cards vs cards
back home but still a bit travel-addled; here are some jumbled thoughts on a thursday morning:
ryan franklin has closed out the last two victories, while chris perez watches. . . . it's hardly even worth discussing this, because we know how it all shakes down. tony would probably say he's trying to protect the kid, who has struggled a little bit in recent outings; he doesn't want perez to end the season on a bad note and spend all off-season with negative thoughts in his head. i tend to doubt perez is that fragile emotionally, and if he is that fragile then he's never gonna survive at this level anyway. i would let the kid pitch through his struggles (which haven't been that severe, to be truthful about it), take a few lumps if he has to, and find out some more things about the adjustments he needs to make. and of course, there's always the possibility that perez might actually come in and pitch well . . . . . . just a fan's opinion.
if they can manage 2 wins in the last 4 games, the cardinals will post their best win total record since the 100-win seasons of 2004-05, surpassing the 83-win total of the 2006 world-champion club. if this year’s team faced the ’06s in a 7-game series, who do you think would win? 2006 would get 2 starts out of carpenter, giving them a very big advantage, but the other 5 starts would come from suppan, weaver, and reyes; the 2008s would likely have the better starting pitcher in all 5 of those games. they’d also have big advantages in right field (ludwick) and catcher (molina 2008 vs molina 2006). the 06s would have clear position advantages at ss (eckstein v izturis) and left field (healthy duncan vs schumaker), and they’d have spiezio on the bench. both teams would rely on kids in the bullpen . . . . it’d be a very close matchup, but i’ll take the 2008s for their deeper rotation.
since i made my last post the cards won their 81st game, averting a second straight losing season. when the off-season began last october, i noted that the cardinal franchise has suffered back-to-back losing seasons only once in the last 49 years, that being 1994-95. prior to that, you have to go all the way back to 1958-59. since they started winning championships 80+ years ago, the franchise has only suffered one real slump ---- the late 1950s, when they finished under .500 five times in six years.
they’ve raised their team batting average to .278 with four games to go, matching the figure posted by the 2004 club; well actually they’re just a caterpillar’s eyelash behind, at .2778 (vs the ’04 club’s .2779). as i mentioned the other day, the 2003 club has the highest batting average of the last 54 years, at .279 (.2785 to be precise about it); to surpass that, the cards will need to bat about .310 the rest of the way --- something on the order of 40 base hits in the last 4 games (assuming they all are regulation length; if there’s an extra-inning game, they’ll need more hits). they have batted about the same at home this year (.278) as on the road (.277).
’nother interesting fact about this team: despite the frustration over high LOB totals and missed opportunities in key games, they’re gonna finished 2nd in the league in batting w/ men in RISP and 2 outs. the pirates lead the league at .269; cards are second at .263, nearly 30 points above the league average (.235). in another "clutch" category --- batting avg in innings 7 through 9 --- st louis leads the league in batting and is 3d in slugging. we tend to remember (and agonize over) the times when the team came up one basehit short, but on the whole you’d have to say this team cashed in its fair share of the time. unlike the high-average teams that i grew up watching in the 1970s, the 2008 cardinals can do more than hit singles.
non-cardinal-related item: the twins have won the first 2 of their 3-game showdown with the white sox. if they complete the sweep tonight they’ll pull into a tie for first place in the loss column, and half a game ahead overall. the twins wrap up the schedule vs the royals, while the chisox have to host cleveland, which has surged back to .500 after a very slow start; minnesota obviously has the easier weekend. if they’re still within half a game after sunday, the chisox will have to play a makeup game on monday --- and it then might be necessary for those two clubs to face off on tuesday for a winner-take-all game to decide the division. let’s go twins --- should the white sox let it slip away, the ozzie guillen video footage could be priceless.
in the nl wild-card chase, one of the remaining contestants --- either the brewers or the mets --- is going to be guilty of choking two years in a row. both fired their managers this year in hopes of avoiding same; the brewers are 4-4 under their new skipper, while the mets are nearly a .600 team (53-37) under jerry manuel. but they’re only 11-11 in september, and they’ve dropped 5 of their last 6 . . . . . they finish at home against the marlins. their last game of the year will include a lot of farewell-shea-stadium ceremonies; can you imagine if they close the place out with a loss that knocks them out of the playoffs? not that i’m wishing, mind you . . . . .
the mets make for an interesting comparison with the cardinals. they’ve got a lot in common with our team ---- an ailing ace (pedro), a studs-n-scrubs lineup (fernando tatis, damion easley, endy chavez, and marlon anderson all have played significant roles for the mets this year), and an injured closer (wagner) resulting in a lot of blown saves. like our team, the mets have largely stayed out of the free agent market since the ’06 nlcs; their only significant acquisition came via trade, the johan santana blockbuster. if they miss the playoffs again this year, they’ll be under enormous pressure to spend obscene amounts on ben sheets, cc sabathia, etc etc.; indeed, they’re gonna be under pressure to do that whether or not they make the playoffs. it’s pretty likely that both new york teams will be aggressive buyers in the starting-pitcher free agent market; gonna be difficult to find value there this winter.
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Woo Hoo! First Poster!
Good thoughts LB. I never would have guessed that the Cards were able to do anything in the clutch this year. I hate it when facts get in the way of perception.
Anybody else get read the article on the Post-Dispatch today about last night’s game? I thought Waino’s comment on Motte was great.
Wainwright appreciates that Motte is a man of few words. “All he does is sit in his locker and look at his socks all day long,” Wainwright said. “He leaves everybody alone, which is what rookies are taught to do.”
by birdo rojo on
Sep 25, 2008 8:58 AM EDT
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motte
last night was the first time i had gotten a chance to see him; wow!
i know he has had some trouble with control at times, but that last hitter, i thought motte was going to bite his lips off chewing whatever that was in his mouth; very intense
Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.
by bigcardsfan5 on
Sep 25, 2008 9:15 AM EDT
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that kind of fits
the “serial killer in the bullpen” motif, as well. Quiet guy, kept to himself, talked to his socks sometimes.
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
by SleepyCA on
Sep 25, 2008 1:28 PM EDT
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The completely subjective problem with Perez . . .
I don’t know if anyone else feels this way, but in his last few outings Perez just looks completely lost out there at the first sign of trouble. Lots of dejected looks on his face, almost none of the expected visible excitement of being a September call-up, the way he carries himself he almost looks more like a frustrated veteran feeling his talent slip away rather than a young prospect with a bright future.
by bailorg on
Sep 25, 2008 9:32 AM EDT
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he is not a september call-up
he pitched may 17- july 19 and august 6-present for a total of 39 games…but he is probably scared to death that at the first sign of trouble he is going to get yanked by TLR…how could anyone pitch with confidence like that esp as a rookie.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on
Sep 25, 2008 11:42 AM EDT
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+1
it IS rediculous.
and im a huge tony fan
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Sep 25, 2008 1:16 PM EDT
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he's probably going to have to earn TRL's trust for anther team
because he sure as hell isn’t going to get the chance wearing the BOB’s.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on
Sep 25, 2008 10:09 PM EDT
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2006 v 2008
Position by position based on BR page:
SP: Edge 2008: Carp, Suppan, Weaver, Reyes, Marquis vs Wainwright, Lohse, Looper, Wellemeyer, Pineiro
RP: Edge 2006: Wainwright, Looper, Hancock, Izzy, Johnson, Flores vs Franklin, McClellan, Springer, Thompson, Villone, Flores
C: Edge 2008: Molina vs Molina
1B: Slight Edge 2006: .331/.431/.671 49 HR vs .350/.455/.631 34 HR
2B: Draw: Miles vs Kennedy (same slg, miles leads in OBP by .10)
3B: Edge 2006: Rolen vs Glaus (.296/.369/.518 vs .266/.367/.474)
SS: Edge 2006: Eckstein vs Izturis
LF: Edge 2008: Taguchi vs Schumaker (again based on BR listing only)
CF: Edge 2008: Edmonds vs Ankiel
RF: Edge 2008: Encarnacion vs Ludwick (anyone know how JuanE is doing?)
Bench: Edge 2006: Bennett, Spiezio, Duncan vs LaRue, Miles, Duncan
Notes: RP is 3 top IP righties and top IP lefties, Bench is backup C and top 2 AB guys not listed as a starter
Giving 1 point for each edge and .5 for the slight edge you get:
2006 4.5 vs 20008 5
These are some very even teams though, the OF was a vast upgrade but the IF was a downgrade all around
by StLHugo on
Sep 25, 2008 9:41 AM EDT
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I will argue your Rolen vs. Glaus.....
Rolen was hurt in 2006 at the end of the year.
88 Sept AB’
.227 AVG/ .229 OBP/ .398 SLG/ .697 OPS/ 6 doubles/ 3 HR
Gluas 2008 Sept
50 AB’s
.220 AVG/ .316 OBP/ SLG/ .816 OPS/ 2 doubles/ 4 HR
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 12:53 PM EDT
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on the other hand
Ankiel was hurt more than Edmonds was in ’06
go rays
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Sep 25, 2008 1:30 PM EDT
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Wasn't Sep exclusive
I didn’t limit this to Sept only, I went over the entire season, Rolen was better for the Majority of the season.
by StLHugo on
Sep 25, 2008 3:05 PM EDT
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throw it to the pitcher
Poor Scherzer getting roasted by his own dad (a true Cards fan, down to the analysis) made me think of a crucial aspect of that WS— who brought the PFP and who didn’t. So I gave stats a shot. Hope it adds up.
Errors
# 06/08
P 7/10
C 7/12
1B 7/6
2B 17/13
3B 19/10
SS 15/13
LF 6/7
CF 11/8
RF 9/5
Tot 98/84
‘06: Rolen and Miles only players with double-digit errors.
’08: Granted, there’s the crazy playing-time issue, but there it is: only Molina and Izturis with double-digit errors. Unless Glaus and Kennedy trip all over themselves in the last games, they’ll be the only ones.
Of course we’ll never find out if ’08 can execute in post-season play.
- Y.2.2
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on
Sep 25, 2008 2:22 PM EDT
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kennedy wasn't even on that team
that’s when we traded for belliard halfway through the year.
by Glowsticks on
Sep 25, 2008 3:07 PM EDT
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I feel like the coaches are trying to prepare us for a breakup with Perez.
The comments in the paper about his conditioning, likening him to Ponson. The talk of sending him back to Memphis next year. The constant talk of all the improvements he needs to make. This seems like a familiar path. Most bizarre of all is why TLR is so opposed to seeing what Perez has got. The cost savings by having a cheap closer are immense. Obviously Franklin isn’t the long term (or even short term) answer so why use him in that role?
Perez could obviously do some things better. Is there anything that he needs to practice in Memphis? I’m not so sure that’s the case yet it feels like TLR is attempting to send another message to the organization.
by azruavatar on
Sep 25, 2008 9:44 AM EDT
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I agree
add in the comments by Al a couple of games back. Makes it sound like the TLR camp wants K-Rod. It’s as though the Izzy talk is to get everyone to say. Well instead of Izzy how about K-Rod?
by Harknights on
Sep 25, 2008 9:58 AM EDT
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yeah, thats a great idea team
lets get the walking injury concern for 15 mil a year and neglect the two rotation spots, the pen help we need, and a starting SS and 2B so we can have a nice toy.
because hey, Carpenter for sure is coming back, and heck we have miles and Lopez.
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Sep 25, 2008 1:22 PM EDT
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Could it be this is TLR's rookie test?
Work on your slider in terms of consistent break and location, and get in better shape in the offseason. If he loses some weight and doesn’t sulk, he passes. If he sulks, he fails. IMO this type of test is why they seem to be down on Rasmus. When they sent him to Memphis they wanted to see an attitude along the lines of “I’ll show you I’m ready. I’ll hit .400 and force you to call me up.” Instead he got angry and underperformed. TLR seems to believe that players have to have the drive to continue to improve, no matter what they’ve done. Seems to be a “test” they’re having Felipe Lopez take as well. Any thoughts?
by vinniefromjersey on
Sep 25, 2008 11:11 AM EDT
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all of these tests
and the stuffed-full dog house antics are wearing thin with me…i dont know if TLR is just getting older and grumpier or if i just have removed my blinders but over the last 2 years it seems that everyone not name pujols or miles has been tested and/or been in tony’s dog house…if there are more people in your dog house than not then you have to start looking at yourself as the cause of all the problems…or am i missing something?
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on
Sep 25, 2008 11:56 AM EDT
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part of what i heard
is memphis was trying to remake rasmus into a slap hitter or something
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Sep 25, 2008 1:24 PM EDT
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I still don't understand the weight thing
sure am glad we don’t have Sabathia, vintage Colon, vintage Schmidt. The list could go on and on.
Why does Perez have to be lean? Just sounds like an excuse to me.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Sep 25, 2008 5:28 PM EDT
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Because everyone performs better when they are in shape.....
It doesn’t hurt Perez to drop a few… I don’t get why you are against him being in better shape?
Albert could play 15 pounds heavier, but why not have him be in the best shape possible like he always strives to do.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 6:05 PM EDT
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how do we not know he is in shape?
some people just can’t be lean?
he could be one of those people, if not, i agree
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Sep 25, 2008 7:17 PM EDT
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Just so you know, you do not have to be slim and trim to be in shape....
Um, I love CC just the way he is. And his mom is ginormous too. That has a bit to do with it too.
I’m thin myself, and believe me, you don’t want me running a leg of the relay.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Sep 25, 2008 7:41 PM EDT
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yeah, I know
that was supposed to be my way of saying that. it didnt come off as smoothly as i wanted it to
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Sep 25, 2008 8:05 PM EDT
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And I really was addressing this to ICbirdfan....
I seem to have serious problems with the simple tasks. You know, like hitting the “reply” on the post I’m actually replying to…..
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Sep 25, 2008 8:37 PM EDT
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Plus
I don’t exactly remember anyone telling Yadi he had to lose a few pounds while he was putting up his sub .600 OPS and injuring his knee. I bet Perez has lower body fat than Aaron Miles as well.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Sep 25, 2008 11:42 PM EDT
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I did not say he is out of shape...
You note I said he will never look like Adam Wainwright because he just is not built that way. I did not say Perez is a fat out of shape slob.
I said I bet he can drop about 10-12 pounds, which could help him a great deal. Trust me sometimes you don’t realize how much losing that extra 10 helps. Look I don’t think Perez’s physical appearance will look a ton different with 10 pounds off him.
You see what I am getting at? He is in good shap, but this is MLB baseball… The highest level, look if losing 10 pounds helped me be that much better I would do it. Look at Yadi, he lost about 15 pounds last off season and I honestly think it helped him have one of his better years.. It’s not the only reason but ask Yadi how much better it felt not lugging around 15 extra pounds.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 9:04 PM EDT
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this has been Yadda's worst season behind the plate
just sayin’
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on
Sep 25, 2008 10:13 PM EDT
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I don't remember
TLR or anyone else calling out Yadi publicly for his weight. He was pretty large for two full years and apparently made the decision to drop weight on his own.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Sep 25, 2008 11:44 PM EDT
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Anyone want to guess what would have happend if Tim Lincecum was our rookie?
Seriously, would he have been allowed to start?
Would he have had to get more on top of the ball?
Would he have had to stand taller and throw down on the ball instead of striding towards the plate like he does?
by DriverZn on
Sep 25, 2008 6:12 PM EDT
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Well, I'd want him to stand at least 5'9".
If they ever do anything to change his mechanics without consulting his father, they should be shot.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Sep 25, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
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talking down your prospects
I’ve never seen a team publicly talk down it’s prospects than the Cards. It’s sickening. Yes, the comments mostly come from Dan and especially Al … but these guys are employed by the Cards and most certainly derive opinions from coaches (especially those repeated ad nauseum).
by jjray on
Sep 25, 2008 11:15 AM EDT
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i think you know the answer, az...
TLR obvious wants to get a veteran closer over the off-season so he puts Franklin out there who no one wants to see in that spot so it gives an ILLUSION of a great need heading into the winter…if he put Perez out there and he did well he would have no basis to need a new closer…he is like david-freakin’-copperfield…
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on
Sep 25, 2008 11:50 AM EDT
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Well, if that were the game plan by TLR and it worked..........
MO is a complete dumbass who should not be in the position he is in.
MO must be able to evaluate talent better than that. Your plan pretty much says MO has no clue who is even on the roster and thinks since Franklin sucks, he might as well pay a gagillion dollars for K-Rod.
I don’t know, but paying for a closer is a big waste of cash.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 11:53 AM EDT
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it is a giant waste
MO obviously knows who is on the roster but when we only chance we get to see Perez is when he allows something bad and then he is taken out right away it leaves a bad impression no matter who you are…i didnt say it would work with MO but it might work with the majority of fans…if you took a poll of 100 Cardinals fans at Busch and asked if they should get KRod or let Perez close next year id say 70-80% will choose KRod…fan out cry and manager demands can put a lot of pressure on a young GM whether it is the right thing to do or not…
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on
Sep 25, 2008 12:28 PM EDT
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true, but I hope MO has a plan and sticks to it....
I hope fan outcry will not get him to drop a ton of cash on KROD…..
Look KRod is good, but bull pen guys are so year to year it’s crazy.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 12:44 PM EDT
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it sure seems that way
it seems most, no matter the talent, burn out or get hurt eventually
15 mil for that guy just seems like a huge, stupid risk. Especially considering we will have like 30 mil this offseason and will need at least one SP, one of 2B and SS, and left handed relief pitching
not to mention everyone and their mother say he is an injury risk waiting to happen, is ANOTHER 15 mil on the Dl really what this team needs?
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Sep 25, 2008 1:27 PM EDT
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i vote a tlr
version of a temper tantrum. he only has a few years and wants improvement faster. he prides himself on setting out to do whatever it takes to win each game. i’d say that wasn’t the case this year. more attempts to manipulate via lineups and, yes, way too many messages delivered in inappropriate ways
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on
Sep 25, 2008 9:45 PM EDT
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I'm sure of it
Tony and Dunc want Brian Fuentes and would prefer to trade some of these major-league ready players (Perez, Rasmus) for “proven” vets.
As far as belonging in Memphis, who do we have in our pen who is distinctly better than Perez? McClellan, Springer (who’s a FA and may retire) and Motte if you’re being generous. No one else. It makes no sense whatsoever to send him to Memphis.
There’s little doubt in my mind that Tony’s preference is to dump Perez, in spite of the obvious financial advantages the team would have by paying its closer less than $400 K instead of $8 M for the same performance.
by chuckb on
Sep 25, 2008 1:09 PM EDT
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Same performance?
Surely you jest.
by SoonerfanTU on
Sep 25, 2008 3:12 PM EDT
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you are correct
Perez had a much better year than the 8M dollar man Izzy.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Sep 25, 2008 5:30 PM EDT
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I was talking about next year.....
Anybody we went and got, and paid alot of money too, would likely be considerably better than Perez.
And as for this year…..for the contract amount yes, Perez was probably better. But Izzy was hurt, and they both saved around the same % of games.
by SoonerfanTU on
Sep 25, 2008 5:39 PM EDT
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Fuentes won't be
KRod would, if he stayed healthy, but not Brian Fuentes. So, you’d get the same performance for 20 times the price. Sounds like a sound financial decision to me!
by chuckb on
Sep 25, 2008 6:13 PM EDT
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Fuentes is an interesting pitcher.....
he also has a stretch of ineffectiveness every year. It’s why he’s been in and out of the closer role with the Rockies for the last 2 years. He will go for a premium; he’s likely not to be worth it.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Sep 25, 2008 8:41 PM EDT
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what I dont like is
that it seems like management is just waiting (licking their chops) for him to fail.
at least thats what it seems like.
They will go out of their way to let scrubs like Ponson pitch, or give Izzy a million chances (no knock on Izzy) but they just dont want to give this kid any kind of shot unless he is amazing out of the gate.
this team has no place for rookies unless they come up like Pujols and a lot of great players dont, and its fucking ridiculous they expect them to, and will probably ship out good, great and useful players because of it.
but what the hell do they care they wont be around
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Sep 25, 2008 1:21 PM EDT
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I don't agree....
If the Card want to trade Perez, it’s in their best interest to be successful at the end of the season. Also if he is a bull pen arm of the future they do not want to see him fail either.
So the Cards don’t want Perez to fail for two reasons.
I know as a fan you want to see the guy succeed and do well. But don’t look for crazy conspiracy theories. It just does not make sense for them to want Perez to fail.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 1:40 PM EDT
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i understand and I dont mean to come off as a bitter nutcase tinfoil guy
but it does seem to be a pattern lately of not supporting these minor league guys.
Im not saying they are all great but there has been zero love for them.
Look at how tony has treated Perez with all the “young pitcher” stuff and sending him down"to work on his slider"
and the whole ordeal with Rasmus
and the comments he made about no impact players on the farm
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Sep 25, 2008 1:43 PM EDT
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No love??? Come on
They are obsessed with Motte… Yeah it took an appearance or two at the MLB level but Duncan and Tony love Motte. Just look at how he has been used.
Perez as Sleepy pointed out has throw a lot this year as well. I know earlier in the year the argument about Perez was he was struggling at times because he was a closer and not a 6th inning guy. Well he has faltered a bit when put in the closer role his 2nd time up.
Also Larussa liked Perez enough he has given him a decent amount of innings.
Motte was a closer in Memphis and he came up and has pitched all over the place without any issues.
There are some cases where yes, it appears they are not embracing young players with open arms but it’s not as bad as you make it.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 1:48 PM EDT
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they have to love Motte
he has came in and flat out dominated, if he would have had a hiccup would they have kept sending him out there?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Sep 25, 2008 5:31 PM EDT
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and yet we all still hear he's not good enough
he needs a better slider they say. or a better curve they say. he’ll never be successful with just one 101MPH pitch they say.
Marino Rivera strongly disagrees with their two pitch mantra.
don’t anyone fool yourselves. this is classic TRL & Dave speak. we want vets! damn these rookies & their cost controlled price tags! i hate to say this, i really do. but it’s time to cut ties with both of them. they are doing nothing but holding down the progress of the entire organization.
and i swear the next person that brings up that Tony played Albert as a rookie needs to lose posting privileges for a while. if not for Bobby BO going down, we may never have known just how great Albert is. he did the same thing this spring to Colby that he wanted to do to Albert, but Bobby BO went on the DL & forced his hand. unlike the very crowded outfield this spring that allowed Colby to go suck on a egg in Memphis.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on
Sep 25, 2008 10:26 PM EDT
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and im not even that enamored with Perez
I dont think the guy is a stud closer right now, and I dont think he has shown all that much…
-but he is better than Franklin
-he needs experience and the games dont count right now.
-he probably isnt going to learn anything new at AAA
- any closer we get in FA will be expensive and we have a lot of holes, so lets see what Perez has got first before we commit a lot of money and years to a closer
it just doesnt make sense to me why he isnt being given a shot right now, unless its just the confidence thing.
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Sep 25, 2008 1:47 PM EDT
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I think Perez can be very good.
Ya know what, yes Franklin is not idea in the 9th. He will be around next year. Lets hope everyone pulls their head out (including Perez.. get in better shape and throw strikes) so Ryan Franklin is not pitching in the 7th, 8th, or 9th next year unless there is a very good reason….. ie KMAC, Motte, Kinnery, Perez are tired and need a break
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 1:50 PM EDT
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that is what gets me the most
the games don’t count , so why won’t they give him a chance?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Sep 25, 2008 5:32 PM EDT
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Because if he fails.....
Which he was beginning to do quite often, that could scar him.
On the other hand, why does he have to close to get better? He just needs ML innings, shouldn’t matter when he gets them.
by SoonerfanTU on
Sep 25, 2008 5:40 PM EDT
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agree....
shouldn’t matter where Perez pitches at this point as long as he get opportunities to pitch.
Hell Motte was a closer at Memphis and he has pitched all over the place and done well. I never did buy the Perez is struggling because he is not throwing the 9th inning.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 6:07 PM EDT
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if that's true
and we know he’s better than Franklin, why not put him out there in the 9th?
If it doesn’t matter when he gets them, we should at least give the team a better chance to close one out.
And, if he is scarred by blowing a couple of games, is he truly closer material anyway?
by chuckb on
Sep 25, 2008 6:15 PM EDT
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I agree....
As I posted down below. At this point just let him pitch the 9th since that is his ultimate role.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 9:00 PM EDT
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Umm.....
I don’t agree that he is currently better than Franklin.
You don’t let him close, b/c blowing a save is alot worse of a way of struggling then giving up a run in the 7th.
It is past being just a couple of games. I don’t have the numbers, but the dude has been struggling for several weeks now. If other bullpen guys hadn’t bailed him out, there is a good chance, off the top of my head, that he’d have blown something like 6 of his last 8 save opps. That is no bueno.
by SoonerfanTU on
Sep 26, 2008 10:14 AM EDT
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I don't have the numbers
so let me substitute some that suit my argument.
Off the top of your head you can honestly recall the last 8 times he pitched, whether he pitched well and whether there was even a save to blow? You’re just making things up at that point.
by azruavatar on
Sep 26, 2008 5:17 PM EDT
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cards are one thing
tlr is another. he wants it next year and fuentes is more likely, in his m ind, to get what he wants for fuentes than the prez. that’s why he needs to go. we need someone with a longer time-frame/horizon for winning.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on
Sep 25, 2008 9:48 PM EDT
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Maybe we have a closer in Motte already...
I like his demeanor a lot more.
If that were true we could parlay Perez & Anderson into something nice for 2009…
"Why does he keep saying that?"
by Red Blazer on
Sep 25, 2008 9:53 AM EDT
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It is certainly possible that Perez, Anderson and Rasmus
could all be gone in 2009, given the Cardinals shopping list.
by tbell61 on
Sep 25, 2008 9:55 AM EDT
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I'd be stunned if we had them all in ST next year.
by chuckb on
Sep 25, 2008 1:09 PM EDT
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that sucks.....
Rasmus would be the biggest dissappointment in my opinion.
Rasmus’s value is way more than Anderson and Perez in my opinion.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 1:27 PM EDT
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it would
I pray we dont pull a Kazmir for Victor Zambrano deal.
Or a Haren for Mulder.
when are they going to realize the way baseball is moving?
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Sep 25, 2008 1:31 PM EDT
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I don't think you'd be disappointed.....
With what we’d get in return. It’d be huge, whatever it was.
by SoonerfanTU on
Sep 25, 2008 3:13 PM EDT
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I think I'm with you here
Motte is going to be the closer.
go rays
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Sep 25, 2008 1:40 PM EDT
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go mets
i pray it’s the mets that make the playoffs, so at least they’re under LESS pressure in the SP market. if their rotation suddenly steps up, they’ll probably be less inclined to go spend ludicrous amounts of money. see: cards ’06 to ’07.
i feel for the brewers, but meh.
by RedbirdAvenger on
Sep 25, 2008 9:56 AM EDT
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Go Brewers......
I will pull for an NL Central team……
I really don’t want to hear about Jose Reyes, David Wright, and Carlos Delgado the MVP because he led his team to the playoffs.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 11:18 AM EDT
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better than ryan braun
and his untucking friends.
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
by SleepyCA on
Sep 25, 2008 1:33 PM EDT
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I can't stand the Mets....
Maybe Houston can sneek in.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 1:41 PM EDT
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it's funny
Those scrums with the Cards were this year. Now I’d rather see them make their long shot than anyone else. (As they say, long shot is lonnnng.)
- Y.2.2
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on
Sep 25, 2008 1:48 PM EDT
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Royals
have won 11 of 13 games. Not sure they will be as easy for the Twins this weekend as you might think.
Twins still have to win tonight to make this weekend interesting. Twins are 8-1 against the White Sox in the Metrodome this year.
by Youneverknow on
Sep 25, 2008 11:33 AM EDT
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am I the only one
Hoping for the Twins? I hate not rooting for the NL, but the options aren’t jumping out at me. (Well, other than the Phils, but I’m indifferent to ’em.)
Speaking of the AL, Tim Kurkjian’s deadpan Central projection with two tie-breakers was pure gold. Was laughing too hard to transcribe, unfortunately.
- Y.2.2
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - HBT
by Yadi2Second on
Sep 25, 2008 11:36 AM EDT
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i usually hate the NL teams
im rooting for the Angels because I think they have the best shot at beating the cubs
if not them Im rooting for the Rays, because I like them the most in the AL
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Sep 25, 2008 1:33 PM EDT
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+1
Re: the Angels.
- Y.2.2
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on
Sep 25, 2008 1:36 PM EDT
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I love NL baseball
but outside of the Cards, the D-Backs, Marlins, and Rockies are the only teams in the league I can stand. There are a lot more teams I would prefer to win the WS in the AL.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Sep 25, 2008 5:35 PM EDT
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The Royals have been playing pretty well recently, so I don’t think the Twins are going to have a cake walk.
by saladdays on
Sep 25, 2008 11:38 AM EDT
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Closing Games
You’re right LB, it does not harm at all to let Perez close out games. We are already starting players out of position, Felipe Lopez is batting 4th, down is up, up is down. Why can’t TLR and Duncan just say, “Chris – you’re our guy for the rest of the year, win or lose. We want to see what you’ve got. Show us you’re a big league reliever.”
Instead, we get Franklin. Damn.
by lightbulb on
Sep 25, 2008 12:05 PM EDT
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it just shows how stubborn they are
hey, we will play OUR guys, wherever and whenever we want.
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Sep 25, 2008 1:34 PM EDT
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perez has thrown 65 professional innings this year
that’s 11 more than last year, in 10 more appearances, and 35 IP more than the year before— and almost 40 of perez’ innings have been at the MLB level, with many being in extremely high-pressure situations.
Combine that with the fact that he’s fat, 22, a fireballer, and having control issues, and that these games don’t mean anything (and actually, losing them might help the club) and it makes sense to keep him on a short leash/give him extra rest/not use him in high-pressure situations. I don’t think I could bear losing him and Garcia both to TJ in one year.
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
by SleepyCA on
Sep 25, 2008 1:41 PM EDT
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hummm.....
Thanks for making me think of something I really should have thought about had I not been a dumb ass………
Maybe Perez is tired? Tired from too many innings, and tired due to him not being in top physical condition. I don’t think the Cards expect him to come back looking like Wainer, he just does not have that kind of build. However it would be nice for him to trim about 10-12 pound off his body to hold up over a long MLB season.
Maybe he has been tired, so he drops his arm slot a bit leading to less control. Historically as I pointed out earlier and has been reported at Futureredbirds he has had control issues. I am sure being tired does not help a man who already has a history of control issues.
The same thing happens to Zambrano each year. He gets tired, his arm slot drops a bit too much and he gets more wild and can’t locate. Zambano is not an over the top thrower just like Perez and his FB actually moves like Perez’s does.
Sleepy you did a good job of putting actuall thought into that… I appreciate it. I had not thought about that.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 1:57 PM EDT
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If Perez is too tired to close
he is probably too tired to pitch. If that is their reason, shut his ass down already.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Sep 25, 2008 5:36 PM EDT
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maybe they should?
I don’t get your obsession with him closing? I want him to get innings at this point if he is not worn out. It’s meaningless anyway, hell I could care less where he throws right now. Worry aobut his role in 2009.
Perez needs to work on his strike throwing ability right now.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 6:08 PM EDT
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I am not obsesses with him closing
i just think if he is the closer of the future, then they should let him learn in the role in a meaningless last week of the season
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Sep 25, 2008 7:19 PM EDT
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that's right
if the correct decision is to shut him down, let’s shut him down. However, if he can pitch in the 8th, he can pitch in the 9th. Tony’s removing him from the “closer” role, which Tony never could bring himself to say in the first place, was preposterous.
by chuckb on
Sep 25, 2008 6:17 PM EDT
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Hey I don't disagree.....
Just let Perez throw the 9th, at this point who cares if he blows a save…. TLR can’t be that mad considering he is playing Aaron Mile, Adam Kennedy, and Brendan Ryan in the OF.
I am not convinced TLR is that concerned with the outcome at this point.
I would have let Perez get himself out of the jam he started the other night.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 8:59 PM EDT
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Here is why I don't like him at closer right now.......
He has not gotten many opportunities to come in and STL has not been in that many close games the last month. I almost like Perez getting more shots to pitch, than sit on the bench and wait to close out a game that means nothing at the end of the year. Yeah it’s great he gets a chance to pitch in his future role, but I would rather have him get more chances to gain experience… Pitch in some 6th inning jams, maybe pitch the 7th & 8th…
At this point I am more concerned about him getting more reps than Ryan Franklin who honestly does not need anymore work, he is what he is. I want Chris Perez to get a chance to see some game situations and work on thins in a live game.
Sometimes it feels like Perez hit some long droughts in terms of action because he was the “Closer”, and here TLR is running out guys like Villone, Franklin.. etc while Perez is there sitting on his hands waiting for a “possible” save situation..
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 9:12 PM EDT
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We have had three closers this year
Izzy; franklin, and Perez. The Save:Blown Save ratio is
63% Izzy
63% Perez
70% Franklin
Perez got credit for the hold when he was struggling the other night and Franklin was instered. The way he looked on the mound it looked I have no doubt in my mind that it would have been another blown save. (truth be told, I still thought franklin was going to cough it up.) He looked lost on the mound. Kinda like Izzy did when people were screaming at Tony for not pulling Izzy.
Perez looked fine as the closer until the skid in which he didn’t pitch in many games are save situations. Snice then he has looked lost. He has suffered a few blown saves and has been pull earlier to save a blown save. (wiether it was to same him or the Win doesn’t really matter.)
by Evilfrog on
Sep 25, 2008 12:18 PM EDT
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I don't know where to find the stats......
I want to know what percent of the time Perez throws first pitch strikes… Swining or Looking doesn’t matter.
He has seemed to have one hell of a time throwing a first pitch strike. Heck, throw the ball down the middle. The last game he was totally aiming the ball at times just trying to throw strikes.
It was well documented that Perez has had control issues. I saw somewhere a BB/9 greater than 3 is not very good.
College average= 6.13 BB/9
Single A average= 5.83 BB/9
AA average= 6.20 BB/9
AAA average= 6.31 BB/9
MLB average= 4.94 BB/9
Chris just needs some confidence and he needs to find the strike zone a bit more. The faster he gets ahead in the count the sooner he can throw that running fastball that baters will more so forced to swing at.
I think Chris has a good future if he can throw strikes. His inability to throw strikes is holding him back.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 12:27 PM EDT
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I would agree with that
I think he is our best option as a closer next year. But he needs to find a bit more control. And I think the long layoff may had contributed to losing that strike zone.
by Evilfrog on
Sep 25, 2008 12:30 PM EDT
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A contrary view
Is it even possible that Tony is protecting Perez?
The kid has struggled lately with control and given Evilfrog’s analysis, hasn’t exactly set the world on fire in terms of results. If we continue to run him out there and he gets blasted that really hurts his confidence going into next year if you ask me. I think they’re just setting up the offseason, not so subtly telling him what he needs to do and hopping he tears it up in spring training next year.
by birdo rojo on
Sep 25, 2008 12:39 PM EDT
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maybe/maybe not...........
We will never know Tony/Dunc/Marty Mason’s reasoning……………
Maybe Perez is exhibiting some bad habits and they don’t want him to keep them going. Maybe it’s best for him to work on the side on a few things… I don’t know.
I am not privy to the conversations.
He needs to throw more strikes and attack the zone. When he does this with his ability he should be fine.
by ICbirdfan on
Sep 25, 2008 12:46 PM EDT
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I completely agree
We will never know what their motivations are. I just think we all need to remember that there’s at least an equal chance that Tony and Dave are trying to do what’s best for the team as pursue personal agendas.
by birdo rojo on
Sep 25, 2008 12:55 PM EDT
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But, but.....
I thought Perez was SO much better than the other two?
by SoonerfanTU on
Sep 25, 2008 3:15 PM EDT
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FIPs
Perez — 4.21
Franklin — 4.53
Isringhausen — 4.94
Using save % to evaluate pitchers is a poor way to compare their performances. The save rule is beyond stupid. Remember when Adam Wainwright blew a save in the 2006 NLCS by entering the game w/ a runner on third and giving up a SAC fly? Stupid rule!
by chuckb on
Sep 25, 2008 6:20 PM EDT
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actually, perez' first blown save
was exactly the same situation. Against the sox, piniero gave up a “triple” on the fly ball that ankiel misplayed. Perez entered the game with a man on 3rd, no outs, and promptly gave up a sac fly.
Of course, he then got a ground ball out and a single and then walked the next 3 guys, giving the sox the lead, but that BS was on ankiel/pineiro, not Perez.
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
by SleepyCA on
Sep 25, 2008 9:37 PM EDT
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Agree to disagree.....
I’m not saying saves, or save % is the end all, be all stat, but that is what a CLOSER is paid to do, close out games and get saves. Why do I care how bad they are when they blow said save? I don’t. You either save it, or you don’t.
by SoonerfanTU on
Sep 26, 2008 10:16 AM EDT
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2006 vs 2008
I’d have to go with the ‘08 cards (well, when they have their ideal lineups) since they have a lot of hitting and a deep starting rotation. if it’s the piecemeal lineup ’08 cards though, I think the answer is obvious.
go rays
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Sep 25, 2008 1:41 PM EDT
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basically I think 2008 team had more potential
but had too many problems. the 2006 team is better overall, since they had few injuries and less chaos.
go rays
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Sep 25, 2008 3:59 PM EDT
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I'd take the 2006 team.....
Better closer, better front end pitching, and a more clutch lineup. That team really did buy into the never quit attitude. Not sure the 2008 team has, or at least, not to that level.
by SoonerfanTU on
Sep 25, 2008 3:16 PM EDT
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more clutch in what way?
a comparison of “clutch stats”, from Baseball-reference:
stat 2006 2008 Advantage RISP .781 .784 2008 (push?) 2 out, RISP .765 .784 2008 late/close .737 .753 2008
And that is with albert pujols hitting .397 w/RISP in 2006 (1.338 OPS!), vs a measly .327(1.155 OPS) this year. Remind me again how in the world Pujols wasn’t the 2006 MVP? And, of course, 2008 cesar izturis’ 105 PA’s of .198BA/.512 OPS RISP performance. Yeesh.
It does seem like the team has had a hard time (really, no ability to) come from behind this year, but it’s apparently not for lack of clutch hitting. That late/close stat blows my mind, since I was sure 2006 would blow us away in that category, but it’s the opposite. 2006 does have a very slight advantage in the “within 1/2/3 runs” categories, but it’s never as large of a difference as the above categories, and 2008 leads in the “tie game” category.
Agree about the pitching, though that might be different if Motte and Kinney were up earlier and KMC/springer (and maybe 2008 carpenter) were used more appropriately, and of course assuming we are playing at a time when AW is not hurt.
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
by SleepyCA on
Sep 25, 2008 9:12 PM EDT
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Down the stretch.....
The 2006 team got hits, rbi’s, and made plays when they needed to. This 2008 team has not.
by SoonerfanTU on
Sep 26, 2008 10:17 AM EDT
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down the stretch?
the 2006 team went 3-9 from Sep 20 to the end of the season, with a 7 game losing streak. They were 12-17 in September overall, and 13-15 in August. They just missed out on a collapse of historical proportions.
Are we talking about the same team?
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
by SleepyCA on
Sep 26, 2008 1:34 PM EDT
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You really shouldn’t bother trying to counter SoonerfanTU’s “observations” with actual facts.
They just get in the way of his point.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
by Mr Clean on
Sep 26, 2008 2:10 PM EDT
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