Yadi in the 2 Hole
by rlgosnell on Aug 3, 2008 1:23 AM EDT
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PrintI know this goes against TLR's near insistence on power in the 2 Hole going back to his days with Carlton Fisk and the White Sox, but after watching tonight's dissapointing game I can't help but think about what I thought was the key at bat of the night. Bottom 8 and Mather grounds into the 6-4-3 to end the inning and leave Pujols on deck and Lidge coming in for the 9th to face the heart of the order with a clean slate. Personally, I felt that Mather took a poor approach to the plate for the at bat against a pitcher who stayed away with sliders the entire time. After getting ahead 2-0 Mather fouled off the next two pitches and rolled over on the last one to bounce into the inning ending double play. It was clear they were going to stay away and Mather never looked to hit the ball to the right side, instead insisting on pulling the ball. The desired outcome for the Phillies is painfully obvious - get the twin killing to leave Pujols to lead off with no men on and limiting his damage potential. Yet Mather never made an adjustment and played right into the Phillies' plan. The most important outcome for the Cards after that at bat was having Mather on base, regardless of how he got there. Not only did he not get on 1st, but he wiped out the inning.
In re-thinking that at bat I considered what would have happened and what would happen on a nightly basis if Yadi was in the 2 hole instead. There are obvious negatives to this lineup change. One, Yadi is slow. He's not just slow - he's painfully slow. He's so slow that he makes Manny's 5.7 time to first look like a blur. This presents obvious problems in terms of clogging the base paths, nearly eliminating runs from first on Pujols doubles and increasing potential GIDP's. It also takes a power bat out of the 2 hole and moves it down in the lineup to the 6 hole which is normally manned by Yadi. However, I think it presents some benefits worth considering and might utilize his skills more effectively.
First of all, this team doesn't run anyway and while not being a moneyball adherent I feel like on this team especially there's little use for speed at the top. TLR admits we don't have legitimate protection for Pujols so opening first base on a steal does us no good. The guys behind Yadi are going to put together the bulk of the team's extra base hits which limits the need for the 1 and 2 hitters to get a steal or extra base by themselves to generate runs. Pujols is an aware, aggressive baserunner he's by no means fast, so it's not like your in danger of him overrunning Yadi. Yadi has a solid OBP of 355 which is better than anyone else besides Skip and the RBI guys. Bottom line in my mind is getting guys on base in front of #5 and Yadi gets on base. He has great bat control which allows him to go the other way. He rarely strikes out. He has 103 hits and only 19 XBH. Combined with his lack of speed it makes him a poor choice in the 6 hole because the guys behind him are going to need help generating runs - ie. someone who can steal a base or go 1st to 3rd - which he can't do. He doesn't generate any self-contained runs with occasional dingers and the problem with the lack of speed in hitting in front of Pujols exists with him in the 6 hole but is compounded by the fact that there are no run producers behind him. The GIDP's from Pujols are more an issue of Pujols' lack of speed and because he hits the ball so hard the lead runner is going to be forced out regardless.
During and after tonight's game I just felt that Yadi would have given us a great chance to break that inning and the game open with a great approach and a great at bat. Furthermore I think it's at least worth experimenting with Yadi in the 2 hole, given that TLR experiments with so many different lineups. It would deepen the lineup and put a legitimate run producer - Ankiel or Mather - in the 6 hole to keep us from having to get our runs out of the top 5.
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When I saw your title
I was ready to dismiss it immediately but you actually made a pretty good case. I still disagree, but your post was thoughtfully done.
Reasons I disagree—first of all, we have 4 players w/ higher OBP’s than Yadi. Calling them “Skip and the RBI guys” seems to dismiss the fact that it’s half of our regular lineup. And Ankiel’s close, Miles is close, and Mather is improving. Add to that that Yadi’s OBP will probably never get higher than .355. He’s limited offensively and, as such, doesn’t really belong at the top of the lineup.
Your points about needing speed at the bottom of the lineup were well-founded and a good argument against Yadi in the 6 hole, but his lack of speed is the other problem w/ him in the 2 hole. The worst thing we can have happen w/ Albert on deck is for the #2 hitter to hit into a DP. He puts the ball in play a tlot, yes, but w/ a runner on first, a DP is worse than a K. Yadi’s grounded into 16 DP’s this year in 331 AB’s—by far the highest rate on the team. We’ll score more runs w/ runners on for Pujols and Yadi’s problem of hitting into DP’s will likely do more harm than good.
When I saw his title
I went ‘EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW’
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 3, 2008 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought "BAD DOG!!!"
But I’m probably the only one with a dog named Yadi.
My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.
I don't have a dog,
but if I did he’d be named Yadi. I decided this sometime shortly after the 06 nlcs. Unfortunately, the landlord doesn’t allow pets, so I’ll have to wait.
I have a dog named Mojo
which is short for Molina Joseph.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometime it rains.
I'm a recent member and while I figured it may have been brough up before, I wasn't sure.
Sorry if it’s dredging a dead horse.
I wasn’t dismissing the fact that the RBI guys have higher OBP’s thatn Yadi, I just feel that the most effective lineup construction is going to keep them in RBI spots. The roster at present would require Pujols in the 3 hole with two of Ludwick, Glaus, Ankiel in the 4 and 5 spots. That leaves one of the others to hit either 2 or 6. If it’s Ankiel, then Yadi’s OBP is slightly higher. In spite of the fact that Miles is playing well, the fact is that he is well over is head and all his peripherals make this clear. In addition, I don’t consider him an everyday player (although I think he is our best option for the bulk of time at 2nd). Miles is having a career year offensively and while you could say the same about Yadi and that his OBP will never get higher, catchers are advertised for being slow to develop as offensive players and this couild be the case for Yadi. Certain things are clear about Yadi – limited batspeed meaning limited power, exceptional bat control, good plate discipline. He may never hit .300 again or he may hit 300 the rest of his career. Miles is a known quantity.
I totally agree that the DP’s are a problem. However it might ‘force’ TLR to be more agressive on the bases with the leadoff hitter. I know Skip doesn’t have great speed, but Barton could be a base stealer (while probably not offering the same OBP) and you can definitely hit and run more. A lot more. The option is brought up a lot (relative term) when Yadi is up at the bottom of the order. But it sucks because if it works you’ve got 1st and 3rd with Kennedy and the pitcher coming up. 1st and 3rd with Pujols coming up is mouth watering. Obviously the hit and run opens up the IBB as well if you get a IF ground ball and you successfully get out of the force, but we’re already addressing a flawed lineup so there’s no perfect solution. 1st and 2nd, 1 out with Ludwick, Glaus and Ankiel has to generate big innings some of the time, right?
More than anything this lineup is just sooooooooooooo top heavy. the 6-9 spots are just black holes. Even though Yadi is solid in the 6 spot he is basically a singles hitter. His avg and slugging pct are both in the 300s – 308 and 389. He’s basically a singles hitter. Other players with an avgover 300 and slugging pct under 400 recently have been Juan Pierre, Grudz, Theriot and Ichiro. My main concern is creating depth to the lineup and providing hope for something more than we have right now.
As far as the L/R splits Yadi is at respectable 294/329/346 against righties. He doesnt walk as much against righties, but if you’re giving him a defined role – get on base and advance runners which seems to suit his skills with the bat, as opposed to drving in runs which does not – maybe he can improve the OBP.
I would go so far to agree with you
if as you pointed out , Yadi wasn’t so slow. Heck, Yadi would fit in as well as some of the leadoff hitters we have had this year if he wasn’t so slow. You would have to think his OBP would be at least 10-20 points higher if he had any speed whatsoever.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
if good Old Bud would go ahead & let Yadda run with a jet pack
his speed issues would be solved forevar.
i wonder what’s taking the approval process so long?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
hmm
i don’t believe the rules actually mention anything about jet packs
lot of discussion on this
in a previous diary. Can’t believe that was late May/June; this season has flown by.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
Good post, but you are probably going to get hammered.
Some of us have brought up this topic before (as SleepyCA points out), and it always results in the same poo-pooing. There are definitely distinct disadvantages to having such a slow baserunner with no power in that hole. I think you made your points well, but I know the overwhelming majority response will be that you are crazy for even thinking it.
I agree with your discussion on Mather in the 2 hole. I think it was evident that the kid is a rookie. His OBP is climbing, and I think it clearly benefits him to bat in front of Pujols (I know. I know. Protection is a myth … yadda yadda yadda); but in situations like last night you need a “professional hitter.” A guy that knows how to handle the bat in those kind of situations and understands that there is more to hitting than swing-hard-in-case-you-hit-something. I don’t think Mather has learned that. I know Chris Duncan hasn’t learned that. Apparently Rick Ankiel hasn’t learned that. I think you are spot on by identifying Yadi as one of the hitters on the team that does understand that concept.
I don’t know if that qualifies him as the #2 hitter, but I have definitely presented that case myself. On this team, this year, they are hurting for enough experienced hitters that understand situational hitting. This would be a good time to discuss whether or not Hal McRae is teaching that, or if LaRussa is stressing that to his players and coaches.
Nice work
but this is just a bad idea. Especially against RHPs which we see approximately 2/3 of the time.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
what about
putting yadi in the nine-hole?
skip
2B
pujols
lud
glaus
ank
SS
P
yadi
I would think that with his relatively high OBP and inability to hit for extra bases, he is a perfect candidate for the first of the double leadoff men. this solves the GIDP problem because 1) the P won’t be on base that much anyway and 2) even if he does it either leaves the next inning to start with the top of your order or presents skip with 2 out. this also removes the possiblity of having one of our collection of atrocious MIFs bat as the first leadoff hitter.
At least he's better than Esteban Yan.
call me crazy
but I kinda like that idea. You have bright side to Yadi’s GIDP woes, it at least gives the pitcher a breather from having to run the bases.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
2B ...
batting 2nd only works if its miles
"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 3, 2008 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I like this.
It should help the OBP at the SS position, as you would think Ryan/Izturis can sit back and BB when the other team wants to get to the pitcher. I guess you could switch 2B to the leadoff and put Mather in the 2 hole against LHP. Kennedy hasn’t been great, but he was doing pretty well in the 2 hole (.378/.425/.541 per B-R). It allows Molina some buffer between him and the XBHs.
IMO, good call, jacksonian.
If looper or wainwright
are starting they likely would rather face the SS
"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Aug 3, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem is
how do you make LaRussa think it was his idea first?
Kidding aside, Ned Yost batted his catcher 9th when the Brewers were batting the pitcher 8th earlier in the season.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometime it rains.
the problem with Yadi in the 9 spot
is that i feel it underutilizes one of the better hitters in our lineup by severely limiting his AB’s. Do you want Kennedy, Ryan or Miles getting an extra AB every game?
Optimal Lineup
I am basing this solely on how well they have done in that spot this season.
Yadi
batting 6th – .325/.378/.397
batting 7th – .285/.321/.382
Pujols
batting 3rd – .344/.453/.594
Miles
batting 2nd – .362/.385/.449
batting 7th – .333/.407/.479
batting 9th – .257/.308/.257
Kennedy
batting 2nd – .395/.435/.535
batting 6th – under .500 OPS
batting 7th – .256/.323/.291
batting 9th – .355/.394/.419
Izturis
batting 1st – .200/.294/.200
batting 7th – .293/.356/.317
batting 9th – .225/.292/.291
Glaus
batting 4th – .235/.315/.367
batting 5th – .282/.378/.525
Ludwick
batting 2nd – .312/.372/.675
batting 3rd – .192/.283/.308
batting 4th – .321/.403/.679
batting 5th – .348/.392/.609
Ankiel
batting 2nd – .246/.307/.478
batting 4th – .282/.355/.885
batting 5th – .314/.368/.571
batting 6th – .286/.348/.429
Schumaker
batting 1st – .311/.376/.423
My order looks like this:
Schumaker – .311/.376/.423
Glaus – hasn’t been used here
Pujols – .344/.453/.594
Ludwick – .321/.403/.679
Ankiel – .314/.368/.571
Yadi – .325/.378/.397
Izturis – .293/.356/.317
Pitcher
Kennedy – .355/.394/.419
I simply plug in Miles in the 2, 7, or 9 hole when those players need a break, Mather in the 1 hole against lefties and in the 4/5 hole when those two need a break, LaRue in the 6 hole whenever Yadi needs a break. Felipe Lopez will have to tear the cover off of the ball to play. Stavinoha is the PH, then.
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