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wrong on wainwright

Birdos_avatar_tiny by lboros on Comment 260 comments

the indecision over wainwright continues; per this morning’s paper, his role apparently depends upon carpenter’s health. if carp can pitch, then wainwright will be a reliever; if carp can’t, wainwright will be a starter. i reiterate what i said a few days ago ---- a player like wainwright should never be treated as a utility guy. (it suddenly occurs to me ---- pujols was tlr’s designated utility guy in the ’07 all-star game. hmmmm . . . . ) and i still don’t see the marginal gain of putting wainer into the pen under any circumstances. the team hasn’t blown a save since the perez / mcclellan regime took over in the 8th and 9th innings; some close calls, sure, but you’re always going to have those. add springer to that pair, and the back end of the pen is pretty tight; how do you improve anything by displacing one of those guys to fit wainwright in? i guess the argument is that it shores up the 6th / 7th innings; you’d be able to pitch mcclellan there, with perez setting up in the 8th and wainwright throwing the 9th. springer fills in for whoever’s tired / ineffective under this scenario, and franklin / izzy sopping up the unimportant innings. . . . . but you achieve the same thing, imho, if you leave the kids at the back end of the game, use franklin / thompson in the 6th / 7th, and get bulk innings from izzy, garcia, plus whomever wainwright displaces from the rotation --- presumably pineiro.

i’d be surprised if wainwright confers a marginal gain of even 1 win at the back of the bullpen; granted, the kids are bound to blow a game or two at some point, but wainwright wouldn’t be perfect either. but in the rotation? he’s worth about 1/5 of a win per start over pineiro (as measured by PRAR and team w-l record in the pitchers’ starts); even if he only takes 7 turns down the stretch, that’s about 1.5 wins of expected gain. nearly half of the cards’ remaining games are against the league’s best rotations ---- the dbacks (webb / haren / johnson), cubs (zambrano / harden / lilly), and brewers (sheets / sabathia). if they save wainwright for the 9th, they may not have many leads for him to protect. the team needs both him and carp in the rotation to match the zeroes that opposing starters are going to post against the cardinal hitters.

the argument is probably moot, because from the sound of things i doubt that carpenter’s going to be able to pitch much (if at all) for the rest of the year; he’s still complaining of muscle discomfort, and he hasn’t thrown a baseball in over a week; it doesn’t make any sense to push it. assuming carp remains on the shelf, then wainwright will go into the rotation (replacing thompson) and the bullpen will stay as it is. adding both wainwright and carpenter to the rotation would give the cards their best chance; should they be lucky enough to have the opportunity, i'd hate to see tony / dave miss it. but it sounds as if they're going to . . . . .

now is probably not the time to rehash this, but there’s no comfort to be taken from tony n dave's handling of the pitching staff during last year’s stretch run. the rotation stabilized in august, you may recall, posting a 3.72 aggregate era for the month --- the best mark in the league ---- and reeling off something like 12 quality starts in a row, something that not even the 2004-05 rotations were able to do. the starting pitchers were on a roll, and therefore so was the team --- by september 4 they’d nosed above .500 for the first time all year and were only 1 game back in the standings. tony n dave chose that moment to improve the rotation by adding mark mulder and mike maroth to it, creating a 7-man cycle whose benefits were not readily apparent to most of us; mulder lasted 4 innings in his first try, maroth lasted less than 2, and the cardinals gave up 6 runs or more 5 times in the first turn through the 7-man rotation. the idea was scrapped at that point, but the damage was done --- the team had gone 1-6 and fallen 4 games off the pace, and the rotation never regained its rhythm. when something’s working, sometimes it’s best just to leave it alone. the mcclellan / perez bullpen has been working; don’t mess with the formula.

i know i sound sour this morning, but all in all i think the cards did ok for themselves this weekend; they took advantage of a 1-3 stretch by the brew crew and picked up 2 games. somehow i had it in my mind that their 2-game showdown w/ milwaukee was this week, rather than next; they’ve got 5 easy games at home between now and that big series, while the brewers face a mild challenge in the resurgent astros. if the cards win 4 of 5, they’ll likely be in position to move back into the wild-card lead when the brewers come to town. and it looks like they’ll miss sabathia; he is pitching tonight, and his next turn will fall on sunday 8/24 because of an off day, so he won’t be available vs the cards on 8/26 or 8/27. if yost wanted to, he could pitch sabathia this saturday (8/23) and then turn him around on short rest to pitch vs st louis on 8/27, but that’d be a pretty desperate thing to do in late august; not even yost is that stupid. so we can safely assume that sabathia won’t be appearing during the 2-game series here. sheets probably will pitch the opener; he’s scheduled to start tomorrow, and because of off-days on thursday and monday his next natural turn would fall on 8/26 in st louis.

items:

  • i haven’t seen a whole lot written about kyle lohse’s wicked home/road split: 3.08 era at home with a .635 opponent ops, 5.40 era on the road with an .883 opponent ops. those figures don’t include yesterday’s start. . . . . that’s another factor to consider as we mull the risks / rewards of throwing lots of years + millions at lohse moving forward.
  • i’m sure ankiel’s whiff with one out and the bases loaded yesterday didn’t shock anybody. it shouldn’t have: in 26 plate appearances with a man on third and less than 2 out, ankiel has struck out 11 times. he also has drawn 0 walks in those situations; teams are exploiting him mercilessly. in those 26 easy rbi opportunities, he has only 7 runs batted in --- he’s stranded the runner at 3d about three times as often as he has knocked him in.
  • brendan ryan’s gone 4 for 25 since his demotion to memphis, but 2 of the hits were for extra bases --- a homer and a double.
  • daryl jones has made an encouraging first impression at double A --- .281 / .477 / .469 through his first 85 or so plate appearances. that obp is not a typo; he has drawn 21 walks to go along with his 18 hits to date. this guy only turned 21 years old 7 weeks ago, and he has always had highly regarded raw tools; the organization’s outfield depth gets depthier.

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Carp to the bullpen or bust!

I’m only going to rehash this one more time. Carp should’ve been designated for the bullpen for 2008 from the start. This is even more apparent given his recent injury. If he comes back as a starter again this year, I’m afraid as to what may happen.

I completely agree on the Wainwright front. It makes no sense to make him a utility guy. He’s a top-flight starter and the Cards do not currently have one on the roster. Why must Tony N Dave make this so damn difficult?

by silent_bob on Aug 18, 2008 8:41 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is only through the struggle

that Peter Gammons will sing your praises on Sunday Night Baseball. And Buzz Bizzinger will write books about you.

And really, isn’t that what it is all about?

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 18, 2008 8:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the struggle is more meaningful

than, you know, putting your best team together and winning baseball games.

by mattybobo on Aug 18, 2008 10:17 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why?

Why should Wainwright be headed to the rotation and Carp be headed to the pen? A difference in the injury?

by sdrone on Aug 18, 2008 9:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Short Answer: Yes

The big reason though is the length of time away from pitching. I assume Carp’s shoulder problems is from putting that much stress on a shoulder that isn’t used to it right now, it has been 1.5 years since he pitched competitively and he is now trying to pitch in a Pennant race which is undoubtedly adding more stress to his shoulder than if he had come back slowly at the start of a season. If he came in for 1-2 innings at a time I think he would start building strength without putting too much stress on his shoulder.

by StLHugo on Aug 18, 2008 9:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I keep harping on this but...

WW veolcity was way down in Springfield saturday night…the stadium gun had him 84-86 all night with a couple 88 and one 91 with a finger injury i wasnt expecting a drop in velocity…now i know stadium guns usually arent to be trusted but if anything they are high…this worries me so much more than command, which was great for him…i cant find anywhere that says his velocity was good in his start everyone just talks about the results but he was facing the worst team in the TL which is double-A of course he is going to have good numbers…i just hope we are not rushing him back

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 8:55 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At this point, I'd be surprised if Loshe came back...

he deserves props for being basically the only sure thing in the rotation for most of the season after WW injury, but now with the others stepping up, he has become the weakest link…if cost containment is your goal, I just think the Cardinals would be far better off taking a chance on the kids/picking up another reclaimation project/milking a decent season from Piniero, than tossing a big contract at Loshe, that they are probably going to be sorry for no later than it’s third year.

by tbell61 on Aug 18, 2008 9:01 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Carp Confusion

From the notebook today…

The 2005 NL Cy Young Award winner left the Aug. 10 start with sharp pain in what initially was described as his triceps area. Afterward, Carpenter and the club said he could not duplicate the pain during rotator cuff exercises moments after he left the game. But Carpenter said Sunday that he was then referring to pain that preceded his shoulder surgeries in 2002 and 2003.

So he couldn’t reproduce pain that wasn’t there in the first place? I’m having enough trouble making sense of the Cardinals press releases, let alone Strauss’s jumbled narratives of the problem.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 18, 2008 9:17 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

With Carpenter we should be looking at 2009

I dont care if Carp pitches a single inning the rest of 2008, we gotta make sure he is fully healthy and ready for 2009. I wanna see Carp and Wainwright pitching together in the same rotation next year dominating the NL. Should be an impressive 1,2 punch!

Wainwright for sure should be headed to the rotation, BUT, only if he too is fully healthy. I’d be fine if he didn’t pitch again in 2009. The odds are against us making a run this year so i’d error on the side of caution with both of our horses!

Milt Thompson FTW!

by gossard56 on Aug 18, 2008 9:22 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Standings

We are 2 games out of a playoff spot? How are the odds against us?

by llabyellov on Aug 18, 2008 10:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

According to ESPN

We have a 20.7% chance of getting a playoff spot, 19.4% of the Wild Card 1.3% for Division.

MIl has a 71.3% chance of a playoff spot, 62.5% for the Wild Card, 8.8 for the Division.

Cubs have a 89.9% of the Division 98.8 of a Playoff spot

by StLHugo on Aug 18, 2008 10:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What

were Colorado’s chances at this time last year?

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 18, 2008 10:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Aug 18th, 2007

11.8Div 12.5WC 24.3POffs

http://www.coolstandings.com/baseball_standings.asp

That is actually where ESPN gets their odds.

by StLHugo on Aug 18, 2008 11:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks

All we need is some guy in a wheelchair behind home plate with a dog.

Anyone remember that guy in Colorado last year?

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 18, 2008 12:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My question is this:

Does anyone think Carpenter will be back fully healthy in ‘09? At that point, he will (pretty much) have not pitched in two years. Can anyone really expect, or even consider, him to come out and throw 200 innings of decent ball? Assuming even Wainwright comes back healthy for next year, I’d say this is the rotation right now:

Wainwright
Carpenter
Wellemeyer
Pineiro
Garcia

If Carpenter only throws 125-150 innings (if even that healthy), it could be a long year, even if we score 800 runs.

I think that Carpenter’s health alone tips the front office’s hand and we have to resign Lohse or Looper. Maybe not. Maybe Duncan tries to convert McClellan and Franklin to starters next year. Hell, maybe Izzy. Who knows what they’re thinking. The thing I assume, looking at that list, is that Wainwright and Carpenter are absolutely aces when completely healthy, but when they’re not…Wellemeyer is our #1 next year. He was out of baseball in May of 2007.

by stlfan on Aug 18, 2008 9:47 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Motte can discover some sort of breaking pitch....

then we can probably safely shift McClellan to the rotation.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 18, 2008 10:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Carpenter is going to be on the DL

periodically the rest of his career. His mechanics are fraught with problems. The extension they gave him will turn out to be a big mistake, I’m afraid.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 11:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where is the flaw in his mechanices?

I haven’t been able to see them. Help me out.

by Evilfrog on Aug 18, 2008 11:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He has an inverted L

Basically he overloads his arm early in his delivery that creates excessive stress on the joints.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 11:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I got kinda lost there

but I have to say it was an impressive presentation. And I think the guy knows what he is talking about.
Carp did so well there for a while that I think we forget that we plucked him , in the first place, from a team that did not want to wait out a long DL for him.

by the Tewk on Aug 18, 2008 10:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Incorrect comparison to Pineiro

First off I think Wainwright should start. This note is just to point out a flaw in the comparison.

Just a reminder of what lboros mentioned in an earlier post; The numerous off days and lack of rainouts result in needing a fifth starter only four more times this year. Without setting the rotation against opponents a fifth starter woudl go 9/2, 9/13, 9/20 & 9/25. For Wainwright to take 7 turns, he would need to displace one of the other pitchers. I don’t have access to match PRAR to match AW against one of the others. Comparing 4 Pineiro replacement starts gets you .8 wins or about what would come from bullpen session. Again I am not suggesting or in favor of AW in the pen.

by ubeddie on Aug 18, 2008 10:15 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a fair point ubeddie

but the conclusion still holds. displacing pineiro for even 4 starts would be worth almost 1 full win - and if adam displaces looper or lohse for the other 3 starts, i’m ok with that. the cards need a 1-2 combo that’s capable of matching opposition combos like webb / haren and zambrano / harden and sheets / sabathia. the only 1-2 combo the cards have that is potentially capable of matching that is carpenter / wainwright. the other pitchers have pitched well, but they’re still #3s at best.

by lboros on Aug 18, 2008 12:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess I am missing the History

Tony speaks of Historical perspective and such. Wainer had 3 total saves for the 2006 season…1 was a 3 inning save early. So wainer saves two games. Goes to the Post Season and saves 4. True two were very important…but he only did a good job in those in that he didn’t lose. Loading the bases in one and allowing two on in another.

I guess I am just restating. Why do we have to have Wainer close just because he closed a handfull of games in 2006 as a rookie. All to replace a rookie who has closed a handfull of games? We have to change what we are doing now with what we had in 2006 because it worked in 2006 which is what we have now?!?

…and you leave the fox with the grain and the doctor is your mother.

by Harknights on Aug 18, 2008 10:19 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i assume you're talking about perez as the rokoie who has closed a handfull of games...

not to mention mcclellan, who is the impressive rookie who surprised us all by making the big league club, and has pretty much been our bullpen ace all year (with apologies to springer, who has the innings limitation)… kinda like wainwright in 2006.
this is so maddeningly frustrating. blah.
on a positive note, the hungarian said something in the game yesterday (i forget who was actually batting) about how it made no sense for dusty to have the guy bunt. it was one of the smartest things i’ve heard him say like, ever.

by mattybobo on Aug 18, 2008 10:27 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

because if we use wainer as closer as we did in '06

it of course means we will win the world series!

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 1:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good post today, but a little depressing

to be reminded of the Mulder/Maroth fetish late last season. Lohse’s splits have been interesting this season and seem to be additional evidence that Busch III is a pretty strong pitcher’s park. I heard during yesterday’s broadcast that the Birds are the top hitting team in the NL on the road. Team splits are (road) .283/.357/.443/.799 and (home) .271/.339/.413/.752 at home. Interestingly enough, our pitchers not named Lohse don’t seem to find Busch II quite so friendly as the slash lines are pretty similar and the team ERA is higher at home despite a .017 lower BABIP at home.

I am too lazy to calculate FIPs for home/road, but the Colonel’s OPS against is .111 higher at home, Looper’s is .082 higher, but Pinata and Wainer have both been more effective at home. There just may not be enough data here to really draw any meaningful conclusions. Sigh.

Another reason that Wainer to the ‘pen is just a bad idea: Perez has struggled when not given the ninth inning. After succeeding in pretty spectacular fashion in the 9th (slash line against since recall from Memphis = .105/.261/.105/.366), what possible reason could TLR/Dunc have to jerk him around? To put a different spin on TLR’s own quote, “Historically, it’s been proven that that’s the worst thing you can do to a prospect.”

