Hot Stove -- 1/20 thru 1/27 or 400+ comments
by fourstick on Jan 20, 2009 9:23 AM EST
358 comments
Up over 400 posts again, so here's a new thread.
A couple of starting points:
- Over at Beyond the Boxscore they have an excellent book review of Brad Snyder's "A Well Paid Slave", about Curt Flood's fight for free agency in the late '60's and early 70's. (Amazon link here). I read and cited much of this book when I was working on my dissertation on organized labor in professional sports a few years back; it is an excellent read for anyone interested in baseball history.
- Hardcore and some others found an MLBTR link about Sheets asking for 2Y$18M with a third year option from the Mets. To me this screams of a pitcher with possible health issues. He'd be much better off on an incentive laden one year deal with the crappy 2009-2010 free agent class of pitchers.
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Reasoning
There are (imo, at least) two possible reasons why Sheets has approached the Mets with this contract offer.
A) He knows that teams feel he is too big of an injury risk to sign and there is no chance he can land a major deal.
B) With the economy in its current state, no teams (minus the Yankees) are going to be willing to shell out major money on free agents this offseason.
I’d say both of reasons have weight in his decision to offer fairly low demands. Bottom line is Sheets is an ace pitcher. In signing him the Cardinals have the possibility to send out a rotation of:
Carp
Sheets
Waino
Welley
Lohse
I don’t know about you, but to me that looks a whole hell of alot better than:
Carp
Waino
Welley
Lohse
Piniero (Or worse, no Carp and having to thrust Boggs into the rotation)
There is still the possibility that McClellan makes the rotation out of ST, but if we sign Sheets there will be less need to. He can stay in the pen, improving that area of the team, and have more experience for if (or when) he does come to the rotation.
Sheets is worth it. If this is what he is willing to play for, we would be crazy not to give that to him. Sorry this post got long.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 20, 2009 12:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Those three studs at the top
make a mean rotation to face in a short series.
As good or better than Harden, Dempster, and Zambrano.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:
by gocards62 on Jan 20, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think probably better
if all those guys stay healthy, otherwise scratch Zambrano, Harden, Carp, Sheets and see what happens
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 21, 2009 1:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
how he can prove he’s 100% healthy so I’m saying we sign him! That’s less than we’re paying Lohse!
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 20, 2009 12:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Can I amend the doomsday prophecies in the previous hot stove thread to say that
if Ben Sheets signs somewhere for $X/year, and the cardinals sign Garland/Wolf/O.Perez or any other non entity for $Y/year and X-Y is less than $3M, I will just not watch baseball this year.
by tom s. on Jan 20, 2009 12:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I like your math.
Don’t know if I have the willpower to not watch baseball. But I do have the willpower to not go to games.
by spants on Jan 20, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe next year
I can tell the season ticket salesperson that I won’t pay for my tickets until they DO SOMETHING to improve the team. As it is, I already bought the tickets…
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 20, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure the ticket salesperson
has a major influence with the club.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 21, 2009 1:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know, right?
They are probably the ones that tell Mo what he should do. We should all call the Cardinals ticket office and tell them to get Ben Sheets. They’ll pull the strings and Mo will sign him!
Kidding, sorry you missed that above
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 21, 2009 8:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't have that kinda willpower
especially with Pujols and Motte/Perez on the team, not to mention Luddy, Ank, Mather, Razzle, etc
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 21, 2009 1:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Being bold rather than safe
This is not a reclamation project like Clement or even Carp when he first came to the Cards. This is a guy who pitched 198 innings last year! If all he wants is $18 mill for 2 plus an options, the calculus of cost and benefit has most definitely swung into the “let do this frigg’in thing” column. The Pineiro contract just weighs around our neck. It burns me every time I contemplate it.
by jjray on Jan 20, 2009 1:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The only thing I coudl say
is that, for some reason, he wants that from the Mets, but would want more to play here. No knowing about that.
Or else, it’s a crazy lowball rumor to start a bidding war.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Jan 20, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Incentives details
The Rumor has $9mm as the guaranteed portion of the contract
…while sheets is thinking of a two-year deal, worth roughly $9 million per season, with incentives and an option for a third season…
The incentives would probably be based on GS or IP. Maybe something like $500,000 each for breaking 100, 125, 150, 175, and 200 IP. Just a SWAG on the incentives.
FWIW, Lohse’s 2008 contract had the following clause – performance bonuses: $0.1M each for 160, 170, 180, 190, 200 IP, so he cleared an extra $500k on top of the base $4.25M
by ubeddie on Jan 20, 2009 2:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I would be ok with this
- Contract: 2 Years, $9M base salary for each, 3rd year vesting option based on 350 innings combined in seasons one and two.
- Incentives: $1M for 175 IP and an additional $1M for 200 IP. $1M for winning Cy Young award. $500,000 for making the All-Star team.
With this contract, the most we’d end up paying him is $11.5M in any one year, and he would only get the third year if he was healthy enough to pitch an average of 175 innings in each of the first two seasons. Total contract value would be around $34.5M if he hits all the incentives, including in the vesting year.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 20, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is
about the same total money wise we supposedly offered K-Rod, and all of it would have been guaranteed. The money still there in the form of dry powder. Hope Mo doesn’t blow himself up with that stuff.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Jan 20, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a steal
for such a talented pitcher.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 20, 2009 7:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thompson signs
mlbtraderumors reports $650,000 for PK.
by soil_illini on Jan 20, 2009 2:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
im almost amazed
we even wanted him back
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
NO Garland, NO Wolf, NO Looper!
by jealousblues on Jan 20, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it gets really thin once you get past our first four -- er, five -- starting pitchers.
Boggs, maybe KMac. Then we start digging up the minors for Todd, Walters, etc. or trying to get Ryan Franklin back into starting shape. We lost both Garcia and Parisi from last year — neither of them were great, but they could pitch without falling down.
We had substantial injuries to Wellemeyer, Wainwright, Carpenter, and Pineiro last year. So, I think at $650K/yr, we can afford someone whose greatest virtue is staying in the game for five innings and not leaving us trailing by double digits.
by tom s. on Jan 20, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't know about Parisi
saw him pitch in DC. Good AB though :)
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:
by gocards62 on Jan 20, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why not something like,
2009 – 8M, plus 500k bonuses for 150 and 200 IP
2010 option 8M, plus bonuses 3M buyout
2011 option 10M, plus bonuses 3M buyout
11M guaranteed, two option years rather than a three year contract.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Jan 20, 2009 4:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
if h wants two years guaranteed
then I think if we/they are serious about getting him, give him the damn two years guaranteed. This team likes taking chances, I say they take a damn good one this time, instead of giving Loop/Garland/Wolf/some other retread almost comparable money. Sure, someone like Looper might be decent , but damnit, I want someone with the chance to be something special instead of someone who is just going to make us go “meh”.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 20, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that looks like...
the type of low-ball offer the cardinals might offer
I hate winter!!!!
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 20, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is there anything to prove the Cards are interested in Sheets
or are we just being hopeful that they will sign him
by ultimatecardinalfan on Jan 20, 2009 8:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
On a day of hope, let us all say:
YES WE CAN (sign Ben Sheets)!
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Jan 21, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if I was really good at photoshop
I’d be all over turning the red and blue “HOPE” poster into a headshot of Ben Sheets.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 21, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The internets are a wonderful place
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Jan 21, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
a wonderful place, indeed.
nice find.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 21, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he looks kinda scary there
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 21, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just like the original occupant
*cough Ben Sheets *cough Sheets
I must be getting a Sheets cold.
by bearcatcardfan on Jan 21, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
original occupant?
obama not look scary if that what you mean…
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I always thought
it looked kind of creepy. Nothing against the President but pictures like that give me a kind of Big Brother vibe. Now if Ben Sheets is the big brother, I’m cool with it. ;)
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 24, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I know wha tyou mean
I like Obama — quite a bit actually. But I’m not into the whole personality cult many people are pushing.
Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote.
by Gregatron on Jan 25, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
pure, unadulterated hope...
but really they would be getting an extremely talented pitcher, with ace potential for few years at a bargain price…
unless he is really messed up its silly not to be interested
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
NO Garland, NO Wolf, NO Looper!
by jealousblues on Jan 21, 2009 3:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
PUH is the sound the catchers mit makes
when it explodes with hopeasity (I have no idea hwat I just said)
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
NO Garland, NO Wolf, NO Looper!
by jealousblues on Jan 21, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When polls are added to these fanposts, can we please represent more viewpoints.
I for one would like Sheets, but I’m worried because he has to be scaring a bunch of teams off for a reason.
So what do I put, I don’t think it’s a terrible signing, but it also scares me a little.
by TheBirds on Jan 21, 2009 1:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you
Sheet’s is great when healthy, but he hasn’t proven he can do that. Also he will cost us a first round pick, which isn’t worth it for a short term contract.
I would really like to see a trade for a 5 starter with some upside. A guy like Rich Hill who is out of options and could come cheap, although the Cubs might not be willing to give us anyone. Brogglio for Brock still stings 50 years later.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 21, 2009 1:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then you put yes
The point of the poll is to see whether the whole of VEB thinks that this is an acceptable risk or not. You can’t have your cake and eat it too — you either sign him or you don’t. Mo doesn’t get the luxury of “I worry about signing this guy because of his injury problems in the past, but he was a horse last year and he’s awesome when healthy…”, Mo has to make a decision of whether he’s worth the risk or not, so that’s what the poll is trying to gauge.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 21, 2009 8:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not like it's his only move. I would rather have Pettitte.
And then of course there is the option of a trade.
I’d do it provided we can’t do either of those. But I’m sorry, Hell yes, Absolutely! Doesn’t represent my feelings about a Ben Sheets signing.
by TheBirds on Jan 21, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then you check No and get on with your life...
I’m not sure what your issue really is, actually. It’s a simple choice, you either favor signing him at less than he made last year or you don’t.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 21, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why, I dont think he's a terrible risk based on $$.
You see my problem. I wouldn’t sign him if I could get something done like in my last post, you basically only represented 2 extremes and oversimplified what a GM does. I like Sheets, but I wouldn’t “absolutely” make that offer to him without trying other options first.
In the future I hope you react better to minor criticisms. Rather than acting rude, I recommend you just “get on with your life” instead of posting these kind responses.
by TheBirds on Jan 21, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Minor criticism?
I put a poll question up regarding one specific move that the front office might make. You decided to take issue with my poll because it didn’t have 7 other options of moves the front office makes — and you’re continuing to argue with me over it.
I’m not acting rude — you’re being rude by not recognizing what the poll was about in the first place.
You see my problem. I wouldn’t sign him if I could get something done like in my last post, you basically only represented 2 extremes and oversimplified what a GM does.
No, I fail to see your problem at all. There are no better pitchers on the market right now either through trade or via free agency. If you aren’t interested in Sheets at that price it’s because you feel he wouldn’t live up to his end of the bargain because of injury or that he’s simply not worth that amount over that period of time. That seems to be your problem — you feel that you could do better for that money. That’s fine — then you just check no. You could still make a trade for a young pitcher afterwards if you wanted to. It’s not an extreme decision, it’s a decision, and, honestly, a simple one as well. If he’s available at that price than you’re either interested or your not, regardless of the other options.
Your criticism wasn’t necessary because the question that was asked doesn’t pertain to what you want to talk about — so you put it in a comment. That is what the fan-post is for.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 21, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if you keep repeating yourself, you won't change my mind
seriously, just leave it alone. You post the same thing over and over again, each time with a little more crass so I will feel compelled to respond.
You have really blown my original comment way out of proportion.
by TheBirds on Jan 21, 2009 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
?
How have I done that?
When polls are added to these fanposts, can we please represent more viewpoints.
I for one would like Sheets, but I’m worried because he has to be scaring a bunch of teams off for a reason.
So what do I put, I don’t think it’s a terrible signing, but it also scares me a little.
That’s your original post. You don’t think that Mo doesn’t think that is a terrible signing but that the injury history also scares him a little? I’m sure he does, but he still has to make a decision of whether to offer Sheets a contract like the one in the bulleted post above. He either does, or he doesn’t, he doesn’t get to sit on the fence while someone else offers Sheets that same contract and he signs it. That’s what the poll is about.
You want the poll to be about what move to make regarding the roster, not specifically whether to sign Ben Sheets — if that’s the case then go ahead and create a new fan post asking for everyone’s opinions of what move should be made next. Criticizing my poll doesn’t get you more information about the topic you want to discuss, so why are you doing it?
When you criticize me, sir, I have the right to respond. It is not intended to be crass, if you feel that way than perhaps you are the one who can’t take criticism.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 21, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Pettitte isn’t coming to St. Louis — he would retire first, and he has said so in many an interview over the last 3-4 years. It’s been covered here ad nauseum.
The poll question is about Sheets specifically, it has nothing to do with what you think the next move should be or who you think the club should sign, that’s what the fanpost is for, discussion. If you wouldn’t sign Sheets for what he was asking for from the Mets then you check no, and you flesh out why in a comment on the post.
Giving out 7 different options is just a bad poll — you can’t possibly cover all of the moves that the Cardinals might make, but you can get an effective idea of how the community feels about signing a player like Sheets at a certain price, given the injury risk.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 21, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't ask a question that warrents many responsed if you don't want to put them then.
What is so hard to put “Is Ben Sheets worth X’ or "at the cost of X, is Ben Sheets the best option for the Cardinals”. Hey, these actually have a legit yes/no answers.
by TheBirds on Jan 21, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ummmmmm
That is essentially the question posted.
Should the Cardinals take the risk of signing Ben Sheets to a 2Y$18M deal with a 3rd year player option if he can’t prove he’s 100% healthy?
That is a yes or no question — “Yes, they should take the risk” or “No, they shouldn’t take the risk.” You’re the one making into a multi-faceted question on various roster moves that could be made by the front office.
Hey, now who’s being crass? :-)
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 21, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do I have 2 different answers than?
Is the the best option IMO? No
Should we sign him? Well, maybe…..
by TheBirds on Jan 21, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because you're a fence sitter
Hence, you should answer no to the question. You would not offer him that contract right now, you would explore other options first. You don’t have two different answers, you’re saying no to the question and then following up by saying that you would explore other options first. You’re essentially answering a question that wasn’t asked, which is fine, but it has no bearing on my original question.
If you’re the GM, this is the question you have to answer. If you say no, then you explore other options and hope the Sheets is still available if all else fails. But that is a risk because some other team might sign him before you exhaust all the other options on your plate.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 8:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is with the commentary after the answer, not the question itself.
The question requires a yes/no response only but answering one way or another may misrepresent one’s thought process or opinion on the answer.
For example, let’s say I voted yes but before I did so, I deliberated for a while before answering. After voting, my yes vote is represented as a no-brainer “abolutely” vote when in fact it was a borderline yes.
Yes or no answers suffice.
by your_all_morans on Jan 23, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
your_all_morans...
I’m just hoping YOUR login name is a clever joke.
Why don't we get glausy eyed and put back some franklin's....
by punksoulbrutha on Jan 26, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If what you say is true
that they cannot prove sheets is healthy, then yeah, don’t sign him… otherwise, sign him for that yesterday!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 21, 2009 1:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
sheets
asking for that contract is a definite sign of health issues. the only reason a free agent of his caliber wouldn’t be signed by now is that either he is asking too much or he is hurt. if someone with bad health history of his caliber would be signed by now.
him asking for that contract obviously shows that his contract demands aren’t outrageous and in fact you could say those “demands” are extremely team friendly. so then it must be health. and not the kind of “we’re not sure if he’ll be ready for opening day” health. its got to be a “not sure if he’ll play this year” kind of health. do we really want to have another pitcher heal and rehab on our payroll? i would think most of us have had enough of that the last couple of years.
if every team in the majors in passing on him (especially the brewers) then something has to be very wrong with him.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 21, 2009 2:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
yeah, the only way that a talented pitcher who has a history of health problems but no active inability
to pitch wouldn’t get signed is if all the teams with tons of money went out and filled their rosters with expensive pitchers of similar skill but with fewer health concerns and the economy simultaneously went down the tubes in a way not seen in fifty years, thus causing enormous uncertainty in the market and making all the other teams in the world say, either it’s time to start shrinking payroll or oh crap, I want to see what the next guy does.
oh wait.
this ‘sheets must be hiding something’ conspiracy theory is a little overblown. It’s not like teams are signing lesser but safer pitchers to contracts. Nobody’s signing ANYBODY except the absolute top tier candidates. if the Mets and the Brewers start handing oliver perez and jon garland and randy wolf $8M contracts and nobody will touch Sheets for $7M on a one year, then yeah I agree. but right now, I think it’s a fair bet that it’s the economy.
by tom s. on Jan 21, 2009 2:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that is the point
sheets is a “top tier” pitcher. he was next in line after sabathia.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 21, 2009 4:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
asking price
sheets should be asking for 15-16 mil a year, not 9 mil. the economy wouldn’t affect him that much.
so you are telling me that there wouldn’t be teams lining up to sign sheets if he was healthy?
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 21, 2009 4:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there's a confusing issue here in the use of the word "healthy"
Everybody knows Sheets has missed substantial time three of the last four seasons with injury. In that sense he’s not “healthy”. He’s not CC-Sabathia, Derek-Lowe healthy. And that everyone knows.
The question posed is whether Sheets is hiding some ongoing season-ending type injury that wouldn’t let him pitch tomorrow — is he Matt-Clement unhealthy? I don’t think that it is clear that Sheets has that injury. It may be that he does.
I am saying that, in these economic circumstances, it is highly possible that a talented pitcher with a serious injury history, rather than an active injury, would not find clubs not the Yankees lining up around the block to pay him 8 figures.
by tom s. on Jan 21, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and yet
the yankees were the first in line to sign aj burnett?
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 21, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I find the burnett signing perplexing, and I said that at the time.
But I think it’s perplexing in its own right, rather than relative to Sheets not getting an offer.
I don’t think you play down the fact that the yanks have been watching burnett every season in the AL East, versus Sheets who they’ve rarely seen in the NL Central.
Some of it is the effect of buzz — Sheets got to wear the “injury-risk” hairshirt this year, though he’s not a risk relative to lots of pitchers. But otherwise reputable journalists tagged Sheets with that label while simultaneously pimping Burnett, Perez, Wolf, etc. If otherwise sensible folks are falling for that label, then I don’t see why GM’s wouldn’t fall for it.
But I just found that Burnett signing bizarre — Burnett is not a five-year guy by any stretch of the imagination. Hell, sheets is not a five-year guy. A lot of this is just the Yankees exceptionalism — when you have that ridiculous money, you throw it at some questionable names.
by tom s. on Jan 21, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
but they have all this money to compensate for the attention that the athlete faces in the New York media(Although people like Manny love it), and the fact that New York isn’t as desirable of a place to play baseball compared to Los Angeles.
by Taskmaster on Jan 21, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
information
i think GM’s are on the whole much more informed than most folks. and especially in this case. if something is too good to be true (i.e. sheets signing for 9 mil a year) than it is. There are plenty of teams out there that could throw that kind of money at him with the cardinals being one of them. and yet nobody has even given him a serious offer it seems. there has to be something else going on there rather than just clubs afraid of ticket sales next year.
demand has been extremely high on this board for signing him partly because he could be the ace of this club and also because he would be a bargain. i’m saying there has to be a reason he is a bargain and in this case the likely culprit is a current injury (not just health risk).
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 21, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
GM's don't make dumb decisions? they don't act on poor reasoning?
everything they do is logical? especially when confronted with an enormous unknown like is unemployment going to be 18 percent in August when I’m trying to sell baseball tickets?
The edgar renteria signing must somehow make sense then. Somehow that was a good deal. and everyone here is too blind to see the rationale. Orlando Cabrera MUST be secretly injured. It couldn’t possibly be that Cabrera remains unsigned because the hot stove season is an enormous game of musical chairs and sometimes people are left standing because they overplay their hand or because of dumb luck.
by tom s. on Jan 21, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i didn't say they didn't make dumb decisions
i said they are in general more informed than the most “sensible folks.” and orlando hudson isn’t signed yet because his value is very debatable. if his defense is average to below average than his value is terribly diminished. ben sheets value isn’t debatable. if he is healthy then he is extremely valuable to a team. there is no analog to him left on the free agent market except for manny ramirez. and the reason ramirez isn’t signed goes back to my other reason of asking for too much money.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 22, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i said orlando cabrera, not hudson. and i certainly think he's better than renteria.
but your premise is that the only way a FA of sheets’ caliber would be not signed is if he were hurt or asking for too much money.
and while you didn’t say that GM’s don’t make mistakes, you did try to use one signing (burnett) to justify your point, rather than a general trend of FA signings. Using a single instance of GM action to justify a larger point suggests you believe that that one signing could not have been a mistake.
I argue that this whole offseason is moving extremely slowly, barring a handful of real prime FA’s, because of the economy. you haven’t really sought to refute the notion that the economy is seriously affecting the free agent market.
again, your statements are a little misleading. “if he is healthy then he is extremely valuable to a team.” yes and no. Going back to a prior point, if he is not actively injured he is valuable, but still has averaged a relatively low IP number over the last four seasons — more than 100 but nowhere near 200. That inconsistency, rather than a current injury, is more than enough to explain him being excluded from the top rank of FA’s.
I don’t see how you look at a FA market where Adam Dunn and Bobby Abreu remain unsigned (for economic reasons rather than health- or greed-related reasons) and say the economy can’t explain why an oft-injured, but talented pitcher remains unsigned.
Look around — maybe 20 teams are basically sitting out the offseason. These teams have limited their activity to stabilizing their rosters, offering arb, resigning low-cost players, and picking up minor pieces. A few teams (Oakland and Tampa Bay) are making a few daring pickups. Another maybe 8 teams (yanks, mets, braves, red sox, angels, giants, royals, cubs) are buying up lots of FAs. If those few teams don’t want or need Sheets, he goes unsigned.
last, there’s an enormous groupthink to the hot stove. No one wants to make a first bid and essentially bid against themselves. That’s why multiple teams bid on one player at a time. So if no one else is bidding on Sheets, what’s the reason for any team to bid on him now, if by making him sit on the hot stove, his price will decline? The process can become very circular when uncertainty enters the picture. Sheets’ prior health issues and the economy are sufficient to justify that. SInce nobody knows how to price Sheets (or numerous excellent free agents) in this economy, nobody makes a move. Some FA’s get signed early because teams are desperate for their services or believe that they can get a bargain. But in this case, the economic uncertainty and sheets’ track record can certainly explain why no bids are reported yet.
by tom s. on Jan 22, 2009 3:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"if he is healthy he is extremely valuable"
was not a misleading statement. i can’t remember if it was a fan post or a main thread but somebody showed sheets numbers the last few seasons and if he is on the field he is valuable. even if he gives you only 100 innings a year he is still worth more than average pitchers over 200 innings.
again, there is no analog left to him on the free agent market. i look at dunn and abreu and see to players that would not be worth their contracts. dunn’s defense is atrocious and almost negates his offensive contributions. abreu is on the backside of his career and would be a bad signing. i’m not sure how you look at those two players and cabrera and think they are equivalent in value to sheets.
i mentioned burnett because he was the best analog to sheets on the market this offseason. and the fact that the yankees signed him instead of sheets lends credence to my point i think. if you looked at those pitchers side by side and both were currently healthy, you would choose sheets every time. the yankees didn’t choose him so that leads me to believe sheets is injured. you can say that they signed burnett because they have watched him pitch in their division over the past few seasons and that very well could be. like you said, it is just one instance.
you haven’t really sought to refute the notion that the economy is seriously affecting the free agent market.
i guess what i am saying is that i don’t need to because sheets is one of those “prime” free agents when healthy. as i said previously i think he was the best pitcher on the market after sabathia. and yet several pitchers have been signed before him and he is asking for a low dollar mulit-year contract from the mets.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 22, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think we have probably run this out.
but i’d just say in closing that while I happily defend sheets from his detractors as a valuable FA, I also can’t join the starry-eyed in ignoring the fact that any team that takes him may very well have to have a reserve starter make 8-12 starts in 2009. That, regardless of how talented he is, is an enormous problem and does sap his value.
it is also undeniable that this is a terrible year to be a free agent.
last, it is hard to take single signings and compare them to draw conclusions. I can’t say that ibanez is a better outfielder than Dunn b/c he got signed first. I can’t say Renteria is a better SS than Cabrera b/c he got signed first. I certainly don’t think cabrera or dunn are injured. I think they are talented players in a bad market who, despite having substantial value, have one glaring drawback (defense, in Dunn’s case; offense in Cabrera’s). The same could be said of Sheets — a very talented player with one glaring drawback: durability.
we will find out in time if sheets is harboring an injury. but I don’t think that we should conclude he MUST have one.
by tom s. on Jan 22, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
read that to
doesn’t do much for me. the fact that they had to re-release an updated medical report means that they were in damage control mode. there was obviously something in that earlier file that was pretty damaging. you can say i told you so but it also wasn’t the economy that was holding his signing back.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 24, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
One look at the Royals off season so far proves that.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 22, 2009 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hiding something
i also don’t think he is necessarily hiding something. i just don’t think he is advertising his current health status and with good reason.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 21, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then why didn't the economy effect AJ Burnett?
He’s older than Sheets, has a more significant injury history, and pitched around the same number of innings last year and wasn’t quite as good as Sheets was in 2008. Yet he still got paid. Hmmmm…must be because he signed with the Yankees. That’s probably part of it, but that isn’t the whole story. There are teams out there spending money. The Yankees, Mets, Braves and Dodgers have spent money, and the Giants, A’s, White Sox, Angels, and Nationals have all looked at spending money. There is a market out there, but Sheets doesn’t seem to be getting any love. Then the rumor comes out that he requested a contract where he makes less than he did last year and less than he would have received in arbitration, and the Mets still aren’t interested because they want him on a similar contract to what Brad Penny signed for, and he didn’t pitch much at all last year and spent significant time on the disabled list. Something is fishy about that, you have to admit. Maybe he is healthy, but there’s no way to know that, and teams aren’t going to invest money in a pitcher who might spend significant time on the disabled list within the next two years.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 21, 2009 9:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
burnett wasn't affected because cashman went BSI
(or whoever makes the decisions at yankees HQ). it happens.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 21, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree about Cashman or Baby Hank
but there were multiple other teams (Atlanta, the Mets, Boston) who were rumored to be paying him around $60M to $70M over 4 to 5 years. It’s not like the Yankees were the only ones — they weren’t. Hell, St Louis was even rumored to be interested in Burnett, but the terms weren’t disclosed.
Ben Sheets threw 198 innings last season of better baseball than AJ Burnett, is younger, and has a less significant injury history. So why is it that nobody will touch him with a 10 foot pole? The only answer I can come up with as that they know something injury related that we don’t or have seen something related to his health that we aren’t picking up about him.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 21, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 21, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great quote by the way...
“Oh, you trace?”
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 21, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah....
… if he’s really only asking for 2/18 with some incentives, then he’s definitely hurt.
but it might still be worth signing him.
by kindred on Jan 21, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
reminds me of the logic in the princess bride
“But it’s so simple. All we have to do is divine from what we know of MLB GM’s: are they the sort of men who would give a guy who ended the season on the DL $15M/year? Now, a clever GM would offer him much less than $15M/year, because he would know that only a great fool of a GM would pay someone who might be hurt what he’s asking for. But Ben Sheets is not a great fool, so he clearly could not accept what they are offering, and Ben Sheets must have known THEY were not great fools — he would have counted on it — so he may have asked for just $9M/year. Plus incentives.”
While the truth is, he’s both hurt and not hurt, and you’ll die whether you sign him or not.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 21, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
you've fallen for one of the two classic blunders
the most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia,
but only slightly less famous is never sign a starting pitcher with an injury history to multi-year contract!! A-HA-HA-HA-HA-A-HA-HA . . . >thunk<.
by tom s. on Jan 21, 2009 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Was that Carpenter powder...
From what the front office is saying, they’d bet their lives on it.
Sign someone who can pitch, then let this team play.
by IL and StL Fan on Jan 21, 2009 9:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but we've spent the last 2 years
immunizing ourselves to carpenter powder…
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 21, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
inconceivable!
…i don’t think that word means what you think it means…
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
by adiueordie on Jan 25, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Given our pitching injury history,
I think we always fight to the pain…
Sign someone who can pitch, then let this team play.
by IL and StL Fan on Jan 25, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ever heard
of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates? Morons.
by Toddius on Jan 27, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
they just didn’t know anything.
Chuck Norris bows to no man...but he does bow to The Mang.
by miniboscorino on Jan 28, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Had to sign players fast
before the Yanks asked NYC for more money to finish the stadium. Wanted to be able to say with a straight face that resources were committed elsewhere.
by ubeddie on Jan 21, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't say...
the Cardinals would be doomed by making the offer and he signs. I’m sure the result is still pending a physical, which if completed thoroughly should result in finding the “injury” that he has. If he checks out clean, then fantastic, we get a great pitcher for a bargain.
by Jumsy on Jan 23, 2009 6:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With Lohse as a #5 I can’t find any reason to argue with that, more so if he’s going relativly cheap.
Do it MO
by CardFan@theLake on Jan 21, 2009 7:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Totally OT but interesting
If and when John Garland signs with someone, the Angels will have 5 picks in the top 60 in the 2009 draft, although none in the top 20 picks. Had they not signed Fuentes they would have 6 picks in the top 60.
That’s a whole lot of picks near the top of the draft for a team that has produced quite a few good players out of their farm system over the past 15 years…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 21, 2009 10:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
John Mo said...
That he believes a rotation of Carp, Waino, Welley, Lohse and… yep, Pineiro is competitive enough and strong enough to go all season long.. And if one of them goes on the DL, he says we have a lot of prospects available.
Basically, when asked if he was going to make a move for a 5th starter, Mo said he felt confident enough about the guys we currently have…
So apparently Sheets is nowhere in Mo’s plans… A sad, sad day indeed.
My source? http://www.stltoday.com/discussions/sports/cards-live/LD011609628/all
Yadi swings and hits a high fly ball... Endy Chavez goes back, to the track, to the wall... ITS A GUNNER!! Yadi gives St. Louis the lead in the top of the ninth!
by Paulspike on Jan 21, 2009 4:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
what's a shame is that
“competitive” is now our standard. “Winning rotation” is too much to hope for.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 21, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
we are content with mediocre as opposed to winning.
this team is complacent
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
NO Garland, NO Wolf, NO Looper!
by jealousblues on Jan 21, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it makes it more interesting
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 21, 2009 7:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haha
they’re going for the “disney movie” approach. Can’t be the guys who look best on paper!
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 21, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
“look at this group of overachievers go!”
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 21, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he also said
that they are always looking to improve and might take a risk on a pitcher. (don’t remember the exact words) So he at least left a grain of hope out there.
also, I like the fact that he responded to the I hate dewitt!! guy with his own smart ass comment, and didn’t just ignore it. He had some very political answers. He can’t really come out and publicly say “Pinero, you suck”
by STLRegalia on Jan 21, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i thought it was a joke
he only answered like 15 questions and wasted two of them to respond to that crap.
not like we were going to get anything out of him anyway, but what a waste
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
NO Garland, NO Wolf, NO Looper!
by jealousblues on Jan 21, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he picks the questions...
I could be wrong about that.
by mattybobo on Jan 22, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You've got to be kidding me
Most would agree a rotation is rarely defined by the fifth starter, however I would note that having a rotation of Carp, Wainwright, Lohse, Wellemeyer, and Pineiro is more than strong enough to win games. I would also note that we do have McClellan, Boggs, Walters, and Todd if we need them.
But we feel good about [our] rotation as of today.
So this means we are counting on all 5 of those guys being healthy. That also means that our best-case scenario involves Joel freaking Pineiro taking the ball every fifth day. I’m all for patience and all that, but this is kind of ridiculous. We lost our #4 starter from last year and are not replacing him. I don’t understand.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 21, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that, or he's trying to gain leverage
or more likely, not lose leverage, for negotiations with whoever it is of the current free agent starters left over after the shuffle ends.
I’m worried that his success with Lohse has clouded his judgement, and really worried that it sounds like he’s letting bernie’s shenanigans get to him.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 21, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree on the leverage
Don’t forget the “lost leverage” outcry that occurred when Tony declared Fuentes our number one priority. And to top it off, Mo isn’t bad mouthing any of our players. He does have to be pretty vanilla on these answers.
by ubeddie on Jan 22, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and later in an interview on 101
He also said that they were many unsigned players they were keeping an eye on and would be attending several pitche’rs work outs in the next few weeks.
by Evilfrog on Jan 21, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone wins 60 games
everyone loses 60 games. The difference is decided in the 42 in between. Unfortunately, your 5th starter gets 30 starts…so yeah, he could have a sizable impact.
I’d much rather our 5th starter be Todd Wellemeyer than Joel Pineiro.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 22, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
42
is the answer to the universe
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which when you subtract
Albert’s # from it you get 44.
Then divide by 2 = 22.
Then add Ozzie Smith’s number and you get: 23!!!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 22, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
uhoh
I see that number everywhere! j/k
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well you do live in the windy city
playing home of one michael jordan. so it could be that.
or someone is out to get you.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 22, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting approach
Looking at the five starters, wouldn’t you expect the outcome of the majority of those 42 difference games to be influenced by your #1 and # 2 starters. In other words, the games started by a # 5 for a playoff team will hover around .500, but the team should have a winning pct closer to .650 for games started by their Ace. Using the following winning pct for Games Started and assuming 32 games each (two extra games are split), the team would finish with 89 wins.
- 1 – .650 (21-11)
- 2 – .600 (19-13)
- 3 – .550 (18-14)
- 4 – .500 (16-16)
- 5 – .450 (14-18)
Drop all the winning pcts by .025 and the team finishes at .500.
Last Years GS records
Waino – 15-5, .750
Lohse – 18-15, 545
Looper – 15-18, .455
Welley – 15-17, 469
Piniero – 12-13, 480
Others – 11-8, 579 (Boggs, Thompson, Carp, Parisi, Garcia & Mulder)
by ubeddie on Jan 22, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have never understood that
not everybody loses 60 games. That math needs to be fixed.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 22, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ok
it not perfect, but rarely does someone lose less than 60 games!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just understand it better when 54 is used
of course some teams go and screw that one up too.
54+54+54=162
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 22, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Only problem
I have with that rotation (besides the fact that Pineiro may be in it) is the reliance on Carp. I love Carp, when healthy, easily one of the top 5 starters in NL. But anything we get from him this year should be considered a bonus (even if it’s over 30 starts). The whole scenario is very Cubsian, pre Pinella. For years their whole season was built around Wood and Pryor being healthy starters, and we know how that generally turned out.
by AirForceCardsFan on Jan 22, 2009 6:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't like replying to myself, but oh well
Also seems like a built in excuse, if Carp doesn’t go for an entire season the FO can go, “Well injuries killed us this year blah, blah, blah.”
by AirForceCardsFan on Jan 22, 2009 6:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What I think they are going to do
is just wait until the last second and see what the best deal is left, since we could upgrade in any of starting pitching, (possibly) bullpen, and 2B… not a bad idea really, it keeps everyone on their toes also
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 21, 2009 7:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think that the team is set at 2B, imo.
I don’t see us signing any of the remaining free agents or trading for anyone unless our socks get knocked off by a deal, which doesn’t seem likely, considering what the Yankees wanted for Cano. They’ll go to war with Kennedy, Thurston, Ryan, and Greene making a fight for the job in spring training.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 9:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's not too bad a situation really
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
unless we carry all 4 of those guys
that would be very bad.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it would
that would mean carrying 5 middle infielders. I meant Tyler Greene in the original comment, not Khalil. He’s the starting SS unless he’s hurt…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anybody else think that Piniero will improve?
The FO still likes him and barring a trade or a FA signing, he will get the ball every fifth day. The guy has a better history of success than Lohse and was good for us in a short time last season. This guy definitely has the potential to be a good starter, at least good enough for the 5 hole.
Having said that, we need to upgrade the middle area of Lohse, Wellemeyer and Carp. Lohse and Welly figure to regress and Carp will probably miss a lot of time. Getting a guy like Sheets would really help. Carp and Sheets would be a very good two headed ace, probably combining for 200 innings at worst, at best we would have the best top 3 in baseball. That would allow for some regression from Lohse and Welly without crippling the rotation, and it would allow Piniero not to have such an impact on the team.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 21, 2009 9:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ugh...
I don’t disagree with your point about him having a better history than Lohse. How on Earth did the Cardinals end up paying so much, for so little?
This is where the Cardinals need to improve when it comes to drafting – starting pitchers. Not just good guys, but guys that can come in and be replacement level (or slightly better) starters like Pineiro and Lohse, but for cheap.
Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)
by DiscoJer on Jan 21, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he's as good as lohse
but that’s been my point all along, have another guy who is at carp’s level around in case one of them goes down…
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 21, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I see your logic Chitown, but consider this one...
We obviously don’t know what Sheets will get but for the sake of things, let’s say he gets 10M for next year and signs with the Cardinals. Your point is that on the downside, you have two no.1 injury-guys SHARING the No. 2 spot as they will most likely miss significant time. With a 10M salary for Sheets, you are in essence paying 24M for two guys who’s performance would and could rival some of the best pitchers in the game. Nobody makes 24M either, with Johan Santana and CC being the only over the 22M mark. So, a mid-market team that is very cost-conscious is in essence paying to have the highest paid “pitcher” on their staff by using a hydra of sorts—Carpenter/Sheets as a No. 2. There is no economical, logical, business-minded person in baseball who would do that.
Now, there is some potential upside to all this, that is each is relatively healthy, each approaches nearly 200 innings, and you therefore get two aces for the price of one. However, with all of our rampant pessimism about Carpenter’s performance/contribution and health this year, coupled with the apparently similar thinking of 29 other clubs towards Sheets, i feel the “logic” works against your point of view.
Now, i’d love to have Sheets, and I am optimistic he’d consider us, but I don’t think Mo is considering him.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Jan 22, 2009 9:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah but
we make up for that overpaying for pitchers with underpaying Pujols, Ludwick, etc etc etc
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 22, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Sheets would only be on a 2 year deal, so it wouldn’t cripple us that much. We plan to use the same guys we have now, even though there is still money left, why not use it on Sheets.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It would be hard for him to get worse.
83 ERA+
He started 25 games last year. That may not define a rotation, but it is 15% of the team’s games.
Pinero had 3 win-shares in those 25 games. In a lousy year, Garland had 9 win-shares (albeit in 32 starts). Looper had 11 in 33 starts. Wellemeyer had 13 in 32 starts.
I hope and pray that Pinero can do better, because the front office seems to assume he’s in the rotation, but the drop-off from our #4 starter to him last year was just massive.
If the team can do better, within reason, then it should.
Sign someone who can pitch, then let this team play.
by IL and StL Fan on Jan 21, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There's no actual rumor associated with this
but OMG I want Brian Roberts so bad for next season. CHONE and ZiPS both project him for a .370/.420 OBP/SLG type year. He’s 3 wins better than kennedy at the keystone. I mean holy hell he fits into our lineup and needs perfectly.
Prospects I wouldn’t trade for Roberts: Rasmus, Jones, Wallace
The Orioles have been difficult to work with in the past but Roberts would (theoretically) add more wins than an Ben Sheets acquisition.
by azruavatar on Jan 22, 2009 11:54 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
worth keeping an eye on, certainly, as we get closer to the season.
the orioles will try to extend him, but by march they should know. If the extension fails, I think they’ll deal. I can’t imagine they look at 2009 and think there’s a way for them to squeeze into contention in the AL East. I don’t have a notion of what they’d want on a one-year rental. It’ll be a lot.
I sure hope that’s the sort of signing we’re “keeping our powder dry” for.
by tom s. on Jan 22, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Would you want him for just next season?
Or would you look at trying to extend him after that? I don’t think an extension makes any sense for us really, but I agree he puts us in a much better situation in 2009.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
also worth an eyeball is someone else listed on the main page at fishstripes
robert andino is on the block. 24 yo SS, multiple brief shots at the majors, but not much of a chance so far. decent stats in the minors, including a .854 ops last year. any takers?
by tom s. on Jan 22, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
.854 in albequerque
which is the most extreme hitters park in the minor leagues. And it was his third shot at AAA, and his career minor league OPS is .679 (though he’s always been aggressively promoted).
He’d have to be very cheap. And gven how good FL’s talent evaluation is, if he’s on the block he’s probably not worth buying.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 22, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
except that there are two minor multiple all-star blocks in the MIF in Florida.
however good your talent evaluation is, you still may not have room for a decent player if you have hanram and uggla.
the buzz on andino is great fielder, hasn’t quite put the offense together yet. still only 24.
by tom s. on Jan 22, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, thats so hard to believe
but if you say it, I believe it
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
NO Garland, NO Wolf, NO Looper!
by jealousblues on Jan 23, 2009 4:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This kinds of puts things in perspective
http://www.fishstripes.com/2009/1/22/731739/dan-uggla-s-future
People that call the Card’s FO cheap (not so much people here as the PD boards) need to read that.
Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote.
by Gregatron on Jan 22, 2009 11:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Don't we need a second baseman after 2009?
Might as well take advantage of their non-generosity, right?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 22, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wow@jrhana
talk about lacking perspective.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 22, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess
that means extended looks at Freese, Wallace, & Craig in spring training…hopefully Wallace mashes.
by STLRegalia on Jan 22, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Best case scenario
is one of those players really establishes themselves – it also helps us out of our logjam (while hurting the big club, of course).
by Toddius on Jan 22, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there is a seperate discussion about this on the fanposts
can’t say anyone’s super excited, but it could be worse…
"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean
by Molina4MVP on Jan 22, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Anybody else think we should look into
Aaron Heilman, Mr. NLCS Game 7?
Screw you, Aaron Miles. "Hope you tear your ACL, jackass!!" - Carl
by Zoop on Jan 22, 2009 7:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and they could deal him. Spot starter as is.
Screw you, Aaron Miles. "Hope you tear your ACL, jackass!!" - Carl
by Zoop on Jan 22, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see that happening.
I mean, they could turn around and deal him, but they did JUST get him this offseason, so I doubt they’d be eager to let him go before even seeing him play.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 23, 2009 1:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
I love his stuff and he is a heavy groundball pitcher who would thrive under Duncan. He could end up being our best reliever next year if he returns back to 06-07 form, and he could be a very good starter also. And he could pitch batting practice to Yadier Molina.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 22, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that is a good idea
then get backe for pujols and who needs another bat or arm?
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Jan 22, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cards looking at Craig Counsell
After news of the Glaus injury, the cards are reported to be in on Craig Counsell.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/talks-progressi.html
…lame.
"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean
by Molina4MVP on Jan 23, 2009 9:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
That's right!
The best way to replace your power-hitting 3rd baseman is to find a washed up veteran who has a career OPS+ of 78…. But, you can be sure He Has Earned It, as opposed to those younger scalliwags.
/sarcasm
Sign someone who can pitch, then let this team play.
by IL and StL Fan on Jan 23, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't
know that it’s been anything but dumb luck, but Counsell has played for a lot of winning teams. Plus, he has value as a utility guy when Glaus comes back. It doesn’t necessarily mean that he’ll start the most games at 3B. Maybe they just aren’t comfortable with any of the in house guys as the up the middle utility infielder.
by Toddius on Jan 23, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and Livan Hernandez "won" 10 games too.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Jan 23, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hold on a minute there...
He’s not going to “replace” Glaus’ production in the offense, but I don’t think anyone is going to do that. However, he would a very useful stop-gap at 3B in the early part of the year and then make a very good utility player (and you know how Tony loves those guys) because he can play three defensive positions (2B, 3B, and SS) and play them all at an above average rate. His bat isn’t great, but he does have the ability to get on base for most of his career.
Xanthan at Beyond the Boxscore has a good post on Counsell that went up this morning.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 23, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dude's 38. his bUZR, while nice, has declined since 05.
if we want to tread water for a season, then sure, let’s get a 38 year old utility player. but he’s not a long-term solution anywhere. we need to know if freese or the walrus (or craig or barden or whoever) can hack it at third.
if he were free, i wouldn’t take counsell because he would take the opportunities away from our farm kids.
if we don’t play the kids at third base when we have three legit prospects there, then we ought to pack in our farm and just play walt jocketty ball where we try to get undervalued veterans on great deals.
by tom s. on Jan 23, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Counsell
is a Brewer now, so I guess it doesn’t matter. You are right that Counsell has versatility, and that defense is important. I just think we have real third basemen we can use.
The day I saw Aaron Miles in center field was the day I stopped believing that it was a great idea to have guys like that on the team.
Freese, Craig, Wallace…why not?
Sign someone who can pitch, then let this team play.
by IL and StL Fan on Jan 23, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh!
Why can’t we just use our plethora of other utility infielders (Ryan, Thurston, Barden), or better yet our third base prospects (Freese, Craig, Wallace) to see which one sticks. They’ll only have to start for roughly the first 7-10 games. Why go out and waste money on a player who will come off the bench the majority of the season?
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 23, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Keith Law's Prospect List
Idk if anyone has seen it/posted it yet, but he released his top 100 the other day.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=3840355
Colby at 12, Walrus at 19, Daryl Jones at 50 and CPerez at 80 for the Cards.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Jan 23, 2009 12:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This Ben Sheets situation is mind boggling
The Rangers are the only team bidding on him. The Mets are busy trying to lock up Oliver Perez to a 4 year deal. The Brewers are playing the John Mozeliak game of chicken waiting for a pitcher to beg you to let him mow your lawn before signing him.
If Mozeliak is confident in Pineiro, Boggs and K-Mac being able to fill the role of #5 starter…why not sign Sheets and if he DOES get injured THEN use these guys you believe in?
Grumble, Grumble.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 24, 2009 1:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The problem is
that is too logical
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 24, 2009 8:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he medicals
have to be pretty bad, that’s all i can reckon at this pt.
I'll be the one overrating these Faberge' eggs, thank you very much!
Future Redbirds / PAH9
by erik on Jan 25, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are his medical reports
any worse than Benson’s? Apparently Benson is worth our time…
In the words of HL, grumble, grumble.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 25, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Moz would counter this argument with
something like, “Benson would be less of a a financial risk, than Sheets”
Personally I’d rather spend the $18 mil on a guy who may make between 40-60 starts over two years and post around a 3.6ish ERA, then blow $1 mil (cough…Matt Clement…cough) on someone who hasn’t pitched at all in over two seasons. Sheets may be injury-proned, but when he is on the mound he is dominant. Think of the All-Star game. Clint Hurdle had options like Dempster, Haren, Lincecum, Volquez, Webb, and Zambrano, and he chose to start BEN SHEETS!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 25, 2009 8:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we wouldn't be in this mess if we held on to the second guy on the list
but hindsight is 20/20
*cough Ben Sheets *cough Sheets
I must be getting a Sheets cold.
by bearcatcardfan on Jan 25, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Everytime I'm reminded we dealt away Haren
a little part of me dies inside….
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 25, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh Danny Boy, The Pipes, The Pipes Are Calling
From glen to glen, and down the mountain side
The summer’s gone, and all the flowers are dying
‘Tis you, ’tis you must go and I must bide.
But come ye back when summer’s in the meadow
Or when the valley’s hushed and white with snow
‘Tis I’ll be here in sunshine or in shadow
Oh Danny boy, oh Danny boy, I love you so.
And if you come, when all the flowers are dying
And I am dead, as dead I well may be
You’ll come and find the place where I am lying
And kneel and say an “Ave” there for me.
And I shall hear, tho’ soft you tread above me
And all my dreams will warm and sweeter be
If you’ll not fail to tell me that you love me
I’ll simply sleep in peace until you come to me.
I’ll simply sleep in peace until you come to me.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 26, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting stuff
over on MLB trade rumors. Sounds like the water is starting to boil for some of the free agent pitchers. In addition to Sheets and Perez, they say the Dodgers are looking at Wolf, Garland, and Looper. I think I prefer when the front office makes low ball competitive offers to free agents and cries that they “just missed out” as opposed to the current stance of “we spend plenty of money and like the team we have”.
And although I’d prefer one more pitcher if we could only manage one more outside signing, a guy like Hudson would seem to make even more sense now, as another decent bat in the lineup would help steady things until Glaus gets back and take pressure off of whichever rookie has to hold down third base.
Oh, and everyone appears to be all over Russ Springer since he doesn’t cost anyone a draft pick. Not that I’d advocate a 3 million dollar deal for him, but God help us if they make a starter out of McClellan and either Motte or Perez tank. Even if they don’t, they still seem to be a man short.
And the Cardinals? They invited non-roster players to spring training (insert cricket noises here).
Go crazy folks! Go crazy!
What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray
by Tupelo on Jan 24, 2009 11:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
we offered more money than the angels to fuentes
so I’d say it wasn’t a “low ball”. But i’ll be really, really mad if looper signs with LA for $5M.
Some of those non-roster players are very exciting. Wallace, Freese, Todd, Herron, Salas and Samuel, etc.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 25, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fuentes
…was never coming here so I’d say it was more of a “no ball” offer. I’m glad he isn’t because I think that money would be better spent on a starter. But as you say, if guys lile Looper or Sheets start signing bargain deals and we’re not in on it, the hot stove under my arse will go from low simmer to boil quickly.
I am stoked to see the kids this spring and we should see plenty of Wallace, Freese, and Rasmus. I’d just be more excited overall if Pinero and Kennedy figured less prominently in the plans (and Franklin, for that matter). All their money comes off the books next season, I think, so if you can bring in other options at reasonable cost and generate goodwill with the fans, why wouldn’t you?
What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray
by Tupelo on Jan 26, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The more I think about it
The more I realize how smart it would be to sign Sheets. Stupid FO.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 26, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
SHEETS
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 26, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
not offering russ arb
really helped him—though it didn’t do us much good
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jan 29, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
liger???
Lyon signs with the tigers for $4.25mil+incentives.
Well at least we didn’t blow waste that money, but does that mean they are no longer intersted in izzy, and he is all ours?
Is it weird that I would rather the payroll be more like the Marlins than the Yankees?
by ForesterShane on Jan 24, 2009 9:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This is pretty much my favorite pun (of the day)
How come nobody else has made this joke yet?
by mattybobo on Jan 26, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Someone Check The Pilot Light!!!
Maybe that has been the problem. Or someone switched to a convection oven but handed out the wrong pans. STOVE HAS GOT TO WARM UP SOON!!!!!!! Oh, for a freakin’ Nationals minor league signing or something. ANYTHING!?!?
by Beardsville Rockers on Jan 25, 2009 11:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Competition to sign Sheets
Per mlbtraderumors Sheet Rumor Monday, looks like the market for Sheets is dwindling. With the Yanks signing Pettitte we just need the Mets to sign Perez to knock both out of the running. Nothing like losing leverage.
Who else needs pitching and can afford Sheets? We can’t rule out the A’s or Cardinals. The Pirates and D’Backs seem to be budgeting less than Sheets wants.
One problem is Sheet has the same agent a Ryan Howard. Casey Close seems to be ignoring recent market issues in his asking price. Can you say incentive laden two year deal?
by ubeddie on Jan 26, 2009 2:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
howard's going into arbitration.
market conditions don’t exist there.
or more precisely, last year’s market conditions exist there — somehow that’s an improvement.
by tom s. on Jan 26, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If both of the above moves happen...
Then I’m sitting and waiting for the phone to ring if I’m Mo. Or floating a rumor out there that he might be interested in an incentive laden 2-3 year deal.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 26, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
rangers?
haven’t they been mentioned in every thread about Sheets so far?
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 26, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes...
but according to MLB.com, their pitching is set up quite nicely for next season. I can’t even say that with a straight face.
Chuck Norris bows to no man...but he does bow to The Mang.
by miniboscorino on Jan 26, 2009 8:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For them "quite nicely"
is a rotation with an ERA under 6
by vivaelpujols on Jan 26, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they are willing to overpay for pitching..
but for them I think they finally have Chan Ho off the books…haha..when i lived in Texas that guy it seemed would pitch a game miss 4-5..
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Jan 26, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see the Cardinals in the picture
but Sheets would be a great addition to the A’s. They have for years been able to navigate through Rich Harden’s shortened seasons; they have tons of starting pitching depth. They are mostly 4’s and 5’s, but that will keep you hanging in between DL stints for Sheets. You know the A’s LOVE them some starters with a great curveball.
Yay! Sheets to the A’s! Since I follow that team too, I like it.
Or maybe we can hope that the Cards are talking in uber-super secret to Mr. Sheets…….
What if the Cubs swoop in?
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 27, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not gonna happen
About the Cubs.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 27, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that Sheets makes a lot of sense for the A's actually...
They have a ton A, A-, B+ starting pitchers in the high minors. If I’m Beane I’d rather roll the dice with what I have and spend more money upgrading my offense than tying up money in my pitching staff where I have a ton of good to great arms in the pipeline. It would be like the Cardinals signing Adam Dunn to play outfield.
I still think that Dunn makes a lot of sense for the A’s, albeit less so now that they have Giambi.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Kris Benson report
I kept reading that Kris Benson report and something kept bugging me (besides that the Cardinals were mentioned anywhere near it) and then it finally hit me:
Agent Gregg Clifton said the throwing session “went well, and he showed teams that he’s ahead of schedule in getting ready for the ’09 season.”
Agent Gregg Clifton, you ask? This is the same man that said countless times that Mark Mulder would be ready for Opening Day.
If the Cardinals waste a dime on Kris Benson and don’t sign Ben Sheets, I’m punching the nearest puppy I can find right in the…ok, I can’t hurt that little guy. Look how cute he is.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 26, 2009 11:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
fool me once, shame on,,,,shame on you. Fool me,,,, you can't get fooled again.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 27, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brad Thompson puppy kicker
Hardcore Legend puppy ______ Puncher
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Jan 27, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention it's his agent
of course the throwing session “went well.”
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 27, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kind of sort of unrelated
but today’s article on Lohse looks pretty good: http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090127&content_id=3775140&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl.
Even if he is way overpaid, at least he wants to play here. That’s always encouraging.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jan 27, 2009 2:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
chase wright just got dumped by the NYY.
had a terrible bring up in 2007 where he gave up four homers to the red sox, so he was a lost cause in NY. he has dismal projections for this year, though I imagine they’re affected by his bad stint in 2007. He’s got really good AAA numbers, though. looks like a decent pickup at league min for a team w/o a lot of starting prospects.
by tom s. on Jan 27, 2009 4:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I was just getting ready to ask about him.
Can’t see how it would hurt to give him a look, and he’s left-handed, right?
by STLRegalia on Jan 27, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Decent minor league numbers
FIP is good but the 1.56 K/BB and the 3.24 BB/9 in 16 starts at AA are a bit worrisome. If he can’t strike out more hitters per 9 innings than he walks at AA, how effective is he really going to be in the big leagues?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The more I look
The more I hate his peripherals…
He doesn’t miss bats and he walks a ton of guys. The Cardinals probably have 3 or 4 guys who are better than he is in the AAA right now. He could be a LOOGY candidate I guess, but I don’t know what his splits are.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 27, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sign him up
let him compete with Royce Ring for AAA Loogy-in-waiting
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
by _pistol_ on Jan 28, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My Dream Signings for the rest of this Offseason
Sign Ben Sheets to 2/16 and 5 million worth of incentives per year.
Sign Mark Mulder(No, I’m serious) to a minimum salary for LHP depth to relieve or be a LOOGY.
I doubt most people would agree with my dream is, but I think that if Mulder doesn’t have to undertake the toll of starting all year(Or pitching less than 16 pitches a year it seems), he won’t get injured and will be useful, and if we desperate, he can spot-start for injuries in rare cases(If he is doing well at the point of injury).
by Taskmaster on Jan 27, 2009 11:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Mark Mulder should play for free since we paid him to sit at home for 2 years
*cough Ben Sheets *cough Sheets
I must be getting a Sheets cold.
by bearcatcardfan on Jan 28, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
he didn't sit at home for two season, and it's not his faut he was hurt
if you were hurt on the job, then came back & could not do your job like you used to, but your company still paid you for two years while you tried to get back what you once had, should you then work for that company for free because you could not do what you used to be able to do? i think not.
i also think it’s in everyone’s best interest, Marky Mark’s, the Cards & us fans, if he goes & tries to get back what he’s lost elsewhere.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 28, 2009 1:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
I didn’t think about it like that but even workman’s comp isn’t 100% of your salary. I could be wrong about that but when my uncle got hurt he didn’t get his whole salary for when he was off.
*cough Ben Sheets *cough Sheets
I must be getting a Sheets cold.
by bearcatcardfan on Jan 28, 2009 1:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
that’s how it works for MLB players. They get their full salary.
BEN F*&*ING SHEETS!
by spants on Jan 28, 2009 2:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They miss their incentives so i guess thats like not getting your full paycheck
so i guess its comperable but with massively different payscales
*cough Ben Sheets *cough Sheets
I must be getting a Sheets cold.
by bearcatcardfan on Jan 28, 2009 2:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you make a base
salary with a chance to bonus once or twice a year, and you have to use workman’s comp, you get a % of a base salary and you probably won’t bonus.
If you’re an MLB player who gets injured, and you aren’t on a seriously incentive-laden deal, you get all of your base salary and none of your bonuses.
BEN F*&*ING SHEETS!
by spants on Jan 28, 2009 2:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you .
Also, the Cardinals knew he was injured when they gave him that contract. They took a risk that he could heal and rehab back to his old self; they were wrong.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 28, 2009 6:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and i think
they are avoiding that mistake with sheets. especially since there is a number 19 pick on the line.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Jan 28, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heilman to cubbies
per mlbtraderumors..cedno seems to be the big name for cubs going to M’s
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Jan 28, 2009 11:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
or rich hill
*cough Ben Sheets *cough Sheets
I must be getting a Sheets cold.
by bearcatcardfan on Jan 28, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it.
cubs already have, like, 35 “average” middle relievers, and none of them have options.
I guess if Cedeno/hill is all he cost, it’s no big deal, but this doesn’t improve the Cubs.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 28, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like Garland is off the market
He’s going to sign w/ D-Backs for $6-8 MM according to mlbtraderumors. Thank God. At least we know he won’t be wearing the Birds on the Bat this year.
Sign Ben Sheets!
by bmorgan on Jan 28, 2009 12:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Why didn't they just resign
Randy Johnson?
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 28, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good question
maybe b/c Garland is more durable? That is the only thing he has over the Unit. His effectiveness as a pitcher sure doesn’t do it.
Sign Ben Sheets!
by bmorgan on Jan 28, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
would Johnson have been more expensive?
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 28, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nope
Johnson would have taken a 50% pay cut just to stay with Arizona, I think his contract last year was about 15 million? And they still didn’t take him. Amazing
by Taskmaster on Jan 28, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Position switch for Anderson?
This didn’t seem like a topic worthy of it’s own fanpost, so I’ll just ponder it here instead. Anyway, to start – I remember seeing here on VEB a chart of fielding positions (left being the hardest, and right being the easiest), and everything I’ve googled seems to be people’s own opinions as opposed to an “official” answer. At any rate, Catcher was the furthest left, deeming it the most difficult position to play. This got me thinking…
Anderson is blocked at catcher – Yadi isn’t going anywhere for what will surely be a long while. This makes him one of our top trade baits – or does it? Surely, following the chart (that I can no longer find), if he can play the most demanding of positions, what’s stopping him from learning an easier one? We could use some offense at 2nd base… would this be an option? For some comparisons… Dale Murphy moved from C to CF and then won 2 MVPs, Joe Torre moved from C to 3B and then won an MVP, and then there’s this guy.
At any rate… I just wondered what others thought. I think it could work, and we could get some use out of a top 10 prospect. It’d save having to buy one next offseason, once the Year of the Kennedy is over.
Or on the other hand, I could have become completely crazy from being snowed in (which is entirely possible).
by A1R3Z on Jan 28, 2009 7:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Craig Biggio was a former catcher also
And he became a solid fielder at at 2B and obviously a potential hall of famer. He is 5 foot 11, 185 pounds. Anderson is 6 foot 1, 200 pounds, so it wouldn’t be out of the question for him to play second.
One thing you have to keep in mind is the risk vs. reward of a positional switch. Anderson as a catcher, with some improvement in the power department, could be an excellent trade bait. If he is moved to second, it will likely hold him back a couple of and take away from his trade value. If we really are planning on keeping him around then a switch to second makes sense, if not then we should just try and fatten him up for other teams and the best way to do that would be to keep him at catcher.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 28, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Catchers with great offensive capabilities are rare
Anderson projects to be a solid hitter. This is the most demanding position in baseball. We don’t know if Molina gets injured beyond recovery, or has to miss significant time for a catcher-related injury. Having Anderson around, means we have a good trade chip and a potential solid call-up if Yadi gets hurt and we don’t want to rely on Jason LaRue for part of the season. I say he’s fine as he is. Let’s see if he makes it in the Majors as a catcher, before someone decides to move him around.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...Oh yeah, and by the way....BEN SHEETS!!!!!
by RunninRedbird on Jan 28, 2009 8:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah i heard this too
but both MO & Luhnow shot it down. they say give him one or two more season & see where he is before they make the move.
a bunch of scouts have told the Cards he should move to 2nd. this was even back in 06, but the Cards won’t listen. i don’t know who’s right on this one. i really don’t.
BEN MOTHERHUSHYOURMOUTH SHEETS
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 28, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The key point that you seem to be missing here...
…is that all of the players that you mention were all moved because they were great offensive players and needed to play every day, which they couldn’t do as catchers. They were all pretty good athletes as well, which allowed them to make the switch, when other guys, like Mike Piazza, were not capable of playing in outfield or at third base. Murphy was a piss poor defensive catcher with a good enough bat to move to the outfield, Torre was a solid catcher and a better third baseman who’s career was extended by making the move, and Biggio moved so he could play every day and lead off while having a chance to play past age 35. He’s the most comparable of this group, but he was a much better hitter than Anderson projects to be.
What you’re talking about is taking a guy who projects to be a solid major league hitter (i.e. not an All-Star caliber player) and moving him positions for the good of the club, not necessarily for the good of the player. I don’t think that this is a wise decision. Biggio is the only catcher ever to move to second base and stick there, and we’re talking about a HOF player who was very speedy for most of his career. I don’t think Anderson profiles into being that type of player, and he’s also a very good defensive catcher, so it would make more sense to leave him there in case of a devastating injury to Yadi (anyone remember the game against Philly last year and that play at the plate?) or as a top trade chip.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 28, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yadi's comp at B-R
is BJ Surhoff. He converted from catcher to 3B to OF around age 28. He hit pretty well for his career. Wouldn’t that be a sight with Raz in center, Jones in Left and Molina in right in 2011.
by ubeddie on Jan 28, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just seeing Yadi in the outfield trying to run down a fly ball
makes me cringe……..
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 29, 2009 9:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough...
I’ll take that. I realized when I typed it out that in my effort to find successful stories of catchers switching to another position, I’d basically chosen the cream of the crop to compare Anderson to. And I’d be the first to agree that he needs some more seasoning in the minors.
But I think that because he projects to be a solid major league hitter, that’s not something to just cough at. Especially if the move is for the good of the club. I guess I could see it as, he reaches the point where he puts it all together, and then says “Hey coach (or whoever), how can I break into the big leagues?” and the response being “well, if you were a second baseman, you’d be there already.” Or something to that effect. (Sure, the argument works better for a pitcher choosing b/w starting and relieving, but hey… ). In this sense, what’s good for the goose could also be good for the gander – if he can make the switch, it’s great for the Cards, because they’ve got a solidly offensive 2nd baseman, and it’s great for Anderson because he realizes his dream of playing in the majors.
That said, if he puts it all together next year in Memphis at catcher we’d have a great option in case of a potential Yadi injury, and we’d hold the upper hand in trading him.
I guess in the end, it’s just a good problem to have.
by A1R3Z on Jan 28, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that he projects as as "solidly offensive second baseman" though
I think he projects as a catcher with plus offense, but once your move him to second base he has to hit a bit better to keep up with the joneses at that position. His MLE actually has him hitting worse than Kennedy’s projection for next season and he probably wouldn’t be a 1.5 WAR player with just his glove like Adam is. I’m simply not sold that this would be the best for either the club OR the player in this particular instance.
If Anderson continues to hit, he will get a shot at the majors as a catcher before too long I would guess. He’s only 22 years old, so I don’t think that he’s a guy we should be looking at moving positions just yet.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 29, 2009 9:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yadi gets too much love
I like him, but he has never had 500 PAs and his career season last year made him a more or less league average hitting catcher. He was slightly better than Kurt Suzuki and not quite as good as Dionner Navarro. The defense is very good, but I think that is generally overvalued. Anderson needs to stay at catcher and get the opportunity to play for the BoB in 2010. If he can hit at the MLB level it would be great to have two real MLB catchers on the roster, especially one who can hit RHPs. Yadi’s career OPS vs. RHPs is .646 and he hits into tons of double plays against them.
Having Anderson on the roster in 2010 getting 200-300 PAs would make the Cardinals a better team. After he proves he can hit big league pitching he will have very good trade value at a minimum.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 29, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yadi's value is in his defense
Looking at the catcher caught stealing runs Molina career averages about 10 runs per 1800, while a heavy hitting catcher like McCann is -3. That 13 run difference makes the gap a little narrower between the two players.
vivaelbensheets
by vivaelpujols on Jan 29, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
You’re undervaluing his defense. Look at the number of SB attempts against the Cardinals the last couple of years. They’re an entire factor lower than the rest of the league — there’s a reason for that.
Yadi was brought up to the big league level very early in his development, and probably should have had a little more seasoning in the minors before being thrust into the job at the major league level. What we’ve seen is a lot of learning on the job, and I think we saw what he’s capable of at the plate at time last year. He’s never going to OPS above .800 for a season, but with his defense he doesn’t have to.
I don’t think you can blame him entirely for not getting to 500 PA’s. LaRussa gives him every 5th day off — he can’t do much to change that. He was 10th out of 19 qualifying catchers (400 PA’s or more) in games played last season and that’s with 2 stints in the DL and recovering from a concussion. His injuries are usually of the freak variety as well, so he definitely can improve this with one healthy year. He’s never going to be a slugger, but he’s shown better skill at getting on base the last couple of years, so it’s possible that he could be a .770 OPS or better catcher, which would put him in the top third in the MLB. Couple that with this defense and he becomes a pretty valuable player.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 29, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So what would the math be if
teams attempted to steal more and succeeded at the same (63.6%) rate? Over fifty attempts that would be an additional 32 steals and 18 guys thrown out. I’ll take that. Sounds like if they ran more it would be better for the Cardinals, not worse. I don’t see how you can give extra credit to a guy because he prevents the other team from taking actions that would decrease their odds of winning the game.
Over in the fanposts there is a discussion of a fangraphs article about valuing a catcher’s defense with respect to the running game. Even if you use their numbers for RAA, Yadi is still the 11th best catcher in MLB – about the same as Dionner Navarro and Chris Snyder.
The offensive catchers like Maurer, Soto, McCann, and Martin are still the top guys. I would much rather have the best hitting catcher who was a middle of the pack defender than the best fielding catcher who is a middle of the pack hitter.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 29, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My take on Yadi
is that people are stealing off the pitchers. Of course there is no real way to prove this but all of the info I dug up doesn’t seem to relate to anything in particular. The completely random people who ran on Yadi tells me that it isn’t running on Yadi, its running on the pitcher. It’s like how Pujols gets a few steals every year just by being smart and picking on the pitchers who aren’t paying attention. There is an obvious reason for why so few people run on Yadi, they are scared to. Finally, the average person who was successful against Yadi was an above average base stealer (although not by too much). Again, there is no way to actually prove this so I dunno, it’s just my opinion. I do, however, feel that catchers defense is slightly overrated, but damn it’s neat to watch him pick people off, and damn it sucks to watch the back end of our lineup have to put 3 singles in a row up to score a run.
by ajo080s on Jan 30, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently the Cubs are looking to rid themselves
of Rich Hill. Here is the link. Mlbtraderumors thinks their trade partner is a small-market team, including the Cardinals neighbors to the west.
Hill has had some bad control problems, but he was a damn fine pitcher as recently as 2007. While the possibility of making a trade w/ the Cubs is next to none, I wouldn’t mind having Hill on the roster if it didn’t cost us too much. And I can’t see them getting a whole lot for him, considering the deals they just made for Olson and Heilman.
Sign Ben Sheets!
by bmorgan on Jan 29, 2009 9:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I would like to see Hill
He has a filthy curveball and Dunc could probably help him get his control under control. If not, he is the next Rick Ankiel, who can’t hit.
vivaelbensheets
by vivaelpujols on Jan 29, 2009 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just so no to Rich Hill
The kid has completely lost it — velocity is down, control is gone, and that filthy curveball that he used to have isn’t filthy anymore. I really wish there was pitch f/x for the minor leagues so I could show you how plaintively horrible his starts were at Iowa last year. Dude walked the bases loaded in the first inning in one of his starts and didn’t top 86 on the gun for that whole inning.
I wouldn’t want to give up a bag of baseballs for him right now because he’ll be taking a roster spot from someone who deserves it at AAA and he’s got only one option left and will be a free agent with 2 more seasons in the big leagues. Even if he did make it all the way back, we’d probably only have him for one good season and then he’d be a free agent. It’s just not a good gamble.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 29, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he's out of options, isn't he?
I haven’t heard this anywhere but looking at his history I can’t see how he’d have one left. he was sent down in ’05, ’06 and ’08.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
by SleepyCA on Jan 29, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought he was sent down for injury rehab one of those times
Which would leave him with one option left. I could be wrong though.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 29, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
per mlbtraderumors
“the Cubs are weighing offers for lefty Rich Hill, who is out of options.”
Sign Ben Sheets!
by bmorgan on Jan 29, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I stand corrected
But he’s still not worth the risk…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 29, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If he doesn't cost anything of real value
Then it is a worthy gamble. Lowered velocity and control points to an injury which is fixable. IDK, I still like Hill.
vivaelbensheets
by vivaelpujols on Jan 29, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We have
Mortenson, Todd, Boggs, Walters, and Ottavino who are younger, have options, and have 6 full years of cost control that will be looking to start the season at AAA. Not to mention that Lance Lynn and Deryk Hooker could be fast movers within the minor league system like Todd was last year. So we’re going to trade a player for a 28 year old reclamation project who showed nothing to prove he’s like his old self last season and is out of options? It’s just a really, really bad gamble. If we could pick him up off of waivers and he had an option left where we could try him out at the big league level to see what he had, then I could see it. Other than that, why would we trade anyone for a pitcher that looks like he might be finished?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 29, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He had a bad year
Before that he was great. He was obviously injured this year. How would it hurt to give him a shot in ST. At the very worst he could be a LOOGY.
vivaelbensheets
by vivaelpujols on Jan 29, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We should trade for a LOOGY?
We’ve got four and there are still two good ones on the market we could have without giving up a player. He’s either a starter or he isn’t — trading for him as a reliever doesn’t make much sense at all.
Obviously injured? Nobody could figure out what was wrong with him. So nothing has been fixed unless rest is all that was called for. Like I said, if he’s released and we could get him as a non-roster invitee I might consider it. But it makes no sense to trade for him.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jan 29, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he meant that
If he does not work out as a SP, he could be used as a LOOGY. It’s not our intention for him to become a LOOGY, but just in case he discovers his mojo and comes back to 2007 form.
by Taskmaster on Jan 29, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Albert Pujols encouraged TLR to call Manny and sign him...
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/wires/01/29/2010.ap.bbn.cardinals.pujols.0256/
"I speak with Manny every three days and he tells me, `Man, no one wants to sign me,’ Pujols said Thursday during a news conference. "I’m not an agent or general manager, but I can’t understand how Manny has not signed.’’
Pujols passed along Ramirez’s telephone number to St. Louis manager Tony La Russa.
“Maybe St. Louis doesn’t have the money to sign him, but he could give them a discount because St. Louis is a great city that supports its players,’’ Pujols said.”
No, it won’t happen. yes it’s a pipe dream, and interesting fodder at most for the slow baseball times. But, I thought no harm in putting it in here. Maybe at the very least, it indicates Pujols’ willingness to see past bottom dollars and give STL a “discount” come contract time in 2011….
Wishful thinking???
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Jan 29, 2009 5:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This should just about solve our problems
We do seem to be one outfielder away from a run at the division.
by mojowo11 on Jan 29, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs