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Anatomy of a Closer

As the time for pitchers and catchers to report approaches, it’s becoming increasingly likely that the ’09 closer is already on the Cardinals roster. Though Chris Perez assumed that role for part of ’08, he’s hardly a shoo-in for the role this year, however. Many here, and elsewhere, like Jason Motte for the role in large part b/c of his 98+ mph fastball.

Recently, Harry Pavlidis over at BtB analyzed the current state of the Cards’ relief to help determine to whom he’d turn (among Perez, Motte, and Carp). In short, and that’s unfair to Harry b/c the post is definitely worth reading, he agrees w/ Tony that the Cards would be better served w/ Brandon Lyon or Juan Cruz than any of those 3 but, if he was forced to select from those 3 only, he’d probably go w/ Motte. As we all know by now, Motte’s "weakness" is the lack of a decent secondary pitch. He’s got a tremendous fastball, but as Kevin Goldstein from BP said the other day, "big-leaguers can hit a 99 mph pitch when they know it's coming."

Goldstein’s got Motte ranked #10 on the Cards’ top 11 prospects while Perez is ranked third. Goldstein seems to like Perez’s arsenal a little better than Motte’s despite his inconsistency finding the strike zone – Perez’s perceived weakness. Additionally, all 3 regulars over at futureredbirds have Perez ranked slightly higher than Motte on their respective prospect lists. Over at minorleagueball, John Sickels has Perez ranked #3 and Motte ranked #7 on his Cards’ top 20 prospects list. There seems to be little debate about the 2 pitchers in terms of what they lack. With Perez, it’s consistency finding the strike zone and for Motte, it’s consistency w/ a secondary pitch.

We all probably know Motte’s story by now. He was a Cardinal farmhand who caught fastballs rather than tossed him and, b/c of how hard he threw the ball and the fact that he couldn’t hit a lick, he was moved to the mound. So despite the fact that he and Perez have been pitching in the Cards’ farm system for about the same amount of time, Motte is 3 years older than Perez (26-23). Because Motte has so little experience at the big league level, it almost doesn’t make sense to compare what they’ve done for the Cards. Still, Motte’s 11 IP were impressive ones.

ERA HR/9 BB/9 K/9 AVG OBP SLG
Perez 3.46 1.08 4.75 9.07 .224 .324 .427
Motte 0.82 0.00 2.45 13.09 .139 .205 .139

Remember, as we fall over ourselves drooling over the prospect of Jason Motte setting the season saves record in ’09 – that’s 11 innings. Settle down! Let’s look at their minor league numbers for comparison’s sake.

ERA H/9 HR/9 BB/9 K/9
Perez 2.72 5.04 0.66 5.94 12.14
Motte 2.90 8.36 0.60 3.06 11.86

Did you realize that Perez’s K/9 was higher than Motte’s in the minors? I must admit that I didn’t and their HR/9 are about the same as are their ERAs. The only material difference is Perez’s walk rate. Still, I think a more instructive way to look at the two players would be to compare their performances at similar levels of the minors.

Perez was drafted out of the University of Miami in 2006 as a supplemental first rounder and was sent immediately upon signing to Class A Quad Cities. He’s never pitched at a lower level in the Cards’ system. Motte, on the other hand, since he was a converted catcher, spent some time pitching for State College in the New York-Penn League before moving up to Quad Cities. Furthermore, Perez finished ’06 w/ Quad Cities and skipped high A ball, beginning the 2007 season in Springfield at AA ball. Motte, being less experienced on the mound, pitched 10 innings in high A w/ Palm Beach before being promoted to Springfield.

Year Level IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 AVG FIP
Perez 2006 A 29.1 9.82 5.83 0.00 .195 3.37
Motte 2006 A 12.2 9.24 2.13 0.71 .309 3.12

Year Level IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 AVG FIP
Perez 2007 AA 40.2 13.72 6.20 0.66 .129 3.77
Motte 2007 AA 49.0 11.57 4.04 0.55 .207 2.96

Year Level IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 AVG FIP
Perez 2007 AAA 13.0 9.00 9.00 1.38 .141 6.43
Perez 2008 AAA 25.1 13.50 4.26 1.07 .201 3.28
Motte 2008 AAA 66.2 14.85 3.51 0.81 .254 2.29

Three things stand out when looking at these numbers. First, though we are in awe of Motte’s fastball, Perez seems as able to get a strikeout as Motte. They both have filthy stuff and have dominated minor leaguers to this point. Second, Perez is clearly more wild and slightly more prone to the homer. Third, b/c of the higher walk rate and homer rate, FIP doesn’t like Perez as much as it does Motte. That’s telling.

Let’s look at what statcorner has to say about their tra*s:

Year Level tra*
Perez 2007 AA 4.42
Perez 2007 AAA 4.89
Perez 2008 AAA 4.62
Perez 2008 MLB 4.39

Year Level tra*
Motte 2007 A+ 4.62
Motte 2007 AA 3.94
Motte 2008 AAA 3.39
Motte 2008 MLB 4.29

Again, statcorner and tra* seems to like Motte a little bit better. I have to say, when I embarked on this journey, I was wanting to see whether minor league hitters have fared better against Motte’s 1 pitch arsenal or Perez’s wildness and the results have been pretty similar. The predictive stats, however, which btw can’t tell whether Motte throws 1 pitch or 7, all seem to like Motte a little better b/c, if nothing else, he gets it over the plate consistently.

I’ll admit also that I don’t really know of any (basically) 1 pitch relievers, successful or unsuccessful today, to which to compare Motte. He hasn’t pitched enough to have any comps over at baseball-reference. I did, however, search for major league relievers who threw 20+ innings last season and sorted by walk rates from high to low to see if any of them (w/ the worst walk rates) had been successful. The answer: not really. Clay Hensley of the Padres had a BB rate of 6.09 and an FIP of 3.84. Not stellar. The Mets just traded for J.J. Putz. He had a 5.44 BB rate and an FIP of 3.78. Maybe that’s Perez’s best comp. Putz can be deadly when he’s healthy and throwing strikes and, if he’s not, he’s merely OK. Jeff Samardzija of the Cubs had a 4.88 BB/9 and an FIP of 3.06. Great fastball, great slider, shaky control? Hmmm…. Sounds like young pitcher to me.

How about this guy? He has a good fastball and a deadly slider and had a BB/9 last year of 4.54 and an FIP of …2.41! Wow! That gives me some hope. Even Carlos Marmol’s BB rate was 4.23 – not exactly Mariano Rivera, is it?

I guess the truth is that we’ll never know what’ll happen until we stick them out there this February and March (and then April, May, etc.) and see what happens. I’m ok w/ that. I don’t expect either to be Brad Lidge but I do have some faith that, whether it’s Motte in the 8th and Perez in the 9th or vice-versa, we’ve got a pretty good back end of the pen developing.

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End of the rotation

is not the problem, the starting pitching and 2B are the problems. I like the approach of letting the young players have a shot and I believe that they will be fine. I could even get excited if McClellan actually got a chance to start and I could really get excited if Schumaker actually gets a shot at second base and Rasmus starts in CF. I would also like to see Mather get more time at 3B. He played there a little last year and looked respectable.

Cards need to quit worrying about the backend of the pen and start worrying about the rotation.

by Warcard on Jan 22, 2009 7:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

2b

I don’t think 2b is as much of a problem as people think. Kennedy might not have hit well last season, but i expect he will regress to the mean a bit. On top of that he provides a lot of value with his glove.

by BigJawnMize on Jan 22, 2009 10:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Regress to the mean

Kennedy didn’t hit well last year, but he should regress to the mean. Yet Kennedy had a career-best defensive year last year and he won’t regress to the mean?

I don’t know what to think about Kennedy. If the defensive revelation is real, then hooray. But if it isn’t, I don’t really think I have any faith in his bat at this point in his career. I believe it’s gone and not coming back.

ATTN: Brendan Ryan. This would be a good year for you to break out offensively…

by mojowo11 on Jan 22, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

his uzr/150 was only slightly better in 2008

than it was in 2004/2005. He’s always been a good defender.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 22, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

That's nice

His 2008 was also WAAAAAAY higher than both 2007 and 2006. And, if you’ll recall, he was a lot younger back in 2004-2005…

by mojowo11 on Jan 22, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and he had knee surgery in 2007.

for an injury sustained in late 2005. So 2008 certainly could be an outlier, but I don’t think 2006/2007 really prove anything; his performance in 2009 probably has more to do with his health than anything else (and I agree about BR, but I’m afraid he’s missed the bus).

FWIW, Kennedy won’t “regress to the mean”, either offensively or defensively. He’ll regress to his true skill level, whatever that is. (and of course, that’s a function of health). “Regression to the mean” is the statistical tool used when sample size errors make it difficult to measure this true talent. By inserting data for a comparable population of players, you get a better estimate of a player’s skill level than you would otherwise get from a small sample.

I know, it’s banal, but it’s a pet peeve.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 22, 2009 7:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course you are correct...

I ment to say that he probably will progress to his normal skill level with the bat and hopefully maintain the majority of his skill level with his glove.

by BigJawnMize on Jan 23, 2009 10:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

when did mather play 3b last year

i don’t remember that.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Jan 22, 2009 10:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He had 3 innings there last year. But he does have a bit of experience at 3rd through his MiLB career.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

It doesn’t matter if the bullpen is great if the score is 10-1 in the 3rd inning.

by JShell73 on Jan 22, 2009 10:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and exactly

how many times did that happen last season?

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn’t trying to say that it happened a lot last year. I was making the point that it doesn’t matter that your bullpen is awesome if you’re trotting mediocre starting pitching out there giving up gopher ball after gopher ball. Does it make much sense to have Putz, Rivera, and Nathan in your bullpen if you have to put a bunch of #5 starters out there every day?

by JShell73 on Jan 22, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well

If you had all three of them, you could shorten a lot of games to 6 innings, which would allow you to have a more mediocre staff because your team would have 3 innings to play catch up 2/3 of the time.

I don’t think it’s an excellent way to build a club, and investing that much money in three relief pitchers won’t get you the return you would get from investing the same money in starting pitchers, but it is useful to have a great bullpen.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ugh

I just thought of that Phillies game when Colonel was hurt and got shelled

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the kids will fair well also. I’d rather them get a hard hitting 2nd baseman to put runs on the board. Last year the bullpen gave away more games than any other team, but it’s not like they gave up 5-6+ run leads everynight. Wasn’t it mostly squandering small leads?
My point is, bump up the runs per game to take pressure off the bullpen.

by CardFan@theLake on Jan 22, 2009 7:39 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

yes, it was mostly small leads

hence all the blown saves.
tony la russa said the same thing, essentially. score more runs, take the pressure off the pen.

i don’t think you can go in to every game and expect to score 5 or 6 runs, because most major league pitching staffs aren’t as porous as ours was last year.

however, i do think “the kids” will fair well, as you said. between perez, motte, and kinney, two of them should be able to handle the eighth and ninth.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Jan 22, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it would be great to score more runs

but that wasn’t the problem for the most part last year. It was a problem when TLR insisted on playing Ank while injured and indulging in the OF Follies, but the lineup was the strength of the team.

The offense was fourth in the NL in runs scored and WPA, while the rotation was sixth in WPA. However, the bullpen was 13th in the league in WPA and was an overall negative at -1.41. We didn’t really play in any more close games than anyone else (75) and our record in close games was just as good as anyone in the league except Milwaukee.

We need to pitch better, period.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 22, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

+1

Sign someone who can pitch, then let this team play.

by IL and StL Fan on Jan 22, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

I really didn’t understand playing Ank while hurt… or many of the other managerial foibles last year… it definitely cost us. I think they had too much of a Research and Development mentality last year and didn’t do what they needed to do at times. that said, the problem was just as much with injuries, so I’m hoping this year we’ll shake that off our back.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've gotta think the macho

pro athlete culture kicks in quite often in these situations. Rolen used to cross the white lines every day even though he couldn’t lift his damn arm. And Izzy, geez, don’t get me started on him. There’s gotta be something the organization can do to give hurt players an incentive to, you know, actually tell someone they’re hurt instead of being hard-asses. Save the Kirk Gibson heroics for the playoffs, guys. If you’re hurting in June, tell the manager.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 22, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

they are all afraid

of losing their jobs to whoever fills in and/or getting a rep as soft.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 22, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They should worry more about

winning, less about themselves.

by spants on Jan 23, 2009 2:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing pi$$ed me off more last year than...

trotting AK, Scrappy Doo, and Floppy to the OF late last year while we had actual OFs sitting on the bench or in the minors. TLR lost me then. If I were Nick Stav, I would have slit my wristbands.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 22, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

that was ridiculous, it’s like we gave up a month early

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 5:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why the fervor to get a 2b? Kennedy is just fine. Is he going to be an offensive powerhouse? No. But is he going to pay for himself with the glove? Yes.

We were near top in runs last year, it’s not exactly easy to “just add more”.

Our BP’s demise was overexposure to the assets who could do their job because we carried assets on the roster who couldn’t.

Izzy’s issues caused Franklin to be put in a place he didn’t belong, Flores caused Villone to be overworked. When Villone went south then KMac started getting a heavier workload against lefties, he collapsed etc, etc.

