And Now, For Something Completely Different
First off, to keep things just a little bit light-hearted, let's start off with a joke, shall we?
Q: What's the difference between Memphis and St. Louis?
A: Memphis has a real centerfielder!
HaHaHa... Hmm. Not really all that funny, is it? I wonder if 'whackity schmackity doo' would have helped any? Yeah, you're right. Probably not.
Remember the days when the Cards simply could not find adequate playing time for all of their outfielders? Man, those were the days. We thought they would never end, and now, our wisdom, and our sorrow, is much increased.
By concentrating all of my willpower, I have managed to resist the urge to spew out a vitriolic rant this morning about why Colby Rasmus isn't with this team. I have decided, instead, to simply let that question go. One of two things has happened. Either a) Colby simply isn't healthy enough to be playing, and the few games he played for Palm Beach only served to illuminate that fact, or b) Rasmus has somehow already managed to build himself a doghouse with the manager and will, in all likelihood, be moved this winter due to the fact that he will never mesh well with our hall of fame grouch. (By the way, I am henceforth going to refer to this process as "getting Rolen'd".) I choose to believe that the health of Rasmus's knee simply isn't where it needs to be at the moment, because to believe otherwise, in spite of what Joe Strauss may say, would completely ruin my faith in this team and its brain trust.
So, in order to avoid being forced to begin watching the local professional football team, I choose to believe there is less subterfuge going on here than it may look like. I choose to laugh at the fact that Aaron *%$&# Miles was in center field last night. These are my choices, and I would thank you not to poke at them. I need my delusions to live.
Anyway, enough about all of that. As far as I am concerned, the offseason has officially commenced. I know, I know, I've been sounding the death knell for this team for months, you say, and I've been wrong every time. Well, whether or not I agree that I've been wrong (news flash: I don't), the fact is, it's all over now but the shouting. It was a fantastic run, and I loved most minutes of it. (I would say I loved every minute, but that just isn't true; there have been many, many moments this season that have tested my patience and belief as a Cardinal fan.) However, this team has been just a hair too snakebitten this year as far as injuries go to hang in there. We all knew coming in that absolutely everything had to go right this year for the Cardinals to contend. Instead, damn near everything has gone wrong, and yet they still played meaningful baseball in September. That's really all that you can ask. At this point, I honestly don't have a problem with them going in the shitter the rest of the way. Even though it may mean finishing below teams that I honestly believe are lesser teams than the Cards (Houston, I'm looking in your direction), maybe they can sneak into a higher draft pick or something. I don't expect them to just pack it in, mind you, but it isn't going to kill me if it just all falls apart now.
So, at least for me, the focus now shifts squarely to 2009. And when I look at 2009, I find plenty of reason for optimism. And, if I'm honest, I also find plenty of reason for concern.
There are two main areas of concern that, for me, need to be addressed in the offseason. The first is the middle infield. The Cards' middle infield corps this year has been one of the worst in all of baseball on offense. They've been pretty solid defensively, but not Ozzie Smith, Oh-my-god-did-you-just-see-that good to the point that you can consider any offensive contributions just a welcome bonus. This team's overall offense has been remarkably good, considering the number of free outs the Cards tend to give away on a nightly basis with these guys.
The other big concern, strangely enough, isn't really the bullpen. I look at the bullpen, and I actually like what I see these days. Izzy doesn't look like he'll be back, and Franklin has mostly been relegated to sort of a seventh inning role, it seems, which I can actually live with. I really like the Cards' chances with the guys they've got at the back end going forward. Perez closing, K-Mac setting him up, and Motte taking care of the outs just whenever you need them looks pretty damned good to me. I honestly don't know what will happen with Springer, but if he's back, huge bonus. Heck, Josh Kinney has looked wicked good since he's been back. I'm very leery of counting on too much out of Kinney, though. With that delivery, and the number and violence of sliders that he throws, I'm afraid he's always going to be walking on the edge of the abyss. As for the lefties, well, frankly, they suck. Still, you hope to see Tyler Johnson back next season, and you've got to think that Mo could find at least one solid lefty reliever on the market, don't you? Don't you? Why aren't you answering me?
No, the other big concern for me going into next season is the starting rotation. We've seen this year what happens when the starters are going good. It's called April. We've also seen what happens when they go bad. And let me tell you, the latter isn't pretty. The bullpen looks worse, the offense looks worse, the whole team looks worse, because they never really get into a position to win. There's a rhythm to winning baseball, and it breaks down in a hurry when the starters don't do their jobs.
So how to shore up the starting rotation? Well, there is one option, and really only one option, that I like. I think both CC Sabathia and Ben Sheets will end up costing more than they're worth, even though both are definitely worth quite a pretty penny. Sabathia, especially, but hey, the Yankees are, in all likelihood, going to make this guy the richest pitcher in the game. It just ain't happening here. I realise that a lot of people here are big fans of trying to pick up A.J. Burnett, but I'll take a big ol' pass on that one, too. I wish the Cards would have stepped up to the plate and signed the guy three years ago, because I thought it was a good idea then. Now, though, with where the Cards' farm system is, and the extra years and miles on Burnett's arm,
no thank you. With the problems in Burnett's delivery, I just think he's heading for another significant injury in the next year or two. No, what I want is a guy who will take the ball every day, give you the innings you need, along with the chance to win that you crave. Luckily, while looking at Burnett, you only have to shift your eyes slightly over to one side to see the guy that I'm really talking about.
They call him Doc.
It's fairly well known by now that Roy Halladay just isn't all that happy in Toronto. He's frustrated with his team being a perennial also ran, to the point that he has finally allowed his frustration to come out in the media a couple of times. And this isn't some problem child, spouting off every chance he gets, mind you; this is a competitor struggling with the knowledge that the best years of his career are slipping away whilst toiling for a second division team. The Red Sox, Yankees, and now even the Rays are much, much better teams than the Blue Jays, and Doc Halladay is tired of it.
There have been indication that Toronto is willing to at least listen to offers for Halladay. If so, this is the guy to cure, if not all, then at least many of our ills. I know he's on the wrong side of thirty, but as Azruavatar put it so eloquently not too long ago, Halladay is like a fine wine, becoming better with age. The guy throws a complete game every third time out, and his team is pretty much never out of it. If there were on pitcher I would be willing to bet the farm on (and that's essentially what we're doing here), it is Roy Halladay.
So, what would it take to get a guy like this? Well, I'm glad you asked. The thing is, I've been one who, all along this year, has advocated for holding on to the Cards' prospects. This is a transition year, I've said, let's not blow up '09 and beyond to try and improve this year's squad. And, by and large, I think that's been the correct approach. Next year, though, I think the Cards find themselves in a different situation. They've let their prospects mature for a year, and it has certainly been a fruitful year. Unfortunately, the pitching depth doesn't look as good as it did a year ago, but the positional depth is vastly better than we all thought. Another solid looking draft (at least so far), has the system continuing on the path to excellence. I think it's time to stop being gun shy and make a move. The ghost of Dan Haren is never going to go away if we don't exorcise him.
First off, I thought I would start with the deal the Metropolitans gave for Johan Santana last season. The CC Sabathia deal, while for a comparable talent, simply isn't that similar of a trade. Midseason acquisitions come with a different set of postulates, so I think the Santana deal is the one to go with. Now, at the time, there was a lot of people, myself included, who thought the Twinkies could have, and probably should have, done better. Well, after looking at the way that young, cost controlled talent is currently being valued in the game, I think that may have been a bit premature. Teams are simply putting far more onus on prospects than in the past. With that in mind, let's look at just what the Mets gave up.
First off, they gave up Carlos Gomez, a young, speedy outfielder. Gomez is a legitimate five tool player, although not all of the tools seem to show up at the same time. The most comparable player in the Cards' system would likely be Daryl Jones. Jones is only twenty one, put up huge numbers in High A and Double A this season, and has tools to spare. And, as strange as it sounds to those of us who follow prospects, Jones' approach at the plate is much more advanced than that of Gomez. Honestly, I think Jones may actually be a slightly better prospect, but I think Gomez had a bit better track record at the time of the deal. We'll call it even.
Next, Philip Humber. Humber was a big time prospect at one time, after being a first round draft pick out of Rice. Unfortunately for Humber and the Metropolitans, Humber has had a lot of arm issues since being drafted, and simply hasn't lived up to his billing, even when healthy. He was still rated somewhat highly, but that was largely the effect of being in a very weak system. Closest comp? Probably Adam Ottavino, though that's not a perfect one. I think Ott is a little better bet at this point, simply because he hasn't had any major arm injuries. Personally, I think this would be a nice deal for Ottavino; he's from the Northeast originally, so going back up that way might be more comfortable for him, and he has seemed to struggle at times with the Cardinal organisation's groundball first philosophy.
Next up, Kevin Mulvey. Mulvey was a polished college product out of either Villanova or Vanderbilt, I honestly don't recall which at the moment and am too lazy to look it up, and featured four average pitches and decent control. Seen as a back end of the rotation sort of starter, the Cards have comparable players in spades. A guy like, say, Tyler Herron is probably a good comp to Mulvey at this point in their careers. Both are guys with a lot of polish and average repertoires, who make decent bets to contribute at least something at the big league level. Mulvey was probably a slightly better prospect, simply because he had had success at a higher level than Herron, who struggled this year with the jump to Double A before rebounding after a demotion to Palm Beach.
Lastly, we have Deolis Guerra. Guerra is very much a boom or bust pick, a young Latin kid pitching in the FSL at 19, I believe. Tons of eventual upside, but all kinds of potential potential pitfalls along the way. This one is kind of tough, honestly, because the Cards really don't have a player all that similar to Guerra. I think the most comparable player would likely be Richard Castillo. Castillo, like Guerra, is very young, being only 19 also, I believe, and did pitch in the FSL this year. Unlike Guerra, he threw relief in Palm Beach before being moved to Quad Cities (Low A), to work as a starter. The thing about these two that doesn't really match up is that I don't have a clue what is thought about Castillo's long term prospects. I like him a lot, personally, going so far as to toss him into my top seven Cardinal prospect list not long ago, but honestly, that was somewhat of a fun pick. I would have a very hard time actually justifying that if, say, I were writing for a national publication rather than doing an off the cuff list for a blog that plays it fairly fast and loose at times anyway. Guerra is seen as having legitimate top of the rotations potential down the road; I don't know if I can say that about Castillo. Advantage here definitely has to go to Guerra.
Okay. We have four relatively comparable players, I think. I think two of ours would be slightly better than the ones New York gave up, and I think two would be worse. Now, though, I think we ought to look at how we might change this to make it work a little better.
First off, the Cards have a ton of depth at third base suddenly. With David Freese already knocking on the big league door and Brett the Hitman Walrus coming up close behind, Allen Craig looks a bit like a lost man in this system. Just glancing at the Toronto system, I don't see that many hitters. They have Travis Snider at the top, but not a whole lot of depth. I could be wrong, as I don't honestly know a ton about the Blue Jays' system, but I would think a guy with Craig's bat might be very appealing to them. I would think you could probably substitute Allen Craig for Tyler Herron and actually make it a better package, while dealing more from your own depth. Now, I would say that Craig and Mulvey are equivalent. Actually, looking at Craig's numbers this year, I think he might be a slightly better prospect, but I could see it going either way. Craig can play third or left field, and you can always DH the guy, so I don't see the Jays having any real objections to Craig; you're getting him for his bat.
Now, the last one. Guerra vs. Castillo. I just don't like this comp, as I really have no idea if the two are all that similar or not. So, what I say is, try to make the deal better. Whenever looking at a trade scenario, I always try to envision a trade that the other team couldn't possibly object to on the grounds that they got hosed. So, as I said, make the deal better.
There is one player in the Cardinal system that looks to be truly in limbo. A player with no real future in this organisation, despite the fact that he certainly has proven himself capable of contributing an intriguing skillset, at the very least. I speak, of course, of Bryan Anderson. Now, I am truly loathe to include Anderson here, as I think he's going to end up being a very, very good player down the road for somebody. It has become more and more obvious, though, over the past year and a half, that Anderson doesn't really have much of a spot in the Cards' future plans. Besides Yadier Molina being adored by the Cardinal staff, he has even transformed himself into a good enough hitter that people like me who think catcher defense is wildly overrated can really object too much to his presence on the team. Anderson is, in a word, expendable.
So, substitute Anderson for Castillo. At this point, I think this package is much, much better than the one the Mets gave for Santana. Lighter on the pitching, of course, but significantly more value overall, I think.
So that's about what I would offer for Roy Halladay, I think. I purposely avoided including Rasmus, because I think the Cardinal system is good enough at this point that you could get a deal like this one done without using your top guy. It's a lot to offer, I know. But for what you could get in Halladay, and I tried my level best to deal players that aren't going to have a huge negative impact on the Cards by their absence. It hurts me sorely to include both Anderson and Jones, two players that I really, really like, but sometimes you just have to give up good stuff when you want something special in return.
So how about it? Am I crazy? Is that too much to give up for a pitcher on the wrong side of thirty with a whole lot of miles on his arm? Or does that sound reasonable? Come on, I can take it.
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I love Roy Halladay, but...
I just think that your package is to much for Halladay. See, for Sanatana, he was only what, 29? The Mets were able to lock him into a contract extension that would cover his prime. Halladay, while a very good pitcher, I can’t see him pitching as well as he has been for 3 years, 4 at most. I think the package of Jones/Craig/Ottavino should be good enough, maybe throw in a c-level prospect if they really want (Jon Edwards). It just seems like you are giving up way to much for Halladay by including Anderson.
Look at the middle infield market. Yeah, there’s Ellis and the O’Dog, Furcal and Cabrera, but everyone needs middle infield help for next season. There will be huge bidding wars for them, and it seems as if you should almost keep Anderson out of the initial offer, in the hopes that the Jays don’t demand him and that you could trade him for a MI if the free agents get to expensive.
Also, Miles in center=Tony’s A FRIGGIN’ GENIUS!!!
The NL Central Blog.com
Oh, by the way,
does anybody know who the team will call up to replace Carp and Ank on the roster?
The NL Central Blog.com
My thoughts
I think that Anderson cannot be given up. Yadier has gone on the DL once this year. He is hurt again now. Both times on collisions at the plate. A catcher is too demanding a position to play to not have a suitable player waiting in the wings. I take that back. It is too demanding a position to have a possibly great player waiting in the wings and give up the opportunity of having that backup.
I also agree with dunc4life that it would be too much to give up the same as for Santana. 1) Santana was the big name. Everyone was bidding on him. I haven’t heard much bidding for Halladay (although there should be). 2) He’s older than Santana.
I think that the deal with Craig, but without Anderson could get it done. Maybe I’ll just say that I would definitely not START a trade offer with Anderson in it. No way, no how.
you can't just keep Anderson because you think Yadier will get hurt.
Yes, it would be awful if Yadi got hurt, but to keep a good prospect who plays a premium position “just in case”, seems like a bad idea. That would be like buying a used BMW, and then keeping your old car just in case the new one breaks down. Yeah, it’s great to have in case something bad happens, but it is just easier to go out and sign/trade for a Gabe/Mark Johnson, Kelly Stinnett, or even having LaRue full time wouldn’t be awful (remember how well he did when Yadi went down? he became a hitting machine). Why not shop Anderson this offseason to a team in need of catching (Bosox, Reds?) before those damn Rangers can find some takers for their surplus.
You are completely right when you say that you shouldn’t start a deal with Anderson. Lowball ’em and see where it goes. If they ask for the farm, hell no, but if they seem reasonable and just want another mediocre farmhand, then get Doc the next available ticket to the ’Lou
The NL Central Blog.com
Why not?
I think that catcher is the one position that would be helped most by keeping 2 good ones. I think that any catcher can use a good day off every once in a while. Yadier Molina has played in 20 games this year in which he missed the team’s previous game. One of those was an instance in which he played the 1st game of a doubleheader, missed the second game, then started the next day. I omitted that game since he did not get a day off.
In the 19 games that were played after a game off, Yadier is 26-84 (.310) with 5 walks (.348 obp) and 6 Ks. He has 3 doubles and a homer, 7 runs and 12 rbi.
That is about the same line he puts up normally, except for the runs and RBI are a lot higher. I did not pay close attention to the teams being played, so maybe it was easy competition…or it could be that he rose to the level of the competition. Some of the games were coming off an injury, I’m sure…so those games may have been worse as well. I do not know.
However, I still believe that having Yadier start 6 or 7 games out of every 10 would be more beneficial to his long-term health and length of his career…and would help ease Anderson into the big-league club with 3 or 4 out of 10 going to him. Maybe, if Anderson can really connect with one of the starting pitchers, then it could be 1 out of every 5, 2 out of 10, going with Anderson. Yadier would get scheduled (and consistent) days off, and Anderson would get playing time and consistency by pitching to the same one or two pitchers.
I like it
I would agree with just about everything you said. Halliday would solve a lot of problems both with the Starting Rotation and the Bullpen.
Heck, I might even move Rasmus to get the job done. I want to see a solid AAA season for Rasmus before I automatically put him in center field, much less induct him into the hall of fame like a lot seem to want to do already.
But a quality starting pitcher, a left hander who can actually pitch in the bullpen, and some help in the middle infield is manditory if we are going to compete in this division next year.
And of course a little better luck on the injury front.
well, not HOF for Rasmus, but...
we have just seen his potential and think that if he can live up to that, he is a cornerstone player for the next half decade. Also, players with Colby’s tools don’t come along that often, so don’t be so eager to give him up.
The NL Central Blog.com
Not eager, but wouldn't let him get in the way
As I said, I want to see a solid AAA season before I get too excited by him. Living in the Chicago area, I’ve heard all of the same stuff about Felix Pie and Corey Patterson and neither have made it so far in the majors. So I’m skeptical. I’m from Missouri.
I’m not saying that no price is too high. But if they want Rasmus and some lesser minor league players you have to think about it. You either do that or go after Sabathia despite the cost. You have to do something to move up in this division.
by O'Fallon Park on Sep 13, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It looks like Halladay is only signed for two more years
I would want at least an addtional year and an option before even thinking about trading Rasmus.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
the starting pitching concerns me most too
I would love to have Halladay at the top of the rotation with A.D.A.M. The person I would hate to give up most if the package you suggest is Daryl Jones. He has seemed to really break through this year. The overall package seems a little high but Mo is going to have to do something similar to improve the club I think. What is Halladay’s contract situation? As far as a can tell, he is only signed through 2009. I’m glad you took Castillo out of the trade package as our system is rather light on top-flight pitchers (not that he is one yet) so we need try and hold on those who may pan out under almost all circumstances. Interesting proposal, RB!
I agree that Jones is a stud.
But even though he has had a fantastic season at A and AA, he may be worth moving for Halladay.
The NL Central Blog.com
I think Toronto would take
Anderson, Craig, Jay, and Ott and I’d much rather do this. We should be looking to keep all the toolboxes we can
good idea,
i think this would be a good FINAL package if the Jays threw in someone else. if the initial offer was, say, Craig, Jay, Ott, + Clevel prospect, that would be good, but to include Anderson, it just sseems like we are giving up to much for only 2 years of Halladay (according to Cot’s Contracts), who by the way, is due 30 million for those two years.
The NL Central Blog.com
i agree
I would be give up Anderson way before i give up Jones. This based purely on watching them both play in Springfield over the last two years. granted, i know a good hitting catcher is more valuable than a good hitting outfielder but i just am not a fan of his approach at the plate. DJ has potential to be a .300/.400/.500 player while i think BA is toping out at .300/.350/.400 with average defense. BA, Jay , Craig and Ott sounds good to me.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
Whatever it takes
if you can get a pitcher like Halladay – maybe the best in the game right now – you go for it.
I don’t quibble about what prospects we package. Remember, they are still prospects. Halladay is proven entity and an almost-guaranteed 20-game winner in St. Louis. Yadier is still young so, yes, Anderson is definitely expendable. Trade him while he has value.,
Of course, you don’t what “Doc” would think about all of this. Does he have a say on where he goes, if traded?
I like it
Here’s the best part…
When Jocketty used to stalk through the woods to kill a deer, he would use every damn bullet he had. It worked for awhile, but unfortunately the deer opportunities dried up. He shot his last few bullets at a deer with an odd drop in speed and questionable joint/back integrity. That deer wound up tasting rather gamy, and unfortunately one of those bullets have miraculously gone on to shoot at much larger game, like elephants and shit.
Now, the Cards system has been built up to a point where the new hunter, Mozeliak, can shoot off bullets and not worry about running out.
In real world terms, this package gets rid of guys who don’t quite fit in while hanging on to the blue chippers like Perez, Rasmus, Motte, Wallace, Todd, and Mortensen. I like it red, I like a lot. Halladay venison should taste rather good.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Sep 13, 2008 12:53 PM EDT reply actions
west coast
is that you??
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Sep 13, 2008 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh, no
I can’t remember which main contributor it was, but one of them used the deer hunter analogy to describe Jocketty. I stole it.
I am not westcoastbirdwatcher, and hopefully will never be.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Sep 14, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
OT (slightly):
Surprised no one has brought this up yet. Seemed to be fairly relevant news.
In Thursday’s column, I wondered why the Cardinals, who are short-handed in the outfield, weren’t inclined to call up the top prospect, Colby Rasmus. Well, he’s told the team that his knee is still bothering him; Rasmus may not want to play winter ball because of the knee. I wasn’t aware of the continuing knee issue, so I apologize to Cardinals management.
From today’s Bernie’s Bits column.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I honestly don't think Toronto is going to trade Halladay.
It wouldn’t hurt to talk to them, but I think they keep him. Who knows? They may be one of the teams getting a new GM over the winter.
When you mentioned Carlos Gomez’s name, I recalled my favorite highlight from the nightly Top 10 plays on ESPN. It was Gomez jumping into the baggie (Minnesota doesn’t have an outfield wall, they have a baggie wall) snatching a sure home run ball with his gloved left hand, and reaching with his right hand at his side to catch his hat before it hit the ground…….good hands, man.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Halladay ... have to give up a top level pitching prospect
I think to get Halliday, you have to give up a top starting pitching prospect. That would mean Boggs from our organization. Boggs, Anderson, Craig, Jay … that’s a lot to give up but Toronto would sure have to look hard at such a package. If they want a major league ready outfielder as part of the deal, I’d tell them to select one of C. Duncan, B. Barton or Skip. That’s a nice package of players and really doesn’t hurt us.
another SP name to throw out there
is Zack Greinke of KC. KC is also in need of outfield help—particular power hitting outerfielders. If Ankiel didn’t get shut down for the season and had another year before free agency I think he wouldn’t have been a great fit. That is not the case however, but I think Mo could would a deal to acquire Zack. He would be a great addition in my opinion. He isn’t the power, proven ace that Halladay is but he is also younger and probably wouldn’t command quite as much in return. I’d be happy with either guy if the price wasn’t exorbitant.
i dont think we pry away Greinke
if so i would love it maybe more so than Halladay. Greinke is very young and very good. you put him a good team and he is 15-20 game winner at 25. i think he is a big part of their future plans esp with no other big pitching prospects in the minors.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
Living in KC
I don’t believe that they will trade away Zach Greinke. Dayton Moore (their new GM) came in and has cleaned up house a bit. His philosophy is to stockpile young pitching talent. They look at Zach Greinke as their #1 when Meche’s contract is up…unless Meche has another year like last year. Then, Greinke is their #1.
The only way we get Greinke is to throw a Holliday type deal at them, or more…and then it might not get it done.
Unfortunately, I believe that to be the case. I love watching Greinke pitch. I have sat 4th row directly behind the plate for two of his starts (both several years ago when he first came up) and I have never seen pitches dance like that (in person.) It’s amazing to watch.
depends
i agree with rb on the rotation situation needing considerable attention. my 2 cents is giving up the prospect package rb suggests for halladay is too much, unless we are all in next year or maybe year after. no matter their history, i would not give up any package of talented youngsters for an over 30 pitcher who would be only on-board for a year or two. just check detroit, though, if you want to see what all in can end up being. in the end, halladay looks more a mid-season acquisition target for us, if we are close. what we need to do for sure is line up lowe or wolfe or the like to make sure we have a rotation. i see only ww and welle as set for next year. carp is a definite ? lohse and blooper can walk. we should have enough resources to to get these or equivalent guys and not go into the season hoping a certain number of injured pitchers make it back to health. if mo is a real miracle worker, he will find someone to pay pinata next year!
what also worries me is that our improvement in the middle infield may be limited to keeping floppy as the new spiezio. personally, i see no need to keeping iz2. we have good field, no hit options that are much less expensive. i’d say we use one of them and put the money/prospects into o’dog or another second baseman with a high obp.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
when you're making a trade for a legitimate ACE
you have to give up an attractive package. And while I would want to hang onto Jones, you have to think about trades from the other teams perspective. Im sure the majority of Torontos fan base would react to trading Halladay fro a Jones/Ott/Craig/prospect package by saying we gave up wayyyyyyyyyyy too much. The trades that usually work leave both sides saying we gave up a lot, but we did get something valuable.
also matt cain
has been rumored to be available for the right price (IE, Prince Fielder, possibly).
With the blue jays storming into the wild card picture in the AL (9-1 in sept, 11-1 over the last 12, and up 5-0 on the red sox as i post) I wouldn’t expect them to either replace JP or blow up their team. BUT if they were to do it, and accepted that package, I would be overjoyed.
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
i think due to the arrival of cito gaston
halladay will want to stay…that team has really turned around since he took over the helm…but if he is available i say make a play at him….but hold on to rasmus and jones(that may not be possible)…i’d rather have jones in the the org. than anderson personally
In Pittsburgh
we use our RFers in Left and LFers in Right b/c of the stadium dimensions.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
dangit.
you snuck in there right before me.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
It's funny you mention that
because i already read all of your posts as if Yakof Smirnoff is reading them aloud.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
It's becuase of the outfield in Pittsburgh
Which is considerably larger in left field and left center than it is in right field.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
nice to see Lopez
getting all the OJT time he needs at 3B. Hopefully one of our competitors will give him a nice big contract to play 3B for them next year.
Amazing how much of a long-range thinker TLR is!
(and at least it isn’t miguel cairo)
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
Assuming we aren't going to call up Freese.....
Who is a better option at 3rd?
Doesn’t matter where Lopez plays defensively, he’s trying out to be on our roster next year, so he needs the AB’s.
And even though most fans have given up, I guarantee you TLR hasn’t. He’s still going to put what he thinks is the best 9 out there.
and not one comment about Mini Me at SS
don’t tell me Tony has worn us all down?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
So.....
are you saying you’d prefer to see Izturis starting at short? Or Ryan?
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Defense hasn't really been our problem of late.....
Yes I know that Lopez hurt us that one game, but overall, it’s either been a poorly pitched game, or our lineup has done nothing. TLR is trying to get the best hitting options on the field, in some cases, defense be damned.
yeah, i'd much rather have BOOG at SS over Mini Me or IZ2
everyday of the week. at least he has some potential & upside to improve. something you can’t say of IZ2 & Mini Me.
and don’t forget, he’s a lot better defender at SS than both of those guys put together.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Why does Brendan Ryan have upside?
He is basically the same age as IZ2…. You know why Ryan has upside? only because he has not really had a career year like IZ2 did in 2004.
I am not going to say Ryan has that much upside.
relax
i didn’t say he has a huge over all upside. i said he has more of one over IZ2 & Mini Me.
fyi, IZ2 is two years older than BOOG.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
OK, I will admit you were not saying MAJOR upside for Ryan...
I am just of the thought that the Cards need to be creative and I honestly don’t like Ryan or Izturis as a starting SS next season. I say, we have seen what they can do offensively and need to turn the page.
Look there are things I like about Ryan, but he is basically Izturis with less experience. He is not a player I would be excited about as a starting SS next year.
Besides 2 years age difference is not really that much.
i completely agree
Ryan isn’t the solution at SS. i would not mind having him as a back up, but he’s not a starter.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
if he was really trying to win
he’d be using barden or miles at 3B, or starting ryan at SS and Iz2 at 3B. By using Lopez at 3B over and over and over, TLR is signaling that he is giving up on this year and trying people out for next year. it’s like the dumb kindergartner trying to fit the square block in the round hole.
Anyway, the worst thing a team can do is give a guy a job for next year based on 40 PA’s in September. Unfortunately, it’s obvious that is what is going on, which causes a huge sinking feeling in my gut much like the one I had when they signed izturis early last offseason.
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
Lopez has arguably been.....
Our 2nd best hitter since his arrival. You don’t want him in LF. You don’t want him at 3B. You don’t want him at SS. Insane.
i don't want him period
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
dude if you can't realize he's having a hot streak & regressing back up to his mean
of not being a very good player, then i can’t help you.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Kinda like Miles, right?
Oh wait, no he’s just establishing career highs in almost every category.
I’ll agree that Lopez isn’t an exciting huge upgrade over the other guys we have. In the long run, I would still bet he’s an upgrade though, and that includes Brendan Ryan, who was never a big-time prospect, and has shown very little reason to think he’s going to bust out and put up an OPS+ anywhere near 100 like he did last year (in only 180 at bats, though).
I don't think either of those options you just presented
are any better than the one that’s starting today.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
best line up (offensively)
CF- Skip
2B- Miles
1B- Pujols
LF- Ludwick
RF- Lopez
3B- Barden
C- Larue
P-
SS- Izturis
LOL
Izturis in any lineup against a righty, and calling it our best, is funny.
Phelps replaces the power we lose in Glaus and Ankiel, I have no problem with that.
I am not trying to say Brian Barden is good....
Phelps has power, but he has not done squat up in the show yet.
if barden is worse than lopez offensively
and that is a big “if”, he’s much, much better defensively.
Yeah, lopez has been good offensively, but he’s had a .437 BABIP. His actual offensive ability is on par with aaron miles and it is “insane” consider him anything more based on 91 lucky AB’s. Given his tremendous defensive liability- I don’t think you fully grasp how incredibly bad he is, sooner – he’s going to cost us more games than he wins for us no matter how well he hits.
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
What does his BABIP have to do with anything in this situation?
Can you seriously tell me you wouldn’t play a player who is hitting extremely well right now because he’s over-achieving? The guy has gotten at least one hit in every game he’s started except 2 and you want to sit him because he’s getting “lucky”.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
i want to sit him because he sucks
not because he has been lucky. If he was a good player who was having luck, then yes, you play him. But he is awful defensively and even with a 147 OPS+ since joining us he’s cost us more than he’s given.
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
So, I guess you don't want Todd Wellemeyer anymore right?
because his career numbers indicate he’s not a very good pitcher either.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I would expect Wellemeyer
to be a roughly 4.3ish ERA pitcher next year, ERA+ around 100, just like I expect Lopez to be a roughly 90-ish OPS+ hitter who is 2-3 games below replacement level with his defense. He was -16 in 400 innings this year for the nats; that is incredibly, amazingly bad.
To make up for that kind of defensive production, to be as valuable as a .330OBP/.330SLG player with adequate defense, Lopez would have to put up a .350/.500 OBP/SLG line over 600 PA’s. That ain’t gonna happen.
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
Phelps replaces
two very good defensive players with 30 home run a season type pop?
I am apparently underestimating him.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
If (Pujols forbid)
Pujols were to blow his arm out, we’d be trotting out probably the worst lineup in the league.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
That is really an awful, awful lineup
This season got out of hand fast.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
it's September 2007 all over again
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
I really don't hae that much of a problem with that lineup
except Barden should be at 2B. Of course since the playoffs are out of the question, it would be nice to see Freese at 3rd. Can Barden play 3rd? If his defense is decent at 3rd then Lopez would make a whole hell of a lot more sense at 2B.
Am I losing it, did I really say that I don’t have much of a problem with that lineup?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Halladay vs our current pitching staff
Using 2008 FIP to predict performance, by replacing one of our current rotation with Halladay for the number of innings indicated, we’d win about the following number of games next year:
FIP W(200) W(220) W(240) looper 4.72 4.25 4.67 5.10 Welley 4.38 3.41 3.75 4.09 Lohse 4.53 3.78 4.16 4.53 AW 3.72 1.78 1.96 2.13 Piniero 4.80 4.44 4.89 5.33 Halladay 3.00
Over 240 IP, Halladay would be worth roughly 4-5 wins over any pitcher but wainwright. Kinda surprising how close Piniero is to Looper and Lohse, btw, even after last night.
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
I think...
you’re absolutely right about Halladay, and the Cards should go hard after him, if he is indeed available.
But I don’t know why the Blue Jays make him so, especially with Burnett almost certain to leave. Why trade your ace? And they’ve been stampeding lately, until the last few games. Odds are the organization will think that bodes well for ’09.
I think the only way we see Roy traded is a request from him or a Toronto collapse these last few weeks that drives them into ‘sort of rebuilding’ mode.
And I think everybody and their mother would be after him, meaning Rasmus’ name gets involved.
by RedbirdAvenger on Sep 13, 2008 11:47 PM EDT reply actions
Halladay requesting a trade
That is what I got from TRB’s post. If he is unhappy, it seems likely he would request a trade. If you add to that the fact that the Jays will have to fight an uphill battle for the division against the Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays, I don’t think it seems far fetched that Doc sees his chances of getting to the playoffs as pretty damn slim with the Jays and makes that request.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Sep 14, 2008 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
What?
If you think the Blue Jays are going to trade Halladay, one of the best pitchers in the baseball, for anything less than Rasmus or Wallace and at least two Real Good pitching prospects you are insane. The Santana trade is not a good reference because he was going to be a free agent after this year and if you didn’t want him to be a rental you had to be able spend 100 million to sign him. So the teams in the trading pool were kind of small and everyone knew it.

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