right ahead. i use his track record to judge his likely outcome. if using actual data and facts is "denial, then I will remain in denial.
by tom s. on Jan 27, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i agree
i’m glad someone else thinks he’s medical report must be pretty bad.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 27, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
andy pettitte has averaged 4.2 war over the last three seasons
and he JUST signed a hugely reduced contract. and he’s pitched 200+ innings each of those years. his medical was fine, as far as anybody knows.
pat burrell signed a $8m/yr contract. adam dunn is still unsigned. so’s bobby abreu.
it’s a bad year to be a free agent if you have any question marks at all.
by tom s. on Jan 27, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really want to sign Sheets
either, but wouldn’t it be true that if Pettitte had the kind of season that would generate 4.2 WAR he would earn $12M with his incentives? I don’t know why they couldn’t look at a guy like Sheets and sign him to a heavily incentivized deal. If he won’t do that then you can bet the medical is muey malo.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 27, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
right
he won’t do a incentive deal, escpecially not one year. all the talk is that he wants at least a two year deal with a possible option.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 27, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or maybe like every other player in sports
he’d prefer a multi-year deal to a one-year.
maybe the pettitte signing will finally tell him he needs to take a one-year incentive deal, or a one-year with an option. but all these theories depend on knowing much more about the negotiations than we do.
by tom s. on Jan 28, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No chance?
He just entered his prime last season and played in at hitters park. You’re telling me that he couldn’t play LF for a team like Texas or Houston and put up a 3.0 WAR? You’re nuts if you think he couldn’t do it again when he just did it last season.
CHONE has him at a .351 wOBA for 2009 — if he were to play second base he’d only have to outperform that slightly with average defense, which he’s capable of, to post a 3.0 WAR. Be careful when predicting a player won’t do something ever again…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The key words in
your statement are “played in a hitters park.” Wigginton could most definitely acheive 3 WAR if he met that condition. The St. Louis Cardinals cannot provide that condition for half his at-bats.
by spants on Jan 27, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
check the multi year park factors
busch 99, minute maid 98
by ball in play on Jan 27, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you know if
you can find “open roof” and “closed roof” park factors anywhere? Doesn’t change the argument, just curious.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 27, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't it only change the argument
if Wigginton, or whomever, played disproportionately with the roof open/closed? As long as he played under both conditions wouldn’t it be the same?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 27, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Only
if he had equal results under both conditions. Were the park factors (whichever ones they were) configured with the roof open or closed?
by spants on Jan 27, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The overall park factor
would be the composite of both sub factors, so it wouldn’t matter what his results were as long as his playing time was evenly spread – I think. If he only played when the roof was open and had a better opportunity to rake then it would make a difference.
Of course, I am assuming the ball travels better with the roof open, that may not be the case.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 27, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
whose park factors?
And for what?
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 27, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Those look like B-R factors to me
If you calc a three-year park factor for Busch vs. Minute Maid (from espn’s park factors) you get:
Busch: HR—>.840, H—>.986, 2B—> .907, 3B—>.931
MinMd: HR—>1.125, H—>.999, 2b—>1.014, 3B—>1.144
I think that means a player is 28% more likely to hit a HR in Minute Maid, 1% more likely to get a hit, 10% more likely to hit a 2B, and 21% more likely to hit a 3B. Lots more singles at Busch.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 27, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
especially for a righty
Minute Maid has that lovely short porch that allowed Craig Biggio to hit 20 homers every year.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 28, 2009 7:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where in that comment did I say we should sign him?
I don’t want to sign him when we have players that are better at the positions that he plays, but to say that he’ll NEVER put up a 3.0 WAR again is a pointedly bad statement. That’s all I was pointing out.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where in that span of that comment...
did I make an indication that the Cardinals should sign him? I was merely pointing out that using the word “never” to describe a performance level of a player who just came off a season at that performance level is absurd.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa.
Chill, man. I was just saying that I didn’t think Wigginton has a shot at 3 WAR with the Cardinals. I was agreeing that a hitters park is necessary for his success.
by spants on Jan 27, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't upset
Just pointing out that I don’t think that he should be a target for the Cardinals.
He probably does need to play in a hitters park to have a shot at being a 3 WAR player, but I think he could be a 2 WAR player at Busch playing second base.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That you commented twice
led me to believe that you were upset.
by spants on Jan 27, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ahhh...
my browser got all confused apparently…I didn’t see the first one post and backed out of the page accidentally…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 5:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he'd have to be a lot better in LF
to put up a 3.0 WAR, because of the replacement level setting. IE, ignoring park factors and defensive proficiency, he’d have to be about 60 OPS points better than what he did last year to have the same WAR.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 27, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
I wouldn’t mind seeing him play some second base
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The potential problem...
is that the Cards may not have $9MM to spend this year, whether it is on Sheets or not. Is there some interview with Mo where he says “We have $10MM more dollars in salary flexibility this year and it’s burning a hole in my pocket”?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 27, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Last year the payroll was 100 mil
This year it is a little over 90. Plus we could do plenty of things with deferred money to make it work. If the front office really wanted Sheets they could afford him.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 27, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They had $9 M
for Brian Fuentes. They damn well better still have that money for Ben Sheets.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 27, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they're saving that for isringhausen. don't be silly.
by tom s. on Jan 27, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yikes! You take that back. Please.
You’re kidding, right? Please tell me you’re kidding. Please.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 27, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They are not saving the money for ReSigning Izzy
They are putting it towards resigning Pinero next year.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 27, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, now.
You all are scaring me. I’m going to quietly sign off and step away from the computer.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 27, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That
and their working on an extension for Adam Kennedy.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Jan 27, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am starting a
SIGN PINERO NOW petition
any takers???
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
by nomar34 on Jan 27, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As long as it's on...
Bleedcubbieblue…
I’m in!!!
Sometimes I wonder,
"Why is that frisbee getting bigger?"
...and then it hits me!!
by cardzfanbub on Jan 27, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you.
That’s 9 mil they didn’t spend on an overrated left-handed closer this year, and there’s 7.5 mil they won’t be paying Pinero next year. If we have to have a telethon to raise the other 1.5 mil, I’m in for ten bucks.
What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray
by Tupelo on Jan 27, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
BEN SHEETS
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 27, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just for the record
what was piniero’s deal?
2/14?
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
NO Garland, NO Wolf, NO Looper!
by jealousblues on Jan 27, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
are you saying he's gone after 2009?
crosses fingers
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 27, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What do you think
Pettitte’s incentive-laden contract does for Sheets’ market? Whatever it is, it’s got to be a positive for the chances of his demands dropping to Mo’s notion of risk-worthiness.
by liam on Jan 27, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OT: Watching MLB's Prime 9
it’s a snow day and I’ve got MLB on. Ozzie is coming in at number 5. Too high, too low?
mel
by mel1975 on Jan 27, 2009 11:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I only caught the last 5...and
I forgot to say, it was their top 9 shortstops of all time.
here were the top 5:
5.Ozzie
4.Ernie Banks
3. Cal Ripken
2. Arod
1. Honus Wagner
mel
by mel1975 on Jan 27, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tough to argue with that list...
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good spot for the Wiz
considering the four in front of him carried big bats, although #1 played in the deadball era. Even so, Honus had 101 HR, 73 more than Ozzie.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 27, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
interesting
I was wondering how much emphasis the community would put on offense versus defense and how the two balance out to make a complete player.
mel
by mel1975 on Jan 27, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll argue
Ernie Banks gets all kinds of accolades, and yeah, he was a great player, but he only played 45% of his games at SS. 512 HRs is awesome, no doubt, but he hit less than 300 of them as a SS. Based on what he did as a SS, he is still damn good, but not #4 all time.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Jan 27, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What about A-Rod then?
He’s only hit 345 of his homers as a SS, and he probably won’t get too many more games at SS the rest of his career, if any at all. He played one more season at SS than Banks did and he also played in a bandbox park in Texas for three seasons where he piled up 156 home runs. If you have a problem with Banks then you have to have the same problem with A-Rod, who will probably have fewer than 45% of his AB’s at SS when it’s all said and done. Interestingly, they both moved positions at nearly the same point in their careers…
I believe only Ripken and A-Rod are ahead of Banks for homers while playing SS, so I think it’s tough to not have him ranked #4 on that list.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so, are you all saying that
offense is the deciding factor?
mel
by mel1975 on Jan 27, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying that
All of those guys were above average defenders — every one of them. I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to say that they guys who could consistently OPS above .850 are more valuable to their team as an above average defender as Ozzie would be as a .750 OPS hitter and a once-in-a-lifetime defensive player.
I would also say that the era and team you played on makes a difference. Ozzie was worth more to those Cardinal teams because of the way they were built and where they played than he would be to, say, the 2007 Texas Rangers.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That makes a ton of sense
and was sort of the way I was reasoning the list out in my mind, so it’s interesting to see it put that way.
Somehow, though, the fact that he was so stellar on defense seems like it should move him higher than 5, but I’m not sure I have a logical argument for moving those other guys.
mel
by mel1975 on Jan 27, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Decent points
And yeah, I guess I would have to take another look at A-Rod. I’m not going to discount his HRs too much because he hit a lot in TX. Banks played in Wrigley Field, home to many a cheap homer in the alleys.
One thing, and it goes more towards just overall ability, and not necessarily the "best SS’ argument, is that ARod did move to third, while Banks went all the way to the end of the spectrum at first base. Obviously, offensive production from a 3Bman is more valuable than from a 1Bman, which is what Banks was for the last 10 years of his career. (This argument could be applied to Ripken, too, who ended up his career at third…)
And, I’m not sure how, for shortstops, the HR totals should be as much of a factor as you seem to make them.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Jan 27, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2 quotes of yours
512 HRs is awesome, no doubt, but he hit less than 300 of them as a SS. Based on what he did as a SS, he is still damn good, but not #4 all time.
And, I’m not sure how, for shortstops, the HR totals should be as much of a factor as you seem to make them.
You seem to be the one hung up on homers, not me. I was simply refuting your argument that because he didn’t play his whole career there he doesn’t deserve mention on the list.
For the record, Banks was considered an above average defensive SS for most of his career there. He was moved to first base to extend his career because he was such a good hitter — you didn’t see a lot of 35 year old productive middle infielders back then, and you don’t even see that many now. Also, his move to first coincided with the Cubs bringing up a pretty damn good third baseman by the name of Ron Santo, so moving him there would have been worse for the team — they didn’t have a good first baseman at the time, so that’s where he was moved. If the Yankees had, say, 2003 Scott Rolen at 3B, they would move A-Rod to first base as well.
All of the players listed in the top five were above average defenders for most of their careers at the SS position. Ozzie was by far the best, but Ozzie’s lack of a bat does hurt him when stacking him up with Ripken, Banks, and Rodriguez.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All over the place
These arguments seem to be weaving around each other, which is understandable and to be expected in any “best” argument, since it is totally subjective…
I don’t get your points about Banks being moved to extend his career. What does that have to do with how he performed as a shortstop?
You are correct about Santo blocking Banks’ move to third, but that doesn’t defeat that fact that he had to move, period. And, he was only 31 years old when he made that move – to first base.
This little back and forth illustrates one of the problems of doing a “best” ranking by position. There are so many guys in baseball who are naturally identified with one position, but then when people sit down to look at numbers to make the comparisons things get blurry because the player switched positions. How about Pete Rose, where does he go? Robin Yount? Paul Molitor? Rod Carew? A-Rod in a few years (as you pointed out)?
How about Johnny Bench, he played the equivalent of almost 3 seasons in the OF and 3B. Yogi Berra – 260 games in the OF. Those guys are different than Rose, Yount, Molitor and Carew because they spent the vast majority of their time in one position.
Which gets me back to my original point – I know Banks is “a shortstop” but he played less than half of his games there. For me, when a guy does that, I can only look at the numbers he put up while he was at that position – especially when the switch made was from the second most important defensive position to the least important defensive position.
Having said that, Banks is still a top 9 SS, but I’d put him lower than #4.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Jan 27, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
even if you count his 1B numbers
It doesn’t add a lot to his “of all time” case. It’s like adding Lee Stevens’s career to the end of a great shortstop’s.
p.s. where is Arky Vaughan?
by DanUpBaby on Jan 27, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I see what you're missing...
You are correct about Santo blocking Banks’ move to third, but that doesn’t defeat that fact that he had to move, period. And, he was only 31 years old when he made that move – to first base.
Banks was moved because he was the Cubs best player and meal ticket, and they wanted to extend his career by a few years by giving him a less taxing position to play. Most middle infielders in Banks’ time didn’t play much past the age of 33 or 34, while Banks went on to play another 8 years and put asses in the Wrigley Field seats.
If you take just his years as a SS, like you say, he’s still one of the top 5 SS of all time. Banks and A-Rod are the only two SS in the history of the game that have multiple 40 HR seasons while playing the position. You could easily induct him to the Hall of Fame based on his first 9 seasons as a player. I don’t factor being able to play the position for 15-20 MLB seasons with how good you were when you played the position.
I haven’t seen the whole list, who would you be putting ahead of Banks if you were moving him down the list from where he is now. Ozzie, obviously, and that argument has it’s merits, I just don’t happen to agree with them. But who else?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know I'm really late to this discussion
but I just have to defend Ozzie as being a better SS than Ripken. I wish we had advanced defensive metrics to prove it, but I think Ozzie’s ability to affect the momentum of so many games by turning hits into outs, or even double plays, outweighs Ripken’s superior offensive numbers.
For example, Ripken was only 208 runs above average for his entire career and for the last nine years he played was 14.7 runs below average. While Ozzie was a very pedestrian 73.6 runs below average for his career, much of that was accomplished (decomplished?) early in his career. From 1984-1992 he was 45.7 runs above average while saving a jillion runs with his glove.
I know range factor is not a good stat for making any definitive claims about defensive prowess, but it is all we have when comparing players of the previous century. For his career Ozzie averaged a little over 5.2 chances per 9 innnings. To put that in perspective, not a single MLB regular SS averaged over 4.9 in 2008. That means in an average season for Ozzie of about 1300 innings he averaged nearly 50 more plays than the next best guy, or a little over 70 more plays than Ripken if the innings are held constant.
Think about that – over the 17 seasons Ozzie played shortstop he made about 1190 plays that Ripken likely would not have made. I know we don’t have the data to accurately quantify that, but I bet it more than makes up for the roughly 280 runs difference in offensive production. To put it another way, if Ozzie had played exactly the same innings as Ripken at SS, he could have failed to successfully convert a chance in his last 1,904 innings (about 1.5 seasons) and still have converted as many chances as Ripken did.
I don’t want anyone to think I am slamming Ripken or saying he was a bad shortstop. Ozzie was just that much better. The difference would probably be even larger if Ozzie hadn’t played so many games on turf where the ball gets through the infield faster.
I think Banks and A Rod were/are both definitely better than Ripken as well.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 27, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I never really got to thinking about that...
I think Ripken could definitely be moved down. That said, his streak helps him somewhat simply because it’s an incredibly hard thing to do, especially for a middle infielder. When you think about the fact that he really never hurt his team by going out there 2100+ straight times, it’s a pretty amazing feat.
I agree with you that Ozzie was more than likely the best defensive SS of all time. I do, however, think that he, more than a lot of other SS of his generation, got the greatest benefit out of playing on turf. Ground balls got to him quicker, but he was also able to move quicker laterally and be able to pinpoint the hop he wanted to take because of the predictability of the turf. The number of balls he one hopped to first on the turf from deep in either hole amounted to a lot of outs that may not get made on grass. He also played with two extremely talented defenders on either side of him for that period that you talk about (1984-1992), which also was a great benefit to him because he was able to take more chances on where he set up before the pitch.
I’m not trying to take anything away from Ozzie’s accomplishments — there’s a reason that the guy is a first ballot Hall of Famer and will always be my favorite Cardinal. I grew up watching him and am still consistently amazed at many of the plays he was able to make.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
spring training cliches
“best shape of my life”……..oh yeah, and alot more headed are way like
-" the past is behind me"
- “he’s learned from his mistakes”
- “fresh start”
- “the best 25 players head north”
- “we’ll take it one game at a time”
this probably needs an entire thread
by Hinkster on Jan 27, 2009 12:02 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
"i'm just tired"
“i got up at six am… i only had two glasses of wine…”
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
by adiueordie on Jan 27, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
ABCDEFIUOEWRIINSFDUOOEWRWOJJOMNE)IOKAOKSOKS&Z
Was that right?
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 27, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol @ parenthesis
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
NO Garland, NO Wolf, NO Looper!
by jealousblues on Jan 27, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh!
I laughed for like 30 seconds straight after reading this! Bravo!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 27, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pedro martinez
Any thoughts? Has MO shown any interest or is he done?
by hghallstar on Jan 27, 2009 12:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Pedro?
Pedro seems done to me, hell he probably even thinks he’s done. But he’s a smart pitcher that doesn’t need velocity to get guys out because he has movement on good control. If he were actually healthy, he might help. It would have to be on a low risk contract like 1 year and $3M with incentives.
We Should Be GM's @ http://pabaseball.blogspot.com
More Hardball @ http://morehardball.blogspot.com
by GMCarson on Jan 27, 2009 12:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?
Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote.
by Gregatron on Jan 27, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did I piss
you off at some point or something?
by spants on Jan 27, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote
or something like that
by vivaelpujols on Jan 27, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, Pedro struck out 89 in 107 innings last season, so he still has something left in his arm.
He’d be a decent play at a very low price, but only if Sheets, Perez, and Looper fall off the table, in that order.
by Czechguardsman on Jan 28, 2009 7:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously!
it is easier to comprehend if the reply is used.
Also, some NOOBS don’t yet know about the reply button. I was happy when people asked me to use the reply button.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 28, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He reportedly turned down a 7 mil base deal
He still thinks he can ptich
by vivaelpujols on Jan 27, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions