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Now Pinch Hitting... B. Bonds?

I almost feel guilty typing that subject line.  But after a recent story on ESPN, I couldn't help but wonder.  If it were under VERY controlled circumstances, would bringing Barry Bonds to St. Louis now make sense?

Before you begin throwing much-deserved rocks at me, consider the following arguments:
- He would help raise attendance in a potentially sluggish economy
- He could be used exclusively as a pinch hitter
- He has (historically) insane statistics.  His OPS is career-wise higher than Alberts
- He REALLY wants to play, and thus could come very cheap with the right offer
- He gives Tony that (occasional) big bat to sit behind Albert, doesn't he?

Imagine the following scenario.  John Mozeliak and Tony Larussa contact Barry and express their interest.  Barry gets a one-year, $3M contract.  He only pinch-hits (and fields in a dire emergency).  He undergoes regular drug testing and doesn't raise a peep in legal circles.  And he doesn't bring ANY of his entourage to games.

Albert welcomes him to the team and lays down the riot act as well.  Keep your nose clean, you're living on borrowed time, welcome to the club, etc. 

Go ahead.  Tell me I'm insane.  Tell me Bonds is washed up.  Tell me he would be a distraction.  But consider this.  Barry's CAREER OPS was 1.051.  In his last season (2007) he drew 132 walks, clobbered 28 home runs, and managed to terrify the opposition.  Isn't that worth a small risk?  At the very least, no one would accuse the Cardinals of playing the offseason too conservatively...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3804098

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Needs to Be A DH

No National League team should take Bonds. Just being a pinch-hitter is not enough to justify a roster spot with a NL team. He could do some damage as a DH in the junior circuit, if he can still jog 90 feet at a time.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jan 2, 2009 9:25 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

He's a specialist

I understand what you’re saying, but think of Bonds as a pinch-hitting specialist, like a ROOGY or a LOOGY. Consider a few of the game’s biggest DHs:

- Ortiz (416 AB, $13M)
- Thome (503 AB, $15.6M)
- Sheffield (418 AB, $13.3M)

If you pay Barry $3M for 130 AB, he is a bargain compared to the first three guys on that list. Yes, the Cards lose a viable fielder, but they could make this up in other areas. Again, I don’t know if this is a great idea, but maybe he is at least worth a look in Spring Training?…

by JWO on Jan 2, 2009 9:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Another Rusty Staub?

In Staub’s later years with the Mets, he was primarily a pinch-hitter.. The Mets pinch-ran for him, when he got on base. I can’t see Bonds being that type of player.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jan 2, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If he could have a good year as a pinch hitter

and not bitch whenever he gets pinch ran for, than he could possibly ink a major league deal the next season.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i threw up in a KMart & a Sears once

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 2, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

heh

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 2, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just for fairness' sake:

Ankiel’s big walk-off hit against Kerry Wood that I got to see at Busch this year was one of my favorite Cardinal game-enders of all time, and was just insanely clutch, especially considering KW hadn’t blown a save up to that point.

by wyld stallyns on Jan 5, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Something tells me

That Santa didn’t leave Az the mythical mystical magical Equidae he was wishing for under the tree this year. I hate to see your suffer, so I’m getting you this.

As for the rest of your list, some of them more likely to happen before we sign Bonds. Honestly, how does he hurt his hip during the season where HE NEVER PLAYED A GAME? What’s next, getting turf toe while sitting on the bench?

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Jan 2, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I rec'd you

That was hilarious. What is with this obsession with mythical creatures on this particular post though? I believe this is a pegacorn, right?

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 2, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I almost forgot

You care about things that remind you of yourself. Just so you know, the horn isn’t an antenna.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Jan 2, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

this gets rec'd, thats a winner

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Jan 3, 2009 2:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Does their firebreathing...

…interfere with the metals your body is constructed from?

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 4, 2009 5:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

AZ

I must say, “Excuse me while I stand and applaud.”

by Edbird on Jan 2, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Time to shoot some holes in this argument....again
-He would help raise attendance in a potentially sluggish economy
- He could be used exclusively as a pinch hitter
- He has (historically) insane statistics. His OPS is career-wise higher than Alberts
- He REALLY wants to play, and thus could come very cheap with the right offer
- He gives Tony that (occasional) big bat to sit behind Albert, doesn’t he?
  • He would help attendance? I guess if you count all the people showing up to boo him and shower the field with syringes. The Cardinals have never had a problem selling tickets and I highly doubt a player that is as hated as Barry will help them sell any more.
  • So, when do you tell Barry he’s strictly a pinch hitter? If you tell him before he signs he’d yell a bunch of expletives and tell you to stop wasting his time. If you tell him after he signs he’d yell a bunch of expletives and then sulk in the clubhouse all year. This is a man that didn’t want to go to the American League because he couldn’t play defense…and you think he’ll accept not playing every day? Please…
  • His career OPS is higher than Albert’s, true. He’ll turn 45 next season. True. Mark McGwire has a pretty good OPS too, and he’s only 10 months older than Barry, maybe we should sign him to be the right handed pinch hitter? That way we tie up two useful roster spots with aging superstars who may or may not still be able to hit a baseball effectively.

I keep hearing that he really wants to play — then he has hip surgery that keeps him out of spring training. I’m supposed to believe that he couldn’t have had that surgery in October and been ready for Spring Training? Sorry, I have a tough time with that. He’s thumbing his nose at the league, again. He’s avoiding being a non-roster invitee by saying he won’t be ready by ST, basically forcing a team to sign him for the whole season before they even know what they’re getting. Vintage Barry Bonds behavior.

whiny voice “I really want to play, but I’m injured, 43 years old, and, oh by the way, I can’t play in spring training because my hip won’t be ready to go. So sign me — I’ll play for free even though I might not be able to hit my way out of a wet paper bag and you won’t know this until the regular season because I won’t be ready until opening day” /end whiny voice

I’m sorry, but you bring nothing to the table Barry. So stick it.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 2, 2009 10:50 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I’ll play for free even though I might not be able to hit my way out of a wet paper bag

Barry Bonds’ last season was in 2007, age 41-42, and he had an OPS+ of 170. Even a dramatic dropoff by most people’s standards would still rate to leave him above league and DH average production. I don’t think he should be a dedicated pinch hitter, though.

by astrostl on Jan 2, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

That was two years and two surgeries (knee, hip) ago that he put up those numbers. Let’s put it this way: In 1999, Mark McGwire hit 65 homers. By 2001 he was all but finished as a big leaguer and he retired after being banged up that whole season. At age 37. Which is 7 years younger than Bonds will be in July of 2009. Players tend to fall off pretty quickly in the late stages of their careers, and Bonds wouldn’t be any different. Sure, Mac hit 29 homers in 2001 in only 299 AB’s with an .808 OPS in 2001, but Barry would have to be better than that to be worth signing when you have plus defensive players like Ankiel, Ludwick, Schumaker, and Rasmus in the outfield already. Barry would probably be a -10 defensive player at best, and could be much worse than that, and you don’t know how his bat is going to be either.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 2, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Some people bounce back or even improve after surgery, and I’d expect a guy of his physical caliber to have better percentages for that. But ultimately I think even a hurting, old, non-doping Bonds might still hit with authority. I’m not suggesting that the Cardinals sign him, or that anyone sign him as a dedicated pinch hitter. I think it’s crazy that nobody tried him last year, though, and I’ll probably feel the same about 2009 even without the benefit of spring training invites. A team can still do live batting practice with real pitchers against him, though.

by astrostl on Jan 2, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Key quote there
But ultimately I think even a hurting, old, non-doping Bonds might still hit with authority.

Might being the key word. I remember a whole bunch of people being upset that the team made Juan Gonzalez a non-roster invitee last season when he wasn’t guaranteed a contract or anything else. Now some of these people want to sign Barry for a whole season before we know whether he can even swing a bat “with authority”.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 3, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Barry wasn't that bad defensively

he was about -4, only a little worse than Manny.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 2, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Again...

that was two years and two leg surgeries ago. If you think that he’s going to run just as well now as he did then then you’re being very optimistic on how a 43 year old guy whose been beating on his joints for 25 years of college and pro baseball is going to recover. Barry hasn’t played more than 130 games in any of the past four years,

A little worse than Manny? Well if that’s the case, then I’d rather have Manny, who put up a 1.000+ OPS just last season, will get 600 AB’s next season, is better defensively, and is less of a clubhouse distraction than Barry is.

People are worried about Manny being a clubhouse problem and they want to sign BARRY?!?! That makes no sense — at least Manny has shown he can still hit and is 7 years younger.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 3, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Manny costs…calculating…about 4678362487632478632784678x more than Barry Bonds.

As for the clubhouse, I’ll defer to Tiger manager Jim Leyland :)

All that bullshit has been media bullshit for years — great chemistry, great clubhouse. That’s the biggest bunch of bullshit in the history of sports. Every time somebody wants to talk about great chemistry, fuck the chemistry in the clubhouse. I’m interested in winning games, period. I don’t know who came up with it, but the worst word ever used now is chemistry. That’s something you take in school. That’s a class you take. If he gets people out, he’ll be fun in the clubhouse. If we win games, I’ll be fun in the clubhouse. If we don’t, I won’t be fun in the clubhouse, either.

by astrostl on Jan 3, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Leyland a little more after reading that

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 3, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How do you know this?
Manny costs…calculating…about 4678362487632478632784678x more than Barry Bonds.

You’re assuming that Barry would agree to play for peanuts — until I see him sign a contract I’m pretty pessimistic that what he says publicly is gospel.

As far as the Leyland quote, I’d really like to ask Jim Leyland how much of the game he thinks is mental. I’d venture he’d say around 90% or so. If 90% of the game is mental and you have a clubhouse that prevents players from being mentally ready to play because of distractions caused by players in that clubhouse, then I’d venture to say that somewhere down the line that’s going to effect “winning games”. I think that this is one thing that Leyland and LaRussa sometimes don’t understand because they’ve always been such good stewards of different attitudes and personalities in their clubhouses. The thing is, both have shown that they don’t understand it at times because of comments like the one above, and LaRussa’s public admonishment of players like Rolen.

I have a hard time believing that Jim Leyland would rather have a team of good players who hate each other than a team of good players who like each other and enjoy being in the clubhouse every day.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 3, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You’re assuming that Barry would agree to play for peanuts — until I see him sign a contract I’m pretty pessimistic that what he says publicly is gospel.

New York Times, July 2008: “Borris [Bonds’ agent] said he had offered Bonds to teams for the league minimum salary”. Do you think those sources are uncredible, or that the price will go UP a year after nobody took him up on the offer?

I’d really like to ask Jim Leyland how much of the game he thinks is mental. I’d venture he’d say around 90% or so.

Why would you venture that number?

by astrostl on Jan 3, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Two things

Borris makes that claim in the NY Times because it helps Bonds’ case of “collusion”, nothing more. You’re telling me that a guy who wouldn’t play for less than $16M for the only team and fanbase that would have him all of the sudden has a change of heart and will play for anything? I don’t buy it, and nothing his representative says will convince me. I don’t see any GM’s coming out and stating that they were offered Barry’s services for league minimum. It’s a bogus claim until someone actually signs him or he plays for an independent league team for that kind of money. It isn’t about baseball, it’s about Barry, AS ALWAYS.

Because nearly all managers and baseball people who have been quoted over the years about the subject end up being somewhere between 75% and 90% on those numbers. Leyland is a smart baseball man so I’m just making that assumption.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 4, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Borris makes that claim in the NY Times because it helps Bonds’ case of "collusion", nothing more.

That is an assertion.

I don’t see any GM’s coming out and stating that they were offered Barry’s services for league minimum.

That does not mean that it didn’t happen. Furthermore I think any GM worth his salt, if interested in a league-minimum 2007 Bonds, would have called his agent’s “bluff” and went public saying, “where do I sign to get this deal?”

Because nearly all managers and baseball people who have been quoted over the years about the subject end up being somewhere between 75% and 90% on those numbers.

That is another assertion. Do you have a source for these citations? I’d love to see a comprehensive collection of opinion from “nearly all managers and baseball people.”

by astrostl on Jan 4, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry...I don't have time to look up four thousand f***ing quotes for you

Where have you backed up any of what you’re saying? Why is that I have to have “unsubstantiated proof” of everything but you can just say that “signing him is great because he’s a 170 OPS+ player” even though you have no way of proving that to be true?

My assertions make just as much sense as your blind faith in all things Barry Bonds.

I don’t want the whiny pissant on my ballclub, period. I don’t think he gives you a better chance to win at this stage in his career and I have a lot of doubts as to whether any of his public posturing regarding salary is true. I’m done having this argument with you because it’s obvious your a fan of his. I am not, never have been, and never will be. I’d just as soon burn up $500,000 in a bon-fire for the fans than give it to Barry Bonds. Happy?!?!?!?!?!?!!?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 4, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Where haven’t I backed up what I’ve said? I use his public stats for performance reference, quoted his agent via the New York Times for salary, and declare my opinions as opinions.

I didn’t say that he is a 170 OPS+ player, I said he was in his last season (2007). Just using the past, especially recent past, as indication of future potential. Age is a factor too, but so is price.

I’m a fan of baseball analysis, not Barry Bonds, and I think your emotions are seriously clouding your judgement.

by astrostl on Jan 4, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So you back up what you're saying with numbers from 18 months ago and a quote from his agent

Who cares if it’s in the New York Times. They also quoted people that said that Iraq had WMD’s, that Lehman Brothers was in great financial shape, and that the economy wasn’t in a recession as recent as last August — all things that were generally untrue.

I don’t have any faith in his agent’s quote until I see him sign a contract like that on paper or I’m negotiating with him directly. Until then it’s complete and utter hearsay.

I’ve used plenty of “public stats” to back up my assertion that he probably isn’t they player that he once was. I compared him to other veteran guys with injuries late in their careers that never recovered. Players like McGwire fell off the shelf in less than 18 months, and had put up similar numbers to Barry’s in the 4 seasons previous to that happening. Why risk enraging your fanbase by signing a guy who may not be helpful at all?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 5, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You say he's a whiner

But he’s the one that’s desperate. No one is beating a path to his door, at the moment. If he wants to be difficult, let him sit out another year and get that much closer to his Social Security checks.

That’s why I suggested so many conditions. If he really wants to play, he shows up at Spring Training, agrees to any special conditions a team offers, proves he is drug-free, smiles for the cameras, shows he still has mad skills, and THEN the Cardinals make the call.

A motivated Barry Bonds, even at 45 years old, could be very dangerous.

by JWO on Jan 2, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He can't show up to spring training...

His doctor states that his hip won’t be ready until just before opening day. He’s basically saying that if he’s getting a contract it’s not going to be like the one we gave Juan Gonzalez last season, it’ll be for the full year because he won’t be in spring training. No team should do that.

He IS a whiner. He becomes more whiny when teams show that they don’t want him. God forbid he could just retire and go away, but we keep having to hear about how much he still wants to play so the drama continues. I, for one, am tired of the antics.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 2, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If what you're saying is true

Actually, the article says Barry and his doctor aren’t commenting about when he would be ready. Its the newspaper that makes the claim. But your point is a good one. I wouldn’t mind a healthy Barry showing up in Florida, hammering fly balls over the fence. But I wouldn’t give a 45-year-old ball player a cent before seeing him in workouts.

by JWO on Jan 2, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wasn’t Juan Gone just a non-roster invite for 2008? I didn’t know that a contract or even money was involved. I remembered him actually playing in ST before getting injured too, which MLB.com confirms (26 at-bats). Not splitting hairs here, really just curious about whether NRIs have contracts.

by astrostl on Jan 2, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They don't require contracts

It’s the same thing that Garth Brooks got to come to spring training for the Padres 10 years ago or so. Juan Gone was a non-roster invitee, but I feel like Barry is saying that he won’t be able to do that because his hip won’t be ready, which is sort of like saying “sign me for a full year before you know whether I’m going to be worth a shit”.

Also, doesn’t his trial for perjury start this year? How do you know that he won’t be in jail at some point next season, or at least having to fly cross country constantly to appear in court? There’s just too many risks for a very small amount of upside. I’d rather sign a bunch of different left handed hitting outfielders (Dunn, Bradley, etc.) before I offer Bonds anything.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 3, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A full year of Barry Bonds cost the LEAGUE MINIMUM last year, so I presume his price has not gone up after not being taken up by anyone. That’s as low as things can legally go, and I think he also offered to donate the money to charity so it wouldn’t even reach him.

Dunn, Bradley, Ramirez all cost real money and almost certainly multiple years.

Trial? Maybe. Jail? Maybe. “very small amount of upside” is crazy talk, though.

by astrostl on Jan 3, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"very small amount of upside" is crazy talk, though.

Why is that crazy talk? I just don’t understand how that is the case. I don’t honestly understand why people think that Bonds will just show up and put up a .900 OPS after 18 months of sitting on his ass. Age catches up with everyone. Look at the last couple of seasons played by Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial, Ken Griffey Jr., and Larry Walker. Keep in mind that all those guys are younger or retired younger than Barry is right now, and never had 18 months sitting on their rear ends either.

Furthermore, we have plenty of productive outfielders already in the system that cost the exact same amount, play every day, and don’t need defensive replacements after the 6th inning. Skip Schumaker had a .765 OPS last season and costs the league minimum. Colby Rasmus projects to put up at least that as a rookie and costs the league minimum. Joe Mather could also put up a .765 OPS and cost the league minimum. Much of Barry Bonds’ worth is that pitchers have been afraid to throw him a strike. What happens when he isn’t able to hit every strike he sees out of the ballpark? His OBP goes down, his SLG goes down, and his average his last couple of full seasons was already .30 points lower than his career mark. He’ll end up being a similar player to those guys above, with no upside, no future, and be taking up a roster spot from some young player who could help the ballclub for the next 5-6 years. If you believe in player development, why would you want to sign a 43 year old pain in the tookus who may not even be able to help your ballclub when you have plenty of young guys who have something to prove?

I don’t advocate signing any of those other players, or any outfielder at all. The team needs a starter and a second baseman before filling those needs. But I’d much rather sign Dunn or Bradley to a deal before bothering to take a risk on Barry Bonds.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 3, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why is that crazy talk?

It’s the lowest amount of financial risk that is legally allowed and offers a potentially great reward. Calling that a “very small amount of upside” is crazy talk. This isn’t a one in a million shot, it’s 170 OPS+ in 2006 Barry Bonds.

Furthermore, we have plenty of productive outfielders already in the system that cost the exact same amount, play every day, and don’t need defensive replacements after the 6th inning.

You’re not looking at the big picture. Not playing every day is sub-optimal. Requiring a defensive replacement is sub-optimal. Ugly. Downsides can can be overcome by upsides, such as the potential for extremely powerful offense. If a player gives back more than they take away, however they do it that is a net positive.

As for “we,” I’m not necessarily suggesting that the Cardinals go after him. I think it’s batshit insane that at an AL team didn’t try last year though.

Skip Schumaker had a .765 OPS last season and costs the league minimum. Colby Rasmus projects to put up at least that as a rookie and costs the league minimum. Joe Mather could also put up a .765 OPS and cost the league minimum.

Effective players cost the minimum while under team control, not as free agents.

Much of Barry Bonds’ worth is that pitchers have been afraid to throw him a strike.

That is unsubstantiated opinion.

The team needs a starter and a second baseman before filling those needs. But I’d much rather sign Dunn or Bradley to a deal before bothering to take a risk on Barry Bonds.

We have a decent second baseman, IMO. For the Cardinals in particular I would focus on starting pitching, period. But if we were to do anything in the outfield I’d MUCH rather take a one year flier on Bonds for the minimum before giving Dunn or Bradley multiple years and tens of millions of dollars.

by astrostl on Jan 3, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Effective players cost the minimum while under team control, not as free agents.

All of they players I mentioned will cost league minimum next season, which is the only season that we’re talking about if we’re talking about signing Bonds. Whether they are under team control or free agents is irrelevant in that context.

That is unsubstantiated opinion.

It’s no more unsubstantiated than saying that a 43 year old former superstar will be any better than other outfielders that we currently have. You have no idea how good he can be until you actually see him play. Nobody has seen him play in the last 18 months. As far as my comment goes, look at the number of strikes that Barry actually sees compared to every other hitter in the National League. He sees a whole lot fewer than everyone else, because pitchers are afraid that he’s simply going to hammer anything over the plate. Once that fear has subsided, his walk rate will probably decrease and he won’t be able to make up for that with a .260 batting average.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 4, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s no more unsubstantiated than saying that a 43 year old former superstar will be any better than other outfielders that we currently have.

Do two wrongs make a right? I didn’t even say that, though, nor I have I ever focused this conversation on the Cardinals in particular. I suggested that Barry Bonds is presumably cheap (with citations), and that I think he still offers a potential upside in excess of that cost.

As far as my comment goes, look at the number of strikes that Barry actually sees compared to every other hitter in the National League.

I’d rather not look at the stats of every hitter in the NL. You’re the one making the claim, so the burden of providing evidence is yours.

by astrostl on Jan 4, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Note: before you potentially go on a wild goose chase, the root criticism was on your assertion that, “Much of Barry Bonds’ worth is that pitchers have been afraid to throw him a strike.”

Barry Bonds would have a career .905 OPS if he never took a single walk, good enough to rank 59th of all time. That’s higher than Juan Gonzalez, Chase Utley, and Adam Dunn for further example.

by astrostl on Jan 4, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Career OPS. Yup. Career. Awesome.

Except he’s 43 years old and not 30. Or 37. Or even 39.

Is it hard to accept that maybe you’re wrong? I don’t have to prove any of my argument. You should try and prove that he’s as good as a .900 OPS as a hitter in 2009. Go ahead. Please, I beg you. I may be wrong too, but I’d rather not find out because i don’t like the guy anyway, don’t want him on the Cardinals, and I don’t care if some stupid AL GM wants to pick him up. Fine, go ahead. I. DO. NOT. CARE.

Until he actually gets signed to league minimum, you have no argument, do you? My argument is based on the fact that I don’t think he’d play for that (1), that he isn’t hardly worth it even at that price (2), and that no team wants to take a risk on a guy that nobody outside of San Fran (and yourself apparently) likes, and hasn’t picked up a bat in 18 months(3). You want to take issue with that, fine, but you’re not changing my mind on the subject, so you can stop arguing with me.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 4, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He’s actually 44, but this has to be contrasted with his recent performance as well as his price.

This argument isn’t about “me” and “you” being right or wrong. You don’t have to prove any of your argument, or do anything for that matter, but when people state opinion as fact I tend to call it.

I have never implied that he is “as good as a .900 OPS as a hitter in 2009,” only that I think he still offers a compelling ratio of apparent price to potential performance and that I was surprised that nobody picked him up last year – especially on the AL side.

As for the league minimum, the New York Times is the largest metro newspaper in the USA and the person quoted as saying it is his agent. That is more concrete than your skepticism.

Like I said earlier in the thread, “I think [this subject is] a good canvas for sorting out emotional bias in baseball fandom.”

by astrostl on Jan 4, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Regardless of my opinion

It still stands to reason that it’s just as likely that he’s washed up as he “offers a compelling ratio of apparent price to potential performance”.

If you could sign him to a minor league deal with no guaranteed money or make him a non-roster invitee, I could understand it — but to pay a guy anything when he refuses to go to spring training and prove he can hit, regardless of his legal woes, just doesn’t make any logical sense.

As far the NY Times goes, see my quote from above. Just because it’s printed in the paper doesn’t mean it’s fact. I see Scott Boras say ridiculous shit all the time in the newspapers (Varitek, $40M for example), but that doesn’t mean any of it has any real truth or positive expectation. It’s just as skeptical until it’s a concrete negotiation or contract as any skepticism I may have.

You have as much emotional bias as anyone else in “baseball fandom” when it comes to this topic. The lack of emotion involved in your decision on a player that elicits large amounts of emotional feedback is just as biased as anyone who has an emotional bent towards the subject.

I, for one, think this is a horrible canvas for sorting out emotional bias. When a large percentage of baseball fans dislike a player as much as they do Barry Bonds then how can emotional bias be “sorted out” among them? He elicits an emotional response from fans outside of San Francisco who hate him and also from those fans in San Francisco who have to constantly defend him. Unfortunately, one greatly outnumbers the other.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 5, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"regular drug testing"?

Not gonna happen, at least not any more often than any other player. It’s part of the CBA, and the union isn’t going to allow anyone to test Bonds more. Unless he wanted to do it, and did it on his own, which is also highly unlikely.

by spants on Jan 2, 2009 1:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I thought he wasn’t apart of the union. Now I don’t know all specifics on this side of the ball, but doesn’t that allow a team to do something such as require more tests?

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 4, 2009 1:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm

Since the union is looking into why Bonds wasn’t offered a contract, something tells me they’d look out for Bonds here, too. I think his lack of involvement has to do with licensing stuff.

by spants on Jan 4, 2009 1:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I looked it up.

Bonds withdrew from the MLBPA licensing agreement because he thinks he can make more money selling his own products.

by spants on Jan 4, 2009 2:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough. I crossed the two – I don’t really follow Bond’s issues

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 4, 2009 2:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Um, nah

I think Bonds can still hit. I doubt he’ll accept any of those terms though…I don’t think he wants to play that badly. He can happily take his millions and try to fend off the Feds.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 2, 2009 2:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't get it

Barry Bonds is still one of the best hitters in the game. He had a fricking .480 OBP last year and his OBP hasn’t dropped below .440 since 2000. I know he is a sucky feilder, but he not that much worse than Manny or Dunn or Burrell and besides he could be put in a DH role. For a team like the Rays, who don’t get any fans anyway, it would be a great signing. 1 year 2 million dollars for getting on base half the time seems pretty good to me.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 2, 2009 4:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Well then why didn't they do it last season?

And last time I checked, the NL doesn’t have a DH. If the Cards didn’t want him last year, there’s no way they want him now. I’m tired of reading the let’s get Bonds comments.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 2, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you had actually read the comment

I didn’t say we should get Bonds. I said that he could still be an excellent DH for an AL team at a discount price.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 2, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I read it, thanks

That portion of the comment wasn’t aimed specifically at you, but at the whole thread. The argument that he would be good for an AL team as a DH is, as I said in the bolded section, just as useless because no one signed him last year. That argument has been beaten to death a thousand times.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 2, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t get any value out of the “Cards should go Bonds” stuff either, but judging by the amount of people that seem to think he’s washed up I don’t think the conversations are worthless. Whether or not he goes on to be signed, I think it’s a good canvas for sorting out emotional bias in baseball fandom.

by astrostl on Jan 2, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if we had a DH

I would do this in a second, maybe in the OF but I cant imagine Bonds out there but id put him in the mix before Duncan tbh

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Jan 3, 2009 2:18 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

3 words

Hot stove fanpost!

by chuckb on Jan 3, 2009 10:53 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Technically,

Fanpost isn’t a word. So 2 words and something else.

Just kidding, I agree ;)

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 3, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fanpost

with a capital F is a word.

by spants on Jan 3, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

technically they are

FanPosts, according to the tabs on the welcome guide. That would put it in the made up word category, no?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 3, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If it's

capitalized it is a proper noun. Made up or not.

by spants on Jan 3, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For such an intelligent blog...

most of the posters sure do line up behind the blacklisting of our generations greatest hitter. He’s not a great guy? He took ‘roids? (How many on this blog are for Big Mac seeing the inside of the HOF- why the double standard?) So what? So many posters completely buy into the media/owner image of Bonds, I just don’t get it. How can VEB bloggers be so intelligently informed (relatively speaking) most of the time and led around by the nose on this issue. I’m tired of hearing about Bonds too, but I don’t blame him for the witch hunt.

I’m not going to make the argument out of respect for VEB rules, but opinions on Bonds boil down to politics. For what I would consider the more progressive view of this check out.

http://www.edgeofsports.com/2007-11-15-296/index.html
or
http://www.counterpunch.org/zirin06192007.html

by BustaCard on Jan 5, 2009 1:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that he's been given a fair shake by all the media either

I personally don’t like the man, but I’ve never undermined his achievements. Ever.

(Yes, I can say personally because I’ve had the opportunity to see him at 2 different events and witnessed his toxic personality first hand. You get a lot from a first impression, and Mr. Bonds doesn’t seem like the type of guy I would even want to get to know.)

How many on this blog are for Big Mac seeing the inside of the HOF- why the double standard?

I don’t have a double standard on this point, they should both be in the Hall. Pete Rose shouldn’t.

If you’re comparing them as men, there’s a huge difference between them. McGwire is a consummate professional, a great teammate, and was a great ambassador for the game as player. His 70 homer chase in 1998 really brought the game back to the national forefront and he treated the chase with humility, class, dignity, and with a tremendous respect to those that came before him. Bonds is none of those things. He’s not gracious, he’s not humble, he doesn’t respect the elder statesman in the game who have enabled him to make millions playing it. He’s crass and unapologetic for his actions. Much of the scorn that he’s gotten is deserved because he’s brought most of it on himself.

While Bonds has never tested positive for steroids, neither has McGwire. The evidence against Bonds is much more damaging than the evidence against McGwire as well. People try to use Mac’s testimony at the Senate hearing as damning evidence, but I personally feel that he was simply trying to be an ambassador and steward of the game and to get to the real issue that should have carried that day: How do we keep our young children from making potentially hazardous heath decisions?

Before 2001, Bonds had never hit more that 50 homers in a season and had surpassed 40 homers just 3 times. He then proceeded to hit more homers in the next 4 years (including 27 more than he’d ever hit) then he had the previous 7 years while advancing in age and having his body blow up like a balloon.

In contrast, McGwire hit 49 homers as a rookie in 1986, in a massive pitchers park, in the middle of a dead ball era. He proceeded to slug over 30 homers four of the next five years until injuries took a toll on him. As soon as he got healthy, he slugged better that .650 for 5 straight seasons and was better than .700 in 3 of them. Mac’s body shape never really changed all that much from 1986, although he did get a little bigger and stronger, and he was always a slugging home run hitter. Bonds never was until 2001, about 12 months after he supposedly started taking steroids and had bulked up nearly 30-40 pounds more than his previous playing weight.

Barry Bonds was a sure fire Hall of Fame player with more money than he knew what to do with prior to his alleged steroid use. He had no reason to use PED’s except to break records. I think this is why players like Hank Aaron despise him: He cheated for his own vanity, and any writer comparing what Barry has gone though to what Hank went through is doing a great disservice to Hank, who did things the right way his entire career. My opinion of Bonds is very similar to that of Bob Costas: What he did was selfish and it discredits the accomplishments of those that came before him.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 5, 2009 7:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Though I’m not sure about Pete Rose, but that’s not important right now.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 5, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree on Bonds and Big Mac

they might have used steroids (I have no proof), Rose on the other hand did bet on baseball games, he knew he could get banned, he did it anyway, he should be out.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 5, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

I’m fine with Rose being in. Sure, what he did was wrong, but if he only bet on his own team, he didn’t do anything damaging to the game. I hate to say it but you kind of can’t blame him for wanting to win some extra money just doing his job, salaries weren’t as high back then (NOT ADVOCATING GAMBLING, just saying…)

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 6, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So

Should Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte be re-instated as well? If anything, betting on his own team is WORSE than betting on other teams because you can influence the outcome.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 6, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't really want to

go here, hence the “that’s not important right now.” I would say that it is his job to make his team win, so if he bets on making his team win, then he’s not really doing anything that will affect the game.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 6, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The game as in

the game he’s betting on, not baseball itself

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 6, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the only thing I would argue to this

is that, unless he’s betting on every game, there could be some undue influence. For example, he could overuse the bullpen on the game that he bet on the team to win, only to let the team suffer the next game on a game that he did not bet upon.

It’s hard for me to feel too sorry for him, though. He knew the risks that he was running. And it wasn’t even to get some competitive edge in the way that the steroid people did.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 6, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Except

that if he’s not betting every game then he’ll have more emphasis on the games that he’s betting on.

Also, I’ve never met a gambler who would break all the rules so that he could gamble, and then gamble in a way that’s logical and doesn’t have a slippery slope into being a complete degenerate gambler and betting on other things as well.

Lastly, it is expressly forbidden by baseball’s rules of conduct to gamble on baseball while playing, managing, or involved with a teams baseball operations. The punishment is lifetime banishment. Pete Rose knew the consequences of his actions before the took those actions. We could argue the semantics of whether going over the speed limit should be illegal or not, but the fact of the matter is that it is against the law and every person knows that you subject yourself to the consequences of that action when you take it.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 6, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This is all true

But I still say he was a great player, just as Bonds was a great player. If it was my choice, he would be in the Hall regardless of his egocentric attitude and his complete disregard for the rules. It’s not like putting him in the Hall is equivalent to saying “gamling and breaking the rules are okay.”

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 6, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's my final point then

If you’re going to let Pete Rose in, then Shoeless Joe and Eddie Cicotte would have to be considered as well, and they merit more consideration in my view because nobody could prove the either actually took gambling money or threw any of the games of that World Series.

They were banned in the prime of their careers. Cicotte could easily have won 300+ games and Shoeless Joe would have been another great player in the Ruth era. The other 6 players that had lifetime bans would also have to be reinstated as well, posthumously.

He broke a rule, he pays the punishment. If you think 17 years of lying to the general public and 2 years of making money off of telling the truth is enough punishment then that’s your opinion, I just don’t share it. If they want to put him in after he dies I might consider that, but in no way should Pete Rose ever personally get to see his bronze cast in the Hall of Fame while he’s alive.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 6, 2009 5:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

After he dies

Is a fantastic idea. And FWIW, I certainly think that if Rose gets in, Joe and Eddie should be considered too.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 6, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see how that matters AT ALL

Had it not been for Babe Ruth and a roaring economy in the 1920’s, the Black Sox Scandal in 1919 very well may have doomed the game. Gambling rules were put into effect so that those type of activities would be dealt with swiftly and with extremely punitive punishment. Rose knew the rules and broke them anyway, then spent 17 years DENYING that he did anything wrong, knowing that he had the entire time.

He hasn’t learned his lesson, either. He continues to do book signings at casinos, sold a book to profit off of his admission of betting on baseball after 17 years of denial, and continues to plead his case about a deal he made with a man who’s been dead for 19 years.

Pete Rose has lived his entire life by his own set of rules. Nobody else’s rules have ever applied to him. He’s been indicted for tax evasion not once, but TWICE, by trying to smuggle suitcases full of cash through U.S. Customs after autograph signings overseas. This just proves he fails to learn lessons and will continue to live according to his own rules. He’s shown no contrition, and his only motivation for admitting and apologizing for his actions is to get himself into the Hall of Fame. He’s not interested in why it was wrong, what the potential consequences of his actions could be to the game he loves, only that he’s being punished for something that he did that he doesn’t feel was damaging. It’s a self-serving, selfish campaign for his right to have his bust in with the rest of the great players.

I don’t care if he only bet on the games that other teams were playing, it is still against the moral and written rules of the game. He knew them, broke them, and is and will be punished for them. He’s being made an example of, just like Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte, players who surely would have had HOF careers had they not been banned for taking gambler’s money.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 6, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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