the cardinals' top 7 prospects
since leaving st louis with a 3.5-game lead, the brewers have only broken even, 5 wins and 5 losses. alas alack, the cards have only gone 3-6 in the same span. now here’s the really awful thing --- in 3 of those losses the cardinals led after 6 innings, and in 2 of the others they held early 3-run leads. in all 5 of those defeats, the cardinals’ win probability surpassed the 75 percent threshold at some point during the game; probabilistically speaking, they ought to have won 4 of the 5 --- in which case they’d be riding a 7-2 tear and just a single game back of milwaukee. even if they’d merely won 3 of the 5, they’d be 2 games out and making things very uncomfortable for the brew crew.
woulda coulda shoulda --- ain’t that baseball?
derrick goold has a project going over at Bird Land; he’s asked a bunch of cardinal bloggers to list the 7 best prospects in the st louis farm system. derrick comes up with the top-prospects list for Baseball America every off-season, and with the minor-league schedules pretty much over (batavia made the playoffs, so they’re not quite through) he has started his research for next year’s book. i figured i’d weigh in; i don’t get to see the minor leaguers play very often, but i talk to people; i read about ‘em and follow the numbers. so i’m weighing in, for whatever my opinion is worth.
before i go on: the definition of "prospect" can get a little blurry sometimes. is chris perez still a prospect? his rookie-of-the-year eligibility will probably still be intact for 2009, so technically speaking you could say yeah, he’s a prospect. joe mather, on the other hand, lost his rookie eligibility, yet he seems a lot more like a prospect to me than perez does. perez has graduated to the big leagues; he’s got a regular job, and there’s no longer much doubt about whether he can play at this level. it’s just a question of how good he will be. mather, by contrast, can’t be assured that he’ll ever take another big-league at-bat; reserve outfielders are a dime a dozen, and the cardinals have a big glut of them. so it seems bass-ackwards to deny him "prospect" status while granting it to a guy like perez.
there’s also the question of what "best" means when you’re dealing with prospects. is it the guy who is closest to being ready for a big-league job? by that yardstick, mitchell boggs is definitely a better prospect than adam ottavino. but if "best" is defined as the guy with the greatest potential to become a star, then ottavino is a better prospect --- even though it doesn’t look like he’ll be ready before 2010 at the very soonest.
to deal with these issues and ensure a consistent, rigorously evaluated top 7, i have. . . . . done nothing. with respect to the first issue, i’m more or less using the most restrictive definition of "prospect" ---- ie, i’m excluding mather because he objectively has lost his rookie eligibility, and i’m excluding perez because subjectively i think he has graduated from prospect status. but that’s only a loose guideline, which i will break unapologetically if it should suit my purposes. likewise, on the issue of what defines "best" --- it just depends. i’m not applying a hard-n-fast rule. i’m just eyeballing it, folks.
so let’s get started already. i think the list of the top 7 prospects in the system begins with 3 no-brainers: brett wallace, colby rasmus, and daryl jones. i’m not ranking the 3 of them in any order, just placing all 3 at the head of the class. they all appear to have 2 attributes that generally translate well to the big leagues: a power stroke and good strike-zone judgment. each of the 3 seems capable of developing into the "impact"-type player la russa’s been talking about lately. wallace is probably the best pure hitter; his MLE across two levels this year was .274 / .325 / .448, which is very similar to what ryan braun posted in his first year with wooden bats, back in 2005. two years later he was a 34-homer man in the national league. but wallace, like braun, may not be able to handle 3d base (his current position) in the big leagues, and it’s not clear that he’d even be able to play left field. so even if wallace’s bat develops as advertised, he gets demerits for his lack of a clear position.
in 2008 daryl jones finally posted numbers worthy of his raw tools, for which he has long been touted. upon reaching the double A texas league in july he became one of the youngest everyday players in the league; also one of the best. interestingly, his MLE average and slugging for 2008 were identical to wallace’s --- slash lines of .274 / .346 / .448 over two levels. but jones is a year younger than wallace, and he spent more of his time at higher levels of competition than wallace; he’s also reputed to be a plus defender and he’s got excellent speed, so he can contribute even when he doesn’t have a bat in his hands.
finally there’s rasmus, whose season was streaky and frustrating and injury-marred. it’s said that he still tries to pull the ball too much and still doesn’t make good contact vs left-handers; his MLE slash-lines were unimpressive at .231 / .321 / .359. i’m not too worried about this, to be perfectly honest; he started slowly, as he has done at every level of the minors, and then adjusted to the league --- which in itself is an indicator of his ability: he finds his opponents’ weaknesses over time, rather than vice versa. that, and the fact that he consistently exhibits good strike-zone judgment, persuade me that he still deserves the mantle of #1 prospect in the system (for the 3d straight year), in spite of the lackluster season. but it’s not as cut-and-dried as it once was; he’s got some competition now, and something to prove.
having said that: if i were the gm, i’d commit to making him my opening-day 2009 cf and trade away at least 2 of the left-handed outfielders (duncan / skip / ankiel). rasmus probably won’t be a big star right away, and he might even be a slight downgrade for a year or so. but he appears to be an intelligent player ---- at least, he has shown an ability to make adjustments. the sooner they get him in there to start figuring out big-league pitching, the sooner he will reach his eventual ceiling.
behind these three, there are a lot of other guys who you could make a case for in slots 4 through 7. i gave consideration to 9 players who ended the year at triple A ---- jaime garcia, jess todd, mitch boggs, clay mortensen, jason motte, john jay, david freese, bryan anderson, and brian barden --- and 3 who ended it at double A --- allen craig, adam ottavino, and donovan solano --- and 3 who spent the year at class A and below --- niko vasquez, deryk hooker, and nick additon. if i left your favorite player off the list, sorry. i like all these players for one reason or another, and if you ask me tomorrow i might not pick the same 4 i am listing today. here are my four --- again, not ranked in order:
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mitchell boggs: boggs led the PCL in earned run average this year, a not-insignificant feat. pitchers who’ve ranked at or near the top of that league’s era leaderboard in recent years include jorge campillo, chris sampson, joe saunders, jason hirsh, and edison volquez, and all became useful big-league pitchers very soon thereafter. we got a chance to see this boggs’s skill set, and it looks to me like he has weapons very similar to jason marquis’; that’s not meant to be an insult. marquis is having a very successful career imho --- he has made close to 200 big-league starts (or 7 seasons’ worth) and won about 80 of them, and his team has finished in first place every single year he has been in the majors. give boggs a couple of years and, if he’s lucky, he’ll be grinding out (mostly) capable 6-inning starts somewhere in the big leagues, or maybe pitching as a setup man. if he can reach that level while he’s young and cost-controlled, he’ll be quite valuable for a while; once he reaches free-agent status, he’ll be an overpriced stiff like marquis is now.
jess todd: todd was one of the cards’ most highly praised selections in the 2007 draft, and he’s done nothing but get results since then. he doesn’t have the type of dominating stuff that makes you think "ace," but he avoids walks and gets scads and scads and scads and scads of groundballs. he was dominant in both his appearances against other top prospects (the texas league all-star game and the futures game), and he made 3 very good starts in 4 tries at triple A. like boggs, he might have a future either as a midrotation starter or as a late-inning reliever, and if he were to reach that peak soon (which seems possible to me) he’d be extremely valuable during his pre-free-agent years.
bryan anderson: like rasmus, he was one of the youngest players in triple A, at 21. he has always exhibited a good batting eye, and the lack of power doesn’t bother me; he’s still filling out, and it’s very common for players to add power as they mature. MLE at triple A this year was .258 / .338 / .350; his skill set is less fully formed than rasmus’ is, and he probably needs at least another season at triple A. if he didn’t play catcher i wouldn’t be as excited about him, but that’s a premium position.
jason motte: what’s not to like? he’s mean, he throws 200 miles an hour, he strikes out hitters by the bushel, and he’s only been pitching 2 years. once he figures out what he’s actually doing out there, he might be halfway decent.
i would have put jaime garcia on this list if not for his elbow troubles. but he's now had pain in that joint two years in a row, and they're talking about surgery. if he has the surgery, all bets are off; even if he doesn't, the recurrence of the problem is a major red flag. based on performance and tools alone, he belongs in the top 7, but the health problem knocks him out of the running in my opinion.
Cardinal70 has links to all the other blogs who are participating in this project, so check them out to see other folks’ take on the top 7. and keep your eye on Bird Land, where derrick will be sifting through it all in the near soon.
0 recs |
147 comments
Comments
Prospects:
Take Boggs and Motte out (don’t consider them prospects, officially) and put in Jay (whom I think is great trade bait) and niko/nico.
Completely unrelated:
30 Teams, 30 Songs
St. Louis Cardinals: “Alive” by Pearl Jam. This team was written off for dead before the year even began. Their core was old, people wondered about Albert Pujols’ health, and they were reduced to relying on guys like Ryan Ludwick. Well, turns out there’s more fight in them than people realize.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Sep 8, 2008 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
like the songs list
does anybody remember a similar list that paired each team with a band or artist? had some real gems. the cards were the beach boys, which made a lot of sense. the astros were zz top, possibly my favorite pairing. the reasons; they’ve been around longer than you might think, they looked really goofy in the 80s, they’re from texas. if anybody knows where this list is, could you post a link? thanks in advance.
by mattybobo on Sep 8, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Try this link
Hope it works.
If it doesn’t, search the Phillies SN blog.
by Edbird on Sep 8, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to disagree with your list.....
I’d put Rasmus, Wallace, and Anderson at the top of the list though.
After that, I’d probably go Boggs, Motte, Jones, and Jay.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 9:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Top 7
1. Rasmus- Still has all the tools and potential but the farm is catching up with him.
2. Wallace- Unbelievable hitting presence. gap between 1 and 2 is thisclose, imo
3. Jones- Absolutely sick talent. i hope he starts in Springfield again just so i can see him some more…
4. Todd- He will, of course, destroy us all…
5. Nico/Niko- Great debut. if he can stick in the MIF he will be special
6. Anderson- Never been a big fan after watching him all last year but he has been young at ever level and produced well.
7. Craig- He has really impressed me with how hard he hits the ball and his great numbers. if nothing else hopefully he can be good bait.
Honorable Mentions- Mortensen, Boggs, Jay, Lynn, Solano, Castillo, Salas, Freese, Garcia, Greene
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on Sep 8, 2008 10:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Daryl Jones
I hope he’s assigned to AAA for the same reason you hope he starts in Springfield. May not be the “top” prospect, but may be the most exciting who doesn’t throw a 100mph fastball. Or can he do that, too?
by random on Sep 8, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i heard Jones
took Amaury Marti out behind the wood shed and put a whoopin’ on him, but that is just a rumor…
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on Sep 8, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a rumor that was started by Amaury Marti
I have no idea why he would start such a rumor, but I have confidence we will all be made aware of his plan sooner than later.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Sep 8, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i like that you included boggs, lb
no, he’s not going to be an ace, but a cost controlled back-end starter is more valuable then people think. i never really understood the attitude of some fans that boggs wasn’t a very good prospect, having him sure beats paying $5-8 m per season of some veteran version.
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
by erik on Sep 8, 2008 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Was Marquis in 04
the last time we had a back of the end starter (who consistently started) to make near league min?
(Wainwright made near league min last year, but I wouldn’t consider him “back of the rotation.” )
Of course, this question parallels who was the last league min (re: young) pitcher to get a consistent (season) shot? Was it Wainwright and Marquis?
(Man, I love that Drew trade.)
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Sep 8, 2008 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was pretty much a win-win trade
Drew had a great season for the Braves the next year (although they couldn’t sign him) and Marquis was on a squad that went to two World Series’. Not to mention that WW now looks like a staff ace.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 8, 2008 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fernando Salas!!!
Come on – surely he deserves to be included on the list….
by jomfa on Sep 8, 2008 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh my
Thinks of the horrible puns on his name that will undoubtedly be used if Nick Addition ever gets to the majors
by saladdays on Sep 8, 2008 11:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A different top 3?
First, let me preface this with saying that I have seen absolutely NONE of these players actually play a game, except for Todd on TV when he was in college.
Now, having said that, and looking purely at the numbers, will I get booed off the board by saying that I would replace Rasmus with Todd in my top 3? I know that Rasmus has had the “top prospect, can’t miss” tag for a long time, but, suddenly, there seem to be questions. Yes, he was hurt this year, but do we need to worry about a MLE line of .231/.321/.359? In looking at the raw numbers, I am.
Hopefully, he’ll come into ST and tear it up like last spring and answer all doubts, but, until then, I’m worried a bit.
by ArkansasTravs on Sep 8, 2008 12:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Booed off the board?
Hardly, although there will be some people that will be harsh with your criticism of “the golden child”.
If you look at comparable players to Rasmus, there are a number of them that struggled in their first call-up to the AAA level, and nearly all of them were older than Colby was this year. His skill set compares to players like Andy Van Slyke (who came up in the Cardinal system), Grady Sizemore, and Adam Jones (who came up in the Mariner system and was traded to Baltimore in the deal for Bedard). Van Slyke and Sizemore became very productive players at the big league level while playing good defense at a premium defensive position, and Jones has showed signs of being a better than average big league centerfielder in his rookie year in Baltimore.
I wouldn’t place Todd in the top three because those three guys project as major league regulars/borderline All-Star type talent, whereas Todd doesn’t have dominating stuff, and although he’s been dominating at times, he projects as a middle of the rotation starter or set-up guy at the big league level. While those guys have value at he big league level, there are a lot more of them than there are 5 tool centerfielders and quality backstops who can hit for high average and get on base.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 8, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sizemore..
yep, I’ve seen that comparison quite often. Let’s all hope to the GOBs he lives up to it. I guess I just let myself get spooked by the relatively poor year this year and the recent chatter.
Agree that Todd hasn’t proved yet that he will be anything special. Probably just local pride type hope there.
by ArkansasTravs on Sep 8, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the list
and don’t get the love for Jay. He’s had a great season and will surely be a useful major-leaguer, but it’s not at all clear that he’ll be more than a 4th OF. All these guys either have better tools, or play a premium position, or a higher ceiling. Jay may be able to contribute next season but he’ll hardly be the OF that Jones or Rasmus, or even Wallace will if he’s moved there (assuming everything goes as planned). I agree that Garcia comes off the list if he has surgery. That would probably make Mortensen and Jay 8 and 9 (or 9 and 8).
Also, while Niko Vazquez has had a great beginning of his career, he’s so far away (and had so little time in the minors) that he cannot be considered a better prospect than these guys who are much closer to the bigs. Niko, Jay, Craig, Ottavino are nice guys to have in the system but they all fall at least 1 notch below the guys on this list.
by chuckb on Sep 8, 2008 12:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why cant he?
being a prospect is all about potential. A MIF that has potential to be a power hitting All-Star but is many years away should be ranked higher than a potential 4th OF that is close to the majors.
i dont see how those players are one notch below a player like Jason Motte? am i glad we have him? sure. is going to be anything besides a one inning guy? no. how is he a notch above a 3B that has hit almost 50 hr over the last two season? or a shortstop that posted a .900 OPS out of high school? i just dont buy that. now if you want to put them behind Anderson or Todd i understand but even Boggs is a bit of a stretch to be above Niko or Craig.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on Sep 8, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.....
I think you have to balance the two. Potential is all good and great, but more players than not don’t live up to their potential. So in a way, a kid that has proven himself at a higher level, and one that has developed to near his ceiling has some value that a kid that is still raw doesn’t.
Like I said, it’s a balancing act when ranking/analyzing them.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
while i agree you have to balance them
and that a 4th OF or good bullpen arm does have value but we are talking about rating prospects and a potential all-star talent should be a higher rank than a AAAA guy that has reached his ceiling. i would think that is common sense.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on Sep 8, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boggs will pitch in the big leagues next year
and Niko has 45 PAs at low A ball. He may end up being great — 3 or 4 years from now — but it’s at least equally likely that he never plays in the big leagues. If he’s in our top 7, our farm system isn’t very good. If you like him over Jay, I could go along w/ that. As I said, I’m not that big of a Jay fan. Motte, OTOH, will pitch for the Cards next year and will probably throw 50-60 innings or more. He also has a very good chance of becoming a solid 7th inning guy and a fairly good chance of being a good setup man.
If Niko were closer, there’d be no doubt that his value at a premium position would put him higher than a middle relief/setup reliever. However, 45 PAs at low A ball! I’m excited to see what he can do but people get points for being close to the bigs and lose pts. for being at least 3-4 years away. Also, there’s a lot to like w/ Niko but his BB/K ratio isn’t one of them. Hopefully it improves and he’s definitely a top 12 or so prospect.
Also, Motte’s a AAAA guy who has reached his ceiling? If you think so, you don’t much about him. He’s not yet approached his ceiling.
by chuckb on Sep 8, 2008 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just because you are close to the big leagues
doesn’t make you better it just means you are older and have progressed from where you started. if you really think Jason Motte will have a better more valuable career than Niko than that is great and you should rank him higher. i do not.
If he’s in our top 7, our farm system isn’t very good.
conversely i think if we have to have a middle reliever in our top 7 than our system isn’t very good. i was not speaking about Motte when i said “AAAA player that has reached his ceiling” it was a generalization. i know Motte has just started pitching and will undoubtedly get better but at best he is still just a middle relief guy that i will have some value but in the end will be very replaceable with the next strong armed right hander out of the system, maybe Francisco Samuel.
in the end a player like Motte is potentially great to have when he is cost controlled but after that is pointless where as Niko has the potential to be All-Star MIF that hits with pretty good power that has value long after he is cost controlled. That is how i rank prospects who has the potential to have the most value. if you do it different, to each his own but i will never believe that Motte has more potential for value than Niko.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on Sep 9, 2008 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Motte reached his full potential
does anyone really that his ceiling is a setup guy? If the man can develop an above average breaking ball/changeup/whatever, he has the potential to be a shutdown closer!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Sep 9, 2008 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
even if he does become a shut down closer
it is still not near as valuable as a good MIF, all bullpen arms can be replaced pretty easily and are quite overrated, esp closers!
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on Sep 10, 2008 7:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amaury Marti.....
…needs to be on that list of top 7 prospects.
I hear he pulls up whole trees out of the ground and swings them as a warm up.
:-)
by A1R3Z on Sep 8, 2008 12:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
New List
1. Amaury Marti
2. Amaury Marti
3. Amaury Marti
4. Amaury Marti
5. Amaury Marti
6. Amaury Marti
7. Amaury Marti
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Sep 8, 2008 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A1R3Z speaks the truth
And has a superb avatar pic.
by random on Sep 8, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ugh
that first paragraph had me almost to tears (figuratively at least).
by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 8, 2008 1:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
more bad news
The dude who cracked the elias rankings had an error in his spreadsheet; Lohse is a Type B, instead of A as earlier reported, so no free draft pick, and Derek Lowe is a Type “A”, so he’ll be more expensive than just money.
Grumble.
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2008 1:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
interesting note
aaron miles has almost attained type B status!
by soccerfreak on Sep 8, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and now Looper is a Type B.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Sep 8, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's good news, right?
Wasn’t he a “no type” before?
Let’s hope he has a couple more good starts.
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
its good news if we dont offer him a contract and just offer arb
i have a feeling a 2-3 yr offer is in the works for looper
by FunkeeC on Sep 8, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or Lohse...
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 8, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saw that...
had the same “grumble” feeling as you. It’s fun (to me) to go through the list and see who is on the verge of either status and predict where they might fall. It’s (probably) not impossible for Lohse to move to a type A and/or for Lowe to fall to a type B…granted it may not be easy. If Lohse can win 3 or 4 more by the end of the year he may very well leapfrog the four guys above him:
Derek Lowe A 73.80952381
Jeff Francis A 73.38435374
Brad Penny B 72.61904762
John Smoltz B 72.27891156
Chad Billingsley B 69.72789116
Kyle Lohse B 69.64285714
Bronson Arroyo B 69.04761905
Jamie Moyer B 68.28231293
by cardzfanbub on Sep 8, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Talking to myself here...
Smoltz is out for the year, and Penny is questionable whether he’ll pitch again this year. Best case scenario…Lohse pitches lights out and Francis outpitches Lowe, or Billingsley and Lohse pitch REALLY well overtaking Francis and Lowe. All in all it looks to me like Lohse may be two spots out of type A status when the dust settles…probably behind Billingsley.
Grumble.
by cardzfanbub on Sep 8, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my guesstimate at top 7 prospects
Wallace
Rasmus
Motte
Ottavino
Vasquez
Todd
B. Anderson
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 8, 2008 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Here is something for some of you.....
To get bent out of shape about. ESPN article saying Carpenter may be used to close some games. Not all of them, but some of them.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3575902
I’m kind of impartial to this if true. Don’t really care either way. Perez probably doesn’t need to close every opportunity, as I just don’t think he is ready. Carp should do a stellar job in that role. We’ll just have to see how it all plays out.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 3:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not just EPSN
StlToday.com also has an article on this.
by StLHugo on Sep 8, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
carpenter is the best pitcher in the bullpen
why would we get upset about it? It’s what should have been done originally, when Carpenter made his first aborted comeback.
Replacing a rookie with a cy-young award winner isn’t a big deal. It’s when he is replaced with the 5th or 6th-best pitcher in the bullpen that we get frustrated.
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to have that discussion again.....
But who the 5th and 6th best guys in the pen are, and who is better than Perez at any given time, are all subjective things. There is no right or wrong answer.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then why need a manager
if it is all subjective to who is good or bad, hell, let’s let the fans pick who goes out there and pitches the 9th.
It could even help boost attendance.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just b/c something is subjective.....
Doesn’t mean that a man that has been around the game as long/much as TLR, doesn’t have a better understanding than Joe Fan.
But you knew that already.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
except, of course, the answer that TLR settles on is always "right", lol
You are dead wrong here; there is ALWAYS a right answer, sometimes more than one. Where it becomes difficult is that in baseball sometimes you can make the right decision(s) and get unlucky, and look “wrong”. There is also a wrong answer, always, and sometimes you can make the wrong decision(s) and get lucky and look “right”. Which answer is right and which answer is wrong is also always up for debate, and the outcome of one event on the field never answers that debate one way or the other. but when it happens over and over, and the manager doesn’t seem to notice it until it’s gone on for weeks or months, it’s a problem.
For whatever reason, you’ve decided that we are not allowed to debate rightness and wrongness of decisions. That is just absurd. Yes, in aggregate we probably complain too much, and yes, TLR is probably better than we give him credit for, but he is not infallible and he has made increasingly bizarre decisions the last few years. I just don’t see how you can possibly argue that his bullpen management this year has been anything but disastrous.
The decision to use carp as a starter, which was argued against by many here, very possibly was more damaging to our season than the decision to keep running izzy out there in may. This same cy-young caliber pitcher was theoretically available and not used except for once (in the blowout win) in the series Larry talks about in his intro- a series in which bullpen melt-downs may have (even if you ignore the rest of this year’s bad decisions) cost us the season. So yeah, TLR is finally making (ONE OF THE POSSIBLE) right decision(s) with Carp, after his wrong decision with the same chess piece cost us a month+ of cy-young caliber pitching out of the bullpen. Just like he finally decided to use Luddy after a starter, only after juan enc got hurt and preston wilson got hurt and chris duncan got hurt. So don’t expect me to stand up and applaud.
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and the outcome of one event on the field never answers that debate one way or the other.
Yet more often than not, that is the criteria that is used during those “debates”.
HL, for example, tried to say that calling for a hit and run with the pitcher (JP I think) that resulted in him lining out to 2B for the double play was a wrong decision. To me, that decision can never be right or wrong. Ever. It’s just a decision.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
perfect example
that particular decision is always wrong. Sometimes you get lucky- one time out of 5, maybe- and look like a genius. But if it doesn’t work, the manager bears the respoinsibility for that wrong decision.
You seem to think he should get a free ride on bad decisions because they work out sometimes. No, sorry, it doesn’t work that way.
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's always wrong to hit and run with a pitcher?
LMAO…..that is ridiculous, if that is what you are saying. There are ALOT of reasons to hit and run.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to add two things to this.....
I bet every NL team has hit and run at least once this year with a pitcher.
And second, to go a little further on my it’s not a right or wrong decision, it’s a gut decision by the manager. It might turn out to be right or wrong, and as much as TLR plays alot of his managing by the book, there are still several decisions that you just have to go by feel. Bunting a guy with two strikes is an example of this. When/if to steal. Some of you disagree, but I love TLR when it comes to these decisions. He seems to make calls like this that work, more often then fail. Every time he puts a weird lineup out there, I just laugh at the people calling for his head, b/c a large % of the time, whatever they were complaining about usually works out in TLR’s favor.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony isn't foolish enough to just go from the gut
bunting with 2 strikes isn’t an example of ‘getting a feel’ for the situation, it is because he has probably assessed the situation and seen that if the batter strikes out trying to bunt, it won’t hurt the teams chances in that inning. He doesn’t just say “Boy, I think Braden really can lay this one down on 0-2, let’s do this!”
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.....
If a guy looks absolutely terrible trying to lay one down, or the pitcher is throwing filthy stuff up there, or is tough to bunt, and is ahead of the count, or if the pitcher is a good hitter, and maybe historically struggles to get bunts down. Bunting with 2 strikes is a mental thing that some people can’t get over.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You presume that because it's been done before
it’s correct. That is a fallacy.
by Harknights on Sep 8, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a family site
you keep your fallacy in your pants, mister!
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you are talking about.....
Other NL teams doing the same, my point wasn’t that it is right b/c they did it, it’s that if TLR was wrong, then every other NL manager was also wrong, so assessing TLR’s managing skills based on that would be wrong.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that one example
is not the only data point we have. it’s just one example. There are 3 or 4 or 10 examples every night, which is why you are finding so much second-guessing going on in the game threads.
TLR is a much better manager thqan Ned Yost. he’s much, much better than Joe Torre. All that means is that ned yost, joe torre and TLR all have room to improve.
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bet
you are dead wrong on that. Go ahead and peruse through baseball-reference to see if that’s the case, but I highly doubt conservative managers like Joe Torre or Bobby Cox has EVER put a hit and run on with the pitcher up there. They don’t hit and run with their good hitters are at the plate, why would they do it with the worst hitters in their lineups?
Just because it’s been done before doesn’t make it the right play, that’s a total fallacy.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 8, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like Torre pulled the move
Game against Reds on June 19th. 4th inning on a 2-1 count, Stults hits a single to left with Berrao going from 1st to 3rd. Gameday doesn’t explain much but here’s the link
The condensed game has Charlie Steiner confirming the hit and run by the pitcher.
by ubeddie on Sep 8, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it is the wrong decision
but you do it sometimes for deceptive reasons.
I don’t think “The book” would ever say that it’s correct and stats would agree…but predicability is wrong as well…so sometimes you have to spit into the wind.
by Harknights on Sep 8, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh.....
That is pretty much my point.
I’m not going to argue whether it is a good baseball play or not. Some will think so, others won’t. But you have to go against the grain from time to time. I only remember that one instance this year. Hmm…..
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Letting your catcher pitch
in the 9th inning of a tied game is ‘against the grain’ but it is an awful baseball decision. If it works out, it is based more on luck than being the right decision.
See what people are trying to say?
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again.....
You have to take measured chances. Obviously your example would be a dumb baseball move. But you CANNOT, with a straight face, compare that to calling for a hit and run with a pitcher. Not even close. And if you are really trying to make that argument, I’m done, b/c you are just being hard headed.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forcing generally the worst hitter in the lineup
on any given night to have to make contact is just as bad a ‘gamble’ as having your catcher pitch.
If Micah Owings or Adam Wainwright are batting, the odds of it being successful go up, but you are still calling on a guy who only takes batting practice once (maybe twice) a week to do something that most guys who take BP everyday struggle to do.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is why you don't do it often.....
He’s done it ONE time this year, yet you use that example to make him out to be some kind of Ned Yost.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
only once?
I seem to remember looper being used in a hit and run quite often, maybe I am dreaming it
by StLHugo on Sep 8, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
definitely. I’d estimate more than 10 times, actually, but I have no idea how to find this using information available.
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2008 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How's this look
I did this research at baseball-reference and may have captured what is being discussed. Pitcher batting, man on first resulting in double play has occurred four times. Two were ground outs, two were line outs.
by ubeddie on Sep 8, 2008 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another B-R report
Here is another B-R report showing additional situations to the one above. Pitcher batting, man on first and batter is out. 59 times in 2008 with 2 GIDP and 2 LIDP (is that a term ?)
And one more for all 64 plate appearances with pitcher batting and man on first.
by ubeddie on Sep 8, 2008 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for the research
i tried to duplicate it and i apparently really suck at B-ref PI, because I couldn’t even figure out how to red owhat you did, much less find more info. Anyway, (and i had a very long reply that got zomped out when i accidentally clicked reply to HC below) but the crux of the argument lies in that we need a way to determine how many times a hit-and-run was called ineffectually with a pitcher batting and a person with a minimal chance of stealing a base (duncan, molina, glaus, etc) running.
Based on your links it happened at least once, against bannister in a game we lost 2-1 in which duncan got thrown out at second on a K. But it happened other times- i swear- when the pitcher’s PA didn’t end in a k (at least, on the pitch that the hit-and-run was called on) but the player was still caught stealing. I just can’t figure out how to get PI to tell me when.
I guess I could just go through the gamelogs of players who batted in the 6-7 spot and look for CS’s, but I’m feeling amazingly lazy these days.
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 9, 2008 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll research later tonight
work is getting in the way today but I should have some time this evening to try the scenario.
by ubeddie on Sep 9, 2008 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What we are saying
is that it’s just a bad play no matter how often you do it, kinda like putting a catcher on the mound in the ninth in a one run game. Element of surprise? Sure, but with less than 2 out there are other, better options — like, say, bunting the man over.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 8, 2008 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And sometimes bunting may be a bad option.....
Slow runner at 1B. Pitcher that doesn’t bunt well. Etc.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no matter how slow the runner is
A quality bunt will advance the runner nearly every single time. Yes, even Molina. Also, how often have you seen a double play turned 5-4-3, or 1-6-3 from a bunt? It’s pretty rare, so you’re still not running yourself out of an inning.
This also was not the case in the situation in question, you had a middle infielder with good speed on first base.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 8, 2008 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's hard to lay down a solid bunt.....
If you aren’t a very good bunter, or the other team is standing on home plate.
With a slow runner at 1B, I’ve seen a ton of playes where he is thrown at at 2B. Probably seen that as many times as I’ve seen a sucessful bunt, in some situations.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
most of those situations
involve yadier molina, either running or throwing the ball.
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And
it’s also much harder for those who can’t bunt to put the ball in play properly with a swing, which is what you do on a hit and run. Either way, the bunt is a much higher percentage play, in every book, ever written, ever in the history of baseball.
Even a bad bunter is going to bunt into a double play much less than he would hit into one or strike out into a strikeout/throwout double play.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 8, 2008 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please, Please
Don’t argue that it’s easier for a pitcher to put a ball in play with a swing that it is to put down a decent bunt. There are many baseball men who will disagree with you. Just don’t Do It
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 8, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are
but not with a player who doesn’t get regular AB’s, can’t be trusted to put the ball in play on the ground, etc.
It’s a very low percentage play that doesn’t even get you all that much if it works.
I would say that a pitcher has a 5% greater chance of a base hit on a hit and run that on a regular pitch, so why risk the double play when you could bunt the man over, give up only one out, and let a position player hit with a runner in scoring position?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 8, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hit and Run
I don’t like using the hit and run with Izturis on 1B. He can steal 2B, so I generally would rather let him try to steal the bag.
The hit and run is a good play but it can be a bad play as well… I don’t want to take the time to explain them all. Maybe I will if this arguement keeps going.
by ICbirdfan on Sep 8, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that decision can never be right or wrong
why call for it? If you can’t make a wrong decision, then just let the players play however they like, randomly calling for their own hit-and-runs.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your example
is the worst possible example to illustrate your point. Calling for a hit and run with the pitcher at the plate is probably one of the worst plays you can make as a manager. As John McGraw used to say “Only three things can happen, and two of them are very bad.”
It doesn’t make sense to put a runner in motion with a pitcher at the plate when he could bunt the man over — why risk a double play when you can give up an out to move a runner into scoring position? If it works, you don’t get a run, you get first and third with less than two out, which isn’t all that much better a situation that runner at second and two out, ESPECIALLY with a light hitting ground ball machine hitting ninth. It’s very, very bad baseball to do this, TLR should know better, but sometimes his own overmanaging gets ahead of him.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 8, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only 3 things can happen?
Uh, no. Depends on the count and number of outs, but even then, I think there are always more than 3.
Swing and a miss, the guy could be safe stealing. Or he could be out. If the count is full the batter could walk. He could hit into a FC. He could hit into an out and not advance the runner. He can hit into an out and advance the runner. He could get a hit. And I’m probably missing some.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Three true outcomes
hit, out, walk.
Variations of that all tie back into those 3.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
3 true are HR, K and BB
Those are the only things that do not take defense into account
by StLHugo on Sep 8, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Russell Branyan
agrees with you.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that is a good way of looking at it.
An out made by the hitter is alot better than an out made at 2B, no?
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
john mcgraw had a lot more experience than you as a manager
how dare you question him!
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides the fact that I was quoting a HOF manager
Depends on the count? If the hit and run is on, there’s three things that can happen. The hitter can swing and miss and hang the runner out to dry. He can line out to an infielder which will be a double play every time, or he could get a hit, which would probably advance the runner to third.
Every other outcome ends up with the same outcome as a bunt or a regular out, without the hit and run in that situation. No better, no worse.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 8, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea.....
Depends on the count. You know, if you have 3 balls, and you are thrown a ball, you get to walk?!? Neat huh. On the flip side, if you have 2 balls or less, a ball doesn’t get you a walk. Also, if you have 2 strikes, it is possible you can strike out. If you have less than 2 strikes, that option can’t happen on that particular pitch.
So yes, count mattters.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
Ok…see if you can follow me here. The purpose of a hit and run is to put the runner in motion and hit the ball on the ground somewhere — if you’re calling a hit and run with the pitcher at the plate and a three ball count you’re even a bigger moron than previously thought. The count does not matter — when you hit and run, you swing the bat regardless because you’re protecting the runner.
I covered your strikeout — if he swings and misses at the plate, that runner is probably getting gunned down a true hit and run, because runners have to make sure that the pitcher goes home first — he’s not going to get a good enough jump to steal the bag. They also have to check and see if the ball was put in play and where on the way to second. If he’s fast enough to steal second with a shitty jump and looking in, why doesn’t he just steal the bag to start with and have the pitcher then have a regular at-bat trying to drive in a run?
Any other play, and it’s not a hit and run, it’s a straight steal with a batter not getting the take sign.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 8, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In HS.....
We used to hit an run on 3-1 counts and stuff. The batter knew that he didn’t have to swing if it were a ball, but if it were a strike, he had better swing to protect the runner.
I never said it is common, but it is something that can happen, and it is something that I’ve personally seen done.
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, if it worked in high school
surely it’ll work in MLB…
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was high school
this is the majors. In high school I’d venture to say that your pitchers probably played SS when they weren’t pitching too, but Wainwright doesn’t play the field when he’s not pitching now does he? We used to gamble steal in high school and run first and third steal plays too, but I don’t see a lot of teams using those either. This ain’t Little Big League.
You missed the point entirely here: If the pitcher has a 3-1 count, why would you put on a play that’s going to make him expand his strike zone when you could just as easily let him hit? He’s probably going to get a fastball down the middle, shouldn’t he have a chance to put a good swing on it, rather than trying to slap the ball down on the ground? If the pitcher throws him a ball, he can take it and walk to first.
On any 3 ball count the hit and run becomes a worse play with the pitcher at the plate, and a bunt is still the better option because he’s probably going to get a good pitch to bunt.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 8, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how is first and third with less than two out no better than a man at second with two out?
sac fly, ground out, etc. all score a run in the first scenario and end the inning in the second scenario. plus a wild pitch likely scores a run.
by tom s. on Sep 8, 2008 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why has he been unavailble?
Maybe I am missing it somewhere but the other night when Chris Perez was given his night off to rest his arm, why didn’t Tony turn to Chris Carpenter ( who hadn’t pitched in 5 days)? Instead, he went to a LOOGY and Franklin to pitch his 3rd inning in 2 nights.
This statement troubled me though:
“It would be great to be able to use Chris and Jason in the sixth, seventh and eighth,” La Russa said. “That’s the way it should work this year.”
Which Chris? Chris Carpenter or Chris Perez? If it is Chris Perez, why would it be better to use a guy who has spent his entire professional career as a closer in the 6th inning? Perez has 7 saves and 2 blown saves in the (not the) closer’s role. Is there suddenly that much of a concern to remove him?
The two more pressing question to me are: If the Cardinals miraculously make the playoffs, is Chris Carpenter an option as a starting pitcher? In a short series, I like my chances with Wainwright, Carpenter and Wellemeyer starting. And, where are Josh Kinney and Brian Barden? Did we even really call them up?
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know.
I know Chris Carpenter was not available the other day… I know people were asking why he was not getting into the game. I think they are being real carrful with Carp, as the last thing you want to do is rush him out there and not be warmed up properly. I thinks it’s even more important this time of year considering the colder weather in the evenings. Carp is not used to warming up quickly.
Who is Jason? Motte or Izzy?
I get the impression that Carp is not going to start if the Cards make the play-offs.
by ICbirdfan on Sep 8, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i completely forgot barden was called up
would be nice to see him get some playing time.
Kinney, I’ve been wondering about.
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barden
Barden has played 1 inning at 3B since being called up.
by StLHugo on Sep 8, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, September 2nd
how did I miss that game? Probably because Perez came in and dominated the DBacks, and it was all over so fast.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do have a problem with this
What end result is TLR trying to get to? Yes Carp is a great pitcher…but he can’t go everyday. So who closes the days he can close? Perez? The same guy you removed from the closers role you never gave him all because he had one bad night and another where he made a good pitch but was burned anyway? If just anyone can close then whats the big deal about closers?
I think that Tony should be setting this team up so that if we do make the playoffs it can continue uninterupted. Perez should be the closer. If it doesn’t work it doesn’t work…but jerking guys around and then being suprised when they play like players who have been jerked around is bad. to me Tony is just setting up a self-fulfilling prophecy.
by Harknights on Sep 8, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was surprised
that he didn’t close out the game the other night when Franklin did. Of course, he may have been used earlier that game for all I know…I didn’t get a chance to see it.
by stlfan on Sep 8, 2008 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My list
I took a look at this from what does the organization need (MI Help, Relief Pitching), and how the players filled the need. Based on what I’ve seen from MO, he places too much value to trade his guys away (or anyone from the farm for that matter).
1. C. Rasmus – Even without being a need position, his skills shine through.
2. L. Lynn – From what I hear, he has the best chance to become a solid starter.
3. N. Vasquez – Need and power, also has a nice average.
4. P. Kozma – Need and skills.
5. C. Perez – I can’t think of anything we need more than a closer right now.
6. J. Todd – If he can stick as a starter I have him higher.
7. D. Jones – Think Rasmus light.
8. C. Mortenson – I think he can be a good RP in the majors, eventually.
9. M. Boggs – May make a solid innings eater some day.
10. J. Garcia – Could be higher if he was healthy.
B. Anderson misses out because he is overvalued by Mo, and has no use in this organization. B. Wallace falls into the same category, This team is built on solid defense, and first base is locked up for a long time (I hope).
by CJW on Sep 8, 2008 3:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
just because there is a need for them
doesnt make them a better player and i think they would be Lunhow’s guys and not Mo’s…but i have to give it to you it takes some cojones to not rank a .337/.427/.530 hitter in the top 10 prospects…
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on Sep 8, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
KRod for CY?
Any thoughts from you guys on the possibility of KRod winning the AL CY this year? I don’t know if he has a realistic shot, but the top of year he is having is exactly what a reliever needs to have in order to be considered for CY. Just food for though.
by StLHugo on Sep 8, 2008 3:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the save
is the least helpful stat ever.
That said, he’ll probably get a lot of votes. I recently saw an article arguing that this was the worst season of his career, though. He sure is being helped out by being on a great team in a bad division.
by Phizzle on Sep 8, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
could he win?
sure…but he isnt having the season that Joe Nathan is having, as far as closers go, he just plays on a better team…
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on Sep 8, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The list
1. Perez- Has shown stuff and had success in a prominent role at the highest level.
2. Rasmus- Too many skills not to make it but his slumps concern me. May have a Steve Finley ceiling but will take a while to get there.
3. Garcia- I’d take him off if he DIDN’T have surgery. If he does he should be okay in a year or two.
4. Todd- I’m probably too impressed by his minor league success but jeez he’s been good everywhere.
5. Jones- Still think it’ll take him a while but he’s got all the tools and seems determined to learn what he has to.
6. Anderson- Only 21. If he improves in AAA next year he’s at least a great trading chip.
7. Wallace- Speaking of trading chips. I don’t want a bad defensive infielder behind the kind of pitchers we throw out there. If he’s not a third baseman let’s trade him for a real one.
Vasquez is next on the list followed distantly by Kozma and Mortenson. The latter two really belong listed with the large group of guys behind them who I think will have major league careers but don’t project as impact players.
Sure is refreshing to have prospects to be excited about again.
by easy on Sep 8, 2008 4:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wallace
it keeps coming up that he is a bad defensive 3b. Now is that really the truth, or do people think that he is a bad 3B because some people seem to think he does not have the “body” to stick at 3B?
Wallace still reminds me of Ron Cey. Different body types, but neither are the prototypes for third baggers. I would be happy if the Walrus ending up being the type of defensive 3B as the Penguin was.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Sep 8, 2008 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't it suck if
he turned out to be as horrible defensively as we were told Troy Glaus was?
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Sep 8, 2008 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he didn't look that bad at D when I saw him play this summer
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 8, 2008 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with you Matty
I do wonder if he isn’t being body type stereotyped too. I’d like to give him a full season at third next year and then make a decision. If he really is bad defensively then I’d want to trade him to a team that needs a first baseman and has a young infielder with big time potential. If he really is okay at 3b then bring him on.
by easy on Sep 8, 2008 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A guy who puts up a 1.109 OPS at AA, two months out of college,
has got to be more than the number 7 prospect in the system — unless the system is Tampa Bay’s.
My list, with the basic criterion that a player must be eligible for 2009 Rookie of the Year to count as a prospect:
1. Raz
2. Wally, and I’m not sure he won’t be #1 by this time next year
3. Perez — see RotY comment
4. Anderson — possibly more valuable as trade bait than replacing Molina, but catchers who can hit .300 don’t come along every day
5. Jones — looks like he’s figured it out
6. Vasquez — tools, tools, tools, and a fast learner from the looks of it
7. Todd — TINSTAAPP, but what a start!
Off the list, but I hope I’m wrong: Motte (a major-league reliever needs more than one pitch, even if it’s Mach 2, and his slider is not there yet; also injury concerns because of his ultra-violent motion), Garcia (will go back on the list once TJ has been shown to be successful), Boggs (not enough there), Kozma (will be useful but no more). Sleeper candidates: Salas and Steve Hill.
by StanTheManFan on Sep 8, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As some may know
Nico/Niko Vasquez is one of my favorite prospects. When he isn’t fighting crime or saving baby birds, his hitting excites me from either MIF spot (if he should have to move to 2B). He struggled pretty bad after being promoted late in the season, but more than a few publications have said that he is one of the best non-1st round draft picks in baseball.
From my personal opinion, I think he has a better chance of sticking in the big leagues than Kozma does. Kozma is passable as a contact hitter and is praised for his glove work, but his errors seem to be mounting. This could just be a product of extraordinary range, getting to balls that most wouldn’t. Or, it could be a case of a guy that is struggling at his most praised tool.
Either way, Vasquez is an exciting player. How he performs in the first half of next season will be a telling sign to me on how quickly he can be moved through the system.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 4:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I hope he can be put on the fast track and maybe see him as a sept. callup in a year, unless we actually sign some good mif’s.
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 8, 2008 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big Mac
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AnUZmMkeDgmzK2f3UhFtRHE5nYcB?slug=jp-mcgwireanniversary090808&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
:(
by SoonerfanTU on Sep 8, 2008 4:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
lol
Passan was what, 12 years old in 1998?
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was 15 ;)
Man that summer was fun, I don’t care one bit that it is now “tarnished” Big Mac is one of my favorite Cards Memories. I remember the first game I saw after he became a Card. I asked the guy sitting next to me something along the lines of “who is that?” He explained that Mac was our new power hitting first basemen and could hit lots of HRs, sure enough he hit a HR that game. Though I think that game is also why I hate the pirates because I beleive we lost to them that day. Meh it was years ago but man I liked watching him. Not as much as I like Pujols now, but very much the same idea, just one cool guy. I loved his son’s reaction to 62, I loved Sosa being there for it. It was just a great game.
by StLHugo on Sep 8, 2008 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am with you
I would probably not be into baseball today if it wasn’t for Big Mac. The strike made me stop watching baseball and Mac brought me back just like he did for a lot of others fans.
by FlimtotheFlam on Sep 8, 2008 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1998 was the summer i fell in love with baseball.
and i in no way feel cheated by any of it. i would have never paid attention to baseball if my dad didn’t keep insisting that i sit and watch everyday with him to watch history. thank you to big mac and sosa…and my dad. :)
by launchshuttle on Sep 8, 2008 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Yeah. I mean, Mac didn’t kill anyone or anything like that was horrifically wrong, so I don’t care from that end. Even if he did take steroids it wasn’t illegal in baseball at the time, so I don’t care from the baseball end. I was at the game where he hit 62, and it still is my fondest memory at a Cards game. Ain’t no one gonna’ take that away from me.
by saladdays on Sep 8, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols and Molina
Pujols hits HRs at about the same rate as Molina Ks, 14.4 AB/HR vs 15.1 AB/K
Kinda weird coincidence
by StLHugo on Sep 8, 2008 4:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Big week coming up
anyone else concerned that the white hot Albert Pujols tweaked his back on Saturday and then banged his leg up on Sunday?
The last thing this team needs during this crucial stretch is for Pujols to be less than Pujolsian.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not too worried about it
our chances are pretty low anyway… plus he’s a tough customer
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 8, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And his golf tourney was today
so he was on his foot all day smoozing, plus if he swings a golf club like I do, he might have hit his foot again.
by ubeddie on Sep 8, 2008 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garcia - STL med report
Per the Cards website medical report, Garcia was scheduled to have Tommy John surgery today. I wouldn’t count on Jaime in 2009
by ubeddie on Sep 8, 2008 9:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that's pretty typical for a pitcher
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Sep 8, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coupla updates
Phillies lead Marlins 8-4 top 8
Brewers lead Reds 4-1 bottom 5
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Sep 8, 2008 9:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
boooooo
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 8, 2008 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Football drives me bonkers
The sheer number of commercials is just staggering.
Kosuke Fukudome: $55 million .265 .365 .386
Skip Schumaker: $Free .307 .366 .421
by joker24 on Sep 8, 2008 10:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wish Comcast made an adblocker like Firefox.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Sep 8, 2008 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
4.5!!!!
Man, that was awesome. I heart Jay Bruce.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 11:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
do not want to get my hopes up too much because the Phillies are playing well
but that loss for the Brewers gives me a little bit of hope
When the time comes for me to not be bothered by losing that is when I know it is time to retire my fandom
by ANDYAK47 on Sep 8, 2008 11:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Game over - Cincy wins 5-4
It’s probably too much to ask that this is the start of the wheels coming off for Milwaukee. They’re clearly not the same team as last year in that regard. But at least it’s a game we don’t have to make up on them.
by BTown Birds fan on Sep 8, 2008 11:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The start
was a week ago. If the Padres didn’t choke away chances to score in the last 4 innings of their game on Saturday, they’d be on a 1-7 stretch right now.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 8, 2008 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
glorious
FWIW, I think Skip catches that fly ball that got over braun’s head. Actually, I think even Chris Duncan catches that ball… we have to catch the brewers, if nothing else, to keep braun from winning the MVP.
it’s suppan vs some rookie tomorrow, then CC vs Arroyo on Wednesday. The good news is that sabathia won’t pitch against the phillies, and sheets will face either hamels or moyer…
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 9, 2008 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When the ball was hit
I screamed ‘Grand Slam!’, and then when it bounced off the wall I was just excited two runs scored.
I turned to my better half when they showed the replay and said “Man, Braun should have caught that ball. He just gave up on it.”
I’ve already penciled in Wednesday as a win for the Brewers, so it is up to the Cardinals to finally close the deal for once and sweep the Cubs with their season on the line.
If this team can get motivated and rip off a 5-1 stretch the rest of the week (3-0 Cubs, 2-1 Pirates), I think they’ll find themselves 5 back in the division and no worse than 2 back in the Wild Card.
I’ll be heartbroken if this team is given yet another chance to pull of this improbable season and they choke it away.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 9, 2008 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
prepare to be heart borken HL
our pen is unreliable, our outfield is a mess. we just don’t have the horses to close the deal.
but damnit it all if i ain’t gonna be right there with you hoping that against all odds, our birds are ready to soar right into Roctober!
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Sep 9, 2008 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
barton comes back tomorrow
at the beginning of the year I was sure he’d play a huge part in the 2008 story. There is still time, assuming he is given the opportunity (and he rises to it).
An 8-9 inning mix of Carp-Perez (or perez-carp, or motte-carp, or motte-perez) might be fun as well.
Never give up! and stop predicting depressing stuff!!!
the ******* plane has crashed into the mountain.
by SleepyCA on Sep 9, 2008 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
awesome
Brewers blew it… reds are becoming a late inning comeback team; we better make a note of that.
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 8, 2008 11:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we could waive Izzy to the Brewwers. Great one-two tandum - Izzy and Gagne for the strtetch run
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Sep 9, 2008 1:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs


















