Inspecting the unexpected
by DanUpBaby on Jan 19, 2009 8:29 AM EST
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PrintJust getting settled in, here at VEB HQ. Hope my Friday fill-in was adequate—after I call the temp agency I don't really have a lot of input, you know.
Meanwhile, our Hated Nemeses made a rare (and welcome) mid-January deal, sending longtime real-fan shibboleth Felix Pie to the Orioles for Garrett Olson and a minor league reliever. Olson's not half as bad as he looked last year, but this is a weird deal for a team whose current fleet-footed centerfielder was, this time last year, their lineup-anchoring rightfielder.
Pie is just an Anthony Reyes prospect. He's never quite gotten a clear shot in center; he's not good enough to pull down the relief ace or big bat at the trade deadline, so he didn't get the chance to Just Play on a team like the Pirates when he found himself blocked; and, most importantly, he sucked it up in his first trips through the bigs. The Orioles have put together quite a defensive outfield—Pie might not hit enough to stick at left for a contending team, but when he's pushed there by Nick Markakis and Adam Jones the result is a very special situation for fly-ball pitchers.
I just don't see this one for the Cubs. The rumor is that this is step one toward Jim Hendry digging the Undead Jake Peavy Trade back up, but I'm not sure what subdividing Felix Pie into two lesser prospects does to grease those skids.
#
Interesting bit on Derrick Goold's blog about Chris Duncan. There's not much to it, I guess, but the simple fact that it's there—that the Winter Warm-Up is cause enough to get Chris Duncan out of his titanium cocoon—is itself interesting.
It got me thinking about unexpected sources of production, which is good because this is as convenient a time as any to do that; before now we've been expecting other sources of production, in the form of fantasy trades and free agent signings, and come February production will be expected from everyone—at the start of Spring Training everybody's healthy, everybody's ready to Go Out There And Have Their Best Year Ever, everybody's gained fifty pounds of muscle and cut seconds off the relevant dash times. But in January you can think about the guys who have not yet begun to make their cases.
The ideal Unexpected Production guy is, like Robo-Dunc, coming off a season that was not only bad but also difficult to watch; he can't just suffer, he must suffer in such a way that the day-to-day fan is more or less okay with divesting himself of the player's upside, so long as he doesn't need to watch him founder any longer. Chris Carpenter, who frustrated Blue Jays fans for years, is the angel on this concept's shoulder; Mark Mulder is the devil. But on a fandom level they're all devils, all the way down. They demand your attention, year after year, and they keep faltering, for the most part, but that small minority that succeeds—oftentimes in a different uniform—keeps you from averting your eyes.
That generalization, combined with my fill-in's excellent post last week, led me to take a look at Unexpected Production types from years past, and I've picked one to talk about. This is my Unexpected Production player, and it is with a deep and abiding reluctance that I laud him this morning. I hope you guys can find a similar place in the far recesses of your baseball psyche to delve into in the comments.
My choice—my fate, for I surely would not choose him—is 2004 Tony Womack. It is no major overstatement to say that my distaste for Tony Womack was the glue that held together my first year as a full-time blogger. For someone a year removed from his first dose of sabermetric ideas, awash in the sheer, radiating superiority of New Ways of Thinking like considering a player's on-base percentage, watching the Cardinals sign and commit to Tony Womack at second base was like discovering gravity and watching your best friend leap off the leaning tower with feathers glued to his tunic.
But however he did it, Womack managed to get all the way through 2004 while keeping one of the great small-scale fluke seasons of all time alive. To recap, Tony Womack was:
- a marginal middle infielder
- pushing 35
- coming off a season where his OPS+ was 40,
- had never really crested past "adequate" with the bat in his entire career, and, finally,
- was coming off Tommy John surgery.
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Things to check off my "will be shocked if I ever see this on a sports blog" list.
The term shibboleth.
I’m guessing you’re either pretty knowledgeable about the Bible or you’ve done some study of the poet Rita Dove. Or perhaps you’re way further down the rabbit hole on the linguistics side of an English degree than I ever got.
One way or another, I appreciate the term “real-fan shibboleth”
Nicely done.
Bad back
Was it game 7 of the 2004 NLCS when Womack was playing with a bad back? I remember he ran forever to snag a ball near the foul line, and then hobbled back to the infield—it was a gritty performance.
And I’m glad he turned his unexpected performance as a Cardinal into a nice paycheck from the Yankees as he headed into retirement…..
Yes, he had back spasms
I recall either McCarver or some other dullard saying “I wish my back hurt that good” after he drilled a stand up double off of Clemens.
by cloistermaximus on Jan 19, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Pie isn't like Reyes
Reyes was decent and showed flashes of brillance.
Pie kills AAA, but never showed signs of even being a decent hitter in the majors. He had zero willingness to shorten his swing.
The unexpected...
At first I expected this post to be a “guess which nobody will make a significant contribution this year” thread…so, I’m gonna go that way. I’m not going to pick a as yet unsigned free agent like Womack was, or a comeback year from an already signed veteran (Kennedy?). I’m picking Brian Barden…who, for all intents and purposes, is just as likely to not see ANY major league time as he is to make a major contribution. I see Kennedy either getting hurt, playing poorly, or pissing TLR off thus leaving a lot of playing time up for grabs. Ryan would be the “heir apparent” and will probably get a chance before Barden, but I just don’t have as much confidence in Brendan. I think Barden has the ability to be an average major league second baseman, and I’m hoping he can add some stability to that position for a handful of years.
Second runner up…Freese. I just don’t want to jinx Glaus.
Sometimes I wonder,
"Why is that frisbee getting bigger?"
...and then it hits me!!
Ha!
…he was a bad shortstop who had to move to second base because he could have outrun his own throws to first.
Hilarious. Well said, DanUp.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 19, 2009 10:50 AM EST reply actions
Duncan, Ankiel, et al
You can project us for 86 wins all you want, but here is the Oct 09 story
The St Louis Cardinals are world champions. They got significant help in 09 from many unexpected sources. Chris Duncan recovered from his neck surgery and hit 40 HR. Rick Ankiel saw a shrink in the winter months and become Mr. Clutch down the stretch. Jason Motte learned two new pitches and was unhittable in the set up role. Perez worked on his control in the off season and was the only National League closer without a loss. Chris Carpenter recovered nicely from his injuries, and although he pitched well, he struggled to retain his staff ace status because McClellan had a breakout sophmore season, and Wellemyer proved he was the real deal.
Will all this happen? No, but some of it will. As a fan, that is what keeps me going.
by Remember Kenny B on Jan 19, 2009 11:08 AM EST reply actions
You had me
until Wellemeyer proves to be the real deal.
I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I'm trying to not be selfish about it, but to use it, OK? Jealousy will get you nowhere!
no faith
in Wellemeyer?
Wellemeyer had the best walk rate of his career last year.
I worry that he may have had a nice but unrepeatable season.
I thought the same about Looper going into last season...
Granted Looper wasn’t that great in ‘07 but he did prove himself as being able to start, and improved last season. Here’s hoping for a repeat performance by Welley or at least something acceptable. If he can’t come close to repeating the cards have a big problem on their hands
I hate winter!!!!
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 19, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
No, sorry
i’m surprised it hasn’t gotten more ink, he’s probably going to regress significantly. Look at how his 2008 was put together.
BABIP .264, despite a .311 xbabip
Strand Rate of 77%, which is related to average against, to put into context ranks directly behind Tim Lincecum, CC sabathia and John Lester.
FIP of 4.49
TRA+ 93
Set a career low in walk rate, which may or may not be sustainable, he has no track record of doing anything like this.
I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I'm trying to not be selfish about it, but to use it, OK? Jealousy will get you nowhere!
welly has
a 255 IP track record with stl, before then, his track record is gone for me. if the coaching staff can take a player and change his approach to produce better results, i believe it’s sustainable as longer as that player continues adhering to the positive changes.
his 112 IP spike from 07 to 08 is a larger concern that returning to his pre-duncan production. if he regresses, i don’t expect it to be significant, with good health.
by ball in play on Jan 19, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
i understood
this type of doubt in welly last offseason, now i don’t, after 43 GS.
by ball in play on Jan 19, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
This still
…doesn’t explain how he pulled off a .273 BABIP. That’s luck, pure and simple. The pitcher can’t do a darn thing once the ball leaves his hands other than fielding balls hit in his region.
He also had a really high strand rate, which really isn’t a skill either, per se.
I can buy an improved BB rate as an improvement…but BABIP and strand rate aren’t really based on any sort of improvement. That’s just how it is.
I think Wellemeyer is going to take a hit this season, and maybe not by pitching any worse…just having the fates of baseball catch up to him.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 19, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
He will likely take a hit
but as a major league starter he has an ERA of 3.70 in 241 innings. I’m not saying he’ll keep that up, but I don’t think a 4.00ish ERA is out of the question.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 19, 2009 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
He won't keep that up
he’ll do better. Wellemeyer: 3.50 ERA for 2009. Book it.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 20, 2009 1:32 AM EST up reply actions
ratio's
seem to be consistent for welly and wainwright. could be you’re not used to seeing him preform at this level.
2008 BAA, wnwrt .247 / welly .248…..babip, wnwrt .281 / welly .273…..lob%, wnwrt 76.0 / welly 76.9
by ball in play on Jan 21, 2009 8:54 AM EST up reply actions
Those numbers
are from last season, under the direction of Duncan.
I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I'm trying to not be selfish about it, but to use it, OK? Jealousy will get you nowhere!
could someone please explain
FIP and TRA+ for the slow kids like me?
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
NO Garland, NO Wolf, NO Looper!
by jealousblues on Jan 19, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
sure
FIP: Fielding Independent Pitching, a measure of all those things for which a pitcher is specifically responsible. The formula is (HR*13+(BB+HBP-IBB)*3-K*2)/IP, plus a league-specific factor (usually around 3.2) to round out the number to an equivalent ERA number. FIP helps you understand how well a pitcher pitched, regardless of how well his fielders fielded. FIP was invented by Tangotiger.
That’s from the THT Glossary, Here’s a great article on Beyond the Boxscore that explains tRA
I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I'm trying to not be selfish about it, but to use it, OK? Jealousy will get you nowhere!
I will try the short way
FIP is measure a pitcher’s effectiveness based only on plays that do not involve fielders. Here is the formula for it made by Tom Tango
tRA+ is another way to measure players without the use of fielders. So if you have bad fielders it won’t skew your numbers poorly. the + just represents in how it relates to the league so tRA+ 100 would be league average while tRA+ would be 110 10% above league average
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 19, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
Toddius
I’m really enjoying your blog. I’m sure it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to continue but the content is excellent.
I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I'm trying to not be selfish about it, but to use it, OK? Jealousy will get you nowhere!
Thank you
very much, Dave. I appreciate the feedback.
That is a heck of a trade for the Orioles.
Pie could definitely help their outfiled, and now their OF will be Markakis, Adam Jones, and Pie — they have potential to have quite a talented, young outfield.
Pie sucked his first year in the majors, but he showed major signs of improvement last year, and who knows what he can do with regular playing time. The O’s are on an infinite cycle of rebuilding, but if they can keep snagging young talent like this, they may be able to pull off a .500 season.
On with the (good) youth movement!
how sweet would it be...
If 40+ years from now orioles fan refer to the infamous Pie for Olson deal, the way we remember brock for broglio
I hate winter!!!!
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 19, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Markakis signed 6 yr extension
Adam Jones in center, Pie in left, Markakis in right. Under club control for five seasons. Now all they need is an infield and three starters and they have a shot at breaking .500
Help is on the way for a couple of those areas
Wieters will add a stud bat in the middle of their lineup this season at the catcher position. If Huff can repeat his season as a 1B they could go out and get somebody like Dunn to DH full time.
They have some young pitching in the minor leagues in Matusz, Tillman, Arrieta, Erbe, and Britton. Obviously they won’t all pan out, but if a couple of them do they might have a decent starting staff in 2009 – 2010 with Guthrie and one good free agent (Lackey?).
Their real problem is the infield. They have Brian Roberts, who they really should be trading, since he isn’t going to be a useful player by the time they are ready to contend again. Other than that they have no promising second base, short stop, or third base prospects in the pipeline, and, as all of us Cardinal fans know, those are the hardest positions to find effective free agents at and also the hardest to predict when drafting. Wieters may end up moving to 3B, and that would be a smart move if his bat is as good as advertised, but that still doesn’t solve many problems and creates another hole for them to fill.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I don't necessarily agree with that
The Red Sox are fairly well set in the infield if Lowrie can hold down the SS position, since Pedroia and Youkilis are both good, young players. If he can’t then they have an aging 3B who didn’t look good even when he was healthy last year and a hole to fill at SS. They could move Youkilis to third, but he’s less of a defensive liability at 1B, and since they didn’t get Teixeira there’s no need to move him.
The Yankees have the best infield in baseball right now, although Jeter has been showing signs of slowing down the past couple of years and is about one half step from being a total defensive liability. I think that the plan may be to move him to second base in the next couple of years and go after a veteran Free Agent SS since they don’t have one in the current system.
The Rays are set at 3B for the foreseeable future, but they have serious questions at 2B and SS as soon as next season, and possibly in the future. I think this may be why they haven’t entertained offers for Zobrist and Brignac — they may be the middle infield of the future.
I think all those teams are better off than the current Orioles are, but part of the reason for that is high priced veterans (Yankees), young, unproven players (Rays), and a couple of questionable position moves (Sox). I think with the amount of money and the farm system that the other teams have they will be able to recover quicker than the Orioles will if things go bad, but the Orioles are one good signing away from having a respectable middle infield, so pitching really should be their prime area of concern — which makes the deal they made with the Cubs more inexplicable, unless they don’t think that Olsen is as good as he was in 2008.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Wording problem
The Rays, Yankees and Red Sox problems are a whole lot less than the Orioles and their strengths are significantly strength-yer—-unless Wieters really is a .950 OPS catcher.
Not afraid to nitpick
Potential unexpected contributors abound on the team.
I do think Dunc has the ability to hit 40 HR a year if all the cards fall right. That looks increasingly improbable every year that goes by without him doing it, but I still see it.
Mather, Barden, Thurston all seem like guys who might stun us with defensive and offensive contributions.
I also see Ostlund as a challenger to fight his way through a sea of left-handed mediocrity and to really contribute to the bullpen.
Last, I want to suggest Abraham Nunez as the runner-up to Mr. Womack in the unexpected contribution department.
Per AP -- Dunc signs one year for $850K and Wellemeyer for $4.05M.
Dunc comes in under some seven-figure projections (likely an injury issue). Welly seems about right.
MLBtraderumors.com
i was on this site a few days ago and wanted to point out how dumb yankess fans really are. Im not one to ridicule others, but these people were way out of line. The article was about MO incquiring about Cano. Cashman was reported to have countered with of Cano for Waino. ALL of the yank me off fans were commenting on how this would be a horrible trade because wainwright is not that good. One guy even pointed out that since he makes less than 5 mil he cant be good. I dont know if he was serious about that comment, but after reading a few of them I became very upset with how dumb some people can be. Seriously, no one thought waino was good enough for cano. If that trade happened I would seriosly question my loyalty to the cardinals. Anyways, I thought I would just point out how lucky we are to have a great fan base with knowledgable people. If you want to entertain yourself go to mlbtraderumors.com and read all the comments. Some of the yanks fans even go into trade ideas of cano and hughes for Albert. Truly hilarious if you have time to read non-sense.
just a bit of advice...
stay out of the comment sections on that site, you will find that some fans from every city are complete idiots and saint louis is no exception
I hate winter!!!!
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 19, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
the comments on that site are atrocious.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
Waino may not be good enough for some Yankee fans
But he is good enough to strike out the last batters of the NLCS and WS.
You can keep your decent hitting second baseman New York. We’ll keep our ace with the Ring.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Jan 19, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
and hopefully Royce Ring
will be our good luck charm to another one in ’09!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 19, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
ugh...
now i had to go and read for myself…the idiocy is shocking…even for mlbtr.com
I hate winter!!!!
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 19, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
I actually read those comment
I got into a arguement with a yanks fan over batting average not making someone a good hitter.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 19, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
i have a policy not to frequent any site run by a flub fan,
it just makes good sense.
as a Yankee fan, i can tell you those views do not represent most of the fan base. sure they don’t know as much as we here at VEB, but they do know their baseball.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Rich Harden
shoulder tear.
Going to rehab it instead of surgery.
If the Cardinals win the Super Bowl this year, the Cubs will be the only team with over 60 years of Championship ineptitude in North American sports.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 19, 2009 1:55 PM EST reply actions
Who's next in line...
after the Cardinals? The Lions have gotta be close to that.
Sometimes I wonder,
"Why is that frisbee getting bigger?"
...and then it hits me!!
Cleveland Indians, I believe
At least, if we’re discussing all sports
The Lions have never even been to the Super Bowl, so they don’t even have a streak.
The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs
by jd is legend on Jan 19, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
But the Lions
Did win three World Championships back in the 1950’s (last one 1957) before the AFL was even a twinkle in anyone’s eye. So they do have a streak, it’s just not as long as the Cardinals, who haven’t won anything since they were still the Chicago Cardinals.
I believe the Indians would be next in line from the graphic I saw the other day…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I stand corrected
Although, my assertion that the Lions have never been to the Super Bowl is correct, since the Super Bowl started in the 60s between the AFL and NFL champs. I just didn’t realize they won an NFL title before the Super Bowl era.
The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs
by jd is legend on Jan 19, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
They've at least BEEN to a World Series in that time though
The Cubs haven’t even won a NL Pennant since 1945. The Bears have had more Championship teams play at Wrigley (8) than that Cubs have Pennant winners (6) at Wrigley.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I like that "over"
comment, as the Indians are at exactly 60 years of ineptitude. Assume they don’t win it this year, and you’ll have to revise that number. *61?
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 19, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
whoops
Didn’t look further down. Should know better by now.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 19, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Joe Thurston
I think Thurston will make the team with a strong spring AND if he proves he can man SS. He is left handed which doesn’t really help his case on 2B side but helps with SS. He had a career year last year and I think this will be his peak year. Even if that means his peak year will be one year as an above average utility man.
What do you guys think of Duncan’s new nickname as the Six Million dollar man or Steve Austin?
“Chris Duncan, ball player. A man barely walking. Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world’s first bionic man. Chris Duncan will be that man. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster.”
Stat Whore
F U
Steve Austin, astronaut. A man barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world’s first bionic man. Steve Austin will be that man. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 19, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
A career year from Duncan
and he might be a six million dollar man. Right now he’s only the eight hundred fifty thousand dollar man and that doesn’t roll off the tongue very well.
If he doesn’t hit, we can start calling him Jaime Sommers
maybe the $850,000 man?
Steve Austin works fine too
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 19, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
$850K will still buy a lot of skoal
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
by adiueordie on Jan 19, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
LOL!
I especially like the part at the bottom where he’s reaching for a tin!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 19, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
ha!
that ad reminds me of a pice on the dailyredbird a while back that had a fake clubhouse conversation including duncan asking where his “tobacco burrito” was.
by krippledmaster on Jan 19, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
wasn't that on insidestl.com during the spring of 2006?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
In August of '06
after yet another long losing string and my proverbial dam had burst. I’d link it up, but the proprietor of that site has taken the page (and all pages from that year) down for whatever reasons.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
that was honestly one of the funniest things i have ever read
it’s probably not Mckernan’s fault it’s gone. when ITX made insidestl 2.0, they fubared up so many things, i’m willing to bet they lost it. it’s too bad, that was brilliant dude. it really was.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
its cool though
because now they have the armpit of cardinals blogdome cards diaspora‘s "how did they let miles go for chump change, why didn’t they sign fuentes, what a cheap team, i hate the cardinals, la russa, de witt, mozeliak and most of all sabermetrics" athooks, supposed cardinals fan, writing for them.
its like kevin slaten without the cleverness. or credibility.
who uses duff as a source, anyway?
i thought the guy was joking the first few times i read his stuff, honestly. turns out he’s the joke.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
Wow
I just went over and checked it out myself, and I have to agree. Ironically enough, his post this morning briefly discusses Slaten, and he actually defends him because he (paraphrasing here): at least gave you something to talk about. Well, a baboon throwing feces gives you something to talk about, but I’m not sure that makes it a good radio personality. (No? Too similar a comparison?)
by Ray Lankford on Jan 20, 2009 8:43 AM EST up reply actions
meh
i always thought the cd was pretty funny, at least before it got nannyfiltered. It may have degenerated, though, and I can never remember to check it from home.
still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.
cd was alright
we all knew better.
it was some retard who was funny. now he has a much larger forum. and that makes me nervous.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
What the heck
is he doing to the trophy????
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 19, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
haha
that face is unbelievable. We gotta keep him just for that
by vivaelpujols on Jan 19, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
Here is a funny story about his brother
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 19, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
I seem to recall some fairly heated (but respectful) discussion about that incident
here at VEB.
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 19, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
I seem to recall
Lboros banning a fellow for his heated discussion.
I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I'm trying to not be selfish about it, but to use it, OK? Jealousy will get you nowhere!
I didn't remember any banning. Maybe it wasn't so respectful after all.
I guess I’m just repressing the more painful VEB memories….
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 19, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
Don’t remember that.
Found the Thread though
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 19, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
But did you find this
Thread? Champ later showed his own way out I’m not sure why this particular discussion stuck with me so well, it went on for several days, but the highlight was how random the thread he chose to make his final stand on.
Or maybe it was larry’s simple response. Looking back it still makes me laugh.
"champion, does this mean
we’re not friends anymore?"
I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I'm trying to not be selfish about it, but to use it, OK? Jealousy will get you nowhere!
Ah, that was good stuff - Champ's final stand
It’s hard to believe he really thought he had a legitimate point, but who knows? People can convince themselves of all sorts of kooky stuff when they get worked up like that. I remember that post from Larry, and it still makes me chuckle too.
And the final threat in Champ’s last post – “I will no longer read visit this website and I will do what I can to make sure you are removed from SB Nation for the 2008 season.” That certainly worked out well for him. Or maybe it just worked out well for everyone else at VEB.
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 19, 2009 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
I should say it all came back to me when I re-read the thread
Obviously I didn’t remember it at first, since I had somehow managed to convince myself that the whole discussion had been “respectful.”
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 19, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
After reading that discussion
I am going to slow walk out of this one
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 19, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Nobody ----> Somebody 2009
Joe Thurston gets my vote for 2 reasons:
- He’s almost sure to get an opportunity to win the second base job in spring training, and will probably start the season as the everyday AAA second baseman if he doesn’t make the big club
- I think he fits the profile of a guy that Tony likes to have around — hustles everywhere, can play three infield positions (although he dosn’t have much experience at SS), and looks to have decent gap power.
My only worry is that if Thurston makes the team out of spring training that Tony will also carry Ryan because of the SS problem, giving the team 4 MI’s on the roster again when our outfield bats are much, much better off of the bench and more talented overall.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Just imagine....
if this mather at 2B plan works out….maybe we could carry just 2 MIF? Kennedy playing short to spell Greene
I hate winter!!!!
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jan 19, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Mather isn't going to stick there
He just isn’t. He might be a guy who plays there in a pinch, but he’s never going to be a regular there.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
He could get a Miles like role (before last year), GS-7th and then Ryan/Thurston takes over.
I actually talked about the defensive liability part of this in reply to you on the Hot Stove thread, so I won’t break it all down here. I don’t think Mather will get any look at all if he’s worse than Miles, but if he isn’t he could be a day off option.
His height sure screams no MI, but he is fairly mobile
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 19, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Kennedy
has improved his image after ‘07 with a brilliant defensive year. But there’s no chance Kennedy can play SS. He’s just not built for it at all.
Which means Ryan or Thurston will be needed for SS backup, Ryan can play there, not too sure about Thurston.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 19, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
maybe
he could be a more versitile Speez or our version of DeRosa
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
NO Garland, NO Wolf, NO Looper!
by jealousblues on Jan 20, 2009 2:57 AM EST up reply actions
or john mabry 04-05
minus about seven years age.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
Is Thurston competing with Ryan specifically, or do you think he has a chance to take Kennedy’s job as well? I mean, context of Kennedy’s situation included.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 19, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
I think he has a chance to start at 2B
With a good spring I can see him taking Kennedy’s job. LaRussa has openly said that the second base job is up for grabs, as much as that would make Adam Kennedy want to throw his vinyl lawn furniture around.
Thurston was once a top prospect in the Dodgers system, so the potential is there for him to finally have a breakout season. I’m not saying that’s going to actually happen, but the exercise was to pick a rags-to-riches story for 2009 — I think he’s got as much potential to do that as anyone.
I think that Ryan, Thurston, and Kennedy will compete to start at second base, and the runner up for that battle will be the utility guy. Kennedy will be one or the other, so I guess you could say that Thurston will be competing with Ryan.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
nice
I just pictured Kennedy doing that… hopefully he doesn’t throw out his back!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 19, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks, must admit that I didn’t know much about Thurston outside of the fact that he’s essentially bumping Hoff (and I’m not exactly upset about that personally). After work I’ll read up online and check him out.
You can tell in interviews that Kennedy is being real tender footed on what he says. I’m glad Tony has him coming to ST expecting to play for his job, especially with Miles leaving.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 19, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
Mine's Mather
He’s setting up to get plenty of AB the way things are looking..
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 19, 2009 5:03 PM EST reply actions
No doubt
Mark my words, Tony will have him at three different positions in the same game sometime this season. I still can’t see 6-4 at second, Oquendo is going to have to turn into his shadow the moment he gets to Spring Training.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Jan 19, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
'09
is that season for Mather. it’s make or break time. I think he’ll thrive (though I’m not a huge believer in the 2b concept. OF and IF corners for me, thanks)
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 19, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
I say Mather or Barton
perhaps even Duncan
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 19, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think that Barton will even be on the ML team opening day unless Dunc can’t go. With 6 OF as it stands (Ank, Ras, Dunc, Luddy, Mather, Skip).
I don’t mind the glut if Mather is getting at bats in the MI corners this year as well. If Dunc is on the Opening Day roster then he should be a great bench option/1B filler.
Barton looks to be a “break in case of DL”. (Hell, Memphis will have glut as well…)
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 19, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
you're probably right
but do you think it’s possible that Skip gets beat out in ST?
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 19, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
wow, I don’t know. I think it would have to take a perfect storm to do so.
1.) I’m not sure on his option status, does he have any left?
2.) Skip will have to look horrid (and his lefty splits get even worse)
3.) Barton would have to do last ST +
i think Skip is “on the team if with the org”, but I could be wrong.
The first day of the offseason I said I would have been thrilled with trading Skip for a AA LHP with upside (we need LHP, Skip won’t net us anything above AA and teams aren’t moving them either) I caught some flack for that but I still wish we had a chance to have a trade like that.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 19, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
If we didn't have so many OFer's
I think a platoon of Skip/Barton would be one hella of leadoff spot.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 19, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
yes
and ankiel and mather could platoon also.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 19, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
I bet one of them gets hurt or traded in Spring Training
I think a lot of people want to see if these guys are healthy or not before trading for them
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 19, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
but Skip has a clean bill of health, why doesn’t anyone want him!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 19, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
Pie isn't even close to being Reyes...
Reyes pretty much dominated in the minors. Pie was essentially a Skip Schumaker with more power in the minors.
In 7 years, he put up a line of .299/.353/.470
Compared to Skip’s 7 years of .290 /353 /385
Okay, he’s 4 years younger than Skip. Now compare him, to say Brian Barton, who has hit .314/.413/.475 in the minors. Okay, again, Barton was older. But much better numbers.
But back to Reyes, he had a K:BB ratio of over 4:1 and a WHIP under 1.10. The guy was just a flat out stud down there.
Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)
oh yeah
Tony Womack, I always thought he was a good player
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 19, 2009 7:43 PM EST reply actions
I was at a Cards-Yankees game in 2005
and saw Womack limping around the concourse. He wasn’t playing that day.
Womack
Womack used to scare me every time he threw to first. It seemed like he’d always throw really high or offline or something…like the ball would just sail from time to time. He was a thoroughly adequate player that year for the BoB, while being a real dud in the preceding and following seasons.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 19, 2009 7:52 PM EST reply actions
Mather
Also, I don’t understand this idea that Mather can play second. I know, I know, people w/ the team said he’ll be working out there a little bit. I still think it’s crazy. I know he’s mobile and athletic and I’ll that jazz, but the dude is SIX-motherfletching-FOUR. Take a guy that tall who has never played 2nd before and make him a target on DP’s…yeah, sounds like a brilliant idea.
The simple fact of the matter is that they FO needs to deal Skip or Ankiel (or maybe both) and figure out a way to cut ties with Duncan (who def. isn’t going anywhere now, but really has no spot on this team right now) and have Mather play, gasp…OUTFIELD!!! After all, he’s an OUTFIELDER for Pete’s sakes! I see him as a completely adequate reserve OF’er now and maybe even something more in a few seasons…not some bizarro mega-tall utility player.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 19, 2009 7:56 PM EST reply actions
"...mobile and athletic and I'll that jazz?"
What the hell does that mean, me?
-1 you tool.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 19, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
I have to admit
I got a kick out of that. “-1 you tool”
The only thing I can say about Mather is that at least he played SS before. As long as he gets plenty of ABs I’ll be happy.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jan 19, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
I earned it
You gotta be fair, right?
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 19, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
well
they just paid Duncan $850,000 so there’s a spot for him, evidently. They are just trying to see if it’s possible for Mather to play there, why not give it a try… we all know Tony likes to play mad scientist with the lineups, so I suppose Mather could play quite a bit for a utility guy, not the worst idea considering the team is handcuffed with the OF situation until they make a trade. I’m with ya though, I really don’t want to see Duncan stealing playing time from legitimate outfielders, but so be it, especially if he hits well again.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 19, 2009 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
if he sucks at hitting still due to the injury
please just don’t push it!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 19, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
Considering the news regarding Duncan today, I guess he’s here one way or the other. He was so so so awful before being officially DL-ed that I’m willing to chalk that up to injury. However, at best he’s still just a platoon player with sub-par defensive skills. Ankiel, Ludwick, and Mather are all solid/potentially solid hitters who can field better, and Luddy and Mather aren’t the split-abominations that either Duncan or Skippy are. With Rasmus on the way, there is really no need to carry a one-trick pony like Duncan.
Don’t get me wrong…I really love watching him play when he’s going well. I just think that his approach (to hit the mother-loving pee out of the ball on every swing), the overall buffoonery of his game, and his massive chews make him an entertaining dude. However, this is a baseball team, not the circus.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 19, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
it all depends which Chris Duncan shows up
the most aggravating part will be if Mather and Baron, Rasmus, etc play better than Skip or Duncan, and Skip and Duncan end up getting the same amount or more playing time, that will be the time for me to get pissed.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 19, 2009 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
Duncan still has an option left on his contract I believe
If he doesn’t have a strong spring he could still spend some time in Memphis.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
I read somewhere recently that he was out of options
Not somewhere reputable, mind you — a blog comment or something. Anyone know where to check on these sorts of things?
he had one option left on his contract going in to the 08 season. he was briefly sent to memphis, but apparently the option wasn’t used because he spent less than twenty days there before being recalled. i remember mozeliak mentioning it during a pregame show on fsn.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
I know...
Why don’t they teach Mather to play 3B, and have Wallace learn to play left field? That would make as much sense (actually, maybe, a little more) as putting a pituitary freak at 2b.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 20, 2009 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
yeah. if ankiel can go from pitching to playing center and every infielder can play the corner outfield spots, and occasionally pitch, then it makes the most sense to put the “pituitary freak” who can’t play 2b at 3b and the sloth in lf. obviously, we’ll just move anderson or freese to 2b after that and stick skip at ss.
hell, let’s just rotate everyone like in a volleyball game. after every plate appearance all eight guys will swap gloves and move over one spot.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
now I've got this mental picture
of Ozzie trying to teach Pujols how to do flips. I have to say, it’d be funny watching him play shortstop. Once. The year after he retires.
"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill
OMG
too funny!
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 21, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
Someone (forgive me for not remembering who) asked about Escobar versus Andrus about a week ago and BA has a little comparison on them:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/ask-ba/2009/267453.html
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