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 18, 2008 10:55 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree completely

Leave Perez in the 9th inning role short of a injury. Put the others in their proper roles and have AW come back as a starter. In terms of the 5th starter situation, I think less starts for Pinero is probably a good thing down the stretch. This offense needs to start being a bit more consistent (a bit too late) and some Looper-ish starting pitching

Speaking of Looper, I highly doubt we will re-sign him unless he gives a big discount. What do you think he could command on the open market?

by riotmute on Aug 18, 2008 11:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Looper

More than he got to come to us ($5-6/MM per year over three, IIRC) and less than what Suppan got from the Brewers. I think a two-year deal for $18 MM would probably do it. Wouldn’t it be crazy if there was a bidding frenzy for his services?

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 11:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The thing about Looper is

It’s hard to imagine him being worth 8-9 million a year; at the same time, he’s done well with the transition to starting, hes reliable and he is Suppan-like in that he will usually keep you in the game so he may very well be worth that money. You see teams giving starters 15 million and then they spend the entire year on the DL……tear….

by riotmute on Aug 18, 2008 12:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Looper

He has sort of bad timing. Had he been a FA last winter, with 2 seasons of starting under his belt, he might have done fairly well. He’s still going to do fine this offseason, but the field of available, desireable, FAs is much larger. Remember, last year the big names were Silva and Lohse. one got a stupid big deal and one did not. Looper probably would have been able to cash in a bit more then than now.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 18, 2008 12:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jones

For a guy with “raw” tools, that sure is a lot of free passes he’s drawn. This just re-affirmes what the club should do this offseason — look to deal some outfield and pitching prospects for a good, veteran middle infielder or a top flight middle infield prospect that’s ready to play at the big league level. There will be some decent trade targets on the horizon this offseason that St. Louis should be able to take a look at, including:

Brandon Wood
Ben Zobrist
Reid Brignac
Brian Roberts
Khalil Greene

I also think the Yankees are starting to sour on Robinson Cano, and could definitely use some outfield and pitching depth. I’d love to see his batting potential get a fresh start in St. Louis.

I’m not advocating trading for any of these guys, but the club certainly needs to kick the tires on each and every one of them since they would all be pretty significant upgrades to the MI’s on the current roster, and we wouldn’t even have to sacrifice guys who are going to be part of our future.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 11:15 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seems like we only have one super prospect

we’re willing to part with—Bryan Anderson. So we need to find a trade partner with a need at catcher. The Yankees might fight, as would the Marlins. Mo really needs to map out a nice swap and go approach some people with ideas. Competing in free-agent auctions is just not the way to fill out the team.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 11:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not talking about super prospects though

I’m talking about mid-level prospects in the outfield and pitching ranks. I think John Jay and Joe Mather could draw some serious interest on the trade market given their skills, and I’m sure that Mitchell Boggs, Jess Todd, and Jason Motte are bound to draw some trade interest in the offseason if a team is looking for pitching depth and a possible flamethrowing 8th or 9th inning guy. Considering the market and what the club is currently carrying, the Cardinals don’t really have a spot for any of those guys that isn’t already filled by a better player or prospect. For that matter, you could probably throw Allen Craig and David Freese in there as well, considering The Walrus should be ready by 2010.

I’d be shocked if a team like the Yankees or Tampa wouldn’t jump at the chance to acquire someone like Mather, who looks like he could slug 20-30 homers a year given 500 AB’s, but he’s not a guy that really fits into the long term plans in St. Louis with Rasmus, Ankiel, and Ludwick manning the outfield, with Duncan back (hopefully) in mid 2009 and Brian Barton also around to add depth.

I agree that Anderson should be shopped, but if you could trade him and a couple other prospects mentioned above to a team for someone who can come in and produce in the middle infield, I think you have to make that trade.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 12:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Largely agree

Personally, I would like to see us hang on to Jess Todd and Jason Motte. The former could be a very high ceiling guy; the latter could probably help immediately in the pen once he gains control of a breaking ball (which he is in the process of doing, BTW).

I think realistically Mather would only stick if Skip or Barton are traded. Who knows? It’s a crapshoot right now as to which of those three will be on the club next April. Mather can supposedly play RF, so at least he has that over Barton, though I think his profile/skillset is too similar to Ludwick’s for a bench player.

All I really mean to say is that of the bonafide everybody-says-they’re-good prospects, only Anderson appears to be a man without a country. He’s our best hope for getting back a middle infielder. I just don’t know whether Boggs, Parisi or even Garcia would have significant trade value, much less Craig and Freese, Stavinoha, Worrell, et al.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 12:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mather/Ludwick

First off, let me say that I am not in favor of trading either unless we get a great MI or MI prospect in return. That being said, if a deal were to be made, I am going to advocate trading Ludwick before trading Mather.

First, the case FOR Ludwick. Ludwick has over 400 at bats this year and is hitting .306/.381/.612 w/31 homers and 93 rbi and counting. For his career he has over 1000 major league at bats with a .273/.344/.511 line w/49 homers and 189 rbi. He is way outperforming his career totals, but is healthy for possibly the first time in his career and is showing what he can really do.

I know that Ludwick is slightly (read as a bit of an understatement) more proven right now than Joe Mather. I get that. Duncan was more proven than Ludwick coming into this year.

Mather currently has 115 at bats in the major leagues. He has a .252/.317/.478 line. That line is much worse than Ludwick’s this year and slightly (not really an understatement this time) worse than Ludwick’s career line.

Mather is four years younger than Ludwick. Mather’s career line in the minors at age 25 is .258/.333/.461. In the last two years, however, Mather’s line is .281/.374/.554. He is starting to put it all together.
At age 25, by comparison, Ludwick’s stats in the minors were: .258/.373/.483.

Mather, I believe, has a very slight edge defensively. Ludwick, probably has a better value on the trade market because of his All-Star appearance this year and his opportunities to be shown in the spotlight all season long at the big league level.

Concluding: As I said in the start, I don’t want to trade either…but I think that given Ludwick’s history with injuries, given the age difference, given the defensive difference (as slight as it may be), and given the fact that Ludwick is better trade bait…you have my argument.

by stlfan on Aug 18, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

FWIW

the only way I trade Ludwick is if I get a deal similar to what the Reds got for Josh Hamilton — a stud player or combo of stud players that are going to help me win next season.

You seem to be sayint the Mather could come up and just replace Ludwick. I really don’t think he can do that. He’s not as good defensively as Ludwick is, and his isolated power is where the greatest disparity in their numbers is. I think this is Ludwick finally reaching his potential, and if the club can get two more years of this level of production out of him he might just help us win a championship. I don’t think you trade a guy like that, since you’ll never get fair value out of him.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 1:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i cant say i would be against trading Ludwick

esp for the right price. With our outfield getting “depthier” we might as well sell high on Ludwick because it would be near impossible to repeat this season he is having. he is right in the middle of his peak years and is bound to decline if not next year then soon after. if we can flip him for a good young MIF or MIF prospect then you have to pull thr trigger. Mather and Rasmus could somewhat duplicate or even surpass his production since both could play in the OF with Ank. of course if Rick doent re-sign things could get tricker…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 1:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And what is to say Ludwick doesn't regress?

I hope the same as everyone else that this is Ludwick’s true ability and that just being able to stay healthy has helped him, but this is a career year by far for him. I wouldn’t put too much stock on the same thing happening next season.

by StLHugo on Aug 18, 2008 1:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Having a Career Year

can you really apply that label to a guy who’s never played a full season in the bigs?

The problem with talking about Ludwick “regressing to the mean” is that he’s had so many injuries that his “mean” may never really have been established. The hope is, of course, that he’s establishing his mean right now. Wouldn’t that be sweet?

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 18, 2008 2:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

most guys arent 30 in their first full season

most players have career years between 27-31. only great hitters dont significantly delcine in productivity after those peak years and i dont see Luddy as a great hitter.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 2:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Basis?

On what do you base your assessment that Ludwick is not a great hitter?

As of today, we don’t even have one full injury-free season to look at. Last year he was healthy and good, this year he’s healthy and great.

My point is that he’s a special case in that he has yet to establish a reliable “baseline” upon which to guage subsequent performances. You are assuming that, because he’s 30, he is peaking right now. Even if that is the case, we don’t know how far he will slip. Maybe his “base” is just a notch below his current pace, maybe it’s way below, like AAA level. Because he’s never been healthy, it’s hard to say.

What’s weird is that the Cardinals have two guys like this, with Ankiel being the other.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 18, 2008 5:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, yes, I would assume that he's peaking now.

How much better do you think he’ll get at age 31 and above? But I do think he could sustain something like this production for at least a couple more years.

But given our need for better MI production, now is the time to trade him.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 18, 2008 6:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would love to see what kind of offers

could be generated for Lud, but it would have to be a pretty strong one to let him go.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 18, 2008 8:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i completely agree

there is no way i would trade him for 2 mid-level prospects…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 9:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

youre right he might be a great hitter

he might be Barry Bonds and have his best years after he turns 35, you never know for sure that is one thing that you can count on in baseball…but like you said he has never been healthy and it doesnt get easier to stay healthy as you get older…if you look at his career numbers including minors (my basis) one thing he has always had is power and that is one thing that can drop off quickly because of a slowing bat…but i could be wrong it wouldnt be the first time…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 9:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Establishing his mean

This, technically, isn’t his first full season healthy.

In 2000-2001, he had 993 at bats in A+, AA, and AAA ball. Plus, in 2006, he had 508 at bats in AAA. In those three years (his only completely healthy ones to date) he put up these OPS: .858/.825/.848. What we’re seeing right now might be a bit above the mean…but it might also not be too far above.

by stlfan on Aug 18, 2008 10:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he is 30 yrs old

and this is the only season he has had remotely close to this…plus: good MIF > good corner OF. we arent saying trade him for a mid-level prospect but if you are going to trade him then do it after a career year that he is likely never to repeat

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 2:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

good MIF > good corner OF

I think that is a highly questionable statement. We have been pretty successful over the last decade with at best league average MIFs largely because of the production from the corner IF and the OF. I also think it is pretty insulting to Lud to refer to him as a “good” corner OF. A “good” corner OF doesn’t lead the league in slugging and sit in the top ten in most offensive categories.

There is absolutely no reason to believe this is some kind of Cinderella year for Ludwick. The only thing that will stop him from hitting is injury and he has been healthy two years in a row now. The only way I would consider trading a cost-controlled OF who will get significant MVP votes would be for a similar type player.

This whole line of logic reminds me of all the off-season talk about how Ankiel was some sort of flash in the pan who wouldn’t be able to hit over a full season. The community projection here was a joke and nowhere near his actual numbers. I took some heat for posting a projection of .285 BA and .350 OBP with 32 HRs and 86 RBI, but that looks pretty close now.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 18, 2008 5:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is how I read good MIF > good corner OF

Given two players with equal production, and one plays 2B and the other plays RF, the one who plays 2B is more valuable because of the lack of 2B resources like that. It’s much easier to find someone to put up above average offensive numbers and play average OF defense than to find someone with the same numbers and average MIF defense.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 18, 2008 6:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, ok if we can find

a MIF that is leading the league in slugging and do a straight up trade then I am down with that. But the MIFs that seem to be available would have to bring a top half of the rotation starter as well. And they have to take Kennedy….

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 18, 2008 8:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes

the offensive production doesnt even have to be equal because 2B and SS are so much more important than corner OF. this is why Hanley Rameriz is so much more valuable than a Matt Holiday.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 9:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

haha

btw, here’s a link to the ankiel projection thread- of note is moboiler’s comment:

“if rick posts a .350 OBP, i’ll do a naked dance around busch stadium.”

Rick’s line, as of today: .277/.350/.528 (.878)

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 18, 2008 7:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

F that

I hope he finishes right on .350, call his bluff

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 18, 2008 7:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no reason?
There is absolutely no reason to believe this is some kind of Cinderella year for Ludwick.

except his entire career before this year youre right…he has always had good power but nothing like this year and his on-base skills are quite a bit above his normal rate nor had he hit for much of an average overall…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 9:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

great article by matthew leach about this

today on the STL home page. Ludwick apparently credits McRae for changing his approach.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 18, 2008 10:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i suspect

we see in red at least part of next year, but not in 2010. scott will see to that

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Aug 18, 2008 10:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Letting Ankiel walk and keeping a platoon of Skip and Mather with Ludwick and Rasmus in the OF

would be better than trading Ludwick. He has replaced Jim Edmonds’ presence in this lineup.

by rlgosnell on Aug 18, 2008 1:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree that is a better option

but I would rather have a MI who can hit either 1 or 2 in the order and going with Raz, Lud, and Ank with either Mather or Barton backing up. Skip has been a nice player, but he will no longer fill a need for us next year unless he somehow magically learns to hit LHPs.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 18, 2008 5:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When talking trade of an outfielder

I advocate dealing a left handed bat, all things being equal. It would take some brass ones for Mozeliak to deal Ankiel since he won’t get much support for it from anyone (coaches, media, fans), but considering you have to make a tough signing decision on him soon, and you’d probably get decent return on him, it would make some sense if you’re going to be a coldblooded capitalist about this.

If you want to play it safer than that, but get a more modest return, Schumaker is the easier option. The lefthanded sticks in the OF are creating more of a redundancy than the righthanded ones IMO. Even more so whenever Rasmus arrives.

by Merry CRasmus on Aug 18, 2008 5:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm with you, this is the offseason in which

Moz needs to think bold thoughts. I think you’ve got to go into this offseason thinking that you’ll need to trade either Ank or Luddy.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 18, 2008 6:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not sure about ankiel

staying. right now the smart business decision may be to sign him and then trade him

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Aug 18, 2008 9:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Anyone can be had for the right price

but Mather fits the Cardinals a lot better than Duncan does in my view. And what makes you think Wallace will be ready for the majors in 2010 when he apparently isn’t even ready to be promoted to Palm Beach in 2008? One of Freese and Craig may be trade bait but certainly not both.

by Mike G on Aug 19, 2008 12:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a .922 OPS at Quad Cities might suggest he is ready

but maybe they’re content having him play the rest of the season with the QC since he has a grand whopping total of 150 minor league at bats.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 19, 2008 12:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

PB vs QC

I beleive they are leaving Wallace at QC because of the possible playoff spot, if QC won’t make the playoffs expect to see him promoted but if there is a chance he can play in the playoffs (whether it is to help the team or just get more ABs doesn’t matter) that is where I expect him to be. He is ready and will probably start next season at AA regardless of where he ends this season.

by StLHugo on Aug 19, 2008 7:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i heart Daryl Jones

i am very (read: overly) excited about what he has done this year. so i would not like to see him as part of a trade. that said, getting someone like Robby Cano would be a big fish to land for our MIF and i could stand to part with a DJ, Jay, Anderson, Mather, etc…about the only other one on that list that i would trade a good prospect for would be Wood, just for his potential and a power hitting shortstops are what dreams are made of…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 12:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why not go after 2 on that list?

Cano would be number one on my list — after hearing Yankee commentators and fans lambast him over the weekend on the YES broadcasts (yes, I was staying with a Yankee fan all weekend, so guess what I got to watch, ICK!) it seems like he’s wearing out his welcome. God forbid they’d ever boo Jeter, who’s making about $15 million more than he’s worth this season. If they think he’s that bad, maybe Cashman would be willing to deal him for someone like Anderson, a catching prospect they desperately need to play everyday in the next couple of years.

Given that, then target a decent SS on the list and see if you can get him for a couple of mid-levels from somewhere. I don’t see Tampa parting with Zobrist since he’s shown some skill with the bat this season, but I believe they’d part with Brignac pretty cheaply, who hasn’t shown much so far but is very young and hasn’t had a ton of AB’s to prove himself.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 12:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

im not sold on Brignac

outside of one minor league season in A+/AA ball, 2006 (which appears to be lucky: approx .375 BABIP), he is been less than impressive with the bat. In AAA this year he had a .298 obp in almost 400 PA’s.

while he might be an upgrade offensively over Izz2 because of his power, i dont think it is enough to trade even a mid-level guy for him.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 12:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

although, i do like the plan

of upgrading both positions!!!

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 12:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not sold on him either

but if you could get him for, say, John Jay, I think you almost have to pull the trigger on that one. There’s a reason why he keeps getting promoted when he’s not putting up huge numbers — either he’s great defensively, or scouts and managers are seeing progression in his toolset at each stop and moving him on. If nothing else, you trade him for a player who probably isn’t going to play in St. Louis anyway, and if he stinks on ice, he can be a gapfiller until Pete Kozma is ready to man the reins, and at a much cheaper cost than signing Izturis or any other veteran SS. You still have Ryan competing for that job next year — whoever hits better gets the job since they’re probably about even defensively.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 1:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kinda like Brent Lillibridge

You don’t hear many bringing his name up anymore. The luster has worn off on that one too. I do think Brignac will become a relatively decent offensive player, for his position. But it may be a few years down the road.

by Merry CRasmus on Aug 18, 2008 2:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly

which is why I’d like to get him now, while he’s still cheap, and then just plug him in and let him play. We’re giving 400+ at-bats to Izturis this year, and Brignac has pop in his bat and isn’t that much worse defensively — plus he’s tons cheaper than Cesar. If he becomes a solid performer that’s great, if not, the club has the option to let him walk in 2011 and go with Kozma.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 2:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If his stock is really down

With Tampa then I’m with you. I’m not sure he can be had for all that cheap though. When I look at them I don’t see anyone really blocking him in the next couple years. If we can get him a second tier prospect on our end I’d do it too, but I’m not convinced that is possible. I agree with the overall premise though.

A situation that I sometimes think could be exploited is the Texas middle infield situation. I don’t claim to know where they stand with keeping Michael Young around at short. I assume Andrus is in their future plans somewhere.

That means to me that Joaquin Arias could probably be had without giving a top prospect. He was in AAA at 21, but then hurt his shoulder last year and missed the season, more or less. He’s still 23. He’s never put up eyepopping numbers, but he has always been several levels above where most kids his age are. He’s fallen way down the pecking order in most people’s minds as far as prospect status. He’s squeezed in the organization from both sides (Young and Kinsler for the here and now, Andrus for the future).

So I tend to think he could be had for cheap, and might be able to help the ballclub next year. The only thing I am not sure is his arm. It used to be plus, but he had shoulder surgery and I don’t know if it has become damaged goods. A big if for sure.

by Merry CRasmus on Aug 18, 2008 6:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A K machine huh?

In 222 AB’s last year at AAA he put up this line:

.279/.403/.455 with 43/38 BB/K ratio

In 384 AB’s at AA in 2006 he put up this line:

.323/.428/.456 with a 65/55 BB/K ratio.

I guess Pujols is a K machine as well isn’t he?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 2:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not actual numbers!

Don’t do it! Don’t try to use actual facts to make an argument!

by chuckb on Aug 18, 2008 6:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 9:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In 395 Major League AB's his line is

.210/.258/.316 with a 25/65 BB/K ratio. And he’s 27.

by rlgosnell on Aug 19, 2008 3:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not sure if I follow

I thought you were taking the day off? do ya live in the city btw?

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 2:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jeff Spicolli =

Khalil Greene. Right, Mr. Hand?

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 5:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well..

I couldn’t resist this discussion. I will try to have more self-restraint tomorrow.

Yeah, I live downtown. I get up to Wrigleyville as little as humanly possible.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 5:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why not?

His career split away from PetCo is .270/.318/.484 and he’s one year removed from hitting 27 homers at the SS position and plays pretty decent defense. If we could get him cheap after his terrible year this year than he’s worth looking at, at the very least.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ok

only if he doesn’t cost us much “green” though

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 2:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think he's owed a ton of money next year

and if he’s arb eligible, he’s certainly not helping that number right now is he?

I believe he’s a free agent after the 2009 season, so I wouldn’t give up any players with value for him, but a couple mid-level guys who aren’t going to play would vastly upgrade that position for next year. Hell, if he hits for a .750 OPS he’d be a giant upgrade over Cesar.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 2:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

signed though '09 for $6.5M

actually, his ‘09 salary is incentive based. it starts at 6.5 and increases $.125M for every at bat milestone (525, 550, 600 ,625 — why it doesn’t increase at 575, I have no idea). But it looks like he might struggle to get to that 525 since I believe he’s on the DL right now and has only played in 105 games this year (389 AB).

which sorta brings up a durability concern. Last season was his first where he played over 150 games. He’s had seasons (games played) of 20 (rookie season), 139, 121, 122, 153, and 105 (so far this year).

(btw, for some reason, I thought B-R had trips to the DL listed on the player pages but I’m not having any luck finding it).

(also, it looks like he’s eligible to come off the DL. His last game played was on July 30 but I have no idea what the injury was. Nevermind. I just found it. He broke his left hand by punching a storage chest during a game. Out 6 to 8 weeks, possibly the rest of the season. Smart.)

References.

Baseball-Reference
First Inning
MLB
Ducksnorts (seriously)

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 3:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

with how well he's playing this year

I’d have probably punched a water cooler hoping to end my season before it got any worse. Although playing bad might get him out of San Diego which would be the best thing that could happen to him unless they trade him to Oakland.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 3:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think...

…the best thing for everyone who brings a bat with them to work is to get out of San Diego. Talk about a murderous place for hitters. Although, if I was a pitcher, I’d be lining up to pitch there…Quite a conundrum.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 18, 2008 5:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

case in point
Talk about a murderous place for hitters.

Adrian Gonzalez. The poor guy. Some stats from this year.

Home: .238/.339/.406
Away: .316/.369/.603

Ouch.

by jdub176 on Aug 18, 2008 8:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't get why he can't hit in Petco

It’s got to be mental because home runs alone wouldn’t raise his average roughly 80 points. The gaps are still gaps and if anything, he might see outfielders playing him deeper in Petco giving him more room in front of them.

I could understand a little difference in average (and I’m well aware of the reluctance to use average as a reliable number……but it measures his basehits and a discrepency like that it substantial) but almost 80 points is a red flag about something.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 10:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A.G.

His BAbip on the road is .328…at home it’s .267. So part of that is luck. Last year his LD% at home was 20%, his BAbip was .309, yet his average was only .267. Petco is just a shitty park in which to hit. I’m sure it gets into their heads too, but those dimensions don’t help.

by jdub176 on Aug 19, 2008 12:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but I would think those dimensions might actually help batting average

I understand that slugging is going to suffer, of course you would expect doubles (and obviously triples, albeit not so much with a guy like AG) to go up which helps balance the drop in homeruns. But I would think the bigger the outfield, the better shot you’ve got at finding green.

I know that’s a simplistic way of looking at it, and he’s probably going to suffer some with balls being caught that would normally be homeruns, I just wouldn’t expect that type of drop in batting average.

But I think you’re right in that it has to effect them mentally, but if pitchers can learn to pitch in Minute Maid, hitters should be able to hit in Petco. Remember how Houston’s pitchers were imploding on a nightly basis (it seemed) the first year of Minute Maid (Enron)?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 19, 2008 1:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hard to say

He’s got 10 doubles at home this year and 12 on the road. 10 and 18 for homers. Here’s something interesting from HBT:

Year Doubles Rank
2004 .895 23
2005 .832 28
2006 .767 30

On the chart, league average = 1. Here’s the link. Don’t know if that will explain much, but it’s food for thought.

But I think you’re right in that it has to effect them mentally, but if pitchers can learn to pitch in Minute Maid, hitters should be able to hit in Petco

Yeah it’s odd that the juicebox is a pitcher’s park this year (park factor is something like 95). I think Lima single-handedly made it into a hitter’s park that first year though. The nonsense in center sure isn’t hitter friendly.

by jdub176 on Aug 19, 2008 1:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ryan actually

has two home runs for Memphis, one in each game yesterday.

by Mike G on Aug 18, 2008 12:22 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

WOW

When did they start using aluminum at the AAA level?!?!?!?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 12:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well if he hits a homer a game playing CF

then we should just call him up right now and stick him in CF! LMAO

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 1:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Probably Super Utility training

for Ryan. See if he can be both a fifth outfielder and utility infielder. 2009 will need someone to fill the role.

by ubeddie on Aug 18, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We could always re-sign Felipe Lopez

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 18, 2008 2:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Spring Training 09 competition

forget about the outfield, we need to see who will win the Super Utility contest.

by ubeddie on Aug 18, 2008 2:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Albuquerque

is a well-known launching pad

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 18, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So who do you think will be traded in the offseason?

I’m thinking it will be either Skip, Ankiel, or Mather…

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 1:56 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ank is a FA after this year

i believe…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 2:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oh

I can never remember when his contract is up. think we’ll re-sign him? I think we probably will, especially if we let Looper and Lohse go.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 2:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No

Has one more year of arbitration remaining

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 18, 2008 2:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ah

that’s what I thought

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i stand corrected

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really don't "get" much of that stuff

arbitration, etc.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 2:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Took a little bit of time

Keith Law posted a lot of good information about it around the draft. Than I just read the CBA to fill any gaps I have.

http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/info/cba.jsp

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 18, 2008 2:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can't believe you read the cba.

Not that I’m doubting you. Don’t get me wrong. I just think it would take a special(?) person to read that thing. I’m sure it helps cure insomnia though….

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 3:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't read it front to back

But to pull detailed information about baseball inner working nothing is better than the source.

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 18, 2008 3:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Skip and possibly Barton.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 2:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you're probably right

those two seem to have the most tradeability. at least to us… now we have to figure out if anyone would want barton (he’s still a pretty big ?)

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 2:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Barton has the least versatitlity (can't play right or center)

which is why I think he will go. It’s too bad, but he’s superfluous with Ludwick playing left.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

I really like the guy, and still think he could be a McGee type of player. Very interesting person too. but I just don’t see much reason to keep him on the team, unless there’s a crazy multiple outfielder trade down the line that doesn’t involve him.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i disagree

Barton can play right and center if it is in a 4th OF role. he cannot play rf everyday but i think he can do center if someone got hurt for an extended period. hell, Johnny Damon played years there and no one has a worse arm than him. Arms in the outfield are overrated to some extent.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 2:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would say he can't play right

And it’s basically based on his arm. Ludwick doesn’t have the best arm for a right fielder (which is why he’ll be moved to left next year imo), but he definitely makes up for it with his bat.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 2:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how many throws does a RF make in a game that determine the outcome?

playing Barton in RF in a spot start would be fine…his greater range would more than make up for his weak arm…but not for an entire season.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 2:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fine, but

that’s not how you decide who’s on the roster. Barton is in a tough spot because Ankiel and Rasmus both have great arms and can play center. Schumaker, Mather and Ludwick can each play all three positions (not well, necessarily, but they can play them). That is an extra-versatile and with the exception of Skip, very powerful outfield:

Ludwick®
Ankiel/Rasmus (L/L)
Rasmus/Ankiel

Bench:
Schumaker (L)
Mather®

Barton taking time from Ludwick in left doesn’t seem like a good idea. And if he can’t play the two positions that Ankiel and Rasmus can, he really can’t be a substitute for either of them. I would love to see him on the team, but they aren’t going to carry six outfielders (unless we can count Mather as a 1B/3B backup—still neither Glaus nor Pujols needs much time off when healthy).

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 3:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Those little (R)s

are supposed to symbolize righthanded. Their names aren’t trademarked yet. Maybe they should be?

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 3:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if you ask the mlb

they would tell you they should be able to copyright players’ names and their statistics, then charge anyone who wants to use them.
/ip related rant

How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor

by themanthemyth on Aug 18, 2008 4:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think this whole thing was based on if we trade an OF

which would leave us with 5. Barton will most likey be better offensively than Skip with his on-base skills and pop, at least more than enough to make up for Skip’s defensive attributes…Barton would be better in CF based on range and plays made than mather or ludwick, even RF for that matter…

Rasmus
Ank
Lud
Mather
Barton

there are a lot of options there and a lot of offense and very good defensive combonations…if you dont feel comfortable with Barton in CF or RF than you have 4 other guys that can play those positions and you can put Barton in LF…is offensive potential is what is key is…anyone who can hit at the top of the order with that speed/on-base combo with a little power is worth keeping, imo.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 3:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I tend to agree

I hope we do go with the 5 man outfield, and get skippy to a team that really needs him (we don’t). If he can keep up his batting this season, and keep showing he can play center, as well as any other outfield, we just may have a pretty valuable trade “chip” (or did I mean Skip?) considering he’s also proven at the major league level. plus, he’d be an inexpensive addition to someone, right?

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 3:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Barton

He’d need to get on base at about a .400 clip to be worth playing ahead of the other three guys because he doesn’t do anything better than any one of those guys except run.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 3:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he gets on base more than all of those

except maybe Ras and that is the most important thing.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 3:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not really

Barton has a good eye, but since his slugging power is limited. He doesn’t get pitched around.

OBPs:
Barton .329
Schumaker: .363
Ludwick: .381
Mather: .317
Rasmus: .346 (minors this season)

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 3:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

your going off of this year only

and not career numbers…if you look at all of their minor league number Barton is better then all of them including Ras

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 3:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In limited duty he has

but he hasn’t proven that he can be the leadoff guy on this team yet or he would have won the job over Skip at some point. He’s much more limited than those other guys because unless he’s getting on base he doesn’t offer anything else.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 3:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

anything else? really?

slg% last 3 years in minors:

Rasmus: .404, .550, .396

Barton: .521, .503, .442

obviously i dont think he has the potential as Colby but he does offer qutie a bit and is more of an overall player than Ludwick or Mather.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 3:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ludwick is a bonafide MVP candidate this year

Barton should be in AAA. There is really no comparison between the two at the moment. There may be at some time in the future, but come on…

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 3:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

again you are just looking at this year!

this year Ludwick is better without a doubt but if you look at the minor league numbers, which is the best way to predict future performances since niether has much MLB exp, Barton has great on-base and speed numbers and good power numbers…Ludwick has great power numbers and decent on-base…

i will take a guy that gets on base more everytime especially when he hits with decent power too…now, Barton may never develop and Ludwick may have 5 more years like this one but based on their past Barton will be a better player when their careers are over, i believe. plus he is four years younger…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 18, 2008 4:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

then ask yourself

why would Cleveland leave him off of their 40 man roster when they needed a bona fide hitter in that spot?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 18, 2008 4:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And what were these teams thinking leaving them off the 40 man roster?

other Rule 5 draftees

Roberto Clemente
George Bell
Bobby Bonilla
Jody Davis
Darrell Evans
Kelly Gruber
Josh Hamilton
Willie Hernandez
Dave Hollins
John Hudek (Selected in minor league portion)
Mike Morgan
Scott Podsednik (Selected in minor league portion)
Bip Roberts
Johan Santana
Joakim Soria
Manny Trillo (Selected in minor league portion)
Derrick Turnbow
Dan Uggla

Not saying Barton will be an All Star, but he “could” become one…..

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 18, 2008 4:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cleveland also cut ryan ludwick

letting him become a minor league FA in ’05 rather than keep him on the 40 man.

And to think, we almost gave john mozeliak’s job to chris antonetti… eek!

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 18, 2008 5:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It gets worse when you look at the season Franklin Gutierrez is having for them.

I didn’t take it as a particularly good sign for Anthony Reyes when he ended up there.

by greenback06 on Aug 18, 2008 5:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ludwick made a few more stops before he ended up

signed as a minor league free agent by the Cardinals. His last stop before here was in Detroit. They never brought him up either.

I think Cleveland thought no one would take Brian Barton because he missed a good chunk of last season with a knee injury that required surgery. They took that risk and lost.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Aug 18, 2008 6:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why?

To me Barton makes up for some of the power with his speed, he is still fairly new to professional baseball, he needs the minor leagues to educate him, yet he is older so that is a tough sell. But once you get beyond that what is so tough to compare? One is a power hitting plus defender while the other looks to be average or slightly below defender (and I still contend he could play RF if he strengthened his arm some) with plus plus speed.

by StLHugo on Aug 19, 2008 8:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's kind of my point.

Though it would be fun to Barton bat lead-off with Rasmus behind him. Double steal, anyone? I think Tony might set a Major League record for hit-and-runs with Albert at the plate.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 3:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ooooo

I like that! Barton/Rasmus/Pujols/Ludwick/Glaus/Ank/Molina is nice

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 3:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Four OFer's?

Maybe we could clone Ozzie and have him play ss and 2b at the same time.

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 18, 2008 3:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

woops

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow! For a second I thought we were playing soft pitch softball

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 4:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my bad

I’m not a very matchup based kind of guy

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The thing about Ankiel that is starting to worry me

is that he is really starting to get too injury prone. That’s my big worry with him. I think he will become a better overall hitter with another year of experience. He has 25-30 HR a year power but will he be able to stay healthy for more than 145 games a season? That’s the big ? I have with him now.

by KYCards on Aug 18, 2008 2:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that worries me a bit too

but I think that he is still becoming an everyday athlete, plus maybe if we stick him in another position after Razzmatazz surfaces, he’ll be ok (I’m starting to come around about having Ankiel play somewhere other than center, I think he’s just going to hurt himself out there… but it would be nice to have a cannon in the far reaches of the park).

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 2:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Starting?

He’s always been injury prone, right?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 2:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not that bad

I wouldn’t really call him prone to injury… but maybe not impervious either.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 2:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lohse

that’s another factor to consider as we mull the risks / rewards of throwing lots of years + millions at lohse moving forward.

Is anyone actually still considering that?

I’m not. Especially not with Scott Boras as his agent. To Kyle I say, “Thanks for the great starts at the ‘man,-we-sure-f’ed-THAT-up-didn’t-we,-Scott?’ discount. Enjoy your ‘09 free agent payday. You earned it. But much like Suppan, we won’t be paying it…”

Besides, Piñata’s crappy contract is eating up too much $$ to really afford Lohse. We’ll have to make due with
  Carp (hopefully!)
  Wagonmaker
  Colonel Mustard
  TBD
  Piñata

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Aug 18, 2008 2:37 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You forgot to one part

“And here’s your offer of arbitration.”

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 2:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The team seems opposed to arb in general

But they would be stupid not to do it in this case.

by DriverZn on Aug 18, 2008 2:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good catch!

Definitely want that in there for the draft pick(s).

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Aug 18, 2008 3:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and if one of those guys doesn't pan out

what then? Boggs? hmm.

also, wouldn’t your quote mean that there are 2 types of people in the world? I’m liking fuzzy logic a bit more…

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 2:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Franklin!

turn him back into the 5th starter he was always meant to be. Plus there will be a signee (Looper, I predict), and Garcia or McClellen could be ready to make the jump.

by guayzimi on Aug 18, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought binary was just off or on

or is it more of a base 10 thing?

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 3:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Base 2

Binary is on or off, in a round about sense but it is really base 2 math. So instead of counting 0-9 for the first digit you just count 0-1, so 0001=1, 0010=2, 0011=3, 0100=4, etc.

by StLHugo on Aug 18, 2008 4:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that sounds more like it

when are we going to switch over to base 20? The Mayan calendar was base 20 and needs no leap year…

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 4:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

base 20, interesting

I have used base 16 before (hexadecimal) but never base 20, so you would count 0-J?

by StLHugo on Aug 18, 2008 4:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All your base are belong to us!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry. Couldn’t resist and felt like throwing a monkey wrench into this discussion since it’s about 5 million feet over my head.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 4:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

explain then

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 3:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maybe if it read

“there are 0010 types of people in the world” you would get it …

by jeff_abs on Aug 18, 2008 3:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ah

I was just being nitpicky then.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 3:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Those top 3 players

all look injury prone to me. I’d still like to offer Lohse a 3 year contract for like 20M.

by azruavatar on Aug 18, 2008 3:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and I'm sure he'd say "no thank you".

but it’s worth a shot I guess.

Btw, is Wagonmaker really injury prone? He’s been hurt once and it was more of a freak thing than anything. Shouldn’t affect his shoulder or elbow……or knee or hip (Izzy) or back or whatever. Right?

Oh, wait. Did he already have TJ? Or am I thinking of someone else? (edit: I just googled “Adam Wainwright Tommy John Surgery” and all I got was articles on Wainwright to the bullpen, whether or not Pujols should have TJ surgery and a prediction on sonofsamhorn.com that Wainwright will be the next big hurler to go down with TJ surgery).

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 3:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no TJS,

but waino has a problem with hyperabduction in his delivery, where his elbow is higher than his shoulders

by jeff_abs on Aug 18, 2008 3:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At Paletta's website, you can see animations of what happens

to pitchers’ shoulders in surgery after about 10 years of throwing like that.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

RIP Richard Kiley

My dad apparently roomed with him in either college or the Navy…can’t remember which.

In a weird coincidence, my first major theatrical role in high school was as Cervantes/Quixote in Man of La Mancha, the role that made Kiley famous. He had a phenomenal voice.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Aug 18, 2008 4:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Btw, I know someone a couple of days ago

posted a link to a site that described the “inverted L”, inverted W, etc. etc. I read the thing a little bit up about Carpenter’s inverted L. If someone has it handy, could you please link it here. I really need to figure this newfangled stuff out.

Also, is there a quick ‘n dirty site that goes over this stuff as well as the “hyperabduction” stuff (I know, lots of “stuffs” but I’m at a bit of a loss for words when it comes to this "stuff")?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 4:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thanks bunches.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 4:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Read a little so far and it's extremely interesting

i have a question though, how does this relate to the Classic pitching camp the Cardinals held before spring training? and does anyone know if they are going to continue doing the camp?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 5:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Classic Pitching Mechanics

While I’m not sure of everything the Cards are advocating with respect to classic pitching mechanics, I think that in general they are moving in the right direction.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2008 10:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Chris O'Leary

says he has one thing in his mechanics that looks problematic. He raises his pitching arm elbow too high, IIRC. Hyperabduction, I think he called it. He’ll probably make it through the next five years without having his shoulder scraped out. I hope….

by Red in Chicago on Aug 18, 2008 3:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now

you are wrong on wainwright.

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 18, 2008 3:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Didn't catch that at first

and then I realized that was something called “call back humor” from the original title of this post.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 4:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bringing it all back home

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 18, 2008 5:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

3/24?

Heck, I’d seriously consider 3/24.

But I’d be SHOCKED if he gets less than 3/33 or 4/36.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Aug 18, 2008 3:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I might be tempted at that 4/36

he just seems like he is really durable and he’s not going to age that quickly

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 3:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no!

no four year contracts to pitchers when we have talent in the system.

How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor

by themanthemyth on Aug 18, 2008 4:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

I knew it was not a good tempting. we really need to start promoting some of those guys when we figure out if they are going to pan out or not.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 4:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If there is real hope for this season

and the Cardinals making the playoffs, this is where the Cardinals need to be as of September 15.

4 GB of Cubs and/or Brewers

No worse than either of those.

After September 15th, the Cubs and Brewers play each other 6 times. The Cardinals play the Cubs 3 times.

The Cardinals would be in a position to win the series vs the Cubs (2-1), improve their standing behind the Cubs to 3 games and allow the Brewers and Cubs to beat up on each other the final 2 weeks. During that final stretch, the Cardinals play Arizona 4 times and Cincy 6.

This would require the Cardinals to gain 3.5 games in the standings from today until September 15th vs the Cubs and lose no ground to the Brewers. Lucky (or unlucky) for the Cardinals, they still have 3 games at home against Chicago before that date.

Do I think they can pull it off? Not without both Wainwright and Carpenter in the rotation, Izzy on a remote island, and a Pujolsian run by the Mang offensively.

However, the opportunity is still there. Look at it this way. The ‘season’ ends September 15th. The Cardinals are 3.5 behind the Cubs and 2 behind the Brewers. If they can get even by that point with both of those teams…It’s Gonna Happen. :D

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 18, 2008 3:53 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do you think they know about elevensies?

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and…
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it’s louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it’s one louder, isn’t it? It’s not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You’re on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you’re on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don’t know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don’t you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Aug 18, 2008 4:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL

very nice man, it fits in with everything quite well. last night I played with a drummer that drummed like the guy who turns into a green puff of smoke…

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 4:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry for asking

but I know I’ve heard that somewhere. Is it “This is Spinal Tap”?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 4:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oh yes

it is

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 4:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More Tap

Nigel Tufnel: look at this one [guitar]. It’s still got the original tags on it. NO DON’T TOUCH IT!
Marty DiBergi: can I look at it?
Nigel Tufnel: No, don’t even look at it!

As a rocker dude myself, this movie is like my bible. I made my kids watch it, since they are now in a band.

youneverknow

by floodOfLove on Aug 19, 2008 1:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If we can sweep the two games at Busch against the Brewers

next week it should get very interesting….that is if we are only like 1-2 games behind the Brewers then. A split won’t be bad and won’t hurt either team unless the Brewers gain a few more games on us by then….BUT if either team sweeps that 2 game series… that should at least a HUGE mental impact of which team is going to go into September as the “favorite” for the Wild Card. I know it’s only 2 games but those 2 games are going to BIG.

by KYCards on Aug 18, 2008 4:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

isn’t that weird? it’s like the biggest 2 game series I can ever remember.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 4:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the good news is

We’ll have to face sheets, but unless Yost juggles things we shouldn’t have to face sabathia AND sheets.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 18, 2008 6:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wouldn't that suck

A two game series with the Brewers and you get CC AND Sheets. Yikes!

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 6:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Olympics

BTW did anyone see the story about Matt LaPorta being drilled in the head by a Chinese pitcher? 2nd US player to get injured, Nix is out for the rest of the Olympics I haven’t heard abotu LaPorta yet.

by StLHugo on Aug 18, 2008 4:45 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ouch

I heard there was some drama going on, but I didn’t know it was a pitch to the head!

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 4:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Article:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=1561

“Matt LaPorta was knocked out of today’s game when he took a fastball to the batting helmet. LaPorta was on the ground for a moment, although he did get up and walk back to the dugout under his own power. Team USA replaced him with Dexter Fowler, and with the game still going on, there’s no further word yet on LaPorta’s prognosis.”

by StLHugo on Aug 18, 2008 4:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Might help if baseball was acutally on tv

It’s been kinda difficult to follow the team when my USA channel says they’ll be showing the game on tape delay sometime between 4am and 4pm.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 5:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

don't rain on my parade

I was really starting to get a good lather up the past 4 or 5 days about the baseball “coverage” and you have to go and do this.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 5:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bob Costas just did a piece on Baseball and Softball being eliminated from Oympic games

First, I want to talk about the US/China baseball game. Apparently things got out of control. I believe most of it started when Matt LaPorta took out the Chinese catcher (a mariner prospect) who had to leave the game. Then another US player took out the backup catcher a little later, although I think he was able to stay in the game.

Anyway, I guess some bad blood started boiling over because China’s manager (Jim Lefebvre) got ejected over the second collision. After that, 6 batters were HBP (not sure how many on each side but I think they were all US batters) with Matt LaPorta being the last who got hit in the head. He’s listed as having a mild concussion and is day-to-day concerning the next game.

Then, trailing 9-0 in the 9th inning, some Chinese player hit a solo home run (now it’s 9-1) and celebrated the entire way around the bases and jumped onto home plate.

Whew….

Anyway, as the title of this post indicated, Costas talked about why the baseball and softball will no longer be Olympic sports and it has to do with the exact same thing……Star Power. Bottom line, baseball has none and softball has too many on the US team. In baseball, there are no players the casual fan wants to see (like basketball and soccer) yet in softball, the US team not only dominates, they demolish the competition. The US has won every gold since softball became an Olympic sport and has outscored it’s competition 53-1 (and the 1 run was an unearned run).

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 19, 2008 12:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Solo shot

their solo shot in the 9th was by that very same backup catcher that got bowled over. To me both of the hits at home looked like a runner making sure he could touch home plate, the first one with LaPorta was similar to the bad CDuncan throw to Yadi where Yadi had to spin around trying to make the tag. As the Chinese catcher spun around with his right arm fully extended LaPorta lowered his shoulder and ran right into the catcher’s arm, most of the impact into his shoulder I think. The second one the Catcher was blocking the plate and didn’t even have the ball when the American just plowed into him to get past, there really wasn’t any other way than to go straight through him.

by StLHugo on Aug 19, 2008 8:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Royals appear to be interested in Kip Wells

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/08/royals-interest.html

What do you think they’d offer for Todd Wellemeyer before his arm falls off sometime next year?

jk…

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 5:09 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Baron von Kippington?

Hmm…How about that.

BTW, I was just thinking that the Cards have gone this whole season without having a starter compete for worst starter in all of baseball. No replays of a certain sinkerballer whose name shall not be mentioned here, Kipper, or Reyes…How about that!

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 18, 2008 5:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wonder if Kip recovered Well from his blood clot

for some reason, this guy always gerenates some interest from teams, then he just doesn’t do anything.

it's time to bring the rock!!!!!!!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 18, 2008 5:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But they forget to notice that he doesn't have very good command or control.

He hasn’t his entire career. Having said that, if you get him to be the 9, 10, 11, or 12 guy out of the pen, he’ll probably do fine for you. He’s not without some skill……

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Aug 18, 2008 6:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's the problem

Great “stuff” but not a clue how to control it.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 6:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hey jills

off topic, but i was wondering if you had seen or followed anthony for cleveland, and if so your thoughts?

everything i have heard has been very positive for him, which unlike when some players leave, i am happy for him

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Aug 18, 2008 8:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I suppose that is the right equivalent of a lefty with a beating heart and a curveball

If you throw a nasty, running fastball with good velocity you’ll always have a job. Someone will always think you can straighten it out, no matter what the evidence to the contrary says…

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 18, 2008 6:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Go Astros!

Just tonight and the rest of their series with Milwaukee

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 18, 2008 8:11 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

FanShot question

I may try to post a FanShot and I am unsure of how it will look. Does a user have edit capabilities to delete their own uploads of FanShots?

I post enough typos so I don’t want to push something to the site that looks terrible and pushes something useful to the archives page.

by ubeddie on Aug 18, 2008 8:22 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I believe if you are the one who created it

you can delete and edit it. I’ve never done my own FanPost or FanShot, so I’m not positive. Obviously, a moderator can delete it (but I’m not sure anyone except Larry has that privelidge.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 10:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maddux

to the Dodgers

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 18, 2008 9:04 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's good to hear

I like that Maddux will get a shot with a contender. If anyone deserves it, it’d be him.

by jdub176 on Aug 18, 2008 9:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

is he one of their top 4 starters?

I know that was one of the concerns in Chicago. Even it the cubs acquired him (and even if he would have approved the trade) he would have been nothing but a 5th starter which means they wouldn’t need him as a starter in the playoffs.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 18, 2008 10:44 PM EDT to parent up