You make a better case to get another SP then it does a “hard hitting 2b”

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if you really look out there, there are few 2b names that are likely better than kennedy

and VERY few that could be pried free — I don’t think Utley or Pedroia is coming here, for instance.

Short of the Marlins selling Uggla or the Orioles selling Roberts, there aren’t any great names out there that I see. Cano was an okay but not great name — might have a high ceiling but might also have a pretty meh season.

These hard-hitting 2b’s who would present a dramatic advantage over kennedy are hard to spot in the wild.

by tom s. on Jan 22, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cano if I recall correctly would have cost us Waino. and I agree. Kennedy may be overpaid and isn’t an offensive monster, but he’s not a mountain of suck like some make him out to be. He earned that in ’07, ’08 was a quite decent year for him.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

interestingly enough

I watched MLB Network’s 2008 NL Best Plays show last night. They had the 9 best plays from each position on the diamond. For the second base section, three—count ’em, 3!—were from the Redbirds.

Two were Kennedy, and the last—and highest ranking, at number 3—was Aaron freakin’ Miles.

Just thought it was interesting, the position we fans complain about most got the most defensive love.

Although, the credibility of the show is definitely in question because Ankiel’s two throws in Colorado were just 5th on the list.

by Jhusk on Jan 22, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

focusing on the outliers

the mean was below avg

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Jan 22, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good post, chuck

To quote, well, you…If you can get people out on a regular basis, you can be a closer. I think either of these guys could do the job, but I’m leaning towards Perez getting the first crack just because that slider is devastating on its good days. Now, if Motte’s secondary offerings catch up to his lethal fastball, then I would probably have to reconsider. 97-100 is pretty hard to argue with, especially with the command he’s shown in his brief pitching career.

Either way, this team doesn’t need to go hunt down some poor pitcher because he has “closing experience.” They have plenty of in-house options. It seems I’ve said this before…hmm…

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 22, 2009 8:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Kinney?

I’m not as good at finding the number’s, but does someone have compareable number’s for Josh Kinney to these guys? I’m not sure if he could be the closer, but he’s got to be considered for the part.

Good post though

by Gibson on Jan 22, 2009 9:07 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

+1

I’d like to see his minor and major league numbers compared to these guys because I think that he has a good chance to win the job in ST.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball Cube

Long story short—-MiLB overall: 8.7 K/9, 3.4 BB/9, .4 HR/9

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 22, 2009 9:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's what I thought

He’s doesn’t strike out a lot of guys like Motte and Perez, but he rarely gives up the long ball, something which I like in a closer. I’d almost rather use Motte and Perez situationally, especially Motte, because they can get the big K, whereas Kinney seems more like closer material because he’s not going to surrender the long ball — you’re going to have to put together a couple of hits to get a run home on him.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well yeah

But you’re also more likely to “put a couple hits together” against Kinney.

Not that I entirely disagree, I really don’t see why if going into the season all of these guys know their role is defined as Whenever®, they’re all happy to be in the majors anyway, we can’t go with a three headed bullpen.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 22, 2009 9:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that would be a good way to go

But you know that Tony isn’t going to go for it. He’s always had a “ninth inning guy” designated since Eckersley, and one of them will win the job this year as well.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fwiw

dave duncan pretty much flat out said if they didn’t end up signing a vet to close, it would be a closer by committee, and he named perez, motte, and kinney as the three being considered. he said whoever “matched up best” with whatever team they were playing would get the ninth.

sorry, no link. it was on 101.1 in st. louis a couple weeks ago.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Jan 22, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Personally,

I would rather see Perez as the annointed closer, Kinney used as a setup man, and Motte used in that Springer-like role of fireman.

Perez has been a closer his whole life. Stats be damned a bit here, because he knows what the job entails and he knows how to get it done. He was a very capable closer at Miami, and again all through the minor leagues.

Motte has one pitch. That’s it. One pitch. But what a pitch it is. Wouldn’t he be the perfect guy to bring in the game with runners on and needing a strikeout? He doesn’t walk a lot of people, and he can really bring the cheese when he wants to.

Kinney has some major league experience in high leverage situations, and his slider (if he still has it) is a really high quality pitch. He also doesn’t walk a lot of people, and can probably buzz through an inning pretty easily enough.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jan 22, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i still don't get the whole

“what the job entails” meme. They play your song, you go out to the mound, get some guys out, don’t give up runs, and cash your paycheck.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 22, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

closing requires

a whollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllle other mentality, knowing that if you don’t get the job done, your team is probably gonna lose.

It may seem like the same thing, but getting three outs in the 7th is a lot different than getting three outs in the 9th.

by Jhusk on Jan 22, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree with that theory

I think it helps to have a certain mentality, but it’s not necessary to have that to be successful.

Getting three outs in the 7th inning of a one run game isn’t much different than getting three outs in the ninth inning of the same game. In terms of win shares, the two situations aren’t hardly different at all.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and in fact, could be less stressful.

if we play philadelphia, and the heart of the order comes up in the seventh or the eighth, is it less stressful to pitch to that threesome than the miscellaneous nobodies at the end of their order?

how about houston? is it more or less stressful to pitch to berkman and lee than to pitch to whoever finishes out the lineup?

and if it’s 3-2, regardless of whatever inning, a one-run lead is a one-run lead. the only difference is that your offense has a better chance to bail you out.

but the conventional wisdom says you should have an okay pitcher pitch to utley/victorino/howard, or berkman/lee/tejada in the seventh or the eighth and your best pitcher pitch to nobodies in the ninth. make sense of that.

by tom s. on Jan 22, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the main difference I think

is that when someone is closing, you might see some better pinch hitters

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

dude

any time anyone is pitching, the game is on the line

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was a closer in high school for a season

In my experience, it’s not that different. It’s not like you try any less hard to get every batter out when you’re starting or pitching in the 8th inning.

by mojowo11 on Jan 22, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I would counter with this question.

How is it that several great setup men have made such a horrible transition to closing? Their fastballs and breaking pitches haven’t changed. Their mechanics are the same. The only difference is the inning that they are pitching in, yet they still cannot get it done.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jan 22, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

First off, I didn't say GREAT setup men.

I said great setup men. There are lots of guys that are great setup men, but bad closers. Our own Ryan Franklin has been a very good setup man, and a bad closer. Octavio Dotel was a great setup man, but a bad closer. Ditto for our own Russ Springer.
I can’t find a site that lists the major league holds leaders over the last few years, but I’m sure there are more than that.

My point is that there is a psychological element to closing. It is a job that carries its own special set of responsibilities. Chris Perez is used to that job. That’s what he’s done his whole life. Jason Motte hasn’t even pitched very long, much less closed. As a matter of fact, he was Perez’s setup man in the minors!

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jan 22, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

franklin was a very good setup man during his 2007 career year

is he a lifelong good setup man, or did he happen to pitch 10x better than usual in 2007? If he’d been closing in 2007, maybe he would have been a great closer. In fact, his inning-by-inning splits show he pitched better in the 9th in 2008 than in the 8th.

and I don’t remember us ever giving a substantial closing role to springer.

i don’t think we should ignore the fact that there’s huge variability from year to year with relievers — see gagne, izzy, lidge . . . . you’d need to look for several examples of guys who were consistently great (not GREAT) setup men but consistently poor closers. not pitcher A had a good year in setup in 2004 and a bad year closing in 2005.

by tom s. on Jan 22, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

franklin does not help your argument

in 2008:

in save situations: 39 IP, FIP 4.61, K/9 6.46, ER 16
non-save situations: 39.2 IP, FIP 4.73, K/9 5.23, ER 15

He was a slightly better pitcher in save situations than he was in non-save situations; he gave up a few more HR in save situations, but walked half as many and struck more out.

His problem with being a “closer” is that he’s just not an elite pitcher, which is what we’ve come to expect the word “closer” to mean.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 22, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

none of the pitchers you named

pitched any differently in closer roles vs setup roles. what changes is the perception/expectation of the pitcher. please show me some data that shows that these pitchers were dominant in non closing roles but somehow this changed. in fact, i want to say one of our bloggers here researched this very thing and found that in fact there was no difference. the label of choker or unable to close is just what we place on pitchers who are just frankly not very good.

by FunkeeC on Jan 22, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

First off -- you did say "great setup men"

Second, I can name plenty of “good to great” set-up men who went on to be above average closers. Ready?

Mariano Rivera
Brad Lidge
Tom Gordon
Jeff Reardon
Randy Myers
John Wetteland
Bob Wickman
Keith Foulke
B.J. Ryan
Brian Fuentes
J.J. Putz
Joakim Soria
Eddy Guadardo

Holy s***, that’s quite a list of pitchers isn’t it?

Plus, I could name just about every guy who finished games prior to 1980, before teams starting grooming players to be closers.

Have there been some guys, like Mike Timlin, who were just better off in the set-up role? Absolutely, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the norm. As you can see here — those type of players are the exception.

I would disagree with you on Dotel — he could be a great closer if he was healthy. When he’s been healthy he’s been a good closer, that just hasn’t happened very often. Franklin isn’t very good, period. Springer has been a pretty average pitcher until the last couple of seasons.

I agree that pitching in high leverage situations is sort of a skill — you have to have a short term memory and thick skin. It also helps to be a tad cocky or arrogant. Like Crash Davis told Nuke: “Fear and arrogance”. But that situation isn’t a whole lot different in the 7th inning with 2 out and runners on than it is in the ninth with nobody out and the inning’s leadoff hitter striding up to the plate.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions   4 recs

rec'd

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it's a bit like free throws in basketball.

the process is the same. the mechanics are essentially the same. you do run into the odd player with some sort of mental block about free throws, who can shoot from the field just fine. but generally good shooters from the field put up good free throws.

by tom s. on Jan 22, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There are several places that I would like to toss Franklin

but “in the mix” is definitely not one of them.

I kid. He’s a decent pitcher, and I think he would be a good candidate to take KMac’s role in the bullpen if/when Kyle goes to the rotation.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jan 22, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kinney...I like him berry much...

…but he no help us close ballgames…

I believe, very adamantly, that our back end needs at least one stabilizer in the form of a veteran. I am happy to hand over closing duties to one of the young guys, particularly Perez. Meanwhile, I would still like to the the Birds pick up another SP and use Spring Training to get a handle on our 2B situation, i.e. moving Schumaker or trying out another IF there (Freese, Barden?).

Am I loco, or is it at all plausible to move a 3B to 2B? If we have such an uber-talented positional jam at 3B, why not at least try to use these skill sets elsewhere?

"Yo bartender! Jobu needs a refill." - Harris, Major League

by Pedro Cerrano on Jan 22, 2009 10:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if any of those 3bmen could play 2b

they wouldn’t be at 3b in the first place.

same with skip. there’s a reason he was moved out of the infield. he can’t field a groundball worth a shit, apparently.

if skip or freese/craig/wallace ever spend any time at 2b in a major league game, i’ll buy a franklin for everyone on this site.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Jan 22, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to agree...

but check out Dave Cameron’s take on this at FanGraphs. Really interesting stuff.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2b_and_3b

by IA Card on Jan 22, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree

that people usually play at the defensive position they can handle that is the most difficult on the defensive spectrum. However, in Skip’s case, if the GM wants to take a look at him there, then I think that’s a great idea. I don’t think Freese, Craig or Wallace is a reasonable expectation. Craig and Wallace are both considered to have below average range for a 3B…and 2Bs both need to have very good range. Plus, Wallace is a big guy – he makes Jeff Kent look small. Skip is worth trying in spring training, with the other guys, we’re probably grasping at straws.

by Toddius on Jan 22, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're probably right..

and I certainly agree on Wallace, but I’d like to see Freese and Craig get some time there before we rule them out. I think Freese has a better chance of transitioning.

Sometimes I wonder,
"Why is that frisbee getting bigger?"

...and then it hits me!!

by cardzfanbub on Jan 22, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

infield defense

interesting older article from hardball times that provides some insight into how impactful (is that a word?) infielders can be defensively.

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Jan 22, 2009 3:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why?

I’ve read that Craig’s arm strength isn’t very good – which makes him a better candidate for 2B than 3B. That being said, I’ve heard his range is below average – for a 3B. Why do you think he’s the most likely to make the conversion?

by Toddius on Jan 22, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Franklin is your vet, just make sure he spends more time on the bench then the rest of the ’pen. Problem solved.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think the skill-sets are all that similar

A third baseman needs to be extremely quick with his hands and have good first-step range more than great speed. Also, he needs to be able to come in on the ball and field bunts on the run. Lastly, he needs a strong arm to get the ball across the diamond.

A second baseman obviously is better with quick hands and a good first step, but there’s increased importance on raw footspeed because, purely because of how the field is oriented, he more often has to sprint to get to a ball. Range is key at both positions, but it’s a different kind of range. Arm strength is less important. Ultimately, a great 2B does everything a great 3B does and then some.

This is all subjective, of course, but I’ve played all of the infield positions and OF in my esteemed baseball career, and I’ve found that they can be grouped — 3B is unique. 1B is unique (and easy, thanks to a bigger glove, much fewer ground balls than 3B, and not much throwing). 2B and SS are similar (SS is a little harder, for obvious reasons). LF and RF seemed exactly identical to me. CF is much harder.

Moving a 3B to 2B could work, assuming they could pick up the skill set. I just don’t think that the skill sets are similar.

by mojowo11 on Jan 22, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with most of

that but would add that there are more hard throws from RF than LF and thus you need a better arm to play there.

by Toddius on Jan 22, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My challenge again

Is there anyone who has had top of the line cheddar (ability to touch 98+……let alone 101), top of the line MiLB K-rates (10+….let alone 12), non-horrible BB-rates who didn’t become at least a good reliever?

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 22, 2009 9:11 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

This is the man you speak of...

Here

Here’s another example…and another, although he may have put it together last year.

All of those guys throw 97/98+ and have struggled at one time or another. Farnsworth seems to be the most apt comparison to Motte, and Turnbow the most appropriate for Perez considering his walk rates.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 9:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Umm

Frank Francisco isn’t a good reliever? Hell I’d call Farnsworth a good reliever for his career (and btw he doesn’t even fit the MiLB stat criteria), just because he didn’t live up to his potential doesn’t mean he isn’t worth having.

Turnbow is the only guy who fits it all, there we go…..and even he had one dominant season.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 22, 2009 9:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would agree on Fransisco

But if you look at his MLB FIP’s, he really only put things together last year because of injuries and being jerked around between AAA and the big leagues.

What I see out of all of those guys is that they are terribly inconsistent at the big league level. One year they can be nails and the next year they could be terrible. I’m not saying one way or the other that Motte or Perez are going to be great relievers or not. I would venture to say that they would be, but it is not unprecedented that guys who throw 98+ are simply going to be K machines in the big leagues.

Any guy like that is worth having on your roster, I agree. But if Motte or Perez has a 2009 that is similar in any way to Farnsworth’s 2002 or Turnbow’s 2006 season’s I think there are going to be a lot of us that will be disappointed.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously

I’m saying that the risk in these guys (at least Motte) is far less than it is seemingly made out to be. I just don’t see a 14.8 K/9 in AAA—-followed by even in 11 innings major league dominance—-not turning out to be someone good. Cut it in HALF(!) and he’s still worth having.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 22, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But wouldn't you be disappointed in a subpar season

of 10+ K/9 and an FIP near 5?

I’m not saying it’s going to happen, but it’s within the realm of possibility at least.

Would I trade him or release him after a season like that? No.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll bet a dollar

If he has a 10+ K/9 his FIP will not be anywhere near 5. He’d have to have say a 10 K/9, 3.5 BB/9 and a 2 HR/9 which is hard to do without an abnormally high HR/FB% ala Farnsworth, something I don’t find likely given Busch III With a Vengeance’s pitcherparkativity.

Explode his MLE homer rate to 1.5 and it’s still a 4.3 FIP with a 10/3.5 K/BB.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 22, 2009 10:27 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You get a rec

for “pitcherparkativity.”

by spants on Jan 23, 2009 2:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I may be wrong here...

not real great with stats (especially pitching). Don’t these guys have MUCH worse BB rates than Motte? Isn’t that the knock on both of them…control?

Sometimes I wonder,
"Why is that frisbee getting bigger?"

...and then it hits me!!

by cardzfanbub on Jan 22, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

true...but Perez has control issues

Motte hasn’t shown good control with any pitches other than his fastball.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Has he

thrown any other pitch?

by spants on Jan 23, 2009 2:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

He’s thrown a slider, but can’t locate it for strikes.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 23, 2009 9:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If I were deciding today

without ST to consider I would choose Kinney. I would have it as his job to lose.

For one, I would think it could be considered a compromise as I think Tony would be ok with Kinney. Secondly, I worry less about him getting overexposed than I do the other two. I also don’t see him giving up too many HR. An off day for a closer who doesn’t give up many homeruns can still save the game.

Motte closing two games in one series worries me.

I wouldn’t be upset if we matched up against the first batter in the 9th with the fireballers. But if we go in “bullpen by committee”, I have a feeling this season will suck.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 10:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

You're less worried about overexposing

a side arming right hander than two prospects that sit in the 96-98 range? Really?

by azruavatar on Jan 22, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In short

A straight FB IMO is going to be open to overexposure by design. I’d rather have him putting out fires in the 6th/7th.

If Perez comes to ST with his MLB version of his slider (no control, less bite) over what he showed in Memphis, I’d be worried about him as well.

Kinney to me represents a compromise to me control + arsenal.

Now if Motte threw away his attempt at a slider and went for a splitter/straight change as a second pitch I could get on board. Why he’s gearing up a slider I have no clue

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Now if Motte threw away his attempt at a slider and went for a splitter/straight change as a second pitch I could get on board. Why he’s gearing up a slider I have no clue

If he develops a change, Motte is Trevor Hoffman 2.0. Can’t someone show him the circle-change or even a palm ball?

Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:

by gocards62 on Jan 22, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How about a knuckleball

I love to see someone hit that heater after he floats one up there at 76mph.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Jan 22, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kinney has less ML innings in his career, playoffs included, than Perez

I like Kinney as much as the next guy, but honestly I think his status as “not a rookie like Motte and Perez” tends to make people think he’s somehow more proven. He’s not…and he doesn’t have the same stuff as Motte and Perez.

I just think it’s a bit strange to be willing to say “it’s Kinney’s job to lose” and not either of the other two.

by mojowo11 on Jan 22, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Plus

it’s been awhile since he pitched a meaningful amount.

by Toddius on Jan 22, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Will Ohman

Anyone heard what is up with him? This was my personal #1 target for the offseason. Not the sexiest pick-up, but a solid lefty reliever that I wouldn’t cringe leaving in for a righty or two…

by BigJawnMize on Jan 22, 2009 10:07 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Joe Biemel

Is just sitting out there also…

Does anyone know how much we have to pay Royce Ring is we cut him? What if we send him to Memphis?

The only reason I ask is mgmt might not want to waste the 600k they spend on him unless they can get out from under most of it.

www.salukihoops.com

by salukihoops on Jan 22, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One year deal...

…so they have to pay him for a year. I think he can go to the minors, all he has to do is clear waivers and at this point who is going to claim him.

by BigJawnMize on Jan 22, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don’t quote me because I’m not 100% on the CBA, but I believe that if he’s released in ST we only have to pay a prorated amount, not the full contract.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If I’m reading it right it’s one month’s salary if released by March 18th, 45 days salary if released by April 1st. It only applies to one year contracts.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i think you are right

my post below is wrong, based on reading the CBA. What I said is true if he is cut for injury reasons, but for “lack of skill”, your information would seem to be correct.

That’s an interesting feature.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 23, 2009 3:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if he signed a MLB contract

they have to pay him, unless someone else signs him, in which case we still pay the amount over the pro-rated minimum.

I can’t imagine the 600K is a factor in decision making, though.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 22, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One pitch relivers

Mariano Rivera pretty much throws the cut fastball exclusively. Bruce Sutter relied heavily on his splitter. Gossage, in his prime just threw gass. Yes, these are more deceptive pitches than the high velo fastball but changing location it becomes a different pitch (the high and tight FB v. down and away). Is Motte’s FB dominate enough and his control good enough that he can get by through changing location and just occasionally showing that curve / cutter he throws? I’d think “yes” but there is so little data on Motte, who can say?

by jjray on Jan 22, 2009 10:09 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

…I agree. Motte breaking ball isn’t the prettiest thing, but it is getting up there in the low 90’s with a little different movement than his fastball. I haven’t looked at his arm action to see if he could learn the splitfinger, but it seems like a potentialy good pitch for him to learn…

by BigJawnMize on Jan 22, 2009 10:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's say the 90ish curve / cutter is all Motte ever develops

Can he be a effective late innings reliever with just the high velo FB and cutter? He throws strikes and keeps the ball in the ballpark, so put me in the category of those who think he can be effective as is without trying to “change” him. That said, Motte has so little pitching experience I like to think he will develop a passable secondary pitch over time.

by jjray on Jan 22, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Location, yes

My impression is that some dominant starters sometimes don’t even throw their breaking or off speed stuff until after the 2nd or 3rd time through the lineup. So I agree with you. If Motte can locate well, then his one pitch will still be effective. Ideally, one would like to have movement, speed differential, or even different types of breaking stuff, but most pitchers can’t do everything well (unless they are juiced, e.g. Gagne’s streak).
BTW, I was hoping that Hoffman can come over and teach Motte his trademark changeup. Imagine Motte with a wicked changeup thrown for strikes?

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Jan 22, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nice thoughts totalloser

especially well taken point on movement. Motte doesn’t have much. Which makes me wonder why he is so effective … just the heater with little movement. My hunch is that the way he throws it like a catcher (cocked behind the head) makes it hard to pick up causing the ball to be on the hitters by the time they acquire it. A deceptive delivery plus 99 MPH makes for an effective backend reliever. I say backend because I think Motte is a guy who will be less effective if asked to go more than 1 inning. The more the hitters get a chance to study his mechanics, the less effective he will be.

by jjray on Jan 22, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure that's true of Rivera

Rivera throws a four-seamer and a cutter, both with impeccable control. The only way he can keep hitters honest on his cutter is if he also has a straight fastball. When it leaves his hand, it has to appear that it might also go straight, otherwise hitters would adjust for the break on the cutter. It helps that his cutter has such late movement, too.

Not that that necessarily invalidates your point. Just nitpicking.

by mojowo11 on Jan 22, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I read a quote that

sometimes Posada didn’t even put down a sign because Rivera throws the cutter nearly exclusively. Yes, Rivera “throws” other pitches but Motte also has another pitch. They both just show the other pitch for effect only. I don’t know where to find stats on Rivera’s frequency throwing the splitter so maybe you can prove this to be an urban legend.

by jjray on Jan 22, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it's available from fangraphs

link

He’s throwing the cutter a lot more now than he was 4 years ago; it’s an interesting progression.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 22, 2009 9:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe

that Motte and Perez both have the goods to fairly consistently make our games 7 inning games…my only concern is DUNCAN…he has a tendency to mess with young pitchers that don’t pitch his way(Reyes)…if he starts trying to get perez or motte to pitch to contact like the rumors say he was trying to do with perez last year, it can only be a bad thing

As long as Dave stays out of their way, they should be good enough to not lose us games..something that can’t be said of last years bull pen

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 22, 2009 10:33 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

agreed

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

pitching in the zone and pitching to contact

are not necessarily the same thing…papelbon pitches in the zone, you wouldn’t say he pitches to contact

i agree perez needs to better spot his fastball, but he does not need to pitch to contact at the expense of striking guys out

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 22, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The fallacy of “pitching to contact” is that it is at the expense of strikeouts. I tend to disagree, especially in Perez’s case.

If Perez “pitches to contact” he allows the natural attributes of his pitches to take over. Just because the ball is in the zone doesn’t mean the batter will hit it.

I’d argue that if Perez would pitch to contact more then his slider will become the feature pitch it should be, instead of “break in case of emergency” status it carries now. It should clean up his walk rate and wouldn’t make a significant impact on his K/9.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching to contact

as defined by Dunc is sinking pitches low in the zone. Perez’ and Motte both are most effective with cheese up in the zone. The difference is that Motte’s is usually when he is ahead in the count and Perez is more frequently behind in the count. Perez doesn’t need to throw low two-seamers, he just needs to throw “strike one”.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 22, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

that is what i am trying to say…to duncan, pitching to contact is throwing low sinkers…that is not what perez does nor should he do it

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 22, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One, Perez doesn’t throw a sinker, but if you’re saying throwing a fastball that sinks, then :

“that is not what perez does nor should he do it” is patently false.

Perez’s fastball carries a natural sink.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For one, you can’t put Motte’s and Perez’s fastball even close to the same category. They aren’t even close, at all.

Perez has a huge natural sink, Motte’s is straight as a clothesline. Motte does live well with “cheese up in the zone”, he’s also in no part anything to do with this discussion.

Can you point to any evidence that shows that Perez is effective when up in the zone at all? I’ve flipped through several games on gameday at random. One thing is clear, when it’s down he has a lot more success. Very few times (Longoria on May 16th, Fielder Aug 27th are examples) has the “high cheddar” been effective, and it’s usually after a slider

Promoting someone with that fast and having sink to pitch high is just asking for trouble.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you have any data

that shows Perez fastball has “huge natural sink”. I think the predominant movement is in on a RH batter with just a little sink.

I remember very well the sinker low and away that Mike Jacbs hit about 400 feet to LF. I don’t have time to look it up right now, but I would say Perez was effective up in the zone every time he was ahead in the count, especially to a RH batter. I am not a pitch f/x guru, so if someone has any real data please feel free to chime in.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 22, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

“huge” was probably an overstatement, but every scouting report I’ve read says that he has great natural sink for a guy who throws as hard as he does.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i argued the same point you are arguing

at some point during Perez’ early troubles last year, and someone presented pitch/fx data that showed I was wrong. Perez gets a ton of swinging K’s up in the zone, and gave up a lot of hits when down in the zone, at least early on.

This was before his return to the majors, IIRC. I can’t get to pitch/fx from work but maybe someone else can do the legwork and see if it was still true at the end of the year.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 22, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Check out Beyond the Boxscore from a couple of days ago

Pavlidis did a great write up on both Perez and Motte.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, that was a great article

but he doesn’t break down where in the zone the swinging strikes were at. There was an excellent graphic available at some time last year that had that information, which is more useful to this discussion; I think it was on josh kalk’s site.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 22, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I’ve looked at Kalk’s tool on Perez’s fastball and came to a few conclusions.

1.) He does get swings and misses up in the zone, which is normal for someone who pitches as fast as he does IMO. He still gets misses in general in the zone, which leads to pitching to contact not being detrimental.

2.) He pitches up in the zone when 1-2 in the count. But very little otherwise.

3.) He’s punished in the upper third just as much as the lower third when you’re accounting for fastballs only. (read: very little) My concern is when he “misses” while pitching up they’ll sit in the heart of the plate, vs being low in the zone/a ball.

I think most of it is moot as it is. I feel the reason why they’re encouraging a lower in the zone approach is because they’re trying to get his arm slot to be more mechanical to help his slider. It needs it. A few times watching him he looked surprised on where the slider ended up.

I don’t know if you’ve seen it in Memphis, but it’s nothing like what it was in St. Louis.

I wish his data could be split along dates so I could see him after he went back to Memphis which would be neat to see.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and as it was discussed quite a bit last year, fixing his arm slot and making it more mechanical is a good thing.

The kid is never going to get a solid hold on the slider and get a grip on its control if he doesn’t fix his arm slot and keep it in the same place.

sorry, but the Reyes reference doesn’t apply here and Duncan isn’t the devil.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the rumor last year

was that duncan was trying to get perez to pitch to contact….if thats true then the reyes reference definitely applies

I like duncan, i think he’s a great pitching coach…but if he was really trying to change everything about how perez goes about pitching, then it is a problem

i agree about the armslot…but that was not the only thing he was changing from what we heard

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 22, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It wasn’t a rumor, it was direct as can be. Here is the comment that stirred up everyone on the “Reyes II” bandwagon last year.

There’s nothing saying he’s wanting to change everything, it’s just the arm slot.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 10:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One last comment then I’ll leave this alone.

You are aware that Duncan has worked with Perez and changed a few things that have made a dramatic improvement already, right?

Duncan got a hold of him last year (in ST I believe) and put him pitching from the stretch, no more windup. They started the arm slot concept before last season as well.

Now compare his ‘07 numbers vs his ’08 numbers. I’d call that a dramatic improvement.

I can’t stand the Reyes situation just as much as anyone else, but this isn’t close.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I personally

think that a big part of what happened to Reyes was his stuff declined. For whatever reason, he was getting it up there around 89. Maybe Duncan had something to do with that, I don’t know. You can make more mistakes at 93-94 than you can at 89. You can sneak a ball by up in the zone at a higher speed, baseball comes down to split seconds. I can still make a pitching machine look silly at 75 – when you crank it up to 80, I’m just trying to make contact with a handsy swing, those few miles per hour matter.

by Toddius on Jan 22, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree that duncan is a good coach

but pitching to contact to him is low sinkers…and perez should not change everything to meet that criteria….that is what happened to reyes…i think we are thinking on two sides of the same coin here

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 22, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Perez putting his fastball low in the zone isn’t changing anything, that’s playing into the natural movement of his pitch. I encourage you to show me anything that says different.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Jan 22, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

balfour

would be my most comparable to motte. although motte doesn’t have the command issues balfour struggled through.

by ball in play on Jan 22, 2009 10:39 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

balfour threw his fastball 91.3% and motte 89.4%

by ball in play on Jan 22, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Interestingly

Balfour used his FB more as the season went along. Sept/August/Oct he was around 95%!

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 22, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Brad Zeigler

is the next closest. An ERA of 1.04, while throwing 87% fastballs at 85 mph is hilarious, sample size be damned.

by haltz on Jan 22, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i question

perez ability to be “closer like” vs lhb’s. in 08, 12 of his 22 bb were vs lhb’s in a smaller sample size than vs rhb’s. his career minors vs lhb’s bb/9 rate is 8.64, which appears to be the root of his command issues. the splits issue should be a factor in perez 09 usage.

by ball in play on Jan 22, 2009 11:12 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

screw a closer

having a closer to “just” pitch the 9th inning doesn’t make sense to start with. If I were Mo, I’d tell LaDunc to just pitch the best guys against the best hitters and be done with it. Use them in the high leverage situations, ie, when the games are close and we need a big out instead of saving them for what often turns out to be meaningless outs against crappy hitters in low leverage situations in the 9th. Oh well, I know that I’m prob preaching to the choir here….

by eglasier on Jan 22, 2009 12:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

We were blind-sided

Where did this come from? And why was it done now instead of end of the season? I hope this is a blessing in disguise in giving others a chance in the bigs.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Jan 22, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

that doesn’t make sense… but maybe Freese will go crazy

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I heard

Alex Cintron and Hee Sop Choi were hanging around at the Warmup.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 22, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thats a cruel joke.

i hope no gigantic korean first basemen ever come into contact with brett wallace, so help them.

by krippledmaster on Jan 22, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

EVERYTHING IS FINE

REMAIN CALM! WE WILL BE COMPETITIVE!!!
-John Mozeliak, esquire.

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 22, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i hate to say it, but once again the Cards medical staff needs to be called into question

why didnt they say do this when he had his season ending physical? why on God’s green earth would they wait till now to do this?

of course these are questions we may never get the answers to.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 22, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he had two ’zone shots in Sept and the MRI was clean, I do recall that.

I wouldn’t put this on the Cards med team just yet, He didn’t even use our team to get the surgery done, so he could have decided this on his own and only informed the team at winter warm-up.

It would have been more in Glaus’ interest to not do it so who knows how it played out.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 22, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jeez guys

I mean, I’m pessimistic about the Cards medical staff, too — but until we have a little more information, I think we should curtail the finger-pointing for now.

Why didn’t he do it after the season? Who knows. Maybe something’s changed. Maybe Glaus didn’t want to. Who knows.

I realize this is terrible news, but could we wait until we have more information before crucifying people?

by mojowo11 on Jan 22, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

yeah

for all we know, he slipped in the shower, or hurt it skiing, or playing basketball.

But it definitely isn’t a good omen.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 22, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ahhhh, but i like freaking out & pointing fingers!

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 22, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

rats

must put down the pitchfork & extinguish the torch.

hope is eternal each spring

by MOmojo on Jan 23, 2009 1:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ugh

i’m assuming he’ll do some kind of rehab stint somewhere, maybe extended spring training? so best case scenario is he’s back by the end of april?

i really hope freese is ready.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Jan 22, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

conspiracy theory

seems a little odd that yesterday stlcardinals.com put out a story about how deep third base was behind glaus and today they tell us that glaus had shoulder surgery yesterday.

"There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary. And there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I learned that, I gave Jesus a chance."

by Bahamaredbird on Jan 22, 2009 8:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

All the MLB team websites

had stories about third base yesterday. They’re going ’round the horn in the run-up to Spring Training.

by liam on Jan 22, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for the info

but upon further review I checked about ten sites and none of them had write ups on third base.

"There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary. And there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I learned that, I gave Jesus a chance."

by Bahamaredbird on Jan 23, 2009 8:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

which means he'll only miss two weeks of the regular season

unless i’m misunderstanding something, but that’s what it says right on the p-d story.

I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9

by erik on Jan 22, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's one thing to be frozen out of the HOF

But how bad must Big Mac feel with his own brother stabbing him in the back?

Deadspin.com reported Wednesday that Jay McGwire has been shopping a book proposal to major publishing houses that claims he introduced the scandal-stained slugger to steroids and that he also used human growth hormone

“My bringing the truth to the surface about Mark is out of love,” Jay McGwire wrote. “I want Mark to live in truth to see the light, to come to repentance so he can live in freedom – which is the only way to live.”

Yeah, doing it for love, I believe that would be the love of money.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Jan 22, 2009 2:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It's obvious that he doesn't know his brother at all

From the quotes in the article you linked to. There’s been a whole lot of stories bandied about alleging steroid use by McGwire and none of them has ever had any substance and they all seem to argue with each other about when and why Mac took them. The more people come out with different stories about it, the more I feel he’s being exploited.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What a shame

I went to high school with Mark’s brother Danny. I didn’t know Mark since he went to a private high school (Damian) vs. Danny (Claremont). I’ve always thought that they were a good solid family with lot’s of sports talent. Danny played in the NFL briefly as QB. It’s a shame to hear that about Jay. Maybe he was jealous of his sibling’s success? I thought Jay was also an athlete. Regardless, it’s a real shame.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Jan 22, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

at this very early point in time...

I’d rather see Motte as closer, since I hate it when the closer has control issues. nothing like walking in a run in the 9th. but ultimately, I think both will be used as closer over the course of the season.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 2:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Closer is generally the one place I am OK with control issues.

More often than not, your closer comes in with a clean slate on the basepaths. A walk is much less damaging there than in any other high-leverage situation.

That’s why I like Motte as more of a fireman than closer. He can throw strikes. Hard. Not only is Motte very likely to get a needed strikeout, he is less likely to give up a damaging walk.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jan 22, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Dear God,

Please no more Pepto bismol saves.

Sincerely,

Queasy Izzy.

But seriously, I would love it if Perez can get more consistent. Too much of a good thing would be great.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Jan 22, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he'll get more consistent as the season rolls along

but at first, throw motte in as closer, then when people start to catch up to him, do a switch up and put Perez in as closer.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I will not trust Perez as closer until

He lowers his walk rates under 4 BB/9 he should not be the closer. He had a very poor K/BB of 1.91 which puts him in the lower class of all relievers. That is not closer material what so ever. I think the minimum I could choke down would be a rate of 3.0 K/BB but that is pushing it as is.

Just look at Motte in his short time last year in the majors had a 5.33 K/BB rate and posted a 4.23 K/BB rate in Memphis. A Good reliever strikes out a lot of guys and walks little to no one. Motte might only have one pitch but that one pitched he has complete control over it.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 22, 2009 2:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I just want to say

I don’t actually want the best of these guys closing, whoever that is — I’d rather have the most reliable of the bunch (Motte, Perez, Kinney) as the fireman, coming in in high-leverage situations earlier than the 9th. I’d much rather have the second best of the bunch as the “closer,” if we HAVE to have someone in that role.

That is, of course, assuming that at least two of these guys become reliable relievers this year. Fingers crossed.

by mojowo11 on Jan 22, 2009 4:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

For me the question isn't "best versus second best"

It is a question of skillsets. Motte throws 1 pitch really well, and can throw it for more strikes. Shouldn’t that make him the ideal candidate for the fireman role? Perez has a more diverse offering, but has a bit more of a control issue. So shouldn’t he be more suited for the closer’s role?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jan 22, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Guess Cards are still trying to find a closer

Brandon Lyon is deciding between the Cards and Tigers…… Tigers of course will likely land him.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jan 22, 2009 4:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Let's hope

we shouldn’t waste money when we still need starting pitching.

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 22, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone give any creedence

to the argument that the "closer,: i.e; the best pitcher in the bullpen, shouldn’t exclusively pitch the 9th inning? For example, if you’re facing the the 3,4,and 5 hitters in the 7th/8th or over both, why wouldn’t you bring in your best then? And if he’s good the stamina to go further, ok – but you could always switch your setup guy to pitch the 9th?

Anybody have any idea on how many times, if any, Izzy did something like that?

I’m sure others have reasons as to why not, it’s something I’ve always sort of wondered.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jan 22, 2009 9:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The cool thing about the Cards

situation is that they have a whole flotilla of guys out there with strikeout stuff (Motte, Perez and McClellan, assuming Mac is not moved to the rotation). The Cards have rarely had that luxury. If we are in a jam in the 6th in a tight game, one of the guys who closes games can pitch that frame and we still have one of our alternate closers available for the 9th.

by jjray on Jan 22, 2009 9:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I really enjoy

the word flotilla and think it needs to be used much more often.

mel

by mel1975 on Jan 22, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

was listening to 590 AM earlier

they played audio of mozeliak talking to the press about the glaus surgery. some notes:

-he says there is a possibility glaus could be ready by opening day. (i think he should go on a rehab assignment, however, since he’s missing most or all of spring training)

-when asked whether the vacancy would be filled from within the organization, he said, as of now, yes. players in the mix are freese, wallace, craig, mather and thurston.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Jan 22, 2009 9:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i for one say, "mo, you've gotten in enough trouble about overpromising. tell the nice people in

AMradioland that troy will be back when he can play baseball safely and effectively. then, gosh, maybe you could schedule a press conference with Mr. Glaus and Doc Paletta or whoever. if you say maybe opening day, the knuckleheads on cards talk are going to have yet another axe to endlessly grind on the board. and bernie will come up with some obnoxious catchphrase to describe these hopeful estimates which usually end up wrong. Unless we’re talking about albert, and then he comes back a week early and bends a 2 inch steel I-beam into a bow because albert is not a 29-year-old from the DR, but from some far off planet where everyone is preposterously strong and coordinated."

by tom s. on Jan 23, 2009 3:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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