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an extension for wellemeyer?

after the phillies lost yesterday, i was thinking the cardinals might climb past them and reclaim 2d place in the wild-card standings; instead they’re in 4th, as the astros moved past them. in truth, the three teams are tied --- they all have 67 losses. houston was 9.5 games behind the cardinals just 6 weeks ago; since then our team has gone 20-19 while the astros have gone 32-11. that’s right ---- 32-11, a .744 winning percentage. they’ve been without carlos lee during the bulk of this run; who’s picked up the slack? you’ll laugh. geoff blum has slugged .534 during the last 43 games; his career slg is .390. kaz matsui (career .393 slugger) has posted a .565 slg pct, and ty wigginton (career .463 slugger) has put up a .748 mark with 14 homers. to put that into context, pujols over the same stretch has slugged .805 with 15 homers; wigginton, in essence, has turned into albert for a third of the season. the astros’ run differential during the streak is +49, which is very good but not all that much better than the cardinals’ figure, +30 --- certainly not enough better that it should propel them 10 games upward in the standings. for the season as a whole the astros still have a negative run differential, -13, yet they’re 12 games over .500.

the game last night was essentially a replay of the sunday-night rubber game at wrigley last month, the last one carp started. he left in the 6th with an injury, you might remember, and right after he departed the cardinal infield botched two plays and turned a small rally into a 5-run outburst. last night, the miscues turned a minor threat into 4 runs. they lost a run when soriano nailed a man at the plate, another echo of the august meeting at wrigley --- he tossed a guy out in the opener of that match to keep a crucial run off the board. cubs made the plays afield, cards didn’t; i realize that’s not very penetrating analysis, but sometimes the game is not very complicated..

switching gears: for all the talk about re-signing looper and / or lohse after the season, i haven’t heard anybody make this suggestion: try to lock up wellemeyer for 2 or 3 years. he’s in his final year of arbitration eligibility and likely (educated guess) to get somewhere in the neighborhood of $3.5m for 2009; if they guarantee the guy $5m for next year and $7m for 2010, would he turn it down? i realize he’s only had 1 good season, but the cards made a similar commitment to joel pineiro last winter (2 years, $13m) based on 10 good starts. wellemeyer's season has been far better than that. if you take away one ill-advised start --- the june 13 pounding against philadelphia --- his era for the year is 3.38; brandon webb and dan haren both have 3.41 eras, for comparison’s sake. you can accuse me of cherry-picking, but the june 13 start never should have been made; wellemeyer should have been on the dl with a sore elbow (that was his only start between june 5 and june 26). it’s the second straight year wellemeyer’s elbow has acted up, which may be why the cardinals aren’t willing to gamble on a multi-year deal, but he’s got way more upside than a lohse / looper type and probably can be had for a smaller commitment of years and dollars. if it’s a choice between 2 yrs / $12m for a guy with a #2 starter ceiling, or 3 yrs / $25m for a guy with a #3 starter ceiling . . . . not a very difficult choice, is it? of course, we don’t know whether welley would be interested; he might want to keep his options open and try for a bigger payday in 2010. but i’d like to see the cardinals pursue this possibility, they gave wainwright a $15m guarantee based on 1 good season, and welley’s 2008 (non-cherrypicked) compares favorably to wainwright’s 2007 in most respects:

W-LERAIPHBBSOHRBB/9K/9FIP
welleymeyer 08 12-6 3.74 168.1 155 51 116 21 2.7 6.2 4.36
wainwright 07 14-12 3.70 202 212 70 136 13 1.9 6.0 3.90

wainwright’s performance, you’ll recall, earned him the "ace" designation; i’d argue that wellemeyer has been at least as good this year. he’ll probably end up with 190 innings or so, close to the 202 wainwright threw in 2007; he’s averaging 6 innings a start, vs wainwright’s 6.1 ip/gs average last year. not a big difference. since the all-star break (10 starts) he has gone 5-2 with a 3.25 era and a stingy .681 opponent ops. the elbow does give you pause, but he has thrown 110+ pitches in 4 of his last 6 outings, and 7 or more innings in 3 or his last 5, with no apparent ill-effects . . . . .

ok, now i’ve probably jinxed him; the guy is pitching tonight. at any rate, if the cards are going to invest multiple years in a pitcher this off-season, i’d just as soon have them invest in wellemeyer as in any of the other names you hear floating around.

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Yes

Sign him up! I saw Welley pitch last year in Pittsburgh and thought ‘he would make a terriffic starter next year’, and he did. I would like to lock him up maybe even go three years. If we are able to sign Lowe and have a rotation on Wainman, Carp, Lowe, Welley, and Youngster we will have one of the best roation in the NL. We will be in Pittsburgh this weekend, but only to see one game. Wainwrights start on Saturday.

Strange enough we decided long ago to go to the Astroles game next weekend. Why!? well, my son is a huge Lynyrd Skynyrd fan and they are playing a free concert after the Pirate game on the 20th. Then yesturday my wonderful wife walks into the room with two tickets in her hands for this Saturdays game! She says, " I couldn’t go through the season without seeing my boys! Specially Albert!" Now that’s a wife! So we will be in section 112. Any VEB’er who might be there stop by and I will buy you a beer! Look for the number 37 and the name “BLESSING” on the jersey.

by nybirdfan on Sep 11, 2008 9:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree 100%

I’d say that he is the one most worth it in terms of talent and the one most attractive in terms of price. He is developing very nicely at this point. Why not try and lock him up to a three-year deal this offseason?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 11, 2008 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If we bring Dave Duncan back

Lowe would be one of the top names I’d go after. That’s a match made in heaven if ever there was one. Even if Elder Dunc isn’t back, Lowe’s still pretty damn good.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Sep 11, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i dont think i would complain about a 2/$12 mil

there is a good chance he will need to be DL’d each year for something but the production you will get while he is on the field will be worth that contract. for that small of value and few of years i would probably be ecstatic over it as opposed to resigning Lohse or Loop.

that said with they way our farm is comping along i wouldnt be too worried if Welle did walk after next year because we would have Garcia coming back and Mortensen and Todd all ready by 2010.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Sep 11, 2008 9:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Pujols for MVP

The sad thing is that Lopez’s errors, bad starts by pitchers, and late inning meltdowns by the ’pen may cost Pujols the MVP.

His numbers are absurd and him not being the runaway MVP is a farce of epic proportions.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 11, 2008 9:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He'll win it

Looking at the playoff teams, the only minor candidates are Delgado, Braun and Ramirez. Ramirez hasn’t been that good, Delgado is actually the 4th most valuable on his team based on win shares and I don’t think Braun gets the pub he will need to win it.

It’s down to Berkman and Pujols as long as both finish strong.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Manny Ramirez.....

“Ramirez hasn’t been that good”

Hardcore Legend

.396 AVG/ .488 OBP/ .776 SLG/ 1.264 OPS/ 14 HR/ 40 RBI

Ummmm that is pretty good.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 11, 2008 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aramis Ramirez.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I see..... I thought Hardcore was talking about Manny...

My bad, I was like surely he knew Manny has been on fire

by ICbirdfan on Sep 11, 2008 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Manny's only problem with the MVP is

the NL that comes before it. People though are starting to talk about Aramis as if he has a shot at it, not likely.

by StLHugo on Sep 11, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

though aramis might win the "most surprisingly slim" award

he really seems like this slimmed down this year.

