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Sweet Relief. . .for a Price

The Cardinals accumulated an absurd number of blown saves this year.  We've heard the stat quoted time and time again on broadcasts, and it's hard not to wonder where the team would be if they could have held it together.  Rumors abounded at the trade deadline of the Cardinals' interest in Colorado lefty Brian Fuentes.  That trade never materialized but it's safe to say that the team was making inquiries.

Several writers have tossed out the Cardinals as being one of the teams that will be interested in Francisco Rodriguez as he arrives at free agency this offseason.  He's going to get a lot of ink in the press having tied the single season saves record.  Rodriguez is primed for a big payday despite having one of his "worst" years statistically.  I put that in quotes because he still has a FIP of 3.22 which is hardly something to sniff at.

While I want to believe that the Cardinals are going to hand the job to the player they drafted specifically to be their closer (i.e. Young Pitcher), all the troubles they've had and Tony's propensity for wanting a veteran in that role makes me wring my hands a bit.  The addition of either Fuentes or K-Rod isn't, necessarily, a bad acquisition.  They're both good players but the question is always what value they provide relative to other options.

The ninth inning has belonged to Jason Isringhausen, Ryan Franklin and Chris Perez for the majority of they year.  They've pitched 18, 34 and 28 times in the ninth respectively.  Obviously, there's a ton of games where a long man or lessor pitcher is finishing a blow out or even a few when our starters held on to pitch in the 9th.  Those three, however, are the prime suspects this season.  This season they've posted FIPs of 3.92, 4.81 and 4.84 respectively.  In the 9th inning, we're looking at a weighted FIP of 4.62 from those three this season.  (Note: I'm playing a little loose and fast with these numbers -- I'm aware of that.  I don't think there's anything terribly out of sync yet.)

You'd expect Chris Perez might struggle a bit over the course of the season and K-Rod/Fuentes are going to be closer to career numbers.  The addition of either of those players really isn't going to bump Perez from the roster.  It's more likely to remove some of those replacement level innings from guys like Jimenez, Flores, etc.  Still, let's see what the differences are in terms of runs for some eyeballed projections for next year.

Name FIP Runs
Young Pitcher 4.00 27
K-Rod 3.00 20
Fuentes 3.75 25
Replacement Level 6.00 40

We're not talking about a significant difference in terms of run prevention when these relievers are only going to throw about 60 innings.  Some very smart people (Tom Tango, for one) will argue that the leverage of the innings should be included in the valuation of the innings.  That is to say that the higher leverage situations (often times late innings) are more valuable in terms of run prevention than other innings.  I'm not part of that bandwagon but there's a reasonable argument to be made that these players are far more impactful than a 2 win upgrade.

Baseball Prospectus' primary stat for reliever's value is WXRL (Win Expectation above Replacement, Lineup-adjusted).  For 2008, K-Rod is currently at 5.6 wins and Fuentes is at 3.4 wins.  If we use 4 million dollars as our baseline for the cost of each win when purchasing a free agent -- a number that Tango has calculated based on total wins and the amoung of $$$ in baseball players, which I think is now at 4.4/win -- it's easy to see those contracts getting big quickly.  Mariano Rivera inked a 3/45M dollar deal with the Yankees making him the highest paid reliever to date.  It's not inconceivable that both Fuentes and Rodriguez could surpass that number.

Again, I'm hopeful the Cardinals aren't going to pursue these players.  I don't think the cost is going to be close to the marginal value (espcially since I don't agree with leverage theory).  That said, it's possible that they will and certain that writers will speculate that they will.  With pitchers like Perez, Jason Motte and Kyle McClellan, the Cardinals have options but will they put their faith in the kids (or even Ryan Franklin) or look for external options to an area that has been, without question, a significant problem for the Cardinals in 2008.

Friday News 'n Notes:

  • The Cardinals have agreed to a deal with Memphis that will keep the team as their AAA affiliate for 4 more years.  This is somewhat of a surprise to me in terms of length when they could have signed a 2-year commitment.  Seems like a good idea for both sides though.
  • Wouldn't this be cool. . .
  • Brad Thompson's getting the start tonight after the Cardinals had Lohse drop his suspension appeal.  Joe Strauss, on Team 1380 yesterday afternoon, wondered if Lohse wasn't a bit miffed by being bumped back in the rotation.  Wonder if this impacts the Cardinals' interest in Lohse this offseason.\
  • In that same link, Carp is being shutdown for the season.
  • You'll forgive me for not buying the company line on Rasmus' knee.  Either the Cardinals sent him back to play minor league baseball before he was cleared for baseball activities or they're trying to use his knee as an excuse now.  Can't have your cake and eat it too.

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I think we're being a bit unfair to Perez...

in the above analysis. Since coming back to the bigs on 8/06 he’s put up a VERY solid line. 13.1 IP, 8 hits, 4 BB’s, 16 K’s, 3 ER’s (on back to back blown saves). He has a 2.06 ERA and .92 WHIP in this time with 7 saves in 9 opp’s. He’s also young and should improve overall…I don’t expect him to do better than a 2.06 ERA. I vote against Fuentes who IMO is at best marginally better than Young Pitcher while significantly more expensive. KRod while probably a good deal better will likely get 5 years at $13 mil/yr (at least)…compare that to the $13 million (total) we will pay Perez over the same period of time. Also K-Rod is 3.5 years older than Perez – and has a lot more mileage on his arm.

by cardzfanbub on Sep 12, 2008 9:23 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

FWIW

KRod told Mike DiGiovanna of the LA Times he’d take a 4 year deal with an option for a 5th year.

LA Times Article

I’m not sure if that offer is exclusive to the Angels, but I figued I’d throw it out there.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 1:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I saw that...

