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thursday miscellany

ahhhhhh . . . . . relief. joe strauss described la russa as "ecstatic" over chris perez’s performance last night. reyes perez became the 7th cardinal pitcher to record a save this year; you never know, he might be the only going forward. la russa --- like most managers --- rarely uses a rookie in the closer’s role, but as we saw in 2006 he will break that rule when circumstances warrant. and they clearly do warrant --- any pitcher, rookie or no, who restores order to the 9th inning is going to keep getting the opportunities.

i’m hoping perez will be that guy ---- even if he has his ups and downs, which he probably will. don’t forget, 10 of the first 100 batters to face him in the big leagues got extra-base hits off the kid, and just two weeks ago, he blew a 5-run 9th-inning lead at memphis. he still loses the strike zone periodically, and he may be prone to the longball. . . . . . but so what. he has more ability than the diminished isringhausen, and more than franklin ever possessed. he gives the team its best shot to hold a late lead, ergo he should get the opportunities --- even if he occasionally blows one, as he almost certainly will. and he upholds the build-from-within philosophy the cardinals are trying to instill. is he as sure a bet as brian fuentes would have been? no, not quite; he’s a riskier bet. but there’s a decent chance that he’ll be as good as fuentes would have been, and an excellent chance that he’ll be nearly as good. the difference between fuentes and him clearly isn’t worth the price in talent the rockies were demanding. . . .

if you’re wondering, the franchise record for saves by a first-year player is 9, set by john littlefield in 1980. i say "first-year player" rather than "rookie" because todd worrell still qualified as a rookie when he saved 36 games in 1986. but in 1985, the year he first reached the majors, worrell only picked up 5 saves, plus another 1 or 2 in the playoffs. . . . . if perez breaks that record (and yeah, i’m getting way ahead of myself), the cardinals stand a great chance to go to the playoffs.

[update] the post is reporting this a.m. that wainwright's rehab will prep him to pitch as a reliever when he returns, but i think he's a fallback. mozeliak hints that there might be another solution for the 9th inning (ie perez) by the time wainwright is ready to return . . . .  [end update]

you might have read in the RFT (or seen it on WGN) where wilco sang "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" last weekend from the press box at wrigley --- clad in cubs jerseys, no less. in the ensuing interview, jeff tweedy admitted that, yeah, he grew up down in belleville across the river from . . . . er, uh, you know, st. louis . . . .  as a cardinal fan. i'm told that a couple nights later, a cardinal employee showed up at the wilco gig in indianapolis with a birds-on-bat jersey personalized for tweedy (#1 on the back), a baseball with a personal inscription from TLR, and a bunch of swag for tweedy's kids. star-spangled banner at the all-star game next year, fellahs? . . . .

other matters:

  • did pineiro save his spot in the rotation last night? well, he gave up 5 extra-base hits in 7 innings, including 2 to angel berroa, a player who is slugging under .300. . . . it was the 3rd consecutive start in which he’s yielded at least 5 extra-base hits. pineiro has now made 19 starts; batters slugged .423 against him in the first 10 (ie, through june 17) but.574 in the last 9. the corresponding eras are 4.02 and 6.09. . . . . the cards will still need a 5th starter for another couple of turns, and i don’t know that they have anybody better than pineiro to turn to; well, jaime garcia might be a better option, but it seems as if they’re committed to using him out of the pen. beginning on august 17 the team will only need a #5 starter 4 more times over the rest of the schedule. wainwright will probably be back by then; doesn’t it make sense to close out the sched with a 4-man rotation of carpenter / wainwright / lohse / wellemeyer? that is being discussed by the decision-makers; i don’t know what’s left to discuss. just do it, guys.
  • inside stl had an interview with #1 draftee brett wallace recently, if'n you haven't seen it.
  • jason bay has a .423 / .500 / .692 line in 6 games since the trade deadline, with a homer and 6 rbis; manny ramirez, in 5 games, is hitting .600 and slugging 1.100, with 3 dingers and 7 rbis. ryan ludwick in the same span: .500 batting average, 1.500 slugging with 6 homers, including a walkoff. just sayin’ . . . .
  • ludwick and pujols currently rank 1-2 in nl slugging, by the way.
  • as a team, they now rank 3d in the league in scoring --- first time all season they have ranked that high. they’re on pace to score 777 runs, which would be an increase of 52 runs over last year.
  • here’s something you’ll never believe: cardinal second basemen, as a group, are batting .300 on the year ---- that’s #1 among national league teams. but they are near the bottom in both walks and isolated power, which drops them to the middle of the pack in ops, at .721. that’s still a vast improvement over last year, when st louis 2bmen ranked 14th in the league. you could say the same for the catchers, who were dead last in 2007 but are 7th this year with a .723 ops.
  • st louis outfielders, as a group, are the best in the league with an .862 aggregate ops. they rank first in homers, 2nd in slugging and obp. their 66 homers so far this year are just 2 shy of last year’s full-season total.
  • the pitchers aren’t hitting quite as well this year; they ranked first in cumulative ops in both 2006 and 2007 but are only second this year, behind the cubs.

sorry, gotta keep it short this morning. game thread will be up at about noon.

0 recs | Comment 339 comments

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Was this a Freudian slip?

“reyes became the 7th cardinal pitcher to record a save this year; you never know, he might be the only going forward.”

Just checking…..

by goodymobb on Aug 7, 2008 8:43 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

eeek

i guess so . . . . better change it.

by lboros on Aug 7, 2008 8:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was gonna check the same thing

Gave me a mini-laugh for reasons I’m not sure are even clear to myself.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 8:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

speaking of ARey...

I didn’t see on here this weekend (though I seldom read the weekend threads) but Anthony had a stellar outing for Cleveland’s AAA club Saturday.

8IP – 1ER, 5H, 0BB, 4K

I’m still rooting for him to become a legitimate #2 or 3 in the bigs. Probably because it would affirm and opinion that myself and others around here hang on to that he was screwed by this org.

by cardzfanbub on Aug 7, 2008 10:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

.....I hope not......

I like him and all but I dont want another Haren around baseball…........

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 10:02 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This would be a bit different that Haren...

in some ways worse. At least Mulder had been one of the best pitchers in the league before the trade, ARey went out for an older AA player. Of course we weren’t likely to be able to keep ARey after next spring (no options, and probably no place on the roster) and he had pretty well lost ALL value in a trade. I don’t think he’ll ever be as good as Haren, but I do hope he has a long successful career.

by cardzfanbub on Aug 7, 2008 10:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree it would be worse...

But I really hope he is not a #2 or #3 starter…...... I am rooting for him to be a #4 or #5 starter and if he does that I will be happy for him, just dont do any better than that!

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 10:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Reyes

called up last night after the Indians game. Looks like he’ll jump right into the rotation.

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Aug 7, 2008 11:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This will be interesting.

I can’t wait to see what he does being Duncan free now. Will he let it rip and finally become the pitcher we all hoped he would?

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 11:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Are they still going to use Wainwright in relief? I hope they change directions again and put him back in the rotation. I don’t like this bullpen talk.

by azruavatar on Aug 7, 2008 8:54 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sigh

I can’t sigh loud enough to fully expressed my exasperation at this silly decision.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 8:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i missed the article ---- updated my post

i agree w/ you guys, using wainwright in relief seems like a bad use of resources. i’d rather seem them take their chances w/ perez and mcclellan and live w/ the consequences, good or bad.

by lboros on Aug 7, 2008 9:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They haven't made a decision

No matter what the PD says. Remember, this time last week they were saying, for no good reason at all, that Jason Isringhausen was now “the closer” again. He’d done nothing to show that he’d improved enough to warrant that spot; he almost immediately reverted to bad form. And now he may not pitch again this season. But whatever—he was “the closer.”

LaRussa, Duncan, and Mo are making this whole thing up as they go along.

by Dr Tom More on Aug 7, 2008 9:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You say that like it's a BAD thing.

They should be making it up as they go. Changing circumstances result in changing approaches, as they should.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 7, 2008 9:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe unclear

What I’m saying is a “bad thing” is the nonsense of annointing someone “the closer.” Since I’m one who doesn’t necessarily believe that pitching the ninth inning is necessarily any more difficult than pitching say, the sixth or seventh (or first, or third), the entire idea is suspect to me (and lots of others).

But, on a team managed by the man who essentially invented “the closer,” a mentality trickles down through the bullpen that “everyone has to have a role,” rather than just going out there and trying to get people out. See Franklin, for example, who said, after the reannointing of Isringhausen last week, something to the effect of “I knew it was always Jason’s job” (I’m too lazy to look up the exact quote).

I agree that changing circumstaces should result in changing approaches—which means that they shouldn’t be talking about Wainwright coming back as a reliever when they don’t have all the data necessary to make that kind of a decision, based on the circumstances. It’s arbitrary.

by Dr Tom More on Aug 7, 2008 11:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But

I’ve heard a lot of people also say that pitchers like having a certain role.

by saladdays on Aug 7, 2008 11:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Their role

is to get people out. Whenever the ball is in their hands. Anything else is something they shouldn’t be worried about.

by Dr Tom More on Aug 7, 2008 2:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Perhaps if Perez has a good week...

or two they can put this to rest. I can see why the team would consider this, as there’ no doubt with a better bullpen we’d have 5-10 more wins (see 20+ blown saves).

by cardzfanbub on Aug 7, 2008 9:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm hoping the same

Maybe Perez will come in and be solid for a week or two as the closer and let Waino shift back to the rotation. A.D.A.M. needs to be pitching in the rotation down the stretch run.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 9:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly ...

our only shot to get to the playoffs (and win when we get there) is for Carp, Wainwright, and Lohse to basically win most of their remaining starts and then win in the playoffs. Putting Wainwright in the bullpen is shortsighted. Even if he provides clarity to the closer’s role, we are much more likely to be in a position to lose more games with Piniero starting and much more likely to miss the playoffs entirely.

Wainwright is a top flight starter in this league. The team should not screw with that.

by Egyptian on Aug 7, 2008 9:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you guys are right about him being a starter

but maybe since they are putting him on the “fast-track” to get him back pitching again, they are putting him into a situation where he won’t have to work as much. which begs the question, why not let him heal all the way before letting him pitch?

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 7, 2008 1:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Perez had 5 outs on 21 pitches

Gotta like that. Given TLR’s comments last nigth, maybe they’d put Wainer back in the rotation.

And they, maybe Wainwright in the pen is just to warm him up. HE’ll get 3 appearances then move to the rotation.

Youneverknow.

by sdrone on Aug 7, 2008 9:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can live with either use of Wagonmaker,

as long as it is a solution to a real problem, and not stubbornness. IOW, if another guy (Perez) nails down the closer duties I want to see TLR be flexible enough to move Adam back to the rotation.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 7, 2008 9:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The meeting

My guess is that Mo, TLR, and Dunc decided to call up Perez for a tryout at closer while preparing Wainwright for the role in case Perez can’t handle it. If Perez steps up during his opportunity, he’s the closer and Wainwright returns to the rotation. If he doesn’t, they’ll install Wainwright.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 9:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That’s how I read it, too. Keep on keepin’ on, Perez!

by liam on Aug 7, 2008 9:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not as many

More wins as you’d think.

If the Cards were league-average at blowing saves, they’d have four more wins. They’re 11-14 in games where they blew the save, with two games having multiple saves blown. League average would be seven less blown, but the Cards would have been 3-7 in them, based on their win percentage so far.

Still substantial in this race, but not ridiculous like people think.

by whopperman on Aug 7, 2008 3:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Perez or bust!!!!!!!!

Wain would make our Bullpen much much better but at what cost? He is much more valuable as a starter. I would be ecstatic to have a rotation of Carp, Wain, Lohse in the playoffs! without him our rotation is much weaker. Please dont put him in the bullpen!!!

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 9:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Isn't Wainwright going to just get more important

With him possibly taking the ball every 4 days instead of 5 days down the stretch. I am still for the idea to put Joel on waivers and just let him float away

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 7, 2008 10:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep

the idea of a 4-man rotation increases Wainwright’s value in it and makes it an even bigger waste of resources to have him in the pen. I realize the pen has problems but if Perez can steady the pen a little - he doesn’t have to be lights out every time, that would be unreasonable. But w/ Perez, McClellan, and Springer - that’s a pertty good top 3. It’s not the Nasty Boys, but it’s not bad either. Villone and Garcia from the left side, plus Franklin in long relief. 1 steady guy at the back end + an extra inning out of our starters w/ Carp and Wainwright back makes that staff a LOT better, not a little better…A LOT BETTER!

by chuckb on Aug 7, 2008 10:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 10:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When Wainwright

comes back will he need to strengthen his arm ala Carpenter. For instance, if Adam can only go 60 pitches in his first start, 70 in his second, and another limited pitch count in his third start wont this compromise an already over utilized and under staffed bullpen? Im not sure where I stand so dont jump on me just yet.

by njnick on Aug 7, 2008 10:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He didnt have Arm or Elbow Surgery

I don’t see that he has to build up that much strength

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 7, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True

but he hasnt pitched a real game since June 7th. Wont that inactivity cause him to have to strengthen his arm?

by njnick on Aug 7, 2008 10:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's been throwing fastballs for a while now

His arm strength isn’t a concern, as he’s been throwing extended sessions of fastballs for quite a while now. The breaking balls are a recent development, but his arm strength is likely at a pretty advanced stage for someone coming off a DL stint this long.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 11:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He was doing arm-strengthening work

all along, even though he couldn’t throw. The articles on this weren’t specific, but I’m assuming isometric exercises, weightlifting or electrical muscle stimulation were involved.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 7, 2008 11:22 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He will still be gettting norman rest.

He won’t be getting the ball every 4 days. They will use off-days to get them their normal rest.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 7, 2008 10:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Norman rest?

Is that like what Mulder’s getting—playing golf twice a day. :)

by Red in Chicago on Aug 7, 2008 11:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

'Doh!

Well, I’m attributing Viking-like qualities to Wainright.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 7, 2008 11:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Glaus = anagram for Gauls

i made a joke yesterday about germanic tribes that segued into a running joke about teams named after geometric figures and concepts… i just wanted to say i love how nerdy/geeky the humor can get at this blog. sites like VEB also crush the stereotype that the world is divided between jocks and nerds. this is essentially sport-nerd-dom.

by mattybobo on Aug 7, 2008 11:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Of course it is

I’m 45 and live in my parents’ basement, don’t you?

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 7, 2008 11:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your parents have a basement?

Lucky dog!

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 7, 2008 12:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not anymore

Parents kicked me out so now I’m living in my car. I’m in the parking lot of a hotel just to steal their Wi-Fi to get on VEB. So sad. On the bright side it’s a Holiday Inn and they have a link to free gameday audio on the home page. Maybe I’ll stick around for the game if they don’t call the law first.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Aug 7, 2008 12:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am challenging the whole jocks and nerds concept!

because there is such a thing as a nerdy jock and I am one of them!!!!
I am a guy who can deadlift 330lbs and then go watch Lord of the Rings! or Star Wars!!!!

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 12:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

see, yet another example

a person who is not especially jocky (like me—though i was a kickass pingpong player in college) can be totally geeky about sports, allegedly the territory of jocks. further, a person who is an athlete can be a total nerd, like brian barton.

by mattybobo on Aug 7, 2008 12:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL

Being a great pingpong player is the farthest thing from being a jock lol…....

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 1:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh. well that's about all i got!

it’s tough to find a level playing field when genetics dooms you to top out at about 5’6”, 140 lbs. does dance dance revolution count? cause i’m pretty good at that. oh, and wii sports baseball.

by mattybobo on Aug 7, 2008 2:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

jocks and nerds

that’s one reason why I’m a metalhead: you have to be both smart and athletic to play a lot of that stuff (especially the drummers and guitarists)

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 7, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

up the irons

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Aug 7, 2008 1:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

defying stereotypes is one of my favorite things to do

as a blonde/sorority girl/volleyball player/engineer who probably knows more about sports than most guys in my office, i LOVE the reactions i get when people ask me what i do for a living and i can throw out there that i am a mechanical engineer or when i spout out some random baseball statistic in normal conversation. soooo much fun. here’s to nerd-jocks! :)

by launchshuttle on Aug 7, 2008 1:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 1:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not to stereotype

but baseball is a sport that tends to attract the more, shall we say, intellectual crowd?

by cardgirl on Aug 7, 2008 2:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

gauls

Way OT but … Gauls weren’t german. The roman term “gauls” referred to a people of gaelic descent (scots / irish). At one time they controlled much of modern day France and northern Italy. For a modern day version of what the Romans called a Gaul, look at Mario Batali (Italian dude who looks like he just got off the boat from Ireland).
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/resources/2006/08/moltomolto.jpg

by jjray on Aug 7, 2008 12:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I believe Germans would have been Goths, correct?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 7, 2008 12:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oh, don't worry, i'm aware

i was just thinking of other ancient peoples. what’s the difference celts and gauls again? i’m always fuzzy on that.

by mattybobo on Aug 7, 2008 1:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

someone might want to correct me on this if I'm wrong

Just did a little research. Gaul was the name given by the romans to a region. Basically the west side of Europe (Spain, France, northern Italy, and Britain) and Gauls were any barbarian from that area. The Celts were a specific tribe located on the British isles. The Romans liked to lump large groups together. Especially when they weren’t civilized people (Romans Greeks)

New Member of the Skip Schumaker Fan Club

by cyko42 on Aug 7, 2008 1:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You have it backwards

Celts are a linguistic/cultural designation, Gauls were a subgroup that lived in France until the Romans kicked their tails, and later the Germans swept through, setting off a tradition of French surrender that lasts to today. Joking, joking…

by liam on Aug 7, 2008 1:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sacre bleu!!

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 7, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

richilieu

i will always think of him as being as badass as he was in the three muskateers novels.

by mattybobo on Aug 7, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Scarlet Pimpernel kicked the crap out of the French!

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 1:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

add in marechal foch and geoffrey joffre as well

How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor

by themanthemyth on Aug 7, 2008 1:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Napoleon was a Corsican or something

but all the rest of those dudes were Franks, which is a Germanic tribe. The Celts were Indo-Europeans spread from modern day Turkey all the way to Spain. Celts were fair-haired people who were very tall, had long hair encrusted with lime and liked to go into battle naked. Think Dirk Novitski with a bronze sword.

The Franks displaced/assimilated the Gaulish Celts. The Gauls never surrendered and one of the reasons they disappeared from large parts of western Europe was because Marius and Julius Ceasar annihilated 100,000s of them and sold many of the rest into slavery.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 7, 2008 10:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

upon further review

you are correct. I’ll just go with the Roman way, There all Barbarians and only fit to fight our wars for us…......

New Member of the Skip Schumaker Fan Club

by cyko42 on Aug 7, 2008 1:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

in today's nerd spirit

I offer this

1.) The Gaels are a different subset of Celt than the Gauls.  Calling a Gaul Gaelic because both groups are Celtic is like calling an Englishman Italian because both are European.

2.) Though in early classical times Italy north of the Po was known as “Cisalpine Gaul,” modern northern Italians probably owe more genetically to Germanic peoples such as the Ostrogoths and Lombards who arrived there subsequently than to the ancient Celtic inhabitants.

3.) To hell w/ Mario Batali. I’d rather talk about Jason Simontacchi! Last I heard he was pitching for Dave “Snacks” LaPoint w/ the Long Island Ducks, but I’ve lost track of him this year. Anyone know if he’s hung them up?

by random on Aug 7, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gotta watch those parens

meant to say Gaels & Gauls to Celts as Italians and Spaniards are to Europeans. I think liam said what REALLY needed to be said, though :-D

by random on Aug 7, 2008 1:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which is the case?

If Waino goes into the rotation, who is the odd man out? Pineiro, right? But he’s not really bullpen stuff, is he?

So if you want to improve the bull pen, your options are ADAM or Looper. So I think this is the relevant question:

Do you get a greater marginal improvement by starting ADAM over Jo-el, or by closing with ADAM rather than Looper?

If Perez works out, you could kick Looper into the bullpen as our 8th inning guy. That was his original purpose after all. This is probably my preference. The problem is that I think having Wainwright as the closer probably gives us our best chance of making the playoffs, but not our best chance of winning once we’re in the playoffs.

So it’s a legitimate problem for me.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Aug 7, 2008 10:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i still really don't like waino in relief

he is too valuable to the starting rotation and he seems like a waste in the bullpen

however i guess this depends really on how perez does

by cardsrule15 on Aug 7, 2008 10:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

don't forget

although wainwright got saves he was at times shaky

by cardsrule15 on Aug 7, 2008 10:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What about Welley?

Welley has prototypical closer stuff (95+ and a plus slider). Also, he’s building toward a workload that’s unprecedented in his professional career and I’m a little concerned about his arm. I think if you have to bump someone into the pen to close, it’s Welley. That said, I’d rather keep him in the rotation and I’d only do that if the Perez experiment fails and we find ourselves without a closer. I wouldn’t bump Welley to have him pitching middle relief.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 11:22 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Welley is the man, even if it is the 8th inning

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 7, 2008 11:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Springer, KMac, the Colonel, and Perez

for 7th, 8th, 9th inning. All of a sudden, I’m liking our bullpen

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Aug 7, 2008 12:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

After just one game...

I’m not ready to either breathe a sigh of relief(no pun intended) or knight Perez as the second coming of Mariano Rivera. The bullpen is still a steaming pile of cow dung, and nothing short of a miracle is going to solve the problem.

by cardsrul on Aug 7, 2008 1:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Perez =/= Mariano

He doesn’t need to be Mariano. He just needs to convert some saves. He doesn’t need to be perfect. He doesn’t need to be elite. We just need someone passable so that we don’t have to keep running Izzy/Franklin out there, who together seemingly can’t hold even a 3-4 run lead in the 9th.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 1:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I take it you didn't see this article in the Post this morning.

Looks like Wainwright is gonna be the closer.

And this is a huge mistake. Taking a talented young starter and sticking him back in the closers role is a mis-allocation of resources. Wainwright was shaky in the reliever role back in 2006.

I would much rather see this team go down in flames testing the metal of young players like Perez, Motte and Worrell than messing with the young top of the rotation starter they just signed to a long term deal.

by JMedwick on Aug 7, 2008 8:54 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I should be more specific here.

Shaky as the closer in the post season. He was darn good as a righty reliever for much of the season.

by JMedwick on Aug 7, 2008 8:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What are you talking about?

Wainwright was a good closer in the 06 post season….........

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 10:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Not sure what he’s talking about there

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 7, 2008 10:06 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know

I was thinking to myself did he even watch the 06 playoffs?????/

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 10:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if izzy had loaded the bases in the 9th vs the mets

in game 7, the way that wainwright did, people would have screamed bloody murder. likewise, in game 5 of the w.s. vs the tigers, he allowed the tying run to come to the plate in the 9th.

he converted all his save opportunities, but he was far from unhittable. he was a lot like izzy — a lot of nail-biter saves.

by lboros on Aug 7, 2008 10:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who cares?

He got every save and that is all that matters.

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 10:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jmedwick descrbed wainwright as "shaky"

as the closer in 2006, and i think that adjective was fair — adam was shaky. yes he got the saves, but he was vulnerable as the closer.

by lboros on Aug 7, 2008 10:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not to be nitpicky

Wainwright was shaky as the closer, good shaky though.
As for JMedwicks statement that he was “shaky in the reliever role” -you can argue he was shaky as the closer, but wasn’t he just nails in the coffin great in the set-up role? At least that is how I remember him being, He started out as the 7th inning guy, right? He seemed to be lights out in that role and it carried on into the set-up role. I might be remembering incorrectly, it would not be the first time.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Aug 7, 2008 5:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he did blow 1 save

by giving up a sac fly to the first batter he faced. I forget which series it was in but I think the Cards ended up winning the game anyway. I’m sure he did blow 1 save in the postseason, though—or was credited w/ a blown save when the reliever who let the guy get to third probably should have been.

by chuckb on Aug 7, 2008 10:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While I would rather have Adam as a starter

we do have to remember he was basically a rookie during the 06 playoffs. He is a much more seasoned pitcher now, so he might not be as “shakey” as he was for some of those October games. He should be more comfortable now as compaired to then…

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 10:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think he'd be shaky at all

out of the pen or for 7 or 8 innings starting the game. Perez might be a little shaky but he’ll convert more than Izzy or Franklin and, I think, we’ll be just fine—provided the fan base can stomach his blowing a couple down the stretch. If they’re hoping for perfection, they won’t get it.

by chuckb on Aug 7, 2008 10:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m hoping for perfection. I’ll take “good.” D.GOOCH

-- GOOCH

by GOOCH24 on Aug 7, 2008 1:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I still watch NLCS Game 7 all the time

Sometimes just the highlights but it always brings back the memories of me curled in a ball of fear. With my rosemary clutched in my fist praying to god we can somehow get out of this.

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 7, 2008 10:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rosemary or rosary?

I can’t tell if that’s a typo or just plain pagan . ..

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Aug 7, 2008 10:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe his girlfriend's name is Rosemary.

and he will be clutching her.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 7, 2008 10:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe

she is wearing a rosary?

by saladdays on Aug 7, 2008 11:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agreed; the emotions of that moment make it the best of the post-season, in my opinion

as great as the yadi homerun was, it came seeming out of nowhere, and was just a wonderful surprise. wagonmaker’s k to end the game after loading the bases, sending us that instant, in game seven, from possibly losing the whole thing on a walk-off to the feared cardinal-killer beltran to the world series after being written off from the start… i’m getting all tingly thinking about it. i’ll stop though, because i’ll bet nobody in this blog wants to hear about me feeling tingly…

by mattybobo on Aug 7, 2008 10:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

all of this is kind of ironic (maybe? hope i'm using ironic correctly)

because of course it depends on the fact that wainwright wasn’t exactly lights out. i think the moment was better because of the risk.

by mattybobo on Aug 7, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I remember that moment...

I was watching the game at my college house in the basement on the 90” projector screen with about 10 friends. I just couldn’t want to hear how it ended, and I knew that the digital cable was a few seconds behind, so I grabbed my tiny radio and listened in the back of the room. I heard the third called strike, and then I ran forward to watch it on the screen. It was neat because I got to listen to Shannon’s call, and I got to see it real-time on TV. What an amazing moment in Cardinals history. I remember Izzy joking after the game that he showed Wainwright how to make it that dramatic.

"I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order. Like they should be."

by BigMOman on Aug 7, 2008 11:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought it was over

When Rolen somehow drove a ball hard only to get robbed by Endy Chavez. I was fully prepared for that to be a major “if only” moment in Cardinals history.

I don’t think I could ever get mad at Yadi after that homerun…

by Yellow Dog on Aug 7, 2008 2:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

mettle*

[/grammar nazi]

Though I kind of liked something about the ideal of testing someone’s metal. Makes them sound like robots.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 9:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well you could test Luddy's

metal, ‘cause he’s got some pins and screws in his body.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 7, 2008 9:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I of course thought that

testing one’s metal was to see how metal they are (as in heavy metal)

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 7, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ah, it's just positioning to take pressure off Perez

It’s not as rock solid as the headline. Read this:

“It’s not set. There’s a chance before he comes back that we have a solution and it’s not a need. Then he’ll come back as a starter. We want to be prepared. Right now, everything is on the table.”

In other words, if Perez does the job then Adam’s a starter. This is a smart way to do it, imo. Takes pressure off Perez to save the season. And if Perez does implode, don’t you want WW over Iz or Frank?

I think this is perfect. What’s the problem?

by meat on Aug 7, 2008 10:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

I don’t want Waino in the pen at all, but I think it makes sense to at least let Perez try it.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 11:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What are the chance WW...

pitches in Springfield next week? Anybody have any idea? I’d like to try to make it to see him.

by cardzfanbub on Aug 7, 2008 10:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i doubt any

i would love to go see it too but he is supposed to be at memphis friday so it is unlikely that he will go backwards.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 10:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was thinking the same...

hoping maybe Memphis had a road trip the Cards wouldn’t want to send WW out on. While Memphis will be playing New Orleans and Round Rock (Texas) next week, it will (unfortunately for me) be at Memphis.

by cardzfanbub on Aug 7, 2008 11:06 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Really good article on Albert being underrated...

(something we all know here) at Joe Posnanski’s blog:

by nmstar on Aug 7, 2008 9:01 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't necessarily disagree with the results

1. Pitching wins. Period. So I’d expect great young pitchers to be higher than Albert.
2. Albert is a first baseman. There are quite a few power hitting first basemen POwer hitting shortstops and 2nd basemen are rare these days.

by sdrone on Aug 7, 2008 9:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Power-hitting 2B and SS

Not quite so rare as they used to be

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 7, 2008 10:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah but

Albert doesn’t necessarily have to play 1B

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 7, 2008 1:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What hurts Albert is that he plays for a team that the media ignores.

If Albert played for either of the New York teams, Boston or even the Cubs he would be right there with Michael Jordan as one of the most popular and legendary sports figures of the modern era. If Al was with the Yankees they would be calling the new Yankee stadium “The house that Albert built.”
I just thank God he is with us.

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 9:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Same with Musial

He’s vastly underrated and is probably the greatest living baseball player on earth.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 9:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow.

Mays? Aaron? I mean, I love Stan Musial, but I never heard of him having anything but a noodle arm (after his injury when he was a pitcher) or being anything notable defensively. And I doubt his batting quite stacks up to those guys, either.

Jesus, I’m not knocking Musial. I fervently hope he is healthy enough to be part of the all-star festivities a year from now and to receive the tribute he richly deserves.

by Youneverknow on Aug 7, 2008 10:23 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OPS+

Musial 159
Mays 156
Aaron 155

Because of defense i would put Mays just ahead of Musial but it was closer than you thought, huh? Plus Musial missed a year due to the war and he hit .345/.440/.549 the year before and .365/.434/.567 the year after. Mays also missed a year early in his career before he became the GREAT player he was.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 10:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You are right.

It is closer than I thought. And there are places Musial definitely has the edge. Stan the Man.

by Youneverknow on Aug 7, 2008 10:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Musial was a better hitter

Musial career line: .331/ .417/ .559/ 3,630 hits/ 475 HR
Mays career line: .302/ .384/ .557/ 3283 hits/ 660 HR
Aaron career line: .305/ .374/ .555/ 3,771 hits/ 755 HR

Musial missed a year because of WW II and would have hit over 500 homers but for that.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 10:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well

I saw Mays, Aaron and Musial play many times. Musial was better by far. Nobody in the 50’s considered either Mays or Aaron in the class of Musial and NO, Musial never had a “noodle for an arm. Don’t know where you heard such shit. Musial was an all around great ballplayer defensively and offensively though not on par defensively with Mays, naturally but otherwise superior. Even today, Mays or Aaron would laugh at their comparison..they are both that kind honest good people.

by ridgesee on Aug 7, 2008 10:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While we're on Musial

Why don’t the Cardinals sell throwback Musial jersey t-shirts in off-white? I can get any Yankee great I want at the Stadium, but St. Louis Fan Store doesn’t even have Ozzie, Gibson, Sutter, Dean, or Musial jersey t-shirts. This must change.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 10:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

billion

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 10:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would kill to have a Gibson or Musial jersey

Does anyone know anything about memorabilia prices?
Because I know a store that has a little stand with a musial baseball card and signed ball for 75 bucks and I was wondering if that was overpriced?

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 12:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

throwbacks

are generally more expensive than their current counterparts. check ebay … you can get some good deals there. I got a throwback ozzie jersey for less than $100 … it still had its price tag of $300 attached.

by jeff_abs on Aug 7, 2008 12:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Those are probably fake

You have to be very careful with autographs.

by sdrone on Aug 7, 2008 12:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Official Site has some stuff:

http://shop.mlb.com/category/index.jsp?categoryId=1452905&cp=1452367

It might be a good basis for autograph prices.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 12:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great read

Thanks for that.

Also did you see the poll on the main site: http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/

Greatest living pitcher:
Top 5:
  1. Pedro Martinez (21%, 725 Votes)
  2. Greg Maddux (21%, 706 Votes)
  3. Sandy Koufax (16%, 552 Votes)
  4. Bob Gibson (15%, 496 Votes)
  5. Roger Clemens (9%, 301 Votes)

Someone needs to help me bump up Gibby

by StLHugo on Aug 7, 2008 9:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pedro at #1??

Pedro was good…but he aint no Gibson or even Maddux. Me thinks alot of East Coast voters in that poll.

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 9:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly

Pedro “was” good is even more important, he was good for a few seasons, the best in baseball at the time but he has since been very injured and just doesn’t have what it takes anymore to be an Ace.

by StLHugo on Aug 7, 2008 9:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he has the greatest ERA+ in history

actually it is second now that Mo Rivera passed the 1000 inn threshold…but Pedro (157) blows away all other starting pitchers inlcuding Lefty (148), Big Train (147), Rocket (143), Unit (137), and Maddux (132)

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 10:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

especially if you consider Pedro's numbers

in relation to the rest of the league. He was a dominating pitcher during a hitters’ era.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 7, 2008 11:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep. Pedro's the man

He spent a good portion of his career on crappy teams too…..

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Aug 7, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

me thinks you have some midwest bias...

Maddux is and was great and i could listen to that argument for being the best ever. but Gibby can’t really compare to Pedro unless you just talk about counting stats and even then i would take pedro.

pedro ‘00 > gibby ‘68

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 10:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

304.7 IP, 28 CG, 13 shutouts

Plus, Gibson allowed 49 runs total, five more than Pedro in nearly 100 more IP. If you want to use the subjective ER totals, Gibby allowed 4 fewer. Pedro allowed 17 homers, Gibson 10. I’m sorry, but when a guy throws 21 more complete games, 93 more innings, and allows fewer earned runs and fewer home runs, on top of having nearly twice as many shutouts (13 for Gibson to Pedro’s 7), it is mind-boggling. Pedro’s 2000 was great, but it take a backseat to Gibson’s 1968.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 11:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're comparing across generations

Gibby played in a time when those kind of IP numbers weren’t mind-boggling. The only reasonable way to compare pitchers is in the context of their time, in which case I give Pedro the edge to Gibby. Slightly.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 11:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To Disregard the IP is a complete Fallacy

He pitched longer with better results. He didn’t tire as the work load increased. With the fewer IP that Pedro pitched he should of been EVEN BETTER than Gibby.

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 7, 2008 11:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And the medical field was much more advanced in Pedro's time

Meaning a faster recovery after starts

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 7, 2008 11:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And did it off a higher mound that was by all accounts, easier to throw from.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 7, 2008 11:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure, they were

But that doesn’t change the fact that, even with throwing nearly 1/3 more innings, Gibson still gave up fewer earned runs and fewer homers than Pedro did in 93 fewer IP.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 11:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes...

He did all of that from a higher mound, too. Again, context.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 11:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

go look at the avg era in the '68

then go look at it in ‘00…that is why he gave up fewer runs…it was A LOT harder to score back then. im not trying to discount what Gibby did, it was amazing, but Petey was better that year and maybe ‘98 and ‘99 too.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 11:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and Maddux in '94

for that matter

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 11:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

exactly

Pedro was a SO much better then his peers…Gibby was better too but it was a lot closer because of the offensivelessness* in the late 60’s

*Trade marked

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 11:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, to be fair.

Pedro had a lot more sucky peers, due to the continued expansion. Players that wouldn’t have been in the big leagues to drag down stats in Gibby’s era were pitching 150 innings in Pedro’s.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 7, 2008 11:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you really believe that the modern athlete is "sucky"

compared to that time even with expansion? i just cant see that, maybe i am biased though…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 11:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I see what he's saying

If there were only 16 teams now, players like Adam Kennedy, Cesar Izturis, Felipe Lopez, etc. would not be on major league rosters right now, meaning better talent would be assembled per team. I’m not sure the argument holds, but I understand it.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 7, 2008 11:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i understand it too

i just dont believe it…i think AK or izz2 would be better then the worst players of that era…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 12:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't forget Jo-El Pinata

I am just saying that more bad pitchers means a higher average ERA for the whole league. Pedro’s year was great. Maybe the greatest year ever for a pitcher. I am trying to say that it is impossible to compare statistics between the two eras. Not only did hitters change (i.e. less afraid of striking out in order to hit a few more homers), but the whole league changed. Ballparks changed dimensions.

You know what, though? That is what makes debating points like this so fun. There is no clear-cut right answer.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 7, 2008 12:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agreed

i love this crap

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 12:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

baseball is more global now...

Gibby pitched against 16 teams of American players
Pedro pitched against 30 teams of Global players

by andujar on Aug 7, 2008 2:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While being true

That doesn’t resolve the “better than his peers” test. There were as many, or more, future HOF pitchers pitching in 2000 as there were in 1968, and Pedro was much better than those guys against the same competition and better than 3 runs better than the league average.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 7, 2008 11:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"There were as many, or more, future HOF pitchers pitching in 2000 as there were in 1968"

Is that an indictment of how the HOF bar has been lowered?

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 7, 2008 11:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No

I’m simply saying there were as many good pitchers then as there are now, yet Pedro was much better than his peers in 2000 than Gibson was in 1968. Using HOF pitchers was just the barometer.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 7, 2008 11:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maddux, Clemens, Unit,

Pedro, Glavine, Smoltz, Mo Rivera…i dont think those are lowering a bar at all…maybe raising it in fact.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 12:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Watered-down rosters

Personally, I believe that expansion has watered down the rosters and pitching staffs. There are many more AAAA pitchers in the bigs nowadays, which drags down the curve, as compared to earlier eras.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 12:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Craig Biggio? Rafael Palmeiro (before the positive test)?

There’s alot of names of guys being floated around right now that IMO wouldn’t have stood a HOF chance 50 years ago

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 7, 2008 12:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i disagree about biggio

he would have been a bigger star back then but the post was about HOF pitchers though.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 12:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess it was

But I was just speaking in general terms about the HOF

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 7, 2008 12:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Biggio was a catcher and 2bman

I can understand criticism of guys like Raffy and McGriff, but I doubt Biggio misses the hall in any era.

Not to mention that you have guys like Jim Bunning in the hall.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Aug 7, 2008 1:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And yet guys like Tommy John and Jim Rice are sitting on the sideline

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 7, 2008 1:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And Bert Blyleven

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Aug 7, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And Ken Boyer

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Aug 7, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And Joe Jackson

Scandal or no, he was one of the best in that time frame

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 7, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wow, Kenny Boyer?

really? he was good, especially his peak years, but even those werent HOF worthy i dont think…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 1:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and well should be

unlike Blyleven, who should’ve gone in years ago.

by chuckb on Aug 8, 2008 1:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Other than Gibson's

big year, I would have to say that Koufax was the most dominating pitcher saw. People that never saw him just can’t imagine. I also had the sad privilege of seeing him “throw away his arm in his last season in the WS against Baltimore. Willie Davis ( a normally good center fielder) dropped 2 consectutive routine fly balls with 2 out in the seventh inning of a shutout that Koufax had going and he literly threw his arm away pitching out of the inning. He never pitched again. He had been taking cortizone shots the day before to pitch for several years. Koufax pitched with a lot of pain..he was amazing.

by ridgesee on Aug 7, 2008 1:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know

Randy Johnson’s 2002 is probably not that much father behind Pedro’s 2000 (if at all) than, say one of Koufax’s seasons was behind Gibson’s 1968.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Aug 7, 2008 1:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ERA+

Pedro ‘00: 291
Unit ‘02: 197

it was great but not Pedro 2000 great

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 1:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but you're right re:

Koufax and Gibby

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 1:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i love gibby muchly

but i have to agree with mojo. I am not sure about this, and I know ERA is not the greatest stat, but I think Pedro had a sub-2.00 ERA one year when no other starter in the AL had an ERA under 3.00.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 7, 2008 11:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

I agree with you bgh, as I did the other day when talking about the greatest living Cardinals. There are so few players who are so dominant that they literally change the way the game is played because of you. Gibson and Kareem are the only two I can think of on that list.

All that being said, I can see how Nomar could come to that conclusion. While Gibson was dominating that season, Denny McClain, Louis Tiant, and Dave McNally were also incredibly good, 7 major league starters had an ERA under 2.00, and the league ERA was 2.99. Gibson’s season was fantastic, but not as fantastic as compared to the rest of the league that season.

Pedro in 2000 was probably as dominant as Gibson was in 1968, and you could make an argument that he was more dominant. When you consider his ERA was over 3 runs below league average, he struck out nearly as many hitters as Gibson in 100 fewer innings pitched, and his ERA+ was over 160 points higher than the next closest starting pitcher, you can see how someone could make that argument.

I would take Gibson, simply because he’s going out there and giving me 9 dominant innings nearly every single start—whereas Boston had to rely on a decent bullpen to get them to the 9th inning in all but 7 starts. Gibson also started more games than Pedro did that season. If Pedro had worked Gibby’s workload, his body probably would have broken down.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 7, 2008 11:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

re: broke down

i will agree with that although i think pedro could have finished more games just didnt have to but that is speculation

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 11:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's probably true

Although Gibby lost 3 or 4 games 1-0 that season as well.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 7, 2008 11:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pure **Speculation** on Pedro

His slight build makes me doubt whether he could throw 300 innings in a season. As do his subsequent shoulder problems. What I’m saying is that, had Pedro gone out and throw 300 innings/year for Montreal in the mid-1990’s, I don’t know that his late 1990’s/early 2000’s take place because I suspect that his shoulder injury manifests itself earlier in his career. Again, pure speculation.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 12:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

But I don’t think it’s revelant. Gibson threw lots of innings at a time when people threw lots of innings. Pedro threw less innings at a time when people threw less innings. It doesn’t make any sense to compare the two because even if he COULD have pitched 300 innings in a season, he likely never would have been asked to. So you can hardly dock him points for only throwing 200-some innings—that’s what people did.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 1:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's not a matter of docking him points

it’s a matter of giving Gibson points for throwing more innings-it’s the same thing as crediting a player for going 20/20 with 6 HR in the eight games after the 154th of the season-the other guy didn’t get a chance to take those AB, but that doesn’t mean that the first guy didn’t do more with the extended opportunity. I don’t know if I buy the injury argument, anyway, since most of those innings are a function of a four man rotation, not of crazy managers throwing their guys out there constantly (though they did a lot of that, too)

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Aug 7, 2008 1:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nomar, I see your points, but

I think it has been established at this point that those who favor Bob Gibson are not merely engaging in Mid-West bias. Gibson’s numbers are objectively better. The only argument is whether they are relatively better. Certainly, it is not bias to hold a belief based upon objective facts.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Aug 7, 2008 12:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Poll-stuffing stupidity

Geez…Did Jim Palmer die? What happened to Nolan Ryan? Is he dead, too?

by Red in Chicago on Aug 7, 2008 11:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

leaving Nolan Ryan

off of this list is an absolute crime against humanity. Seven no hitters! He played on so many bad teams, he’s probably have many more wins than either Clemens or Maddux. I get tired of hearing how Clemens is the best pitcher of the last half century. I’ll take Ryan any day over Roger.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 7, 2008 11:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So is Randy Johnson.

His 1993-2004 was sick, just sick. ERA+ will tell you otherwise but imho he was the most dominant, most feared pitcher in baseball for well over a decade.

by mattisnotfrench on Aug 7, 2008 11:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1 on the Unit since he is the best Lefty IMO...

and leaving Nolan off the list is crazy of Joe but he is nowhere near the greatest living pitcher… maybe hardest throwing or most intemidating but that is it.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 11:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

think maybe that Ryans walk rate early in his career might have

been considered a bit too much in that poll? I have gotten in many arguments over the greatness of Nolan Ryan, and almost every time his walk totals were used as rebuttal.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Aug 7, 2008 5:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's just unbelievable

these voters don’t even know who Bob Gibson is!!!! he is the greatest pitcher of all time!

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 7, 2008 1:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great (and true) Pujols quote

“Some ridiculous writer wrote something about what’s wrong with me. What’s wrong with hitting .340 or .350? Am I supposed to hit .400? Is that how high I’ve (raised) these goals? I think it is real ridiculous.”

by sdrone on Aug 7, 2008 9:05 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

After going 4-4 with a grand slam

I really don’t think there is much wrong with Albert. At this point he has to be in the top 3 for NL MVP with Ryan Ludwick being right there with him. Unless Chase Utley or Ryan Braun catches fire in the final month…I think Albert will win his 2nd MVP this season.

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 9:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hope you're right

Unfortunately, I fear his MVP award is dependent on our making the playoffs and bucking the “overachievers” storyline that has inexplicably followed us all season. (If anything, with our ‘pen troubles, we are underachieving.) Albert’s second MVP honor may depend on how Carp, Wainwright, and Perez throw down the stretch.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 10:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if Braun wins the MVP with those rate stats i will...

probably do nothing because i am lazy but it would be a travisty in this day and age…of course JRoll won last year

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 10:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree wholeheartedly

JRoll’s MVP is a travesty against the great game of baseball. With the same voters, they’ll probably do something equally as silly this year.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 11:16 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rollins only got it because of the Mets collapse.

If the Mets would have hung on Rollins would not have won. He had a great season but he got lucky off another team’s choke job.

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 11:19 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Writers note

home run sprees and home run droughts. It’s kinda sorta their job. I’d have to go back and read Strauss’s articles or hear his questions in the locker room to be sure, but I don’t recall him saying anything was “wrong” with Pujols. Bernie did jokingly the other day in a mocking effort to ignite Pujols, but he was obviously screwing around.

Pujols is prickly. It’s part of his charm.

by Youneverknow on Aug 7, 2008 9:09 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Speaking of home run sprees

How unconscious is Studwick right now? Sheesh. Seems like the guy’s got a 50/50 chance of hitting a homer every time he steps into the box.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 9:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look out, Chicago

An angry, warming up Pujols is coming to down with a red hot Ludwick riding shotgun. Oh, and Chris Carpenter is back.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 10:02 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wouldn't that be an AWESOME poster?

Pujols riding a horse at the head of a posse including Luddy, Ank, Glaus, and Carp? There could be a small bear and a sausage fleeing for safety in front.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 7, 2008 11:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

made me laugh

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 7, 2008 12:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 7, 2008 1:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fingers crossed

Hope Ludwick breaks our franchise record today for homers in 6 straight games!!!!!!

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 10:06 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ludwick, Ryan has the longest home runs in 2008 Season in these park(s): Dodger Stadium, Citizens Bank Park, Busch Stadium

http://www.hittrackeronline.com/detail.php?id=2008_294&type=hitter
He is also tied with Rick and AP in a couple parks for the longest.

Ankiel, Rick has the longest home runs in 2008 Season in these park(s): Busch Stadium
Pujols, Albert has the longest home runs in 2008 Season in these park(s): Citizens Bank Park, Busch Stadium

by StLHugo on Aug 7, 2008 9:22 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When was this updated?

If you extrapolate Ludwick’s bomb last Saturday into the middle of Big Mac Land in the upper deck, I’d have to believe that one was the longest at Busch this year.

And didn’t they say on Friday that his homer earlier in the week was the longest of the season at Busch?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 7, 2008 11:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

I thought Ludwick’s 450 footer was the longest in Busch III history

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 7, 2008 1:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

#1 & #2 in slugging?

Wow.

It never ceases to amaze me that a) we’ve received an enormous gift with the year Ludwick is having. If his production had come as a deadline trade or free agent signing, it would be getting much more press and b) Albert continues to put up “best player in the majors” numbers year-after-year, yet the dude was awarded only one MVP in his era. It’s criminal.

"Well, folks, this game began as a tiny worm and is blossoming into a large cobra." - Mike "The Moon Man" Shannon

by Tudor's Electric Fan on Aug 7, 2008 9:24 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Top 5

Ludwick .623
Pujols .618
Berkman .597
Jones .596
Holliday .594

OPS Albert is 1 Ludwick is 5, same top 5 just different order.

by StLHugo on Aug 7, 2008 9:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just as a fun reminder

Remember when the press went all ape-** about Albert’s elbow before the season? He dropped in fantasy baseball drafts and everyone was talking about how the Cardinals were 4th placers “if Albert can stay on the field with that elbow that’s hanging by a thread.”

Meanwhile Albert was saying, “My elbow is fine. Nothing has changed. What are you all babbling about?”

It’s funny how the press can whip itself into a frenzy sometimes. All that talk is gone now…in fact, I haven’t heard anything of the sort mentioned all season.

I

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 9:38 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, to be fair, wasn't Albert saying that

after showing up at Winter Warmups unable to move his elbow much?

by sdrone on Aug 7, 2008 9:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think so

Albert said that he has had the problem for years and that after the 2003 season when we didn’t make the playoffs, his elbow felt great for the 2004 season because of the time off. He anticipated no problems this year after no 2007 postseason.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 10:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Brewers have lucked out with their schedule this month.

I really hope we can keep on winning because we will have to to keep pace with the Brewers. I just checked out their schedule for the rest of August and they are going to be facing some of the weakest teams in the NL.
4 games against the Nationals
3 games against the Padres
6 games against the Pirates
3 games against the Astros

The only teams they face that are above .500 are
3 games against the Dodgers
2 games against us at Busch.

And us…oh we just have to go on the road to face the Cubs and the Marlins starting this weekend.

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 9:38 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That isn't lucking out

All season it’s been noted that we had an easy schedule early and the Brew Crew had an easy schedule late. They have played tough competion much better than we have this year(exluding last week against the cubs). This was bound to happen. We needed to REALLY take advantage of our early schedule or now we have to prove we can take down some tough teams in order to keep pace with the Brewers.

Not anything to do with luck. It is actually called a schedule.

gonna need more franklins to get through this one.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Aug 7, 2008 9:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was being kind of a homer pointing out the Brewers easy schedule

compaired to ours over the next couple of weeks. I know it’s called a schedule..lighten up.

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 9:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry

came off harsh there, didn’t mean to.

gonna need more franklins to get through this one.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Aug 7, 2008 9:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No problem and you are right

if we have any ideas of being a playoff team we will have to beat the Cubs and the Marlins. I think the next week is really going to be a BIG factor in deciding our fate in terms of getting to October. If we go in to Wrigley and get swept or go 1-2 that’s going to be a pretty big hit to us. Not to mention having to go to Miami and having to play the overlooked Marlins that can score alot of runs on pitching mistakes.

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 10:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

going 1-2 at Wrigley

is exceptable, you only lose 1 game in standings..lose all three and you lose 3 games in standings, not exceptable.

by ridgesee on Aug 7, 2008 10:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True but to be honest I am more worried about keeping pace with the Brewers

at this point. I hate to say it but right now I am not considering the Cubs as our roadblock to getting to the playoffs. I’m more worried about keeping pace with the Brewers for the wild card…I think trying to take the Central from the Cubs…while fun to think of…is kind of out of reach for us. Barring some kind of epic collapse the Cubs will win the Central. They have the best hitting/pitching in the division.

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 10:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, I don't see a collapse from the Cubs

but, for some reason, I do see one coming from the Brewers. I think our trip to play the marlins is very important. I have a feeling the Wild card will come down to us and the fish

gonna need more franklins to get through this one.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Aug 7, 2008 10:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can feel their collapse coming too......

I mean look at the Fielder-Parra fight lol they are feeling the pressure!

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 10:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Cubs basically can't collapse

That’s the most balanced team ever. No true superstars this year, but everyone is doing well.

Plus, they have a deep rotation. Barring both Harden AND Zambrano going on the DL, I gotta think they’re a shoe-in.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 11:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree the Cubs won't collapse

as a Cardinal fan it’s tough to admit but I’ll say it….they are by far the best team in the NL. Like him or not Hendry has put together an all around solid team with basically no holes and a team that is taylor made for their ballpark. Picking up Soriano, DeRosa, Dempster and yes even Edmonds has worked out in spades for them. If Hendry don’t win GM of the year I don’t know who will.

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 11:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I dunno about "can't"

They haven’t been very good scoring runs on the road all year, their bullpen has been suspect at times, and they have a ton of road games left in September, so a collapse isn’t completely out of the question, especially if some of their oft-injured players (Wood, Soriano, Harden, Edmonds) end up missing significant time during the stretch run.

Anything can happen. I wouldn’t consider it likely, but I’m not just going to pencil them in as champs when there are two teams less than 6 games out.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 7, 2008 12:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay, so it would take a lot

That’s what I really meant.

I mean, their best hitter (Soriano) has been out a ton this year and their lineup didn’t miss a beat. Zambrano also spent time on the DL. Wood’s been out and that hasn’t really slowed them down either. They have so much talent spread over so many players that I think it would take a catastrophic rash of injuries to really cripple them enough that they would lose the division lead.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 1:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sweep L.A. and head to Chicago

I think we can win the series despite the Baby Bears’ advantage with an off day today.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 10:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hope.. but our offense has to find a way to beat

Lilly and Zambrano. They have shut us down a lot the past couple of seasons. I would think as many times the team has faced Zambrano now, they would have more of an idea how to hit him. Let’s hope they get it figured out this weekend.

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 10:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not to mention......

We need to find a way to beat Harden…......man they have a good rotation….

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 7, 2008 10:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dempster on Sunday

If I’m not mistaken, and I could be, Dempster is slated to start on Sunday. It’s Looper vs. Lilly on Friday, Colonel vs. Zambrano on Saturday, and Carp vs. Dempster on Sunday. That not an easy row to hoe, for sure, but I’m guessing one of either Friday or Saturday will be a close, well-pitched game that comes down to luck.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 10:27 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for correctly using

that figure of speech, “row to hoe.” It is usually used wrong.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 7, 2008 10:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+10 (to the 10th)

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Aug 7, 2008 11:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm from Iowa

...where there are a lot of rows.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 11:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hi-hoooooo

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 7, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Take it to the bank,

Felipe Lopez will make magic for us in Chicago this weekend.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 7, 2008 10:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yup - he'll make the offense disappear!

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Aug 7, 2008 11:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Budda BING!

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Aug 7, 2008 3:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hope TLR

puts out the lineup that gives us the best chance to win today. We need this sweep. We to pick up games in relation to .500 at home. going 3-3 just isn’t acceptable for a home series. 4-2 sounds much better.

gonna need more franklins to get through this one.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Aug 7, 2008 10:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

He has said that the best players will play. Hopefully this means that only Yadi gets a break.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 10:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yet...

Lopez, Kennedy and Iz2 were all in the starting lineup last night. Maybe he meant the best players WON’T play. Except for Pujols, Yadi and Glaus who are of course established veterans.

by cardzfanbub on Aug 7, 2008 10:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And we scored 9 runs

The Mad Scientist at his finest. Hopefully, this means that we’ll get our “best” lineup tonight.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 10:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't really have a huge issue with last night's lineup

Iz2 is at short because a) he’s swinging okay lately and b) with Ryan gone, he’s basically the only viable option. Kennedy at second worked okay, I’d say. Lopez probably just got in the game because it was his first day with the team…I think there’s something to be said for welcoming a guy with a start, as much as I don’t like him in the OF.

by mojowo11 on Aug 7, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am more than happy to welcome...

Lopez with a start. It should have been at second base with Mather in left and Kennedy on the bench, but it all worked out well enough.

by cardzfanbub on Aug 7, 2008 11:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lopez

Lopez sucks, the onlt middle infielder he is better than is cesar iztures.

Miles and Kennedy are far better.

by cardsrule15 on Aug 7, 2008 12:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"I think the next week is really going to be a BIG factor in deciding our fate in terms of getting to October"

I feel like we’ve been saying that for the past month

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 7, 2008 10:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In reality

every series now is deciding our fate in terms of getting to October

gonna need more franklins to get through this one.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Aug 7, 2008 10:16 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And the real b**ch about having to keep pace with the Brewers is

as Hardcore Legend pointed out last week…if it wasn’t for all the blown saves we had against the Brewers this season…we would have at least a 4-5 game lead on them right now.

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 10:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That would be a nice cushion down the stretch

As it stands, we’re neck-and-neck down the home stretch and we still with a good shot at making the postseason. Hopefully, Perez is solution.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 7, 2008 10:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In fact if we don't make the playoffs

I will be much more mad at us giving games away to the Brewers and basically giving the the wild card than I would be the Cubs winning the division over us.

by KYCards on Aug 7, 2008 11:06 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Definetly

If the Cardinals could have taken at least 2 of 4 (which they should have):
Cardinals: 66-50
Brewers: 62-53

by cardsrule15 on Aug 7, 2008 11:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs