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Disheartening, no?

Just another bad loss in a season that has seen too many of them, a reminder that this team, despite seemingly overachieving, could certainly be in much better shape.

If this team does indeed end up missing the playoffs, one of the first places to look for answers as to why will be their record against just a few teams. The Cardinals now have a losing record on the year against the Pirates, at 6-7. They lost their season series against an absolutely horrid San Francisco ballclub, with three wins in seven attempts. Their record versus the Brewers this year is an unsightly 4-9. El Birdos did manage to end up with a season series win against the Rockies, 4-3, but between the opening day rainout and subsequent loss to one Robert Wells combined with the very first bullpen meltdown of the season, one could make a compelling case that the Cardinals probably should have won all seven games against the defending NL champs.

Of those teams, the Brewers are obviously a pretty good club, but the other three are all complete pushovers that the Cardinals failed to take advantage of this year. And technically, the first couple of series the Cards played against Milwaukee this season came when the Brewers were struggling to find their identity. Regardless, the record is what it is, and the Cardinals find themselves having played those four teams six games under .500. They've pretty well cleaned up against the rest of the west, beating up on the Dodgers and Padres, and have handled the East quite nicely also. Within the division, though, and against a couple of really, really bad NL West teams, the Cardinals have looked more like the team they were predicted to be than the team we've (mostly) seen on the field.

I'm quite sure that most of you have seen it by now, but Jason Isringhausen is almost assuredly done for the season, and could very well be done period. He has a torn flexor muscle in his right elbow, and apparently has been dealing with it for some time. I believe- though don't hold me to it- that this is the same muscle that Troy Percival tore up a few years ago and still hasn't ever actually had repaired, despite his return to pitching. If this isn't the same general group of muscles and I'm just totally off base here, perhaps one of our resident medical experts could weigh in on exactly what we're looking at here with Izzy.

I've obviously said my piece in the past as far as Jason Isringhausen is concerned, but I still would just like to say once again that, if this is truly the end for Izzy, that he will be sorely missed. The man has done a ton for the Cardinals during his time here, and despite my, and a lot of other's, misgivings about the way he went about getting some of his saves, he still has saved more games than anyone else in a Cardinal uniform. That's quite a history, considering that the likes of Lee Smith, Dennis Eckersley, and Bruce Sutter have all spent time wearing the Birds on the Bat. Yet Izzy will go into the Cardinal record books as the all time franchise saves leader, and for that we all thank him. Take care, Jason. If you don't get come back this way as a player, I look forward to seeing you as a bullpen coach somewhere down the line.

Izzy came here as a free agent following the 2001 season, joining a team that had lost to the eventual champion Diamondbacks in the NLDS. Strangely enough, that's actually probably the most significant free agent acquisition the Cardinals have made this entire decade.

Since that contract that the Cards gave to Isringhausen, they've only given out four multi year free agent contracts. Braden Looper, Juan Encarnacion, Adam Kennedy, and David Eckstein all received three year deals, Eckstein after the 2004 season, Looper and Encarnacion after the 2005 campaign. Beyond those four and Izzy, though, virtually every player the Cardinals have brought in have been either via trade or via the scrap heap, with a smattering of homegrown players sprinkled in. I'm not sure, but that seems like an unusually low number to me. Unfortunately, I don't have the time this morning to do a full research in order to determine if that really is a low number or not.

What I do know, though, is that those contracts make as compelling a case as one could hope for as to why a player development system is so important. Jason Isringhausen has received approximately $49 million over the course of his time here, comprising seven full seasons. Now, as I said earlier, Izzy has certainly contributed a lot to the Cardinals' run of success over that time, but seven million dollars a year is still a lot of money. Even if Chris Perez becomes a truly elite closer over the next couple of seasons, he'll make less than a tenth of that over probably the next four years.

As for those other four contracts, altogether those deals are worth slightly less than fifty million dollars. And what do the Cards have to show for them? Two years of right around league average performance from David Eckstein, followed by one year of very rapid decline. A year and a half of slightly better than league average performance from Juan; obviously, what happened to him is outside the realm of ordinary considerations, so we'll just leave it at that. A year of average relief work from Braden Looper, followed by one below average season of starting and most of a year of slightly above average starting. And finally, Adam Kennedy. 'Nuff said.

Altogether, that fifty million bought about six and a half years of league average performance from those four players, if we just even out Looper's two years of starting and call it average. The big problem, of course, is that those fifty million also bought basically four years of decline, one from Eck and three full years of Kennedy.

I know this point has been well covered at various points in time, but I was struck in looking at the free agent deals the Cardinals have signed this decade just how mediocre the production really was for the money. If we ever needed a reminder that trying to build a team on the open market is a losing proposition, it's all right there. Those six and a half years of league averageness that you got for those fifty million dollars is essentially one decent player from the farm system.

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Isn't it remarkable

how injuries like this crop up just about the time that someone is due to come OFF the disabled list?

by StanTheManFan on Aug 20, 2008 9:35 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The End of an Era

From the McGwire- and Edmonds-led 2000 playoff berth through the World Series championship in 2006, it was a very special run. It is difficult to watch a collection of players who have given so much joy to us while watching baseball decline and be shipped out or retire. Nonetheless, despite Izzy’s flair for the dramatics, I’m going to miss him. He came in a enabled TLR to manage his ‘pen the way TLR likes to manage a ’pen and was a hallmark of our 100-win teams. While one could say that the era ended last year with a horrendous team or this pastoffseason, I’d say this is the final punctuation mark on an incredible era of Cardinal baseball. Fittingly, our workhorse closer is the last one to ride into the sunset. Thank you, Izzy.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 9:35 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Last One?

Pujols is still around, and he’s been with the team a year longer than Izzy.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 20, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's like Musial

He transcends eras because his prime will hopefully be so long.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 10:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mo-Chat Today at Noon

You can submit a quesiton here. I’ve got to say that I think it’s neat that he does this. If you’ll recall, during the Spring Training Mo-Chat, he fielded some scathing questions with one questioner reminding him that was the GM of the Cardinals and not the Royals. It might be wise of use to submit as many questions as we can demanding that Wainwright be placed in the rotation…

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 9:42 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mozeliak, if nothing else,

is far and away more media savvy than Jocketty ever was.

by azruavatar on Aug 20, 2008 9:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He is more media-available

But he doesn’t really give out a lot of red meat. I know he has the state secrets locked up in his attache, but it seems like the only information about what’s going on is dug out of the front office by Joe Strauss with a dental pick.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 20, 2008 9:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Can you imagine Jocketty going on The ITD Morning After Show

and joking with McKernan, Vaughn and Hayes? I can’t. Mozeliak may give some boilerplate responses but he’s far and away better at disguising and delivering them to the public.

by azruavatar on Aug 20, 2008 11:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

“the shows deteriorating.”

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Aug 20, 2008 2:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I remember when he seemingly stomped his feet

after someone asked him about Aaron Miles. I think he is very aware of what the ‘fans’ say about the Cardinals and it irked him that the Miles signing was getting hammered.

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 20, 2008 9:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Izturis

He also defended Izturis as having value, or something along those lines. That signing is even more indefensible now than then. As for Grit, he has been the best offensive MIFer of the group. Not that that says a whole heckuva lot, but I was certainly wrong about this year’s production from him. That said, I absolutely would not re-sign Miles in the offseason.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 9:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, pleading his case

It was rough because there wasn’t much on the FA market in terms of SS, but the least he could have said was that Izturis had injury problems the last three seasons, but had a good 2004 so we plucked him off of the scrap heap. He DOES have value with the glove and against LHP, but none whatsovever the other 70% of the time.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 10:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Defending Iz2...

If one’s pitching staff is built around “pitch-to-contact” (check), it behooves one to play the best defensive infield one can… Granted, Iz2’s OPS+ this year is 66 (in line with his career OPS+ of 67), but his Range Factor according to baseball-reference.com is 4.17, against a league average of 3.98.

It’s my opinion that a team can afford one “good field, no hit” middle infielder… Adam Kennedy’s OPS+ of 76 is one reason Aaron Miles and his 94 OPS+ has 329 PA’s this year, despite a Range Factor of 3.12 at 2B, compared to the league average of 4.05.

It’s not like there were many better options at short for Mo; maybe that can be corrected this off-season… or has anybody besides me noted that Rafael Furcal’s been hurt all year?

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Aug 20, 2008 10:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

AK was under contract

That’s the beef, really, with the signing. This isn’t 1984 where you can afford to have two Mendozas patrolling the middle of the infield, especially in the NL with the pitcher batting as well. It should be an either/or proposition. Either Izturis or AK.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 10:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You can afford it.....

when there aren’t any other viable options.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 20, 2008 10:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no, you can't

imagine where this team might be with a halfway decent middle infielder with some pop. whats 2 wins worth right now??

How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor

by themanthemyth on Aug 20, 2008 11:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who would have brought us those 2 wins?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 20, 2008 11:17 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Whether they "could have" or "couldn't have"

they “had” to.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 11:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can play that game.....

Imagine where we’d be if closer hadn’t been such a problem?
Or if Pujols was 100% healthy and didn’t miss two weeks?
Or Ankiel didn’t get hurt?
Or Carp came back sooner?
Or Waino didn’t get hurt?
Or Welly didn’t get hurt?

That was fun.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 20, 2008 12:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"closer hadn’t been such a problem?"

This one hurts the most. Others deal with injuries….. this one may be related to injury (Izzy) and it all snowed ball downhill from there.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 20, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

injuries are a completely different story

than not having the tools to begin with. you know there is a huge difference between the two. that was fun, too.

How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor

by themanthemyth on Aug 20, 2008 2:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My point was.....

We did have the tools. Had any of those guys stayed healthy, we’re probably leading the WC right now.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 20, 2008 4:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep, one crappy MI is enough.

The problem is this season we had three (four if you count Miles). Mo needs to stop the insanity. Drop Kennedy off at the Greyhound bus station with a note that says “Please take care of this infielder. I have enclosed $3 million to pay for most of his salary for the year. Sincerely, Mo.”

by Red in Chicago on Aug 20, 2008 11:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree entirely.

I think Izturis at SS, Ankiel, Schu, and Ludwick in the OF are the primary reasons we are seeing substantially better years out of our SPs. And everyone clamoring for Ryan to start have learned LaRussa may have been right about his production. Where would we be right now if Ryan had been the opening day SS?

by CardFaninTTown on Aug 20, 2008 1:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where would we be?

Probably around 70-58 and about 2 1/2 games out of the wild card.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 2:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you think

Ryan is the equal to what Izturis has done? He impacts the game more than many realize. I agree he is an offensive black-hole. But he certainly has proven his value to the club with his stellar defense.

by CardFaninTTown on Aug 20, 2008 2:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They're pretty even as far as hitting goes

but while Izturis is better defensively, he’s not going to change 5 to 10 games where we’d have lost had Ryan been in there. We might be a couple games worse, but even that’s a bit of a stretch.

Ryan’s no slouch defensively. I think Izturis has a better glove and arm, but I’d say Ryan’s got better range. Plus, his arm is above average as is his glove.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 2:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I won't say that

I think it is a huge difference or that Izturis is a great SS. I just think that the alternatives we had were not very good. The defense up the middle was one of the reasons we have seen an improvement on the mound and overall more success compared to last year. It clearly isn’t the only reason. Our OF defense is much better as well and now we have more punch in the line-up to protect Pujols and to comensate when Pujols struggles or doesn’t hit.

by CardFaninTTown on Aug 20, 2008 4:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

with a chance

that we are much better, as Ryan has the potential to be better offensively while playing roughly equivalent defense. Plus, iz2’s $3M could have been put towards sign ron mahay.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 20, 2008 2:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not wanting to stick up for Brendan Ryan

but I don’t really get your point about his defense. His RF as SS is pretty similar and his % is better. RZRs are virtually the same. Both suck at the plate. I can imagine with regular playing time Ryan could at least have managed to duplicated Iz2’s 66 OPS+. But I certainly do agree with your overall point that the improved defense has helped the pitchers.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 20, 2008 2:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree.......

I tihnk if B. Ryan has Izturis’s playing time the record would be fairly similar. I think Izturis fields the ball more consistently than Ryan. Ryan tended to get a bit sleepy at times….

I argue that Ryan has “more” upside than Izturis. I don’t think it’s the case

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thats funny

i think i had the same reaction when someone told me about the miles signing

by FunkeeC on Aug 20, 2008 9:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think we can call this season "Year of Hiding Injuries"

Mulder, Duncan, Izzy hid their injuries (maybe… from us anyway) and the questions of Wainwright and Carpenter’s health are a daily topic….. plus others…

We can also call this season “Young Blood Rising”.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 20, 2008 10:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's because Tony always

takes the player’s word. Why would they lie?

by Red in Chicago on Aug 20, 2008 11:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just submitted mine

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 20, 2008 12:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Castellini & Jocketty Letter to Red Fans (not Communism, but Cincy)
We had high expectations for the 2008 season. Unfortunately the team has not played up to our expectations and we have sustained injuries to key players within our starting lineup and rotation.

Read the whole letter here. Mo is chatting with fans about the Wild Card race while Walt is writing open letters begging fans not to jump ship. Yikes.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 10:04 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is good to see

we have all successfully blocked out the Tino Martinez signing.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Aug 20, 2008 10:34 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who is this Tino you speak of?

:-)

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

by TurdFerguson on Aug 20, 2008 10:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tino who?

The guy that played for the Yankees? What does he have to do with the Cardinals? Because I know the Cards would never be so dumb to give him a multi-year contract and then dump him for nothing before it’s over because he was so bad for us.

Lalalalalalala.

by Harknights on Aug 20, 2008 10:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

moved from the FanPost section -- this was originally posted by birdjam:

I hope posting this is OK – I am not trying to spam or sell anything (I am in no way affiliated with Amazon or any of their third-party merchants,) but I thought everyone here would want to know about this deal.

I was shopping on Amazon.com this past weekend and noticed that under the listing for the 8-disc special 2006 World Series DVD set (selling on Amazon for $45,) it said “used and new from $13.83.” On a whim, I clicked on the link just to see what kind of deals they had, and there were several merchants selling it new (factory-sealed) for under $14.

I chose a merchant with over 14,000 ratings in the last month (99% of them positive.) The transaction goes through Amazon, so it should be pretty safe. This set originally sold for about $80, and I got it (shipping included) for $16.87.

This link should take you to the offers: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000K2UVWK/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2DL73WOZLX8Q3&colid=2HMFHDEMPP0Q8&condition=new

The set has 8 discs including every game of the World Series, but I read it also includes the complete Game 5 and Game 7 from the NLCS and other features. I am sure a lot of you already own the set, but for those of you who were scared away by the original steep pricetag (like me,) this is a much better deal.

There’s a description/review of the set here:

http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/cardinals2006worldseries.php

by lboros on Aug 20, 2008 10:39 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is there any DVD collection out there of the NLCS in 06?

Not to poo poo the WS, but, it was actually not that great.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 20, 2008 10:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not that I know of

But the DVD collection has 2 NLCS games with it. I believe Game 5 and 7.

by saladdays on Aug 20, 2008 10:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've got that one

Archived it to DVD. The quality is less than perfect, but it’s edited fairly cleanly. The game I’d really like to have is game 1 of the NLDS—the one that started it all. IIRC, that was when Belliard made that clutch defensive play sliding to his left (in short RF) and ended the threat in the 7th or 8th. Everybody was pumped. Didn’t Jim Ed give Ronnie the game ball for that one?

Anybody wanna trade?

by meat on Aug 20, 2008 11:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This play?

That was awesome. I’d like to have that one too…

"Crud, does that booger-eating spaz make me wanna puke!" - Tanner Boyle

by iron duke75 on Aug 20, 2008 6:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Download

during the 06 postseason all the games were available for download off MLB.com for free, not sure if it is still free but I think you can still download them.

by StLHugo on Aug 20, 2008 10:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow, really?

I wish that I’d have known…

I’m sure that with the DVD for sale, no such downloading is still possible.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 11:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just checked

if you have an MLB.tv subscription you can still watch the game in the archive, not sure about dowloading though but they do have classic MLB games on iTunes. But the free downloads actually started with the tomahawk chop game then all the postseason, that is how I watched a couple of them.

by StLHugo on Aug 20, 2008 11:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

iTunes has them for free?

Or, just MLBTV? I may have misunderstood.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 12:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All the games?

I knew the clinching games of the NLDS, NLCS and WS were available to download. I got those. They are monster files. All of them over 500 MB. Quality is pretty crud but I can certainly get the general idea.

by Youneverknow on Aug 20, 2008 11:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow

I should have waited to buy it.

by saladdays on Aug 20, 2008 10:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's a good deal

Although when I bought mine, it was sometime over the winter after the World Series and amazon had made it a hot sell or something for the day. It was 50% off, so I’m still cool with only paying $40 for it.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was wondering where this went!

Thanks, Larry.

When my set arrives, I am watching Game 7 of the NLCS first. That game was awesome.

Lou Brock loves Lamp.

by birdjam on Aug 20, 2008 11:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So did I!!!

Thanks for the tip, Larry. I can’t wait to play and replay that strike three on Beltran in slow-mo for my Met -fan friends!!!

by tbell61 on Aug 20, 2008 11:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bought it too

as well as the Greatest Games set from Busch II.

Thanks!

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Aug 20, 2008 11:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Me too...or me seven...whatever...

I bought the World Series set and the Greatest Games set from the same place…damn good deal. Thanks BJ…

"Crud, does that booger-eating spaz make me wanna puke!" - Tanner Boyle

by iron duke75 on Aug 20, 2008 6:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wow

thanks lboros. just ordered – that is really a fantastic deal considering it costs less than the dvd thing i have that just has highlights from the series. can’t wait to recieve this and put it in every time i get frustrated watching the current team

by riotmute on Aug 20, 2008 11:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

or during the offseason

when I’m desperate to watch baseball

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 20, 2008 11:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks, lboros and birdjam

I just bought a copy too. We’re going to single-handedly clean them out!

by BTown Birds fan on Aug 20, 2008 11:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

haha. seriously!

i just bought a copy, too! lboros, they should give you a referral fee!

by launchshuttle on Aug 20, 2008 12:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I believe it would be appropriate

to give the kudos to birdjam who originally found this awesome deal. I’m so glad I didn’t buy this package from the team store during my recent visit to STL.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on Aug 20, 2008 12:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey, thanks for the kudos...

… it was my pleasure spreading the good news. I just can’t wait for my set to get here.

Lou Brock loves Lamp.

by birdjam on Aug 20, 2008 1:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It will be interesting to see whether

you have created enough of a “run” on this item that some of the sellers will raise their prices.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 20, 2008 1:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Add me to the list of runners

Demand is going up, supply is going down, prices ought to rise, no?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 2:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

quick question

did you all get if from the seller dealmaker777? because that’s the cheapest one of all the new ones & the 98% positive rating.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Aug 20, 2008 6:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Got mine

from “youlikethat”. 99% positive and over 6000 ratings. Listed as new in shrink wrap and only $17.something…

"Crud, does that booger-eating spaz make me wanna puke!" - Tanner Boyle

by iron duke75 on Aug 20, 2008 6:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I purchased mine from aokmovies2...

… and they do not appear to be listed anymore. And the cheapest brand-new set is now $16.76 before shipping, so apparently we did drive the price up.

Lou Brock loves Lamp.

by birdjam on Aug 20, 2008 6:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have this set already

I got it for $45 at Best Buy in January of 2007 and I think I’ve watched it about 10 times since then and still haven’t made it through all of the commentary and extra interviews that the discs came with. It really is a nice set to have if you’re a Cards fan.

Game 7 of the NLCS is far and away my favorite disc, FWIW.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 20, 2008 12:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Playoff Highlights?

I know that on the “Busch Greatest Games” DVD set (upon which they inexplicably chose 2004 NLCS Game 7 or Game 6, but I digress) they have highlights and interviews. Is there a highlight section from the playoffs with Belli’s play versus S.D. and So’s homer?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 12:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no

This set only includes the actual games and then has commentary from various players and coaches on one of the discs. It’s been a while since I’ve dug it out (moving into a tiny apartment to save some cash and having to put a ton of stuff into storage will do that to a guy) so I can’t remember exactly who they talk to, but I know LaRussa is one of them and his interview is pretty candid for a guy who’s never expressive about anything.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 20, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jeff Suppan

Signed a three-year deal in 2003 for only $9MM.

by mike-h on Aug 20, 2008 10:58 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Julian Tavarez

Didn’t we sign him to a two-year deal?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 4:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not a free agent when they extended him

How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor

by themanthemyth on Aug 20, 2008 11:16 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think he was focusing on...

multi-year deals. Carp was signed for 1 year $.5 mil. Really more of a scrapheap signing in which we got EXTREMELY lucky. Suppan, however is an oversight.

by cardzfanbub on Aug 20, 2008 11:16 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

should Cards wear the road uniforms at home?

Sheesh….. Home record is bad….. 33-29…..

37-29 on road………

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 20, 2008 11:14 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Poor Free Agent Signings Does Not Mean They are Always Bad

Yes, the Cardinals have signed a lot of poor free agents. But that does not mean all free agent signings are bad.

All of those signings (like the signing of Izturis, also) you discussed were for players who were not very good before the Cardinals signed them. Signing mediocre players entering or in their 30’s to multi-year deals is a recipe for disaster.

by tarakas on Aug 20, 2008 12:18 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Izzy

It’s a shame that it has to (potentially) end this way. Seemed like a genuinely nice guy. Frustrating at times, but damn he cared about getting his job done. Nothing but respect for the man.

All that having been said, will there be a time in the near future when 44 gets added to the retired numbers of Busch? He wasn’t the greatest, but being the franchise career saves leader seems like something trivial that would merit a retired number. What do you think?

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 20, 2008 12:23 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fan reaction?

I perceive a divide in Cardinal Nation with Izzy. It seems that some people hate him while others are okay with him. He has probably been booed more than any Cardinal that I can remember. How would the fans react to honoring him, I wonder.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am more than OK with him, I have

great respect for the guy. And at the same time, I do not want him to ever pitch for us again.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 20, 2008 12:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My sentiments exactly...

… I have felt that way for a while now.

Lou Brock loves Lamp.

by birdjam on Aug 20, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+2

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 20, 2008 1:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think in this case

time heals all (or most) wounds. Let Bernie write a few articles and Dan and Al blather on about him for a few nights and I think all would be fine.

Now, I don’t know if he’ll get 44 retired. From what I could gather, Sutter wasn’t necessarily a slam dunk but was made a moot point with 42 being retired anyway. And IMO, Sutter was much better than Izzy and it’s not even close.

But I don’t think that being the team’s career saves leader is enough to get the job done although he is 57 ahead of Smith, 88 ahead of Worrell, and 90 ahead of Sutter. So, who knows.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 12:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

all of those guys were much much better relievers than izzy

izzy was just more durable I suppose, and stayed with the team longer.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 20, 2008 1:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Izzy's peak

Jason Isringhausen at his peak (2001-2005, his age 28-32 seasons) was as good as just about anything I think we have seen in St. Louis. He was in Oakland the first year of that stretch, however. In those 5 years, Izzy pitched in 302 games. He finished 254 of them, saving 174 games. Those 5 years, he threw 313 innings with a WHIP of 1.08. He racked up 305 strikeouts during that time period, which translates to 8.77 K’s per 9. He had a 2.8 K:BB as well. Not only that, but only allowed 16 homers in those 5 seasons. His ERA+, chronologically, for those seasons were 164,161, 175, 149, and 198.

He got injured the next year and missed out playing for the World Series title that the Cardinals won, still posting over 30 saves and a 125 ERA+, even though some of his peripherals were way off. Then, he bounced back in 2007 to regain his form from the previous peak years. He is again injured this season, and his career may be over.

If he had started as a closer and pitched those first four seasons in the same fashion, we’d be looking at a pitcher closing in on 400-450 saves for his career. That’s not too shabby.

by stlfan on Aug 20, 2008 2:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Moving on...

Does this mean that we have officially moved on to the Chris Perez era here in STL? I know that many people on here, playing GM/manager for the day would provide an immediate answer in the affirmative.

Here’s a look at Perez’s numbers when he finishes a game only.

13 games finished. 13 1/3 innings pitched in those 13 games. 11 hits, 8 walks, 16 Ks, 4 ER. 2:1 K:BB, 10.8 K/9, 1.425 WHIP, 2.70 ERA. (~165 ERA+)

Anyone want to take any REALLY premature guesses on what his line would look like next year if he finishes (not necessarily saves) approximately 55 games for the Cardinals?

by stlfan on Aug 20, 2008 2:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know this is kind of dumb

But I just prefer the idea of an intimidating closer like a Lee Smith or Todd Worrell. So I am very excited about Overlord Perez’s run. If he is indeed the new closer.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 20, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I care about longevity........

I don’t care how they get it done or look as long as they get it done for a long period of time.

Just think of all the “bad ass” closers who only did it for 1 or 2 seasons.

Gagne
Rocker
Who was the Brewes guy before Turnbow who went to ATL and sucked

I don’t know I just want guys who get it done, even if they have to do it Rod Beck style with smoke and mirrors….

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 3:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah but

wouldn’t it be nice if Chris Perez is the next Lee Smith? light’s out…

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 20, 2008 3:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah for sure...

I am just saying it seems like so many closers burn out I want to see some longevity.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 3:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right

Gagne never really had that much on his fastball, and he still burned out fast. and I know I’d rather have someone that gets the job done regardles of how they do it. as for longevity, it depends how long the guy is going to be on your team for one. it would be nice to avoid the quick burnouts though of a season or two for sure.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 20, 2008 3:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gagne went down hill when he hurt his arm.

He had a better fastball veloicity wise than Perez when healthy. He lost velocity, which reduced the effect of his off speed, and he lost some confidence.

Yeah some closers are great for 2 years and then they vanish… It’s all about adjusting and the great ones adjust…. aka Trevor Hoffman

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 3:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Eckersley wasn't

physically imposing. And he was lights out.

People dog Izzy for creating more drama than necessary, but in his run from 01-05 he had a WHIP of barely over 1. That is very good. We seem only to remember those games when he failed.

Has anyone noticed that K-Rod is struggling right now. It happens to everyone. Especially as innings mount over time.

by CardFaninTTown on Aug 20, 2008 4:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it's a good point

but he hasn’t been like the old days for a few years now, so that’s what I remember the most

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 20, 2008 4:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought Gagne had a run of about 6-7 year of dominance as a closer

with the Dodgers…….
He’s had injuries, the MItchell report, and more injuries……had a bit of bounce back for half a year last year with the Rangers, and now he’s gone all bad again with the Red Sox and then with the Brewers.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Aug 20, 2008 5:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

3 years

2002 to 2004.

In those three years he accumulated 152 saves. Outside those years, before (0) and after, he has 35 total never topping 16 in any season.

btw, had 16 saves in 34 appearances with Tex and was traded to Bos where he wasn’t a closer. And that season came 3 years after his last good season. In between he was hurt and posted save totals of 1 and 8.

1999: 0
2000: 0
2001: 0
2002: 52
2003: 55
2004: 45
2005: 8
2006: 1
2007: 16
2008: 10 (so far and he’s not the closer anymore)

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 6:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sutter's peak was far better

he was in the top 10 in MVP voting five times, won a Cy Young award and was in the top six five addtional times. Also a six-time All-star.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 20, 2008 5:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't have an axe to grind with Izzy

but retiring his number would be wrong. Isn’t Kenny Boyer the only retired number that doesn’t belong to a HOFer? Izzy isn’t going to the Hall. I would rather see Willie McGee’s number retired first. At least he was a key member of a world championship team, unlike Izzy.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 20, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, we really have no business talking about retiring ANY numbers

until 51 hangs on the wall.

Willie was bigger than numbers and whatever.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 2:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

izzy as future bullpen coach? could be fun...

“son, what the hell are you doing? you don’t go in there and strike out everybody and their dog too. no no no, you gotta mix in some suspense! walk a guy or two, give up a lead-off double, make things interesting! the fans might complain about you constantly but trust me, deep down they all want good entertainment.”

by mattybobo on Aug 20, 2008 12:33 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

unfair

It’s completely unfair to say Eckstein or Looper were bad or even just “average” signings. Despite what the numbers say, I would definitely say Eckstein was an above average shortstop for his first 2 years, and oh yea, also was a huge part in us winning a world series. Looper was not great, but good and serviceable, in his one year in our bullpen. Last year, his first year ever as a starter, he learned on the job, and while he wasn’t great, he gave us innings. And this year, you could easily make the argument that he’s been our most consistent starter. Neither one of these players were given big money, so I don’t see how anyone could possibly say that these were poor contracts given to declining players.

by mk1lynx on Aug 20, 2008 1:03 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how does one define average 'despite numbers'

i guess the numbers don’t account for the grit factor

by FunkeeC on Aug 20, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m just saying when I look back at Eckstein’s time with us, I’m not going to say “well he was an average player. Didn’t really offer us any more than any other major league player could have.” I’m going to remember a guy who did an excellent job of doing whatever it took to win games, despite what all of the sabermetric and crazy numbers say. I’m not saying the guy was a hall of famer or even an all-star, but in a way he was perfect for our team.

My whole point is that to say that Eckstein’s contract was bad a bad one would be ridiculous. He cost little in terms of money (relatively speaking), and wasn’t blocking any stud prospect. So to group him or Looper in with other bad contracts would be downright silly.

by mk1lynx on Aug 20, 2008 2:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He single handely won a game for us in Chicago

On the over-slide by Cedeno, the umpire called him safe and Eckstein was the only one on the field who was aware of the rule.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 2:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Late game

Cards were leading by one I think with Cedeno at first. He steals 2nd on a ball four to Ramirez or somebody and Yadi throws down anyway. Cedeno slides in head first and slightly over slides the bag (his foot came off by like two inches) with Eckstein still applying the tag.

Anyway, ump calls him safe since it was ball four and Eck goes ape shit. Basically, on ball four you get to advance to the next base if your on first, right? Well, if you come off the bag or make any attempt to advance past the bag, it’s a live play. Bascially, you get the next base and that’s it, go over 1 inch and you’re in play.

The ump realized this rather quickly once Eck argued and reversed the call. Lou then went ape shit, but there really wasn’t an argument to be made. Cedeno was awarded 2nd base but since he overslid the bag, he was in play. Eck was fully aware of this, kept the tag on and then immediately argued the call. I can remember saying “wtf, Eck? Of course he get the base on ball 4. Why are you arguing?” And then I learned something.

Here’s the pic.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 5:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is that who I think it is in the back ground?

Mr. Grit, Aaron Miles…………..

He probably told Eck to tag Ronny!

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 5:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

His grit pulled Ronny of the bag.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 5:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks

Definitely a heads up play.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 21, 2008 12:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually

Braden Looper’s 7 innings of great pitching and Preston Wilson’s homerun won us that game. But, again, Eckstein is ‘scrappy’ so that’s what people remember.

:D

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 20, 2008 7:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah,

I was being over-dramatic for effect.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 8:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

...not using anything to measure a player by is downright silly.

Check this out: I think that Mario Mendoza was a good player…despite the numbers.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Aug 20, 2008 2:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good point. Bravo.

by mk1lynx on Aug 20, 2008 2:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sarcastic cat is clearly superior.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Aug 20, 2008 2:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the numbers agree, somewhat

eckstein was a 6.1 WARP1 player in 2005, and ranked #8/20 among qualified SS by OPS+ in ‘05 . He wasn’t as good in 2006 and 2007, with both offense and fielding declined precipitously, well below average in both, but for that first year he was a tremendous boost, roughly as valuable to the 2005 team as troy glaus has been to this one.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 20, 2008 2:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

which is to say, as was said at the time

that while we should have signed him to a 1 yr deal we have him 3 when if i remember correctly there was no competition for his services at the time

by FunkeeC on Aug 20, 2008 2:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So he was useless to us in 2006? I guess his being a key cog in a team that won the World Series was pretty much useless.

by mk1lynx on Aug 20, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

was he a key cog?

I seem to remember him missing about a quarter of the season with various injuries and being awful at the plate when he was able to play. His offense in ’06 was only slightly better than what kennedy has done this year.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 20, 2008 2:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But he was the MVP!!!

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Aug 20, 2008 2:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Absolutely he was a key cog. At the very least he was key for the playoff run. I’m not even a huge Eckstein fan, but I’m not going to sit here and act like he wasn’t a quality contributor to our World Series win. And then comparing him to Kennedy? Come on now. Be realistic. To say we could’ve thrown another average-to-below average player in his place in 2006 and come up with the same results would not be anywhere near true.

by mk1lynx on Aug 20, 2008 2:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

actually thats EXACTLY what is meant by his being league average

that means that he performed at exactly the place where another average SS would provide the same performance. but they probably wouldn’t be as white and gritty as Eck

by FunkeeC on Aug 20, 2008 2:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At least key to the playoff run

So was Jeff Weaver, but that doesn’t make his regular season above average.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But it more than makes the salary we paid him worth it.

by mk1lynx on Aug 20, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Way to back up your argument…by bringing race into the conversation. And since Eckstein was a bad signing, going back in time, who would you have had playing shortstop those years and what would you have paid them?

by mk1lynx on Aug 20, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's a common arguement on the internet

that ‘gritty’ or other adjectives applied to guys like Eckstein, Hansborough, etc is code word for “white and not the most talented at their position”.

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 20, 2008 3:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think the "white" part is overblown

though admittedly i have trouble coming up with examples of players who aren’t white and who are described as “gritty”. eckstein, miles, erstad (.355/.409/.541 in 2000? what the hell???), the list goes on and on.
however, there are plenty of similar but not exactly “gritty” players who aren’t white; guys like juan pierre, cory patterson, michael bourn. instead of “gritty”, they are “speedy”.
our own izturis is rarely described as gritty, but his backers forgive him because of his awesome defense.
in other words, i think whiteness maybe be essential for “grittiness” but it’s not essential for a player to be below average and still irrationally favored.

by mattybobo on Aug 20, 2008 3:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Grinders

Listen to Boers and Bernstein on 670 the score 2pm -6pm Mon-Friday and you will hear them make fun of grinders. aka…grit players.

1a. Aaron Rowand
1b. Darrin Erstad
2. Ryan Theriot

Look Grit and playing hard is never described to take about no white palyers as far as I can tell… I have no idea why but apparently only white palyers “play hard” and are “smart”
or at least lauded for it in the media.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 3:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow....

sloppy…

People generally do not tak about grit or grinding when describing non white players.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 3:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh. i think i actually argued against my original point in my post.

you’re right. it seems like there is a bias towards awarding this virtue to white players who aren’t all that good. at least my non-white examples of bourn and pierre are fast, and iz2 really is a great defender—they at least excel at something. gritty guys don’t seem to have to excel at anything.
another thought; pujols is very “baseball smart”, certainly grinds it out, plays through pain, plays great d, and does lots of “little things” and provides “intangibles”—and he’s never ever called gritty!

by mattybobo on Aug 20, 2008 3:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gritty or scrappy guys excel

at stuff like ‘hustling’, ‘battling’, ‘giving all they’ve got’.

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 20, 2008 3:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you forgot "being a gamer"

and “being a ballplayer”.
i really wanted to believe that whiteness did not contribute to the “gritty” bias, because i hate how race is thrown around so much in this politically correct world of ours, hence my original thought that it was overblown… but alas, i can’t really convince myself that that is true.

by mattybobo on Aug 20, 2008 3:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How to be Scrappy

Learn from the best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJD8k2hgRmU&feature=related

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 5:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They are probably the best at being

“heady”

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 20, 2008 5:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pujols

is a superstar. You hardly ever hear any superstar being described as gritty regardless of race.

However, I cannot think of a non-white player being described as gritty.

by CardFaninTTown on Aug 20, 2008 4:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i wasn't trying to make a racial point with pujols, actually

totally understand why it looks like i was though. i was just trying to point out that someone as all-around excellent as pujols is never called gritty even though he does all the classic gritty things. only players who lack overall excellence are.

by mattybobo on Aug 20, 2008 4:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've never heard a guy

who wasn’t white be referred to as “gritty” or some version thereof. Name 1 player w/ that sort of “Rex Hudler” image who isn’t white. I don’t think it can be done.

by chuckb on Aug 20, 2008 5:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Otis Nixon?

Or is he just ugly?

Juan Pierre used to get some “ballplayer” love, but I think even the main stream media has realized he sucks.

Some of the old non-white Cards utility guys — Oquendo, Alicea — would probably qualify as gritty.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Aug 20, 2008 5:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"the playoff run"?

Are we talking about the same guy? He was great in the 24 PA’s he had in september (5 games started and 2 ph appearances), but missed the last 2 weeks of august and two thirds of september. It’s pretty safe to say that we DID replace him with another average-to-below average player, because we went 14-12 with Miles at SS while he was unavailable in the stretch run.

And he was not exactly irreplacable in the NLDS/NLCS, batting .133 (2/15) with no xbh in the nlds and .233 in the nlcs (with a home run in a game we lost 12-5). He had no rbi’s, one xbh and 1 run scored in NLDS games that we won. Pretty sure even izturis has the potential to do that.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 20, 2008 3:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nlcs games that we won

for some reason i always get those acronyms reversed.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 20, 2008 3:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he had a few key hits in the world series.

didn’t adam kennedy hit like, 11 homeruns for the angels in one of their postseason series?

by mattybobo on Aug 20, 2008 3:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If those numbers are true…than you’re right in saying he wasn’t as valuable during that run as I thought he was, although he still had an excellent World Series. But that does not change my argument that he still turned out to be worth every penny we paid him over those 3 years, thus making it a good contract.

My argument isn’t that Eckstein was a great player, simply that his contract was far from being a bad one.

by mk1lynx on Aug 20, 2008 3:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ecks contract was fine.

And STL made a great move by not letting him come back for 2008.

He was detriorationg right when he deal was essentially coming to an end. No harm with his deal.

You have to pay a bit over price to get players. Guys don’t go to the lowest bidder.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 3:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree that we did the right thing by cutting bait after last year.

by mk1lynx on Aug 20, 2008 3:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Eckstein

played well in the series, but he struggled to stay healthy and in the line-up. And his decline in defense seems to have coincided with our nearly monumentous collapse that year. That was an 83 win club that won the world series. While we won it, that team caught lightning in a bottle. It is hard to support Eck’s play that year overall or in 2007.

Who would have been playing if not Eck? I do not know. Which may be the best answer for why his contract was acceptable.

by CardFaninTTown on Aug 20, 2008 4:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

though he would have been much more expensive in '06

if he had only signed a 1Y deal in ’05 and then recompeted. The 1Y deal might have been more expensive as well.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 20, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the point

isn’t to devalue their obviously necessary contributions to the team. “average” is just to compare them to the other possibilities on the marketplace. Surely it takes great skill, concentration, and personal fortitude that that vast majority of individuals lack, but these are qualities that many major league caliber players possess. If they don’t, then they made up for it with uncommon physical gifts. The point being that an “average” MLB player is basically superhuman compared to the rest of us schmoes, but the same production could quickly be found among that elite group. That label certainly isn’t a knock on the individuals, which is something that is often lost in this and other circles.

by spencegrif on Aug 20, 2008 1:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

disagree

“the same production could quickly be found among that elite group” <- not true. The guys over at Baseball Prospectus have proven that league-average players are very valuable to the team, and are NOT easy to find, since about two-thirds of major league players are below average. I think you may be confusing “replacement” with “average”. Someone in one of the posts above made the same mistake, implying that we could have gotten Eckstein’s “league average” performance for very low cost… it doesn’t usually work that way.

"I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order. Like they should be."

by BigMOman on Aug 20, 2008 3:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right

Average is often used as a slam, but it need not be. It really depends on what you paid for average. Average is not found in every farm system. It wasn’t available in ours in any great quantity until recently, in my estimation.

So to me Looper’s been worth the money. Overall, Izzy was too. Eckstein earned his contract, which was pretty reasonable. Encarnacion got a bad rap by many, I felt, but clearly had things beyond his control make him a sunk cost. And, of course, Kennedy is awful.

Overall they did ok in the FA market. The real sin was in not having options from the farm that you could count on long term. I look at B-ref and see names like Gall, Seabol, Daubach, Hanson, Rico, John Nelson, Kevin Jarvis…….on and on it goes. Quad A filler at every turn.

When that’s the alternative you have to pay market rates for league average talent. And that’s what happened.

by Merry CRasmus on Aug 20, 2008 5:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

GMing 101

It’s okay to pay big money for big talent…it’s the over priced mediocrity that destroys teams.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Aug 20, 2008 1:55 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At the point when he was signed

Zito was more of a big reputation, big diminishing talent.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Aug 20, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And that is a even bigger problem

Than over paying for replacement level. Is overpaying for big talent and getting replacement level or lower aka Andrew Jones

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 20, 2008 2:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah but it's not like you can predict epic meltdowns.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Aug 20, 2008 2:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Last year

Andruw Jones’ line: .222/.311/.413 88 OPS+

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 20, 2008 2:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was speaking in general....

I don’t know how I quite feel about shelling out big bucks to former talent in hopes their decline was only temporary….

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Aug 20, 2008 2:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OT - La Russa, the dog-lover

My gf is moving for work and needs a temporary home for her Llaso Apsa until she gets a dog-friendly apartment.

I assume I can just take him on down to batting practice tonight and hand him off to Tony, right?

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Aug 20, 2008 2:15 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

but don’t be surprised if Tony puts him in the bullpen. It seems that is where Tony is putting everything these days, whether it makes sense or not.

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 20, 2008 2:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

brad thompson

is in the bullpen right now, so it could be justified in the post-game news conference:

“Brad has experience with puppies, and experience is very important.”

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 20, 2008 2:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The new The Odd Couple

One’s a dog, one’s a puppy-kicker. And their forced to coexist in the same bullpen. Tempers will flare, lines will be drawn and hilarity will surely ensue. On the NEW Odd Couple.

dun-da-da-da-Daa, dun-da-daa-dun-da-Daa-daa.

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Aug 20, 2008 2:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mo does "tend to agree" that Wainwright should be a starter

http://www.stltoday.com/discussions/sports/cards-live/LD081808451/all

This chat was more informative than most. Other tidbits:

**Wallace will be playing in the AFL

**he does see the need to add another starter and a middle infielder in the offseason, and seems to be looking toward signing free agents to accomplish those goals

**there is a “strong possiblity” that Miles will be back next year

**it is likely that no one will be called up to replace Izzy until Friday

by tdawg on Aug 20, 2008 2:33 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

also

from his word choice, there seems to be little chance that Isringhausen will be back with the team even if he decides to make a run at it next year — “It is a disappointing ending but if he decides to pitch again, I only wish him the best.”

by tdawg on Aug 20, 2008 2:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wallace...

to the Arena Football League?!? Noooooo! :)

by stlfan on Aug 20, 2008 2:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Arizona Fall League?

About the AFL

There are a total of six clubs in the AFL, each with players drawn from five MLB organizations. Rosters are filled in draft style with organizations working together to ensure all teams have a complete roster.

All AFL teams play in MLB spring training parks located in the Phoenix area. Games are held six days a week, with Sundays off.

 anybody here (VEB) live in the Phoenix area?

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 20, 2008 2:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks

I was just kidding about the AFL and all (thus the smiley), but that’s more than I knew about the AFL…thanks!

by stlfan on Aug 20, 2008 3:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I knew you were kidding

but darn if I knew what AFL stood for….. though a small amount of brain cells thought “Arizona”…… google did the rest.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 20, 2008 3:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

**there is a "strong possiblity" that Miles will be back next year

After reading that I assume there is a strong possiblity that Tony will be back too.

by KYCards on Aug 20, 2008 2:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd say that's a given.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not sure about that.

If Duncan returns and Mo makes some strong moves, he will be back. If not, Tony make take his roadshow to Cincy.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 20, 2008 4:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like this answer...

Q:Do you see the SS position as a position where you are willing to accept below league average offense in exhcange for above league average defense?

A:I would prefer above average offense and above average defense…that is much more desirable.

For some reason, I think he has something up his sleeve…

by stlfan on Aug 20, 2008 2:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

...or he just wanted to be a smart ass

and make sure people knew he understood the concept of light hitting defensive players vs good players.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Aug 20, 2008 2:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Of course that's what he would prefer...

I would prefer to have Pujolsian offense and defense at all nine positions, but that just isn’t likely…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 20, 2008 4:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Per Mo - it is likely that no one will be called up to replace Izzy until Friday

Underlying meaning A: Wainwright will re-enter the rotation, forgoing an additional rehab start, and, with the assurance of a quality arm relieving strain on the bullpen, the Cardinals will add-by-subtraction from the bullpen.

Underlying meaning B: Wainwright will rejoin the club, literally replacing Izzy — be that in a long relief or closing scenario. The club will then go into a prolonged funk, giving Wainwright ample innings to pitch, but primarily in mop-up situations, resulting in good outings for Adam but ultimately losses for the Cardinals.

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Aug 20, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Meaning Wainwright

I took it to mean Wainwright getting the call and, when coupled with Mo’s opening comment on Wainwright, it to mean that Wainwright would join the rotation. But, that interpretation is clouded by my hopes…

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 20, 2008 3:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Another question to Mo

concerns the rotation for next year, to which he responds that yes, with Carpenter, Wainwright, Wellemeyer and Pineiro, it would behoove the club (paraphrasing — since last time I checked, nobody uses ‘behoove’ anymore) to go after a fifth starer.

He goes on to speak quickly about Boggs. I know the four listed are the only certainties, but it’s interesting that, while mentioning Boggs as a possible, he doesn’t mention the possibility of Looper being re-signed. GM chess match, maybe — feigning disinterest in order to improve position?

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Aug 20, 2008 3:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well that list only includes guys who are around for sure

The only odd ommision would be not discussing Garcia as a possible starter along with Boggs for the 5th spot.

Looper needs to be signed to be back so Mo just left him out of the discussion for now as he is not guaranteed to be around in 2009 at this particular time.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 3:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that makes it sound like Garcia will be in the minors next year?

or are they making him into a reliever?

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 20, 2008 4:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's messy

I don’t know if you can just count on Carp being healthy in 2009….

I think TLR and Dunc like Garcia… It’s just a question about maybe he is a better pen guy in 2009 so you can lose Flores and Villone… I don’t know if Johnson will be back an worth a darn. I think over time things will shake up, probably hard to have any idea right now.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 5:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 20, 2008 5:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Note Strauss's comment, too

He thinks they will pick up a veteran arm for the bottom of the rotation. He sort of hinted that Looper may get an extension also.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 20, 2008 4:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Are we going to an 8 man rotation?

If that is how they plan on spending the $30 M+ they will have in the off-season, more of the same, I’m going to puke.

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 20, 2008 4:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No bottom of the rotation guys......

We have those guys here already. Why spend what it will cost for a bottom guy-I want CC…I want Ben Sheets, the kind of pitcher that can make a difference, keep you in the game and stop the bleeding, strike out guys at will. I am wary of penciling Carpenter in. He and Mark Mulder turned into our version of Prior/Wood right before our eyes.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Aug 20, 2008 6:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you don't like Mulder then you won't like Sheets

Between ‘02 and ’04 he started 34 games. Since then he’s gone 22, 17, 24 and 25 this year. I wouldn’t want to sign up for the 4 or 5 years he’ll demand with his history of injuries.

I get your point of wanting a top of the rotation guy, but those are real hard to get and expose the club to a ton of risk.

by birdo rojo on Aug 20, 2008 6:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I understand there is a risk.

The Cubs are going to keep buying the pitching talent they need, the Brewers are in a position to trade for the pitching talent they need. Not to mention the Reds have a bunch of young mound talent that has a very good chance of getting better. I just don’t think it’s unreasonable as a fan to want the Cardinals to at least ask what Sheets and CC want.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Aug 20, 2008 9:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yadi

I was not around for game threads last night, nor do I think I want to be. I did not go back through them because I haven’t wanted to at all after reading through the last few tough losses. In any case, I’m sure there was talk about this…but how long does everyone think that it has been since Yadier has had an inning like that? A questionable decision throwing to third on the bunt. A dropped throw home. I thought there was something else as well…anyway. My guess is, it’s been since little leagues.

I just hope it is not something more than one bad inning. Here’s to forgetting all about it because of him throwing out 2 runners and making an unreal block on a beautiful slider by Chris Perez in the 9th inning of a save tonight…

by stlfan on Aug 20, 2008 3:06 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The other one was

the overthrow of the plate (with the pitcher backing up) and Yadi running around in circles while the guy is coming home to score.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 3:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

quots like this have to trouble Lboros

because they sure trouble me. i can’t believe people actually avoid the game threads. i know most of my posts are in them, but thats because a lot of the day threads are filled with a ton of number crunching & honestly, numbers make my head spin. i dont feel like i have the proper brain power to add thoughtful and insightful comments to a lot of the day threads, so i just read them & try to become a better more informed fan.

i hope i am not the reason any one avoids the game threads. i personally feel they are a lot of fun, and even though there are times when some, but not all go bat crap crazy, for the most part every one keeps their wits about them. and when someone does cross the line, more than one will jump in & tell the person to chill. i maybe overreacting here, but because most of my posts come in the game threads, i feel that if any one looks down on them & avoids them, it reflects poorly on me. and i just hate the thought of any one here having a poor opinion of me.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Aug 20, 2008 3:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I avoid the game threads because:

*I can’t watch the game objectively and keep up with the thread.
*There’s too much knee-jerk reaction going on that can’t properly be dealt with even-handedly.
*I don’t care to read other people’s raw emotional reactions when something bad happens.

This next bit sums up why I don’t post in the game threads or read them afterwards.

I have had season tickets to Iowa State basketball games for the past 6 years. I could get really good seats, but I like to sit in the balcony at mid-court because I get a better view of the game. For the last 3 years, I have put up with people behind me bitching about the officiating constantly. These people were literally screaming at the officials during a 27 point blow-out at the hands of future National Champ Kansas, as if the officiating (which, if anything, favored the home team most of the game) was the reason why we were getting our heads kicked in by the best team in the country. They never criticize players, only coaches and officials. I’ve gotten so fed up with it that I changed my season ticket package and took seats on the other side of the arena to get away from them. It’s unbearable to listen to blatant emotional homerism when things don’t go the way you think they ought to for your team. It’s the same reason why I can’t listen to Santo when my girlfriend listens to Cubs radio broadcasts. Cubs fans seem to love him, but I’ll take Shannon and his quirky anecdotes and levelheadedness any day rather than hear Ron come crashing down each and every time the Cubs don’t play well.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 20, 2008 4:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Well said

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 20, 2008 6:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

really? you understood that?

i don’t get where he was going with that.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Aug 20, 2008 6:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Go Cyclones!

You live in Ames? That’s my hometown.

by birdo rojo on Aug 20, 2008 6:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let me rephrase

I do not avoid game threads, but I do not actively search them out when we have had a bad loss. I know that tempers run high and that I occasionally let some profanity flow myself.

by stlfan on Aug 20, 2008 4:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you are not the reason I avoid the game threads

no one person is the reason I avoid the game threads. Sometimes I just can’t stand some of the stuff I read there. I think anyone who’s ever perused a game thread knows what I mean. Every now and then I drop by but, if I feel like it’s going to get ugly, I’m going to stay away.

Since Izzy’ll soon be going on the DL, the game threads may actually improve.

by chuckb on Aug 20, 2008 5:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From John Perotto of Baseball Prospectus (quoting a scout):

Cardinals catcher Yadier Molina: “His defense has slipped this year. I can’t put my finger on exactly why, but he’s not quite as mobile behind the plate as before, and his throwing has definitely dropped a notch. He’s too young to be in decline, so maybe it’s just a bad year.”

Link here (subscription required)

by holden on Aug 20, 2008 3:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wow

that is blasphemous, isnt it? i am not a scout, although i do like to play pretend, but i have seen Yadi make some of his best throws this year (like the one against the Uggla in the 9th a few days back on the bad offspeed pitch from Perez). of course that doesnt mean is arm hasnt dropped overall but i have no complaints

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 20, 2008 3:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hummmm....

I watch a lot of Cardinals games. Nothing has really jumped out to me, but there are a ton of things you can’t pick up from watching on TV.. You have to be close to the field like the scouts.

I don’t take this a horrible. Maybe Yadi has lost a bit of the arm strength, but that still could mean he is a top 3 defensive catcher. Maybe the concussion and being banged up a bit early in the year has taken a toll on him.

FYI people- stop talking crap when TLR has Larue in the line up, maybe Yadi needs an extra day off from time to time.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 3:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the scales have tipped in the direction of offense

maybe he’s just spending more time on hitting than on defense in practice this season

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 20, 2008 4:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

seems like MIF's are missing a lot of catchable balls this year

but that’s just anecdotal and could be confirmation bias on my part.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 20, 2008 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

this touches on a subject that I feel is overlooked.

Defense is like any other part of the game. For what ever reason we all accept that a player can have a good season hitting or a bad season hitting…and we know pitcher have good seasons pitching and bad seasons pitching. For whatever reason rarely do I hear that a player is having a good season with the glove or having a down year with the glove. It’s possible Yadi is having a down year with the glove. I for one can’t say that there is no way he is right…but I would say it is possible.

Lopez for example may be a better 2B than we think because when we saw him he was having a down year (this is an example I am not saying Lopez is good or bad with the glove.) The problem is that we just say this guy isn’t a good fielder without thinking that maybe he is peeking with the glove..or this players glove took a major turn up or down. I just think we should be open to the fact that a players fielding ability is like any other part of the game and is not constant.

by Harknights on Aug 20, 2008 4:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe Yadi

will finally get a gold glove this year since his defense has slipped, but his offense is better

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 20, 2008 6:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From Strauss-Live - Re: Wainwright's Velocity

Joe was kind enough to answer my question:

cardsfaninmass78: Dear Chatmeister [insert groveling praise alluding to a cataclysmic ocean disaster here]-

Any word on Wainwright’s velocity? It has been an eerily absent item in the otherwise brilliant reports of his rehab outings in your great paper . Apparently his command is improving (for all pitches – even uncle charlie), but that might not much matter if his velocity is down.
Joe Strauss: Waino made a point to lower expectations about his velocity following Tuesday’s throw, suggesting he will pitch “like Tom Glavine” when he is activated. That would suggest greater reliance on breaking and off-speed stuff while his velocity gradually increases. The good news is that Wainwright insists he is throwing without having to max out his effort.

Interesting. As long as it does in fact gradually increase. I’m not sure how effective he can be as “Tom Glavine”.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 20, 2008 3:25 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think he was just indicating

he wasn’t at full-strength yet. Kind of a smart-ass comment, since he’s obviously not quite as good as Glavine—at least not yet.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 20, 2008 4:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The 30 year-old Glavine

or the creaky, old current version?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 20, 2008 6:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wanted to trade for Carlos Quentin

and he’s going to be the AL MVP…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 20, 2008 4:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's a fun player to watch. RB wanted him too.

In fact, the whole White Sox team is really interesting-a nice blend of talent, they have there. Jermaine Dye is also having a really fine year for them.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Aug 20, 2008 6:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Never?

Well that changed.

Unless you’re talking about Asian players and I’d like you to name more than 3 that weren’t grossly overpaid and were any good for an extended period of time. (btw, I’m spotting you Ichiro, Matsui, and Nomo).

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 8:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Alexi

that guy is really really good… I watch a bunch of Sox games and he makes some absolutely amazing plays. Some are so quick a not noticible they don’t make the Sports Center highlights

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 3:45 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

everything i have read on Alexi

suggests he doesnt get on-base and wont be able to stick at SS…i have not seen him so i have no idea, if that is true or not.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 20, 2008 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but i would take a 110 OPS+ from our SS right now

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 20, 2008 3:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

id take 110 from my 2B too

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 20, 2008 4:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But he's gonna play ss next year when they let Cabrera walk.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 20, 2008 5:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Alexi

He has a .330 OBP/.823 OPS and potential to hit 20 HR this year.

He is going to be 27 in September.

He does appear to be a free swinger. He is lean but I don’t want to call him skinny as when you say skinny people think weak. Think of Alfonso Sorriano a couple years ago when he was a bit leaner but had good pop. Alexi seems to not have quite the pop Alfonso does but he has a ton of pop when you look at his build.

He did not play one minor league inning and has the potential to hit 20 HR this year. People around here compared Cuban ball to AA so he came from AA to MLB and can probably get close to 20 HR.

By all accounts the White Sox players say the plays he made while playing SS in Spring Training were absolutely ridiculos. SS is his best position by all accounts. He has a cannon for an arm too.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 4:05 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he's a pretty awful 2B, by RZR

worst in the american league, and by a wide margin.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 20, 2008 4:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2B.....not his natural position.

He is a SS first and foremost.

I know it sounds silly but theres a big difference going from SS to 2B. The ball just come off the bat odd from that side of the field.

I don’t know how well he ranges at 2B, but it appears he relies on his arm a great deal to make up for bad angles and what not.

I am not saying he is the greatest player in the world at this point but he is pretty damb good. He is adjusting to playing MLB and 2B while playing on a 1st place team in a media heavy city.

He is far and away better than anything STL can throw out at SS or 2B in my opinion.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 4:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He played some CF

for Team Cuba as well. He’s a phenomenal talent that is making about the same over these 4 years than Kippersley made in 1 year here.

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 20, 2008 4:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oh, i agree

he’s a good player, at least offensively. And I was on the “sign alexei” bandwagon very early on, and was very disappointed it didn’t happen. At the very least, he was free talent (in terms of prospects) that could be traded for something if he didn’t work out in the MIF.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 20, 2008 4:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you are better with the stats

I wonder is Alexi has improved the more he has played 2B. I know early in the year he was in and out of the line up not getting consistant AB’s or field time. I think Juan Uribe got hurt and it opened up more PT and Alexi has not looked back since.

Yeah he was cheap and is putting up some good numbers.

Now he seems to have “potential” I always find it funny when people say Brendan Ryan has more “potential” than Izturis. I don’t get that argument only other than Izturis had his break out year in 2004 which appears to be more of a fluke and B. Ryan has not had a fluke break out year so he still has “potential”

The Cards had a chance to take a chance on a possible difference maker and pased. They wanted to sign IZ2, rely on Kennedy to rebound, brought Miles back, and decided to promote B.Ryan despite him smashing his minor league norm in a short stint in the show.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 20, 2008 4:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rams News (FYI)

Jackson to report report to camp.

No new contract, but holdout is over.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 20, 2008 4:07 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hate hold outs

I used to love football when I was younger but as I have gotten older I appreciate baseball more. Football doesn’t even come into play until baseball is over with.

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 20, 2008 4:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I much the same way

a little less extreme. I don’t even really know who’s all on the team for sure until opening day. that said, if there was a cards game on at the same time as my football team, I’d watch baseball for sure.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 20, 2008 4:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs