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In Search of the Elusive Upside

Good morning, friends. And how is everyone today? Do you feel warmer? Well, I certainly do, because I went to the Winter Warm Up over the weekend, and it lived up to its name. The atmosphere in the city of St. Louis is now palpably more appealing, with the chill of winter having been dismissed to the outlands.

Okay, so that may be a bit of an exaggeration, but the Winter Warm Up was this past weekend, I did attend, and it was pretty great. First time I had ever been, and I made the most of it. Went to a couple of seminars, walked around gawking at all the players you normally only see on television, and then stood in line to meet the Walrus. And let me tell you something: It. Was. Awesome.

First off, Brett Wallace is really, really cool. Super nice guy, seemed genuinely glad to be in professional ball, and didn't mind chatting at all. The players were clearly under instructions to keep the line moving, so you didn't have a real long time to talk, but still. Second, Brett Wallace is a big boy. I know that isn't news to anyone here, but none the less, I feel the need to emphasize it. Not overweight, mind you; the guy certainly doesn't look anything like a John Kruk, or even a Prince Fielder, type. But Wallace is just huge. It's always tough to look at a photo and then translate it into real life, but he looked to be in much better shape than most of the college photos I had seen. Still, better shape or not, the first thing you think  when you see the guy is just how big he really is.

You know, we've done a lot of discussing around here about the Cardinals' farm system, and the consensus is largely that, while Jeff Luhnow and crew have done an excellent job of building solid depth, there is still a notable lack of top-end talent, particularly in the starting pitching ranks. Plenty of guys who project as mid- to back-end starters, but very few players with the big time stuff that you see shutting opposing lineups down. Personally, I happen to pretty much agree with with that assessment, and that is a definite problem. If you can't develop the talent, you have to pay for it, and front end starter talent is as close to a gold standard as you can get in baseball.

With all of that in mind, I thought it might be useful to take a look around at the Cards' minor leagues and try to determine who might have the kind of top end talent we're talking about. There are a few, you know; you just have to look for them. And so we will. Let's make it five, shall we? Nice round number and all that.

Star-divide

1. Clayton Mortensen- Ah, right off the bat, we're going to have some controversy. Mortensen is a very, very tough prospect to get an exact handle on, largely due to the fact that any and all numbers have to be taken with a pretty big grain of salt. It's been widely discussed that the Cardinals rushed Mort up to Triple A this year, his first full season as a professional, and he struggled, pretty seriously. What happened with Mortensen is pretty simple. He started getting knocked around by hitters at a higher level than what he was ready for, and he got tentative. He stopped attacking the strike zone, preferring instead to nibble. His groundball rate plummeted, indicative of a pitcher trying to guide the ball, rather than finishing his pitches properly. Even more damaging, his walk rate spiked sharply, a certain recipe for disaster.

What Mortensen does still have, though, is a repertoire that is much better than most people realise. He begins with a power sinker that sits comfortably in the 90-92 mph range by most reports, a solid average slider that generates more weak contact than empty swings, and at least one good changeup. I say at least one because when he was drafted, Mortensen threw two versions of his changeup, a standard straight change and a palmball, which I literally don't think anyone has thrown since sometime in the mid-50s. I'm not sure if he still throws both, but the two times I've seen him pitch, once at Springfield and once at Memphis, I was impressed both times by the movement on some sort of changeup-like pitch. Take that for whatever it may be worth, and that probably isn't much, but hey, I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Mortensen is very much a late bloomer, as his body is just now filling in at the age of 23. He took a big step forward his last year of college, and the Cardinals demonstrated their faith in his sinkerballing ways by popping him well ahead of where most pundits had him projected. The thing about Mortensen is he has truly remarkable movement on his fastball, with a hard downward tilt that recalls a little bit of the Red Sox' Justin Masterson. Mort also has a big, lanky frame that even now has plenty of room for growth and, hopefully, strength.

Personally, I believe in this kid. (Obviously, since I'm going out on a limb here and projecting something that very few others see in him.) The Brandon Webb lite tag may have been thrown around a little hastily this past offseason and spring training, but I think that Mort has the stuff to pitch toward the front of a major league rotation. Whether he can develop that repertoire suitably remains to be seen, but to my eye, he has much, much more upside than he almost ever gets credit for.

2. David Kopp- When the Cardinals picked the righthander out of Clemson University in the third round of the 2007 draft, it looked like they might very well be getting a bargain. They took him at #71 overall; he had been projected before the draft to go quite a bit higher than that.

The story on Kopp, for me at least, begins with his delivery. He may have some of the best mechanics I have personally ever seen, and every one of the mechanic analysts I've come across agree with me. His delivery is remarkably similar to that of Mariano Rivera, with a higher glove position the only major difference. He repeats his delivery well also, which bodes well for future control.

Kopp's repertoire is very good, with a sinking fastball that he pumps consistently in the low 90s and occasionally a bit higher than that. His slider is described as at least average and probably a future plus pitch, with excellent depth. His changeup is very much still a work in progress, though it has shown considerable potential at times.

There are two main concerns with Kopp. The big one is his health. He went down with shoulder issues this past season, and was diagnosed with minor fraying of his labrum. However, it was also described as being comparable to what nearly any pitcher probably has, and Kopp's long term prognosis is good. Of course, shoulder issues and the Cardinals make me awfully skittish, but most reports that I've read have him on track to be ready for a full season's workload in '09. Until he stays on the field, though, the health concerns will certainly continue to be there.

The other issue with Kopp is his strikeout rate. With his power repertoire, Kopp simply shouldn't allow as much contact as he does. Even in college, he never posted the kind of K rates that one associates with true dominance. At Palm Beach last year, he did strike out almost 20% of the batters he faced, a pretty good number, but still not what you see from the top prospects in the game. The question of why Kopp doesn't strike out more hitters is a difficult one for me. His repertoire is certainly good enough to generate the K, but somehow he just doesn't. It is somewhat mitigated by the fact that he's a groundball machine, but one still has to wonder what the deal is.

The bottom line with Kopp is this: he has an ideal pitcher's body, an outstanding delivery, and an above average assortment of pitches. As it stands now, even without the injury concerns, one has to question his ultimate upside. If you're looking for a guy who certainly has all the components in place to dominate, though, Kopp certainly fits the bill.

3. Brett Zawacki- Ah, one of my very favourite draft picks. The Cardinals popped Zawacki in the 12th round of the 2007 draft and signed him away from a commitment to Arizona State. This is just the sort of high upside, prep school pitcher I love to see the team get into their system.

Zawacki pitched only 34 innings in his debut in 2008, and his line was less than impressive. He ended up with an ERA of 7.86, but the underlying story isn't nearly so bad. His BABIP was a truly ghastly .400, and while BABIP in the low minors isn't nearly so predictable as in the big leagues, that number simply has to come down. Still, though, it was a less than auspicious debut, no matter how one wishes to slice it.

What is good about Zawacki, though, is the stuff contained in his right arm. His fastball sits in the low 90s with hard sink, he has a power curveball that is still erratic but very impressive at times, and a changeup that has unusually good movement, finishing hard down and away from left-handed hitters. The comparison that I always come back to with Zawacki is Yovani Gallardo of the Brewers. The two are similar size, have similar repertoires, were both highly regarded high school picks in the draft, and both feature deliveries that are typically described as "drop and drive" and lead to concerns about their ability to keep the ball down consistently.

That's a pretty lofty comparison, I know, but I think it's also an apt one. There has been a little bit of dismissal of Zawacki here and there, due to his ugly numbers this season and the notion that he was supposed to be a quick riser. I think that's a bit premature, as Zawacki is very, very young, and still quite raw. The stuff is absolutely there, and the maturity and makeup are supposedy top notch. He's a long way off, but Zawacki represents one of the highest upside arms the Cardinals have taken in recent years.

4. Deryk Hooker- I freely admit that I'm a sucker for strikeouts. Of all the starters in the Cards' minor league system, Hooker may be the top guy when it comes to empty swings. He pitched in short season leagues each of his first two years, and struck out over 30% of the hitters he faced at each level. He was promoted to Quad Cities in the latter part of the season this past year, and saw his K rates drop off significantly, but he managed to still hold his own.

At only 19 years old, Hooker is also extremely young, a fact which, of course, bodes very well for his future success. He throws hard, in the low-90s and occasionally a bit higher, and has unusually good movement on the ball. He features a big, nasty curveball that is already being talked about as being an out pitch in the future, and a changeup that shows significant promise. He's also an absolute beanpole at 6'4", 185, so there's plenty of room for growth and with it possibe added velocity.

The biggest concerns that I've heard with Hooker mostly surround his mechanics, which are usually described as being mechanical and stiff. I honestly haven't seen but a very brief video clip of his delivery, and while it did look a little awkward, his arm action didn't scream out "injury risk", so I'm hoping that maybe those concerns are a bit overstated. Part of the issue, I think, is that he is so gangly, making his delivery look even a bit more unusual than it really is.

Deryk will not turn 20 years old until the end of June this year, and has already proven himself capable of handling full season ball. He'll most likely return to Quad Cities to begin the year, but there is some talk of him getting a chance to earn a spot in the Palm Beach rotation. That seems awfully ambitious to me, but with the results that he's had so far, I certainly wouldn't put it past Hooker. To me, he probably represents the Cardinals' best bet at a top of the line starter. He doesn't have the question marks that surround Mortensen's repertoire and performance or David Kopp's health. Hooker has also proven himself already at a higher level than Zawacki, and is much more polished. He's probably still several years away, but if there's one guy you should watch if you're looking for ace potential, I would say Hooker has to be the guy.

5. Anthony Ferrara- The only lefty on the list, Ferrera is also the only 2008 draftee I'm including here. The Cardinals selected him in the seventh round of this most recent draft out of a Florida high school and moved quickly to get him into the fold. As a result, he managed to pitch 30 innings in the Gulf Coast League, and showed pretty well for a player straight out of high school. He struck out better than a batter per inning, and overall posted a 3.99 FIP.

Ferrara's stock in the 2008 draft dropped significantly due to a biceps injury in the summer of 2007, an injury that at first was diagnosed as shoulder tendinitis. James Andrews, however, diagnosed it as a muscle imbalance, which I honestly know nothing about, though I assume it's essentially just what it sounds like. If not for the injury concerns, Ferrara might very well have been a first round draft pick; as it is, the Cards may have gotten one of the steals of the draft.

Ferrara's repertoire is outstanding. He throws both a two-seam and four-seam fastball, with his four-seamer getting up as high as 95 in his high school career. He also features an excellent changeup that was rated as one of the better off speed pitches in the entire draft. Ferrara has both a curve and a slider, though you don't hear a whole lot about either one, leading me to conclude neither is particularly notable at this time. With such a wide variety of pitches, one would think Ferrara will probably be asked to drop at least one of his offerings in order to better focus on improving the quality of his repertoire.

Ferrara is a big kid, with a 6'3" inch frame that features broad shoulders and long legs. He has room to fill out still, but not quite to the extent that a guy like Deryk Hooker does. He already has plenty of strength and velocity, and any extra would just be a bonus.

I have not yet been able to come across any video of Ferrara, so I can't speak to what sort of mechanics he has or anything of that sort. If anybody knows where I could locate such a thing, I would pay handsomely in internet dollars for a heads up.

To me, Ferrara is going to quckly become a monster prospect. Left-handed, with the kind of stuff he already has, is just begging to be noticed. He endured a weird situation, being in injury limbo, and it may very well have allowed him to slip down to true bargain status. Unless he has more physical issues (knock on wood), I don't see any reason for Ferrara not to tear it up in 2009. As to where he will start the year, I wouldn't even begin to hazard a guess, though I would think he'll be in extended spring training before departing for a short season club.

There are some others in the Cardinal system that probably have the potential to be upper rotation type guys, but these are the ones that I like. Even so, all of these guys have questions surrounding them, whether due to injury, extreme youth, or ceiling questions. There are no true slam dunks here.

What I do like, though, is that the Cardinals have seemed to be much more open to taking the high upside, high risk sort of pitchers in the last couple of drafts, at least in the middle or latter rounds. Guys like Hooker, Zawacki, and Ferrara were all drafted in the seventh round or later, and all have stuff that could make them future stars. Early in the rebuilding of the farm system, I could understand at times the Cardinals' reluctance to select these sorts of players, as building some sort of depth to work with was absolutely paramount. The system, though, is very healthy now. I hope that we see a whole lot more arms like the three I mentioned taken in the future. We've seen Luhnow be able to take the safe picks, and the guys who aren't real likely to completely flame out. Now let's see how he does as a gambler.

Oh, and one last thing: you really need to see this, because it's awesome. Tony La Russa in his Johnny Cash jacket and rock star boots. As much as I get on Tony for being too set in his ways and maybe not a great fit, I have to admit that I'm really going to miss the guy when he's gone. I think.

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the futureredbirds.net, those are all prospects I’m familiar with. I like the upside in the last 3 prospects on that list, but those 3 seem very far away from the majors. A lot can happen to a pitcher that young between now and then. Hopefully these guys will stay healthy and we’ll see them in spring training in the next 2-4 years.

by Toddius on Jan 21, 2009 12:56 PM EST reply actions  

Anybody have thoughts about drafting strategies re: pitchers v. position players?

RB, you touch on this at the end. I think it’s far better to try to grab a big name position player in the first/supplemental rounds, but to go for pitching depth in the later rounds.

basically, i think pitching prospects tools are much harder to analyze at a young age, combined with a high incidence of injury demolishing the value of a high-end pitching prospect. Position players are less likely to lose their value — at the same time, the later round position players seem less likely to provide value.

Obviously, all this is a generalization. There are great first round pitchers and terrible first round position players, dreadful later round pitchers, and great later-round position players (Albert). I wouldn’t say never take pitchers in the first round and never take position players in later rounds, but I think it’s a good general rule.

by tom s. on Jan 21, 2009 12:56 PM EST reply actions  

You know,

I used to fight this notion tooth and nail, as I think there are plenty of arms at the top of the draft that are just too special to pass on, but as time goes on, I’ve come more around to that way of thinking. Fewgoodcards over at FR once said to me, when we were debating the value of Brett Wallace vs. Jake Odorizzi (I still think Odorizzi will be a beast, and he would still have been my personal choice in the first round this past year), that he was only concerned with getting a major leaguer in the first round. I was arguing that you should draft for the biggest possible upside, while he wanted the more likely to succeed guy.

I can see both arguments, but I think that pitching may, in fact, be better served to the latter rounds, with a strategy just like the one that netted the Cards Zawacki and Hooker and the like. As you say, the quality of position players is fairly linear; guys like Pujols certainly happen, but for the most part, you know much more clearly what you’re getting out of a positional player in the draft. On the other hand, it always seems like there are a bunch of super projectable, raw high school arms just hanging around on day two of the draft, waiting to be picked and bought out of their college commitment. Maybe that’s just the way to go.

Jillsinmo is fond of saying that you usually get what you pay for with position players in free agency; maybe that should be the way you should look at it in the draft as well. Get what you pay for with the players that you’re paying big bonuses to, then take your shots with the hard throwing, Rick Vaughn types later on for pitching.

It’s an interesting concept, and one that I’ll certainly end up revisiting as we move closer in toward draft season, I’m sure.

It was half my fault, and half the atmosphere.

by the red baron on Jan 21, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with that to a point

I think it breaks when you get to a guy like David Price at the first pick. Given the Cards haven’t gotten to pick in the top 10 for a while, where you have the no brainers, I say go for the position players early. Even a guy like Porcello and his huge signing bonus make it a risk.

by birdo rojo on Jan 21, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Also when you think

That at least 80% of the 1st round college pitchers were no better than 5th rounders coming out, there’s plenty of talent out there.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 21, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Love these posts

I have to say that RB’s posts about prospects and upcoming drafts are my favorite. Thanks for taking the time.

I would be curious to hear what you think about some of the guys we didn’t sign last year. A couple pitchers that we drafted with some upside but failed to sign include Brett Bruening, Justin Leith, and Danny Jimenez. I am sad we didn’t sign them, but if you look at the amount of players we did sign vs. the amount that other teams signed, we definitely got a check mark next to the quantity category.

by t7rick on Jan 21, 2009 1:02 PM EST reply actions  

The unsigned

I think it was Bruening that I really liked before the draft that they just couldn’t get a deal done with. Maybe it was Jimenez. I honestly don’t recall. To be frank, those guys were far enough off the radar that I was only peripherally aware of them, and the fact that the Cards didn’t get them signed doesn’t seem to be a huge problem to me. While ideally you would sign every single player you draft, the reality is that sometimes, the two sides just can’t match up. It happens.

Like you said, I think the Cardinals signed a high enough percentage of their draftees that I feel at least somewhat comfortable just ignoring the ones that got away. (Now, I do reserve the right to bitch and moan when Jimenez comes back as a first round draft pick in three years, a la the 2003 draft class of the Cards.)

Overall, I’m just glad to see them taking the higher upside arms at all. Those late round picks give you such a unique opportunity to spend a little extra and possibly add something much more valuable. If the Cardinals were drafting org. filler in the late rounds, I would be much more upset than seeing them go for the downs, so to speak, and maybe just fail to get a contract done. I like the strategy a lot, and I try not to get frustrated when the details don’t always work out.

Just the way I try to look at it.

Oh, and thank you so much for the compliment.

It was half my fault, and half the atmosphere.

by the red baron on Jan 21, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

wow 2003

I just looked at that draft and…..wow, what would the system look like today if we had singed just two of Kennedy, Mulvey, Sinkbeil, Sherzer, or even Micholio? I don’t know the whole story as to why some of those guys didn’t sign, but from the looks of it, everyone excluding Kennedy (not late round) were HS guys drafted in the late rounds that didn’t sign. Unfortunately that sounds a lot like the guys I asked you about. I did like the comment by Tom. S and maybe we should be spending a little more on getting all of the pitchers we can sign from the lower rounds and just not signing some of the position players from later rounds to recoup the money. However, you never know, and that was just one draft so it may be the outlier.

Very interesting though. I would definitely love to see Sherzer in a Cards uni.

by t7rick on Jan 21, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup.

That could have been a monster draft. The Cards got Reyes in something like the 12th round, I believe, Kennedy in about the 14th, Sinkbeil and Scherzer both in the 40s… Unreal.

It was half my fault, and half the atmosphere.

by the red baron on Jan 21, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

That would have

been awesome. Good strategy, poor execution.

by Toddius on Jan 21, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

On Scherzer

Scherzer really blossomed when he hit college. I remember seeing him live once in HS when he played against my nephew’s team, and then once in college when I went out to see Mizzou play.

The first time, I thought, “Hmm…he’s got good velo. (I had no gun or anything but I’m guessing 85-6ish) and locates well for a H.S.er. He may be pretty good for Mizzou one day.”

The second time I couldn’t believe it was the same guy. He was simply pumping. The mitt literally exploded every time he threw a FB. I could see why he was a candidate to go number one overall before he got hurt his last year there.

Now, clearly he could have gone to the Cards and signed and just exploded the same way…but then again maybe not. Context is so important with prospects.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 21, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Tommy Pham

Seems like he has good upside. He is fast as the wind and plays SS

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 21, 2009 1:32 PM EST reply actions  

Sweet!

Thanks a ton. Your virtual check is in the real mail. (Digest that one. Real toad, imaginary garden and all that.)

It was half my fault, and half the atmosphere.

by the red baron on Jan 21, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Gotta say

I’m really pleased with the kid’s mechanics. Without slow mo, of course, one can’t be entirely sure, but I like what I can see of his arm action at full speed. Reminds me of someone, but I can’t quite place who. It’ll come to me eventually.

I would like to see him follow through a bit more, though. Seems like he cuts his arm action off a little at the end. Pretty minor quibble, though, and definitely correctable if worth correcting.

It was half my fault, and half the atmosphere.

by the red baron on Jan 21, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

agree

Everything looks pretty solid. He’s got a little hitch in his arm swing which might result in his arm being a touch late getting to perpendicular, but like you said, without slo-mo it’s impossible to tell.

However, I am pretty concerned with his follow through, or rather, his lack of follow through. As hard as he’s throwing, that’s putting a ton of stress on his shoulder. The writer at Driveline Mechanics (highly recommended) likes to talk about sticking the pitching shoulder into the catcher’s mitt. I like that, it forces a full arm circle deceleration and a flat back follow through.

Overall, his motion looks like it has a touch of Johan Santana in it.

by Jhusk on Jan 21, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Ouch, hate his followthrough bad.

Very stiff, looks like he’s trying to stop his arm from coming around his body. Man that sucks.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Jan 22, 2009 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Michael J Fox R/R 6'1" 195 8/13/1979 50 SS

Nice pick in the 50th round of the 2001 Cardinals draft.

by t7rick on Jan 21, 2009 1:33 PM EST reply actions  

no way michael j fox is 6'1"

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Jan 21, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

So Baron,

you like Kopp’s mechanics yet you’re concerned about injury? Do you have a link to video of him pitching so I can take a look?

by silent_bob on Jan 21, 2009 2:00 PM EST reply actions  

Mechanics

There used to be video of him floating around on pitchingclips, but that site seems to have self destructed. Give me a bit to see if I can find any.

It was half my fault, and half the atmosphere.

by the red baron on Jan 21, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Kopp

I still love Kopp’s mechanics and his stuff but I am beginning to wonder if he has what it takes.

by thepainguy on Jan 21, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

why?

it is not like he’s sitting on the DL on purpose. what has he shown you to question that?

I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9

by erik on Jan 21, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Kopp's Toughness

I’ve gotten to know Greg Mathews (Cards 86-90) and one thing he has impressed on me is that successful major leaguers have to have a certain toughness that enables them to push through the soreness, and sometimes pain, that comes with pitching at a high level. That doesn’t mean you do something stupid when things are obviously bad, but sometimes you just have to deal with things and push through it. Given how Kopp seems to have a tendency for problems to knock him out for a whole season, I’ve begun to wonder about him in that respect.

by thepainguy on Jan 22, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice

Kid has a fraying labrum (despite you touting his mechanics) so you question is mental veracity. And that stems from a guy who lasted 514 big league innings? So we should be expecting Grienke to fall apart again right? How do we know when guys aren’t mentally tough enough? When did Kopp acquire this fragile state of being? In college?

There are so many speculative opinions in your comments that I don’t even know what to make of them.

by azruavatar on Jan 22, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Labrum

I don’t recall seeing this confirmed.

by thepainguy on Jan 22, 2009 10:00 PM EST up reply actions  

i went through the laborious process of putting "kopp" and "labrum" into google.

first hit.

“Maybe I put to much stock in this injury, a frayed labrum, but history has shown us that young pitchers and shoulder injuries can be very unpredictable. Kopp has a smooth, repeatable delivery that he uses to deliver three average or better pitches. I am sold that if he is healthy that he could be very productive. Unfortunately, since joining the Cardinals he has not been able to stay on the field.”

by tom s. on Jan 23, 2009 3:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Fraying labrum

essentially means he’s a pitcher. Nothing more, nothing less.

by silent_bob on Jan 23, 2009 9:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Also

I don’t even see a good source for this diagnosis.

by thepainguy on Jan 23, 2009 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

also

Here. There are maybe another dozen sites matching Kopp with labrum.

“An MRI of the region revealed a bit of fraying in the labrum, but nothing really out of the ordinary for a power pitcher. It isn’t ideal, of course, but hell, the simple action of throwing overhand is an extremely unnatural one for a human being, and if you were to look at the shoulders and elbows of every pitcher in baseball, you would probably find some degree of damage in 99 percent of them. Point being, what David was having was certainly concerning, but the amount of damage found to be present was nothing that anyone would be devastated to see in a pitcher’s arm.”

Not sure what you want as a “good source” — are you familiar with minor league players who regularly post their MRI’s on-line for public inspection so that their diagnoses can be verified?

Or you could just keep telling everybody that some kid you’ve never looked at “lacks mental toughness” because you either can’t use google or don’t trust what’s out there.

by tom s. on Jan 23, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

point is moot

Point 1: Chris, The only reason you would doubt the source of a documented injury is to give more clout your statement that he lacks toughness. The problem with your statement is that it is rooted in ass-backward logic and it is based on no specific facts about Kopp himself.

Point 2: a frayed labrum on an MRI means nothing unless somehow it can be positively correlated with a functional limitation.

b)

by silent_bob on Jan 23, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Attribution

“Chris, The only reason you would doubt the source of a documented injury is to give more clout your statement that he lacks toughness. The problem with your statement is that it is rooted in ass-backward logic and it is based on no specific facts about Kopp himself.”

No, I just haven’t seen any attribution of the quote.

Who made it originally? An MD?

by thepainguy on Jan 23, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

no, on further reflection, it was probably a lay person's

magnetic resonance imager that they had laying around the house. Kopp’s brother-in-law probably ran the scan and analyzed it.

look, i’m not saying every single bit of information on the internet is right, but, come on, this is a minor leaguer’s injury. they don’t make formal press releases every time this happens.

the problem is that you’re tearing this guy down in the absence of contradiction, not that you’re withholding judgment until you see corroboration.

by tom s. on Jan 23, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

We keep an MRI

in the garage. You know, for kicks.

by spants on Jan 23, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Don't call it a frayed labrum then.

Call it a shoulder boo-boo. I don’t care. Doesn’t change the fact that the essence of what you say is to question his mental toughness based on one injury and some random pitcher who threw 500 major league innings.

by azruavatar on Jan 23, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Hang on a tick.

Seems like they’ve fixed it. Hallelujah!

Here you go

It’s even the side by side with Rivera I was referencing. Good stuff.

It was half my fault, and half the atmosphere.

by the red baron on Jan 21, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Mechanics are pretty solid

I like to see more lead leg hip rotation at foot plant and follow-through. If you look, Mariano rotates his right ass cheek around toward his left more than Kopp does.

by silent_bob on Jan 22, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Well yeah

That’s why he’s Mariano Rivera and can throw 96 mph sliders in his late 30s.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 23, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Sliders?

Does he throw a slider? I believe it’s a cutter…

Your point is well-taken, however…

by silent_bob on Jan 23, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

isn't a cutter

just a (for lack of a better term) lazy slider?

Maybe not a lazy slider, but a slider wannabe?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 23, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, and by the way, Bob

good to see you around here again. Haven’t seen too much of you for awhile.

It was half my fault, and half the atmosphere.

by the red baron on Jan 21, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

tis been crazy times for the Bob

Looks like I’m living up to my nickname lately.

Meanwhile, a baby boy on the way and a new job with more responsibility = less blog time unfortunately.

by silent_bob on Jan 22, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Great post I enjoyed it

I can’t wait to see some of these guys in Springfield, fingers crossed they all get here soon enough.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 21, 2009 2:22 PM EST reply actions  

Mac is the 5th Starter?

Per the St. Louis PD

Now, with ace Chris Carpenter recovering from a season-ending nerve condition and an unrelated offseason nerve relocation, McClellan has been told to prepare himself as a starting pitcher. More distance running and refining a change-up are two byproducts. A starter for five minor-league seasons before elbow-ligament replacement caused his detour to the bullpen, McClellan plans to embrace the opportunity for a new role.

“I’ve prepared before as a starter in the minor leagues. Having done both makes it easier on me,” he says. “But I’m going into spring training as a starter. I’m 100 percent moving toward that. Until someone tells me otherwise, that’s my goal. The best thing for me is to go in thinking, ’I’m a starter.’”

Cardinals pitching coach Dave Duncan told McClellan last October to prepare himself as a starter this winter. Manager Tony La Russa underscored the message during last weekend’s Winter Warm-Up, which included McClellan being honored as the team’s 2008 rookie of the year.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jan 21, 2009 2:27 PM EST reply actions  

That makes sense.....

Guess he (and Thompson) would be disappointed if Sheets was signed……. Pineiro makes too much money to move out of the rotation…. but what do I know….. whatever makes the team better, right?

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jan 21, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

this makes no sense

why does it matter how much money pineiro makes? does he make any less if he pitches as a reliever?

How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor

by themanthemyth on Jan 21, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think he was suggesting putting Pinata in the rotation

More like what the organization will do

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Jan 21, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

More options the better

Someone has to turn out to be workable out of Carpenter/Boggs/McClellan right?

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 21, 2009 7:07 PM EST up reply actions  

No love for Castillo?

I am interested to here people’s predictions on his upside. His numbers as an 18 year old in High A are pretty impressive to me. He is on the smaller side but so is Oswalt and Lincecum. Does anybody have a scouting report on him?

by MattK on Jan 21, 2009 2:59 PM EST reply actions  

try this

link

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 21, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks!

It appears it’s the velocity on his fastball that is holding him back from being considered an elite prospect.

by MattK on Jan 21, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Skip Schumaker, you owe me a damn apology.

After it was rumored over the weekend that he would play some 2B this year for the Cardinals, he went into a big schpeil on MLB.com about how none of those rumors were true and he hadn’t even taken groundballs in years. That was false because I personally saw him do it last season before a game for about 45 minutes.

Schumaker was drafted as an infielder but has not played there since making the move to the OF. I have spoken with Tony on this and we have included Oquendo in these talks as well. Skip may get a look there this spring to gauge how comfortable he would be with trying to move back to the infield. He had a good offensively and we always look for creative ways to get players more playing time.

So, I think Tony and Jose need to include Skip in these meetings in the future.

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 21, 2009 3:26 PM EST reply actions  

OT: interview with Mo up at the PD

of note:
John Mozeliak: Schumaker was drafted as an infielder but has not played there since making the move to the OF. I have spoken with Tony on this and we have included Oquendo in these talks as well. Skip may get a look there this spring to gauge how comfortable he would be with trying to move back to the infield.

Sadly, Mo gets a bit unprofessional with the negative questions towards the end… very disappointing. The GM of a pro baseball team shouldn’t be insulting internet dweebs, regardless of how impolite they are.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 21, 2009 3:31 PM EST reply actions  

link

link

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 21, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

wonder why i didn't see your post go up

it was over 5 minutes earlier, should have seen it. but there were no new posts…

oh well.

FWIW, Chris Perez got time at first base in pre-game warmups last year, too ;)

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 21, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

oh

i had the thread open in a window, and i guess the new posts only show up in one or the other, not both. Interesting SB bug.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 21, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't believe they posted some of those "internet dweeb" questions

I, for one, asked a very simple question regarding Mr. Sheets and whether or not health concerns were scaring them away – or if he ever had even been on the radar. I guess it is easier to answer the guy with the moniker “I HATE BILL DEWITT!!!” calling you a “total loser” than to comment on the biggest free agent starting pitcher still on the market.

oh well.

by ribbij on Jan 21, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I know

I asked about 8 very specific, polite, baseball questions and they chose that crap. Not once but twice

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

NO Garland, NO Wolf, NO Looper!

by jealousblues on Jan 21, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

If I were conspiracy minded...

I would think they chose the inflammatory stuff deliberately (the Cardinals are cheap), over the reasonable questions (Sheets), so they don’t have to explain why they aren’t going to sign Sheets.

Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)

by DiscoJer on Jan 21, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, we should know

enough about journalists by now to think it was the PD that was picking the questions, and they naturally go for the inflammatory ones.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 21, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

similar deal with me

I asked about Ben Sheets also. I was hoping to see my question, or one similar to it addressed. Sadly it did not appear. Perhaps this suggests that they are considering signing him and that is why he avoided the question, as he doesn’t want to face criticism if the Mets or someone else outbids us… or perhaps I am overthinking this.

Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote.

by Gregatron on Jan 21, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I absolutely love this answer

blunt and to the point.

DonovanOsborne: I hear that we didn’t add to the team at last year’s trade deadline because the Brewers were so strong and it would be easier to try to win this year because Sheets and Sabathia will be gone. Any truth?
John Mozeliak: Zero, I just didn’t want to move Motte for a rental.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 21, 2009 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

i was fine with his reply to the negative comments

then again i’m not sure if he is picking which questions to respond or if they are chosen for him. if he is picking them then yeah he should have just avoided them. if he isn’t picking them then i am fine with him being curt and smart ass to them because they were a waste of his time.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Jan 21, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

His reply

was a bit unprofessional, but it showed a side to Mo that we sometimes don’t see – he’s not a machine, and its obvious that the negativity is starting to be heard in the front office.

What did that tell us? He’s human, he loves what he does, and he doesn’t put up well with idiots. Sounds like a damn fine GM to me.

I’m think he’s waiting on Sheets to pull a Lohse…he’s smart, and he’ll play chicken with the other teams as long as possible. I hope, anyway…

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jan 21, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

unprofessional? maybe...

But I really like it when a smart, knowledgeable, and powerful person rubs it in the face of one of the idiots from the pitchfork wielding masses.

Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote.

by Gregatron on Jan 21, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i love it, more power to MO

i just wish he’d come on here & answer the real tough questions instead of the soft ball crap the PD gives him.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 22, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Porcello at #10

Ugh. The Kozma pick looks worse and worse everyday.

We might have the best farm system in the league if we had Porcello.

by MattK on Jan 21, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

well

a “strike-throwing, ground-ball-generating machine, throwing two-seamer after two-seamer” has no place in our system.

Just keep telling myself, “TINSTAAPP, it’s too early to tell…” And since law only has one infielder in his top 25, and that guy has makeup issues AND might not be the age we think he is, kozma is probably underrated by his system.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 21, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

really?

i feel better and better about the Kozma pick everyday…i think he can at leaset be a league average SS…if Porcello becomes the next John Smoltz and Kozma turns into Tripp Cormer ill feel differently but there are too many things that can go wrong with pitchers and Porcello is still a ways away from making a contribution…

"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber

by nomar34 on Jan 21, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

you must resign yourself to the fact

that the Cardinals will never give a fat contract to a high school pitcher. never. just pretend they don’t exist. otherwise, porcelloitis will kill you slowly

I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9

by erik on Jan 21, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions  

It's because we cured the Hep A

Hep A was fighting off the various other conditions you had because of a childhood genetic disorder that was triggered when our parents did in a drink driving accident. Essentially, we could have let the Hep kill you slowly or we could have cured you and watched you die faster. Tough choice.

My shoulder hurts.

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 21, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Truth is your mother and your pharmacist conspired

to kill you. Your pharmacist accidentally filled your cough medicine script with gout medicine. Normally, being taken off the gout meds would have shown rapid signs of improvement. However, when you got worse we reexamined the symptoms. None of them connected to the diagnosis of one single disease, so we treated you for hyperthyroidism. All this did was destroy your immune system.

Ultimately, the simplest answer was that people screw up and it was actually your mother stupidly giving you another dose of your cough medicine secretly that caused your illness to progress when it shouldn’t.

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 22, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

No

It was the day I discovered his real name is Frederick Alfred Porcello. This was before the draft.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 22, 2009 1:36 AM EST up reply actions  

nice, i've just started watching House, it's pretty good

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 22, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

They've taken it down

but I’ll duke it out with KLaw on 11 players better than rasmus.

by azruavatar on Jan 21, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with you

There are a couple of players on that list that are at least a year away from sniffing the majors. I’ll take a guy who has put up solid numbers at AA and AAA rather than a guy who has yet to face premium competition.

by MattK on Jan 21, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

apparently daryl jones came in #50, as well

They took it down before I could read anything but 1-25, but a poster at the BTF thread on this article posted some of the details…

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 21, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

I really appreciate the thought and effort put into this entry.

Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote.

by Gregatron on Jan 21, 2009 10:25 PM EST reply actions  

Thank you

for finally getting that little icon thingy next to the address. I use those for my bookmarks and now my list looks a lot better.

Pujols for Secretary of Defense.

by davethebutcher on Jan 21, 2009 10:48 PM EST reply actions  

If it hasn't gone away,

delete the bookmark and re-save it. That ought to work.

by spants on Jan 21, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

you mean you DON'T

want an English Cavalier icon next to VEB in your bookmark list? Sounds like an excellent setup to me…

"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Jan 22, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

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