Friday Miscellany
by azruavatar on Aug 22, 2008 7:00 AM EDT
Email
Print200 innings seems to be a favorite line in the sand for evaluating the durability of a starting pitcher. One thing the Cardinals have shown a plethora of this season is pitchers who are on the cusp of being ready for the majors. Replacement level guys like Mitchell Boggs or Mike Parisi as well as someone like Brad Thompson who seems capable of making 6-8 effective spot starts a year. One way to leverage a situation like this, as I alluded to yesterday in the comments, is to sign a very dominant pitcher like AJ Burnett who probably isn't going to give you more than 160-180 innings.
What's the break even point for Burnett versus someone like Kyle Lohse who may be better able to give you 180-200 innings but with an inferior run prevention ability. To be clear, I'm not looking to layout true talent levels for any of the pitchers I've named rather to see what prices would be equivalent factoring in some innings from another pitcher. Let's assume Burnett is good for 160 innings with a FIP of 3.75. To supplement those 40 innings, let's use Brad Thompson with a FIP of 5.00. So over 200 innings, those two players will allow around 89 runs or a FIP of about 4.00. For his career, Lohse has a FIP around 4.50 although this season it's currently below 4.00 although recent outings might indicate he's tapering back toward his career numbers.
So if those assumptions are accurate, Lohse would allow around 10 more runs than our Burnett-Thompson hybrid, i.e. he's about 1 win worse. On the free agent market, a win is worth around 4-5M dollars a year. That means that if the difference between Lohse for a season and Burnett-Thompson for a season is less than 4M, it's probably better to buy the Burnett-Thompson hybrid. The beauty of this for the Cardinals is that the salary difference is almost exclusively in the FA contracts since their replacement level arms are free.
There's some ancillary arguments to be had about the costs of using 2 roster spots when you could get similar production from 1 and the potential to luck into healthy season from a pitcher like Burnett (who would then be closer to 2 wins better than Lohse), but there's a real value to be weighed on limited dominance versus extended sufficiency.
*****************************
Historical baseball guru is not a title I would ever attribute to myself. I'm not enamored of baseball's history or past players beyond using them as comps for prospects or other current individuals. "Greatest of _____ era" arguments inevitably bore me to tears. Just not an area that's ever piqued my curiosity.
That said, it seems to me that we've seen a pretty significant change in the last week. The Cardinals are, for all intents and purposes, now closing the book on the Izzy era and stepping bravely into the Chris Perez era. Perez should have a nostalgic streak for a while as his proclivity for walking batters may be eerily reminiscent of our previous closer over the last 7 years. Baseball in general seems to be gradually gettting past the idea that closers need to be a grizzled veteran as players such as Bobby Jenks, Huston Street and Jonathan Papelbon grow in number.
It would be an unmitigated mistake to re-sign Izzy beyond this year for a variety of reasons. The Cardinals minor league system is ripe with RH relievers like Jason Motte, Mark Worrell, Fernando Salas, Franscisco Samuel, etc., etc. It's also a huge risk that Izzy could become a veteran hero of TLR despite wanning talent crippled by injury. We've seen the requirements needed to "baby" an older arm like Russ Springer and it can, at times, leave the team with a psuedo-depleted bullpen. Izzy did tremendous things for the Cardinals but it's time for a different approach to the pen.
Kelvin Jimenez for closer, anyone?
*****************************
Adam Wainwright is headed into a starters role -- thank the stars. He was surprisingly vocal about his desire to start during the PR debacle that the front office created with their inability to make a decision or figure out who the decision maker really is (a seemingly ongoing problem for this team). It's often interesting to me to see how fans will react to players that voice their own opinions about what their role should be. Sometimes those players can be critized for "whining" while other times we laud their honesty. I suspect that the reaction is often tailored by what each fan thinks the proper question is to the answer; I'm much more likely to praise someone that agrees with me.
In a more general sense, I think the need to keep core, critical players pleased is underrated. It's often met with derisive "if so-and-so is gonna whine, I don't even want them on my team" comments that, while understandable, don't seem realistic to me. We've seen what schisms between players and management can do to the Cardinals in the Scott Rolen incident and while we've (probably) come out on top in that case, it still isn't a road I'd like to tread. Rolen left Philly after similar problems and I'm sure they would have liked his peak years of offense just fine.
It's not a matter of coddling players necessarily. I'm the first person to attempt to strip as much humanity from the game as possible but even I'll acknowledge that there's a tipping point. An interesting case study will be Rick Ankiel, whom the club has done a great deal for, and his looming free agency. There's an element of scratching each others backs that's not to be underestimated when it comes time to meet at the negotiating table. It's one thing to yank a player like Brad Thompson between the minors and majors who, while useful, is hardly irreplacable as a player but Adam Wainwright is a core part of the team for the next 4-5 years. Keeping players like Wainwright, Albert Pujols, Chris Carpenter and perhaps even Colby Rasmus happy to be a part of the St. Louis Cardinals can pay monetary dividends down the road.
*****************************
Whatever fool put together our schedule with 4 offdays in 15 days and 2 in 4 days, should be fired.
*****************************
Have a happy Friday. Braves vs. Cardinals @ 7:15CDT tonight.
229 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Whatever fool put together our schedule with 4 offdays in 15 days and 2 in 4 days, should be fired.
No kidding. This year’s schedule has been ridiculous.
Blame the HAL 9000 model for the scheduling...
and he also asks the question many VEBers ask frequently:
“What are you doing, Dave?”
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Dave's not here man.
I wonder which artificial intelligence is more advanced, HAL of azruavater?
I’m the first person to attempt to strip as much humanity from the game as possible but even I’ll acknowledge that there’s a tipping point.
I guess AZ is at least more user friendly.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Aug 22, 2008 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
It's the Cubs conspiracy
Don’t you know that HAL was programmed in Urbana, IL, which is Cub’s territory?
:)
Dave
Nonsense!
Urbana’s my territory. And about 50-50 Cards/Cubs once you get off campus.
As an aside, one of my profs built a singing speech synthesizer (working on prosody) while she was at Bell-Labs before it fell apart (the labs, not the synthesizer). When she got here, she gave a demo of it, having it sing Daisy for us. It was pretty neat-o.
interesting
when he was an undergraduate in the early 70’s, my dad wrote a program that made one of their printers “sing” the tune of also sprach zarathustra… or rather, the program caused its clunky printer parts to make noises that produced an entertaining facsimile thereof.
anyway, i think we can all agree that the scheduling problems can only be attributable to human error.
so should the humans have over-rided the computer schedule?
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
"Have over-rided?"
I think the humans might need more work on their English.
I think up until a few years ago, the schedules were assembled by a husband and wife team. And now they’ve turned it over to a computer…what could possibly go wrong?!?
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Amazing lack of rainouts
Opening day, made up the next day and then the game I tried to see in DC made up the next day also. Complete opposite of last year. Lousy from the fans perspective, probably enjoyable for the players to have a break before the stretch run, which starts tonight!!!!
but just think if carp and AW were healthy
and we could go to a 4-man rotation of carp/welle/AW/lohse for this stretch run. It looked really, really favorable to us early on.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
Waino on a pitch count
It seems Wagonmaker is on an 80 pitch count tonight, Pineiro will be his “back up” long man tonight. Makes it pretty obvious who lost their rotation spot ;)
1st point in the post
I, for one, don’t think anyone will disagree with that argument. The argument that people will have with what you have said is this: AJ Burnett is just as likely to give you 40 innings of 3.75 FIP ball, wherein Thompson will have to fill in at 5.00 FIP ball. This means that, instead, you are looking at a pitcher’s spot in the rotation giving you numbers higher than Lohse’s for a lot more money.
but
who’d you rather have starting game 3 of a playoff series, burnett ot lohse? the real reason to pay extra for a burnett-thompson pair and the issues that surround such a plan during the season is to win in the playoffs. quality pitching is way more important than durability at that point.
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
This schedule could be the best thing for us
Let everybody get some rest. Hopefully the Cubs and Brewers lose and we make up some free games, then we come back fresh with a new found fire and play .700 ball to close out the season while destroying all meager teams in our wake. Envision the stellar preformance we are about to see when rosters expand and the bullpen is chock full of more young power arms hanging K’s like a young child so eagerly puts decorations on a christmas tree. Motte and his blazing fastball breaking bats into toothpicks when some poor soul is lucky enough to put wood on the ball. PJ Walters and the masterpieces he paints on the corners. Mark Worrell and his Red October delivery being untrackable, unfathomable, and undermining the concentration of the most trained eyes. The uninhibited power of the reborn Josh Phelps will have children hiding in fear as the crack the bat makes the stitches unfurel out of the ball as it travels across the mighty Mississippi to land all but unraveled in a cornfield in Illinios. Yes my friends just sit back and wait for the fireworks as our fearless leader opens the throttle and screams damn the torpedos as we take down all infidels who dare stand in our way.
Call ups
LOL
DJ if you’re relying on the minor league call ups to put the Cardinals on there back and carry us. Well I’ll see you in Jupiter in March.
Can I have a drink Stlfan?
Phelps
will improve our bench by quite a bit. I expect the Cardinals will benefit by far the most from expanded rosters out of the top three teams in our division, between bats like Phelps’ and Razzle’s and the added bullpen depth.
We’re close enough that every edge counts.
that is if rasmus can play
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Ya'll see what I have to deal with
This is the severe lack of optimism that can crush this stretch run. It can happen, it will happen, and the little birds will baffle the the infidels that are attempting to keep this ultimate goal of ours dangling just out of reach. It’s time to get the ladder set up in the middle of the ring, grab our trophy and put the smack down on the over rated self imploding teams that are ever so slighty just out of our reach at the present moment. Let’s get it on!!!!!!!!!!
"red october delivery"
i like it. your optimistic post has me humming the soviet national and naval anthems and thinking of glorious victory. i’m not a fan of communism but man did the soviets have some awesome music.
remember that cool thing you wrote...?
that was awesome
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Aug 22, 2008 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow...
Hadley? Hadley is that you?
I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck
Awesome
I didn’t read the words “Intriguing” or “Ultimately” so I am left to believe it is someone else.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 22, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
_Have a happy Friday. Braves vs. Cardinals @ 7:15CDT tonight._
You mean we play tonight?!?!?! Yippee!!
I did a look at this nearly 1 month ago to the day
See this thread
Also, look at the comment below entitled “Additional Information to Original Post.”
Good points about Burnett
while we may not be in a position to have one of our young guys take over for 180 innings next year, they certainly will be able to fill in for 40, if not more. Certainly, signing Burnett (assuming he opts out) would make more sense than signing Kyle Lohse. This assumes the monetary difference you suggested AND, most importantly, that Burnett’s contract will be no longer than Lohse’s. Teams run into trouble w/ contracts more often b/c of their length and not the financial terms attached.
Also…spot on w/ the Cards’ treatment of Wainwright. It’s been miserable during this whole Hamlet routine they’ve been putting him through. They certainly wouldn’t have done that w/ Pujols — will he play 3B, 1B, LF…whatever. They wouldn’t have done it w/ Carp. You notice that there’s never been any indication from the organization that Carp might see time in the pen. Why is that?
And, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, it’s going to make sense to see what Ankiel could bring back in a trade this offseason. I love Ankiel just as everyone else does but he’s 1 year away from free agency and could have a lot of value to a team needing a young SS. It’ll be unpopular and take some stones to pull off, but it’s an option that the team should at least look into.
As I said below....
Why Burnett and not Dempster? Dempster’s been better this year, will probably cost the same amount, goes deep into games, and doesn’t have a long, sordid injury history following him around either. I don’t think that the Cubs can afford to sign him to a 4 year $60 million contract, but I’d much rather pay him that kind of swag than someone like Burnett, assuming he even opts out.
I agree on Ankiel, although I think that some effort needs to be made to try and extend him to a club friendly contract this offseason. If no in-roads can be made there than I think it’s in the team’s best interest to shop him around to see what other teams would give up to get him. He is a fan favorite, but how many casual fans have seen or heard of Colby Rasmus, who has a chance to be a fan favorite for years to come in St. Louis?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Hamlet
They certainly wouldn’t have done that w/ Pujols — will he play 3B, 1B, LF…whatever.
They did just that at a similar point in Albert’s career. His rookie year, Pujols was TLR’s utility knife, getting over 100 ABs at third base, first base, left and right fied. In his second season, he was installed in left field (to make room for Tino Martinez at first base), where he got 376 ABs. But, he had 136 ABs at third base and another 66 ABs at first base. His third year, he was strictly a first baseman or left fielder, receiving 156 ABs at first and 424 ABs as a left fielder. Then, after dumping Tino on Tampa and eating his salary, Pujols was permanently installed at first base where he continues to reign supreme today.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Just in case anyone has forgotten
that little LF experiment is how AP hurt his elbow. Just another reason to dislike Tino Martinez.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
It's been brought up here before
But, imagine if the Cards had shifted Pujols to first and signed Reggie Sanders during that offseason instead of Tino Martinez.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i thought albert hurt his elbow in 2003?
that’s what I gathered from “3 nights in august”, but I can’t remember the details.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
He did
and he was in the outfield that year, I am not sure if it was the outfield that hurt it (I can’t recall the entire thing) just that he was limited to pinch hitting for a few games before TLR finally risked it and put him back in the field with the demand that he couldn’t throw in, he had to roll the ball back in or flip it to Edmonds type of thing
but
that was several years ago. they wouldn’t do that now. Pujols and Wainwright are what Edmonds and Rolen were to the team 5-6 years ago. They wouldn’t have bounced Edmonds all around the OF, though he did play a game or 2 every now and then at 1B. Pujols didn’t mean as much to the team then as he and Wainwright do today.
Pujols then equals Wainwright now
I agree with you that Pujols and Wainwright are the most valuable players on our club right now. I guess I’m arguing more from a TLR perspective. Wainwright is in his third year with the club, second as a starting pitcher. In 2001, Pujols batted all over the order, but primarily in the #4 and #5 slots. In 2002 (the year we acquired Rolen in August), he split between batting #3 and #4, with the majority of his ABs coming in the #4 slot. In 2003 (Rolen’s first full year), he had 529 ABs in the #3 slot. Ever since then, he has been the three-hole hitter. By contrast, Rolen has been shifted back-and-forth between #4 and #5 in the lineup and, really, is only a third baseman (and justifiably so).
I see Wainwright now as similar in TLR’s eyes as Pujols back at the beginning. He will go where we need him because he is a gamer. I agree with you, HC, that he should have reached a position of starter, starter, and only starter. Once he has a Carp-type of season, I’d wager he’ll reach that level in TLR’s view.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Word on Dempster is
that he’s thick with Hendry. I don’t think he’s going anywhere.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 22, 2008 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
he’s already stated that he wants to stay in Chicago.
Also, isn’t he exactly what this team should stay away from? He’s coming off a career year, one that is completely out of left field, and is 31 years old. Forgive me for scratching my head every time someone brings his name up. He’s no better than Kyle Lohse and probably won’t be as good as Lohse next year or the next 3 years.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Ditto
I don’t see Dempster going anywhere. He seems willing to work with the Cubs. They only have a free agents leaving this year so Dempster has to be a priority for them.
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 22, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
There does need to be effort. Everyone proclaims Boras as the main reason why Rick won’t be easy to work with, but frankly from the offseason last winter to the draft. Boras’ clout has gone way down.
Rick is a marketing figure within himself, he’s not a defensive liability. His bat is still improving, and will need to improve further. He’s a fan base favorite, and should be with the story and the field play he gives. His situation is unique though, St. Louis media and fans generally protect him from a lot of the pressures of being a starter on the team. It’s clear Rick needs that.
if I were the Cards I’d look at trying to sign him to a club friendly contract with incentives to make it a Rick friendly one should he pull through.
And if you’re going to sell high on an OF to start making room, I don’t know if you can say that you’d be selling high on Rick.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not worried about Boras, particularly
Ankiel, if he keeps playing well, is going to get paid a lot of money after next season. It’ll be his only chance in his career to make tons of money and play wherever he wants. He plays a premier position — CF — so there will be suitors. I’d imagine 4-5 years at $12 M per, if he keeps playing well. He’ll be 30 next July so we’re talking about Rick’s age 31-34 or 35 seasons at $12 M per season. Can we afford that? Maybe. Do we want to? Maybe not. Would we have done that for Torii Hunter? Unquestionably, no. So why Rick? Yes, we love him. I get that but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a prudent business decision particularly when you have a CF sitting there waiting to take his place for a MUCH lower salary.
Add in the fact that he would likely have a great deal of trade value should we shop him and it’s something to consider. How else are we going to get a good, young SS? Ludwick’s another option but trading Ankiel may be the way to go.
Finally, I just cannot agree with the many people who say that Rick will sign a “club-friendly contract” just b/c we stuck by him all those years. Maybe but Boras is his agent for a reason. He could have dumped Boras and still might but if he doesn’t, it’s b/c he wants to test the market. And who could blame him? As I said, this will be his only opportunity his entire baseball career. I would test the market to see who wants me and what I’m worth. I think he’ll be worth more than the 2 draft picks he’ll bring back should he go somewhere else.
Also
We already have another decent (Schu) and one possibly great (CRaz) CF’s. We are really not going to need to pay him for his defense. It’s not a bad situation to be in, surplus CF’s, looking to the future at LF Lud CF Raz RF Ank (that arm in RF…BOOM) for the next four years, but it’s not entirely realistic to pay for those peak years.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
Truthfully every guy you could consider...
for the OF next year except for Duncan can play a capable CF…add Mather, Ludwick, and Jay to your list. It is a great position to be in, and hopefully we can turn one or two of these guys into one or two Major League caliber MIF.
Read the fanpost from Raysrule07…it would be great to get something done there.
by cardzfanbub on Aug 22, 2008 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Boras
seems to be losing his luster, IMO. When you have one of the premier names in the game (i.e. A-Rod) basically having to renegotiate part of his contact himself, you know something is note quite the same with Boras.
read the issues he had in the draft
instead of getting what he wanted, he was quoted the next day whining about the fact that the deadline is at midnight and how it has a bias towards the teams.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Ankiel and success outside of STL
Another aspect of whether Ank would sign a “club-friendly” deal is that he may not want to play in some of the more media intensive environments. I couldn’t see Rick succeeding or enjoying himself in NY, Boston, Philly, Chicago. He has a huge amount of history and the media in many towns will rehash the bad when struggles occur, which they will with Ankiel.
The free agent market becomes limited when the player rules out (privately not publicly) certain markets. Start with 30 CF positions, rule out the ones with internally developed talent, cross off the nasty media markets, eliminate the small market clubs and the list of possible relocations dwindles pretty fast.
I’m all for seeing what he would like to buy out two – three years of free agency, but I would let trade him (or let him walk) if a contract can’t be worked out before next year’s trading deadline.
I'm guessing if Ankiel goes anywhere
it’ll be one of the Florida teams
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
I forgot about how cheap they are. I just know that he lives there and likes to fish in the ocean
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I could see...
Kansas City taking a bid at Ankiel. They need a power bat in the OF. Guillen hasn’t turned out to be what they had hoped…he’s just been a very expensive Emil Brown, whom they let go. DeJesus is a CF, but plays a good corner OF. Gathright and Teahen are both good 4th OFers, but not much more.
You been reading Pos?
Love his Brown/Guillen watch.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 22, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
his most recent post includes this gem:
I can, even in my Olympic stupor, tell you about the time Ken Harvey got hit in the back with a relay throw, the time two outfielders started jogging back to the dugout while a pop-up dropped behind them, the time Desi Relaford literally fell off first base, the time the Royals brought in a professional softball pitcher, the time an outfielder ran to the wall and climbed only to watch a fly ball bounce on the warning track in front of him, the time a an outfielder had a pop up hit him in the face when he wasn’t wearing sunglasses then wore sunglasses on the plane ride home, the time Tony Pena Sr. jumped into the shower with his clothes on to inspire the team, the time Tony Muser talked about how the Royals needed to be drinking tequila, the time Buddy Bell batted someone out of order, the time Neifi refused to go into a game and then said he was joking, the time the Royals decided to do away with their tradition of wearing Negro Leagues uniforms for a game because they didn’t want to pay for them … I’m telling you I could go on like this all day and all night and all the next day.
Read it all here.
"I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order. Like they should be."
Ankiel isn't going anywhere if TLR has anything to say
Rick will be a lifetime Cardinal and I expect we will see a big long term contract for him (8 years) to keep him around. he’s one of a kind. He loves it here and i think the Redbirds feel like they owe him for ruining his pitching career. Plus, he still has huge upside.
honestly — can anyone imagine Ankiel as anything but a Cardinal. He is deeply linked to the fan base here.
Maybe, but...
….8 years? For a guy that has less than 650 career at-bats? And don’t forget – LaRussa is here through 2009 at the absolute latest.
And yes, I can imagine him as something other than a Cardinal. To me he’s still a novelty.
8 years?!
I’d puke in my shoes if Mo was stupid enough to do that. We may see who runs this team — Mo or Tony — w/ the decisions that are made about Ankiel.
Now,
Tony may carry a lot on his shoulders when it comes to what happened to Rick, that’s fairly documented as well. He may wish Rick could remain a Cardinal for some time to come. Rick, may, be part of the reason why Tony is still around, for better or worse.
However, there’s no way in hell that Tony would ever think of a 8 year deal for Rick, let alone Mo.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
You see
I see your arguments and I get them. However, I see them being a better fit for Ludwick, not Ank.
Rick not only has physical durability concerns, but mental ones. His bat is developing and is still considered a work in progress. Ryan’s bat hasn’t been the big question mark all in all, it’s been his health.
I don’t think Rick would command that much money. I just don’t. Of course if we sit there and offer 3mil he’ll balk and walk, but I don’t think we’ll do that either. He has marketability, he’s not a fielding liability, and his bat may equate to a few great years.
Every other manager/gm/owner has to and will look at the entire package with Rick, will he hold up to a market that likes to relive his past stories over and over again. Every success is a reliving of a pitcher that once was, every failure is a pitcher that once was. Here Rick can be Rick, without much past bias.
Every other manager/gm/owner has to consider his physical durability as well. Luddy has the same issues in this department, but didn’t do a mid-career position shift. Luddy’s bat, without question, is more developed.
As far as the “good young SS” comment, well. I think if we’re looking at selling high compared to ceilings of the players in the OF, we have to look at all. Is Luddy’s peak on value at its highest now? You could make the argument.
What about Skip? When you consider peak and ceiling in terms of trade stock, could his go any higher? I don’t know how much higher it could go, but I do have an idea how much it could drop. Even Mather’s value could be considered high at the moment as there could be a lot of “given 400-500 AB, what could he do?”.
I’m all for a “young, good SS”, but how many of those are around, and.. avail.. for Rick even.
Secondly, the minors have a few “young SS” that aren’t developed yet. I see us getting a veteran SS to get us by for a couple/3 years and then seeing where we are.
And to address the last paragraph. I don’t think that way, personally. I think he’ll be termed a fair contract, as a fan I think that he should get enough incentives to make it into an overpaid one should he hit those marks. But I think that we offer him something most other clubs won’t. A market that believes in him, without making him relive his past on a day in day out basis.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Ludwick's another option
but he’s a year older than Rick — he’ll be 31 this time next year — which should make him slightly less marketable. But he’s also 3-4 years away from free agency now, as opposed to Rick’s 1. All things considered, it may make more sense to keep Ludwick, and his relatively low salary, and trade Rick rather than extending Ankiel at, let’s say, $10 M per year. However, I agree that we should explore trade options w/ both but I’d hate to trade Ludwick this offseason and lose Ankiel to free agency next offseason. I’d rather trade Rick this offseason.
I agree with your assessment
While Ank may have more short- to intermediate-term upside, Ludwick has been more consistent and at a higher level of play (currently). I’d be happy if both stay, but if one must leave the Cards, then I hope it’s Ank instead of Ludwick, preferably in trade to get a decent MI.
I don’t know. I see your points, generally I do.
Ludwick with his cost controlled nature allows us to sit at the table in just about any reasonable trade talk.
We want _, Ludwick is on the table, we know you need a corner OF. Let’s talk.
If you were any of the 29 other GMs you would listen, easily. Hell, I would.
We’re not the only team searching for top flight MI, a lot of teams are. Either due to poor production, decline, or needing to add offense because of locked contracts at other positions. MI is going to be a commodity that is going to be overpriced this year.
Ludwick may start and have some gain in those talks. I don’t know if Rick will. I think he’s more of a liability towards other teams due to physical and mental issues. They’re all well documented.
Would you take Rick at 7/8 per for three years and a 12 mil option year on the fourth?
I don’t think it would be worse than that, and I can’t see Ank removing the Cardinals from consideration or thinking that he’s getting screwed on 3 million less than market rate. Matter in fact, I see that as a damn good deal.
I don’t want either to walk, and if Rick gets offered something and turns it down to walk, that’s on him. We should offer this offseason at a club rate and see where he is. But after that it should be free game.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
ah but
rick ankiel is a better hitter than hunter in most areas.
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Coming to Terms
I am starting to realize how much money a CFer that could post great power numbers, Good Glove, and a premier arm can fetch. He is going to get $12 million a year. You think the Angels would trade Matthews Jr for Ankiel right now? Someone is always dumb enough to cough up a shit ton of money for someone. Especially someone that plays a tough position such as CF.
I love Ankiel but we need to be tough minded. We need a MIFer in the worst way and we have surplus in the outfield.
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 22, 2008 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
"I am starting to realize how much money a CFer that could post great power numbers, Good Glove, and a premier arm can fetch. "
add in durability concerns (physical and mental) and a very raw and undisciplined bat.
Matthews Jr for Ankiel
Why would they?
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
thank you
the angels wouldnt let the offer leave Mo’s mouth before they said yes, they are looking to dump GMJ. Horrible contract for a good glove no bat CF. Why would we want GMJ when we need infield help. talk brandon wood plus another prospect and you have me interested
another reminder of why you don't give big contracts after ridiculous career years
just say to yourself; that is by far the best he’s ever going to be, and he’ll probably never be that good with us."
wow
no comparison at all
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
“Why would they” – they being Cards front office.
should make sense with that clarification.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't proposing it as a trade idea
But trying to show what a mediocre player can pull on the FA market, 5 Years and $50. If Matthews can pull that and Hunter can pull 5 years/$90M than I think you have to assume that Ankiel can pull something between that.
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 22, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with what you're saying
in general, but I still contend that those numbers and scenario (career year, and the like) references Luddy a lot more than it does Rick.
Luddy will command some serious coin, and he should providing he stays healthy. Rick’s situation is a lot more volatile in my opinion.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
but Ludwick won't be a free agent
until after the 2011 season. Therefore, he won’t command THAT much money until 2011. Ankiel’s a free agent after 2009.
Ankiel said he isn't playing to get rich
He’s set up just fine from his pitching contract, apparently. Of course, he could change his mind very quickly when teams are throwing loads of cash at him, but I really wouldn’t be very surprised to see him take way less to play where he’s most comfortable.
which is my overall point
Boras or not, Rick isn’t going to run and play anywhere. In an odd sort of way, being on the Cards allows him a way to “hide” while doing what he loves to do.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
When do they trade him?
Now?
I may be off base a little here, but he’s a free agent, right? Arb eligible, right? So, are you wanting to sign him and then trade him or trade him before September?
For the record, I’m slightly confused and could be mis-interpreting the free agency thing.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
he's not a free agent
until after 2009
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
according to Cot's
he’s on a one year deal (avoided arbitration).
His whole service time screws me up and I get that I’m confused about this, but I just am having a hard time getting a grip on it for some reason today.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
it's because contracts and team control aren't aligned well with cots
cots only looks at the salary implications.
Ank is under team control until ‘10. However, he’s avail for arb, which is what cots portrays. He was paid in ’08 that salary to avoid that arb.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
So,
it all boils down to, they have to either offer arb or settle a contract that forgoes arbitration like they did this year?
Then, if they wanted to, they could obviously trade him. But doesn’t that reek of being underhanded? To sign a guy to a contract and then trade him? Couldn’t Rick reject the offer? And if he did sign the team friendly contract to avoid arbitration, I think that would be a bit of a PR mistake.
But, maybe I’m still not completely understanding. Maybe it’s the team control thing I’m really having a tough time with. What exactly does it mean? And I apologize for being dense today, but for some reason something clicked that just isn’t making sense to me.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I really don't think they'll trade him
and he will probably stay in St. Louis. he’s a draw for the fans.
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, you tend to offer a price so you know what you’re offering and don’t let the decision go to a third party. It also keeps the peace between the player and the front office.
The team still controls the contract (rights to the player), but they lose control on the cost of the player if it goes to arb. Most teams just offer a price to avoid arb and most players take it as it’s just a pay raise. When that doesn’t happen is when the player isn’t offered near enough compared to production. Ask Philly all about that.
Just like any player, barring any anti trade clauses they can trade a player. arbs or settlement before arbs is just to provide a buffer between league minimum and free agent market costs. but they don’t effect control of the player at all.
Rick could have rejected the offer, for sure. But by then he had very little AB and a new position and little experience therein. He may have lost money in the arb (though it doesn’t happen often).
He’ll be offered another amount, an extension on the contract, or go to arb at the end of this season too.
team control means that the team that got you took on your contract, the arb process is to allow cost adjustment as service time goes in. they can trade that contract just like any free agent bought contract.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks
thanks for being patient with me. I just needed a little clarification. I basically knew what was going on but something in the conversation made me think differently about it which brought up a little fuzzy area.
Thanks again.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
no worries
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Does the CBA
still allow a guy who is traded during a mult-year contract to demand a trade and/or become a free agent?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
that's one of the things that changed in the current CBA
players who signed contracts before this CBA was signed are grandfathered (IE, Scott Rolen), but players who sign after are not allowed to do that anymore.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
I was saying
(not sure if you’re responding to me — the thread’s gotten so long it’s hard to sort out) that the team should ask around about both Ankiel’s and Ludwick’s trade value this offseason. They are the 2 most valuable trade commodities we have that aren’t named Pujols, Wainwright or Rasmus. Shouldn’t try and trade him before September but this offseason. We need a good, young SS, right? Others have pointed out that they don’t grow on trees. This is why you’re going to have to give up something good in order to get one.
Why Ankiel? First, he’s 1 year away from free agency, as opposed to Ludwick’s 3. Second, he’ll have a lot of trade value, IMO. Third, I’m not as confident as most are that he’s going to take a home-town discount to sign w/ the Cards. I base this on the fact that he’s a Boras client. Say what you want about Boras having a bad year and clients ignoring him but people who hire Boras do so b/c they intend to get paid. Ankiel, I think, will be no exception. B/c of his age, Ankiel will be a top-notch free agent (assuming he plays well next year) exactly 1 time in his career. He’ll have 1 chance to make as much money as he can and play for whichever organization he wants. 1 chance and I think he’ll take advantage of it. Why wouldn’t he? Wouldn’t we all do the same if we only had 1 chance to do so?
I also am not sure that signing Rick to a 4-5 year deal when he’s 31 will be the best decision for the team. We have a CF, in the minors, ready to go (as soon as the leg heals). It’s not like we don’t have someone who’s ready to play. Will Rasmus be as good as Ankiel? I don’t know but it’s time to see what he can do and trading Ankiel or Ludwick MAY allow us to fill the SS hole that has become an absolute abyss.
I’m not advocating trading either just for the sake of doing so and, if we can’t get the good, young SS we need, we should hang on to the OF’s and make a decision about Ankiel’s free agency later. But I believe that trading Ankiel provides the team the best opportunity to get the SS we so desperately need.
I get that he’s a hero. I love the guy and, when many thought the team should give up, my thoughts were, “what harm does it do to see if he can play the OF?” But I think baseball organizations should make decisions w/ their heads rather than their hearts and, IMO, trading Rick this offseason MAY be the best approach for the organization.
Agree
Of course it all depends on how other teams value our guys, but thats the most likely place to look if you want to trade for a good middle infielder.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 22, 2008 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Now, we both get that there’s a load of assumptions in both of our discussion points, correct?
First there has to be a team, with a MI that we consider reasonable, who is either a vet with a couple/3 years of solid service ahead of him (so we can further develop our own talent, as we’re starting to do in th 3rd base department). The other option is a MI that is still under cost controlled years so we can have someone as a mainstay for a while. They also happen to need a CF/OF.
Keeping in mind it wouldn’t do us a bit of good to move Rick, Luddy or anyone for a one year fill in. We’ll be back in this same situation by ‘10 or ’11 (depending on when the trade is done, I’m assuming this offseason)
Secondly, it’s on the assumptions that there is a want for 4-5 year contract. That’s a heavy assumption in my opinion. I get that his age sends smoke signals of a final contract scenario. I just don’t know if he would push that hard. It also assumes that he’ll command that much money on the market. It also assumes that he wouldn’t take less to stay under the Arches. A place where he readily admits that he’s comfortable.
That’s a lot of things to align up.
So I’ll say this, which I think you may largely agree:
Rick should be offered, and put into a place where he knows that the contract table is open during this off season, there won’t be any consideration when it comes to trade talks to his situation during the ’09 season. If he wants to work with the club on a reasonable term (length and price), this winter is the time to do it.
Reasonable to me is 3/24 with a 4th year option. That’ll carry him through his development and peak at a reasonable cost.
I’m all for the idea that if Rick is the make or break piece to a badass MI grab, we should look into it. But we need to look at everything involved.
Skip’s value couldn’t really go much higher considering his ceiling. He can be “sold high”, providing that Colby is going to do what we hope him to do. Bat lead off and get on base.
Ludwick could become a power card to get something sorely needed. Even with his history injury wise, he’s under the cloud of selling high as well. His cost controlled years makes him low risk to other teams, thus being a huge trade chip.
Yes, we can enjoy that production for ourselves, if we’re for sure that the production we’re seeing can carry on until he hits the FA. I don’t know if it can. Ludwick can be replaced by Mather for all intent and purposes for next year, then the glut in the Minors can take care of it after that. Would we lose in production? Yes. But this is also hinged on gaining production from the MI.
Mather is a “what could be” trade chip. He’ll fill in nicely should we lose someone in the offseason, could be a chip in play for something midrange or a package deal, but allows us to send a signal that we have fill ins when it comes to dealing with agents. For all intents and purposes, Mather’s trade value could be near its high now, if the other team looks at the Minors as a sign. A year or two in the majors, possibly in a platoon could make that value deteriorate quite a bit.
If you remove all of the assumptions we both have around Rick and what he’s going to do, frankly all of the OF we have on roster have some type of trade value. It just depends if any other team sees that value as “better than average MI worthy”.
Which is a hard call, and I don’t know if Rick can get us that. Ludwick may.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
if we could sign him to a 3 year
$24 M contract, we should. I just don’t think he’d accept it. I think he’ll be worth much more, assuming next year is as good as this season has been. I have absolutely no problem offering him a contract like that this offseason, provided there is the belief that he won’t find it insulting. It strikes me as being very low but maybe he’ll see this as an opportunity to grab that type of contract while it’s available, w/o risking a bad or injury-plagued season.
I do assume he’ll want a 4-5 year contract. Almost all players do, particularly those in their 30’s. I’d be stunned if he didn’t want a contract like that. I also think he’ll be worth about $12 M on the market (per season). I am assuming that. Neither assumption is much of a stretch. Of course, all this is predicated on the belief that he’ll be as good or better next year. If he’s not, for whatever reason, all bets are off.
Am I assuming that he won’t take less to stay in St. Louis? Not necessarily but I’m certainly not going to assume that he will take less to stay in St. Louis. He may be willing to take less, but not that much less. If another team offers 4 years and $48 M, 3 and $24 won’t do it; 3 and $30M won’t do it. In fact, I think we’d have to at least match in # of years and come close in $. The other thing to consider also, as I already said, is whether or not we want to make that type of commitment to a 30-something CF. 3 and $24, I’d do. 4 and $48? I’m not so sure.
Also
and maybe I didn’t make it clear — I wouldn’t even consider trading Rick for a 1 year SS. It would have to be for a guy who’d be under the team’s control for at least 3 years. Maybe one w/ little to no experience and is ready (and very good) or one w/ a couple years experience. At some point I’ll look around and see what SS’s I’d consider but no to Khalil Greene and no to some 30-something vet who’ll be a free agent in a year or two. Reid Brignac is one I’d consider, though I doubt the Rays would.
yeah, khalil greene has actually been worse than izturis offensively
couple that with his season-ending self-inflicted injury, and we should be able to pick him up for the price of his contract if we were willing to assume it. He’s paid $6.5M next season and will have to really bounce back to be worth it.
To trade a guy like ankiel we’d have to get someone like Chris Young plus greene at this point.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
all of that qualification is what deems the crux of the scenario.
controlled for 3 years, not a vet who is on a contract while in decline. and having the team willing to part (removes the Han, Rollins of the equation) and how many are left? Not too many.
I’d consider Brignac, I’m not tied to Rick at all cost.
Rick should be offered, and put into a place where he knows that the contract table is open during this off season, there won’t be any consideration when it comes to trade talks to his situation during the ’09 season. If he wants to work with the club on a reasonable term (length and price), this winter is the time to do it.
Reasonable to me is 3/24 with a 4th year option. That’ll carry him through his development and peak at a reasonable cost..
Is what I’m trying to key in on the most. Would the offer be a little low ball? Sure. Offering this winter to extend his contract means that we’re going to take risk. he has another injury and we’re taking that risk. We’re also giving him an environment with his best chance of succeeding.
If he wants to look elsewhere, that’s fine too. That means that he’s a trade chip, then we can start heading where you’re going. Pull in some key pieces that we need using his potential. No harm done.
My whole point in this is that he’s worth the additional investment, but it’s not going to be a FA market type of price. It’s not just money here and I think that may be a selling point. if he’s wanting 4/48, I wouldn’t do it either.
No matter how much I respect and enjoy Rick.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 23, 2008 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Youre right houstoncardinal
but i would still hate to lose rick. but business wise it makes the most sense especially with colby on the doorstep. still, if it were up to me i would not trade him as senseless as that sounds. i would give him the 4 years.
Would you be willing to pay him
4 Years/$40 to $50 million dollars. Because thats what I think he could pull in FA
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 22, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I bet he'd take it too
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
that's Luddy money
and both, while similar in injury concerns are very, very different players
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
well
Ankiel can definitely play center better than Ludwick… so if a team is looking for a CF in particular, they may just pay that kind of money. I think he’ll get a little less than those numbers though.
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
ya think?
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
solid defense, solid bat, 30-40hr potential, decent to above average glove
10mil per is easily accountable.
Luddy isn’t a better CF in defense than Rick is, that I’ll account for. But when you gauge the FA market you have to consider that some teams will take a small loss in CF defense for those types of numbers, and if he remains in RF, he’s still in the upper tier in that position.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
so how much does rick get?
or are luddy and rick equal in value? I’m kinda confused here.
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Luddy is clearly in more value now, but another season could hurt that. Rick can improve, but he has more than an injury past to overcome. Which should hurt his value some
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
I agree with all of that. Ludwick is the biggest bargain in MLB right now, eh?
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Not the best per say.......
Look at your hometown white sox…….Carlos Quentin is probably better than Luddy and he is 5 years younger.
+1
but Carlos and Ryan are for sure within rare company.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
well
those two are certainly the best within their respective leagues…
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably Tim Lincecum is
but I see your point.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 22, 2008 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
ah
why not just trade skip instead?
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
because Skip does not get you what Luddy or Ank would......
I think thats the discussion, maximizing trade value.
true
but I’m done with moneyball stuff for now. if this discussion is to move forward, someone will have to bring up some trades that will land is good MIF with a lot of potential. otherwise it’s sort of a moot point.
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
I mean, MI with pop and glove are in rare form. teams that hold them know what they have. One year of Rick, or Luddy won’t be able to jar that away even if there was a dire need for a corner OF for a contender. I don’t see it happening.
we may just as well try and get a declining, but serviceable vet for the next couple of years and see if we can develop internally a SS out of the core of young guys who are just now coming up the ranks.
I still have a gut feeling that we’re going to be sitting here years from now bitchin’ about the MI.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah probably
I think that Lopez will probably be one of the MIF guys, and Miles. beyond that who knows what these guys will do.
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
My dream MIF
ooh, doesn’t that sound a little creepy? I just want a plus defender with OBP and speed. I don’t care about pop. FWIW
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Everytime I see MIF
I think of this snl skit and I wonder when the new friend is gonna show up.
http://tubearoo.com/articles/90776/SNL_Jingleheimer_Junction.html
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Skip does have a few things going for him. More controlled years, "leadoff (i’m not valuing it, most managers do), speed, and lack of a major injury history.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
he’s really not that much worse of a trade chip than the other guys when you factor in everything.
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
if you believe BP's WARP metric
skip has actually been more valuable than Rick Ankiel this year. Of course he’s had a few more PA’s and more time in the field, but even if you correct for PA’s he’s been more valuable:
Ankiel 4.3 WARP1, 6.53 WARP1 per 650 PA’s
Schu 5.4 WARP1, 7.25 WARP1 per 650
Luddy 8.1 WARP1, 10.9 WARP1 per 650 (included just because, lol)
For whatever reason, rick’s defense has really slipped since early in the season, by every metric, but BP’s fielding metric thinks he’s been dreadful and it loves schumaker and ludwick.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
huh
yet another stat I will have to do some research on
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
one more:
albert pujols, 9.9 WARP1, 12.76 WARP1 per 650 PA. Albert’s best season so far is 11.3 WARP1, which he did in both 2003 and 2004; he’s on pace to blow that away.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
different insight
Nice to see a metric that illustrates his value to the team. Especially true since his RBI and runs scored are on pace for only ~100 ea.
WARP
That’s easily explainable…if Schu had to take as many AB’s against lefties as Rick has, his WARP rating would be much worse. I agree he’s dropped off considerably on defense since he got hurt diving on the warning track in May (not sure if that has anything to do with it), but he’s more than likely moving to RF next year anyway since Colby will (and should) be manning CF.
Also, Schu gets bonus for being an above average LF, which Rick would most assuredly be if he were playing there on a daily basis.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
thanks
each outfield position is different, TLR!
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe, maybe not.
Rick has had a slightly higher percentage of PA’s against lefties than Schu, but not as many as I thought before looking it up. Of ank’s 428 PA’s, 122 have been vs LHP (28.5 percent), while skip has had 118 out of 483 (24.4 percent).
To bring skip’s PA vs LHP rate up to match ankiel’s, it would require about 27 PA’s more vs LHP for skip. That doesn’t have an extreme effect; 27 PA’s at a .430 OPS added to 483 PA’s of .797 drops his overall OPS to .778.
But since a lot of skip’s value is from defense, the additional playing time in the field might make up for the few extra outs that he’d make. The extra PA’s vs LHP wouldn’t change things by much, at any rate.
Anyway I’m just musing here, remarking on the interesting-ness of it, not saying it’s an argument I agree with. I don’t think skip has been as valuable as Rick, since rick’s defense has been better than BP thinks, but it’s surprising to see how valuable skip has actually been. A lot more than I thought he’d be, that’s for sure.
And, when discussing trade value, a pre-arbitration 7+ win player has a lot of value, even for a corner OF. Skip is more valuable so far this season (by WARP1) than Adam Dunn, alfonso soriano, carlos lee (even after his power spike), jason bay, etc, and is only .4 WARP1 below Pat Burrell. That’s a pretty exciting chip.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
it's going to be a tough decision
to determine who should be playing in the OF next season, that’s for sure.
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Cant argue
with WARP but i just cant see skip getting a top prospect back as the Pirates got w/ Bay. I just dont think he is very valuable. He is a 4th outfielder.
what is your definition of "4th outfielder"?
You have to be careful when you label something, because it can be very hard to get that label off even if it doesn’t realy apply anymore.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
Maybe not
a 4th outfielder but he is a Heavy Platoon player and i dont think his power suffices and he will be 29 heading into next season. He’s not ‘young’
I like him
but i just dont see his value to other teams. Certainly not on the level of Ankiel or Ludwick.
Schumaker as a CFer, .842
Has an OPS playing CF that would put in him in the top 10 of all CFers in MLB with at least 150 AB’s
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 22, 2008 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
As a heavy platoon player.
How many of those other CF’ers dont bat against Lefties or Righties b/c they cant hit them?
again, that's perception
the average NL LHB faced lefties 18.2% of the time so far this year. Skip, 24.4. A completely non-platooned player would face lefties about 32 of the time. Skip has faced almost 33% more than the average number of lefties and has only been replaced in about 25% of his PA’s vs lefties. He does much better against RHP, but that is typical for a LHB, and L is the right side of the platoon to be on if that’s what you are.
He’s also a contact-oriented batter, which has been shown to be the most likely type of hitter to improve against same-side pitching over time.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
actually
my numbers above are massively conservative; i was basing them off of adam dunn, who i picked as a representative non-platooned player. In fact, LHP have thrown only 28.7% of the total PA’s this year.
So skip is really only very, very slightly platooned in terms of PA vs LHP. It basically amounts to 27 or 28 PA’s total over the course of the year so far, plus LOOGY time, though the league average includes LOOGY time. I’m not sure how to figure that.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
That leads me to a question
Taking this and running with a more general theme. What processes do you take when evaluating a players defensive prowess? I look at range factors and the fielding bible. Will look up other things on occasion too.
But there hasn’t been one thing I’d stake my reputation on. It seems like there is always a ton more “noise” around these fielding metrics. To the point where I haven’t really established a lot of confidence with any.
If they all tell the same story, and there is some amount of consistency year to year with a player (meaning a guy doesn’t bounce back between being in the top quarter and bottom quarter), then I give it some credence. But it seems like mostly I use it mainly to prove my preconceived biases. If it doesn’t agree with my perceptions then I don’t let those go.
If I see data that dispels what I believe offensively I am much more apt to ditch my previous views. I hold on to what I see much tighter on defense.
I just wonder what defensive metrics others use, what they believe most, and why. Maybe this is more of a fanpost type discussion, but I’m a little short on time this weekend. Maybe next week…
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 22, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe they'll never come up...
with a satisfactory tool for defense. It seems to me it will always be somewhat subjective, therefore imperfect.
Dempster scares me
hes never been all that good before, and he is having a career year in a contract year…
I just keep thinking Beltre
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Aug 22, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll be surprised to say the least
if he keeps this up
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Jon Heyman speculates
that Dempster will get 4/$48 and Oliver Perez will get 5/$60.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/08/22/heyman.bowden/index.html
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Tightens Grip
On our young cost controlled pitchers
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 22, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not a game you want to play?
Me either.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 22, 2008 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
cubs will only do it if he's willing to include a no-trade clause in the deal.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Ankiel for K. Greene?
I’m not that high on Khalil but I think the Padres may well be looking to move him this offseason and they need all sorts of help. We could also probably put together a package of prospect for Khalil if we are interested, but San Diego could be a nice landing place for Rick. Not a tough media market at all.
Maybe I'm just low on Greene
But I don’t think so either. Nice start to a package, though.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
It would be...
except that the only other guys I’d want are guys they surely won’t deal (or the Cardinals don’t need):
Adrian Gonzalez – no need
Chase Headley – won’t trade
Kevin Kouzmanoff – won’t trade/no need
Chris Young – won’t trade
Jake Peavy – won’t trade
Plus, Rick’s strengths don’t play well at a big park like PetCo and his weaknesses are magnified — i.e. he has trouble judging fly balls at times and PetCo has a huge area for the CF to roam.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
yeah
a lot of rick’s home runs barely get out of the park too, at least during games.
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
this may be worth looking at. Rick’s homeruns aren’t really the case of the luckies. actually it’s almost the complete opposite
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
hmm
I guess I just see more of the ones that barely make it out, like the last one he hit
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
That there is funny
“at least during games”
And he likes to swing at the first pitch, but only in games. :)
I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck
I heard he hit a lot of monster shots during batting practice
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
nowhere close
that’s not what I was advocating. No, no, no. The SS we get would have to be MUCH better than Greene.
Burnett/Thompson vs. Lohse
Statistically, it makes a lot of sense, and I don’t disagree with your point. One thing that you really don’t address is the effect that the AJ/Brad duo has on the bullpen. If you’re going to have Looper/Wellemeyer in your rotation, guys who struggle to get out of the 6th inning in nearly every start, having a second (or third) pitcher who is the same way really taxes the bullpen. Also, since you have to carry Thompson on the roster in case of injury or for long relief of a horrible start, you effectively shorten that bullpen even more. It has more to do with the entire starting pitching staff that you have as to whether you can afford to carry a dominant 5 inning starter with injury problems.
Case in point:
The 2008 Chicago Cubs. Their bullpen has been suspect all season with the exception of Wood and Marmol, and even Carlos has been suspect at times because he has to pitch so often. Harden is a great talent and has filthy stuff, but rarely gets out of the 5th inning, so the bullpen has to come in and pitch four innings nearly every time he starts. With guys like Dempster and Zambrano pitching ahead of him in the rotation the bullpen is able to rest because those two guys nearly always get to the 7th inning. With Lilly and Marshall/BPBetty behind him, Piniella can count on hanging a bad start on those guys and letting them pitch their way out of it, as Betty did so many times for the Cards in his tenure here. With a staff like the Cubs’ you can afford to have one of those guys, because you have a more reliable 5th starting option (Marquis/Samardzjia/Marshall) and more starters that go deep into game.
I’d much rather go after Ryan Dempster in the offseason than AJ Burnett, and I’m guess that they’ll cost about the same amount for the same number of years. Dempster has pitched like a #1 this year, in a hitters park, and would make the top three in the BOB rotation absolutely dominant, with less risk of injury and less taxation on the bullpen.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
But if it's simply a long-reliever issue
you can always swap out one for another, running them up and down from Memphis. Surely we can find more one than long reliever in the farm system, no?
by Red in Chicago on Aug 22, 2008 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
That's my point
you have to keep running them up and down, wasting options and not letting them develop as pitchers, and you still have to have a roster spot for just that guy and you couldn’t really use him as a long reliever — he’d be more like a personal catcher in that he’s on the roster for just one guy, except that the team would have to carry three catchers instead of just the starter and backup (if you get my analogy) It’s a waste of a roster spot. If that’s the case, then save the money, go with a young starter at the back of the rotation, and throw some of that dough at other problems (bullpen, middle infield) or save it for 2010 when there will be more arms available.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Also
not all the pitchers you’d be running up and down would have an FIP as good as Thompson’s, most would probably be worse (see Parisi, Mike), because the organization would be stupid to jerk around a top pitching prospect for those reasons….oh wait, we already did that with a top prospect and then dealt him for next to nothing…………………………………..
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Just to shed light on what I think about that situation
I actually had to think for a little while about who you were talking about.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
attitude
might the fan reaction to players expressing distate for a managerial move also have something to do with the way it’s phrased? I think an “I’d prefer to start, but i just want to help the team and play hard every day” type of bull durham cliche gets the point across in an acceptable way that would be hard to argue with. I swear the players’ association should have a 3 day long workshop on the fine art of griping.
Remaining Schedule
Dayn Perry does a shallow analysis (compared to LB) of what remains for contenders.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Most of his stuff is shallow
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by Futility Infielder on Aug 22, 2008 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
For that matter, most of the national writers’ stuff is shallow.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Rollins
Good morning.
What’s the latest on Jimmy Rollins? Do the Cardinals have a legitimate shot at obtaining him during the off season? I don’t live in your area so i don’t get all the “gossip.”
By the way, getting Dempster or Burnett sounds good to me, too!
I’m worried about Carpenter. I’d hate to see him turn into another Mulder (meaning someone whose injuries don’t seem to ever heal.) What’s the latest on him? He is done for the year?
Thank you.
Rollins
Jimmy Rollins is signed through 2011. And I doubt the Phillies would trade the 2007 MVP, even if he was sorely undeserving of the award. I have not heard even a hopeful whisper of acquiring him.
Carp had a heartening long throw session in that it didn’t result in a shutdown. I hope that he is done for the year, as a precautionary measure, but the organization is keeping everyone in the dark on his status and timetable. As for Mulder, maybe his new yoga instructor will help him heal…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Mulder
Did they really need to tell us that he shaved his armpit??
by launchshuttle on Aug 22, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
so Mulder should become a swimmer?
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
or just swim in a circle...
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
heh
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I shave my armpits
for aerodynamic advantage when throwing punches
I'm going to go drive my new daewoo lanos a little later
want to join? my old one was a little bloody.
I never understood why it was
that the fans’ disenchantment with Rollins equalled him being traded. Were the Phillies sold to the citizens, like the Green Bay Packers?
by Red in Chicago on Aug 22, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Because
the player might want to get moved if he thinks the city he lives in is hostile or that the club isn’t giving him the support he wants. See Rolen, Scott.
When he starts getting pelted
with cheesesteak sandwiches next time he takes the field, let me know.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 22, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
philly fans
usually choose batteries if I’m not mistaken…they wouldn’t waste a good cheesesteak on some player they don’t like.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Belliard is en fuego today
Two doubles, two home runs. Waiver trade anyone?
by Red in Chicago on Aug 22, 2008 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Azruvatar please ignore
Since you are “not enamored of baseball’s history or past players beyond using them as comps for prospects or other current individuals” stop reading now (and pardon me while my head continues to spin after reading that sentence.)
For the rest of us, and mostly for those who can remember it, which is probably only me and maybe 2 others on this site, let us celebrate the 26th anniversary of an awesome day in Cardinal history.
Cards 5, Giants 4 (12 innings)
Two words – Glenn Brumnmer.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 22, 2008 11:25 AM EDT reply actions
wow... 4 career SB's
and one of them is Home…… wish I saw that.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 22, 2008 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
My favorite part about that play, if I believe everything Mike Shannon says (and I do), is that the ump was so surprised by Brummer stealing home that he didn’t make a ruling on the pitch, which would have been strike three (to Willie McGee?).
Or so the legend goes.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
This is why they should have a MLB TV Vault that is free
We could all be watching the play right now but for Selig’s rudderless leadership since I’m sure it’s not on YouTube.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
can someone here do better than me with this?
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 22, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks, jeff_abs
Happy anniversary H.L.P.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 22, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
"...perhaps the slowest player on a team built for speed..."
That’s really great.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Is FSN doing tonights game?
If so, I wonder if they will do a “This date in Cardinal History” with this event? have your recorders ready.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 22, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I sent FSNMW
An e-mail asking if they could play the video tonight
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 22, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
They Responded Back
Patrick,
Thanks for your e-mail. Good catch. We will pass this along to our
producers.
FSN Midwest
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 22, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Cool, Thanks "Patrick"
If it’s on tonight…. we all owe you a franklin.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 22, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
What's my cut
for bringing it up originally?
I keed….
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 22, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You'll always have our undying gratitude
Thanks for the memories. Were you at the game or ???
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 22, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
No
I was at a family picnic thing listening to it on the radio. Home games were not televised then, so every fan from back then knows that great Shannon call:
“Lavelle kicks and fires…. Brummer’s stealing home!! He is ….saaaaaafe!!!”
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 22, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
sigh....
would have loved to have heard that. The 82 team was my first W.S. team (I was too young for the 60’s teams) and living in L.A….. I only heard the Cards when they played the Dodgers or were broadcast on Saturday or Monday night.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 22, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
They are showing TB Rays/W. Sox here (OKC) tomorrow on FOX???
Crap!….. what area is seeing the game tomorrow?
How does that happen??
I would think all of Oklahoma would be in the Cards market…of course the Rays/Sox game is a better contest…sorry OKCF!!
nah... Texas AAA team is here
Being an American League affiliate… I guess they figure the interest is there….. But this area has tons of Cards Fans.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 22, 2008 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
haha
in his next at-bat, the cubs gave harris the second IBB of his career, and 3 pitches later aaron boone doubled him home. 10-5!
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
what happened to fukudome...
really haven’t paid much attention to the flubs in the past few weeks, other than to note their wins/losses. What happened to Fukudome? Aside from is OBP, he looks like he has to be one of the most over hyped signings I’ve ever seen. Makes the all star appearance even more of a joke all while making me happy to enjoy some perils from the Cubs this season.
Harris homers again
and the worst team in the NL is giving the Cubs a good old fashioned country whoopin.
Home run #2
13-5 Gnats and Gaudin is taking one for the team.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
we may not be able to catch them
but it still makes me giddy when those bastards lose!
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
especially to the nationals!
it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2008 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Considering USA baseball is about done
does Barden get some call-up lovin’?
While his Ks are high, he has posted a reasonable .300/.364/.500 line for the team.
In the few games I’ve seen, he’s looked reasonably competent at the plate, sadly.. not too exciting either.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 22, 2008 5:45 PM EDT reply actions
I would say that even if he was scaulding the ball he would not get too much time
because of a promise to Brendan Ryan and Felipe Lopez
When the time comes for me to not be bothered by losing that is when I know it is time to retire my fandom
He was part of that series called The Show
I don’t know what channel it was originally on, but it’s on MOJO now. Anyway, he was with the Tucson Sidewinders and I just happened to be watching the show (its really not that interesting and it’s been on for a couple years now) and they were talking about Barden with his manager. The manager said Barden was in a tough spot because he didn’t have the power to stick at third and didn’t have the speed and range to start in the majors in the MIF. Called him a “tweener”.
I’m not saying this is valid or a definitive scouting report, but just thought it was interesting and really nothing I didn’t know already, but kind of explains why he’s never gotten much of a shot.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Rule 5 players
I was just reading yesterday’s discussion and there was a bit about Mo protecting some players from the Rule 5 draft this winter.
I was thinking of trying to figure out which players this would be, but before I do that I wanted to make sure the list wasn’t already available somewhere.
Anyone know if such a list exists on the interwebs?
And to clarify, its five years for players under 18 on JUN5 of their draft year, four years for players over 18?
i can't get there from here
but you might try searching the forums and articles at stlcardinals.scout.com. If it’s not there, I’ll be surprised.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Giancarlo Stanton busts Marlins Park scoreboard with tape-measure grand slam (VIDEO)
- Baltimore’s tradition of fans shouting ‘O!’ during national anthem sparks interleague feud
- Chris Perez follows rant against Cleveland fans with even better rant against Cleveland fans
- Pitcher Clayton Richard gets key pinch single in 13th after coming in 0 for 16
- Livan Hernandez welcomes ball boy to the bigs with shower of sunflower seeds (VIDEO)
