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The Cubs Rotation: 3 Significant Questions

I know this isn't our usual topic of conversation here at VEB, but I think it is interesting and illuminating to take a closer look at our chief division rival: the hated Cubs. The Cubs are the favorite in the NL Central, and possessed a very good rotation last year; however, like many teams they do come into the season with some significant questions.

1.Will Carlos Zambrano be healthy?

Carlos Zambrano missed a number of starts last season; He pitched 120 innings with a 2.84 ERA in the first half and 68 innings with a 5.80 ERA in the second half. The cause? Shoulder soreness and later, rotator-cuff tendinitis and inflammation.Given our experiences with Mulder and Carpenter, we are intimately acquainted with the fact that shoulder injuries can be devastating to even the best pitchers. 
In an article for the Hardball Times, Carlos Gomez, the noted guru of pitching mechanics, notes in 2007 Zambrano seemed to be having shoulder issues:
"Zambrano has been asking for a lucrative contract extension. Considering his performance so far this year, his velocity loss and possible signs of arm trouble, the Cubs would be foolish to sign him to a long-term deal. Too many question marks there. I sincerely hope that what I'm seeing is not what I think I'm seeing."
Lo and behold, the very next season Zambrano goes down because of the shoulder.  A steady decline of strikeouts can be noted in the past three seasons, another indicator of arm/shoulder problems (the following is K/9):
     
  • 2006- 8.83
  • 2007- 7.36
  • 2008- 6.20
In his last 5 starts of the season, he pitched only 24.2 Innings, allowing 22 hits, 15 walks, and an ERA of 8.03. This is including the one good game he had in this stretch where he threw a complete game no-hitter; taking out that game, he threw a miniscule 15.2 innings in 4 starts and allowed 22 hits, 14 walks, and had 22 ER. Clearly he was not right in the entire second half, but his performance deteriorated as the half went on; this suggests a worsening condition.

Could Zambrano bounce back and be fine next season? Yes.

Will he?

It's impossible to know, but if I were a betting man I wouldn't bet on Zambrano pitching a full season next year. Shoulder injuries are simply too pervasive to be confident about his continuing success, which leads us into our next question:


2. Will Rich Harden Be healthy either?


Rich Harden is as good as anyone when healthy, but we all know the story about him; he has pitched only 219 innings in the past three seasons combined.

We know how injury prone he is, and then this comes out, courtesy of the Chicago Sun Times:

"But sources also confirmed Saturday that Harden has a tear in the joint, just severe enough that some players might seek surgery but slight enough to be in a range often treated effectively with a strengthening program, therapy and a well- managed work schedule.

That's more than the Cubs let on last fall, even after the revelation that Harden had a cortisone shot for rotator [cuff] tendinitis."


His peripherals all looked very good last season and showed no sign of decline, but how can anyone be confident that an injury that can sideline any pitcher won't sideline the king of the DL?

Much like Zambrano, there is no way to know how much this will affect him. I have to ask though: realistically, is anyone optimistic?
I wouldn't bet on Harden pitching a full season, either.

(As a sidenote, as you probably noticed, Harden was initially diagnosed with rotator-cuff tendinitis, the same condition that Zambrano was diagnosed with last season. This can often lead to a tear, as it did with Harden. A glimpse into Zambrano's future?)


3. How good will Ryan Dempster be?

Ryan Dempster pitched 5 seasons as a starter before last season. He posted ERA's of 4.71, 3.66, 4.94, 5.38, and 6.54. His career ERA is 4.55 in 1425 IP, and his career FIP is 4.41. Last season he had a 2.96 ERA, and a 3.41 FIP. As you can see, 2008 was by far his best season.

 His peripherals also suggest that he had a great year that is outside his career norms:

                    2008             Career
K/9               8.14                7.54
BB/9            3.31                4.47
HR/9            0.61               0.96
BABIP         .288                .309      (20.1 LD% in 2008)
HR/FB         7.7%              9.9%

Every stat is better than his career numbers by a significant margin. Of special note to me are the drops in his walk and HR rates.

32 year-old mediocre starters that were converted into relievers and back into starters dont often turn into perennial Cy Young contenders. Given his peripherals and career numbers, all signs point to this being a career year for Dempster. I wouldn't expect him to continue at that level, and there's a good chance he regresses significantly.

(Seems that the Cubs disagree, as they fell into the Lohse trap: they awarded Dempster a 4-year, $51 Million contract for his great season. )


Conclusion


With Zambrano and Harden's  shoulder issues, it's entirely possible that the Cubs will be without their 1 and 2 pitchers for a significant chunk, maybe most, of the season. Considering that their number 3 is due to regress quite a bit, their pitching situation doesn't look quite as rosy as some portray it. Ted Lilly is a good bet to be a solid innings-eater type, but even he has had mediocre FIP's the past couple seasons.

 

What does everyone think about the Cubs' rotation this year?

0 recs  |  Comment 37 comments

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Rich Hill and Sean Marshall

I think both those guys provide excellent depth. They are both lefties in there late 20’s who have had moderate success (and failure) in the bigs, but have pretty good upsides. I’m betting that one of those guys breaks out this year.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 18, 2009 10:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hill is out of options if I'm not mistaken

He had continuing problems in Winter League. If Hendry is cooking up a trade for Peavy, maybe he’ll be part of that. If not, he’ll go somewhere other than Chicago.

by ol Pete on Jan 18, 2009 10:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Could we get Hill?

If he is out of options and the Cubs don’t plan to use him this year than we could get him for next to nothing. I think Hill could be really good for us as the 5 starter with upside.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 18, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm assuming that's sarcasm.

A teenage boy with a sprit inside
Of a Samurai warrior who long ago died.
Now he's O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
O....O....O....O Oshikuru!
My oh My he's a demon Samurai
Who's the guy who had to die.......Oshikuru!

by Tackle Box on Jan 19, 2009 2:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Even though Hill was surrendering alot of walks early in 2008.

I really don’t think he was doing that poorly. The rest of his " stuff" was all there, and his ERA was only 4.12 when he was sent to “figure things out.” Look, he walked 18 in 19 innings over 5 games started. OK, that sucks. But still he had a ton more upside than someone like Piniero or Chad Gaudin when he was sent away.

But I wonder if the humiliating demotion hurt his ego and contributed to his continuing floundering in the minor leagues for the rest of 2008. I thought Pinella was far too hasty to relieve him of his starting duties. His velocity and breaking pitches were still there, so it might have been better to send him to the bullpen and let him work on his command pitching in garbage time. I wasn’t there; I can only guess, but I would have not been so quick to pull the plug on Hill.

Obviously the chances of acquiring Hill in an inter-division trade are approximately zero, so Hill might reemerge with Baltimore or Texas. I would love it if Hill could compete with Piniero for the 5th spot in the rotation next year. Despite the accolades the Cardinal farm system has been receiving recently, I think a big flaw is that the system is not producing any of those surefire future aces like other systems are doing. The Cardinals future version of Lincecum, Billingsley, Price, Kazmir, Hamels, or Volquez does not seem to be in the system right now. Our system did acquire Wainwright and he could become an ace. But Reyes didn’t pan out and we were hustled for Haren by Billy Beane.

Therefore the key in 2009 is duplicating last year’s Hamilton/Volquez trade by trading Ankiel or Ludwick to some club for the next Edinson Volquez. Because of the glut of OFs, the Cards might not return with equal value, but a guy like Radhames Liz, Nick Adenhart, Ian Kennedy, or Matt Harrison might surprise and have a breakout next year. I am not advocating specifically any of these pitchers, but the farm system needs a couple more starting pitcher prospects.

by Czechguardsman on Jan 19, 2009 3:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw him at Iowa in 2006 and again last year

He looked like a completely different pitcher.

He dominated hitters in 2006 in 15 starts before being called up. Good mid-90’s fastball with an excellent curve to go with it and he could locate both pitches. He walked 21 guys in 100 innings.

Conversely, in 2008 he walked 28 guys in 26 innings. He walked 4 straight guys in the 1st inning in one of his starts and got BOOED OFF THE FIELD AT AAA!!! No zip on his fastball — consistently clocking in at 85-88 MPH. No command of his breaking pitches at all. He’s either hurt physically or has a mental block similar to what Ankiel went through as a pitcher.

I really don’t want anything to do with him unless he gets put on irrevocable waivers and we can get him for next to nothing. My gut tells me he’s finished.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 19, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Trading for Peavy will be harder with Pie and Marquis both moved.

Rich Hill, Sean Marshall, Garrett Olson, Jeff Samardzija, and Chad Gaudin give the Cubs plenty of depth.

Zambrano’s poor conditioning, shoulder problems, and declining K rate could be a warning of future trouble, but he will probably rebound. Most of his peripherals have stayed constant over the last three years. I just wonder about the fact that he picked up 11 fewer decisions in 2008 than in 2007; a sign that he was not working as deeply into games. Shoulder issues don’t bode as well for the future as elbow problems.

I think you can count on Rich Harden missing time, with all of the health problems he’s had in Oakland. He missed about 2.5 years of playing time in 4 years. The A’s seem to ride their prospect pitchers hard and Harden is not a big guy so he has to generate velocity with tork and arm action. I don’t see him staying healthy and effective for much longer than a few years, though I could be wrong. Regardless, look at the problems Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder have had staying healthy since the A’s dumped them and ran. Harden doesn’t work deep in to games, a fact which will overexpose the Cubs bullpen.

Dempster will be good again next year but there could be a bit of a regression. I think that Zambrano needs to get back in the gym and off the computer and take his conditioning more seriously. He seemed flabby last year and he had man-boobs. Also, teams seemed to figure him out and swing at that first-pitch fastball.

Roy Oswalt was having similar problems to Zambrano in 2007 such as a declining K rate, but after a poor start in 2008, he rebounded in the 2nd half. Even if Zambrano or Harden or someone else in the Cubs rotation go down, the depth will probably be there to cover it, and barring all else, they’ll just make a trade.

I think the Cubs shot themselves in the foot by trading DeRosa and signing Bradley. I bet Bradley will hit no more than 11 HRs for them next year. De Rosa was the only Cub who hit in the postseason last year and he was moved for minor league ciphers. Stupid.

by Czechguardsman on Jan 18, 2009 10:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Oswalt is a much better pitcher than Zambrano

He has great command so the lack of K’s wouldn’t be so devastating. If Zambrano starts losing his nastiness than he becomes a glorified Chin Ming Wang,

by vivaelpujols on Jan 18, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Derek Lowe was a medicore starter that was converted into a reliever

and then back to a starter. I guess he wasn’t a prerennial cy contender, but he never exactly collapsed and became horrible, either.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 18, 2009 11:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ryan Dempster and Derek Lowe

is not an accurate comparison.

Lowe was never a “mediocre starter” at all; he was a starter/closer for his first 4 seasons, putting up ERA’s of 4.02, 2.63, 2.56, and 3.53 (after his rookie year). When he was moved to a full-time starter role, he had pitched 415.1 innings for the Red Sox with a 3.22 ERA (he was also 29)
He got his first full season starting in 2002 and promptly pitched 219.2 innings with a 2.58 ERA. Since his rookie year, he hasn’t once put up a FIP higher than 4.26, and only 3 seasons that were 4 or above. He has a career ERA of 3.75 and a career FIP of 3.76. Definitely not mediocre. As soon as he got a chance to pitch full time, he shined.

Dempster, on the other hand, was quite mediocre for quite some time. He was a starter immediately after his rookie year, pitching 147 innings with a 4.71 ERA. His FIP was even worse at 5.30. His next three seasons he had ERA’s of 3.66, 4.94 and 5.38. After pitching some for the Reds he underwent Tommy John surgery and started pitching relief for the Cubs. When he was converted to relief, he had pitched 909 innings a starter with a 4.89 ERA; a pretty good sample size to say he just wasn’t a very good starter. He did alright with the Cubs as a reliever for a few years, and then had a sensational season at age 32 that was well out of his career norms. In his 5 years starting before 2008, his lowest FIP was 4.36. His career ERA is 4.55, FIP 4.41.

The projection systems are pegging him for a high 3’s, very low 4’s ERA next year but honestly I don’t know why. There is nothing in his history that would suggest he can consistently be anywhere near as good a starter as he was last year.

by ViperLjs on Jan 19, 2009 1:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

good post...

I too anticipate at least some injury time for both Big Z and Harden. will that be enough to sink the ship? anybody’s guess… I think Dempster will continue to be good, just not as good as last year. the news here in Chicago just mentioned the possibility of converting Samardja (sic) to a starter, so I think they know they could be in a tough situation.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 18, 2009 11:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

you have

good points and good basis for your assumptions.
The thing is…
Can’t the same things be said about our top three starters next year? Carpenter, Waino and Lohse…

Yadi swings and hits a high fly ball... Endy Chavez goes back, to the track, to the wall... ITS A GUNNER!! Yadi gives St. Louis the lead in the top of the ninth!

by Paulspike on Jan 19, 2009 10:20 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Not exactly

I’ll give you one, Carpenter could be unable to pitch. However, no one expects Lohse to be quite as good as last year. Dempster should regress more that Lohse will. Dempster’s career ERA is 4.55, including his relief innings, while Lohse’s is 4.67. As for Wainwright, I don’t see how he is anything like any of the above three pitchers. His injury last year was of the “freak” variety. He hurt his finger. Not his elbow or his shoulder. His finger. He came back and posted a 3.35 ERA in his starts after the injury anyway.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 19, 2009 10:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didnt quite

get how Dempster is not like Lohse. however, you are right with the Waino case. Yes his injury was in his finger and it Dl’d for quite some time. However, Waino’s health is NOT a guarantee…

Yadi swings and hits a high fly ball... Endy Chavez goes back, to the track, to the wall... ITS A GUNNER!! Yadi gives St. Louis the lead in the top of the ninth!

by Paulspike on Jan 19, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nobody is a health garauntee

Waino, though, is 6 foot 7, doesn’t overthrow and has smooth mechanics. As far as I know, he has never had any problems with his shoulder, elbow, etc. He hurts his finger last year, which can happen to anyone, and it is certainly NOT a health risk.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 19, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

Waino is very low risk mechanic wise, and since we had that finger heal properly instead of rushing he should be just fine.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 19, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dempster

posted a 2.96 ERA last season. That’s over 1.5 runs better than his career average that includes relief innings along with last season. Lohse’s ERA was 3.78 last season, about .9 runs better than his career average. You should see more regression from Dempster than from Lohse.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 19, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

Lohse has no injury risk at the moment, and Wainwright’s finger is a non-issue. I still think that Carpenter is less of a risk than Harden and Zambrano.

by ultimatecardinalfan on Jan 19, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This brings up a question I've pondered occasionally but never had occasion to ask.

Anybody know a good baseball-related medical sports injury site?

Something that tells you basic mechanisms of injury, possible treatments, best-case and worst-case scenarios, etc.

So, my gut tells me that a finger injury probably fixes itself and is not a recurring injury like, say, a shoulder, but it would be nice to have a reference to check with. Anybody know a good site?

by tom s. on Jan 20, 2009 2:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

will carroll at BP tries to do this

but he’s just a sportswriter and has no medical training.

A true sports-injury blog written by a professional would be really interesting.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 20, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would dare

to say that shoulder and elbow injuries are often linked to articulation/tissue stress and repeating damage. This leads to degeneration on your elbow and thus requires additional treatment as tissue does not repair itself as easily as bone. Had I recommend a good place to look for further info, google differences between tissue, articulation and tendon degeneration and regeneration vrs. bone regeneration.

Yadi swings and hits a high fly ball... Endy Chavez goes back, to the track, to the wall... ITS A GUNNER!! Yadi gives St. Louis the lead in the top of the ninth!

by Paulspike on Jan 20, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i know there was an effort to put together a virtual library of SABR articles.

Could we hunt down some basic sports medicine info and try to post it for reference use?

by tom s. on Jan 21, 2009 2:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This post makes me

(cautiously) excited

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 19, 2009 10:57 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Miles will regress from last year

in Wrigley.

Mark it down.

I have a gut feeling they’re going to really miss Wood as well.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Jan 19, 2009 3:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

oh yeah

they’ll miss Wood and especially Derosa… Marmol as set up guy was huge for them, now who will fill his shoes? Couple all that with injuries waiting to happen with Harden, Zambrano, and Milton Bradley and I would be nervous to be a cubs fan.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 19, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I find it rather humorous...

That the Cubs needed to save money and trade away one of their best prospect pitchers for a guy who will now cost them 4+M this season. You can’t tell me that Ceda would not have pitched just as well as Gregg this season… And then trading the one player that I would consider to be the “glue” of the Cubs for 3 minor league RPs… And then not sign Kerry Wood with the “saved” money (fan favorite and closer).

by Jumsy on Jan 19, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And using that money to sign Aaron Miles and Milton Bradley

Who are a replacement level player and an oft inured jerk.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 19, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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