I figure he’d get $15m/yr at least if he took a four year deal…basically same deal as Rivera with an extra year. I still wouldn’t do it.

by cardzfanbub on Sep 12, 2008 1:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Crazy

There is no way the Cards should pay a closer 70-80 innings $15 million a year. That is roughly 12.5% payroll (assuming Cards have payroll of 120 million) for 4% of the total innings pitched. The Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers, Mets are a better fit though the mets are the only team w/ closer needs.

by njnick on Sep 12, 2008 2:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Imagine...

…if we did get KRod – I mean if yer gonna break the bank you might as well go for the big gun, right? If we did, we cud use Perez as primary set-up (and give him a couple of extra years to learn the closer trade), along with Motte, Franklin, etc. We would STILL, however, need to sign a solid lefty (Damaso Marte is the one I keep championing). Signing Fuentes would give us a closer and a solid lefty in one go, except he’s not as good as KRod and not a whole bunch better than Perez in his better mooments. We cud probably get Fuentes for 3 years, but we’d probably have to go to 5 years with KRod, meaning Perez would have a long time to wait before closing again. if we sign Fuentes as our closer we’d STILL have to sign an-udder lefty to use in non-closing situations, only we probably cudn’t afford Marte then. We’d have to go the Embree route.

If, cowever, we’re committed to Perez as closer, it wouldn’t make sense to sign KRod at all, obviously. Fuentes would still be a good signing as primo set-up guy and occasional closer, keeping in mind, again, that we’d still need an-udder lefty in the pen.

I say get Fuentes & Marte or Embree and try to lock down a SP and a SS.

Oh, and if we can pull off a trade with Atlanta for Kelly Johnson we should do that too!

:=8)

by The MooCow on Sep 12, 2008 9:48 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hah..

“interested” in k-rod.. sure.. As far as leverage with fuentes (or some other reliever that’ll go under the radar because of k-rod’s press) goes probably, but nothing more.

by Birds on the Matt on Sep 12, 2008 9:57 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No K-Rod

There are going to be two holes in the starting rotation that need solving first with Looper and Lohse becoming FAs. Then the outfield situation needs to be firmed up to make room for Rasmus to start. Schu is more valuable to smaller market teams from a cost/ability viewpoint as a starter for us to waste as a fourth outfielder. Trade him for LHP bullpen support.

A 2009 bullpen of Perez, K-Mac, Franklin, Motte, Kinney, Springer, lefty 1 and lefty 2 is enough to help the team regress back to the mean in Blown Saves.

by ubeddie on Sep 12, 2008 10:24 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

SIGH

I realized last night Franklin is signed for 2009. I walked into the room last night, saw him coming in, and started cursing.

by sdrone on Sep 12, 2008 10:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

I texted tackle box last night when bowling was over and I saw Franklin entering the game: “what the hell is Franklin doing in the game”

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 1:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

can't forget about pinero

he’ll either be in the rotation or the pen.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Sep 12, 2008 2:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rasmus

I don’t remember how many games he played in A ball after coming back (I actually thought he went to Memphis), but it probably wasn’t many. And how is that not telling of his injury situation? With the struggles Memphis was having in putting 3 OF’s in any given game, had Rasmus been anywhere near healthy, I’m sure he would have goteen the call.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 12, 2008 10:33 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

then AZ's point rings true

they had no business running him out there to A ball if his knee wasn’t healthy. Either he’s healthy enough to run the bases and run down balls in the OF, or he’s not and, if he’s not, they shouldn’t have put him back out there. Matt Leach’s article says that the Cards “are still hoping (Rasmus) can play winter ball” — implying that the health of his knee is so tenuous that he might not be able to play winter ball. So why’d they rush him back to play a week’s worth of Class A ball games? Mozeliak says he’s not cleared to play baseball right now — yet he was cleared to play a week ago.

Oh well, at least we can always run Aaron Miles back out to LF again.

by chuckb on Sep 12, 2008 11:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe Rasmus had a setback?

You know, sometimes you just don’t know how you are health-wise, until you play a few games. How many times do you see that in the majors? A guy comes back, maybe a little too early, plays a game or two, then misses another week? Happens quite a bit.

Best I can tell, Rasmus played in THREE games. To me, that is about the right amount of time to see where he is at, injury-wise.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 12, 2008 11:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really don't know what the deal with his knee is....

However I would rather be safe than sorry. I don’t get it, people get pissed off because they were not careful with Ankiel and now people want to throw the best prospect in the organiztion to the wolves?

Why even risk getting him hurt. Maybe after his short rehab stint they figured he needed a certin amount of time to heal because he really needed to play winter ball. I think its stupid to bring him up to play 15 games and then he can’t play winter ball because he hurts himself worse.

I say leave him be. Being overly cautious is not bad

by ICbirdfan on Sep 12, 2008 12:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Overly cautious would have meant

not playing him AT ALL. It doesn’t mean allowing him to finish a minor league season by playing a few games and then saying, “Gee, he’s just not healthy enough to play CF in Busch.” If we want to be cautious, I’d have had no problem w/ that but that wasn’t the approach the team took. The team decided to run him out there to finish off a minor league season. Then, in order to justify not calling him up, they pull this “he’s not healthy enough” stuff out of their you-know-what. Nothing wrong w/ the cautious approach. It would have been justifiable if the team had chosen it.

by chuckb on Sep 12, 2008 4:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Two words: Rehab assignment

Rasmus was on a rehad assignment in Florida. Running him out there is what rehabs are for. Are you suggesting Rasmus should have tested out his recovery by being called up to start in CF?

by ubeddie on Sep 12, 2008 12:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe he should have seen the doctor before

his rehab assignment then. If they weren’t sure whether the crown jewel of the system was healthy or not and then played him in some meaningless Florida League games, shame on them.

In all liklihood though, this is a case of “Hey Colby, your injured…in case you didn’t know.”

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 1:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You never know..

Maybe the doc said no structural damage. Do these exercise’s to help strenghten the knee, test it out and see how it feels. Sometime you don’t know until you try it out. Maybe they were not concerned about him hurting himself worse at the time by testing it out. He did not play many rehab games, possibly because his knee started to hurt a bit more.

Now the club felt it’s best for him to fully rest it and then start winter ball. He has missed too much time and at his age he just needs as many ABs as possbile. I think that may be the best route for him to be ready for next year.

I don’t care, I would rather be safe and not have him try to play 15 games and maybe hurt himself worse. Maybe he can’t play any winter ball and it’s not good as he needs ABs. His playing a full winter season is more important than the final game of the MLB season.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 12, 2008 1:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was a rehab assignment

Where is Mo saying his knee is in worse shape than before because of the rehab? The 6 game assignment at the end of the minor league season showed that he is not ready to be activated to play CF for the MLB team. End of rehab, end of 2008 for Rasmus, end of story, see you in ST.

by ubeddie on Sep 12, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm saying the

“he’s not healthy enough” meme is complete and total BS. They didn’t want to call him up, so they didn’t. They’re just lying about why. If he wasn’t healthy enough, they shouldn’t have played him in the first place. Give him time to heal. I’ve got no problem w/ that.

by chuckb on Sep 12, 2008 4:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And that is your OPINION.....

Too bad nobody on this board knows for sure.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 12, 2008 5:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yawn!

Cards’ management is infallible! Everything they do is for the good of the players, the good of the organization, and the good of the fans. Do not question! DO NOT QUESTION!!!

by chuckb on Sep 12, 2008 11:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

IMO

The options on August 22 were to allow him to test out his knee in some low A live baseball games or shut him down until winter ball options opened up. He is ineligible for Fall baseball so running him out there for six games of live baseball is in my opinion has a purpose, last chance to play live ball for the next few months.

Either way the knee injury knocked him not only out of the olympics but from a 2008 call up. He isn’t ready to play MLB for the first time after only six games against low A pitching following a six week lay off due to knee injury.

by ubeddie on Sep 12, 2008 6:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

fine

then why risk it with 6 games of law-A pitching? If he’s not healthy, he’s not healthy. If he is healthy, why lie to us about him being healthy?

by chuckb on Sep 12, 2008 11:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Again It was the only chance to face Live baseball for 3 months

In looking at the quote linked by az, I don’t see where Mo says he isn’t healthy. I do see that he hasn’t recovered enough in a baseball sense to face MLB pitching. That is my read of the quote and analysis of the activities.

The window of opportunity to have any rehab assignment was closing. If the knee was a problem with the rehab, he would have been shut down after one game. Rasmus knew before the rehab that he was not being called up and the plan was to play out the last six games.

Rasmus would have been called up if he wasn’t 1) scheduled for the olympics and 2) didn’t injure his knee.

by ubeddie on Sep 13, 2008 11:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry....

…I love Rassy as moooch as the next Cards fan, but he needs to earn his way into the outfield.
:=8/

by The MooCow on Sep 12, 2008 10:34 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

what

a .251/.346/.396 line in triple A isn’t good enough?

by Evilfrog on Sep 12, 2008 10:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

while I don't think it is good enough myself

this came up last night in the game thread, but look at ellsbury’s 2007 AAA line. It was worse than Colby’s, yet he made a tremendous difference in the boston world series run…

Of course, he might also have been damaged by being brought up too soon. Sub-.700 OPS this season with the sox.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 12, 2008 12:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

.388 BABIP wheeeeeeee....

Kosuke Fukudome: $55 million.262 .362 .381
Skip Schumaker: $Free .306 .364 .417
Skippy needs a new publicist

by joker24 on Sep 12, 2008 12:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, the GOB loved Ellsbury last year

but who is to say they wouldn’t have loved colby just as much? Or, uh, Young 3B? Anything can happen in 33 games.

The knee injury makes it all hypothetical, of course.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 12, 2008 12:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shouldn't that be not-so Young 3B?

But the lack of he or Barden getting any starts is ridiculous to me. It basically says the organization has no plans for them.

by OCCardsFan on Sep 12, 2008 1:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Relievers

I’d like to make a splash this offseason, I’m just not sure what the right moves are. Would it be nice to have K-Rod? Absolutely. Just not sure, for our team, he’s worth what he’ll be asking. I’d like Fuentes too, but I don’t see him as a full-time closer. Would love to have him in a floating role of closer/setup/LOOGY, but from what I’ve read, he wants to close.

The LOOGY I’d like to see us get is Ohman, but I question his some things about him fitting in. Dude was a Grade A butthole to the STL fans before a game the last time they came to town.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 12, 2008 10:39 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

I’d rather invest $5M in a very good LOOGY than $15M+ on a reliever that is not $14M better than Perez.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 12, 2008 10:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree

K-Rod is not a luxury the Cardinals can afford. Paying 12-15 million per season for about 70 innings is absurd. Plus, with his mechanics I just dont trust him to stay healthy for the entire contract. And if he is not healthy for that ENTIRE contract it will become even more of an albatross. Look at Billy Wagner – He may miss for than a season. I would much rather gamble on a starting pitcher for that investment.

Seems as though Fuentes will cost too much to be a LOOGY/setup guy. I dont trust him closing either.

by njnick on Sep 12, 2008 12:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i'd also suspect

that he wouldn’t sign with a team unless he had a gentleman’s agreement that he’s the “closer” going in to the season…

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 12, 2008 12:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hard not to be pessimistic at this point

I think the Cards passed their event horizon and its time to talk about getting ’em next year.

not counting Encarnacion (who I often forget is still on the team), Clement and Mulder, we’re heading into the ‘final turn’ lacking, from what we envisioned as our best roster in spring training, our CF, 3B, C, LF, #1A SP, #1 LH reliever and closer

add in our top prospect is shut out of the bigs and our top pitching prospect is shut down for the year and potentially career. Burn some more incense, Aki.

The Glaus injury was the straw that broke the camel’s back….wouldn’t be september if we didn’t have a sore shouldered 3B.

IBB to AK….thought it was a stupid idea at the time as it greatly improved Pujls chances of batting again in the 9th. Pujols comes up in the game situation….an appropriate natural consequence would be walk off retribution. But the Baseball gods have it in for us this year(s)……………..

re the extra points:
1) from the Birdhouse article, seems like Memphis really pushed for a 4 year deal. Sounds like a good fit for both clubs, glad the Cards didn’t shoot themselves in the foot
on this

2) the timing of dropping the suspension appeal is a bit strange….don’t see that it impacts our plans for Lohse, my guess is we have none.

3) Carp being shut down for the season….didn’t see that coming. oh wait……
Just hope he’s ready to go next season

by vances law on Sep 12, 2008 10:42 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

next season depends on the health of Carpenter and Wainwright

I wonder if trouting Rick out into Left field is to get him used to it. Though with his arm you would think he would be in right if not Center.

Ludwick/Rasmus/Ankiel makes me all giddy inside. Barton and Skippy on the bench also makes me giddy inside. Of course, so would trading skippy and having barton/Mather on the bench…. I like our outfield for next year no matter who makes it.

Perez my not be called the closer now. But I have a feeling he is pitching for the job next year.

Really it’s just getting a good middle infielder and some LRP. If we can get those two things this team can be a championship team.

by Evilfrog on Sep 12, 2008 10:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my two cents...

1.) I don’t mind holding back on Rasmus, but I hate this stuff about him allegedly being in TLR’s “doghouse”…he hasn’t even BEEN here yet…let him prove or disprove himself on this level before he gets the Reyes treatment.

2.) Memphis and the Cards have a solid history to this point and I am glad they re-upped with them…I am a traditionalist in that regard…I long for the days when your AAA was with you for decades and they weren’t that far away geographically…it obviously helps that the big club provided them with a better on-field product that can’t hurt them at the gate.

3.) Ties are awesome, not just because of the excitement, but also because they screw with network TV post season programming plans, which have to make Bud Selig nervous…anything that does that is fine with me.

by tbell61 on Sep 12, 2008 10:58 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Injuries.....

Have just about killed any chance we had at making a run.

Capenter only got a couple of appearances, now he is shut down.

Molina is going to miss 3-4 games in the middle of an important stretch of games.

Glaus is missing anywhere from 4-5 games to the rest of the year.

We’re playing the final month of the season without 2 of our top 4 OF’s (Ankiel and Mather). And the 5th one (Barton) has missed considerable time.

You can argue that Izzy’s injury is the biggest of all. If healthy, he probably saves enough games that we’re leading or much closer to the WC.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 12, 2008 11:13 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you know what...

I have been saying it all along, “don’t count on Carp”……..

The problem I have is all the “just wait till Carp comes back next year with Carp and Wainer….”

I think the team may want to address getting a top of the rotation type guy, however you can say Wainer and Welle can be your #1 and #2, but who knows if Welle can keep it up. I guess Looper came back after his first year starting and proved he could be relied upon.

Right now get used to #1 Wainer and #2 Welle……..

by ICbirdfan on Sep 12, 2008 11:19 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you are spot on

the team needs to plan as if Carp will not be available and secure at least one significant SP plus a good 4/5 guy. I think many of us thought we would have a “pitching surplus” this year and we have seen how elusive that can be.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 12, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Completely off topic

But I was wondering about the international VEB readers. Most of you are from the US (right?), but I would like to know which countries we have covered. I read about Thailand recently. I myself am Dutch but live in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Do we at least cover all the continents?

by Woodwork on Sep 12, 2008 12:01 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not international

But I’m curious about how someone from the Netherlands develops an interest in baseball—and are you a Cardinal fan, or do you just find this site interesting?

by Youneverknow on Sep 12, 2008 12:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd like to hear from Woodwork, too

I hear Dutch baseball enthusiasts are really dedicated. I also used to follow Robert Eenhoorn when he was a minor leaguer for the Yankees.

by random on Sep 12, 2008 12:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To continue the history lesson.......

Since 1992 I bi-annualy go to the Harlem Baseball Week with my friends. A 10 day tournament that almost always features some American college team. The only way to see top players in action close to (our) home. Saw Strassbourg pitch in july, he’s impressive. Other participants in the past included Chris Sabo, Mike Pagliarulo and more recently Teixeira and Ricky Weeks. And off course, on the Cuban team Amaury Marti. Also, we hosted the 1986 and 2006 Amateur World Championships.

And Eenhoorn is our national coach now, though it’s his last year. Other Dutchies in the majors: Rikkert Faneyte (I actually played against him when I was young), Jurrjens, van den Hurk, Balentien, and Ponson (!?). Our finest hour were the Olympics in Sydney, when we beat Cuba 4-2.

by Woodwork on Sep 12, 2008 1:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you saw amaury marti in person? did your eyeballs explode from the sheer awesome?

i find it really interesting to hear your perspective. i am hopeful baseball can continue to gain more of an international presence. i’m sure it will never rival soccer (or futbol, or whatever) throughout the world or anything. but it is pretty cool to see the game we love so much here in the U.S. (and the caribbean, and central and south america, and japan, taiwan, and south korea, and now the netherlands somewhat and toronto a little bit too…) gain more popularity.

by mattybobo on Sep 12, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

huh. maybe his effect on the eyes relates to your merits as a person.

evil people get exploded eyeballs. really good people get their cataracts fixed or something.

by mattybobo on Sep 12, 2008 1:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Speaking of Ricky Weeks...

…I have herd that his days in a Brewer uni are just about over – what do we all think about him manning 2nd base for us next year?

by The MooCow on Sep 12, 2008 1:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2 points to my post

1. I think Ricke Weeks is immensely talented, but I don’t think he’s particularly good at baseball.

2. Where did you hear this about him being done as a Brewer? I keep pretty close tabs on mlbtraderumors.com and don’t remember seeing anything about that. Plus, I highly doubt they re-sign Durham this offseason especially when he can’t even beat out Weeks for playing time as it is.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 1:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I read it somewhere this week as well.....

Nothing definitive, just suggesting that he may be the odd man out of the infield next year.

No way they’d move him within the division, and I don’t think I want him anyways.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 12, 2008 1:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if he's the odd man out

who is the even man in? Do they plan on moving Escobar up from AA? Or are they looking to acquire a free agent?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 2:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gotta be Escobar up, Hardy over

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Sep 13, 2008 8:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you can remember back that far...

Did you used to post to the old pre-web USENET group in the early ’90s? It was someone Dutch in that forum got me following Eenhoorn. I think it came up as part of a discussion about Rikkert Faneyte, who was a center field prospect for the Giants about then.

by random on Sep 12, 2008 1:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yup

That was me. Small world.

by Woodwork on Sep 12, 2008 2:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The first rule of Usenet

Is that we don’t talk about Usenet

by FlimtotheFlam on Sep 12, 2008 7:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Both

While baseball is not a very popular sport in the Netherlands, we do play. My dad took me to see baseball games since I was 6, and I played for about 20 years. When I was 15, in 1985, I started listening to games (AFRTS) on my transistor radio. Lousy reception, all at night due to the time difference, so not easy but very entertaining. 1985 was a good year for the Cards (up until …., thank you Don!), and when one of my aunts went to the states she asked me which cap she should bring me. It was a close call between the Cardinals and the Orioles (I liked birds), but I made the right decision. So, baseball through my dad, Cardinals for the logo and the 1985 season. Never looked back. (Although without internet, it wasn’t easy. I bought USA today every friday to keep up, there was literaly no other way to keep informed. That’s why I looooove the internet) BTW I was amazed at that time that when I sent a letter to the Cardinals a couple of weeks later I received a signed Felix Jose (remember him?) baseball card. Too bad he never panned out.

And VEB (and other blogs like future redbirds etc.) are a very valuable source of information. Absolute top-quality. Thanks to all contributors for that.

by Woodwork on Sep 12, 2008 12:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Felix Jose!

1991 All Star with a wicked perm!

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 12, 2008 1:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

dude

didn’t he get some Fernando Tatis-like stat one game?

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 1:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You may be thinking of Hard Hitting

Mark Whitten.

I had high hopes for both of them.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 12, 2008 1:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep

in game 2 of a double header. He had one in the first game for 5 on the day.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 12, 2008 1:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

I think you’re right. maybe it was some of the monster home runs Felix Jose hit.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 1:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a fun team would have Whiten and Jose in the outfield

with Tatis at 3B. you might be able to beat the Rangers’ 33 runs on the right day with that lineup, with Pujols thrown in. ridiculous

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 1:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That would be a fun exercise

The all-time all-Cardinals “having their best day ever”-per position team

by Woodwork on Sep 12, 2008 1:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

without Pujols,

you could also put up goose eggs for a week with that lineup.

by stlfan on Sep 12, 2008 1:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

true

it would almost be as bad as a team of ryan howards

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 2:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought he had at least one.....

Really good season, no? I’m too lazy to look it up right now.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 12, 2008 1:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A 139 OPS+ season

sandwiched between 127 and 116.

Also, he’s only 33 now!?! (huge grain of salt with that one)

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 12, 2008 1:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also, he’s only 33 now!?!

That might be the most amazing thing I’ve heard all week.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 1:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's tatis

Jose is 43.

Both of those still seem young.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 12, 2008 1:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually he's 43.

So I can stop with the splitting headache trying to wrap my mind around the fact that i was the same age as Felix Jose.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 1:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Even that's a little tough to swallow

What got me last year (or maybe it was the year before?) was that I had 2 personal observations.

1. I was older than Josh Hancock.

2. I’m exactly the same size as Yadier Molina (although, I think he could still beat me in a race).

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 2:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As long as Albert is playing

like he does, I won’t feel too old. He’s eight months older than me, after all.

I too am yadi’s size. And I would love to race him.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 12, 2008 2:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

With or without the deep thigh bruise?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Sep 12, 2008 2:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good question

right now I could definitely take him. Healthy? I’m not positive. I did a lot of damage to my knees over the years and they just don’t go like they used to.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 2:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

124 and 123 OPS +'s

for Mr Jose.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 12, 2008 1:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What happened to that guy?

He was my favorite Cardinal there for a couple of years. did he get hurt?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Sep 12, 2008 2:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd like to thank Hurricane Ike

for not only giving us the chance to make up ground on the Astros for a few short days but also for forcing the Cubs/Astros to play an extra game after the last day of the season if the Astros are still in Wild Card contention.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 1:03 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's actually bad for the Cards

Chicago would have no reason to throw a quality starter at Houston in a game played after the regular season. The game would mean nothing to Chicago and everything to Houston.

One day, the dream will come true.

by brianp88 on Sep 12, 2008 2:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yup,

but I think they’re planning on playing the games Sunday and Monday so, IMO, benefits the Cards. Not that I really think the Cards can catch and pass 3 teams when 2 of those teams are playing really well right now.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 2:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By the way, how the hell are they going to play on Monday?

There is supposed to be a 25 foot high wall of water hitting the city. Is the stadium simply not going to flood?

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 3:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the whole thing looks pretty scary

http://www.khou.com/video/topstories-index.html?nvid=281900

and people are being told that it’s supposed to be disastrous, but are supposed to stay at home and hunker down

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 4:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Stupid me, I forgot

they have that hill. It’ll push all the water back toward the street. What a brilliant stroke of engineering.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 4:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 4:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

whoops

that is, in Houston they aren’t supposed to evacuate. some in Galveston have different ideas though; one old man saying he’d sit on the storm wall and watch the waves all day. guess he’ll be introduced to the sea

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 4:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They built a moat around the playing field

It is replacinging the warning track and foul lines. Homeplate will be an island and use bridges down the base lines. Players will have to cross using a tight rope. Ike will fill it with water. Then they are going to stock it with piranhas.

I hate that ballpark.

by Evilfrog on Sep 12, 2008 4:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Houston isn't exactly on the coastline

Houston really doesn’t have to worry about the storm surge as much as a place like Galvaston. I believe the biggest issue for Houston will be some flash flooding and wind damage (and stuff flying around in the wind) and tornadoes.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 4:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well, yeah....

i’m just saying the 25 foot storm surge really isn’t an issue for the city.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 4:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so the consensus at the bar last night

was that even cubs fans acknowledged that Brendan Ryan was safe at 3rd after the overslide. then Skip’s hit would have at least tied the game right? how much more bad luck can we have? to lose the last two games of that series by 1 run was disheartening to say the least

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 1:38 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Chicago comcast replays

made him look easily out, but they were from a home plate perspective.

I understand from a guy at work that they had views from the outfield on the postgame and he looked definitively out.

Hence my post on “will Ryan go in the permanent doghouse.” Oversliding a base like that is bad whether or not you’re eventually out.

by sdrone on Sep 12, 2008 2:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

true

too much pep there

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 2:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

overslide necessary?

I looked to me, that if he hadn’t slid that far away from the bag, he would have been tug out the first time.

Regardless, sac bunting is not a play I endorse. I much prefer attempting to hit to the right side or just taking a normal at bat.

by andujar on Sep 12, 2008 3:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

I didn’t like that call, it was too risky

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 3:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was pleased to hear TLR

put the blame on the bunt, not on Ryan, in the postgame conference. Referring to Pujols’ error later he said he didn’t like to coach the aggressiveness out of his players, so maybe Ryan’s aggressive slide is not doghouse worthy.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 12, 2008 3:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i don't like being tug out.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 4:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I do...

Personal preference i guess.

by Evilfrog on Sep 12, 2008 5:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess it all depends on the force of the tug...

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 6:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oversliding

was his only chance there. He went in full speed and had to go that far outside to avoid the tag. The real issue on that play was the sucktastic bunt.

by Evilfrog on Sep 12, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He has to stop

You can’t slide past the base and let go of the base.

by sdrone on Sep 12, 2008 5:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The same way everyone else in the league does it?

I don’t really understand the question. I think it’s safe to say that most players try to avoid sliding past the base and letting go . Otherwise you end up with the Eckstein – Ronny Cedeno tag from a couple of years ago that I can’t find my pic of.

by sdrone on Sep 12, 2008 5:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Brendan

He was going too fast to be able to stop himself. Look the slide was beautiful, he avoided the initial tag. he was going so fast he was not able to use the corner of the bag to stop himself.

If the bunt would have been executed properly B. Ryan would have been able to walk into 3B.

Ryan is not super human, he had no options going as fast as he was one little corner of the bag was not enough to hold onto.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 12, 2008 5:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Have you seen the play?

He slid so far to the outside of the bag, there was no way he could hold on. If he slid any closer to the bag, he is out on the tag. There was absolutely nothing wrong with Ryan’s performance there. He did everything he could to try to make up for Izturis’ screw up, and unfortunately, came up just a bit short.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Sep 12, 2008 5:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Eckstein, Cedeno

was a face first slide right over the top of the bag. Brendan Ryan had to try and grab the bag with the tips of his fingers and hold on, while going full speed on a wet surface.

Once he hit the grass, it was like a slip and slide.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 5:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as i said last night in the game thread

i slid like that one time in high school into 3rd, grabbed the bag to stop myself & popped my shoulder out. BOOG did the right thing, the last thing we need is another infielder with a bum shoulder. IZ2 is to blame for him being out. he fubared up the bunt. the pitch was up in his face, he should have pulled the bat back & waited for a better pitch to bunt. but alas because he sucks so hard, he did not.

such is life.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Sep 12, 2008 6:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Crazy

There is no way the Cards should pay a closer 70-80 innings $15 million a year. That is roughly 12.5% payroll (assuming Cards have payroll of 120 million) for 4% of the total innings pitched. The Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers, Mets are a better fit though the mets are the only team w/ closer needs.

by njnick on Sep 12, 2008 2:23 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Payroll

Has there been any talk lately about what size of payroll ownership is willing to take on? I thought early in the year they said it would stay under/around $100Million. I hope your mentioning of $120M is accurrate, i am just afraid it won’t be.

by toris34 on Sep 12, 2008 2:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Depends on what you want to do

Once again, Pujols is under contract for 3 more years. The team might want to make a serious effort at trying to win another World Series in that time.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 2:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just don't think that really factors into the equation

b/c I can’t see Albert leaving. I just don’t think it’s possible that the front office would be dumb enough to let him walk. He plays out his time in St Louis and you can milk 40 more years worth of merchandising out of him, the way they (rightfully) do with Stan.

Having the best players possible to take advantage of Albert’s upcoming peak years? That I see.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 12, 2008 2:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can't see him leaving either

but that’s probably because I’m in denial such a thing could happen

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 2:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

off topic (for today at least, but it would have fit in yesterday)

and i don’t mean to flog a dead horse here, but that’s probably what i’m doing.
so, i was wondering; if albert finishes the year with an OPS+ at 190 or above, that’s his career high. how unusual is it for a hitter to have an OPS+ of 190 or better? is it pretty rare like i think it should be?
i looked up the single season OPS+ records on baseball reference. turns out, albert’s currently in a five way tie, at OPS+ of 191, for the 89th best season OPS+ of all time. king kelly, deacon white, cap anson, and rogers hornsby have also had a 191 season mark. an OPS+ of 190 or above would put him in the top 101 single seasons of all time.
(there have only been 59 seasons of OPS+ 200 or better, and only george brett, jeff bagwell, frank thomas, sammy sosa, mark mcgwire, and barry bonds did so after 1961. so that’s pretty damn hard to do these days.)
also fun: albert’s tied at 7th in career OPS+ with dan brouthers and joe jackson. jackson needs no introduction, but he played his last leason in 1920. brouthers had 5 at bats in 1904, the rest of his career taking place in the 19th century. so, who ranks ahead of albert? from least to greatest: mickey mantle, rogers hornsby, lou gehrig, barry bonds, ted williams, babe ruth.
can anybody help me come up with a TLA (three letter acronym) for albert’s 2008 campaign?

by mattybobo on Sep 12, 2008 2:38 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

T.F.G.

Taken For Granted

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 12, 2008 2:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

RBD

Robbed By Delgado.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Sep 12, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I assumed

sarcasm was included in your first post.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 12, 2008 2:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oh, plenty of sarcasm

it’s kind of hard for me not to be sarcastic in some way.

by mattybobo on Sep 12, 2008 2:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

spoiler

I’m hoping to be in a position to spoil the Cubs’ season in our last series with them. If it helps us win the wild card in the process, then bonus.

by TNCardsFan on Sep 12, 2008 2:43 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we've gotta sweep

so we can have the season series

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 2:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This Weekend

Man if things went just right, things could really look different on Monday morning.

If Philly sweeps the Brewers and we sweep Pit. that changes everything.

Did ya’ll see the Brewers picked up Coffey?

by TNCardsFan on Sep 12, 2008 2:48 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

now that would be sweet

the Pirates owe us a few games

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 2:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

darn

i wanted coffey.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 12, 2008 3:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is Anybody Else....

….hearing Bow Wow Wow in their head after reading this remark?

“I want Coffey…”

;=8)

by The MooCow on Sep 12, 2008 3:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I want a LF

I don’t care if he can hit or not, I just want someone that Tony will trust enough to play and isn’t named Aaron Miles, Josh Phelps or Felipe Lopez.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 3:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Add Adam Kennedy to that list

and probably Nick Stavinoha as well.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 12, 2008 3:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What the Eff?

Whaaaah happened?

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 12, 2008 3:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tony thinks the bullpen is tired

and so he is going to go with Pineiro (hoping he can get 6 innings out of him). Then, Sunday is a bullpen game with Thompson ‘starting’ for only a few innings.

What the heck is Mitchell Boggs doing these days?

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 4:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I keep forgeting that Joel

and Kennedy are on the team.

What a couple of terrible contracts. they will make up about 15% of next years payroll.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 12, 2008 4:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Last night we were joking

‘Why does it seem like Wellemeyer pitches every other night?’, which of course led to the follow-up ‘Is Joel Pineiro even still on the team?’.

It’s hard to forget Adam Kennedy, since Tony has made him the starting 2B again. Kennedy has to be the only guy in the history of Tony reign here that can call out the manager for mistreatment in the papers and get MORE playing time as a result.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 4:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's because

He is the only one that play 2nd base with out killing the team defensively.

by Evilfrog on Sep 12, 2008 4:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's sad

we have to carry 2 defensive specialists, one at SS and one at 2B in games we lost by 1 run each.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 4:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and six runs :)

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Sep 12, 2008 5:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Friday night lineup

Per Bernie:

Izturis 6
Phelps 9
Pujols 3
Ludwick 8
Lopez 5
Stavinoha 7
LaRue 2
Pineiro 1
Barden 4

-B

by dralexp on Sep 12, 2008 4:32 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Barden at 2B

Lopez at 3B?

He’s doing it again. Just like last year. He’s taking a natural 3B and and natural 2B and flipping them. Why does he keep doing this? What is he trying to prove? Replace ‘Felipe Lopez’ with ‘Miguel Cairo’ and it is last September all over again.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 4:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, Brian Barden was a 3B

considered one of the best in the PCL two years ago. Then, he comes to St. Louis in September, LaRussa puts him at SS, Brendan Ryan at 2B and Miguel Cairo at 3B.

Barden gets sent down to AAA in 2008 and is turned into a SS.

He’s a better defensive 3B but plays SS because he doesn’t feel his bat is good enough (power wise) to play 3B. Since we aren’t really concerned about that, it makes no sense for him to play 2B and Lopez to play 3B. They should be flipped.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 4:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Scout.com
Defense: Slick is the best word to describe Barden’s fielding. His defense is stellar, and always has been (he was twice voted the best defensive infielder in college by Baseball America) with fantastic range and a strong accurate arm he saves a lot of doubles and dares even the fastest hitters to bunt on him.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 4:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look at it this way

Maybe “the organization” is looking for a middle infield solution.

by sdrone on Sep 12, 2008 5:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

tony fooled everybody again

he thinks pineiro can go deeper in the game, and wants to wait until sunday for the “bullpen game” now.

by adiueordie on Sep 12, 2008 5:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

am I missing something?

is there a starter hurt? or is this all because Lohse is suspended?

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 5:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So

Is Phelps in right better than Miles in left?
Or Miles at second, Barden at third, and Lopez in left?

Is Brian Barton unable to play?

by adiueordie on Sep 12, 2008 5:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's freaking pinch run

pinch hit AND played the field since returning.

This goes into the ‘Colby Rasmus not healthy enough to play’ theme of the day. You’ve had him do all 3 things he is going to have to do in a game, if he isn’t healthy enough to do them…don’t play him at all. If he is, start him when need be.

Need be now.

I wasn’t yelling at you CFiC

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 5:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ok

yeah, he should be freaking starting. I don’t think TLR has much confidence in the guy despite his potential

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 5:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He looked awesome swinging the bat too.

He was about an hour late on those 90 mph fastballs. Think the oblique injury might have had something to do with that?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 6:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly

this lineup should be:
Izturis 6
Barton 9
Pujols 3
Ludwick 8
Lopez 7
Barden 5
LaRue 2
Pineiro 1
Miles 4

I just don’t get LaRussa sometimes. He’s even convinced himself that Lopez is a 3B.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 12, 2008 5:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

while we could do worse

I hope Larussa turns over a new leaf or something next year. hell, he might even retire. but then, I’m not sure who could do better than him… maybe Oquendo? the guy is so quiet that I have no idea what his managing philosophy would be. hopefully a combination of Whitey and Tony’s better traits.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 5:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd like to see Moz go for someone like that

a statician with a love of baseball would be an interesting manager

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 5:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Managing a baseball team isn't hard.

Its not like actually hitting a ball or throwing a pitch. You looks at data, understand what the data does, and just as importantly, does not tell you. Then you make the choices to attempt to maximize you attempt to reach the playoffs.

A managers job is:
1: Put the players in a position to contribute to a winning team.
2: Get the most they can out of the players they are given.
3: Adjust to the dynamics of the season. Injuries will occur so flexibility is required.
4: Look after the health of the team. Getting someone hurt to win a game generally doesn’t help over the long season.

The managers job is NOT:
1: To complain about the dress of players. Let them wear their socks, glasses, and hats as they wish.
2: To play hunches. Hunch is just another way to say, complete wild ass guess.
3: To push players beyond their limits. If someone is hurt, rest them, then put them back out there once they can contribute again.
4: To “trust” players. You evaluate ability then use those abilities as best you can. Just because someone was great in the past is no indication they can still perform now. Again, reacting to a dynamic season is critical.

by DriverZn on Sep 12, 2008 6:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow

I never knew being the head coach of a baseball team was so easy, but thanks to your easy “4 Do’s and 4 Don’ts” I think I understand it much better. I’ll be sure to implement your 8 bullet points this next spring.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 6:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't

the highest level I’ve reached is assistant coach on a varsity baseball team. Really doesn’t change the fact that the above statement is about as ridiculous a statement as i’ve ever heard. I’m sure I could come up with a quickie Do’s and Don’ts list for either one of your occupations, but that probably wouldn’t be fair to what you do, would it?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 12, 2008 11:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

damn

why does every nights lineup have to be worse than the previous one?

recent lineups anyway

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Sep 12, 2008 6:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

mlb.tv

starting tonight, premium subscribers can choose between home and away feeds.

why did they wait until september to do this??

by adiueordie on Sep 12, 2008 5:04 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

keep people interested

whose teams are out of contention?

by Evilfrog on Sep 12, 2008 5:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i guess so...

whatever. mlb.tv is nice if you don’t live in st. louis (i’ve lived in tennessee this year) but if i had direct tv i would way rather have extra innings. i’m moving back to st. louis in a week, though, so i don’t see while i’ll be using it anymore after that.
i can’t get the highest quality feeds on this computer because they don’t work with vista, for some stupid reason. you can’t choose which feed (home/away) you get (until now) and i’m so sick of the same five commercials that they replay during every “break in the action”.

soo ready to be back in the stl though, and catching a couple games at busch before the season’s over.

off to work. see you guys around 9:30 in the game thread probably.

by adiueordie on Sep 12, 2008 5:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not sure what you mean

but i run vista and get the HQ feeds just fine

by FunkeeC on Sep 12, 2008 6:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

missing out on the pre- and post-game interviews

is the most annoying bit, to me. I would have to pay a bundle every month out here to get FSMW, though, so it isn’t worth it to me…

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 12, 2008 7:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if you have Dish Network

it’s only $5.99 a month for all the sports channels. sure all out of market MLB,NBA,NHL games are blacked out, but at least you get the pre & post game shows. and a ton of college football, basketball & baseball. i highly recommend it.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Sep 12, 2008 7:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i noticed that last night

very nice feature.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 12, 2008 7:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maybe we should get Oswalt next year

he’s pitching much much better than he was earlier in the year

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 12, 2008 5:39 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hell No Francisco

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/saving-in-anaheim

“he looks clearly to be on a decline and he’ll be coming off a (meaningless) record-setting season. It’s a recipe for an overvalued contract that’s not likely to bear much fruit for whichever team signs on the dotted line.”

Stay far far far away.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Sep 13, 2008 8:45 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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