The...Wisdom? Of the Pitcher Batting Eighth

by thegodfather on Sep 23, 2008 12:36 AM EDT Comment 47 comments

First time posting anything on VEB so here goes nothing!

As we all know, Tony LaRussa has elected to bat the pitcher eighth through the 2008 season. This idea is not new to St. Louis and the fans have grown used to it. In all likelihood, it’s not going to change anytime soon either. However, I really still wonder whether or not this is a practical strategy. My gut says it is not. Logically, the more the pitcher comes up to bat, the worse, right? . . . Right?

The basis of the pitcher hitting eighth theory is that it will give Albert more at bats with runners on. I’m going to say, without any evidence to back it up, that this part of the idea probably works. Albert will step into the box with runners on more often with a position player batting ninth. Nonetheless, one must examine the consequences. How many more times will the pitcher come to bat with runners on?

I realize, in presenting this argument fairly, that I must point out that the 8 spot in the lineup is not always the pitcher. Obviously, sometimes it is a pinch hitter or in the event of a double switch, a position player. Now that I’ve got the disclaimer out of the way, let’s move on.

Here is a table of useful stats (from baseball reference):

	PAs	OBP	OPS	RBI	R
Batting 1st	737	.345	.735	56	103
Batting 2nd	709	.358	.835	92	117
Batting 3rd	701	.435	1.044	115	103
Batting 4th	691	.340	.832	104	98
Batting 5th	675	.359	.822	102	76
Batting 6th	661	.347	.742	77	62
Batting 7th	638	.350	.747	58	58
Batting 8th	618	.251	.546	52	37
Batting 9th	596	.317	.635	36	67

As you can see, the argument in Tony’s favor is that the 9 spot has scored 67 runs, which is more than the 6, 7, or 8 spot. Tony would likely say (of course, not in so many words) that this is because Albert has the chance to drive in the 9 place hitter. If you look only at this, then yes, go ahead and bat the pitcher eighth. Here’s a list of reasons NOT to bat the pitcher eighth:

- The 8 spot with its .546 OPS has 22 more plate appearances than the 9 thus far in the season. That’s 22 more than anyone should want.

- The 8 spot has 16 more RBIs in those 22 more PAs. Noticing the 89 point OPS difference, that means that the 8 spot comes up with runners on much more often than the 9 spot. That’s not good when pitchers hit eighth. (I know this should be obvious since the pitcher “hits” before the 9 spot comes up, just making an observation)

- The idea of a “double lead-off” only works when the 9 spot hitter gets on base. The 9 spot this year gets on base at an anemic .317 clip with a pathetic .635 OPS. If these hitters get on, it’s a single, and with our most common leadoff hitter being Skip “Groundball to Second” Schumaker (2.9 G/F ratio, 17 GIDP), the so-called double lead-off is bad idea.

- The 1 spot in the order grounds into the most double plays (21) of any spot in the lineup. A pitcher batting ninth could (and should) sacrifice the runner to second, eliminating the double play opportunity. This also means more RISP opportunities for the top of the order (and, of course, the reinstated 8 place hitter).

- Albert Pujols doesn’t get pitches to hit with runners on. He has 218 ABs with runners on and 103 with RISP. In comparison, Ryan Howard has 287 and 169. Lance Berkman has 248 and 132 (Stats from ESPN). After all, why make the overall lineup weaker if it isn’t going to help Albert much at all.

In conclusion, I see no logical reason to bat the pitcher eighth. Maybe Tony LaRussa has some sort of secret he’s not telling us, but I doubt it. The man is a baseball genius, but this is not one of his better ideas. I say next season he should swallow his pride (hah, like that’ll happen) and resume batting the pitcher ninth. That is the most productive way to construct a lineup. What do you guys think?

Poll

Is the pitcher hitting eighth a good strategy (would you do it if you were manager)?

Yes

36 votes

No

34 votes

Maybe...I don't really know

12 votes

82 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 47 comments

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Comments

I don't know if you have read past posts on this subject

but I certainly think it is a much better option to hit the pitcher 9th and bat El Hombre 4th. The only way the pitcher batting 8th is close to a good idea is if you have so many high OBP hitters you can actually put one ninth. Then it is still questionable. When you look at 141 PA discrepancy between 1st and 9th, it just doesn’t make sense to put a high OBP guy there.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 23, 2008 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

El Hombre batting third

I buy the argument to ensure that Pujols bats in the first inning. Much rather see him up in the first with two outs and nobody on than leading off the second. Got to get your best batter up against the starter early.

The argument in the fanpost that the pitcher gets extra at-bats over the course of the season doesn’t strike me as right. If you look at the TPA:G for a quick n’ dirty measure of that, the only ones who look out of line to league averages (just eyeballing it) are Wainwright and Looper, who’ve pinch hit 3 and 5 times, respectively. If anything, batting the pitcher 8th gives the manager an opportunity to pinch-hit for him in higher leverage situations, before the traditional 8th hitter has made an out.

by liam on Sep 24, 2008 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Help me understand

why you would rather have Pujols batting with the bases empty and two out than the bases empty and nobody out.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 25, 2008 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would still rather the pitcher come up last.

In 2006 Cardinal pitchers averaged 2.35 PA/game while this year it is 2.44 (379PA/161G versus 388PA/159G according to BR). I know that over the course of the season, thats only a difference of about 15 PAs total, but I still think that is reason enough not to bat the pitchr eighth.

I agree with giveml, I don’t see why it would be better to have Albert on with 2 outs and no one on in the first than no outs and none on in the second. I’m not disagreeing that he should bat third, but that reasoning is beyond me.

Piñata - something children beat relentlessly with bats. Piñeiro - .858 OPS against. Some call it irony; I call it destiny.

by thegodfather on Sep 25, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Simulations

I thought I read somewhere that simulations show that, using the same 9 players, A lineup with the pitcher (=worst batter) batting 8th on average scores more runs than the lineup with the pitcher batting 9th (although the difference is not that big) . I took that as “empirical proof” that Tony does the right thing.

by Woodwork on Sep 23, 2008 11:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

But the catch with that

is that you have to use the same 9 players. As often as Tony shakes up the lineup, I don’t see how this can be useful.

Personally, I don’t think it is going to make that much of a difference. The Mang is a consistent enough hitter that the pitcher’s batting spot isn’t going to make that much of a difference to him. He did just fine all of those years before the pitcher hit 8th. The thing is pitchers have stopped throwing to him in key situations so certain production numbers of his have gone down while his walks have gone up.

2004: 133runs/123rbi/84bb
2005: 129runs/117rbi/97bb
2006: 119runs/137rbi/92bb
2007: 99runs/103rbi/99bb
2008: 94runs/106rbi/99bb (obviously still subject to increase)

I think the best decision would be for TLR to move the pitcher back to the 9th spot next season (not gonna happen) and then see how Albert’s numbers compare from ‘08. If the numbers are better with the pitcher 8th put him back there. If not, he stays in the 9 slot. The one thing is ’09 will almost certainly be Tony’s last season with the club, so those who are not a fan of the pitcher batting 8th probably won’t be subjected to it for too much longer.

Delgado an MVP candidate!........seriously!? Wait Ryan Howard is now too!?...Ah WTF?!?!

by RunninRedbird on Sep 23, 2008 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love it.....

Only way it doesn’t make since, IMO, is if we were to acquire a bat that rivaled Pujols. If you bat Pujols 4th, and you assume that somebody other than Pujols has to bat leadoff, you are still giving more AB’s (in the 2 and 3 holes) to players that aren’t anywhere near as good as Albert. TLR said that hitting Albert 3rd, over 4th, gets him approximately 30 more AB’s over the course of the season.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 23, 2008 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

30 is too many

if you are really talking about PAs instead of ABs. Right now our three spot has nine fewer PAs than the two spot and ten more than the four spot.

I still don’t like all those two out and nobody on PAs for Albert in the first inning, but this argument is recent enough that I don’t have a lot of enthusiasm for pursuing it.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 23, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

mathematically speaking, it's 18 PAs/season on average

by Phizzle on Sep 23, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Then TLR is a liar.....

Cause he was quoted as saying about 30.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 23, 2008 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did you read the post?

What TLR may or may not have said is irrelevant. The 3 spot, as of a couple days ago, had just 10 more PAs than the 4 spot. At the end of the season, the 3 spot will not even be close to having 30 more ABs than the 4 spot.

Pinata - something children beat relentlessly with bats. Pineiro - . . . Some call it irony; I call it destiny.

by thegodfather on Sep 23, 2008 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

In this context

ABs is a meaningless measurement as it is dependent on walks, HBPs, SFs, etc. In fact, the three spot has 30 ABs less than the fourth spot because of Albert’s walk rate. I don’t think TLR is so much a liar, but typically clueless about the numbers he likes to throw around. There are so many people who think whatever he says is gospel that he doesn’t really have to have his facts straight.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 24, 2008 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He isn't talking about.....

The 3 spot vs the 4 spot. He’s talking Albert in the 3 spot, vs Albert in the 4 spot.

There is a difference.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 24, 2008 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LaRussa doesn't always have to be right

He is human. He makes mistakes like everyone else. Who is batting makes little difference. As of today, the 3 spot has 10 more PAs than the 4 spot. If you prefer to discuss ABs, though this is altered by Pujols’ walk rate, the 3 spot actually has 30 less than the 4. I don’t see how moving Albert to the 4 spot would reduce his PAs or ABs by the amount you are suggesting it would. I’m not necessarily adocating this decison, my post was about the pitcher’s spot, but I don’t understand the basis of your argument, or exaclty what you are arguing for.

TLR may have said 30 more ABs over the course of the season. If this is the case, he was wrong. I don’t see any evidence or logical reasoning that suggests that Albert batting 4th would reduce his total number of ABs by 30. If I am completely missing the point, let me know, or if I am wrong, will someone please explain how?

Pinata - something children beat relentlessly with bats. Pineiro - . . . Some call it irony; I call it destiny.

by thegodfather on Sep 24, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's funny

playing softball here is SoCal I’ve run into a number of teams that would avoid batting the worse hitter last.

In fact there are a number of things that slow pitch softball teams that MLB teams are still not.

20 years ago I saw teams
bat the best hitter higher in the lineup
talk about 2nd leadoff
work to turn the lineup over.

I know it’s not apples to apples. Still I think it’s funny that these aren’t new ideas just new in MLB.

by Harknights on Sep 24, 2008 10:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I just cast

the tie breaking vote. bat the pitcher 9th!

go rays

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 24, 2008 1:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Now if we could only get TLR to see this...

Delgado an MVP candidate!........seriously!? Wait Ryan Howard is now too!?...Ah WTF?!?!

by RunninRedbird on Sep 24, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pujols in the first inning

with two outs and nobody on is still hitting like Pujols with a .388/.483/.592/1.075 line. The problem is that in 58 PAs in that situation he has a grand total of one HR and four runs scored. His ISO is down to .204 from . 289 in every other situation. Otherwise, he has hit one HR every 14.3 PAs with the bases empty. He hasn’t scored once after any of his nine walks.

My suggestion is that you improve the offense more by putting someone in the three spot in front of Pujols that will actually get pitched to because of the threat of Pujols on deck. I mean, how many hitters are there that could actually give Pujols protection? It’s a very small number and most of those kind of guys are either unavailable or unaffordable. Obviously our 4th and 5th positions with their .820 and .830 OPSes aren’t getting it done, so the best solution is to have runners on base in front of him. The obvious three candidate is Ludwick as he hit .339/.407/.701/1.108 batting in front of Albert this year with one XBH every five ABs. For comparison, he hit .284/.356/.564/.920 batting after Albert.

The additional benefit is to substitute a potential .400ish OBP in front of him instead of the .317 OBP hitter in the nine hole. Hell, keep the pitcher 8th, but bat Pujols 4th.

I know these are small samples, but if anyone has an easy way to look at previous years please share the data. I can’t look at any more gamelogs for a while.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 25, 2008 11:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hmm.....

My suggestion is that you improve the offense more by putting someone in the three spot in front of Pujols that will actually get pitched to because of the threat of Pujols on deck.

Isn’t that what we already do with the 2 spot, since we really don’t have a good, true #2 hitter either? You can’t keep stacking guys in front of Albert that shouldn’t be getting more AB’s than him, that just doesn’t make sense. You know, it’d be great to have Albert bat 5th too, if we had the kind of talent to put in the 2, 3, and 4 holes. But we don’t. It’s enough of a stretch trying to find somebody to hit in front of him as it is. No need to bump him down one more spot, and give one more lesser hitter more AB’s than him.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 26, 2008 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Albert should bat 4th

“Isn’t that what we already do with the 2 spot” – No not really, because no matter who is batting 2nd, the opposing pitcher is going to have to face Albert in the 1st inning. Also, as I explained in an earlier comment, there is an insignificant difference in the number of PAs between the 3rd and 4th spots in the order.

Currently, if the 1 and 2 hitters fail to reach, AP bats with 2 outs and none on. This, most of the time, is a waste of a PA for him. Now, imagine a lineup where you use the “double lead off” by batting speedy, high OBP hitters 1st and 2nd. Then, you bat the best hitter on the team not named Pujols (in our case, Ryan Ludwick) 3rd. This means that the opposing pitcher has the opportunity to get out of the first without having to face El Hombre. I have a feeling this would mean TONS of pitches to hit for the 3 hitter. Then, even if the 1st 3 batters go in order, you get Albert batting with none on and no outs to start the 2nd, which is much better than none on and 2 outs in the 1st because he will be driven in much more often. You could say that then he wouldn’t have “protection,” but really if they want to walk him to lead off an inning, that’s fine with me. I trust our 5-7 hitters to get the job done most of the time.

Piñata - something children beat relentlessly with bats. Piñeiro - .858 OPS against. Some call it irony; I call it destiny.

by thegodfather on Sep 26, 2008 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you can't

“keep stacking guys in front of Albert that shouldn’t be getting more ABs than him” then why don’t you advocate Pujols batting leadoff? That is what the lineup toys say, it would keep him from getting pitched around, and he would get an additional 37 PAs. I would rather stack a guy with a .390 OBP in front of him (Ludwick’s number hitting in front of Pujols) than a guy with a .322 OBP (Iz2).

If TLR announced he was going to hit Albert fourth you would cite it as one more example of his genius.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 26, 2008 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

At some point.....

You have to just go with what you have, even if it means having one guy in front of Albert, that probably shouldn’t be. Skip does fine in the leadoff spot against righties. I just don’t think the team has a very good option for the #2 hole (though Lopez has been good there), and I think we have a bunch of guys that really should be hitting 5-6th (Ludwick, Ank, and Glaus).

And TLR wouldn’t make that switch, b/c it doesn’t make any sense to do so right now. And I don’t see us making any moves that would make it a smart move any time soon either. It isn’t like he is stuck to the idea though, when he had a different roster make-up, he batted the pitcher 9th for several seasons, even with Pujols if I’m not mistaken.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 26, 2008 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

SoonerfanTU

Is there a reason you seemingly won’t respond to any of my comments aimed at you? Are my points not valid enough to be worth your time discussing?

Piñata - something children beat relentlessly with bats. Piñeiro - .858 OPS against. Some call it irony; I call it destiny.

by thegodfather on Sep 26, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I noticed this too....Hmmm....

Delgado an MVP candidate!........seriously!? Wait Ryan Howard is now too!?...Ah WTF?!?!

by RunninRedbird on Sep 26, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's that his responses aren't worth reading

Just pretend he responded, “Whatever Tony does is perfect.”

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 26, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I saw more "attacks" than comments.....

Not to mention…..you are saying the same thing that others are saying. Take my responses to them, and apply them to the few statements you actually made.

mmkay?

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 26, 2008 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Riiight

Seriously, what reason do I have to “attack” you? Everything I said was legitimate, I’m sorry if I came across as offensive. The points I made were in response to your arguments where you overlooked certain details that didn’t go along with what you wanted to say. I was simply interested in a civil discussion. If you took the “did you read the post” comment to be offensive, you should lighten up. It was a serious question because you cited a false statistic as true just because TLR said it and the real stat was in my original post.

Also, I really don’t appreciate your condesceding tone and I have a strong feeling that others here will agree with me.

Piñata - something children beat relentlessly with bats. Piñeiro - .858 OPS against. Some call it irony; I call it destiny.

by thegodfather on Sep 26, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The part I didn't like.....

Was the “TLR isn’t always right” line. Like I think TLR makes the right decisions every single time.

But I’ve voiced my opinion on that. TLR has a way of managing, and he has been very successful with it over the years. You can’t look at an individual move, within an individual game, and try to judge it. Because it might not work that one time, but if it works 9 out of the next 9 times, then his overall methodology is successful. Baseball isn’t like hoops, or especially football. You have to apply something over 163 games. Not 16, or even 80.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 26, 2008 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The only reason I said that

“LaRussa doesn’t always have to be right” is because you cited his quote of 30 ABs over the statistical evidence to the contrary that I used. I wasn’t talking about his managerial style aside from his, IMO, poor choice to bat the pitcher eighth. I know that you often agree with him, which is usually smart because he is a HOF manager, but to blindly accept his words as true in the face of opposing evidence is my only problem.

Piñata - something children beat relentlessly with bats. Piñeiro - .858 OPS against. Some call it irony; I call it destiny.

by thegodfather on Sep 26, 2008 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My point was.....

He probably had a different way of calculating his number. Maybe he looked at multiple years. Who knows. I just don’t think he’d do the research that I’m sure he did, and then be totally wrong about one of the biggest reasons he bats Albert 3rd. And that goes for alot of the moves TLR makes. We aren’t privy to all the info, or thoughts that he has, yet some of our fans question every move he makes. We don’t know if a player is feeling under the weather one day, or nursing a small injury. We don’t know if a pitcher was unavailable one day for one reason or another. We don’t know if a player requested a day or off, or actually said he preferred to stay in the lineup b/c he felt like he was about to turn the corner (thinking Glaus here). Stuff like that plays a BIG part in alot of game day decisions, and we generally don’t have any of that info. That is just for starters. And that is my point of TLR. If he had Ned Yost’s track record, I’d say go ahead and question moves that didn’t work out. Not all of TLR’s decisions will end up being the right ones, but I guarantee he has a good reason for nearly everything he does. And that includes who he has played in the OF lately. I’ll admit it is a bit odd, but I bet he has a reason for it, and it’s likely not to piss management off.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 26, 2008 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So, I'm a HOF major league manager and

I have a GOOD REASON for batting Jason LaRue leadoff everyday and having Joel Pineiro as my number one starter, so I guess I should go ahead and do it!

Ryan Howard: one of the most Statistically Outstanding players of all time

by RunninRedbird on Sep 26, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That doesn't even make sense.

Try making a productive contribution to this discussion.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 26, 2008 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okay

Just trying to lighten up the mood. Try having a sense of humor…

Ryan Howard: one of the most Statistically Outstanding players of all time

by RunninRedbird on Sep 27, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Again, I am not talking about

his overall managerial decisions. I’m talking about batting the pitcher 8th and saying Albert will get 30 more ABs. The rest of what you are implying I believe or don’t realize is irrelevant and I don’t like being lectured.

He obviously did NOT look up a stat. The 3 spot which is nearly always Albert (he always hits 3rd) has 30 LESS ABs than the 4 spot. That’s a 60 AB difference between what you assume is true and what IS true. If you think he may have meant PAs, fine, that’s stll only 10 more. A 20 PA difference.

If you can figure out how Tony got this number than I would agree. However, seeing as you say “who knows” how he got it, I am going to say you are blindly accepting Tony’s word as true. You ignore logical, fact-based reasoning over TLR’s word and not expect people to think you just agree with whatever he says.

Piñata - something children beat relentlessly with bats. Piñeiro - .858 OPS against. Some call it irony; I call it destiny.

by thegodfather on Sep 26, 2008 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OMG

Obviously I meant PA’s. Sorry for not being specific, I kind of figured it was common sense.

How in the world can I figure out how Tony came up with that number? I’m not privy to all the information he is, and I don’t know what he used to come up with it. I know he didn’t just make it up though. And I know he is likely more prepared to come up with a number then either you or I, agreed?

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 26, 2008 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And for the record.....

The difference in 2006 and 2007 was a little above 20 each year, I think.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 26, 2008 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wrong again....

2007 = 11
2006 = 17

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 27, 2008 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where are you getting your numbers?

Because the numbers I gave are correct from the site I’m looking at.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 27, 2008 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

baseball-refernce.com

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 27, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

er

baseball-reference.com

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 27, 2008 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, no....

I am done with this. Wow.

Piñata - something children beat relentlessly with bats. Piñeiro - .858 OPS against. Some call it irony; I call it destiny.

by thegodfather on Sep 27, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yea.....

Claiming you are more prepared to discuss this than TLR just shows are much you think of yourself. I’d be done too.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 27, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If TLR really said batting third

gets AP 30 more PAs/ABs then he is just clueless. If you blindly believe in spite of strong evidence otherwise then your opinion really doesn’t count for much, does it?

Yes, I think I am at least as capable of reading B-R as TLR. I am still waiting for some evidence to support how much you think of yourself.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 27, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Myself?

Check the poll above…..I’m not the only one that thinks this is a good idea.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 28, 2008 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Once again

you make a meaningless response. We are talking about something that has nothing to do with whether the pitcher bats eighth. I don’t care where the pitcher bats. With some of the lineups we have seen lately you could make an argument that the either Wainwright or Looper should bat higher than eighth.

You made the absurd comment to tgf that disputing TLR’s alleged claim on how many PAs Pujols would lose by batting fourth “shows how much you think of yourself.” You claim to have evidence of TLR’s beliefs and a website that supports it yet you offer nothing, as usual.

I thnk what he was done with was your combination of arrogance and ignorance.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 28, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Exactly.

Piñata - something children beat relentlessly with bats. Piñeiro - .858 OPS against. Some call it irony; I call it destiny.

by thegodfather on Sep 28, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And here I thought you were smarter than that.....

Think about it some. The lineup isn’t going to roll over the same way if you have a guy like Glaus/Ankiel hitting in front of Pujols. That is the most basic, and easiest answer to give you as to the discrepancy. I’m sure there are other things, things I haven’t thought of, that Tony factored in too.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 29, 2008 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs