Don't Know What You Got
by the red baron on Aug 2, 2008 11:47 AM EDT
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PrintLadies and Gentlemen, I may just be falling for Joe Mather. Look, it's not a big deal or anything, I just wanted to get that out of the way. I mean, it's not like I literally love him or anything. It's just that every time he goes up to the plate, I get this weird, fluttering feeling in my stomach and-
Wow. Sorry, everybody. I think I must have blacked out there for a second. What do you say we move on to safer, less disturbing topics?
I have to admit, even though I've been firmly in the don't-trade-away-your-prospects-for-veteran-rental-talent camp, I was a little disappointed when the trade deadline passed without the Cardinals obtaining at least some sort of assistance for the relief corps. Then, of course, you look at the price that a guy like Brian Fuentes was likely going to command, and there's no getting around the fact that it just wasn't worth it.
What I find interesting is just how many people are up in arms over the Cards' failure to add an impact bat. All I keep hearing (not around here so much, but over at the P-D boards and on sports radio, etc.), from a lot of fans is how the Cardinals needed to get some protection for Albert. Even ignoring how fuzzy a concept 'lineup protection' is, and the fact that there simply aren't any hitters more intimidating than Albert anyway, this particular line of thinking is very puzzling to me.
We all know that there weren't any run producing middle infielders on the market. Thus, any offensive upgrade would likely have had to come in the outfield. The thing is, when you look at most of the outfielders being considered, they were almost all right handed hitting corner outfielders. What that means, of course, is that the player who most likely would have had his playing time most affected by any new acquisition would have been Ryan Ludwick. With that in mind, I wanted to look at some of the numbers, just to try and get an idea of how much of an upgrade replacing Luddy with one of the so called big bats on the market would truly represent. Now, I do realise that it's also possible you could have replaced Skip Schumaker instead of Ludwick, but with Schumaker's proclivity for hitting righthanded pitching and his defensive aptitude, you're going to see Schumaker quite a bit no matter what. So even if you were to try and replace Schu rather than Ludwick, you would then most likely see Skip replacing Ludwick several times a week. Either way, I think Ludwick would have ended up being the one to have his playing time cut if the Cards had brought in another outfielder.
First off, here's Ludwick's line for the season:
| PA | H | BB | HR | AVG | OBP | SLG | OPS |
| 409 | 107 | 43 | 25 | .303 | .381 | .598 | .979 |
Not too shabby, eh? Above average defense in either outfield corner, an OPS near 1.000, and all of that for a little over four hundred thousand dollars. Ludwick may be the biggest bargain in all of baseball this season.
Okay. Now let's look at some of the biggest names on the trade market this year, and see just how much of an upgrade they would really have represented.
I heard some rumblings here and there on Thursday that maybe the Cardinals should go out and get Manny Ramirez. Never mind the fact that he beats up senior team employees and occasionally just has to take a call during the game, Manny's one of the all time greats with a bat in his hands, right? Well, yes, he is. He also happens to be one of the worst defensive outfielders to ever go tumbling across the ground, so Ludwick has a pretty significant advantage there.
The numbers for Manny? He's putting up a .299/.398/.529 slash line, for a .927 OPS. So, for the three or four top prospects that you would have had to give the Sawx to get him, you could have had the pleasure of giving up fifty two points of OPS, plus the huge defensive downgrade you would be looking at with Manny manning left field. Boston is paying the rest of Manny's salary this season, so it's entirely possible you could have knocked a prospect off the package and taken on the salary, but that's a pretty serious chunk of change. I'm not sure exactly what the prorated portion of $20 million would be right now, but it's certainly more than Ludwick's salary for the entire year.
What about Jason Bay? Bay will actually be replacing Manny in left field in Boston, having been dealt from the Pirates to the Red Sox. We Cardinal fans have long had a fascination with Jason Bay, and it's fairly obvious to see why. Since he plays for the Pirates, we have to see him put up his numbers in person quite often, and a ton of those numbers have, unfortunately, come against the Cards. I remember in 2005, I believe, there was a huge clamour for the Cardinals to try and go acquire Bay, with Jason Marquis being the name most often mentioned as part of a package to get the Canadian outfielder. At the time, I would have wept tears of joy if Jocketty could have pulled off a deal like that. Now, though?
Bay's slash stats look like this: .282/.375/.519. That's an OPS of 894, a full eighty five points less than what Ludwick is doing this year. Bay does have a fairly reasonable contract, with a salary of $5.75 million this season. He's also signed for next year, at a cost of $7.5 million. Of course, that advantageous contract also made Bay expensive to acquire. The Pirates received four players in return for Bay, two each from the Dodgers and the Red Sox. Andy LaRoche, Brandon Moss, Bryan Morris, and Craig Hansen are the players; a comparable package from the Cards might be Bryan Anderson, Joe Mather, Chris Perez, and a Brad Thompson/ Mike Parisi type. To me, that's way too much to give up for a net loss of 85 OPS points.
Look, the idea of Matt Holliday was really, really exciting, I know. The guy is one of the most frightening young sluggers in the game. He's only twenty eight years old, so he's obviously in the prime of his career. Of course, he's also making $13.5 million this season and is a free agent after the year, so you would have to pony up some serious, serious dough to resign him. Oh, and also? His agent just happens to be Scott Boras, so count on that number going even higher.
Holliday has a slash line of .342/.428/.573 this season. Ah, now we're getting somewhere. That's an OPS of 1.001. Finally, a player who's actually hitting better than Ludwick. Of course, we're talking about 22 points of OPS, so it's not a huge amount, but still.
Unfortunately, Holliday's numbers do come with that one huge caveat: his home/away splits. Holliday plays in Coors Field, which is no longer the hitter's paradise it once was, but still tends to favour those with a bat in their hands. Holliday's OPS at Coors Field this season is 1.129, which is okay, I guess. However, his OPS on the road is 862, a full 250 points lower, and over a hundred points lower than Ludwick's. What's really worrisome about that is the loss of SLG%. Holliday loses a full 200 points of SLG on the road, going from a .677 to a .460.
Now, of course, a lot of people are going to say that it's just the fact that he's playing at home, that he's just one of those guys who hits better in his home ballpark. I'm willing to buy that, to a point. Say he goes elsewhere and his numbers start to normalise some. There is some evidence that Coors hitters struggle on the road for some reason, so maybe his road splits come up a bit. I would still expect his home OPS to drop by 50-100 points. Even if he improved his road OPS by a full 50 points, that still makes him barely a better hitter than Ryan Ludwick this season. Add in the fact that you would have to break the bank if you wanted to keep him around, plus the hassle of a Scott Boras negotiation, and I just don't think it would be worth it.
Look, I know this is ground that has been mostly covered already. But watching Ryan Ludwick play last night, I was struck by just how underrated he is. The kind of production he has given the Cardinals, for an absolute bargain basement cost, makes him an unbelievably valuable player. I admit, I always saw him as mostly a fourth outfielder, even after he started off hot this year. I have to say, though, he looks like the real deal to me now. And still there is angst all over the place that the Cards didn't go out and get a legitimate bat. As I said earlier, of all the outfielders the Cardinals currently have on the roster, Ludwick would most likely have been in line to lose playing time.
Ludwick is under club control for a couple more years, he's affordable, he plays above average defense (though he doesn't do sliding catches very well), and if he isn't a legitimate bat, then I don't know what is.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I just don't understand what people are looking for. Ludwick has been one of the best outfielders in the game this season. Personally, I don't know that there is an upgrade out there, no matter what you were willing to pay.
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yep.
the only protection yo’re goign to find for albert that is beter than Ludwick, Ankiel and Glaus is a MVP-style bat.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I'm more than content with the non-moves at the deadline
(especially w/ Garcia being recalled. Hopefully Perez will be up soon again, too and Motte in Sep), But I still wonder what the asking prices for Peralta and Renteria were.
My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.
I would think
that the asking price for Renteria may not have been that high, but I’m not sure that the club wanted to take on that kind of salary for a player that may be starting to decline. I have no idea what the value of Peralta would be to Cleveland, but they are one of the few teams with good middle infield depth in their farm system, so his price may have been lower that it would be if he played for, say, the Mets. Obviously and unfortunately, it was higher than the price of one Anthony Reyes…
I, too, am happy that we stood pat this time around—I think the costs of getting someone who can truly help the ballclub were just way too high. I’m now crossing my fingers that Carp and Wainwright give us 15-20 starts between them through the end of the year, and that Perez and Motte can help shore up the bullpen at some point, probably after rosters expand.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I don't really see why
the Tigers would’ve considered trading Renteria. They’re still in it and don’t have a SS ready to take over if he had been traded.
then
explain why they traded Pudge? It’s not like they have a stud catcher to take his spot either. Farnsworth helps their bullpen issues, but he’s not a shutdown closer, which is really what they need right now, and they have 2 hard throwing righties in the bullpen already. Guillen has played SS in his career, and with the way that Renteria is fielding, probably wouldn’t be much of a downgrade defensively.
That said, the only reason to move Edgar would be a salary dump, and the Tigers don’t seem to be too worried about spending money.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I can't explain that
Maybe they are giving up but, IMO, they’re too close to be giving up against flawed teams like the Twins and White Sox. Maybe their need for relief pitching was just that much greater than their need for a catcher like Pudge. They’ve moved Inge back to C and I guess they felt that adding a relief pitcher gains them more than going from Pudge to Inge behind the plate does.
They’ve almost run out of prospects b/c of all the trades they’ve been involved in and had nothing left to give up?
I don't think they're giving up
Which is why the Pudge trade confounds me. It’s entirely possible that they could be battling the Yankees in the wild card, and they just helped them improve, while setting for Inge’s horrible bat behind the plate. Inge is a good defensive catcher, so they aren’t losing much there considering Pudge’s decline in that area.
I would also think that Pudge is the leader in that clubhouse, and Farnsworth doesn’t lead anything except for leading the league in “devastating home runs allowed” when he was with the Cubs. Nothing about that deal makes sense to me at all, so I’m just going to leave it at that.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I don't think the difference
between Inge’s and Pudge’s bats is very big now. It certainly would’ve been 5 years ago, but Pudge isn’t the same player today. In fact, so far this year, Inge’s OPS is higher than Pudge’s, albeit w/ a lower OBP. His OPS+ is 106 to Pudge’s 99. I’m not saying that’ll hold for the rest of the year, but I don’t think there’s that big a drop-off between them. After reviewing this, the trade is starting to make more sense.
Has anyone seen Motte line recently
G W L IP TBF H 2B 3B HR R ER BB K ERA RA9
50 4 2 54.2 241 54 9 0 3 20 19 22 91 3.13 3.29
BB/PA K/PA BABIP GB% HR/Air FIP BsRA9
9.1% 37.8% .421 35% 4% 2.13 4.06
And in July he was just getting better
IP TBF BB/PA K/PA BABIP GB% ERA
15.2 59 5.1% 45.8% .259 30% 0.57
I know he is a one trick pony but I am really want to see that one Trick
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
It's nice to see
that his BB/PA is coming down, that was his biggest problem early in the season—walking too many hitters.
His fastball is nearly unhittable at the AAA level, but not so at the big league level. There’s quite a few guys who throw that hard in the MLB, and hitters will know that he’s got no offspeed pitches that he can throw for strikes so they’ll sit dead red and tattoo his fastball. He needs some type of change of pace to offset his great heater before he’s going to be lights out.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Yup
unless you throw 100 mph, you need something else to get guys out at the ML level.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I agree
No one can say what will happen this season with the cards but all will agree it has been much more exciting and times painfull than we thought. I never like to see any injuries on any team not just the Cards the recent news that Duncan being out for the season will help the Birds. This will keep Mather up and with Ankiel out also he has been given the chance to prove himself on a daily basis, so far so good. With the recent return of Carp and WW on his way back the Cards will have balanced out any trades the Cubs or Brewers made just by being patient. I will gladly give up offensive production in the SS slot to have Iz2s glove.
I'd rather have
Jack Wilson’s glove and Jack Wilson’s bat for Iz2’s cost….
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
The only player that would have helped
would have been Roberts…and the O’s are so weird I don’t think if could have happened.
I disagree
unless you want to play Miles at SS, which I don’t think you do.
The ONLY upgrade to the lineup would have been a shortstop. Roberts would simply replace Miles, which is almost a wash offensively this year. You’re still stuck with Iz2 and Ryan at SS unless of course Miles takes away a ton of those at bats. Then, what you gain in defense at 2nd (Roberts over Miles), you give away at SS (Miles over Izturis).
There really wasn’t anything to be had that was remotely cost efficient. Besides, I don’t think Roberts or Wilson or Renteria were really available anyway unless those teams were completely blown out of the water, which we obviously weren’t going to do.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
First of all
stay away from the p-d boards or talk radio. Those places are where brains go to die. And, you’re right about Ludwick - it wouldn’t have made sense to replace him w/ Holliday or Bay, 2 guys who are free agents after next season, or Manny - a free agent after this season. Replacing Skip w/ a big bat—maybe, but isn’t it possible that Mather’s come along to the point where a Skip/Mather platoon looks pretty good for the rest of the season. How many wins would Bay add over Skip and Mather THIS YEAR? One? Maybe.
As for protection, Albert doesn’t need more hitters hitting BEHIND him in the lineup. It doesn’t matter who’s there, Albert’s going to get pitched around unless it’s A-Rod, and it’s not going to be A-Rod. As you say, an OF doesn’t provide a huge upgrade over the last third of the season, particularly for what it would have cost. We do need, however, to improve our offense at 1 of the two middle infield positions. Even Miles, who’s having a career year, only has a .748 OPS and 98 OPS+. Combine that w/ the “vortex of suck” that has become the Cardinals’ SS position and it hurts. As we’ve found, good SS’s are difficult to find and there weren’t any available at the deadline. Mo was right to stand pat.
totally agree
Although I think that Albert gets pitched around even if A-Rod is back there, A-Rod strikes out a whole lot more than Albert does.
Also, I really like Tony’s lineup card last night. As much as I hate seeing Izturis leading off, I think he’s probably the best guy to hit there against lefties, considering his split this season. I also like seeing Mather hitting in the 2-hole—dude can absolutely turn around a fastball, and he’ll see plenty of those hitting in front of Pujols. A Schumaker/Mather platoon would maximize the production from that spot, but if that’s the case, you’ll probably have to get used to seeing Miles or Izturis in the leadoff hole against lefties.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Izturis' splits
this season belie his career splits. He has only 112 PA’s this season against lefties. For his career - 898 PA’s - he has a .305 OBP vs. lefties. I think this season’s numbers vs. lefties are more of an aberration created by so few PA’s rather than the notion that he’s turned a corner at the plate and suddenly become a much better hitter from the right side. Given his career #’s vs. lefties, I’d say he needs to be at the bottom of the lineup regardless of which hand the pitcher throws with - particularly when Ankiel comes back. When Rick returns, Skip can play vs. righties and Mather vs. lefties, creating a pretty good left field platoon. W/ Ankiel on the bench, Skip belongs at the bottom of the lineup vs. lefties - he’s just that bad, and always has been, against them.
I saw your post in yesterday's day thread
But I’d add this—he’s been worse than his overall career numbers for most of this season, but is hitting much better against lefties than ever before. I agree it’s a small sample size, but just from watching, it seems like he sees the ball better from that side and is able to take more walks per plate appearance as well.
He’s said in the past that he feels more confortable hitting right handed, so maybe he should think about giving up switch hitting altogether and taking all his AB’s right handed. He’s so pathetic from the other side, I’m not sure he’d be any worse off.
In any case, I think the Mather/Skip platoon is a good one, and Mather should definitely be taking some ground balls at third base in the pregame if he’s going to continue to hit like this. I’d rather have his bat and shitty glove when Glaus takes a day off than Ryan’s shitty bat AND shitty glove…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
maybe i missed something
but izturis didn’t just “think about” giving up switch-hitting… he gave it up. this year. then he picked it back up.
I guess that's what I meant
I just didn’t phrase it right.
He dabbled with it and then took it up again. I think he just needs to stick with it for a 100 PA’s or so and see if it makes a difference. Five or six games just isn’t enough time to tell.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
who hits leadoff vs. lefties
From what I understand of your post, Izturis is at the bottom of the order and Skip is on the bench. I think this realistically leaves you with Miles or Ryan hitting leadoff. I suppose if career OBP is the gold standard it should be Ryan .363 vs .348 for Miles, but on the season that changes to .323 vs .357 respectively so Miles has a significant advantage. By the way I limited this to Ryan and Miles, based on my own biases and I can’t really see a guy like Ludwick, Molina, Glaus, etc hitting leadoff (I also doubt Tony would use one of those guys consistently either).
by MotherTruckinSteve on Aug 2, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't believe in
plugging someone into the lineup simply b/c he fits the stereotypical idea of a “leadoff hitter.” Miles could hit leadoff or Mather. Pujols could hit leadoff for all I care—he’s our best OBP guy. What about Glaus? He’s a high OBP guy. I know Tony won’t do it, but it makes no sense to put Izturis there simply b/c he’s small and is more of a basestealer than Glaus or Mather. I’d say, go w/ Mather in the leadoff spot until he proves he can’t hit. He’s certainly better than Izturis.
But in reality, that's not going to happen
so unless we’re discussing theory, it’s a moot point.
We all know that LaRussa won’t put Mather or Glaus or one of those other guys at leadoff. I know it, you know it, the man on the moon knows it.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
but it makes no sense
to put a guy like Izturis at the top of the order just b/c he CAN’T hit homers and might be able to steal a base if he, by the grace of God, gets on. If our lineup has Mather, Ankiel, and Ludwick in the OF and Tony chooses Izturis to leadoff simply b/c the others have power and Izturis doesn’t, he choosing to give more PA’s to a worse hitter—and that’s a terrible idea.
I'm not argueing if it makes sense
but since we all know it ain’t gonna happen, it’s not really an option. Although, something in me says not to be too surprised if Mather gets a game in the leadoff spot. Don’t think it would happen, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see it either.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
my reason for wanting guy's who fit the stereotypical idea of a "leadoff hitter"
is simply because this team has a couple of guys in the lineup who hit for no power. These guys have to go somewhere, and one of them might as well be at the top of the order. Afterall, if one of these guys gets on base it will probably be on first, which increases the likelihood that Albert sees a pitch or two (this is a good thing IMO). For this same reason, I don’t think our leadoff or 2 hole batter should be a base stealer.
To run with the concept of base stealing, does anyone else think it is strange that Tony loves having a catcher who can shut down the running game, but does not steal bases all that often himself. In other words, it seems that he thinks running can beat him, but it can’t win for him. I realize that he doesn’t exactly have players that should be stealing a lot, but that’s sort of my point; he pressures management for a bat, not a guy who can run and I’m sure he has a fair amount of say as to who management targets in FA and trades.
by MotherTruckinSteve on Aug 2, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
"these guys have to go somewhere...
...so why not choose to give them more at bats than the guys who are a threat to hit home runs?”
Definitely agree that we should run more, and sacrifice less.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
good point
I guess I’ve got an irrational hangup against home run hitters at the top of the order. It seems like an invite to hitting solo HRs (even if this is really only strongly founded if the HR is in the first inning), but as bgh pointed out we already do that more often than is to be expected. I guess tacking a couple solo home runs on to the season total would be a positive when the alternative is no home run, because our good hitters never got those PAs.
by MotherTruckinSteve on Aug 2, 2008 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm thinking
Mather in the two hole (giggle) for the next two months will remind a lot of us of second half 2006 Chris Duncan.
My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.
If that's the case
Then he’d need to play a lot more than once every 4 games or so…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Oh, trust me...
I would vastly prefer to stay away from both of those things, but part of my job is to gauge the tone of the fan base and figure out what people are talking about. Unfortunately, that requires me to wade into the muck occasionally in order to hear the voice of the average fan.
Why don't you just make like a tree, and get out of here?
by the red baron on Aug 2, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
We dont even need a Good SS
We just dont need the worst in the league which Izturius is. Almost anything would be an improvement over him
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
it would not have made sense to replace Ludwick with Holliday or Bay. I just wish Ludwick had more ABs this season – especially when he was so hot. When I read today that Duncan is out and that basically his injury is far worse than was ever reported – it makes it even more maddening that he was taking away ABs from Ludwick early in the season. I admire Duncan’s desire to perform, but when it costs the team – what is the line between courage and insanity? Duncan has clearly not been right all year. It looks like the Cardinals may have been aware of the severity of his ailment and yet he played. I am not one of these people who claim nepotism here. I am just arguing that he should have not taken away ABs from Ludwick. The numbers clearly show that Ludwick is having a great season. I am glad we have him. I just wish he had some of the meaningful ABs that Duncan had early on in the season.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby
by Cardinal Red State on Aug 2, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Beginning next year.....
And for the next few years, who thinks that an OF of Ludwick, Rasmus, and Ankiel will be good enough?
I’m not saying it won’t be, but I’m definitely not sold that it will be either. I just don’t know. Just alot of question marks. Will Ludwick be able to duplicate this season? How long will it take Rasmus to adjust to ML-level pitching, and once he does, what is his true ceiling? Will Ankiel keep developing, or is he about at his ceiling?
Alot of questions.
Ankiel's a free agent
after next year and Ludwick becomes arbitration-eligible this year. I doubt that that OF will be the Cards’ OF for many years. I’d say probably next year, unless we trade Ludwick or Ankiel this offseason.
i can't see
ankiel sticking it to us for money, not after the way the organization stuck with him throughout everything. i think most orgz would’ve cut him after he decided to give up pitching.
+1
Boras has seemed to work with Ankiel and the Cards regarding this unique situation. Besides, we could always threaten to cut his kid, right?
I don't either
Personally, i think Rick might fail miserably without the Cardinals (namely Tony LaRussa). It’s much bigger than a player/coach/team relationsihp. Tony is, in essence, Rick’s dad. I can’t see him ever leaving the Cardinals.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I should add
unless TLR gets a job elsewhere. He might go with him.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Boras is still his agent
and steers the ship. I think it’s a bit presumptuous for Cards’ fans to believe that Ankiel will automatically give us some sort of hometown discount when he becomes a free agent for, likely, the only time in his major league career. It will be his 1 chance to cash in and, if the Cards want to keep him, they’re going to have to offer what other teams are offering, if not more.
I just see this as a different situation
I get the whole Boras thing, but I also see the situation as having no other comparable. It’s entirely unique. Simply put, I don’t think Ankiel would leave St. Louis. Now, I don’t think the team would low-ball him or anything. I think he would get a more than generous offer to stay.
Honestly, I think Ankiel listens more to and trusts guys like Tony and Dunc and others within the organization more than he does Boras. If he decided to go the true free agent route and cash in for the biggest wad, I’d be extremely surprised.
But, like I said, if TLR leaves then there might be more of a chance Ank leaves too, especially if TLR goes to manage another team. It wouldn’t surprise me to see Ank follow him wherever he goes.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
if you dont think Walt & the Reds
will back a Brinks truck up to Rick’s front door, you are sadly mistaken. almost every one in charge down in the Natti has a special connection to Rick & will pay him whatever it takes to make him a Red
this is probably his one time to take care of himself for the rest of his life. he can’t afford to take a home town discount to stay with the Cards. especially if Tony wont be around, which that is looking like a real possibility each & every day.
the Cardinals can afford to let Rick go get paid. but Rick cannot afford not to.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
He will be paid handsomely
and the Cardinals will pay him. Why wouldn’t they? And why wouldn’t he want to stay with the club that’s been so loyal to him for so long?
The Boras effect here is, I think, rather overstated.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 2, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Remember this guy had on mental issues which the team stuck with him too, I have friends in the club house that said he had drug issues at one time also
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
unless we have facts to back them up
should we really be saying people have drug problems? i expect that stuff on the PD boards, i think we should be better than that here. only one guy’s opinion though
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Absolutely
With Skip/Barton/Mather as 4th/5th outfielders, I think that’s the best outfield in baseball if Ludwick keeps it up. Good defensively and devastating offensively. I don’t think Mo needs to worry about the OF at all if he signs Ankiel. He needs to go out and get a type A middle infielder and another solid starting pitcher
next year's outfield
The Club will have some interesting decisions to make next season with their outfield roster. Things are getting very crowded out there.
1) What to do with Rasmus? If you put on the ML, you have to start him. If I’m the GM, I put Rasmus on the ML roster but TLR may have other thoughts. Might want Rasmus to start off in AAA and be the first callup.
2) Even if Rasmus starts off in AAA, there really is no room for C. Duncan on the roster IMHO—Hobbs, Luddy, Shu, Mather, Barton. One may argue he should take Barton’s spot to give us a left-handed power bat on the bench (nice thought) but I think Duncan absolutely should go to Memphis and prove he has power. Mather has leapfrogged CD IMHO. If it comes down to Barton or CD, I take Barton but reasonable minds may differ. Barton is at least still viewed as a prospect. Duncan, coming off surgery, will have zero trade value.
Wait and see
Chris Duncan career is in jeopardy right now with the surgery he is going under. No athlete has gotten the surgery he has taken before. Pretty much installing a rubber disc in his back
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Barton
Next season, provided he doesnt make a case to remain on the big club, Barton can be sent down to Memphis or Springfield without any problems. OTOH, if he proves he is legit, and can handle the duties of being a ML OF, we have a nice problem.
I do agree with you on CD, he should be in Memphis proving he hasnt lost it. Well, we’ll have to wait til he heals up from the neck surgery.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Aug 2, 2008 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Doing well in first 10 games back
Posting a .967 OPS
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually,
his time on the DL might require that he spend some time with the mlb club next season.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
DL won't have an impact
A rule 5 draftee has to be active for 90 days in the season. Barton made that before he went on the DL.
Since Rasmus is LH ...
does anyone else see the strong possibility that LaRussa sits him against LHP? Or, at least, he will probably get moved in the order. Does that concern anyone?
Unless you’re a really good LHB (peak Edmonds comes to mind) or unless there’s a huge defensive dropoff to any available RHB, you probably should sit against LHP. The day may come where Rasmus is that good, but it’s not an issue yet.
I don't agree.
If I’m looking for an everyday CF, he needs to be able to play every day. I don’t think that it matters which side of the plate you bat from. There are plenty of everyday LHB in the majors. I think LaRussa is too sensitive to the issue. We do have an huge drop-off defensively in CF to any of our RH options at the moment. Our best defensive OFs are all LH.
If Rasmus is the Cesar Izturis of center fielders against LHP, or somewhere close to that (that’s what Schumaker is, and I’m probably being a little generous), then I can live with the defensive dropoff to Mather. There’s just too much of a likelihood that Rasmus will suck against LHP in the first year or two of his career for this matter much.
If Rasmus turns out to be Schumaker against LHP, ...
then our entire scouting department that has been involved with Rasmus should be fired. I’m not overstating here. If they have overvalued Rasmus so badly that he is nothing more than a platoon player, even for the first two years, then they should have traded him.
I’m not saying he has to have identical splits, but it just can’t be that kind of a drastic difference.
You missed a couple of big questions in there...
Who’s going to man CF? Ankiel has looked like a GG type centerfielder at times, other times he looks like he’s lost. He still doesn’t have the good instincts when reading the ball off the bat, and hasn’t learned to adjust to the ball in flight (like which way a ball will tail depending on where it is and who hit it) Colby has GG level talent in centerfield, but he might actually be better in RF than Ank would be. I’m not saying it’s a problem, it’s just interesting how that would play out.
The second one is, who is the fourth outfielder, between Barton, Mather, and Skip? I’m excluding Duncan until he can prove that he’s healthy enough to play. Basically, two of those three are going to have to go. I’d prefer to hang onto Mather and Barton and look to move Skip somewhere as part of a deal for middle infield prospects, if possible. Those guys have much better upside than he does, and the team isn’t going to carry five outfielders unless Mather can be a fill in as a corner infielder.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I wouldn't get rid of Skip so soon
You are right, he doesn’t have the most upside of the three but I view him as the Aaron Miles of the outfield. He’s a great weapon against RH pitchers and he plays solid defense. Barton will likely spend next year at AAA and I don’t know that you get Skip’s worth back in a middle infielder. He’s shown remarkable progress this season and I would be a little upset if he wasn’t a Cardinal next year. Am I alone on that?
a good problem to have....
potentially anyhow, is the outfield situation next year, possibly beyond. i imagine that rick is ticketed for right next year with colby manning center. it’s his natural position and his position of the future. although rick has shown flashes of brilliance in center, i don’t think he stays there. i see barton starting the year in AAA and skip and mather rounding out the bench. mather will got a lot of starts vs. lefties and skip is the perfect pinch hitter / defensive replacement.
although, that makes me think – while everyone talks about the offensive potential of that outfield, might it also have the potential to be the best defensive outfield in league, or in baseball? colby and rick both have cannon arms and possible gg potential and ludwick is no slouch, especially for left. and there is little drop-off from the bench. skip is above average and mather can hold his own. while rick, ludwick, and cobly are likely to be streaky offensively and their ceiling in that aspect might be questioned, our outfield should always be saving runs with their defense.
Yeah, it's crazy how good the OF defense is once it has been de-Duncanified
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Small quibble
I’d have gone with “de-Duncafied”. Still gets the point across and actually rolls off the tongue a tad smoother.
;D
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I agree on Skip
But where does Mather get AB’s against lefties? You’re not going to pull Colby out of the lineup, Rick hits lefties pretty well, and Ludwick has hit lefties fairly well this season. As I said above, I don’t see them carrying 5 outfielders unless one of those guys, Mather, can play the corner infield positions when Albert and Glaus need a day off. So, one of those three non-starters needs to go.
Actually, that would be the best defensive outfield in all of baseball, in terms of catching the ball and holding hitters to long singles. You’d really have to paste the ball to get it in the gap with those guys manning the outfield.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
tony always finds a way....
for his bench players to get at bats. i think when colby and rick get days off, it’ll often be against lefties, with mather stepping in
Hopefully
Daryl “Tools” Jones will be ready by than. We are so deep at the Outfield postion. Between Skip, Ankiel, Ludwick, Duncan, Mather, Barton, Stav, Jay, and Jones
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Which means...
it’s time to start targeting teams that need corner outfield help and have good middle infield prospects to trade. Cleveland, Atlanta, and Tampa all have good middle infield prospects, and could use some help at one or both of their corner outfield positions. This offseason may be the time to strike while the iron is hot.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
So, ...
do you trade a Ludwick or Mather to get an high-end MIF, or do you have to package some lower-end OF prospects for mid-range MIF prospects?
Right now Ludwick is on pace
to get some votes for MVP and makes basically league minimum. Why would you trade that? He has a pretty solid swing and will probably only get better. We should be able to get a capable SS by packaging minor league talent. I would be happy with a slick-fielding SS prospect that we think will hit eventually. We don’t need a masher at SS, just a competent, slightly better than league average guy.
I think you need to give Joey Bombs a few turns around the league to figure out what you’ve got. He good be a pretty good platoon partner in LF with pop off the bench. After all, part of the downside to the MI suckitude is our bench is pretty woeful.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
I understand the point.
I wouldn’t be excited about seeing Ludwick go. It seems extremely evident that “can’t-miss” MIF prospects are in extremely short supply right now. We have good depth in the OF. I don’t know that I feel confident any of our depth would be able to compensate for the lost production of removing Ludwick. He is an huge bargaining chip, though. Do we feel quite sure that he can continue this level of production over the next few years?
I agree that he's probably our biggest bargaining chip
but I’m not so sure about that come this offseason or later. I think at some point his age starts to be a detriment in the way teams look at him. Sure, he’s cost controlled and everything for a few more years, but he’ll be nearing decline by that time. Wouldn’t a team like Tampa or whoever prefer to not only have someone that is cost controlled but also moveable once that cost controlled aspect starts to lessen?
Teams are getting much better at selling relatively high. Ludwick is probably at his highest value he’ll ever be. I doubt a team like Cleveland or Tampa would give up much for someone they know for an almost certainty they can’t flip later down the road.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Cost-controlled + season-tested = value
I think he has significantly more value than any of our other OFs currently on the roster, especially in the offseason. I don’t see Schumaker, Duncan, Barton, or Mather having more value at that point; and Ankiel will no longer be under our control.
It seems that Rasmus, Anderson, and our pitching depth seems to be our biggest commodities; but cost-controlled, 30/100 guys aren’t easy to find. It probably makes more sense to hold on to him, but I think the Cards are going to have to provide a player of significant value in order to pry out a valuable MIF that could be ready to play next year.
You're sort of making my point
His value is going to start dropping before it gets any higher (since I don’t see it getting any higher). While some might think it would be smart to sell high on him right now, I think his value to us right now is greater than what he’d bring back since I don’t think a team like Cleveland or Tampa or Atlanta would be willing to give up a great, can’t miss, middle infielder when they get a couple of cost controlled years before his age starts to get up there and they can’t flip him anymore.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I don't quite see that.
IMO, you are overstating his age. You are talking about a guy that is 30, not 34. He will have probably 2-5 years of value ahead of him. Two of those would clearly be while still cost-controlled. You aren’t talking about a cornerstone player, but he will clearly provide value for a team whose OF depth is similar to our IF depth. He is a valuable player that could easily fill a position until the depth issue can be resolved through the draft.
agree
luddy may be more valuable than rasmus right now, since rasmus is 4-5 years from his peak. Luddy is peaking AND is cost-controlled while he peaks, which is incredibly rare.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
The problem with young players ...
is that they typically start to peak at about the same time their cost-controlled seasons come to a close. Ludwick’s injuries have put us in an interesting position. You have a 30-year old prospect coming in to his own. His injuries have kept his costs down, but he seems to be realizing the potential the Indians first saw in him.
but he is 30
and who’s to say that his peak will last 3-4 years. In fact, this year may be his peak. It’s reasonable to wonder whether his performance will fall just as his pricetag rises. Now, as long as he’s arbitration-eligible - for 3 more years - his cost will be controlled and, even w/ a rising price tag, it’ll still be less than paying for a free agent. But this year may be the year his value peaks.
I'm pretty sure that is the point we are making.
He has value now. His ability to maintain this peak is unknown. Why wouldn’t you look to gain value for him while you can?
TackleBox was making the point that he wouldn’t have much value in the offseason because teams wouldn’t be willing to risk that his peak would be short-lived. I disagreed, in that I think it is a minimal gamble (cost-wise) for a fairly solid amount of production.
I think there is a good chance that a team would be willing to take that gamble, and I think there is a good chance that Ludwick will taper off before the Cardinals are a true World Series contender again. It is the same argument I had with not shopping Lohse. Unless they resign him to a reasonable long-term deal (3-4 years), then I think they missed an opportunity to stockpile valuable players.
then what would you give up for him?
Put yourself in the other team’s shoe. You’re looking at someone who might have just had his best year. He’s 30 and has exactly 1 good year at the major league level. Plus a pretty good injury history.
Would you give up a can’t miss middle infield talent who is 23-24 years old? Unless you’re the Chicago Cubs and are gunning for “this year”, i’m not so sure I’d make that deal.
I would be running the risk of a declining player who is worthless as a trade chip once he becomes expensive. If I only care about next year, then I might make that deal. I just don’t know who is in that situation that would be more than willing to give up a 23 year old shortstop that is a can’t miss major leaguer.
The only teams I see that are in “right now” mode (next year) are the Yankees, Red Sox, White Sox?, Angels, Mets, Cubs, Astros (for whatever reason), and maybe the Dodgers. And I’m not even getting into who would be looking for a corner outfielder.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I don't have a suitor, yet.
I think he should at least be shopped. I’m not advocating shipping him out in the offseason. I’m saying that I think there are teams that would be willing to take a flier on a guy like Ludwick. He was a solid platoon player last year, and he has clearly become a valid everyday OF.
I don’t understand your point about him being “worthless as a trade chip once he becomes expensive.” He isn’t under an escalating, long-term contract. If he doesn’t pan out, then you can let him walk. You have lost a solid prospect, but I would gamble that a team will get at least 2 years of solid production from him. If so, then you still have a player of value at 32 going in to his contract year. Or, you could sign him to a relatively modest contract. I don’t see the huge risk you are describing.
I don’t often advocate “fleece” trades. I look for those that will benefit both teams with equal value. If you have a team like Cleveland that has a wealth of IFs and a lack of OFs, then they may be willing to sacrifice some of that IF talent to chance getting an OF that could produce for as many as 5 years.
I get your point, I just don't see a team that is looking to build
toward the future wanting to give anything of major value for a 30 year old outfielder who’s had one good year. That doesn’t seem to fit into the model of building. If you’re ready to compete next year and you desparately need a corner outfielder, then sure you might give up something. But a team that’s got to build for a few years away….i just don’t see giving away anything for a 30 year old who might have just had his best year ever and might be going into decline.
I just think there might be better options even within the Cardinals organization that would be a much better fit to my long term goals.
Whatever. We aren’t going to agree on this anytime soon.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
We're not that far off.
I don’t disagree with your points, and you may very well be right. I don’t doubt that there are many teams that would not be willing to make the deal.
Let me ask you a different question. Don’t you think that a building team has more room to be wrong about a guy like Ludwick? If they are wrong about him, then they made a relatively cheap mistake. They can cut him loose, and they haven’t really lost anything serious. If a contending team that is looking to make a run next year misses on a guy like Ludwick, thinking he is a necessary piece; then they may have missed that ever-shrinking window to win a championship.
It all seems to be about perspective, IMO. I think that it would be worth shopping for the right piece by dangling Ludwick. If a team is much more interested in a Jon Jay, Nick Stavinoha, Joe Mather, etc. then I’m definitely for that. I’m concerned that one of those guys are not enough to land a solid MIF prospect.
I’m just concerned with the lack of IF depth in this organization, and it seems like the Cards would have a better opportunity to replace a guy like Ludwick from within than finding a valid, everyday IF on the FA market.
I see what you're saying
I just think as a building team, if I have a surplus of really good middle infield prospects and I understand the market for good middle infielders is poor, then I’m not going to go after a 30 year old outfielder.
Most of these teams that are ‘builders’ can’t sustain their talent for too long before they kinda need to re-up. If I get a young outfielder, by the time he’s no longer cost controlled, I can flip him for more help in an area I need it. I guess I’m basically talking about the ultimate flipper Billy Beane (who I think does this to the extreme, but you see a lot of teams do it).
Take the Pirates. They got a lot of years out of Jason Bay at a very reasonable price and were able to flip him for 4 prospects (1 being Andy LaRoche) when he’s only 28 and still valuable. Ludwick is already older than that.
Anyway, changing the subject. It does look like the Cards are focused on developing middle infielders. With Pete Kozma and Nico Vasquez coming in the past 2 drafts, there is some hope for the future. Plus, Isa Garcia is doing pretty well at AA and Tyler Greene is trying his best after his AAA callup. Granted it doesn’t help this year or next (unless Greene ever realizes his potential?), it is a step in the right direction.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
So, ...
what you are saying is that you think Ludwick has more value to us than any other team. I can go along with that; and frankly, I’m glad to hear it. I don’t want to give up Ludwick, and he is not going to hurt the ol’ budget. Your first paragraph probably won the argument. When you phrase it that way, it is hard to argue with.
I agree that they seem to be starting to focus on MIF depth. As you pointed out, that isn’t helping us any time soon. Tyler Greene is starting to sound like the Anthony Reyes of SS prospects. I’d like to see what Hoffpauir can do next year, but the talk about his glove scares me.
The lack of depth at the LHP and MIF spots, with apparently a very tough market for both, is the reason I think the Cards are going to have to continue developing those from within. That will take time, and I hope they don’t overcompensate with bad deals for shaky veterans or prospects in the meantime. I am willing to ride out the rebuilding period. I will be really irritated if they start making rash decisions in order to “contend” for the wild card.
what about the rays
they were rumored to have gone after Bay with Reid Brignac (a 22 year old SS at AAA), and Jeff Niemann (a 25 year old right handed pitcher at AAA), with the trade being hung up because the Pirates wanted more. Bay is certainly more proven in the majors, but as RB pointed out in the main thread, Ludwick has been better at the plate so far this year. Bay is only 2 months younger and costs a lot more than Ludwick does. Using Bay as a measuring stick, Ludwick should be a piece that interests the Rays in the offseason, if they want to contend again next season.
by MotherTruckinSteve on Aug 2, 2008 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
actually
I heard the Rays didn’t want to give up Brignac.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
maybe
I got all of that from here:
http://www.draysbay.com/2008/7/31/583830/bay-to-the-rays
a lot of rumor and speculation in the thread, and nothing in the way of word from the team so you may very well be right.
by MotherTruckinSteve on Aug 2, 2008 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd be surprised if Ludwick got ANY MVP votes.
Not that he doesn’t deserve ‘em for his performance, but the media is never going to look past Pujols on this team. Of course once they look at Pujols, they’ll look right along to Bruan or Utley or someone else.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
nah
he’ll get just enough to give the whole thing to Utley or Uggla in the yearly last-minute “screw the best player in baseball” campaign.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
Ha
that’s true. This’ll be the year they don’t give it to Pujols because he’s been surrounded by guys like Ludwick, Ankiel and Glaus with career years from Molina, Skip and Miles.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Don't like
15 players get MVP votes? He won’t get any first place votes but I could see him getting some 8ths, 9ths, or 12ths.
You're probably right
He’s not going to challenge for the MVP or anything. Not saying he couldn’t in a fair environment, but you’re right, he’ll probably get some of those “way down there” votes.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Good question.
I think Ankiel will continue to grow defensively. I think he has the potential to grow offensively, too; but I’m pretty sure he will always be a streak-hitter. I also think he will always battle injuries that take him out of the lineup for significant amounts of time. I don’t have a problem with that. That consistency is what separates good players from great players.
Ludwick is an enigma. He seems like he has turned a corner, and it seems silly to believe that this is just a really extended above average streak. I could be wrong, though.
Rasmus is going to have to be able to fill the leadoff spot if we are going to remove Schumaker from the mix. Even then, he is going to have to prove that he hits LHP at a significant clip to maintain that role. We need Barton to develop as a RH option for that top of the order spot. That, or we are going to need a MIF that can man that duty. We don’t have one internally, so who’s out there?
I think that could turn out to be a formidable OF for some time, but you could have one or two flops out of that, too.
The major concern remains mifs. Surely between free agency, the salary reduction and some surplus in the outfield, the team can improve in that area.
The question becomes – who is on the block? Luddy and Ank have no real career numbers, but each has well detailed injury issues. Does Skippy merit a lot of interest? That takes the team to Ras again.
Which of the above most appeals to you as the GM of an opposing team?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Not to mention that we're back to the same old targets
Peralta, Roberts, etc… the problem is that defensively adequate MI that hit well don’t exactly grow on trees.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
If you're an opposing GM
I would think that Mather, Barton, and Jay have to most appeal of our outfielders not named Rasmus. I think Skip would merit some interest for team with lots of pop in center and right field and in need of a leadoff hitter who can get on base. I’m not sure who that team is though.
I think we’re in a good situation with Ludwick and Ankiel, as long as they can stay healthy.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Skip has more value as a center fielder than a LFer
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
He has more value at a utility outfielder than anything
but with his light bat and high OBP he’s more of a fit in center, but he’s really not all that fast and doesn’t get great jumps on the ball in CF, so I’m not sure he’s a fit there either. He’s better than Junior Griffey though, no matter what Kenny Wiliams says…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Ha! Griffey
I’ve talked to about a half dozen of my friends that are Sox fans and when I ask them about Griff and where he’ll play, thay all say “Centerfield?” all sarcastically as if I a moron for asking. Of course I mention that he’s not even a very good right fielder and the most common answer I’ve gotten is “well, center is his natural position”.
Right…...........
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
one of the reasons
Griffey was moved to RF in the first place was to reduce the chances of him hurting himself. While clearly his overall defensive skills have waned, if I was a white sox fan I would be more worried that Junior will suffer an injury (hammy or back strain, eg) than I would fret him not playing a decent enough CF
Miles seemed flat last night
Don’t think he liked Isturias batting in his place. Doubt that Mather will remain 2nd. It should be Ankiel with instructions to hit singles and doubles, not bombs away, but knowing Tony and his righty lefty fetish, na. Albert was really pressing again between the HR boys. He is going in and out of that funk like a revolving door. Slow down, stay back big guy.
I can’t help but think it would be wise to skip Joel in the rotation this week. He could go as long man backing Carp on Tuesday, and act as such till he is needed again. That gives you Lohse against Lowe on Wednesday with a better chance to sweep a team we need to sweep. There best pitcher is the young left on Thursday. Every game counts now. Joel could help protect our “fragile” pen.
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Aug 2, 2008 1:17 PM EDT reply actions
well
Mather’s hitting awfully well in the second spot, and I live by the mantra that you don’t fix something that ain’t broke. He’s should be platooning with Schumaker when Rick gets back in the lineup, so Ludwick probably hits there against righties with Ank in the 4 hole in front of Glaus. It has nothing to do with lefty/righty anything, it’s putting high OBP players in front of Pujols. Ank is not one of those guys.
It should be Ankiel with instructions to hit singles and doubles, not bombs away
What kind of advice is that? “Hey, don’t swing so hard! Try to hit more line drives off the wall that hitting big flys over it.” As if he’s just up there trying to hit homers every at-bat.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Its good advice Fourstick
In case you haven’t noticed. Rick has been a little lost of late. Some one with his sensitivity’s should be cared for a little.
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Aug 2, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
and before the injury
he was on fire. the last 28 days he is hitting .371/.405/.657 with 5 homers and 17 rbi. if that is lost than would someone tell everyone else on the team to get lost right along with him.
ironically, he's right
though it’s for the wrong reasons. Ankiel should ALWAYS bat higher in the lineup than Miles (as should luddy, glaus, molina, pujols, mather, duncan, schu, etc) because they are better hitters and you want to give your better hitters more at bats. OTOH telling a guy like ankiel to “hit singles and doubles” is the kind of thing that causes slumps, though, especially now that rick seems to be getting a better idea of the strike zone.
If you skip Piniero this week vs LAD, doesn’t that also mean he’ll have to pitch against the Cubs?
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
The Cubs may beat whatever you throw, senseless. Think wild card. We can't beat the cubs.
They have to beat them selfs. Every win is equal when they count them up. If we are close in the standings they might choke. We need to deal with LA and Florida.
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Aug 2, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
well, count me as one
who thinks it’ll be easier for the cubs to “beat themselves” with carpenter pitching than piniero.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
excuse me
beat “them selfs.”
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
Carp pitches Sunday
What we need is Get the golden boy out of the tanning room on Saturday. If Welly can pitch, Waino can throw a few more four seamer’s than is his pleasure.
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Aug 2, 2008 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
that also lines up our Jack of Clubs
Lohse….........to start a long series with Florida
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Aug 2, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
If wainwright is back and healthy and capable, I thik a lot of our problems are solved
We go forward with a rotation of Carp, Waiwright, Lohse, Wellemeyer and Piñeiro. We throw the three headed best of Looper (better suited to relief than Wellemeyer ,and Joel, but people can quibble) Franklin and Izzy in the 9th. McClellan, Villone and Springer are completely fine for their roles, and if we get something out of Garcia as a LH reliever, all the better. That bullpen is good enough to tkeep the team together for the rest of the season. Teh MI is still horrible, but there was no fixing that.
I’m assuming that Stavinoha is the one that goes to make room for Wainwright.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
if we skip piniero vs the dodgers
unless i’m mistaken, either carp will have to go on short rest vs the cubs, or piniero will have to go. Or thompson/boggs/garcia/etc.
Yeah, it sure would be nice to see AW’s name in that slot on saturday…
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
Carp is due tuesday, Sunday is day five. Normal rest.
Waino on Saturday…......Joel and Thompson hovering.
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Aug 2, 2008 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
got it
if only that were possible…
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
wouldn't that be cool though?
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
yeah
everytime I think WCBW is like some sort of crusty ol college professor, with a cardigan sweater and a cup of tea, he goes and makes one of those odd typos and my visual comes crashing to earth.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I definintely agree
with skipping Joe-L in the rotation. With all the off days this month I hope that Tony gets creative with the rotation.
i would probably bear ryan ludwick's children
if i had the necessary plumbing and made more money so he could suppport me and ryana or ryan jr.
So there you have it!
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Aug 2, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
pitcher
livan hernandez anyone? got cut from minny, we can get him for the league minimum i believe. maybe slot him into the rotation and send loop-a-doop or joeL to the pen.
oh, my word!
Livan…pass! He’s beyond terrible. At least Pineiro and Looper are ok. Parisi, Boggs, Garcia, Todd, and Mortensen are all better than Livan.
He's such an odd pitcher though
He got his ass kicked a couple of starts ago and still went 9 innings and only gave up 5 runs, which I believe all came in the first 2 innings or something. I was thinking “Hellooooooo bullpen” but Gardenhire just kept sticking him out there and by the time the game was over, he was mowing ‘em down.
Btw, in no way am I endorsing the acquisition. Just Say No.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
that's b/c
he’s got the ability to throw about 180 pitches in a game and his 180th won’t be any worse than his first was. Still, his first (as you pointed out) was pretty bad.
2 or 3 years ago I would have said yes.
I don’t think I can go along with it anymore. He will protect your bullpen, and he will probably keep you somewhere in the game. He has always been a better pitcher in the NL than in the AL, but I just don’t know if you can keep banking on his Satchel Paige-like agelessness.
Washburn
I know this has been discussed ad nauseum but if the cards need a starting pitcher they should just wait for Washburn to pass through waivers. Any idea what it would cost? If anything, I would require the Mariners pick up some salary next year in exchange for a better prospect.
Its not the pitcher,
its the contract. Yankee’s would have taken the bailout. They didn’t want to give up prospects or players. No way that the Mariners waves him and then pays his contract for him to pitch for someone else. They will try to trade him in the off season.
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Aug 2, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the Cards would have the waiver priority
or does it go by league starting with the offering team’s league?
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I was afraid of that
and that is another one of those things that makes no sense to me. Anyone care to explain?
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I think it actually goes with divisions first
To take it a step further
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
when Barton comes back, who goes back to Memphis?
would they dare send Joey Bombs back? if Wagonmaker takes Stav’s spot, who does Barton take? Puppy Kicker? will AK finally be DFA’d? i dont see a spot for both guys on the roster right now. PK & AK seam to be the only two who are expendable. do we need PK in long relief a lot more than we need AK? could Boog be playing on borrowed time?
i’d also like to wish DUNK a speedy recovery. if you haven’t already read, he’s done for the year & perhaps his career with the same injury that forced Larry Walker to call it quits. i was & still am one of his more vocal supporters. but even i knew he just wasn’t cutting it as a major league player. now we all know why. he was really hurt, but hiding it & not telling anyone about his injury. part of me really respects the guy for doing that, but as was the case with Rolen, he was too hurt to play, and in fact him not admitting he was hurt not only hurt him more physicially, but also the Cardinals. there’s a fine line that players have to walk when it comes to playing with pain. and i understand that. but you also have to know when its time to shut it down & get yourself healed. you have to swallow your pride, and for a MLB player, thats not easy to do.
the team also has an obligation to their other players, and yes even to us fans to step in on a players behave & make him shut it down when said player doesn’t have the good sense to say he’s too hurt to play. there was something clearly wrong with DUNK. but the team refused to acknowledge that, and they kept letting him play. and now look where he is, facing a surgery that very well might end his career. this teams track record of handling player injuries was bad enough as it is, and now it’s taken yet another hit. if i was Dewitt & CO, i’d serioulsy start to question whether or not the men who are running the Cards & handling their players really have the teams best interest at heart, or are they merely trying to do whats best to protect their own legacy’s.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Barton
It seems as though the kid doesnt have a real spot on this team. The outfield is crowded. I would hate to see Joey Bombs get sent down. Barton brings a lot to the table but the other outfielders are strong. I wish Barton could play second.
sure he does
if i remember correctly he’s a pretty good pinch hitter. plus his main job can be when Skippy doesn’t start he can lead off. or hit 2nd or 9th. like Red pointed out this morning we have our 4th place hitter in LUD, and he can play every outfield position pretty well. so if Tony chooses when the Cards face a tough lefty he can sit both Rick & Skippy and you have have Barton, Bombs & LUD in the outfield & not skip a beat. or at least not have a AAAA line up like the one they had on Thursday night.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
It's going to be a sticky situation
when it is time for Barton to return. My vote would be to DFA Kennedy, but that probably won’t happen. Puppy kicker has shown some value of late in long relief, so I don’t think they will send him down either. My guess is that B. Ryan is the odd man out. He hasn’t really done much of late to warrant playing time. Who knows though; a lot of things can happen between then and now.
By the time Barton is back
It will be Sept call ups
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
you can't be in favor of sending Bombs down in over Barton can you?
even if it’s only for 2 1/2 weeks, that’s not a good idea. unless i’m missing something, there’s only three logical choices, AK, PK, or Boog. PK & Boog at least have some upside. AK at this point is just taking up a roster spot. he has almost no value right now. but Tony loves his vet’s so i’m betting his roster spot is safe for the rest of the season.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Who in the world is Boog? or PK for that matter
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I second the Brendan Ryan idea.
Maybe some time hitting AAA pitching will remind him how to hit. The kid is going to have to hit better than .230 to stay at this level as anything other than a Royce Clayton/Adam Everett type.
He is the worst baseball player on the team
Ship him out of here
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Pinata, IZ2 & AK beg to differ
Boog isn’t even close to the worst player on the squad right now. he is far, far more versatile than AK. his D at SS is better than IZ2 every day of the week. has his bat fallen off? no doubt. but just because he’s struggling at the plates does not make him the worst player on the team.
the more i think about this, the more i think if & when Wagonmaker comes back to the rotation, Pinata takes PK’s roll in the pen as the long relief, mop up guy. and Boog goes to Memphis as well. at least until the September call ups happen.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Maybe Barton needs to have another injury.
One that will allow him to finish the season at Memphis on a rehab assignment. Otherwise, dropping Kennedy seems like the only acceptable option, since: we are crowded in the outfield, but that could mean some great trade bait; Kennedy doesn’t seem to have a future with the club anyway; with the games becoming more and more important, don’t we want Miles at 2b anyway?
I think the Indians might have an issue with that.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I think Ryan would be the one to go
not only has he had issues with LaRussa, but it’d only be for like 10 days since September would be right around the corner, right? I think the middle infield could survive 10 days without Brendan Ryan.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Stavinoha.
What’s difficult about this one?
Oops
that was supposed to be a response to gdm426’s question about who goes down when Crabman is ready.
by StanTheManFan on Aug 2, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a short-term problem
Rosters expand September 1. Barton was placed on the 15-day disabled list on July 23, having last played on July 5. Assuming the DL was retroactive to July 6, his DL stint would end on July 21. With a 20-day rehab maximum, he will be due to return no later than August 11 or thereabouts. Basically, they’ve got 2 1/2 weeks where either one of the relievers or Joe Mather will go down.
I'm a little confused.
So, you are saying Barton’s DL stint was over before it started? I have to assume there is a chronological error here. Also, if it would benefit them for the purpose of the roster, are you sure they would start it retroactively?
I'm not sure of the exact dates
Typically DLs are done retroactively to the last date not played. Could we have started his DL on the 23rd and not raise an objection from Cleveland? That I don’t know, but it looks damn fishy—like we’re deliberately trying to stretch out a minor injury.
It’s the 20-day rehab that was the reason to send Barton down, mostly. That gives him time to work on his hitting, etc. His hand injury was pretty slight from all accounts I’ve seen.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 2, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
And remember the 20 day rehab
doesn’t start until he comes off the DL which doesn’t have to be 15 days. It has to be at least 15 days but can be more.
The fact he is playing does mean he will have to return before the rosters expand.
But he has been playing in Memphis for 10 days now
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
At least
He is hitting the ball well down there
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Photos from the Braves game
I created a Fanshot with a link to my photo album from Thursday’s game. Here’s the link if anyone’s interested.
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2008/8/2/585334/cardinals-vs-braves-7-31-i
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
Neat pics
Pujols looks like a friggin’ outlaw in that pic. And Ludwick should have had a white hat, looks like he’d be the dude lookin’ for Pujols. Of course that night wouldn’t have been complete without a start by the ol’ gunslinger himself, Jason LaRue.
Btw, is it just me or did they just flip the Miles and Stavinoha pics? Looks like they used the same pic (face and all) and just reversed it. Than again, Nick is Aaron’s little brother.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
and I assume you're the one in the cardinals shirt?
You are Mr. Redbird, so I figure you wear Cards gear 24/7.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Yeah that's me in the middle
My two buddies are Braves fans, though they weren’t really repping like me. We commented that AP looked like an SA, and BR just looked alien. I wish I had taken pictures of the Braves pictures as well, because they gave Jeff Francouer this outfit with like a leather vest with an eagle on it. It was very…ahem…effiminate
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
Joe Mather
I have a good male friend who is a Cardinals fan and in a text message the other night, he called him Joe “The Boner Maker” Mather.
That is all.
"Jimmy told me, 'If you keep it right there at two runs and no more, we'll win this game,'" Wainwright said. "'Me and Albert will get the job done."
i wonder if i will get in trouble for adding that one to the list
when you make an appearance, you sure know how to make it worhtwhile!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Why do you acknowledge, then ignore that Skip would have been the OF replaced?
He would have obviously been the odd man out. Not saying I was for a deal, but Ludwick would have seen much more playing time than Skip. Obviously, that would leave a hole in the leadoff spot, but regardless, you made an entire post stating how great Ludwick is in comparison to other players the Cards could have traded for, completely disregarding the fact that he would have seen minimal decrease in playing time.
And lineup protection has very little to do with 2/3 of 1 seasons production. Manny Ramirez would have given Pujols much more protection than Ludwick et al. There should be no debate about that. Don’t kid yourself….
You also ignored the fact that it would only take 2 decent prospects to get Manny (not “3-4”.) It would have taken 2 of ours and 2 of another teams (i.e. 2 Dodger, 2 Marlins). Mather and Mortenson would have probably been plenty on our part. Now its only for 2 months, so I don’t know that it would have been worth it, but just saying….
It seems like your picking and choosing what you want to write in order to fit your preconceived notions. Its unfortunate, because it was a long post that wasn’t worth reading.
Apparently you skimmed it instead of reading it.
The Red Baron makes his case for why it would have been Ludwick instead of Schumaker
“We all know that there weren’t any run producing middle infielders on the market. Thus, any offensive upgrade would likely have had to come in the outfield. The thing is, when you look at most of the outfielders being considered, they were almost all right handed hitting corner outfielders. What that means, of course, is that the player who most likely would have had his playing time most affected by any new acquisition would have been Ryan Ludwick. With that in mind, I wanted to look at some of the numbers, just to try and get an idea of how much of an upgrade replacing Luddy with one of the so called big bats on the market would truly represent. Now, I do realise that it’s also possible you could have replaced Skip Schumaker instead of Ludwick, but with Schumaker’s proclivity for hitting righthanded pitching and his defensive aptitude, you’re going to see Schumaker quite a bit no matter what. So even if you were to try and replace Schu rather than Ludwick, you would then most likely see Skip replacing Ludwick several times a week. Either way, I think Ludwick would have ended up being the one to have his playing time cut if the Cards had brought in another outfielder.”
You should read the whole thing before you criticize a guy’s post that vehemently.
I read the post...
” Apparently you skimmed it instead of reading it. The Red Baron makes his case for why it would have been Ludwick instead of Schumaker”
Apparently you skimmed my 4 paragraph post instead of reading it. I read that, thats why I said he “acknowledged, then ignored that Skip would have been the OF replaced?” as the title of my post. You should have read mine before you criticized it.
He stated in his post, “Schumaker’s proclivity for hitting righthanded pitching and his defensive aptitude, you’re going to see Schumaker quite a bit no matter what.”
Completely disagree, Skips slash stats against RHP are .351/.411/.502 and Ludwicks are .319/.395/.620. He conveniently ignored that Ludwick is a better hitter against righties than lefties because it supported his argument that Skip would have seen quite a bit of playing time. And Schumaker is an average defensive player, better than Ludwick, but not enough difference to be very important. If there would be any reason Skip would see playing time, its because he’s a leadoff hitter. A fact that Red Baron didn’t acknowledge at all.
He also said this, “Personally, I don’t know that there is an upgrade out there, no matter what you were willing to pay.” Really? No one? I mean, Ludwick’s been great and all, but thats a little over the top isn’t it? There have been lots of “one-year wonders” in baseball history, so its way to early to start saying Ludwick is a top notch OFer.
I made the “harsh” post because he failed to present 2 sides to the discussion. He disregarded important facts & even made up one (“4 prospects for Manny”) in order to support his argument. When I read something, I try to analyze it. I just don’t accept everything for fact. Try it!
by CrimsonBirdFan on Aug 3, 2008 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
You didn't make your point in one vague title sentence.
I read every bit of your four paragraph response, and I saw that you did not substantiate your claim that he “acknowledged and ignored” the fact that Skip would be the odd man out. You only vaguely addressed the issue in the title and the first paragraph, so I don’t understand what the other three paragraphs would have provided to counter my criticism.
You may have disagreed with his assertions, but that wasn’t the accusation that you made in your post. You said he ignored that possibility. In addition, you said that his article was “not worth reading” based on the fact that his assertions disagreed with yours. If you wish to take such an absolute stance against an individual’s assertions, then you must provide evidence for why you think his/hers are incorrect. You provided even less evidence as to why you believed Skip would definitely be the odd man out.
Your assertions on Manny Ramirez are based on career abilities which mean little to the acquiring team. Right now, today, taking in all factors (defense, salary, production), Ludwick is the better player. Your assumption about protection is based entirely on the psychological effects of Manny’s reputation being better protection, and that is an extremely tenuous stance.
You finally made some points to discuss in your rebuttal, here. It is a shame that you posted out of emotion the first time, rather than presenting a reasonable argument as you did here. Even here you acknowledge that you disagree with his assertion, not that he didn’t make one as you previously indicated. Also, you seem to confuse a debate about what should have been done at the trade deadline with a long term strategy. While Ludwick may turn out to be a one-year wonder, trade deadline deals are typically about this year. For right now, Ludwick is better than anything we could have acquired to help us this year.
Nice attempt to criticize at the end, but you failed miserably. I never stated my opinion about his assertions at all, so you still don’t know if I agreed with either you, or Red Baron. I did analyze what both of you had to say, and I have my own assertions as to why we had no need for an available “impact bat.” My post was in response to the fact that you gloss over that he did make a case as to why he felt Schumaker would retain the lion’s share of the at-bats against RHP. I can agree that he didn’t make a solid case, but you made none at all. You just said he was wrong, and because he disagreed with you he was being intentionally misleading to make his points. That is an extremely harsh accusation without substantiation, and that is exactly what I (and apparently houstoncardinal and Red in Chicago) felt that you did.
Did I make a spelling error?
I didn’t know it would be that difficult to understand this sentence…”Why do you acknowledge, then ignore that Skip would have been the OF replaced?” Do I really need to support that with “evidence.” Thats simply an observation I made about his post. How is that vague? Go through his post and please try and find another paragraph that I could have written that sentence about.
“You said he ignored that possibility.”
Reading disability…I said he acknowledged, then ignored.
“you said that his article was "not worth reading" based on the fact that his assertions disagreed with yours.”
I said it wasn’t worth reading because…”It seems like your picking and choosing what you want to write in order to fit your preconceived notions”. How does that state that his assertions disagreed with mine?
“You provided even less evidence as to why you believed Skip would definitely be the odd man out.”
I really didn’t think it was necessary. Skip is a lesser player than Ludwick. Is there a question about that? So why would Ludwick lose playing time? Seemed pretty obvious to me, but since you desired more “evidence…I went on to provide it.
“Right now, today, taking in all factors (defense, salary, production), Ludwick is the better player.”
Defensively, Ludwick is obviously better, although he’s no gem. Salary is really a wash, because the Sox picked up all of Manny’s salary for the rest of this season. And production is pretty equal this season, but Manny has not had the luxury of having an Albert Pujols batting behind or in front of him. Even David Ortiz has been injured or slumping much of the season. Clearly putting Manny in front or behind Pujols would increase his production, probably past the slight advantage Ludwick has to this point in the season.
Really thats all beside the point though, because the point should be to compare Skip and Manny, but that wasn’t done, which was my point in the original post.
“Your assumption about protection is based entirely on the psychological effects of Manny’s reputation being better protection, and that is an extremely tenuous stance.”
I don’t think its tenuous whatsoever. You pitch to Manny Ramirez or Ryan Ludwick in a key situation…who do you choose?
“While Ludwick may turn out to be a one-year wonder, trade deadline deals are typically about this year. “
Could Ludwick not turn out to be a 2/3 of a year wonder? My point is, you take guarenteed production over possible. Manny is a guarentee because he’s done it before. He’s tested in big situations and comes through.
“Nice attempt to criticize at the end, but you failed miserably. I never stated my opinion about his assertions at all”
I never said you did, I simply said that I choose to analyze things rather than just accepting them. I suggested you try it, because you had not made any assertions.
“You just said he was wrong, and because he disagreed with you he was being intentionally misleading to make his points. “
I guess he is either misleading or uninformed, because it didn’t take 4 prospects for the Dodgers to get Manny. I felt that he was misleading because the omissions in his post conveniently would have supported the other side of the argument. I called him out because he gets a lot of read on this site, not because I disagreed with him. It should be more accurate than that…
“I can agree that he didn’t make a solid case, but you made none at all. “
I guess this is where the heart of the discussion is. I’m not one of only a few people making long posts several times a week and probably getting paid for it. I’m just a reader of this site. You can be sure that if I was making posts that 100s of people would read, I’d support my assertions and make sure there as accurate as possible. But there are probably less than 30 people that read my post. I didn’t need to justify my response until someone felt keen enough to respond to it (i.e. you).
Now usually I find posts on here to be very interesting, insightful, with minimal flaws. But I just couldn’t help noticing the flaws in this post, so I felt it necessary to call the writer out.
I do hope that you write carefully in subsequent posts, as your criticism of my original post has been entirely unwarranted.
by CrimsonBirdFan on Aug 3, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps an high school composition class should be in your future.
All absolute assertions require evidential backing, specifically when you are making a condemnation of another for his/her vagueness and/or exclusion. It is intellectually dishonest to assume that your assertions are obvious to all while criticizing another for making the same assumption.
” ‘You said he ignored that possibility.’
Reading disability…I said he acknowledged, then ignored.”
This isn’t a “reading disability,” but apparently you have some difficulty with understanding the theme of your own statements. I did not state that you said he was too incompetent to understand that the possibility existed. Whether or not he first acknowledged it does not discount the fact that you claim he “ignored” it. That was exactly your accusation. Even in your rebuttal here you acknowledge that was your initial statement. I’m sorry that you can’t see those as the same thing.
from this rebuttal:
“I said it wasn’t worth reading because…"It seems like your picking and choosing what you want to write in order to fit your preconceived notions". How does that state that his assertions disagreed with mine?”
from your original post:
“completely disregarding the fact that he would have seen minimal decrease in playing time.”
Your assertion that it was based on preconceived notions is based on your statement that he did not fully qualify the statement that Ludwick would be replaced instead of Schumaker. You furthered that with the statement that he “completely disregarded” the fact that Ludwick would see minimal decrease in playing time. This is categorically untrue from his original post, and that was my original point. He did not “completely disregard” that in order to make his article fit, he simply disagreed with your belief that Ludwick would not be the one whose playing time was reduced. Consequently, he disagreed with your basic premise; and you blasted his article for it. The primary point to my initial response to you was that YOU were the one who ignored presented arguments in favor of your own biases.
“Really thats all beside the point though, because the point should be to compare Skip and Manny, but that wasn’t done, which was my point in the original post.”
No, this was your idea of what the article should have been about. Red Baron obviously didn’t agree with this. He made his point as to why, and he moved on to the primary theme of the article. I think you state the very obvious here, in that the point of your original post was that you disagreed with his originial assumption and chose to lambaste his article because of this. That was exactly why I attacked your post, in that you called the author intentionally dishonest because you disagreed with his assumptions. If you had simply attacked his assumptions, then I wouldn’t have attacked your post in such a manner.
“Could Ludwick not turn out to be a 2/3 of a year wonder? My point is, you take guarenteed production over possible. Manny is a guarentee because he’s done it before. He’s tested in big situations and comes through.”
Could Manny also not turn out to flop when changing leagues for the first time in his career at such an advanced age? What if games are fun, but they prove nothing. Right now, Ludwick is producing just fine; and there is no need to spend any number of prospects for a similar rental player. You can’t base salary decisions based on a deal that was given to another team, either. That’s just bad logic.
“I guess he is either misleading or uninformed, because it didn’t take 4 prospects for the Dodgers to get Manny. I felt that he was misleading because the omissions in his post conveniently would have supported the other side of the argument. I called him out because he gets a lot of read on this site, not because I disagreed with him. It should be more accurate than that…”
Even had you been talking about two top-tier prospects, that doesn’t tip the scales definitively in the favor of trading for Manny. So, I don’t see how you can make the definitive claim that it “supported the other side of the argument.”
“I guess this is where the heart of the discussion is. I’m not one of only a few people making long posts several times a week and probably getting paid for it. I’m just a reader of this site. You can be sure that if I was making posts that 100s of people would read, I’d support my assertions and make sure there as accurate as possible. But there are probably less than 30 people that read my post. I didn’t need to justify my response until someone felt keen enough to respond to it (i.e. you).”
The underlying theme to this forum since I’ve been a member has been that you can make any statements you wish, but you had better be prepared to substantiate those claims. You didn’t, and I called you on it. I was also not the only one, as even one of the other editors took umbrage with your tone and tenor. You are making posts that 100s of us are reading, and more so, you blatantly attacked the journalistic integrity of an article without provocation. As it were, your attacks were based on a difference of opinion about the conclusion from presented factual information. Because the author’s assumptions upon which he based his article were different from yours, you accused him of misleading his audience on purpose. No matter the size of your audience, you should feel compelled to make your point clearly when criticizing any individual so harshly. Especially if the matter of integrity is involved.
“I do hope that you write carefully in subsequent posts, as your criticism of my original post has been entirely unwarranted.”
Again, you have not presented any evidence that my original criticism was unwarranted. It was simply not appreciated by you, but that isn’t the same thing. Your attack on the original post was done in an incorrect manner for discussion. You could have easily discussed the disagreement you had with his intial conclusion upon which he based his article. Instead, you attacked the entire article because you disagreed with his conclusion. He did not “pick and choose” his arguments in order to support the theme of article. He stated an assumption at the beginning of his article, and then consistently addressed the topic using that assumption as his guide. That is basic editorial writing, and he did it correctly.
Let me start by saying...
I had written a more detailed post, but decided to just delete it all. There is really no need to continue this conversation, because it is pointless and baseless. To be completely honest, I don’t have the time. I enjoy reading this board, not especially posting for this very reason. Some people have all the time of day to make a detailed post to substantiate every claim. That doesn’t make their argument more accurate. It just proves that you have the time to write on a message board.
My point of my post was to call out the author for misleading or uninformed information. It was not based on the fact that I disagreed with the theme of his post. It was about the integrity and/or knowledge involved with the essay. Either he was misleading or misinformed and his assumptions on which he based his post on were inherently flawed.
My point was that Skip vs Manny et al is a much better comparison than Ludwick vs Manny et al. I’m sorry if you don’t like the way I presented it, I just expected there to be more accurate “assumptions” involved.
by CrimsonBirdFan on Aug 3, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Seems a little harsh
There was a lot more to the post than just whether or not we should pony up for a more expensive version of Barry Bonds minus the steroids.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 2, 2008 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
You must not have thought it worth reading
since, as etp points out below, you didn’t bother. Thanks for all the valuable insight, however.
Try to read my post before criticizing...
” You must not have thought it worth reading
since, as etp points out below, you didn’t bother”
I read that…thats why may title was “Why do you acknowledge, then ignore that Skip would have been the OF replaced?” Did you not read that part of my post?
by CrimsonBirdFan on Aug 3, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Man Brewers are going to blow his arm up
But the trade is sure working out for them so far
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 2, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Was thinking the same thing
They’re pushing him pretty hard. He’s as durable as anyone, but you gotta wonder if he can keep this up for 2-3 more months.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 2, 2008 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
thats his next teams problem.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
my thoughts exactly
if you’re going for that rental, burn that candle as close as you can. Especially if you’re not going to try and compete in the FA market.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 2, 2008 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I get that part of it
Still it’s in their interest to have him sharp end of September and possibly playoffs. I don’t think that pushing him out there in the 9th, at 100 pitches, and a 3 run lead is the right move.
Burn that candle too close and it ends up burning the Brewers when they need him most.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 2, 2008 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
That's why if
we keep pressure, we have a chance. If they had a WC lead, they may relax. They don’t, so they won’t. It isn’t just every game counts for us, but it does for them as well.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 2, 2008 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
starving
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
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