OMG HE WUZ DOIN TEH ROIDS!!!

by mattybobo on Sep 11, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i bet it was a tapeworm that caused his sudden weight loss

yeah, that’s it. he had a tapeworm

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Sep 11, 2008 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

“the tapeworm ate my PEDs”

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 11, 2008 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sigh

please be wrong! please??? as i signed in earlier, the “around sbn” headline read “delgado homers twice, again, in mets’ win.”
i just get this creepy feeling that he’s not gonna win it… blah. i would find that personally more disappointing by far than us missing the playoffs.

by mattybobo on Sep 11, 2008 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Pujols doesn't win it

I will be complaining for months on end. I will even write angry letters if I have to.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lead story at sports illustrated online

is why Delgado should not win MVP and Pujols should.

by Youneverknow on Sep 11, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i cant find it

do you have a link?

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles

Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Sep 11, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw it on SI.COM this morning... It was the cover story.

It had a picture of Delgado, but was giving all the stats and props to albert. It was right there, but I just went to the site and don’t see it now. It probably moved off to the side.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 11, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i saw it too

but i’m encouraged that there’s also a foxsports article saying the same thing!

by mattybobo on Sep 11, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

clutch

Dayn Perry’s article had a nice stat comparison on ‘clutch’ performances. NO CONTEST!

by Recon on Sep 11, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Phillies

I was worried about Utley if the Phils make the playoffs. Just like last year when Rollins was good down the stretch on a team that made the playoffs, compared to Pujols, who was excellent down the stretch (and for the year), on a club that missed the postseason. I very, very much hope that I’m wrong.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 11, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Go Phillies?

Is that what we want? The Phillies to sweep and we rip off 4 straight here to tie the Brewers as they go into their crucial series vs the Cubs?

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 10:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Sounds right..

But the damn Astro’s are the team to worry about now I think…..those guys just do it every year!! AGH!!

by Timbo02 on Sep 11, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Welley

I’d say wait until after the arbitration hearings. I would then make a multiple year deal based on that. If Welley gets 3.5 million, as you suggest, offer him 3.5 for 2009, 5 for 2010, and 6.5 for 2011. An increase of 1.5 million per season. See if that works. If he gets 3 million, offer 4.5 and 6 for the next two years. I’d say try to go as low as possible. The assumption being that if he “regresses back to the norm” you won’t get hit as hard. If he regresses, then he’s back to the “Brad Thompson role” of being a spot starter/long reliever.

by stlfan on Sep 11, 2008 10:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Minor quibble

Wainwright’s $15 m base wasn’t just on his 1 good year in the majors. He was a quality starter in the minors and a reliable reliever in his first season.

Wellemeyer has had a body of work behind him that hasn’t been very good at all. He’s been fantastic this year and I love the guys attitude, but something else to consider is how much of his success is based on Dave Duncan and how much will he suffer once Duncan is gone next season?

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 10:16 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think we need to think of Duncan.....

When assessing ALOT of our pitchers, and how we’ll do business going forward. I still think his loss will hurt us in ways we can’t imagain. Guys like Looper/Welly/etc, I think Duncan is owed alot of successes. When Duncan leaves, management is going to have to pay up for more polished FA acquisitions. Gonna be a big change.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That wouldn't be the worst thing in the world

especially with guys like Sheets and Burnett on the market this year.

Then again, a new approach may help guys like Perez who is already using terms like ‘pitch to contact’ when describing Dave Duncan’s effect on him.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Replacement for Dunc

I used to be a huge Matheny for Pitching Coach guy, and I still think he would be a good fit, but I am almost wondering if Marty Mason might make a good choice and use Matheny as the Bullpen/Catching coach. Either that or I would think Dyar Miller would get the job, any other candidates that you see as possibles?

by StLHugo on Sep 11, 2008 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure.....

I really have a hard time believing Duncan will leave if Tony stays. If he did though, I have no idea where Tony would look. On the flip side, if Tony left, who knows how that would play out either. Is Oquendo going to be the choice? If so, who would he want as his pitching coach? I’d think a young manager would want an experienced pitching coach. IMO, the worse thing we could do, and I’m pretty sure it won’t happen, would be to bring on a new staff of guys that have very little experience at the position we’d be putting them at.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You mean IF Duncan is gone next season?

I know Welly gives Duncan a lot of credit. Wasn’t Wellemeyer a pretty good starter in the minor leagues? I know he came up as a Starter but once he got called to the majors in Chicago they put him in the pen. Were he sucked it up and then continued to suck it up in KC.

by Evilfrog on Sep 11, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Todd Wellemeyer in the minors

His minor league stats are here

He was not a stud starter, by any means, but over 500 IP, over 500 K, 225 walks, under 500 hits against.
WHIP was 1.4, ERA over 4.

by stlfan on Sep 11, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

his biggest improvement

seems to be his walk rate is down.(looking at AAA stats) Keeping his whip down. So that might be something that stays with if Duncan leaves

by Evilfrog on Sep 11, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wainwright's extension

was also a big bit of PR. He, Yadi, and Albert are the face of the franchise going forward and (IMO) ownership wanted to make that clear last offseason.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 11, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still think a bit of an offensive overhaul is needed.....

For next year. And not just sticking Rasmus in the OF, signing Lopez to play 2B, and finding a SS. I can’t say I know exactly what to suggest, but games last night have become way to common. I’ve never seen a team that can coast through 7-8 innings, and then decide to take good AB’s in the 9th inning. Seems like this team does one of three things offensively. The either explode for a ton of runs, score a few early and do nothing the rest of the game, or do nothing all game and get a couple late. Something isn’t right, the balance, the makeup, something. Too many streaky hitters. I dunno.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 10:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

But really, though, what overhaul can they have?

Hitting soft tossing lefties has been a problem since 2006.

2006
1B – Pujols
2B – Miles/Belliard
SS – Eckstein
3B – Rolen/Speizio
OF – Edmonds, Duncan, Wilson, Encarnacion, Taguchi
C – Molina/Bennett

2008
1B – Pujols
2B – Miles/Kennedy/Lopez
SS – Izturis/Ryan
3B – Glaus
OF – Ankiel, Ludwick, Skippy, Barton, Duncan, Mather
C – Molina/Larue

That’s a pretty massive overhaul in a two year span and we still suck!

I’m with you though, this has to be figured out.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

is it a sign of the apocalypse...

when you guys agree?

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Sep 11, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still suck?

We’re 4th out of 16 in runs scored in a pitchers park. We’re tied with the Cubs for the highest team OPS+ in the NL. Still suck??

Kosuke Fukudome: $55 million.262 .362 .382
Skip Schumaker: $Free .305 .365 .416
Skippy needs a new publicist

by joker24 on Sep 11, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's what I'm saying

how does that suck? why won’t people admit that we have had a lot of injuries, our ace was out for a long time, and our bullpen imploded a few times. sure our offense could be a tad better, but it would seem like trying to compensate for other mistakes rather than fixing the root of the problem.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

think our frustrating situation this year has somewhat magnified the team's flaws in a lot of people's eyes

although maybe hardcore was just referring to “sucking” in certain situations… ie against lefties, offense going to sleep after posting 3 early runs, etc.

by mattybobo on Sep 11, 2008 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how do we address that problem?

go right after someone who mashes lefties? is there such a person available?

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Barton

But no serouisly. Had BB been healthy and adviable to platoon with skippy against LHP we would have been in much better shape this year IMHO.

by Evilfrog on Sep 11, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

or mather...

Historically, Glaus, though he had an off-year vs LHP.

Renteria is also good vs LHP, though he may be in decline.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 11, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yep

more injuries, and not playing those guys more I suppose. and of course Glaus had to have an off year vs. lefties.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Glaus was supposed to mash lefties

.956 OPS for his career vs LHP, 1.235 OPS in 2007, .735 OPS this year.

St. Louis is just a black hole of suck vs LHP. Pujols is just about the only guy who can survive it.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols sucks all the talent around him so he can put up .362 .467 .655?

It’s really the only explanation and he figures no one will notice if he only steals their LHP skills. Maybe he shouldn’t be the MVP after all.

(I’m afraid the BWAA just got a new agrument)

Kosuke Fukudome: $55 million.262 .362 .382
Skip Schumaker: $Free .305 .365 .416
Skippy needs a new publicist

by joker24 on Sep 11, 2008 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe he's in fact using some form of dark sorcery to sap their baseball life-force.

i don’t think the bbwaa would hold that against him. jimmy rollins essentially won the mvp because he made a bet (i’ll bet you we win the division and not the mets!) this is almost a form of gambling. and barry bonds just ate lots and lots of wheaties.

by mattybobo on Sep 11, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No no no no no, I've got it

Albert Pujols IS the Large Hadron Collider. He is forming tiny black holes that first just steal LHP hitting ability, pretty soon we’re all going to be slowly sucked into France/Switzerland——the world is ending!

On that note, from what I gather it’d take 4 years for the earth to suck into the impossible-to-form black hole created by the LHC. How unbelievably awesome would those 4 years be and would that not be the most spectacular way to die?

Kosuke Fukudome: $55 million.262 .362 .382
Skip Schumaker: $Free .305 .365 .416
Skippy needs a new publicist

by joker24 on Sep 11, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nice post

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hah. Be rendered atom from atom? ouch!

but I love the Schumaker tidbit in your sig.

by sdrone on Sep 11, 2008 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well that wouldn't be so bad

Being stuck on an inescapable path to France would hurt the most but whatever. It would be fitting that the end of the world is that France sucks so much.

Kosuke Fukudome: $55 million.262 .362 .381
Skip Schumaker: $Free .306 .364 .417
Skippy needs a new publicist

by joker24 on Sep 11, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

France is one of my favorite places I've ever been

It does not suck

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Sep 11, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

what’s so bad about it? it seems like a stereotype to diss the french

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i agree it's cliche.

i like france too, but i have no problem with poking fun at it. i think british comedian eddie izzard says it best: “I’m very positive on the French. I – my family way back was French, so I’m – just – yeah, I go with it, but they are kind of, well, f***ing French…”

by mattybobo on Sep 11, 2008 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bingo

The cities and countryside are cool, the people are anti-Pujols. The people are unfortunately are part of what I would call “France”, hence France sucks.

Kosuke Fukudome: $55 million.262 .362 .381
Skip Schumaker: $Free .306 .364 .417
Skippy needs a new publicist

by joker24 on Sep 11, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nah

there are cool and lame people all over the world

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

But then there are the French…..

by Woodwork on Sep 11, 2008 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and i think if you checked

most of those lame people immigrated from France…..

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There was a study not too long ago about tourists

They polled countries on who were the best and worst tourists and what places were best to go as a tourist.

Not only did France come in last as far as where to visit and who is the worst tourist……get this……..French tourists came in last in their own country as being the worst tourists. So, you might be on to something. I’ll see if I can come up with the article.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

4 years? yeah right.

clearly you’ve never seen the sci-fi channel original film documentary “”http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0433883/" target="new">the black hole" which, coincidentally, took place right here in st. louis, MO. a secret scientific research facility located underneath the st. louis science center accidentally created an artificial black hole which threatened to destroy the st. louis area within hours. no only that, but a black hole monster was released to make mayhem upon the populace. i’m sure the re-enactments embellished a little, but it was pretty top notch stuff.

by mattybobo on Sep 11, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As scientifically sound as that Sci Fi Channel "docudrama" was...

Noted “hard” sci-fi author and mathematical big brain Larry Niven postulates that a microscopic or quantum black hole would take somewhere between “years and centuries” to consume a planet roughly Earth-sized. He apparently did those calculations a little over 30 years ago when he wrote “The Hole Man.”

So I figure we’ve got a lot more than just 4 years. Probably closer to 50-100 at a minimum.

Terrific short story, btw. I highly recommend it.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 11, 2008 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Larry Niven, father of the flash mob

If he turns out to be a Cubs fan, I’d be so disappointed.

by random on Sep 11, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

in all seriousness, could there be something about the stadium that contributes to this?

i know correlation is not causation, but it’s really weird to me that they can’t hit lefties from 2006 to today. i don’t know much about park factors, but i do know they’re probably more complicated than they seem to the uninitiated (like me). anybody got an idea?

by mattybobo on Sep 11, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder if it has something to do with approach?

Perhaps McRae is teaching them to be patient at the plate, ignoring pitches on the outter half and blasting pitches on the inside.

Vs a LHP, the pitcher can live on the outside corner, the Cardinals power is zapped because they won’t take it the other way with force and Tony insists on starting very RH’ded lineups usually vs LHP, thus giving us a whole team of slap hitting players vs LHP?

I really have no idea.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

could it possibly be as simple as a left-handed batting practice pitcher?

would that hurt anything?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I kinda put that one on a tee for ya.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In fairness to Randy

you can’t put him in that situation. Forcing him to throw a strike would be like forcing me to fly by flapping my arms.

Ain’t going to happen.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

put it on a tee?

why not just set up a tee instead of force randy to pitch against lefties? at least there’d be fewer walks that way. villone, i’m looking at you too.

by mattybobo on Sep 11, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Doubt it

this was an issue in Busch II as well and on the road.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2005 was pretty even

that was the last time we had success against LHP. Where is Abraham Nunez when you need him?

by ubeddie on Sep 11, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For all the venom thrown at Miles....

he is the antithesis of a streaky hitter. He has really been good for this team. Do I think he can play this well next year? I don’t really know.

This is the offense you get when you add power and plate discipline to a lineup. A very dangerous lineup that is incapable of manufacturing runs. With this lineup, we will continue to score runs in bunches.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Sep 11, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, definitely sign him

Whatever it takes. Let’s get some stability in this starting rotation, insead of “musical chairs” every year. Carpenter, Wainwright, Wellemeyer, possibly Lohse and a good FA sounds pretty good, especially since 2009 is supposed to be “our year,” according to many people here. It won’t be if you keep changing most of your staff every season.

by ccthemovieman on Sep 11, 2008 10:23 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Give me this....

Carp
Wainwright
Wellemeyer
Lohse
Looper

For a full year. Who are we gonna get that is better than those 5 ?

Address the bullpen and the middle infield with some $$$.

I’d even give 2B to Lopez just keep him there and not in the OF or 3B. Pony up for a SS(Renteria) and a closer ( Fuentes).

Let the prospects develop and your done.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Sep 11, 2008 11:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

But...

If they “give you” that…you’re not gonna be given that “for a full year.” It won’t happen. Looper and Welley will probably get sore arms and go on the 15 day DL once, missing 3 starts. Carpenter may not even be able to start the year…who knows. Waino got hurt this year, so I dunno about him. Lohse has had a pretty clean bill of health throughout his career.

by stlfan on Sep 11, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Who are we gonna get that is better than those 5 ?"

AJ Burnett is far and away better than anyone other than Carp or Wainwright. That said a lot depends on his contract desires. The Cardinals almost certainly won’t go over 3 years and Strauss was skeptical we’d see a contract over $10M this offseason. If there’s a pitcher to be had this offseason, he’s the one I want.

by azruavatar on Sep 11, 2008 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i like him too, but he's gonna cost too much

he’s walking away from 3 yrs / $36m, which means his asking price begins somewhere higher than that. his basic stats are starting to come into line with his strong peripherals - he’s currently 17-10 with a 4.31 era. too bad they didn’t lock him up in 2005-06 when they could have had him for $10m a year.

if there’s one case in which i agree with the “owners are cheap” argument, it’s that contract. burnett wanted to play for st louis, and the cardinals’ baseball people wanted him . . . . but the owners didn’t make it happen.

by lboros on Sep 11, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually

If Burnett opts out he’s walking away from 2 yrs / $24 M, as per Cot’s.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Sep 11, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All this clamoring for an impact player . . .

if the owners are serious about making an upgrade to the team, that’s the easiest place to add about 2-3 wins to the club and maybe more than that. I, too, am skeptical that he’d take a 3 year deal but but I’d hope the Cardinals would at least look at something like a 3/45 deal similar to the Jason Schmidt deal the Dodgers made. It’s impossible to know how those negotiations would play out but I’d be far more keen to dump money on Burnett than sign Wellemeyer to a Pineiro contract.

by azruavatar on Sep 11, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure...

but that may be the first ever reference to the “Jason Schmidt deal” that uses it as a positive example.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 11, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

his shoulder absolutely fell apart

there are parallels to be drawn medically (not that I agree with them — I think Burnett’s a good investment) but that’s got to fall, at least in part, on the evaluating physician’s shoulders. monetarily, more money for less years makes a lot of sense, imo.

by azruavatar on Sep 11, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Understand completely

And I happen to agree wrt Burnett, btw. After all, aren’t possible big signings like him one of the main benefits of saving all that money with numerous other inexpensive players coming via the farm system?

I just found the reference rather…intriguing.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 11, 2008 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the other one's that came to mind were

Andruw Jones and Rafeal Furcal. . . neither of those were particularly inspiring either.

by azruavatar on Sep 11, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not too mention

Burnett is another injury concern. and is he really that much better than Wellemeyer?

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Burnett is probably 2 wins better than Wellemeyer (at least) over 200 IP.

Remember that his peripherals are far better than Wellemeyer’s and that he’s posting those numbers in the AL East. It’s a significant difference

by azruavatar on Sep 11, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

eh...

you had to mention 200 ip.

That’s the issue with Burnett though, he’s only gone over 200 ip 3 times in his career and this is one of those years. Plus, the first time he did it (204 in 2002), the next year he sported 23 innings. Then the second time he did it (209 in 2005), the next year he went 135 innings.

He’s already at 200 wins right now. The biggest problem I have with him is his unreliable durability especially coming off a season that looks like he’ll top his career high in innings by a fairly comfortable margin.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And that's not the issue with Wellemeyer

He asked if Burnett was better than Wellemeyer; I simply used that as the baseline. I’m not claiming he’s going to pitch 200IP.

by azruavatar on Sep 11, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm just pointing it out

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok

and I’m just pointing out that it had no relevance to what I said

by azruavatar on Sep 11, 2008 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure it does

If not, you’d figure out how many wins better than Wellemeyer he is over 300 ip. You used 200 ip, yet he almost never throws 200 ip and when he does, he has a history of being hurt the next year.

So, I think it’s very relevant. Since he became a full-time starting pitcher 8 years ago, he’s averaged 147 innings per year (not including this year, if you do it jumps up to 154 innings). I find that relevant.

I’m not saying you are predicting 200 ip out of him next year or whatever. All I’m doing is putting real life information up against your numbers. Don’t take it the wrong way.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly. YOu have to figure out how many wins he gives you

over say 150 innings or something like that. So, who knows, 1.5 wins maybe.

by sdrone on Sep 11, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

who knows

Welley might improve by that much next year. I’m sure he has a better fastball, etc.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll take Derek Lowe

Less expensive, more durable

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Sep 11, 2008 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and he will be 36 next year

while i do like Lowe better than Burnett i wouldn’t go more than 2 years with him. Burnett i wouldn’t touch based on his price tag and injury concern. there is no way to get him for 3 years and that is the most i would give any pitcher on the wrong side of 30.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Sep 11, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he's a type a and wants to play on the east coast

big turnoff(the type a part, i could care less that he is an east coaster)

by VolsnCards5 on Sep 11, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why skeptical that we'd see a contract over 10M

if that is how the FO actually looks at things I am highly disappointed in them. You can’t count yourself out before it even starts.

Another year of retreads?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Sep 11, 2008 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can't go out and sign a pitcher for more than you pay Carp....

Any ace that comes in should not be paid more than Carp…

So if you can sign Burnett for Carp money then I’ll take him. Also as nice as it would be to have Burnett I don’t think it is realistic that they will sign him with Carp and Waino filling in the top two spots.

Hope I’m wrong. But the best bang for the buck in my opinion is that starting 5. Known quantities that are durable. Loop and Welly should hold up better next year. And show me a top notch pitcher that throws 200 innnings a year and then show me how we trade or pay for that guy.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Sep 11, 2008 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OT: Cubs/Astros

There’s talk of moving the Cubs/Astros series to a neutral site due to the Hurricane that’s supposed to go through Houston on Saturday. One of the sites being mentioned is Busch Stadium.

While I know we should be rooting for the cubs to beat the Astros, how is everyone going to feel when 20,000 cub fans drive down from Chicago, take over Busch and the endless supply of tickets? I know how I’m supposed to feel when these two teams meet with the Cardinals battling the Astros for a wildcard spot, but still………

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 11:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Neutral site?

I wouldn’t be happy about that if I were the Astros. The Rangers play in Oakland this weekend, so you’d figure the Astros would be looking into playing in Arlington.

by random on Sep 11, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It'll probably be raining there too

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

St. Louis

While there won’t be a hurricane in Missouri this weekend, it’s still supposed to rain pretty much non-stop between now and Monday or Tuesday.

by Robb on Sep 11, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow you're right. where isn't it going to be raining this weekend?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can we just send Ted Lilly to Houston to keep Brandon Backe company?

Get everyone else out.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let those two stand by to make sure

the stadium doesn’t get flooded.

Seems like the humanitarian thing to do.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, it's supposed to be pretty nasty

here in dallas most of the weekend. boooooooo.

by launchshuttle on Sep 11, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right now they're saying

Play it in Houston with a double header on Sunday and a game on Monday (which is an off day for both teams).

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

they're still saying

Two games postponed on ESPN. That bastion of journalism. cough

- Y.2.2

by Yadi2Second on Sep 11, 2008 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that would make sense

Friday and Saturday postponed. Play a double header on Sunday and then one game on Monday. But this might cause all kinds of problems if there is still an evacuation in effect on Sunday or there is damage or power outages in the city.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Off topic

does anyone know where I can find historical xFIP data by team?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 11, 2008 11:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

at the xFIP history site?

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

is that cleverness

or i am just clueless?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 11, 2008 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

I was being retarded

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wellemeyer

I haven’t seen him pitch much this year so I have a question for you guys.

What has he been doing different since putting on a Cardinals uniform? Having watched him pitch in a Cubs uniform (granted it was a few years ago) I never saw anything in the guy that led me to believe he could be a competent major league starter. What has Dave Duncan done with him?

---AC 00 00 00 - Believe

by mjk83 on Sep 11, 2008 11:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Walks

Since he became a starter last year his BB rate has started to decline, that to me is the biggest thing he has done. And I think he did it by lowering his velocity, he seemed to be overthrowing everything and lost some control, now he is focusing on 94ish fastballs with control vs 96 with none.

by StLHugo on Sep 11, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Control is better

Walks less people. He was walking .73 Batters every inning in chicago. Now he is walking .303 batters every inning in St. Louis

by Evilfrog on Sep 11, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Throwing strikes

He’s throwing 64% strikes instead of 61% for his career (which is a bigger difference than it sounds), first pitch strike 58% instead of 55%.

Kosuke Fukudome: $55 million.262 .362 .382
Skip Schumaker: $Free .305 .365 .416
Skippy needs a new publicist

by joker24 on Sep 11, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's it right there

throwing strikes. His BB rate is lower, to be sure, but it comes back to the strike % which, as joker says is up around Wainwright’s.

by chuckb on Sep 11, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Throwing strikes

Announcers, coaches, and players love to talk about “getting strike one” as if it’s some kind of choice the pitcher makes.

Ever notice that?

Nobody ever goes into the analysis of “how” you throw strikes. How does Wellemeyer throw stirkes? And why is he better at it now than before?

Some love for the organization here – obviously, last year Wellemeyer was released by KC for poor peformance. Someone, or ones, in the Cardinal organization made this deduction:

1. Welley has not had success because he can’t throw strikes
2. I believe he can throw strikes, if only he’d do “X”
3. We have the ability to teach him how to do “X”
4. He has the ability to learn fro us how to do “X” and in turn do “X”, which leads to throwing stirkes, which leads to success.

Aside from the “velocity” comment by Hugo, which is prescient, nobody has taken a shot at explaining what Wellemeyer’s “X” is. Can anyone do so? (And frankly, this could apply to any pticher, couldn’t it?)

Thanks.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Sep 11, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The X has seemed to be

reduced velocity to increase command/movement. Wellemeyer used to come in blowing smoke at 96 mph. Now, he pitches around 93 mph in an attempt to get better control on it.

It also appears that he starts alot of his pitches now in the middle of the plate and allows his natural movement to take it out of the hitter’s zone.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

At least he has a predictable natural movement

I think that was the main issue with Kip Wells. He had great movement, it just wasn’t consistent enough to be able to work with successfully.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just ran some numbers..

this is interesting to me. (Note that I’m not arguing with anyone, it’s just interesting.) When a pitcher throws 95+ (in general) everyone talks about him “blowing smoke” whereas 92-93 is a more “average” FB (a bit towards the high end of average, no doubt, but still not "smoke"). The difference in the time it takes a 93 mph fastball to get to the plate vs. a 96? Not much, 0.01386 s. Just 14 milliseconds reducing the batter’s response time by around 3%. I’d dare say that’s almost insignificant.

Now, the fact that a pitcher gets better command/movement on the (slightly) slower pitch is definitely NOT insignificant.

by ArkansasTravs on Sep 11, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

3% is very significant

a 3% reduction in an already near blink of the eye response time is very significant, with that fast of a fastball you almost have to start your swing before the ball leaves the pitchers hand, which is why deceptive deliveries work so well.

by StLHugo on Sep 11, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,

oops, premature. if you go 3% the other direction it probably has a frozen rope attached to it.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 11, 2008 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I say we make the leap

and sign Welley. he is doing better here than anywhere else, and even if Duncan leaves, it’s not like he is going to instantly forget how to pitch strikes, which is why he is so much better now. The guy seems to be a positive clubhouse persona too. He is one of the key reasons we are still in it, as miniscule a chance that is. would like to see him next year and the future, he will probably be more adjusted to starting as well.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 12:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The game finds you, doesn't it?

Say your an organization and you decide not to call up your three best positional prospects from AAA (a catcher, a third basemen and an OF’er). Then , let’s say that organization, in the span of 24 hours, loses a key player at all 3 of those positions for a week during the most crucial part of a pennant chase.

It’s almost like when you put players out of position and then the ball finds them.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 1:24 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

hahaha

Man that is great, but seriously, Yadi is out for a week? I hadn’t heard that yet.

by StLHugo on Sep 11, 2008 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it's official

but he reportedly has a deep bruise in his quadriceps. He’ll be out at the better part of the weekend I suppose, but he’s like Pujols and has a tendency to try to come back as soon as possible.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, rotobar says he will miss

3-4 games. We don’t play Monday, so he won’t play until Tuesday at the earliest.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow.

That will surely rob Yadi of some of his speed on the basepaths.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Sep 11, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Worst Injury I ever had was a deep bruise to the Quad

I went sledding in college and my leg hit a rock going down a hill. I tried to tough it out and played Snow Football. I couldn’t even walk for a week and couldn’t run for a month. I got physically sick from the amount of pain I was in. Driving a clutch about killed me.

by FlimtotheFlam on Sep 11, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha

my question is…do you think freese and rasmus arent up due to preference for vets or is it not wanting to start the clock on their MLB time? clearly i dont think anyone can really argue that they wouldnt be of value to the team currently

by FunkeeC on Sep 11, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With Rasmus it makes some sense to keep him down

to keep his clock from starting.

But with Freese, it really makes no sense. He’s got pressure from behind in Wallace and Craig and he is already 26 years old.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm in agreement.

At the beginning of the month, I was totally against bringing up these guys, but at this point it’s almost a no-brainer. What was once a drive to make the playoffs has now become a bit of a desperate situation. They’re actually running out of players. Starting the clock on Rasmus and Freese really hurts nothing and gets them some pretty good experience. Plus, if the team happens to overcome this deficit by some stroke of luck, they’ll make the playoffs.

I really don’t see an issue. The only one I would have a problem with is Anderson since I really think he’ll be spending a majority of his time at Memphis (or Alberquerque or Las Vegas or Omaha where ever they play AAA ball next year).

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i agree

the only thing i can come up with is having freese have his full MLB time ahead of him might make him a bit more valuable in trade scenarios this offseason.

by FunkeeC on Sep 11, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Freese

Isn’t on the 40 man. So someone would have to be removed from the 40 man. It would also cost $60,000 or so in salary. Which would be a bit much for just a few innnings. Though if Glaus is going to miss time than money shouldn’t be an issue.

by Evilfrog on Sep 11, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

any of duncan, mather and mulder

could be moved to the 60-day dl. That’s not an issue.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 11, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

err garcia, not mulder,

mulder is already 60-day.

Isringhausen, also.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 11, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Problem here is by the time Tony learns Lopez sucks at 3b and decides to bring up Freese

the season will be over…

Freese should be up now.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Sep 11, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I sure thought he had earned it.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 11, 2008 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We won't trade 'em, we won't play 'em

Why do we even have a farm system?

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Sep 11, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jill?

oh. sorry…..

Just kidding, Jill.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Leave me alone. I've been busy at work.

I almost never agree with Mr. Alxfritz about anything. But this time I do.

So, I’m an ingrate. I don’t care.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Sep 11, 2008 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was a joke.

If I knew you were this thin-skinned, I wouldn’t have typed it.

I apologize.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, gee. I'm not exactly thin-skinned.

It was supposed to be sarcastic. Please don’t apologize-I knew you were kidding. I haven’t been around much to defend myself or offend anyone…..I guess I’m out of practice.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Sep 11, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow

had me going.

just for that, I take back my apology!

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because, as Tony clearly pointed out

It’s nice to have these prospects, to say you have them and to talk about them to other organizations.

Or something like that.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that right there is one of my biggest problems with Tony

and i talked about it early this morning in last nights game thread, so i’ll keep it short here.

i think MO needs to take a stand with this team & become the clear leader of the organization. Tony is never going to change, he is who he is. he can’t help himself. if you give him washed up vets, he’s going to us them 100% of the time over younger, better players no matter what. if MO would simply cut the washed up vets from the team, call up the younger & better players to replace them, Tony would have no choice but to use them. MO can take charge & take the power out of Tonys hands that is clearly costing the team much needed victories.

for a variety of reasons MO won’t do this. but not a single one of them are the right reasons. if Tony can’t see that playing the younger & better players over the washed up vets is in the Cardinals best interests, then he isn’t the right man for the job. it’s that simple.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Sep 11, 2008 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah!

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Sep 11, 2008 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah.....

If you are insinuating that Lopez shouldn’t play 3rd, neither of his errors had anything to do with position. Not sure what he did on the bunt play, lack of concentration maybe, and the other play he just made a bad throw. Could have done that from SS or 2B too. He’s also made some pretty solid plays at 3B since joining the Redbirds. If you want to complain about him playing the OF, I won’t argue with you much. But he’s fine at 3B.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He shouldn't be playing 3B

if he plays 3B, that means Adam Kennedy’s playing time increases, which negatively impacts the team’s chances to win.

That’s just one reason he shouldn’t be playing 3B.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tonight I'd like to see

Barden at 3rd and Barton in left. Miles at 2nd. And I guess Iz2 at ss.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Harden is such a mystery

He’s a guy that can get himself out of a game in the 5th inning with pitch count, but he is also a guy that if you don’t hit the first strike you see, you have no chance down 2 strikes to him.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's why I'd go with defense

and try to get him out of the game after 5 or 6 innings. The cubs bullpen in vulnerable. Basically try to tread water with Harden and keep it close. Who knows? With Wellemeyer pitching, you might find yourself with Welley still in the game, you’re facing the cub bullpen and it’s 1-1 in the 7th inning.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You won't really need to try to get him out after 6

Lou is very careful with him, and probably moreso tonight since he’s missed a turn or 2 in the rotation.

by sdrone on Sep 11, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just don't understand it

vs LHP

Adam Kennedy: 268/.288/.296/.583
Aaron Miles: .306/.370/.361/.731

I mean, it’s not even close.

As I said, Adam Kennedy got some hits off of Ted Lilly 5 years ago when Adam Kennedy was actually a good player so he got the start.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lilly

vs. LHB .314, .392, .558, .950
vs. RHB .229, .287, .421, .708

It goes both ways…

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Isn't Miles

a switch hitter?

Anyway, I would have wanted Kennedy in over Miles with Looper on the mound anyway. Miles has been shaky defensively at 2nd compared to Kennedy this year. Plus we are already down a near gold glove at 3rd with Lopez in over Glaus. Throw in a ground ball hitter like Looper and well, I’d go with the more taleneted defensive two bagger. It’s not like either of them tear the cover off of the ball anyway. Of course, Tony could have just as easily put in Kennedy over Miles because one sep. 10th 5 years ago Miles struck out 3 times and kennedy hit 3 doubles…

by Evilfrog on Sep 11, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, Miles is a switch hitter

who hits right handed against Left handed pitching. I wouldn’t want him to turn around either since he hasn’t done it in a very long time.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no, he isn't "fine at 3B"

The last time he played more than one game in a season at 3B in MLB was 2004. He made 24 successful plays and 5 errors in 24 games.

A guy who makes an error one out of every 6 times a ball is hit to him is not “fine”.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 11, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he just needs practice.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

or he just isnt very good defensively

and since he really isnt very good at ss or 2b, id go with that

by FunkeeC on Sep 11, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Small sample size.

Isn’t that the argument most folks use around here?

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes it is a small sample size

but all of the data we have, every bit of it, says he is a terrible third baseman. Nothing indicates that “he’ll be fine” except as an emergency backup 3B.

Whereas we have a genuinely good defensive 3B – a 26yo with 3 options remaining – who just finished putting up a .900+ OPS in his first shot at AAA, and he is sitting at home watching Lopez piss games away on TV. This is at least two games now that Lopez’ defense has cost us.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 11, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really glad to see

that I’m not the only one appalled at Lopez’s sloppy play. That frickin’ guy has cost us several games with his awful defense. I, for one, am not a fan of Lopez.

And for the umteenth time…the fact that LaRussa puts someone in a particular position on the field is less likely to be related to that player’s ability to actually play the position and far more likely to be a result of “crazy Tony’s wild world of random pseudo-utility-man placement.” It’s like Dusty’s Dugout Dice, but Tony-style. He’s always done it, and will always continue to do it.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 11, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

was the other game at SS?

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...

He was at 2B when he almost singlehandedly gave the game to the Braves a couple weeks ago, including the controversial inning-ending routine grounder to second that he decided NOT to throw to first in time for the out.

My friend and I calculated that his astoundingly bad defensive plays resulted in somewhere between 4 and 7 additional Braves runs that day.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 11, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's the game I was thinking about

in looking it up, though, we were down 5-4 when he made the misplay, so he can’t really be blamed for the loss. Still, I’m annoyed by it.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 11, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except that...

(and my friend and I were AT that game) there were at least 2 other plays that any decent defensive second baseman with range and a good glove would have made handily…whereas the ball rolled under Lopez’s outstretched glove and into the outfield twice, allowing 3 or so other runs to score. If a merely competent second baseman had made even 1 of those other plays, we wouldn’t have been trailing when he made the additional infuriating “I’m gonna wait 5 seconds before I throw this ball to 1st” play.

He also seems to have a awfully high K rate, with 18 Ks (to 8 walks) in 83 ABs with us. At that rate, if he got 600 ABs a year, he’d be looking at 130 Ks in a season…a feat he’s been flirting with since 2005. That seems awfully high for a guy with 1 HR per 47 ABs during the same span.

But I’m sure I’ll be told I can’t really complain about his offense too much seeing as how he’s hit very well since coming to STL…but it sure makes a case for “small sample size” when his offensive “prowess” has suddenly appeared after sucking badly for, oh…his entire 8 year career with the one exception of 2005 in which he had an .838 OPS.

His other 7 years (including 2008 with the Nationals)?
2001 .722
2002 .673
2003 .612
2004 .719
2006 .739
2007 .659
2008 .619

Color me unimpressed.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 11, 2008 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hypocrite much?

Your words, below:

understand the damn metric, I just don’t put much stock in it when discussing how good or bad a defender is. I base my opinion on watching a player. You know, the way coaches have done for years and years?[/quote]

My friend and I were at the game. And I base my opinion on both years of Felipe Lopez metrics AND our direct observations. You know, the way smart baseball people have been doing it for years and years? Yet you can dismiss that with a vapid sarcastic comment and nothing…I mean NOTHING…to back it up?

You have zero credibility, and you bring NOTHING to these discussions.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Sep 11, 2008 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

HUH?

Please explain my hypocrisy?

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And btw.....

Since I know you’ve totally missed the point…..I wasn’t arguing with you about Lopez’s defense, as in good or bad. I was laughing at the runs he cost the team that day, as per your calculations. Must have been a very liberal calculation, that’s all I was saying.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because you just said

You know baseball by watching it.

They said they watched 4 to 7 runs score because of what they saw…because they, you know, “watch the game” and you blew them off. How do you know it didn’t cost 4 to 7 runs?

by Harknights on Sep 11, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

expand that argument

it’s not just 3rd base. Lopez hasn’t shown himself to be an average fielder at any position over the last few years.

by azruavatar on Sep 11, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

Not average?

I’m not saying he is great, but he is more than passable. And I have a feeling he is probably working ALOT with Oquendo before games. I read somewhere that the team is interested in an extension, or signing him this offseason, but they want to see some signs that he will work on his defense.

I just don’t get how some of you rate defenders. And don’t throw any defensive metrics at me, b/c that doesn’t doesn’t mean squat to me. Yadi is regarded as a defensive guru, yet he’s made alot of mistakes behind the dish this year. Lopez boots a couple of balls, and all the sudden he sucks at defense.

He is probably right at average, or just a little below right now, but he has the physical tools to be at least an average defender. Everybody wants to forget the great plays he’s made in the field, despite playing 5 positions in his short time with a new team.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Barf

To the last sentence of your first full paragraph

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Sep 11, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

You don’t like him as a potential starting 2B if his defense improves some? I’d almost guarantee he’ll match what our platoon of 2B have done this year offensively, and will probably top it. Plus, the kid still oozes with potential. He has some speed, is good on the bases, has the pop to hit 2nd in the lineup, or down around 7th. So long as we go get another SS, I’d be more than happy having him at 2B.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Potential starting 2B....maybe

But we all know if he’s back he won’t be tied down to 2B. The word extension scares me, maybe because it triggers something in my mind that thinks “multi-year.” I just don’t want him to be Pineiro v 2.0

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Sep 11, 2008 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He would be the Joel Pineiro of the infield

I think there are some people who are in love with his offensive potential, but that is likely a mirage. I can’t name a single player who has been able to sustain a BABIP anywhere near Lopez current .453 as a Cardinal. Albert is currently enjoying his best year in several and is BABIPing .348. Lopez career high BABIP is .350 in a year where he put up a .727 OPS.

I can’t think of a way to say this without being rude, so I will apologize in advance, but if you have actually watched Felipe Lopez play in the field and you think he is defensively average you just really don’t know much about baseball. I’m sorry, but he is bad to the eye and to the computer. He has a nice arm, but shockingly poor range for a guy who runs well and a poor glove as well.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 11, 2008 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really.

and this is the problem that you have. You refuse to accept objective measures of a player’s defense or offense if it doesn’t jive with your opinion. It’s not that I forget the great plays but I’m not willing to disregard the terrible ones as either. Let’s stick with Lopez since Yadi was never a part of the discussion – his defense is a separate issue. And as you mentioned earlier, the errors he made last night didn’t have to do with the position, so who cares if he’s played 5 different spots. I could play 5 different spots; that doesn’t mean I’d be good at them.

“And don’t throw any defensive metrics at me, b/c that doesn’t doesn’t mean squat to me.”

How arrogant can you be to completely disregard something because you don’t understand it. Lopez has not been a good defender for several years. Frankly, you can’t even offer a definition of ‘average’ or ‘passable’ without some kind of a metric. UZR, SFR and PMR all rated him as below average in recent years.

Please continue to blather on about how other people’s opinion’s aren’t valid when your counterargument is nothing more than your opinion. At least I have some factual evidence to back mine up.

by azruavatar on Sep 11, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Talk about arrogant.....

How arrogant can you be to completely disregard something because you don’t understand it.

You can cut that BS out right now. I understand the damn metric, I just don’t put much stock in it when discussing how good or bad a defender is. I base my opinion on watching a player. You know, the way coaches have done for years and years?

There isn’t a player in the majors that hasn’t booted an routine play this year. And all the sudden that means Lopez can’t play 3B? Please.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So what you are saying is

I’ll never let the facts stand in the way of an opinion.

Nice.

You will only “see” what you want to “see”

by Harknights on Sep 11, 2008 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like I said.....

Any stat that has Ryan Howard as a better defensive 1B than D-Lee, well, I don’t even have to say it.

Not saying they are worthless, just not the end all, and not something I put alot of weight in.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why?

D-Lee could be having a down year witht he glove…and Howard could be having a career year with the glove…at the very least you should ask why not just say it must be wrong.

by Harknights on Sep 11, 2008 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you had both players on your team

who would you want in the game playing defense in the bottom of the 9th with a 1 run game in game 7 of the world series?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In a vacuum Lee

But that doesn’t mean he was better this year.

If Chipper Jones wins the Batting title this year it doesn’t mean he’s the best hitter playing the game now. It means he had the highest batting average.

It also doesn’t mean he would be my first choice to bat with 2 out in the ninth vs Lidge.

by Harknights on Sep 11, 2008 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But what you are saying is

it doesn’t matter what the metric says, you’d still go with Lee, right?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because the career metric

says otherwise…but I should be alerted the possibility that Lee has an unseen problem.

by Harknights on Sep 11, 2008 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wait a minute....

So, now Lee has an unseen problem and we are agreeing that Howard is having a career year with the glove while Lee is having a down year. So, much so that the metric says Howard is the better defender yet you still choose Lee.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it says howard, delgado, lee and votto

are all about the same, and that pujols/berkman/tex are in a whole other league. It also says fielder, jacobs, etc are very bad, so everyone but lee is in the group I’d agree with.

Is it so hard to believe that Lee may have lost a step in his age 32 season? FWIW he’s made more errors this season than in any since 2002, so it very well might be true.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 11, 2008 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure I understand your point

The question is, if Howard ranks better than Lee and we are all agreeing there might be something going on with Lee that has caused him to play worse this year and Howard is having a very good year (by his standards) with the glove……why would you still choose Lee over Howard?

It’s really not that difficult of a question, but all I’ve gotten are excuses about why Lee might be ranked below Howard. If you choose Lee, why would you choose him over someone who is having a better year statistically?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, i was really addressing Sooner's post above

you re-framed the argument and I missed that. Intuitively I go with Lee, but that might be the wrong choice.

Lee is a smarter player; during one of the games against the dodgers, the phillies lost because Howard threw to the wrong base. RZR doesn’t tell the whole story, since because Howard got one out he was credited with the play, but Pujols turns a double play on that play 9 times out of 10 and Howard didn’t. Would lee? Who knows. But he’d have tried I think.

Also, things like picking ability aren’t captured by RZR, so lee might be the better choice for that reason alone.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 12, 2008 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So basically

It is your opinion vs. everyone else’s opinions (many of which are bolstered by independent metrics, which, oddly enough for you, were derived from people “watching” the players – the way coaches have done for years and years).

It boils down to this: your opinion is correct because it is founded on what you have seen. Everyone else’s opinions are wrong because they are in conflict with yours.

by Ray Lankford on Sep 11, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No I'm calling your crap out

It’s a load of crap that you come on here and tell people that ‘player A is good or bad because I watched him play some games’. How can anyone ever have a discussion with you when you won’t a) accept that anyone else’s opinion has validity if it doesn’t match yours or b) look at objective measures of a players ability.

Frankly, you’ve shown no knowledge of any advanced metric beyond it’s name as you say it’s worthless. This “watching the player” line is a bunch of crap too. You’re not the only one watching the bleeping games. Why is your visual (subjective) evaluation better than anyone else’s visual (subjective) evaluation. I never said that “all of the sudden Lopez can’t play 3B”. He hasn’t been able to play 3B for SEVERAL YEARS.

If you understand the metrics and disagree with them, try articulating why instead of saying they have no value. I’m not going to argue that any metric is perfect but three different techniques showed Lopez as a poor fielder. Swallow your pride and admit that maybe, just maybe, you could be wrong. Potential or not, raw ability or not, Lopez has not performed well defensively by a variety of evaluation techniques.

by azruavatar on Sep 11, 2008 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And all you need to know about ZR......

Is that the one I’m looking at, has Ryan Howard as the 4th best fielding 1B in the majors. Ahead of D-Lee.

It also has Yadi at about 5th or 6th at catcher.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And though they don't qualify.....

Duncan in LF was ahead of guys like Byrnes and Pierre, and heck, even Ethier.

So yea, that’s a great measurement.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pierre is not very good

I think it might be possible that Duncan would record more outs than Pierre with the same plays.

by Harknights on Sep 11, 2008 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yadi

probably is having his worst year defensively, but he is hitting so he will win the gold glove this year.

I mean when guys like Al and Dan are willing to say Yadi is struggling defensively this year then it must be true.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Sep 11, 2008 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lot of that is the middle infield

yadi has 5 or 6 throwing errors on balls that should have been part of a caught stealing.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 11, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if you think lopez has been passable

from watching him play, and are not willing to listen to defensive metrics, then I guess we’ll just have to disagree. I can’t stand the idea of a year of him at second base. I’d rather see eckstein at SS again than Lopez.

And most of those of us who are calling Lopez terrible at defense said the same thing about him when he was signed. I said the same thing in January when people were talking about acquiring him through trade. Last night was just “what happens” when you have a defensive liability like Lopez in the field.

"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar

by SleepyCA on Sep 11, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

none of his errors had anything to do with the position he was playing?

can you clarify what you mean?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Sep 11, 2008 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nevermind

i typed too soon

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Sep 11, 2008 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

anybody else

get the sneaking suspicion that next year’s club will look a lot like this one. i think from the FO point of view Izturis’ value lies in his defense so he’ll be back. everyone is falling in love with lopez so he’ll probably be back. we know miles is coming back. honestly the only changes i see are a new starter and a LH reliever.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Sep 11, 2008 2:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Honestly, I think we could easily contend if we can avoid a bunch of injuries

1b – Albert
2b – Lopez
ss – I want a new guy, hell even going young is better
3b – Glaus
OF: Ankiel, Lud, Rasmus, and throw in Mather/Skip/ etc.

If we had Carp, Wainwright, Welle, and a good new guy we’d be in pretty good shape.

by sdrone on Sep 11, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

it doesn’t really look that bad if we can avoid injuries. it’s way too early to say what next year will be like though. I’m with you on the throw a young guy into the fire at SS idea, especially if we re-sign Iztoo. if we don’t, perhaps we should give furcal a try. if we get Lowe too, I think we’re shaping up quite well. that and we’ll need to do something about the bullpen.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.....

Wholesale changes aren’t needed. I’d like a stud for the pen, or two very good guys, need to clear up the last two spots in the rotation, and I’d love to get a really good SS.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2009

Just by relying on Motte and Perez instead of Franklin and Izzy could gain the team 2 or 3 wins over the course of the season.

by Robb on Sep 11, 2008 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

at least

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but I'm betting Luddy comes back to earth a bit.

I hope I’m wrong, though.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Sep 11, 2008 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

Next year I bet you see about a .280 average, and a decrease in HR’s of about 5-10. Still be good, just not as good.

As for the pen, I really think you’ll see Perez and Motte struggle quite a bit next year too. We still need another good, experienced arm to take the pressure off of them. And that is in addition to Springer and K-Mac.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not too mention injuries

ank and lud are both pretty big injury concerns.

we really need to trade one of them and skip but color me skeptical that Mo will get it done. i’ve actually liked the job that Mo has done so far but i don’t think he has the experience when it comes to his trading prowess.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Sep 11, 2008 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If I used that word.....

I shouldn’t have.

I’m just advocating moving one of Ankiel/Ludwick, getting a good hitting SS, and using Lopez at 2B. Not wholesale, but more than just adding a SS.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why not trade Skip?

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 11, 2008 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am ok with a welly extension

however, since lowe is a type a, i am not ok with signing him…it was one thing to sign him at 36 to a potential 2 year 10mil+ a year deal when we had all of our draft picks…but to lose our first rounder, i just don’t think its worth it

resign looper…go with a rotation of carp(hopefully), waino, welly, looper, and piniero/boggs

leave mclellan in the bullpen, and sign some LHP relief help

then sign a legit MI

save that draft pick

by VolsnCards5 on Sep 11, 2008 3:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey,

if we let Loshe walk and sign Lowe, we cancel out that Type A problem.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Sep 11, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Loshe is a Type A

He may not be, the last prediction I saw had him as a Type B

by StLHugo on Sep 11, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know for myself, but

I saw on here a day or 2 ago that someone mentioned that he had achieved type A status. My question is this, though: Is he better than Lowe? If he is, then we can try to resign him. If not, then the draft compensation we would get would negate what we would give away.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Sep 11, 2008 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's not a Type A

the guy who cracked the Elias code had an error with his spread sheet for the NL starters. I think it had something to do with any pitcher who had over 9 wins (i.e., double digits), the formula wasn’t reading the first digit (i.e., 12 wins read as 2). So, when he corrected the glitch, Lohse fell out of Type A. However, Looper “benefited” by getting bumped up as a Type B FA.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lineups tonight.....

Discuss:

CARDINALS

Schumaker, cf
Miles, lf
Pujols, 1b
Ludwick, rf
Lopez, 3b
Kennedy, 2b
LaRue, c
Wellemeyer, p
Izturis, ss

CUBS

Soriano, lf
Theriot, ss
Lee, 1b
Ramirez, rf
De Rosa, rf
Fontenot, 2b
Soto, c
Johnson, cf
Harden, p

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 6:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That's a joke right

Miles in Left Field? He doesn’t even have a strong enough arm for 2B and that’s only 50 feet from where he has to throw.

The Emperor has no clothes!!!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see either LaRussa doesn't read VEB

or he doesn’t consider my lineup suggestion from earlier today as valid……….or both.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or he does read VEB and just wants to piss us off

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Sep 11, 2008 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ding ding ding

only you can stop the madness MO

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Sep 11, 2008 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

At lest the post called him out a bit

I really think they should really blast him for stuff like this. We are trying to win right?

by DriverZn on Sep 11, 2008 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Small ball?

Like having your light-hitting CF (vs LHP) bunt the runner over vs a LHP instead of allowing him to ground into a double play because ’he’s gotta learn to hit LHP sometime’?

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice to know 4 games back

we have given up. Miles in LF?!? Lopez at 3B?!?

by Harknights on Sep 11, 2008 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lefties, lefties and more lefties

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can hit left handed...why can't I play.

If we only had a Left hand hitting CF in our minor leagues. That would be helpful in the future. The organization should work on that.

by Harknights on Sep 11, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no room on the 40 man

and we don’t want to start your arbitration clock…..plus, you haven’t earned it.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey I'm going to be a minor league free agent

so the clock shouldn’t matter. ;-)

and earned it?!? I interned at the grit factory. I can massproduce grit.

by Harknights on Sep 11, 2008 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't get the no room on the 40 man roster

Duncan can be moved to the 60 day DL. Someone said that it would fill up the 40 man for next year. Problem with that argument is that Mark Mulder, Juan Encarnacion, Jason Isringhausen, Randy Flores, Ron Villone, Kyle Lohse, Braden Looper, Cesar Izturis, Adam Kennedy, Josh Phelps, Jason LaRue and Felipe Lopez will all come off the 40 man next year. That’s 12 guys.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then it's simple

he hasn’t earned it.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who knows......

At this point, it may just be that they’ve already sent him home. OF didn’t seem like a problem 10 days ago.

Against righties we’re going to see Skip, Ludwick, and something else.

Against lefties we’ll likely see Barton, Ludwick, and Skip/Stav/Phelps.

Gotta play the hand your dealt. Playoff-like baseball isn’t the time to throw your slow starting, coming off an injury, minor league into the fire.

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but Harknights isn't a slow starter or coming off an injury.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh.....

He’s just in the doghouse. ;)

by SoonerfanTU on Sep 11, 2008 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess Memphis will be happy

They obviously will have Rasmus, Barden and Freese back next year. Probably Boggs too. What more does Barden or Freese need to do to get a shot? I really don’t understand why one of them is not starting at 3b. Barden at least got the callup, but isn’t playing.

by OCCardsFan on Sep 11, 2008 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But the difference between LHB and RHB vs Harden

is so statically insignificant that wouldn’t it behoove us to field a better lineup, handedness be damned?

When Tony said he trusted Miles to play CF, he was not kidding.

Atleast I’ll get to see Harden pitch a perfect game. That’s something.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 11, 2008 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not defending it

I’m simply explaining it.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Sep 11, 2008 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lineup like this one and last night's

are the reason I am giving up on worrying about us making the playoffs and just try to enjoy a game. When we could have a much better defensive lineup than both of these last two game (and many more before it), but we don’t just because….I have no idea why.

It is like field and upper management have both given up on this season.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Sep 11, 2008 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow....

that has to be the weakest line up we have put out all season

by riotmute on Sep 11, 2008 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs