monday getaway

by lboros on Sep 22, 2008 8:00 AM EDT Comment 103 comments

i’m on an early flight this morning to who knows where; don’t have time for much more than some quick odds and ends.

first thought: has any team exceeded expectations this year more than the cardinals? with a week to go, here are the teams with the most wins above and beyond their PECOTA projection:

	proj	actual	diff
angels	85	96	+11
twins	73	84	+11
astros	72	82	+10
marlins	72	81	+9
chisox	78	86	+8
blue jays	77	83	+6
cardinals	75	80	+5

well, ok; so a bunch of teams did. the twins have got to be the biggest surprise of all; they lost their top two starters (johan santana and carlos silva) and their most valuable everyday player (torii hunter) off last year’s roster, yet they’re still fighting for a playoff spot. they host the chisox tues wed and thurs this week and need a sweep to draw even in the loss column; i’d really like to see them pull it off. one playoff team’s enough for chicago.

item two: if the cards are giving any thought to signing jon garland as a free agent this off-season, i hope they stop now. because of carpenter’s very uncertain status, it seems pretty clear the team is going to shell out some money to bring in at least one pitcher, maybe more. garland is a player the cardinals showed some interest in a few years ago; he has piled up a lot of wins in his career (106 and counting), as well as lots of innings ---- 2008 is the 7th straight year he’s thrown 190 or more frames and made at least 30 starts. but garland’s peripherals, weak even when he was winning 18 games back in 2005 and 2006, are moving south rapidly. his k rate this year is the lowest of his career, his walk rate the worst since 2004; batters are hitting .299 against him this year, and he’s been defenseless away from home (5.73 era in 13 starts). he is far from a sure bet to make the postseason rotation; lackey, saunders, and santana all clearly will be in the picture, leaving garland and jered weaver to fight it ought for the 4th slot. garland’s era since the all-star break is pushing 6.00 . . . . he’s not a lick better than braden looper, but probably will command more money. stay away.

item three: as the cards cast about for a guy to play second base for them, has anybody noticed what edgar gonzalez is doing for the padres? you might recall that gonzalez posted an .824 ops at memphis last year but couldn’t get a sniff from the big-league club; the padres signed him last winter as a minor-league f.a., called him up in mid-may this year, and have liked what they see: he’s hitting .276 / .332 / .391 in 300+ at-bats, impressive numbers for a middle infielder at petco park. away from home, he is slugging .425. the rap on gonzalez was his glove, but john dewan rates him a +1 (he’s particularly good going to his left, per these figures) and his RZR ranks 5th in the league among 2bers with at least 500 innings at the position. i can’t really fault the cardinals too badly; nobody would give this guy a chance. he got his first big-league at-bat this year just a couple days before his 30th birthday. turns out he’s about a league-average player.

that’s all i got today, folks; on the road all day. game thread preprogrammed to appear about an hour before the first pitch.

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LB

serious question why are the Rays not on the list. Did anyone think they would win 90+ games?

I would hope the Cards went after Lowe and not Garland. We do need help at second base but please guys not 14million worth of help. No Cano/Roberts

The Yankee organization did a beautiful job last night saying good bye to the old park. Saw it on YES.

Oh by the way Skynyrd can still rock. 38,000 in PNC Stadium to watch them play this past Saturday night. The last five minutes of Free Bird was a fireworks grand finale. Oh, the Pirates won.

by nybirdfan on Sep 22, 2008 9:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

didn't pecota have the rays pretty high, like 88 or 89?

by mattybobo on Sep 22, 2008 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ya Know...

…it strikes me that when people get alarmed when pitchers throw ‘a lot of innings’, they typically whine about 190 – 200 innings. Call me crazy, but it wasn’t that long ago when pitchers routinely threw 250 + innings, and the overwhelming majority of them did not come up with arm injuries. Not to pick on Ibros, I see this sort of thing regularly among blogs – somecow a pitcher who goes out regularly and does his job has that very thing held against him; it’s crazy. Granted, a guy goes 12 straight years tossing 250 innings per is going to give me pause before cowsidering his addition, but we’re noit talking anything close to that kind of excess.

I, for one, do no cowsider it a mark against a starting pitcher to throw 190+ innings 7 straight years: I cowsider it a big PLUS – it means he is relatively injury-free, and can be cownted on to cowtribute to the rotation. Not all pitchers are frail, noodle armed Mark Priors out there. Slag Garland for the amount of hits he’s given up (always a lot), but he’s a gamer and is always a good bet to go 7 each times he takes the mound. I think he’s exactly the kind of guy Duncan can mold into a 15+ game winner – not through stike outs but by throwing strikes and pitching to contact and allowing the defense to record outs. Stike outs are certainly good, but they are only part of a pitcher’s overall repetoir, and it should be seen through this lens. To me, focusing on strike outs is like drafting a college basketball star based on his dunking ability. It’s crowd-pleaseing, but lacks fundamentals. I think John Garland has sound fundamentals and would be a good addition tot he Cards rotation. He’s a solid, dependable, veteran pitcher who knows how to pitch – not such a bad thing to have around.

Having said that, I don’t know that Garland does anything better than Kyle Lohse does, so if we already have Lohse I say stick with him. If we’re looking to replace Looper, I think Garland would be ok. But enough already with the fear over signing pitchers because they actually go out there and pitch. Would anybody be crazy enough to turn their noses up at Roy Halladay simply because he’s tossed a lot of inning? I’d love to have Hally on this club! One way to keep yer bull pen from getting beat up on a regular basis is to have solid starting pitchers who can go out and pitch 7 innings at a stretch on a cowsistant basis. That’s why their starters, to pitch deep into the game.

Anyways, that’s the MooCow’s 2 cents, for what its worth.

:=8)

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2008 9:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It's all well and good I guess

but there seems to be a lot of research out there that says 190 – 200 innings is kind of a tipping point. Beyond it, all hell breaks lose. Fatigue, injuries, etc.

I don’t think the innings thing is an issue with Garland – it’s just a small pointer in the larger “his peripherals suck” argument.

by sdrone on Sep 22, 2008 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Garland seems to be a guy

who either goes 7 solid innings or 2 1/3 while getting pummeled. I’ll pass on that. And I feel fairly confident that The MooCow wasn’t actually comparing Garland with Halladay, right? It could be read that way, but I just want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

by TurdFerguson on Sep 22, 2008 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Definitely Not...

….cowparing Garland and Halladay – but I’ve seen blogs where people have said to stay away because of the amount of innings he’s pitched. Ok, so you don’t sign him to a 7 year deal, but we’d be saps not to get him for 2 or 3 (if we had the chance). With Garland, I think he’d be useful, but for the price I’d just as soon pick up Lohse’s contract.

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It wasn't that long ago

That players who were told not to work out, would routinely swing at the first pitch they saw…and why not because as long as it was somewhere close to the plate the blue was going to call a strike.

While I am on it. When did pitchers routinely throw 250+ innings a year?

by Harknights on Sep 22, 2008 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

exactly--i think it has to be way more difficult to compare eras (and ERAs) than it seems

do pitchers throw the same variety of pitches now as they did back then? could hitters in general have discovered more tactics to use to work the count? what are the average pitch/out number of the different eras? is it possible, despite our romanticizing of the past, that all baseball players in general are better now than they used to be? and if not, why not? the population has risen over the years and we get more and more players from outside the U.S., so isn’t the talent pool getting bigger along with the number of teams? medicine has improved greatly, so it’s not like players are less healthy now than they were back then.
i don’t know of any baseball dark ages that dragged the game down for decades and required a renaissance to pull out of, so i’m guessing baseball has become more challenging and better over the years in general. i’d sooner believe that pitchers have to work harder to get guys out now than they did back when everybody threw 500 innings a year and did bench presses between innings.

by mattybobo on Sep 22, 2008 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

250+ innings - you're right

Even in the ‘60s, if a pitcher threw that many innings he was almost surely the team’s ace (Short, Marichal, Bunning, Gibson…). A quick look at b-r confirms. 1966, for example Young pitchers who threw 200+ innings often developed arm trouble (Cloninger, Ellsworth, Maloney come to mind), that hasn’t changed. But those who point out how much else has changed in the game that exacerbates the problem of keeping pitchers healthy are definitely on target. That’s my take, anyway.

by random on Sep 22, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Back in the Day...

…pitchers threw a lot of innings, ace or not. But they started trending down in the 80’s (still between 220-230). Just picking random guys: Bill Friend averaged 260 ip for a 10 year span 1956 – 1965; Gaylord Perry averaged 309 ip from 1966 – 1975; Wilbur Wood had a5 year span where he threw 296 innings a year, including 376 2/3 in 1972; Steve Carleton averaged 281 ip over 17 years from 1968 – 1984; Nolan Ryan averaged 256 ip over 10 years from ‘72 – ’81; even Greg Maddux averaged 241 ip from ’88 – 2001. In that 1966 year link there were 14 pitchers in the NL alone who pitched 230 ip. I can’t that ALL of them developed arm problems afterwards. In fact, I doubt very many did. The thing is most of them were used to it, and probably built up to it from their rookie years.

I dunno how much the game has changed over the years, without a true frame of reference I can’t say, but it just seems to me that we are babying our pitchers overall these days – like hothouse flowers who don’t bother to put down deep roots because they don’t have to. And, as has been pointed out, pitching mechanics have changed to the detriment of pitchers’ arms by coaches who want strike outs more than a ground ball or fly out. But that’s a rant for an-udder occasion. Point is, 190 innings is just not that large a work load for a pitcher, unless his mechanics are messed up, IMO.

:=8/

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The game has changed signfigantly

Expansion only scratches the surface on the changes.

You may say modern pitcher are hot house flowers, but it seems more logical to admit:

1. Expansion has placed more marginal pitchers in both the starting rotation and in bullpens.
2. The adoption of the designated hitter rule combined with the overall upward trend in offensive statistics shows that where a starter could once walk through portions of a major league batting order with less than maximum effort, now require maximum effort almost each and every time.

by JMedwick on Sep 22, 2008 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True, to a Point...

…in the case of expansion – but now there are also more minor league teams than ever, they too have expanded, and we are now taking in players from many different countries – the talent pool has increased along with the expansion of the League. But you’re right, there are more marginal pitchers out there than before. But marginal pitchers aside, even so-called aces are being strictly limited in pitch counts and innings pitched. Look at closers – it used to be closers pitched 2 inning or more. Then it went down to 1 inning – now many pitch less than an inning, and still they get injured – bad mechanics, not number of innings. because our pitchers can’t be expected to pitch more than 5-6 innings we now have to develop a new class of relief pitchers – and the ‘hold’ category is born. Now we need set-up men, and set-up men for the set-up men, 6th inning specialists, 7th inning specialists, specialists who only pitch to bald overweight left handed shortstops born in a state with an L , but only a third of an inning once in a blue moon – and we have to pay all these pointless specialists lost of money. There was a day when ALL pitchers were developed as starters; now we have kids who are nothing but short relievers pitching to 1 or 2 batters only developed that way out of high school – no wonder they get injured when they’re not allowed to pitch!
:=8/
AND, for icing on the cake, there are many examples of pitchers who have very bad mechanics and who are allowed to throw with bad mechanics until they break down. Go to any web site which documents the mechanics of major league pitching and you will see many major leaguers, aces or udderwise, pitching with crooked arms, bent elbows, etc, just injuries waiting to happen. Why weren’t these things corrected in the minors? ’Cause the want that extra 1-2 miles per hour they can get anyway they can because to many teams its all about how fast you throw, not how well, how many strike outs you get, not how many outs.

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you don't even have to go way back

look at the ’85 Cardinals. Andujar, Tudor, and Cox all threw over 240 innings. Andujat and Tudor were workhorses for for 4 seasons in the mid 80s and Cox threw well over 200 innings in ’85 and ’86 and 199 in ’87.

None of those pitchers had much left in em after those seasons. Maybe it is a coincidence, or maybe it is a sign that pitchers have gotten hurt from overuse for a bit longer than I would have thought.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Sep 22, 2008 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

There was also a time

…where pitchers only had to physically push themselves against about half of a lineup, where pitchers could throw to a strike zone the size of a door, where second basemen and shortstops couldn’t hit their weight, where pitchers hit for every single team in professional baseball, where ballparks had fences like this one or this one point is that baseball is different now then it was even 20 years ago. Pitchers have to work harder to throw every single pitch to every single batter for a myriad of reasons. The simple fact is that throwing a ton of innings is a red flag in today’s baseball.

Besides that, the bigger issue with Garland is that his performance is delcining as time goes along. He’s getting worse, he’s logged lots of innings already, he’s getting older…gamer or not, the dude is not a good investment whatsoever.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Sep 22, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's still not like it was back in the day when pitchers did throw

between 250 and 300 innings. That was all well and good since it was expected but they were also going with a four man rotaion. You can’t sit here and tell me it’s the innings. There are a lot of pitchers that threw over 200 innings for years and years. Hell, Phil Niekro threw 210.3 innings when he was 47, and did it 19 times in his 24 years and was over 300 innings 4 times. Nolan Ryan did over 200 innings 14 times and was over 300 twice and for good measure Fergie Jenkins was over 300 five times in 19 years. It has to be something in the mechanics that are getting taught somewhere along the lines.

by DJ4508 on Sep 22, 2008 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or

you’re using two of the greatest pitchers of all time, easy hall of famers, as precedent.

Garland/Lohse/Lowe/Burnett shouldn’t be throwing 250 innings, let alone approaching 300.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 22, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It wasn't about the fact that yes my examples are hall of famers it's the fact that is was expected.

All the pitchers threw a large amount of innings.

by DJ4508 on Sep 22, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My point exactly!

:=8)

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

All players

should were aviator sunglasses and have huge sideburns while playing, like Reggie Jackson. Sure the don’t do anything to keep them from hitting the shit out of a baseball, but having hug sunglasses must help, otherwise he wouldn’t have worn them.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 22, 2008 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Niekro

You can’t serously think a knuckleballer is a legitimate measuring stick in this discussion, can you?

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Sep 22, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Normally no

but when he’s doing it at age 47 yes I do.

by DJ4508 on Sep 23, 2008 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

many things have changed, but ML roster cosntruction didn't

seasons have become longer, starting pitchers pitch less, the pintching mount became lower and the strike zone smaller, the DH-thing changed the AL, video support of batting-strategy gives de batter somo preview… i surely miss other changes…but roster construction is still the same. why not expand rosters, say to 15 pithers en 13 position players?

Imagine the Cardinals winning it all in 2008

by Johnny64 on Sep 22, 2008 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where's my AJ Burnett drum?

I’ve got some beating to do.

by azruavatar on Sep 22, 2008 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You need

a rhythm section?

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 22, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can throw in some gregorian chant

by FunkeeC on Sep 22, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i think it was beat to death 3 years ago

by rlgosnell on Sep 22, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Garland

is scary. He’s just 29 and usually, (though I haven’t looked for this year) has a low GB rate. That’s what scares me about him — the fact that Tony and Duncan are liable to love him. Your comparison to Looper is apt IMO. I think he will receive at least 4 years and $12 M per year — think Carlos Silva money. Many Cards’ fans will want to throw around DeWitt’s $ so that they can say we tried to do something. Hopefully, if the organization does decide to throw big $ at a starter, they’re judicious in how they do it and don’t just do it so that they can say they tried. Garland’s as likely as anyone on Bernie’s list to end up a Cardinal.

by chuckb on Sep 22, 2008 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Should the Cardinals really be concerned about flyball tendencies?

Presumably, we’re going to have an above average fielder at nearly every position in the outfield. With the exception of Duncan and Stavinoha, the outfielders are all capable of tracking down most of the hits. Flyball pitchers tend to allow a few more HRs but I’m not sure that the Cardinals should really shy away from them because they allow flyballs. I’m just talking in generalities. I want nothing to do with Garland.

Also, why did the Cardinals even bother to call Stavinoha up? He’s gotten a measly 19 PAs in September while the Cardinals start Miles, Lopez and Kennedy in the outfield. I’m not a Stav supporter (I don’t think he’s more than replacement level in the bigs) but for all the talk about seeing what they have for next year, they’re squandering an opportunity. Just another example of TLR’s lip-service to playing the youngsters.

by azruavatar on Sep 22, 2008 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stav's glove has gotten a lot of use, however it has not been on his hand all the time.....

Brendan Ryan borrowed Stav’s glove. Kennedy borrowed Skips glove and I am not sure where Miles got his glove.

I agree, I don’t know why Stav and Barton have not seen much PT…….

by ICbirdfan on Sep 22, 2008 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stav = RH power bat off the bench

PH was the only reason to call him up. He plays the outfield a little better than CDunc. I don’t see Stav as having much of any chance of making a big league club. It would have been nice if Mather hadn’t broken his hand.

by ubeddie on Sep 22, 2008 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Phelps = RH power bat of the bench

Stav = ???

And even if that was the reason he was initially brought up, I’m still waiting for some kind of coherent justification for Kennedy/Lopez in the outfield while Stav rides the pine. While Stav may not be above replacement level for that position, Kennedy and Lopez definitely aren’t.

by azruavatar on Sep 22, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you're looking for a roster sleeper next year...

David Freese is your guy.

Stavinoha isn’t.

Troy Glaus was only expected to start about 120-130 games this year. They talked this past offseason about giving him some days off. Didn’t happen. I expect it to happen next year so they can keep him fresh. Add to this that Freese if playing the OF in winter ball. Start him 6 days/month at 3rd, give him 1 OF start/week. If he can proves he can handle the OF this winter, he might provide the RH pop off the bench you’re talking about.

Mather is a solid option, too. But something tells me he’ll be moved this offseason.

youneverknow

by meat on Sep 22, 2008 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Random question

Has anyone asked Glaus how his feet feel?

by sdrone on Sep 22, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

no...

but I asked him if i could feel his feet, he didn’t appreciate the request…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Sep 22, 2008 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I noticed that last year

after Looper struggled in mid-season, he got better toward the end of the season as his GB rate went DOWN. In most cases, as you well know, fewer GBs means more HRs (generally). However, Busch III also depresses homers so I’m not convinced that we need to look for pitchers who throw a lot of GBs. In Cincy or Philly — different story probably. Even so, Tony and Dunc like GB pitchers which is what will intrigue them about Garland. They’ll see a guy who’s thrown 190 innings 5 or 6 years in a row and won 80+ games in that time span, throws ground balls and think he’ll be great in the NL. I’m sure they’re very interested in Garland as one of “Duncan’s projects.”

And I’m w/ you on Stavinoha. I don’t like him a lot but it’s stupid to put him on the bench and Miles, Kennedy, and Lopez in the OF at this point. Considering the lineups Tony continues to run out there, I’m having a hard time believing this is the same guy who’s mantra was “Play a hard nine!” If he expects the players to give it all they’ve got all the time (and he should), he should expect no less from himself.

by chuckb on Sep 22, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Amen

hit the nail squarely on the head. Adam Kennedy has the best RZR in the NL of any 2B with over 500 innings at the position. Playing 2B is the only thing he can do at a major league level. To actually put him in the lineup and not play him at 2B is moronic. It is obvious to everyone except TLR and one or two posters here that Lopez is a huge defensive liability. I hope he makes ridiculous salary demands so we just walk away from him.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 22, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Flexibility

Tony has little use for a pop-gun-hitting player, who is a poor situational hitter, who is bad versus lefties, & can only play one position. He’s stuck with this player on his roster for now (and possibly all next year), so the player would basically rot if LaRussa wasn’t obsessive about getting his bench players time on the field.

Now take that same player & give him limited exposure at a couple different positions. Now he has some versatility and provides more value for Tony. When you are hamstrung with 7-8 bullpen guys, the bench has to provide all the options that the manager requires with fewer players. Having a designated pinch-runner or a defense-only 2Bman is not feasible before September.

It’d be nice if we could get someone like Schumaker to learn 2B, but it is a very difficult transition from outfield to the infield. So we’re stuck with trying to convert MIF’s to OF’s. It’s too bad we can’t get somebody good like Tony Phillips to fill Tony’s needs. (Ryan Freel, Chone Figgins, Mark DeRosa, etc.)

That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Sep 22, 2008 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I still fear that we are gonna get a starting outfield of

AK, Ryan, and Lopez at some point this season. The way things are going it will be Friday when I make my last trip to B3. If that happens I will walk out before the game is over for first time ever.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Sep 22, 2008 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why is that going to be your last trip?

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 22, 2008 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I meant for this season

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Sep 22, 2008 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

Just another example of TLR’s lip-service to playing the youngsters.

I’ve gone on this rant before, but he’s whining about an “impact player” (whatever that means) when he had a player that would have impacted the area that cost us the most during the season within the system. Is Perez K-Rod? No. Is he better than Izzy and Franklin? Yes. Here is an example of his hand being forced but him fighting it until it was too late.

Are there examples of TLR going with youngsters? Sure, there are. That said, I think that TLR’s mindset may be at odds with the organization’s new direction.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 22, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

MI

Is there any middle infielders out there we can get without over paying?

by llabyellov on Sep 22, 2008 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

In this day and age.....

You have to overpay for everything except the bottom of the barrel-type talent.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 22, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tyler Greene

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 22, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Edgar Renteria

If he is not offered arbitration than i think we should sign him. He has been dominant in the NL and weak in the AL. He had a great year in 2007 and is having a solid second half in 2008.

by FlimtotheFlam on Sep 22, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

edgar gonzalez

yeah, i noticed. I believe he was hitting even better a few weeks back.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Sep 22, 2008 10:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He put up a nice little rookie season and I'm glad he got a chance. He's at least good enough

to play a role on a major league team. Too bad it took so long for him to get a shot. The Padres do employ little brother Adrian at 1st base-I’m sure that helped some.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Sep 22, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just WHO do you guys want?

It seems whenever someone hears suggests the Cardinals go after someone in the FA market, he gets assaulted with a bunch of negative posts all pointing out how that particular guy is “not really good, injury prone, asking too much money, on the downside of his career, not worth the money,, his stats are blah, blah, blah….” etc., etc.

Let’s stick with pitchers – just who do you want? Overall I thought Kyle Lohse did a good job this season and I hope the Cardinals give him a serious offer. Can we get Sabbatha? Probably not, but let’s make a good offer. Same for K-Rod.

Let’s be aggressive and smart about improving this team NOW. We can make a big run in 2009 with a few key moves.

by ccthemovieman on Sep 22, 2008 11:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

CC is not going anywhere but NY

The Yanks have already said they’ll make him the highest paid pitcher in the league and he’s only interested in that payday. K-Rod will also demand too much for us to get him. Why bother offering money to players that we know we can’t afford? In the extreme unlikely chance that we do get one of theses guys we would be handcuffed by their salaries that we couldn’t address the other problem areas on the team.

Delgado an MVP candidate!........seriously!? Wait Ryan Howard is now too!?...Ah WTF?!?!

by RunninRedbird on Sep 22, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where did you hear that CC was only interested in the payday?

I’ve heard that he has no interest in playing in New York no matter what and that he wants to pitch on the West coast with his top two preferences being the Dodgers and Angels.

Nothin'. A handful of nothin'. You stupid mullet head. He beat you with nothin'. Just like today when he kept comin' back at me......with nothin'.

Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.

by Tackle Box on Sep 22, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, that's why we should at least make an offer

What does it hurt?

by ccthemovieman on Sep 22, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well, it probably doens't help anything either

But, I guess, as long as they don’t become distracted by it to the point they miss out on something else, then I guess there’s no harm. But, it does seem to be a waste of time if we’re not geographically his ideal and won’t be in the ballpark monetarily.

Nothin'. A handful of nothin'. You stupid mullet head. He beat you with nothin'. Just like today when he kept comin' back at me......with nothin'.

Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.

by Tackle Box on Sep 22, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Most players are interested in the payday

I don’t speak for CC, but really the only time geography comes into play is when a player is getting ready to retire. If he could get an offer larger than Santana’s he’d be crazy not to take it. The Angels are probably going to resign Texieria and I can’t see them pulling two $100+ million dollar deals in the same offseason. And the Dodgers have a chance at resigning Manny and he’ll cost them…I haven’t heard anything about CC being against playing in NY, but I don’t doubt that he would like to go the West Coast (I would too). It really depends on his priorities. Is the West Coast really so important to him that he would pass up an extra $5-7 million per year to go there? In most players cases it isn’t. But, again I can’t speak for him. He’s earned the right to play wherever he wants next year, for almost any price.

Delgado an MVP candidate!........seriously!? Wait Ryan Howard is now too!?...Ah WTF?!?!

by RunninRedbird on Sep 22, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is my point

don’t tell me who you don’t want or “can’t afford” but who you DO want and think we should/can get – pitching-wise – assuming the owner is going to open his wallet a little more this year?

by ccthemovieman on Sep 22, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

at least

you took the time to actually read today’s post.

by chuckb on Sep 22, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I always read posts that have

some common sense and thought put into them.

by ccthemovieman on Sep 22, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and yet how could you know

w/o reading them? I guess the word “always” is hyperbole, huh?

by chuckb on Sep 22, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I "appreciate" threads

with common sense and thought to put into them, is the better word. People who just ramble on and on and on with long-winded, inane drivel are a waste of time. Here’s some good advice: spend less time on the computer and more time having relationships with real people.

by ccthemovieman on Sep 22, 2008 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, get out of your mother's basement!

/beating a dead horse

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on Sep 22, 2008 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow

that may have been the most arrogant comment ever on here, and that is saying something

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Sep 22, 2008 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the real world, and the real people who live there are overrated

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Sep 22, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I ramble from time to time; I do it in real life with my friends too.

I DO put thought into my rambles though, even if it seems like I don’t.

But you probably weren’t talking to me. Right? Right?

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Sep 22, 2008 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, of course not

But I knew I’d hit a nerve with a all the socially-unfit losers who sit on the computer all night long while a game is going on, or spend hours on a thread which is nothing but an opportunity for them to bloviate to anyone who will “listen.”

Substituting unseen cyber-friends for the real thing is not healthy, was my point. Good luck!

by ccthemovieman on Sep 23, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you are just full of class

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Sep 23, 2008 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I bet you're quite the moonlighting socialite

go rays

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 24, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That made me laugh, gdm426

Thanks.

by cardsgirl95 on Sep 22, 2008 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll take the bait here...

I think most of us aren’t interested in league averagish pitchers making league average money…the feeling is these guys can be suplanted with pre-arb guys like Boggs, Mortenson etc…this is the basis behind the lack of enthusiasm for guys like Garland. Would we like to have Garland? I think most of us would say yes…just not at $10mil+/yr for 3+ years. Other guys in this camp: Lohse, Looper, Fogg, Wolf… I think as a group we’d like to see the team chime in on Sheets and CC…but expect to be significantly outbid. Now for who I’d like to see and in this order – Lowe, Burnett, Dempster, Oliver Perez. Guys who might be worthwhile on one year deals – Johnson, Maddux, Pedro.

by cardzfanbub on Sep 22, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sheets ? Maddux? Pedro?

Good lord no.

If we’re gonna bid, let’s bid on a #1.

I’ll throw in the caveat that, though Dempster isn’t a #1, I’m darn interested in him.

by sdrone on Sep 22, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm talking about one year deals here...

these guys have a ton of knowledge and experience that our young guys can feed off of…not to mention they can still get big-league hitters out. Are they at the top of my list? No, but I think they’re worth considering. I would a lot rather give one of these guys a one-year deal hoping that Garcia or Todd are ready in 2010 than have a guy like Garland blocking them through 2011.

by cardzfanbub on Sep 22, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.....

I still think we’re more likely to acquire the front end SP via trade, rather than FA. Who that’ll be, I have no idea, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Rasmus is the bait.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 22, 2008 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see Rasmus going any where.......

The Cards are not that dumb at this point. Can they expect Rick Ankiel to come back healthy? He has been injured a lot since he quit pitching…. Is Rick the future?

I think it would have to be a heck of a deal to dump Rasmus.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 22, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well yeah,

that’s just it. Rasmus is a valuable chip right now. He more than likely would bring “a heck of a deal.”

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Sep 22, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ankeil

Is a selfish young CF the future?

Sounds like if daddy does not get his way, well…………………….

Trade him!

by llabyellov on Sep 22, 2008 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hey - help a brother out?

I’m taking my 3yr old son to the game tonight. As I normally don’t do the autograph/pregame thing – where’s the best place to go to and try to get my boy a chance to get a ball or something? What time?

Thanks – sorry for the lame-o post…:)

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Sep 22, 2008 2:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Visitors stay at the Westin, I beleive.

Other than that, just get down to the field early.

I’ve never done the autograph thing myself, but from people I have talked to, that’s the easiest way.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 22, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't remember ever wanting a season to just be over with

like this season. I’m so sick of the drama, the failure, the ’we’re gonna do it in 2009’ BS, the injures, etc.

Just get it over with already.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 22, 2008 3:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I feel about the same way

but with me it’s more about wanting LaRussa to leave. Yeah he has been very sucessful but I am tired of the drama, September collapses and everything else that has hovered over this team the past 2-3 seasons. I am ready for a new era in Cardinals baseball and it must start with Tony walking out the door and bringing in a new leader for this team.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Sep 22, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't get your hopes up...

I think Tony’ll be back next year – I don’t know anything, but I think he’ll be back for one more year.

by cardzfanbub on Sep 22, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dan and Al were speculating yesterday, I think,

that D.Duncan’s contract is probably already finalized (or very close to it) and just hasn’t been announced yet. TLR’s probably not walking away from the org this offseason.

by azruavatar on Sep 22, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well if he's back then DeWitt had better pony up some money

to fill up our holes. Because it makes no sense to have Tony and Dunc back if we are just going to field a “average team” or else 2009 will mirror 2007/2008 with probably little to no chance at the playoffs. I can be ok for Tony/Dunc coming back for another season IF ownership is going to go all out to get us in the playoffs next year. They didn’t do that this season so I have HUGE doubts they will do anything big this off season. And they might as well trade Rasmus to get a “impact player” because I doubt Colby will win a job in spring training unless one of our outfeilders are hurt as long as Tony is calling the shots.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Sep 22, 2008 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So who do you want?

Who is a better manager, at this point, that we can realistically get?

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 22, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We don't need a 'better' manager

we need a manager that will be more attune to which direction the organization is going, (younger, cheaper, in-house). Mozeliak seems to plan on building this team through the draft and minor league free agents. That won’t work if you have a manager that wastes a half a year to a year of control over a player on platooning them or making them ‘earn it’ despite how awful the person they are replacing is. (see: Ryan Ludwick, Chris Perez)

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 22, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think some of you don't understand.....

What “building through the draft” really means.

It doesn’t mean you never sign FA’s. It doesn’t mean you never make trades. Really, it doesn’t mean much at all, except that you are going to try and draft better, and not give prospects away.

I mean, if we just sit pat until we have an fully in-house grown team, that is experienced enough to do anything, we’re talking at least 5-6 years from now before we’re competing for anything. And at that point…..when guys like Rasmus, Anderson, Wallace, Jones, and Kozma/Vazquez are ready, we are likely to have other holes to fill. Should we not sign FA’s at that point, and wait for another in-house option?

Nobody is saying blow the team up and trade away all our prospects. Fact is though, we don’t have a ton of SP spects that project very highly in our system. I see no future aces. I really see no true #2’s either. With Carpenter a big question mark, how can you not be behind going after a couple of good SP’s in the market, whether that be FA or trade?

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 22, 2008 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't lecture people on what they do

and do not know.

Building through the draft:
- don’t give away draft picks by signing every type A Free Agent that comes along
- draft better talent, not just organizational needs
- avoid trading top line prospects for 31 year old starting pitchers.

Just to name a few.

Maybe you don’t see an ace in Adam Wainwright. I do. Some of the guys you listed are 21-22 years old. If the organization had to wait 5 years for them to be in their peaks, they’d be just right about the same age as Skip Schumaker is.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 22, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And nobody is suggesting.....

ANY of what you listed above.

There is plenty of FA talent that is not Type A. There will be plenty of trades to be made, that don’t have to be for aging players. Mo is already getting crap for that though…..in not picking up anything at the deadline, even though a LOOGY like Ohman was commanding a guy like Motte. It doesn’t swing both ways…..you can’t have both sides. And I don’t mean you specifically HL, but alot of folks are riding that line and stepping to which ever side they like at the moment.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 22, 2008 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What is wrong with doing it in '09.....

Wasn’t that the plan entering the season?

If I had told you that Carpenter would miss the entire season, Waino would spend time on the DL, as would Albert and Ankiel, and that Izzy would get hurt and be ineffective, would you have taken the season that we had? I bet you would have. In fact, alot of people were willing to take this kind of season even if some of the stuff above hadn’t happened.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 22, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, that wasn't the plan

people mistook ‘transitional year’ as ‘Hey, it’s gonna happen next year, just wait!’.

The plan was to rebuild in entire team and system by getting younger and allowing themselves the opportunity to sign premiere FAs to fill in whatever hole is left over.

What does that other strawman have to do with anything?

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 22, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Any plan that doesn't allow.....

For a team as talented as STL to compete for a playoff spot b/c of a “rebuild”, is a terrible plan.

The actual plan, as I understand it, is to do both at the same time…..get younger/build from within, and try to win now. We aren’t the Pirates. Our fans, and our players don’t deserve 3-5 years of mediocrity b/c we want to build from within.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 22, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wasn't this season medicority?

We haven’t finished yet, .500 is within reach. 4th place in the division doesn’t exactly scream exceptional.

Last year was mediocrity.

We’re halfway there!

The problem is that there is an organizational disconnect (still). Front office wants to get better by playing younger, talented guys in key roles. Field management wants players with great numbers on the backs of their baseball cards.

Once we remedy the disconnect, the organization can start having real success with the new ‘plan’.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 22, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i no longer believe MO & Dewitt

their actions speak louder than any words they say. if they really wanted to go young, they’d go young. but they continue to cower down to Tony & Dave. all they are doing is taking one step forward, and five steps backwards.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Sep 22, 2008 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I chalk the poor finish this year.....

To injuries. We knew our SP’s would run out of gas if we didn’t land a big fish. Management “hoped” Carpenter would be that fish (not that anything substantial was likely available via trade). Didn’t work out, and Waino got hurt as well. Then Glaus missed time. Then Ankiel missed time. Duncan missed nearly all season. Barton missed time. Mather missed time. I’m not going to argue with what Rasmus might have brought to the table. Personally, I don’t think he’d have helped much, and I’m sure management has a good reason, in their mind, for not bringing him up.

But the fact is, we’re probably a playoff team, with all of the above, if Izzy is healthy all season, or if we had a bona-fide, ML-ready backup plan. We didn’t. Period.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 22, 2008 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Depends

A lot of the assessment of this year’s team lies in the eyes of the beholder.

On the one hand, you could say they were a team that, but for possibly the league’s worst “closer” situation, would have been right there in the Wild Card race up to this day (seriously add 8-9 of those 17-18 games the Cards lost in the opposition’s final at bat to the current 80 wins and you have a contender.)

On the other hand, you could say that they had so many close games to lose because they weren’t good enough to get big leads more often, thus reducing the stress on the ‘pen. (Or that their starters didn’t go deep enough into games.)

I think the first characterization is closer to the truth. Each year there are very few teams, if any, who just flat out dominate. And there are a good 4-5 teams that just flat out suck. For the rest, the differences between making it to October and not hinge on slight differences that accumulate gradually over the course of the year (better infield defense, a great closer, having that one “stopper” starter).

For the Cards, 2008 was a loss due (and I’m not surprising anyone here, I’m sure) to Izzy’s inability to convert 80+% of his save opportunities. For me, that’s it. The defense was very good, the starters were adequate, the offense was good enough to keep you close in games you hope your ’pen can close out, and you had Pujols being Pujols, all year long.

I guess I’m throwing this out there to state my case that they don’t need plus-offense from every position and big time arms throughout the lineup. A team like they had this year is good enough to get to October, with (and it’s a a big WITH) an elite closer. And yes, just getting to October is good enough, because, once there, you can shed the team parts that slowed you down during the year and make your sprint.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Sep 22, 2008 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lineup should be "rotation"

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Sep 22, 2008 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The problem is that when you step on the lumpy carpet

you flatten that spot but another lump pops up.

For example, 2007. Great bullpen, revolving door in the OF, MIF that was injured and off, terrible starting rotation.

Fix rotation, upgrade OF, get healthy IF, bullpen goes to shit.

If we are just planning on fixing this years problems, we will be behind the curve again.

Mozeliak replaced our starting 3B, SS, LF, CF, RF in the off-season, and added a starter. Some of those guys had been up since 2007 but they weren’t starters until this year. That’s a pretty massive overhaul.

If they plan on just tweaking here or there, I fear they are going to take 2 steps back.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 22, 2008 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your post

I was responding to your post about this season being “mediocrity.”

I just re-read my post and I’m not sure where I said anything about plans for next season or beyond.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Sep 23, 2008 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not to mention...

Rasmus doesn’t play for the team at all
Duncan barely contributes
Molina missing quite a bit of time
Mulder and Clement contribute nothing

by cardzfanbub on Sep 22, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, I get it now

it’s if I would be happy with the outcome of this season if I had known all those things would happen.

Yeah, I’d be thrilled. We would have gotten to see how Rasmus and Anderson handled big league pitching once Ankiel and Duncan got hurt and Molina kept missing time. We could have finally seen the flamethrowers in the Motte and Perez come up and replace Izzy and Franklin in the bullpen. The Cardinals also would have been sellers at the deadline, unloading the very friendly Kyle Lohse contract on someone for something that will help the team win beyond September 30, 2008.

But wait, none of that happened. We, instead, put IF’ers in the OF. We stuck with Izzy and Franklin for half the season. And Kyle Lohse is still here, pitching us to a 4th place finish.

Not good from an organizational standpoint.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 22, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

but the team did not want to be broken up......... blah, blah, blah!

At least that’s what Al and others say…. Mo did not make a move because the team was very close and wanted a shot at doing it themselves.

I don’t know what to really expect in 2009, but if you are going to try to build from within they better get real good at drafting… Like Milwaukee Brewer, Detroit Tigers, Arizona, Tampa type good with draft picks.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 22, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

how can the Cards ask us fans to trust them when they pull crap like this?

MI’s starting in the OF when competent replacements sit on the bench or in the minors

a manager who plays those MI’s in the OF so he could give everyone involved with the Cards the two finger salute because he didn’t get his wish of an impact bat.

the same manger putting his well being & certain players well being ahead of the common good of the team. i’ll add to this his unwillingness to admit a player is hurt, or isn’t as good as he thinks he is & ridding that player into the ground, piling up loss after loss along the way.

a pitching coach who refuses to bend & work with pitchers who don’t pitch to contact. instead forcing his will on them & ruining their reps & careers.

an owner & GM who are too scarred or too incompetent to tell the manager & pitching coach they are the boss’s, and if they don’t like it, don’t let the door hit them where the good Lord split them as they walk out the door.

i could go on, but i’m not going to. i refuse to be silent. i’m mad as hell & i just won’t take it anymore. this team has so much promise & so much to look forward to. and i just cannot believe my eyes & ears that those in charge are single handily ruining any chance this teams has of being a success. they say they want to win, they say they have the teams best interests at heart. but their actions say other wise. their actions do indeed speak louder than their words.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Sep 22, 2008 5:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Oh, snap!

Well there, gdm 426 I agree with you. I am, and have been, especially upset with the GM. This fan feels like it’s “Groundhog Day” or one of those circle stories I read with 1st grade. It just feels dysfunctional, unproductive, disconnected. Hey, they should just go ahead and make LaRussa the manager and the general manager. He knows everything about everything. It will be swell. They’ll save some bucks on Mozeliak’s salary too.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Sep 22, 2008 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think this offseason is the first true test for Mo........

I am not going to get too bent out of shape until I see what he does this off season. Last off season was good? he got rid of Rolen and got Glaus, that seems to be a pretty good move. He got Izturis on a fairly cheap one year deal (I see that as a good move, he did not get locked in to a multi year deal).

This is the offseason where it will be interesting to see what Mo does.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 22, 2008 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs