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Hard to Explain

You know what? I had just about begun to believe that Izzy was, in fact, some sort of anime character. You know, the kind where the main character gets kicked into a mountain and the top of said mountain bursts open in a huge cloud of dust. The villain stands there, chuckling and explaining why the hero is weak. He continues talking to no one, when suddenly- wait! The voice of the hero comes from the huge crater left in the ground. He's not only still alive, but his power level has somehow increased threefold, and he now has a dramatic monlogue to recite as the enemies' eyes fly open, looking stunned.

Sadly, I'm now almost completely convinced that Isringhausen doesn't have a drop of Saiyan blood in him, nor is he any sort of Samurai warrior, spirit based or otherwise. (If you have no idea what I'm talking about here, pat yourself on the back. You've got a real life! The rest of you are all nerds.) I'm pretty sure that Izzy is, in fact, just done.

Of course, luckily, we have Ryan Ludwick to come along and save the day, hitting a bomb to center field in order to get everybody off the hook. I would imagine there were some very, very relieved relief pitchers on that bench last night when Luddy connected with that ball. Suddenly, it no longer mattered quite so much what they had done; the game was still won, and that's all that matters, right?

Can we finally call it quits now Tony? Please? Can we please, please just stop this farce, of running two relievers out there, day after day, who simply don't have what it takes to get the job done any longer? We all remember how bad things got toward the end of 2006. Well, we're right there again now, and I'm just not sure how much La Russa has actually learned. I suppose we'll see whether or not those past lessons have taken root. if we see Perez on his way back up, and possibly Jason Motte to go along with him, great. We may yet see this team have another run in them. If not, though, well...

All of the late inning collapses and shenanigans served largely to take the focus away from where it really belonged last night. The performance that Chris Carpenter handed the Cardinals was astounding. Carp last night was as sharp as I think I've ever seen him. Even with a curveball that still wants to roll a bit as opposed to snapping down, I couldn't help but think that Carpenter looked ready to anchor a rotation again right now. The man is unbelievable.

The other major news of the night was the Cardinals' newest acquisition, that of recently released utility infielder Felipe Lopez. Sigh.

You know, I've been a pretty staunch backer of Mozeliak since the beginning of his term, but this move is just flat out bad. I could say lots of things about Lopez, and why he doesn't appreciably improve the Cards' chances, and all of these other things, but I'm going to keep it short and, well, somewhat less than sweet.

This season, Lopez sports a nifty EqA of .218. That's exactly identical to that of Cesar Izturis. It's just a hairs breadth better than that of Brendan Ryan, the player whose roster spot Lopez will be taking, which sits at a robust .214. Lopez offers no real upgrade over two of the weakest offensive players in all of baseball, and guess what? He sucks out loud with a glove on his hand, too. Both Ryan and Izturis are capable of playing great defense, at least somewhat mitigating their complete lack of offensive production. Lopez is a liability on the defensive side of the ball, too. Congratulations, Mo. I didn't think it was possible, but you managed to find a player who actually represents a downgrade over our current middle infield options.

Hey, at least Lopez offers versatility, right? He can play three middle infield positions, and the outfield too! Can I tell you how sick I am of hearing this line too? I have had pretty much my fill of hearing about how many options a player offers you, when all the options he offers are bad ones. If I offer to punch you in the face, kick you in the crotch, or stab you in the side with a sharpened screwdriver, is that better than just offering one of those three services? True, you do have options this way, but they still all kind of suck.

Bottom line, Felipe Lopez is a bad ballplayer. He offers no real upgrade to this team, and significantly hurts them in at least one facet of the game. I suppose it didn't take any talent to acquire him, though, so there's that, right? Eh. This move still gets a big, solid whatever from me.

I'm cutting it short this morning, folks. Discuss amongst yourselves, and I'll see you all again later this evening with a game thread. Have a nice day, everybody.

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Is it sad that I chuckled at this?

Or, that I began wondering whether Izzy would be Goku or Vegeta.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 6, 2008 10:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

it's pretty clear to me

that the bullpen would represent all the scrubs … tien, yamcha, etc.

yes I’m a nerd.

by jeff_abs on Aug 6, 2008 10:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

One Nerd to Rule All

I learned Japanese in High School so I could watch DBZ that I ordered in Japan.

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 6, 2008 11:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Izzy doesn't throw the

kamehameha.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Aug 6, 2008 10:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

actually it was

WHAT? OVER 9000?

I''m a Jenius!

If Adam Kennedy can make a MLB roster, anyone can!

by gibbons on Aug 6, 2008 6:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

FWIW

Lopez has been more passable away from Washington this year, to the tune of .292/.349/.387/.736.

Pardon me while I cling tightly to this fact for hope.

by mojowo11 on Aug 6, 2008 10:47 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Multifuncitonality

Why would we want to take ABs away from Mather, Schumaker, Ankiel, or Ludwick and hand them to Lopez as an OFer? Essentially, playing Lopez in the outfield is taking time away from those four. Why on God’s green earth would we want to do that?

What’s more, we don’t need another MIF. We need a power bat who can pinch hit with pop and sub at third or first as needed. Instead, we add another middling middle infielder. This is a move that is as unnecessary as it is nonsensical and Mo deserves whatever criticism comes from it.

Mojo, I still believe in a place called hope and as much as I want to liken the move to Abe Nunez, I can’t. He’s Abe Nunez minus the glove, plus attitude. No thank you.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 6, 2008 10:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'm with you

But maybe, MAYBE he’ll show a little bit of that .291/.352/.486 we saw in 2005. In that case, I could excuse playing him at 2B/SS. However, if they play him in the outfield EVER, TLR should be fired on the spot. That’d just be silly.

Otherwise, while I’m not sure this move is necessarily bad, I do think it’s pretty pointless.

by mojowo11 on Aug 6, 2008 10:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Absolutely

I agree that there was once a productive player there and that said productive player could re-emerge. I just don’t know that we should be placing a bet on that in the midst of a neck-and-neck playoff race. I think that we both agree on this point.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 6, 2008 11:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

lopez's 2005 year

was most likely attributed to PED’s

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by Bahamaredbird on Aug 6, 2008 11:06 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Great. He fits right in.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Aug 6, 2008 11:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

this is a blog, who needs evidence?

/buzz

How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor

by themanthemyth on Aug 6, 2008 11:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Come on!

Has he ever tested positive? remember, MLB was testing in 2005. Why would you make such an outlandish accusation w/ no evidence whatsoever?

by houstoncardinal on Aug 6, 2008 11:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I could be wrong but

Barry never tested positive either

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by Bahamaredbird on Aug 6, 2008 11:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

has any evidence ever been presented

under oath that Lopez took steroids? I might be wrong, but I don’t think it has.

by houstoncardinal on Aug 6, 2008 11:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Can they test for HGH?

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by Bahamaredbird on Aug 6, 2008 11:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

nope

does HGH help in the absence of steroids? nope. did you say he took HGH? nope. You said steroids. Continue w/ this vapid argument if you want but you know that there is no evidence of any kind that Felipe Lopez has ever taken steroids and it’s irresponsible of you to say that he has.

by houstoncardinal on Aug 6, 2008 11:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

FWIW

He didn’t say “steroids”. He said “PEDs” and HGH falls under the category of PEDs.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 6, 2008 2:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

whether HGH actually enhances performance is a subject of medical debate

FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG

by astrostl on Aug 6, 2008 3:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

No

Although supposedly there’s a good HGH test coming very soon.

by mojowo11 on Aug 6, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Like

the wily vet Rick Ankiel?

"If I ain't startin' I ain't departin'"

by templetown on Aug 6, 2008 3:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

just because he took it

doesn’t mean it did anything

by mattybobo on Aug 6, 2008 3:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

He took it to help heal a tendon after a surgery

Which is what HGH is very handy at doing…that’s what it’s used for medically.

by mojowo11 on Aug 6, 2008 5:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

but he's a switch hitter!!

and therefore it can’t be a pointless signing!!! Talk about versatility!!

- Editor’s note: the above comments are completely tongue in cheek

by A1R3Z on Aug 6, 2008 11:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

We do need another MIF

Just not one whose performance mirrors what we’ve already got. Mo must have a running bet with the other GMs (maybe a new GM rite of passage?) that he can assemble the worst MIF of all time.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 6, 2008 11:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'd leave Lopez at SS

For a few games and see if he’s any better than Izturis. Depending on the numbers you could also try him at 2B if Miles needs a break and you want to avoid using Kennedy. I would only use Lopez as an emergency OF, ie: never.

I''m a Jenius!

If Adam Kennedy can make a MLB roster, anyone can!

by gibbons on Aug 6, 2008 6:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Thats not even the worst of it

Looks like we also placed a claim on Livan thankfully Colorado picked him up first

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 6, 2008 11:02 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Didn't it just say.....

That Colorado won their claim over A team with a better record? I don’t recall it pointing specifically to us. Could have been one of a few teams.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 6, 2008 11:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

It did

I posted it on here, and I said I though that the other team was probably us. It said it was a NL team with a better record than Colorado, so that already eliminates like four or five teams

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 6, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Ha, Ha! Livan is the ultimate "pitch to contact" pitcher.......

The Twins have good defense. If he couldn’t perform well there, I don’t see him performing well in Colorado. It will be quite a high wire act for him to be successful. His fastball tops out at about 83 these days…......

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Aug 6, 2008 12:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Defense doesn't matter much

when the “contact” = a ball landing five rows deep in the seats…. :-)

Livan here in Denver could be worse than the Denny Neagle disaster a few years back. Yeesh.

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

by cardsfanindenver on Aug 6, 2008 4:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

actually

according to the defensive metrics that someone posted yesterday, the Twins were near the bottom of the league in defense.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 6, 2008 9:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'm hoping that getting Lopez now

makes B.Ryan better in September. Brendan simply wasn’t able to contribute much as a bench player. He’ll get to play every day for a few weeks, and when he gets back he’ll be in a better position to contribute.

by hit and run on Aug 6, 2008 11:01 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

I'm definately going with the sharpened screwdriver.

It wont’ effect my fertility AND it has the impressive story going along with the scar. “Yeah, I got stabbed in the side with a sharpened screwdriver.” I will neglect to say that it was by an anime-loving internet blogger. I might enhance it a bit and add prison time to it and maybe call it a shank wound.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 6, 2008 11:01 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

No offense, the red baron, I love ya, man!

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 6, 2008 11:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Not so sure about that choice

Of the three, the screwdriver to the side would seem to have the most potential for life-threatening complications (infection from the dirty screwdriver, internal bleeding, hit a vital organ…) Of course, the brag factor would be highest. Much higher than the trauma to the groin option.

by ArkansasTravs on Aug 6, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Exactly! That's what I'm talking about.

How many guys get kicked in the balls? Lots. How many guys get stabbed with a sharpened screwdriver? Not many. Maybe Aaron Miles. He’s gritty enough to survive it.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 6, 2008 3:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

End the Charade

As for the ‘pen, this was the final straw for me. I had tricked myself into believing that the Brothers Grimm (Izzy and Franky) could do the job now that their traditional roles had been re-assigned, but they can’t. For those of us who still purchase the paper and ink version of the Baseball Prospectus, we are witnessing “collapse.” It is the end of the road for the once-reliable, always dramatic, Izzy. Sadly, I don’t know that he has any value for the roster, even in low leverage situations.

Give the closer job to McClellan, who we can promptly dub with the nom du guerre of “McCloser,” DFA Izzy unceremoniously, and call up Perez. Drastic times call for drastic measures and I’ll be darned if we are going to waste a season of Pujols at his peak due to misplaced devotion to battle-worn warriors who can no longer get it done in the late innings. I appreciate everything that Izzy has done for us over his Cardinal career and wish that he could have attained his 300th save this year, but we can’t afford to throw games away trotting him out there any longer.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 6, 2008 11:04 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

DFA Izzy

Man, I wish that was even a remote possibility, but I don’t see them ever doing that, after all he’s done for the organization. I wish it could, but it seems like a pipe dream to me.

I’m really not set on McClellan closing either. I like the fact that he can come in during high leverage situations in the 6th, 7th, and 8th innings. I think he’s much more valuable that way. If you’re going to call up Perez and DFA Isringhausen, I’d make Perez the closer and live with what happens. It can’t be any worse than Izzy.

That being said, McCloser is a great moniker and the club might be able to get more marketing dollars from McDonalds as well. :-D

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 6, 2008 11:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Trade Izzy for Favre?

"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz

by taiko on Aug 6, 2008 11:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'm thinking...

something I’m not accustomed to to begin with…that if we can DL Izzy and/or Franklin, then put them on a 10 day rehab they can come up when the rosters expand and ride the bench while the young guys do the work. WW gave Izzy a lot of credit for what he was able to accomplish as the closer in late 2006…maybe he can do the same for Perez/Motte/Worrell…?

by cardzfanbub on Aug 6, 2008 11:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Lets give it to the rookies

Just like in 06 either K-Mac or Perez as closer and give Jaime a bigger job in the pen too….win or lose with the rookies!

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 6, 2008 11:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

closer = Wainwright; Lopez = decision after bong hit?

At this moment, the starting pitching can be considered OK. It’s not the greatest and probably not enough to make it past the first round of the playoffs, but it just might be good enough to get to the playoffs. Which, for this team, would be a nice accomplishment. I’m not advocating for mediocrity here, but making the playoffs as the Wild Card team would rock. Now, to MAKE IT there, the bullpen needs to be fixed and – voila! – here’s Adam Wainwright, aka the next John Smoltz. Save us a game, Adam! And again, and again… I know all those stats out there to argue he’s worth more in the starting rotation, but the Cardinals aren’t hemmoraging games in the starting rotation. Of course, they could move someone else to the bullpen… Todd W. As for the Lopez signing. Ummm. Maybe Mo just saw Pinapple Express or something? I don’t see the logic in this at all.

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

by palampe on Aug 6, 2008 11:05 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

I'd rather close Welley

For his own good and the club’s. Waino can go much deeper into games, and I think we can all agree that minimizing the bullpen innings right now is a great idea. Meanwhile, Welley is taking on a pretty heavy innings load for him. Let him finish up the season in the pen. His 95 MPH heat + nice slider are a textbook closer repetoire.

by mojowo11 on Aug 6, 2008 11:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

+1

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

by cardsfanindenver on Aug 6, 2008 11:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

"[T]he Cardinals aren’t hemmoraging games in the starting rotation"

Obviously you’ve missed Joel Pineiro’s last few starts

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 6, 2008 11:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Well...

...not all of the flaws in this team can be addressed. Here’s hopin’ that ol’ Joel figures out that he needs to be effective past inning #3. Are there any options that fix the closer-end of the bullpen AND improve the starting rotation? I can’t think of any way to move the pieces around to make that work. I really do hope either Wainwright or Welley can shore up the bullpen. With days scheduled off the rest of the schedule, can the Cardinals mimimize the damage Pineiro can do as a starter?

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

by palampe on Aug 6, 2008 12:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

the fact that our starters are not going deep into games

is part of the reason why our bullpen is not effective. the other two reasons are izzy and frankenstein

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 6, 2008 1:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Then how come......

Last year our starters NEVER went deep into games and our bullpen rocked?

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 6, 2008 6:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Alot of Negative Nancies around here lately.....

First, on Izzy and Franklin. I believe that both have been good enough in the past, and Izzy good enough over his career, alot of which has been spent in STL, to deserve EVERY POSSIBLE CHANCE. I think we’ve finally reached that point, though I’m not sure simply releasing either one is a legit option. Like I’ve mentioned before, you just don’t release guys like that, especially guys like Izzy. Like it or not, agree with it or not, TLR doesn’t like embarrassing players like that. I’m sure some of you will chime back in with how Izzy is embarrassing himself by the way he is pitching, and I don’t disagree. Hopefully he can be convinced to go back on the DL or something. Franklin hasn’t been good, but I think there is still a place for him in the bullpen, albeit it needs to be in a slightly different role. Anybody know Franklin’s contract status for next season?

Carp looked amazing last night, good to see. We should be in pretty nice shape rotation-wise next year, assuming we can stay healthy.

Not sure why everybody is SO against the Lopez signing. Ryan has had his chance this season, and has been VERY mediocre. Not to mention, MI has been our biggest problem this year, and projects to be our biggest problem going forward. Why not take a shot at a kid (he’s still relatively young) that just 3 seasons ago hit 23 HR’s, and this year has hit nearly .290 away from him home park? To me this is the ultimate low risk, high reward type signing…..much like Barton and Ludwick. Maybe Lopez comes in and produces exactly how he has all year, which is still on par with Ryan. Or maybe he comes in, feels rejuvinated, gets a tip from Hal, and becomes our best hitting MI, in which case we sign him for a year or two, and solve a major problem. Also, whether some of you want to admit it or not, with our bullpen in shambles, having a guy that can play multiple positions is a plus. Ryan was pretty much a SS/2B. Lopez can play that, plus 3B (which technically, Ryan can too), and the OF. He won’t get starts out there, but it creates a situation where maybe you can pinch hit for Skip late (against a lefty), and with no other OF options, you can move Lopez out there.

Bottom line is, with all the “problems” this team has, we are still roughly tied for the 2nd best record in the NL, and are only 5 games or so behind the Cubs. Some of you want to nit-pick every game, every loss, but when you step back and look at the season on a whole, we’ve been pretty darn good all things considered. I’d suggest some of you stop getting so upset, and enjoy the season for what it is, which is a MAJOR overachievement given the roster and injuries we’ve had.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 6, 2008 11:05 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Franklin

was signed to an extension by Jocketty last summer. We owe him $2.5 M next year w/ a $2.75 M option for 2010, w/ a 250K buyout. I still don’t get why he did that.

by houstoncardinal on Aug 6, 2008 11:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'm optimistic.....

That Franklin can contribute something next year. Maybe he is just tired, maybe he has a small injury that we don’t know about, but his performance of late has been a little mind blowing to me. I don’t mind the extension, in that at the time, there was no reason to think Franklin wouldn’t remain one of our better bullpen arms.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 6, 2008 11:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

not worth reading

After taking a look at the first two sentences, I knew this post had to come from one of two or three inane people who routinely spout nonsense here. Skipping to the tag-line, I found out that I was right. For the informed VEB community, don’t bother reading this. For the poster, you might try looking at good measures of current performance and reliable projectors of future performance instead of falling back to the ol’ reliable rah-rah baseball clichés. Organizations that think the way you do end up in the toilet. (See Mariners, Seattle).

by apack on Aug 6, 2008 11:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

and you might try reading the community guidelines as well

Criticize arguments, not posters. And, btw, isn’t it more than a little hypocritical to suggest that another’s post offers nothing in the way of valuable insight when yours offers nothing in the way of valuable, baseball-related, insight?

Here are the community guidelines for your reference.

by houstoncardinal on Aug 6, 2008 11:16 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

more crticial than I intended

HC, you’re right, I went over the line and focused on the negative rather than offering a good counter-argument. I apologize to you and to soonerfan, I’m just crabby today.

by apack on Aug 6, 2008 11:19 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs