Ashes to Ashes, Grit to Grit
photo courtesy momup, who's always liked Aaron Miles
I was all set to wax... well, if not rhapsodic, at least gently dismissive about Aaron Miles. Utility infielders are easy to like. They don't get paid much, relatively speaking, they'll play anywhere, they come out when the chips are down and the star's hurt, and they look more like us—they're not as athletic, they're shorter, they can't do anything the chicks dig. It's fun to watch these normal people play a game that seems so distant at its superhuman edges. Super Joe, Bo Hart—I've been a fan of plenty of utility infielders before, and I'm sure I will be again. But he had to go and play the under-appreciated card.
"I'm excited to be a Cubbie," Miles told Chicago Cub beat writers on a conference call this afternoon. "Being a Cardinal was great and that part is over now. Now I'm ready to be a Cubbie and play the game the right way and show St. Louis that they let somebody go that maybe they shouldn't have."
I understand the need for self-affirmation in stuff like this. You've got to think you're the best; you have to think that you are vitally important, completely in charge. That's part of doing a very difficult job. So this isn't, of course, about Aaron Miles the person. But Aaron Miles the ballplayer is a utility infielder who can't play shortstop and a second baseman who can't hit enough to start. The Cardinals couldn't find $4 million to pay Russ Springer, their best relief pitcher two years running. Two years and $5 million for a seriously limited backup infielder—even one who, at times, last year, seemed like he might be their second-best relief pitcher—would be ridiculous.
The kind of teeth-gnashing going on around the internet is outsized but understandable; if he really is the conduit through which people identify with the Cardinals, or something like that, it makes sense. But on a purely baseball level, losing Aaron Miles is not going to break this club. That's why they got him as ballast in the unforgettable Larry Bigbie/Ray King trade; that's why they non-tendered him twice, as Miles himself pointed out. He hasn't played 130 games for the Cardinals all three years because he was helping the team, he did because nobody else was.
The forces that dictated that Moz not keep Miles around after his fluky 2008 are the same ones that brought him here in place of Abraham Nuñez in the first place. Utility infielders have to be cheap just as much as they have to be good. Miles was not cheap anymore, and luckily for him the Cubs have had too much luck with scrappy infielders over the past few years to discriminate about it. But Aaron Miles has priced himself out of his job, like so many utility infielders before him; now it's time for Brian Barden or Tyler Greene or Joe Thurston to benefit from it like he once did.
Joe Thurston will make a fine Aaron Miles. He hustles like crazy, he's stuck around in the minors with cloudy big league prospects for years For Love of the Game, and to top it all off he can't really play shortstop. He's even got 68 minor league triples—he's like Aaron Miles with a side of Whiteyball. I think it'll be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
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Comments
Here here!
Spot on analysis there. By the way, the Chicago Tribune reported that Miles was viewed as an option to start at 2nd and leadoff when then want to go with a lefty lineup. So this move is likely to hurt the Cubs in the field as well as help the Cards’ financial flexibility.
by apack on Jan 2, 2009 9:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hendry
giving Miles 2 yrs suggests that he was bidding against another team or Hendry was bidding against himself. Why 2 yrs for Aaron Miles? I just dont understand how these mlb gms dont see what normal fans do. I am not as much as a stat guy as lboros/chuck b etc but even i know that this is going to turn out poorly for the cubs. Why cant Hendry? And how is he being paid millions not to?
by njnick on Jan 2, 2009 9:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
seems obvious
that miles was signed to replace derosa who they didn’t want to pay, at least next year when he became a FA. miles’ story rings like nunez, who subsequently flopped outside of tlr’s magic rotations. i’m not a tlr fan, but i have to admit that he seems to get the most out of milesian players, which is not the same as saying he gets the most out of the team as a whole.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jan 2, 2009 9:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
That Glavine/Maddux commercial...
…is the greatest Nike commercial of all time.
by Thrasher on Jan 2, 2009 10:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
now that's from outta left field
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 2, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
Didn’t you see the link for it?
“Hey!, There is Cy Young Winners Over Here!”
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 2, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Feel Bigger?
That line always cracked me up.
If only Greg would have came back with….
wait for it….
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 2, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good move Mo
Now use those money wisely.
GO CARDS!!!
by SuperSeve on Jan 2, 2009 10:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
It was a necessary, smart move
I agree that, working within the constraints of modern baseball, and more specifically an organization like the Cardinals, that Miles is the perfect example of what (mid to upper mid-sized payroll) teams can’t afford, when they have contracts like Pujols, Carp, Lohse, Glaus, and arb cases such as Ankiel, Ludwick and Wellemeyer on the horizon. It’s an absolute necessity to pay Kennedy his 4 million owed, have Ryan, Greene, Thurston, Barden battle for Utility MI at a ML-minimum salary, and spend the few extra million on another Lefty or sweeten whatever offer we will put out to an SP. That equation simply doesn’t have room for Miles in it.
I’m not sure if he makes the Cubs better or worse, but I certainly feel that the loss of DeRosa hurts the cubs. He was a Cardinal-killer, but also, hit within the top five of OBP, AVG, and Slugging if I’m not mistaken. I think Cleveland will be very happy with the addition they’ve made.
When first hearing about the Miles-Chicago signing, my first instinct was to think, “great, 2 million more to give to some type of arm”, but I think that money will just be slotted over to one of our Arb cases instead. It does however, keep the money slotted for arm-enhancement (pun intended for Albert/Carp) to the 25-man available. My hope is still Sheets and Biemel, though the pessimist inside me isn’t very confident at all. With Mo’s comments indicating he’s likely to add “depth” to the rotation, and not wanting to go to a 3yr+ deal, Sheets seems to be the top-tier, with Garland, Looper, and others more likely.
I’m also hopeful that next year, when Kennedy is off the books, Greene has shown us what his true colors are, and we are open up the middle, Brian Roberts and/or other FAs available will be within Mo’s strike zone and can be aggressive in getting them signed. Again, hopeful, but realistically aware that it is not likely.
I’m still happy to see Miles get his cash, and it looks like some good PT as well. I’m always appreciative for what players give this organization, and won’t necessarily look forward to seeing him with the blue pinstripes on. But then again, I do hope I get to see Ankiel bat against him at Wrigley when the wind is blowing out…………
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Jan 2, 2009 10:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
why would we get Roberts?
Some other richer team will just get him and we will have to scrounge for whomever
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 2, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well written
I agree wholeheartedly that Miles has the ring of Abe Nunez to him and it will be interesting to see how ol’ Grit, in all of his underappreciatedness, fares outside of the TLR roster rotations. What is interesting to me is that the Cubs traded away a sharp utility knife for a dull one. Miles brings nothing to the table that Fontenot or Cedeno don’t bring, except one of baseball’s highest levels of grit. I don’t understand this move from the Cubbies’ perspective if it doesn’t prove a precursor to an acquisition of Jake Peavy. I look forward to the emergence of the next St. Louis super-sub.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 2, 2009 11:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
i still think its a precursor to Bradley
I think he would be a big addition to the Cubs.
Dont know how it all works out with the loss of DeRosa though
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 2, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The irony
What are the odds that Bradley plays over 130 games in the OF for the Cubs in 2009? The Cubs would have a greater need for DeRosa (despite Grit’s OF experience) with the signing of Bradley due to Bradley’s hobbled knee and checkered injury past. Who else will they plug in? Fukudome? Gathright? Both are inferior offensive options to DeRosa.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 2, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
i do like the idea that it backfires on them.
p.s. who wishes we had DeRosa?
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 2, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take DeRosa, no doubt
The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs
by jd is legend on Jan 2, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
me too
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 2, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I do too
my natural hate for him was only associated with the Cubs uniform, but it’d be nice if he was on our roster. Seems like he’s got good opposite field power; he had the Cubs up in the playoffs for that brief moment, until the natural order of things restored itself.
by phesto on Jan 3, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have no problem with them not bringing Aaron Miles back.
In fact, I think it’s the right move. But-everyone roll your eyes at me-they have once again handled a players exit from the team poorly. Goold wrote a column about it the other day. Miles was a Cardinal is good standing-by all accounts a good guy and a hard worker, a good teammate, liked by the fans. Except no one bothers to pick up the phone and say thank you for your service, but we are going in another direction. No, they don’t get in contact with him until they decide to offer a last minute contract. Huh? What’s that all about?
So now Miles leaves with a bad feeling about the end of his time here. He probably won’t have much more to say publicly. But what is he going to say to his good friends in the Astros, Rockies, and now the Chicago organization about St. Louis?
I’m sorry. I expect more from the Cardinal organization, and I do think Miles deserved at least a phone call. Why in the world are they so reluctant to show a minimal amount of respect to a player on the way out?
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 2, 2009 12:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Check out Bernie's comments on B. Anderson as 2nd baseman
KenW,
No offense, sir, but it seems that you may be falling for the hype about the Cardinals’ prospects. No question the farm system is better. But if you talk to baseball scouts, as I do, they look at what the Cardinals have and don’t see a lot of future front-line major-league players. When Mozeliak was trying to make something happen during the winter meetings, teams asked about Colby Rasmus and Brett Wallace and that was about it. Other teams don’t believe the heralded Bryan Anderson can catch in the big leagues, and suggest that he be moved to second base. But the Cardinals resisted that, apparently unwilling to admit they’ve been wrong about his defensive upside. And now his trade profile has dropped as a result. Thanks for your comments.
-B
— Bernie Miklasz
10:37 am January 1st, 2009
More reason why A. Miles isn’t necessary – the “touted” farm system can/should be filling in these holes for much, much less than the $5/2 years Miles is getting.
by jomfa on Jan 2, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh...
Bernie is such a __________ (Fill in the blank)
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 2, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bernie
Oh, I’m not so much touting Bernie as some great person as I am noting the comment made about B. Anderson. With Yadi around for years to come, it seems as though Anderson should either be moved to a position of need for the Cardinals or traded. However, if the buyers of Anderson are only interested if he proves he can handle a switch in position, then again, there’s a reason to move the guy out from behind the plate. With the loss of Miles, it would seem to be a good time to try the guy at 2nd come Spring.
by jomfa on Jan 2, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Worst Idea Ever
He is so much more valuable as a Catcher than a Second Baseman. He is one of the youngest players in AAA right now. So he still has plenty of time to get better behind on the plate. I haven’t heard him being horrible catcher either just not a great one yet. He had a strong first half in Memphis this year and than slid in the 2nd half which is not surprising of a a catcher.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 2, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Catcher and Second
These are the two positions where above-average offensive skills have the most value for a club. It would be a very interesting transition—one that Craig Biggio made rather successfully—and one that would certainly benefit the MLB Cards.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 2, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A Catcher is more Valuable than a Second Baseman
If Offensive skills are equal and it is not even close. Not even close
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 2, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
And the skill set for the two positions varies rather widely… Biggio was a little catcher who probably would never have survived the pounding behind the plate. His speed and quick feet allowed him to make the switch to 2B; most former catchers wind up at a corner infield spot. Biggio and Dale Murphy are outliers…
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Jan 2, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
for everyone who replied...
Yes – a great catcher “could” hold lots of value… but to say he’s more valuable as a catcher than second baseman doesn’t take reality in to account. If Bernie is indeed right (grant the possibility) about other teams believing B. Anderson to have no future at catcher, then he holds absolutely no value as catcher no matter what us fans think. You cannot expect other teams to recognize value you force upon them and if it’s a matter of all other teams being too stupid to realize how valuable Anderson is, it still doesn’t matter. Reality is what matters.
by jomfa on Jan 2, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is another reason why Bernie is wearing thin
I really doubt he has talked to a majority of the scouts in the game. This might just be another example of “small sample size”. I really used to like Bernie, but it seems lately he has found that being negative about everything is the best way keep his readers interested.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 2, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
P-D writers each have roles
Miklasz plays to the “front office is so cheap” types.
Strauss to the “we need a proven veteran” types.
Gordon to the “we’re the Best Fans In Baseball™” types.
Goold to the thoughtful, realistic, stat-receptive types.
by Anonymous Communist on Jan 2, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i could have sworn Gordo was the
“talk out my ass” type
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 2, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the 2 aren't
incompatible …
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 3, 2009 7:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brandon Inge
Chuck Norris bows to no man...but he does bow to The Mang.
by miniboscorino on Jan 2, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps my meaning was lost in poor wording
What I meant to say is that the replacement level catcher and second baseman, offensively, is far lower than third, short, first, or the outfield. Thus, shifting from catcher to second base would best maintain the value of Anderson’s offensive skill (compared to a shift to third or the outfield). Second is also an area of need for the Cards moving forward.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 2, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really see this
He’s not an all-star behind the plate defensively but I’ve never seen him do anything that made me thing he couldn’t stick there. Regardless, if it is true, the Cardinals should try him out as a back for Yadi in 2010. What’s the worst that can happen?
by azruavatar on Jan 2, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That is what I am thinking
Another year at Memphis than learn under the tootalage of Molina in 2010
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 2, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
…It’s better seeing how his bat progresses at this point than bailing on the guy. The better he gets, the higher his trade value is.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 2, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The worst that could happen...
The worst that could happen is that we stunt his development by not giving him regular at bats or that he loses confidence. The best that could happen is that he becomes good and we lose a year of eligibility before free agency. I don’t see a lot of upside in making him a backup. We won’t really be able to showcase him for trade (with limited at bats) and the Cardinals (2009) would be only marginally better with him.
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Jan 2, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
* I meant
2010. Unless he dominates AAA in 2009, I think even another year (or half a year) in 2010 would be better than a bench role (unless Yadi is injured). If he dominates in 2009 then trading him or Yadi would be the preference to gaining a marginal amount of wins from a backup.
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Jan 2, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But the point wouldn't be
to get a marginal amount of wins from a backup. The point would be to give him enough playing time to prove to other (or to us) that he can succeed as a catcher at the ML level. If he proves himself (in 2010 or even the latter half of 2009), then he re-establishes his trade value or gives the Cards a possible alternative to Yadi in 2011.
(Please, no one tell my daughter I added that last phrase!)
by ArkansasTravs on Jan 3, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't hate Bernie
I actually think he is pretty good overall, even if I don’t always agree with him. That comment “unwilling to admit they’ve been wrong” is hilarious to me. He’s been in AAA 1 year, and he was 21 years old. He just turned 22 a few weeks ago.
That comment suggests the verdict is in, when it is clearly not. The list of Cardinal farmhands that played at the AAA level at 21 is short. Maybe it’s ok if he doesn’t get dealt just yet. Maybe he can stick at catcher. Bernie makes it sounds like he is some 25 year old former prospect, and he isn’t.
by Merry CRasmus on Jan 3, 2009 2:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would rather the FO be Cold and make the Right decision
Than be Warm and make the wrong one. Never an easy way to tell someone that they are no longer wanted anymore. He is a grown man that needs to realize this is a business. It’s not personal, it’s business.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 2, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You always bring this up...
…and I’m curious…but do you have any evidence that MOST or even SOME of the other teams in MLB handle things this way?
I don’t mean this as a put-down or anything, but it is a serious question.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 2, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
the Cubs let Kerry Wood know up front that they wouldn’t be competing for his services.
by spants on Jan 2, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Isolated incidents...
…of graceful exits are different than repeated patterns of similar conduct. That’s what I was asking for, because it isn’t fair to criticize the FO for handling exits in a manner consistent with the majority of teams in MLB.
I don’t really know one way or the other, and honestly I’d like to find out…Hence the reason I asked.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 2, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually the Cubs did not let Kerry Wood know.
Hendry did an interview stating some stuff about how it’s only fair to Kerry Wood to let him go out and make as much $$ as he possibly can and what not. Hendry made it sound like the only reason he was not going to make an offer to Wood was because Wood was not going to accept a 1 year deal. As we know Wood signed a 2 year deal with Cleveland.
Well a week or so after the Hendry interview they interviewd Kerry Wood and his reaction was, “I would have accepted a 1 year deal” He was NEVER given the option of a 1 year deal.
So basically Chicago cut Kerry Wood but spun it as they were giving him the best option for Kerry. Look I think Kerry Wood likes being a Cub and has made enough $$ that I could see him accepting a 1 year deal with the cubbies.
So teams do stuff like this all the time.
by ICbirdfan on Jan 2, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Serious answer then. I am not trying to bash either.
I bring it up because I happen to think good player relations is good for business. What do they gain when they part with a player like Aaron Miles on a bitter note? Does it help anyone? A simple phone call is too much to do for a three season player in good standing on your team? The Phillies have done the same thing with Pat Burrell, and I think that stinks too.
The Red Sox and Indians excel at good player relations. They make it a point to treat their players with respect-even the ones that leave. So do the Rangers and Giants. But to me it doens’t matter what other teams do because I think the Cardinals need to do a much better job (NO not babying them, NO, not coddling, YES show a little respect) with their player relations.
I’m a little shocked that more people don’t agree with that sentiment. John Mozeliak himself said he wanted to have better player relations. They have a LONG way to go IMO.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 2, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
nothing wrong with good player relations
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 2, 2009 8:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand what was done by the Cardinals
that was so wrong. I think they viewed Miles as a utility/bench guy and that is the last thing they fill out on the roster. They didn’t know what the budget for that role was going to be until they filled a few more spots. He viewed himself as a starter and wanted to be treated like one. He was unwilling to be patient and work on the Cardinals timetable, so he moved on. They put in an offer when it was apparent something was going to happen, but I think if Miles really wanted to be a Cardinal he would have been more patient. He just wanted to get paid, which is fine. We’ll see what the market for his services is like in two years.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jan 2, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
poor communication seems a cornerstone of the current regime, fo and on the field
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jan 2, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sadly, that's true.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 2, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It starts from the top
I don’t know much about Mr. DeWitt but it seems like since 2007 he and origanization has turned a direction down the wrong path in many areas. The one good turn they made was fixing the minor league system, but other than that I have been scratching my head at MANY of the moves the Cardinals have made over the past couple of years. I’ve said it before…but I think in 2006 DeWitt reached his goal of winning a World Series in St. Louis but now his “goals” are not the same as he had from 1996-2006. The next two years will be real interesting with the Cardinals as they move forward with Tony probably leaving and Albert’s contract coming up. To be frank, judging by the last 2 years…I am a little worried about the way the franchise is heading. Is DeWitt setting up to sell the team after the current economic recession??? Time will tell.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Jan 2, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Was that "sigh" referring to my post???
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Jan 2, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i don’t know what spants’s sigh was about, but for six or seven years i’ve been hearing about dewitt’s intention of selling the team soon, and i know that makes me sigh.
by greenback06 on Jan 2, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes, if i was to sigh
its cause KY seems to need to express his baseless opinionin every post he makes.
by FunkeeC on Jan 2, 2009 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So every post I make is a baseless opinion?
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Jan 2, 2009 8:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It just irks me
When I post an opinion and I get “sighs” as a response. I know my thoughts are not the same as quite a few people here..but I think having different views here is what makes this place great. .Sorry if DeWitt MIGHT be thinking about selling the team in a few years to cash in on his investment is my opinion but it is. And no I have no evidence of this…it’s called a “gut feeling”.
I guess I can’t give my opinions here anymore because I always have to wear “everything is great in Cardinal nation binders” on when I post now?
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Jan 2, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no, you do not need to stop giving your opinions
but it just seems that you insist on making the same exact post every time lately. The sighs might be out of line, but you can’t exactly blame people for getting tired of it. You even allude to it yourself in the “I have said it before…” part, kind of like you think you constantly need to remind us.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 2, 2009 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I may have went overboard in my reaction
And for that I apologize to Spants.
But it just seems that having any precieved negative thoughts about the way the Cardinals are being run over the past year or two is quickly stomped on. And to be frank my thoughts about the way the Cardinals are going into this season isn’t too rosey.
It just seems like the FO is not as committed to competing for the NL Central as they were before. It’s kind of left me in a grumpy mood about the way the team is going right now. Maybe I shouldn’t get so wrapped up into it as I am.
Sorry guys take care.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Jan 2, 2009 8:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
for being rude. I fired it off without thinking it through.
Still, I think that that you’ve been a one-note tune lately. And it does seem baseless. I understand that you have a hunch, but it’s not based in anything measurable, and that is the heart of the site. Further, just because you disagree with their methods (as MANY of us do) you cannot dispute that they are trying to win. You do not spend upwards of $90 million when you don’t want to win.
Anyway, let’s unstick the needle and move to the next song, ’kay?
by spants on Jan 3, 2009 1:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont understand that
Payrolls from 2000-2008:
* 2008: $ 99,624,449
* 2007: $ 90,286,823
* 2006: $ 88,891,371
* 2005: $ 92,106,833
* 2004: $ 83,228,333
* 2003: $ 83,786,666
* 2002: $ 74,660,875
* 2001: $ 78,538,333
* 2000: $ 63,900,000
The teams payroll has actually went up since 2006 (Note that it went down the year we actually won the WS). Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the 2009 payroll was projected to go up to 105M+ . Of course I wouldn’t blame them if it stayed steady this year because of the economy. Anyway, how is raising payroll significantly a sign that they are changing their goals?
And the [sigh] is seconded here.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 2, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
jill i really think if you look back, every player that has left angry, always over valued himself
and Mini Me is no different. don’t fool yourself, that is what this is all about. everyone of them felt the Cardinals should have paid them a lot more than they are worth. and when that didn’t happen they got mad & started taking shots. they didn’t want to leave & they didn’t want to move & they wanted paid. i can’t blame any of them for that, but i do fault every one of them for how they handled leaving. a lot of them have acted like school in July, no class.
i am by no means saying the Cards should not give them a nice card or a gift basket & a thank you for their time in the STL. but that should not be expected. the millions of dollars they are paid & the love from the fans should really be all the thanks the players should expect.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 2, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, thank you for putting me in my place.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 2, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
whoa whoa whoa
WHOA
i’m not attacking you at all jill. just trying to get you to see it’s a biz & the reason why they all have hard feelings once their time in the STL had ended. i even agreed with you that the Cards should say thanks or something when a player leaves.
i think how they’ve acted once they left also shows everyone who they really are as people. need an example? take a look at how Matty MO & Mike Matheny acted once their time in the STL ended. with class & dignity. their were no hard feelings. there were no harsh words. they know it’s a biz & they knew why the Cards chose not to resign them. they were both sad to go but knew it was in the best interest of both parties if they moved on. there’s a big reason why both men are still welcome and in fact encouraged to be around the team.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 3, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it sure feels like an attack to me.
I’m sorry I ever brought the topic up. Player relations is not important to most of the folks here, or to the Cardinals. I’ll just have to accept that and move along.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jan 4, 2009 9:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm very sorry you took it that way
that was never my intention. i’m really sorry jill.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 4, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“Now I’m ready to be a Cubbie and play the game the right way and show St. Louis that they let somebody go that maybe they shouldn’t have.”
now that’s precious!
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 2, 2009 12:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
precious? or stupifying?
I’ve always supported A. Miles and not at all ready to join any bandwagon against him whatsoever. The “let … go..shouldn’t have” part I understand. I applaud it; I agree with him.
The “play the game the right way” has me miffed. What did he mean?
by the Tewk on Jan 2, 2009 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess
he doesn’t feel he got his WS ring the “right” way.
by spants on Jan 2, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The other thing:
Under another manager, I doubt Miles would’ve seen as much playing time.
by spants on Jan 2, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I also wonder about that
Because if he’s saying that the Cardinals don’t play the game right, I can’t imagine that sitting too well with the fans, the players, or anyone else. Especially TLR.
by Edbird on Jan 2, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't read it that way.
That’s playing to the new home-town fans who think the Flubs play the game the “right way.” (Of course, their track record does not support that contention.)
by StanTheManFan on Jan 2, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When I read that comment from Miles
To be honest I lost a lot of respect for him. Sorry but Miles should keep his mouth shut and just be happy he got the contract that he did. No excuse to bad mouth the Cards to the press…even if he was upset about something.
After the whole Edmonds thing I kind of wonder if the Cubs origanization isn’t telling these guys to bad mouth the Cards in the press to try and “stick it” to them. Don’t remember other recent players going to other teams OTHER than the Cubs bad mouthing the Cardinals in the press. Even Rolen didn’t say anything like Miles and Edmonds did.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Jan 2, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yah
it just sounded melodramatic
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 3, 2009 3:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
first off I have kinda liked Miles, but I really am not sadto see him go
it is just smart baseball business that you don’t overpay utility IFs. This organization has been ran with that premise for years now, I think we can all agree on that.
Now to get back on point….I read it as Miles stating he is going to go and play the game right, just as he has tried to play the game right during his entire tenure with the Cards. He probably just meant that by continuing to play that way he will prove to the Cards that they will miss him.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 2, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I like Miles
but it’s not like one of my favorite players is leaving… Pujols, Ludwick and Ankiel are still on the team, as well as wainwright, motte and perez. in fact, no starter is leaving the team, so it’s expected to lose some old players
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 3, 2009 3:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In anticipation of the bruised fruit
about to be heading the Cardinals’ way, there seems to be a distinctive smell of sour grapes about Aaron Miles on this board today. I’m especially amused by the indefatigable optimists who keep trying to see letting Miles go as a sign that the clueless Mozeliak has a constructive plan for the Cardinals instead of as a further affirmation of his cluelessness. Meanwhile, the stated goals for the offseason keep on shifting and nothing gets accomplished.
by Mike G on Jan 2, 2009 1:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
What would you liked to
have done with Miles, Mike G? Would topping the Cubs offer shown Mo has an offseason plan?
by njnick on Jan 2, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's January 2nd...
…the Cards were not going to out-bid the Yankees for CC or Burnett (and neither was anybody else!) OK, they got out-bid on Fuentes… the Angels have out-bid non-Yankee teams before. I believe Randy Johnson wanted no part of the summertime heat in St. Louis, hence his signing with the Giants. What else is out there in the FA market that has to be signed now???
Look for a deal or two closer to spring training (or even after it starts)… it’s waaaay to early to claim “cluelessness” on Mo’s part!
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Jan 2, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What has been accomplished?
Besides the Yankees, who have unlimited resources and are essentially bidding with themselves when they go after a guy, what team has made a butt load of moves and “accomplished” something (whatever the hell that means)? The Cardinals have brought in three left handed relievers to duke it out for the loogy spot and upgraded at SS and ITS JANUARY MOTHER FLETCHING SECOND!!! I’d say they’ve been just as active as the rest of baseball.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 2, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but the Red Sox have been so busy too!
wait a minute, the team with the second highest payroll in the majors hasn’t made as many moves as we have yet? Time to get anxious.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 2, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Khalil Greene
I for one think this was an “A” move by Mo. I think Greene slugs at least .450 next year. Im excited to watch him mash.
by njnick on Jan 2, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to pick on you, Mike,
but after reading countless comments similar to yours on Post Dispatch’s Cards Talk, I have come to the conclusion that cursory, demeaning comments like yours come from people who haven’t given very much thought to the organization’s strategy or longterm goals.
I’m really not trying to single you out, but rather to make an observation about those types of summary condemnations of the Cardinal Organization. I’m no organizational apologist; they fuck up plenty, and I’m the first person to point it out then I think they fucked up. But how is letting Miles go (for two flipping years and a couple million bucks, mind you) evidence that Mo is clueless? Look at it in isolation — only this move. Would you really like to sign Miles for 2 fucking years for a few million bucks when we already have a better second baseman plus a few much cheaper utility men? I didn’t think so.
Now look at this move in the context of this offseason. That’s really why you are upset. Because Mo hasn’t brought in any big names, isn’t it? As Goaler and redbirdnation point out, the only moves we haven’t made are those in which we had no realistic shot at getting, or those in which we were out-bid. Lets throw out the first category — did you, as a Cardinal fan, honestly think we were going to acquire CC Sabathia when the Yankees have literally tons of money to spend? As for the second category, I can understand a little frustration in getting out-bid, but would you really wanted to have committed 3 years to Fuentes? (I realize he signed for 2, but his 3rd year vests based on innings pitched).
I know people are upset because Mo said he would be aggressive this offseason, but I think he has been; the deals just haven’t gotten done. I don’t interpret “being aggressive” as “making acquisitions at all costs.” Discretion is the better part of valor, and I’m glad we have a GM who is aggressive but isn’t going to be taken advantage of. Not alot has been happening so far this offseason outside of the big clubs. Lets wait and see what the team looks like when we break Spring Training before we call Mo clueless. After all, he did pretty damned good last year.
by Ray Lankford on Jan 2, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Well said, Ray
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 2, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A good thoughtful response, Ray Lankford
and one that understands that my real gripe was not the loss of Miles. My problem is the constant failure of the Cardinal management to follow up on what they themselves say are their goals. I’ve never been convinced that Fuentes was the answer to anyone’s prayers, but the Cardinal made a big point of saying he was their priority and chief target. If that really were the case, then they should have made a serious effort to outbid the Angels for his services. If that meant paying more than the Angels were willing to pay because of his stated preference, then they should have done it; they haven’t exactly been spending money on much else this winter. But that isn’t the Cardinal way. The Cardinal way is to talk big and then always conveniently fall short and settle for second or third best in free agency. There is a serious disconnect between the Cardinals’ valuation of players and that of the market, and this has been going on for several years now. Sometimes the Cardinals turn out to be right and sometimes wrong, but the bottom line is they never manage to improve the team from outside, only to tread water. They also seem to value their prospects higher than anyone else does; as a result they are never able to use them in a productive trade. They obviously want to hold on to Rasmus and probably for good reason but is everyone else equally untouchable, or are they simply not as valuable to other teams as they are to us? The Cardinals do seem willing to risk big money on their own players—Mulder, Carpenter—but perhaps some of those dollars might have been better spent in free agency.
Ultimately, one gets frustrated by the gap between what the Cardinals talk of doing and what they actually manage to achieve and by their constantly shifting goals, priorities, and rationalizations meant to justify their lack of significant improvement. To me, that adds up to a fundamental and deeply ingrained cluelessness. I’ll be happy to be proved wrong in the next month or two, but I’m not counting on it.
by Mike G on Jan 2, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I feel you Mike
It is frustrating to support a team that you feel has their heads up their asses. Trust me, I’ve been a Mizzou Tigers fan forever (read: late 80s on). Bob Stull will never shake my hand.
I just don’t think that’s the case with the Cardinals, however. Its an honest difference of opinion. I attribute their perceived hypocricy to market-place posturing. I could be giving them waaay too much credit, but last year’s offseason really sold me. Rolen for Glaus? Mo should be in jail for that steal. Signing Lohse to a one year deal after he initially demanded 4-5? Pretty salty.
I think its pretty clear what our strategy is — value. We are all about value, whether it be through trades, FAs, or rookies. Arguably the easiest way to achieve a value-filled roster is to build a strong farm system. It definitely isn’t sexy. It definitely takes patience. But I’m willing to give them some more slack, because I think they have a long-term plan in place, and my gawd would it be exciting to fill a roster of low-paid rookies and be able to go out and acquire a few superstars to lead them. I think the recent hesitancy to spend big money on FAs is tied to the fact that we’d often have to give up our first round pick to get them. After seeing what Wallace has done, I’d also be inclined to keep all the first round picks we can get.
At the end of the day, we have honest differences of opinion, and that’s why this site is infinitely better than CardsTalk.
by Ray Lankford on Jan 2, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Aaron Miles gone?
ho-hum… yawn
He’s the epitome of “replaceable”
I agree Ray- maybe cut back on the F-bombs though
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 2, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no need to rush, Mike G
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 2, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't you guys remember a year ago
The Jubilation we felt when the Cardinals non-tendered Miles and we thought he was gone for good?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 2, 2009 1:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yup
And then Miles went out and had a pretty good year (in at least some ways), which has a tendency to warp hindsight.
We won’t know for sure whether this was good for the Cards and bad for the Cubs, and vice versa, until we actually see what kind of 2009 Grit has. Personally, I am expecting some kind of middle ground: not as good a year as this one, sorta acceptable, probably not worth what the Cubs are paying him, possibly better than Thurston or whoever plays the gritty role for us, likely not enough so to matter much or to justify the extra bucks. Miles just isn’t worth extremism.
That said, the money saved by letting Thurston play the grit role is only “saved” if it’s then used for something else with value. I have no problem at all with Mo’s refusal to waste money so far, and most of the proposed deals would have been wasteful — some very much so — if they had come about. If we get to April and the “saved” money is still in the bank, however, we might have something to gripe about.
by StanTheManFan on Jan 2, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for driving me nuts starting at SS Mini Me
now don’t let the door hit you where the good Lord split you
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 2, 2009 5:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
it's clearer now
that the new edition of the baseball dictionary can safely expunge the word “intangibles.”
Or, as a transition measure, have the entry read:
in-tan-gi-bles, n., an obsolete, meaningless concept. See now the new relevant term, ‘sabermetrics’
by the Tewk on Jan 2, 2009 6:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I will never understand
why people who seem to absolutely hate stats join a very stat-friendly site and then insult the hell out of stats
/pause rant
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 2, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
heh
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 2, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
only in sports
has the word “intangible” become a good thing. It means you can’t quantify it, you can’t feel it, you can’t quite figure out how, in this case, it’s useful. I think Miles had tangible benefits to this team—he could stand at shortstop, he was a good bat last year, he did his job without complaint. But an appeal to intangibles is, by its very nature, not a successful one. The goal is to try to quantify what he does, not write it off as something unseen but Very Very Important.
by DanUpBaby on Jan 2, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
intagibles are over rated
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 2, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes
they are a small part of the game, but not a major one
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 3, 2009 3:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For all I know
intangibles are what separates elite baseball players in terms of wOBA. I really have no idea, but I do know that if it’s not showing up somewhere, that I don’t think it’s making a big impact.
by haltz on Jan 3, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Time to go out and get some air.
I guess I am showing my frustrations way too much on here. And by the comments I have seen about my posts I can see where you guys are coming from.
Maybe it’s just the off season blues or something but I have been way too grumpy and I think it would be best if I step away from all the off season stuff and come back when my head is in a better place and we actually can see some games being played.
I do have a lot of these opinions that I have posted on here…but I think my tone as been a little too harsh and probably too over the top for you guys and even for myself. And yeah I have been harping on too many points for my own good…and I have become a broken record.
I will be back when I can add a little more than just the negative posts that have come from me as of late. Sorry for my tone as of late and my lack of well thought out posts.
Take care guys….spring training isn’t too far away….I hope to come back in a better frame of mind then.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Jan 2, 2009 8:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
we got a long way to go & a short time to get there
but we’ll get the KY, we’ll get there.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jan 2, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but we’ll get the KY, we’ll get there.
Maybe just leave the KY at home for now?
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 3, 2009 1:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Count me as one that is glad
Nothing against Miles personally, but I don’t want to match those dollars and i sure as hell don’t want him getting multiple years.
I know some people are getting worried nothing is going to happen. I’m waiting it out, but I can understand. However, I do think that some of these people that are upset would be just as upset, if not more, if the Cards matched that offer. If that happened, the same people would gripe about this being our answer to others acquisitions.
by Merry CRasmus on Jan 3, 2009 3:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
something is gonna happen
We have too much money left to spend and a glaring need in the rotation. There is no way that we are gonna go into spring training with our rotation. Moz is just being patient becuase they are a ton a starters like Perez and Wolf and Looper, one of which could be had for less. I still think we should go for Sheets, but I would be happy with Wolf on a 2 year deal.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 3, 2009 3:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i still dont see how
adding an arm like Wolf, Garland, or Looper makes us any better than last years team?
I know many people are saying we can get a deal on those guys but I still dont understand how thats an upgrade.
I could see Sheets or Lowe, and even maybe Perez being an upgrade, but part of me doesnt believe we will even be “in it” for that type of player
I mean I guess the team is saying they are going to improve this year by Carp being healthy and Perez being a better closer than last year, and Greene being somewhat of an improvement.
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jan 3, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying thats what i want
I would kill to have sheets or Lowe, but for some reason the org. likes to pick up average type pitchers.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 3, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
filling out the rotation with wolf et al is not what we need to win. no doubt they would keep us competitive (s.l.), but not at the top. for that we need lowe, perez, or sheets. that’s it, they are the only ones, unless mo can spring a trade, that will actually upgrade. even if carp comes back ok, we need one of those three or equivalent to duke it out with the cubbies, philles, and mets.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jan 4, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whose #3?
Remember when Yadi and Gary Bennett were both injured and we had to go out and get Kelly Stinnett? We had some guy named Espisito as back up and he was only hitting .200 at AAA. Isn’t Anderson a good low cost #3??? Can’t we let the kid get some AB’s at AAA and see what happens?
by bigmotors on Jan 3, 2009 6:06 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

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