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Reasonable, But Right?

It happens all the time.  Reporters and beat writers print articles about a pitcher developing a new pitch or tweaking their mechanics, which in turn makes them a brand new pitcher, typically new and improved.  Back in mid-July, Geoff Baker of the Seattle Times wrote about Carlos Silva and his grip on his sinker:

It turns out, Silva made a between-starts mechanical adjustment. Pitching coach Mel Stottlemyre, an ex-sinkerballer himself, felt Silva was squeezing the ball too hard. So, instead of holding his hands up near his chest as he began his windup — which Silva felt caused his arms to press together and his fingers to grip the ball tighter — he held them at waist level tonight.

The writer's of USSMariner took that claim on to show that the reality of the situation wasn't matching the explanation.  That, in truth, there probably was no change from any purported mechanical change.  That Silva was sinmply experiencing better luck and getting better results.  You can read the full post here.

We've seen this happen with a Cardinals' pitcher as well.  A quick google search locates these spring training articles (I and II) that layout Pineiro's tipping pitches from last year among other foibles.  Now let me add the same caveat from the USSMariner piece -- I like Goold and Strauss; I think they are good reporters.  I also think that the players and coaches they are quoting are wrong as to the reasons for success or improvement and are trying to assign reasons to random events.

In the first piece, you'll find some gems:

"The key to him giving us more innings is pitching more aggressively," Duncan said. "I feel confident he will pitch more aggressively because he will use his fastball more. Last year we saw a guy who had gotten away from his fastball."

In 2005 & 2006, Pineiro threw his fastball 55% of the time.  In 2007, prior to joining the Cardinals he threw the fastball 55% of the time.  Hmmm. . . that seems the same to me.  Pineiro started throwing the fastball 57% of the time since joining the Cardinals but that's a difference of about 60 fastballs over the course of a season or 2 more fatballs a start.  Hardly a substantial increase at all.

Pineiro typically raised his glove higher during his delivery when throwing a breaking pitch while keeping it closer to his belt before a fastball. The solutions calls for Pineiro to initiate his delivery with a higher glove position.

So for all that pitch tipping that's now corrected, Pineiro has a FIP this year of 4.50 compared to a career FIP of 4.37.  He is what we thought he was

In the second piece, we find some more assignment to pitch tipping.  In this case, it's with regards to Wellemeyer.  As I've noted before, the real change is something measurable.  He's throwing more strikes this year and, as a result*, he's reduced his walk rate considerably.  His walk rate this season is half of what it was prior to joining the Cardinals.  As we approach 150 innings, there's a more plausible rationale that this is a statistically significant change rather than a mere blip (see Franklin's walk rate last year). 

Of course, Wellemeyer walked a few more batters last night (just to screw with me, I'm sure) and only threw 59% of his pitches for strikes but continued to be very difficult to hit allowing just 2 over 7.2 innings turning in a superb outing.  The Cardinals have discovered/stumbled into a pitcher who has seemingly made a significant improvement in his skillset and he'll be under team control for a few more seasons.  I was surprised by the improvement in May.  I'm surprised by it now but so long as he's throwing strikes he'll likely continue to be decent mid-rotation pitcher.  Let the players/coaches/scribes attribute it to whatever they want -- he's a good pitcher right now in a measurable way and that's enough for me.

*It should be noted that this could be correlation and not causation.  It seems the most likely answer but in an article about subscribing to false or unsubstantiated reasoning, I'd be remiss hypocritical in not noting that.

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I wish Ryan Franklin

would stop learning how to throw a vast variety of mediocre pitches and concentrate on throwing two really well.

Of course, I normally like a pitcher doing something really weird once a game like tossing an euphus or knuckler or dropping down side-arm just to keep batters on their toes, so this goes against my normal train of thought. Maybe I just don’t like Ryan Franklin.

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 15, 2008 8:51 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i think you have touched on something here today

next session we will dive into the whole MIF situation…that will be $100…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 15, 2008 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And no, your insurance won't cover it

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 15, 2008 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't hate Ryan Frankilin!

I hate myself!

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 15, 2008 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ryan franklin

is not your father. and neither is tony larussa.

by spencegrif on Aug 15, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no no no

his irrational distaste for ryan franklin derives merely from a chemical imbalance in his brain. luckily i’ve laced some kool-aid with a powerful ssri. here, drink up!

by mattybobo on Aug 15, 2008 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tom Cruise?

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 15, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bu..bu...but....I'm not in the closet.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kudzu

will become the next dominant lifeform

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 15, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

didn't he throw a splitter a lot more in 2007?

seemed like he goes fastball/slider more these days – and the sliders almost always hang!

With the splitter last year, I remember him getting ground balls like crazy….

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 15, 2008 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He only throws the splitter

when he wants to send a message to the worms behind home plate.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 15, 2008 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice comebacks

There was a nice tribute here yesterday to Braden Looper, and the same could be said this morning for Todd Wellemeyer.

Both of these guys were written off the last month by a lot of contributors here, and they’ve come back to prove their detractors wrong. As Cardinal fans, all of us are glad to see this and props to both these guys – and their pitching coach – for digging deep, working to improve and showing they can still help us get to the playoffs!

by ccthemovieman on Aug 15, 2008 9:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Which gives me faith that Lohse will get himself straightened out as well.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

Welleymeyer is almost as surprising (if not more so) than Ludwick this season. keep up the good work, Colonel!

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Considering the strike zone last night

Wellemeyer pitched a whale of a game…..

He was painting the outside corner to right handers all night and never got a called strike.

I bet that strike zone is why Franklin came in as oppose to IZZY.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 15, 2008 10:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I know

Wellemeyer is more of a strike out pitcher. He needs those corners. I’ve never seem him pitch a good game where he wasn’t get that outside corner. But he did yesterday. That was a great pitched game by Wellemeyer.

I love that freeze of him and Ramirez shrugging at the ump after ball 4 was called for strike 1.

by Evilfrog on Aug 15, 2008 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That sure was a "WTF" shrug....

The Florida batters helped him a bit…… like the batter who swung on the first pitch (fly ball to center) after Wellemeyer loaded the bases on a four pitch walk.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 15, 2008 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Either

(img src="URL"), replacing the parentheses for less-than greater-than brackets,

or the Sb Nation way:

! URL !, removing the spaces between the exclamation points.

by liam on Aug 15, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure it this is new or not...

but in the comment window at the bottom of the thread (not for reply comments) there is a “tab” of sorts called “Show Formatting Guide” which lists all of these things. Just noticed it yesterday, don’t know how long it’s been there but it seemed new to me.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Duncan Kool-Aid

One of the problems is the ongoing storyling that Duncan is a master of identifying things that mediocre pitchers are doing that are keeping them from being good pitchers. To be sure, he has tremendous success in his career, but is his renaissance average? It seems that for every Colonel there is a Pineiro and for every Looper there is a Wells. I don’t mean to cast aside his successes, but why doesn’t anyone ever pay attention to his failures? Every one was falling over themselves with what Duncan had done early in the year. Well, his Pineiro turnaround turned out to be a aberration and no one is writing that up.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 10:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

by "no one", I assume you mean the media?

Because azruavatar is not part of the Kool-Aid crowd.

Main stream media I agree keeps calling him a “guru”, but indeed there have been some failings…… but to focus on them exclusively means you have a axe to grind and not many readers want to read that.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 15, 2008 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plus, I think his success are much greater than any other pitching coach

You can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs…..

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And...

Duncan didn’t have anything to do with Pineiro’s contract….. other then to say if he would like Pineiro back….. but then he may have said no or they might not have asked him anything…. who knows?

I’ve seen a few camera shots into the dugout when Pineiro is pitching and Duncan looks like he is frustrated with Pineiro’s performance….. plus that last game he pitched (and pitched well), Pineiro gave credit to Molina…… which seem odd to me at the time because of Duncan’s “Game Plan” has been touted by other pitchers.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 15, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

TLR and Dunc have input on roster moves, as they absolutely should

This is most-recently evidenced by the meeting between Mo, TLR, and Dunc after Izzy’s last failed closing when they called up Perez and decided to shift Wainwright to the ’pen.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Duncan

Duncan looks frustrated 24/7/365

by llabyellov on Aug 15, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh

true dat

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's the point

He is probably about par for the pitching coach course in terms of success and failure yet is highly touted as one of the best for his many successes. When his staff has the horses, it is good. When it doesn’t, it isn’t. In 2006, the pitching staff collapse nearly cost us a postseason berth, but then the staff overperformed its seasonal performance in the playoffs and won us a World Series championship. And thank God they did.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plus

not all of his successes are his successes. A lot of Andy Benes resurgence at the end of his career was due to the splitter taught him by Chuck Finley. If only someone had taught Reyes to throw a splitter (oops, didn’t mean to open that can of worms!)… FWIW, Boggs would be a perfect candidate to learn one as well.

I am sure someone will jump in here and correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think Duncan really teaches new pitches. I guess that is part of the downside of a pitching coach who never pitched.

Disclaimer: this is not a slam of Duncan, I like him as a pitching coach and I think he deserves more credit for the Cardinals’ success over the years than TLR.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 15, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dunc

I always got the feeling that Duncan was all about suggesting, not so much teaching, new pitches to guys and trying to get them confident enough to use it. I guess the best example was Dave Stewart and his forkball. Supposedly, Duncan tried to get Reyes to try a cutter or a sinker before Reyes…wait, shit…don’t bring this up, no, don’t do it!!!

Anyway, I think you’re mostly right, that Duncan isn’t really the one teaching the pitches…

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 15, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not so sure its the pitching coach's duty to teach new pitches

That’s the bullpen coach’s job. The pitching coach, at the major league level, develops game plans and strategies for each hitter they are going to face. He spends time almost exclusively with the starters going over film in regards to their approach, their strategy and their mechanics.

Where being a catcher helps a pitching coach, he’s might be better able to look at a pitcher and see flaws in his mechanics. But, he’s not out there teaching new pitches.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I totally disagree

as nearly all bullpen coaches are catchers. Roger Craig, a former pitcher, was legendary for revitalizing pitchers’ careers by teaching them the splitter. Most of the new pitch teaching happens at the minor league level by pitching coaches or roving pitching instructors, virtually all of whom are former pitchers.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 15, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, your probably right

I was just thinking more along the lines of a major league pitching coach’s duties, and I don’t think teaching new pitches ranks all that high up there. Of course, vet pitchers learn new pitches too, but we often hear about this in spring training and then they probably keep tinkering with it in bullpen sessions throughout the season.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Player Development

With some of the AAA pitchers, doesn’t this raise a player development question? Why aren’t they coming up with a more developed repertoire?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe some get rushed?

or there’s an organization disconnect? I often found Dyar Miller’s comments to be slightly of a different mindset than Duncan’s. Then again, I’m sure there has to be a different mindset when talking to the media about minor leaguers (especially when you are their coach) and who really knows what goes on behind closed doors with Miller and the minor league pitchers.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think there is a tendency among highly successful prospects

and veterans as well, to resist change until/unless failure is encountered. There is also the whole mantra of don’t get beat with your second/third/fourth best pitch. That doesn’t mean everybody is resistant to trying something new, but many are. It could also be that guys with limited repertoires have few options because they have been unable to master additional pitches.

I thnk you have a good point about rushing pitchers through the system. That blame goes to the organization and the pitcher as both are so interested in immediate success that they don’t want to risk taking a step back in performance by experimenting with new pitches. Once the season starts the throwing opportunities are very limited and pitchers need to spend all their time polishing their existing pitches. My son was always envious of the position players because they could get so much more extra work in than it is practical for a pitcher to do.

Sometimes youth, high school, and even college coaches can limit a pitcher’s development because they are more dependent on immediate results. My son’s high school coach wanted him to throw a fastball on every pitch because 99% of the hitters couldn’t hit it. His college coach actually told him once not to throw his changeup because the catcher couln’t catch it (!!). Strange, but true.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 15, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's unfortunate

The head coach I had the pleasure to work with this past season (high school, if you didn’t know) was one of the smarter baseball men I’ve ever known. One of his philosophies was that if a kid was going to be a varsity pitcher, he didn’t do anything else. Now we did have a couple of exceptions, one being our centerfielder who had a full ride scholarship to a D III (i think? maybe NAIA….yup, just looked it up it was NAIA) school. He didn’t pitch a whole lot for us, but was always available. The other was our first baseman, who’s throws outside of pitching (which turned out to be more and more as the season progressed) was minimal.

Outside of that, every other pitcher was basically only a pitcher. It lessened the work on their arms and enabled them to go on an actual pitching program (i.e., a five day program that worked toward pitching every 5th day).

The other thing he tried to do was to teach every kid a change up. Honestly, a well-thrown change up is devastating. We had a kid who was a change up lead pitcher who would constantly keep hitters off balance because when he threw his 82 mph fastball, it seemed like 92. Then on the other end of the spectrum, our first baseman was the hardest thrower. He could get it up around 90 (primarily a fastball only pitcher), but would every once in a while throw that change and hitters would come unglued.

Btw, what kind of college catcher can’t catch a change up? He must have been a hell of a hitter, cause I’d bench his ass until he figured out how to catch it.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's lost on me how little leaguers aren't taught changeups

Aside from the fact that it’s way safer on the arm than curves/sliders, for someone (most everyone) with middling velocity it’s a more effective pitch. To me it’s an easier pitch to learn because you can actually play catch with it as much as you want without fear of arm damage. And hey 4 of the top 10 leaders in ERA this year feature a change as their primary off-speed pitch.

And if someone doesn’t just have middling velo, then by the time the draft comes 8 years down the road a changeup vaults a pitcher up draft boards for “pitchability”.

Lesson: teach changeups early.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Aug 15, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Braggin'

My ex-girlfriend’s son was telling me about how a friend’s older brother (14 year old) can throw a slider. So I taught him a circle-change grip, explained why it’s deceptive, and the basics of how the physics of slip-n-tumble work. He got the message that spin-induced breaking pitches are for later and that changing speed and location is the way to develop for now.

He had a good season this past year, but don’t know if he worked the change in or was all fastball.

by liam on Aug 15, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nevertheless

the change will make him a really good high school pitcher. he just needs to learn to throw it with the same arm motion/speed as his fastball.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My little brother had a phenomenal circle change

Then his high school coach, who was quite poor at his job, made him learn a slider and hardly every called the circle change (because he is one of those coaches who calls every pitch and then blames the pitcher in the newspaper if the pitcher gives up runs).

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

unfortunately

there are a ton of those coaches out there

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

there have been a lot of pitching coaches come and go over the years

so it is tough for me to agree that Duncan is average. To do what he did in Oakland with Dave Stewart, Bob Welch, etc. And then with the Cards to take some of the rotations that he has had and to have had all the success the Cards have had he has done something special. Whether he teaches new pitches or new philosophy or he tweaks their delivery he does something. There are too many examples of pitchers being better here than they have been elsewhere. There are not many pitching coaches who can take on other exiles and make them into proven, durable, quality pitchers. For that alone he is well above average.

And this line of argument that there are plenty who haven’t had suceess here, you are right. But to me that speaks less about the pitching coach and more about the pitcher. How many of those guys have gone on to succeed elsewhere? Not Wells, not Stephenson. Maybe those pitchers failed as opposed to the coach.

Not to say that Dunc is infallible, I certainly think there are things we can be critical of. Most importantly has been the development of young pitchers. His philosophy is so strong he seems to have an unwillingness to help the kids develop. It is one reason I am always suspect on hi being the coach as we develop our youngsters. Whether it is a lack of trust or being inflexible, something is missing in his development of young guys.

by CardFaninTTown on Aug 15, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And since when has Pineiro

been considered the same as Wells? Pineiro’s A LOT better than that.

by saladdays on Aug 15, 2008 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

MSM

Yes, I was referring to the MSM, not the blogosphere. Many people have been critical of Duncan’s magic touch, especially within the VEB community. I believe that a measured approach to Duncan’s abilities is necessary. He can’t turn lead into gold, or a career jobber into a No. 3 starter. I should have spelled this out better in my post. Az pointed to two P-D articles (by writers that I like) in which Duncan discovering how a pitcher tips his pitches was crucial to their renaissance, as well as Duncan citing some mystical fastball share as a reason why Pineiro is now a good pitcher again. All that I would like is for people to give a more measured appraisal of Duncan as pitching coach.

As for Wells versus Pineiro. “A LOT better” would not be my conclusion. This year, Pineiro has a FIP of 4.50. In 2007, Wells had a FIP of 4.86. Wells was not signed to a two-year deal worth $13M. Taken as a whole, I’d say the two are about equal. My problem is that it seems the organization bought Duncan as renaissance man wholeheartedly when they signed Pineiro after a handful of starts. It was silly because the peripherals in no way supported a sustainability in what Pineiro was doing.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure

that piniero’s “success” (if you can call it that) isn’t sustainable. Piniero has a FIP of 4.50, and a 4.82 ERA; if anything, his .321 BABIP-against should regress and his ERA should improve (though his HR rate should go up as well, which would negate some of that).

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 15, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Success" last season

I was referring to his 2007 with the Cardinals where he had a 3.96 ERA in 11 starts, which was the primary basis, IMO, for signing him to a 2-year/$13M deal.

As for his BABIP, in 2005 it was .321 and in 2006 it was .329. Will it regress? Or is he such a below average pitcher that his .321 BABIP is about right? For Cardinal Nation’s collective sanity, I hope that you are right and his BABIP goes down, but I don’t like the odds of that occurring. The scary thing, as you adeptly point out, is his HR rate. How unenthused are you for El Pineiro in 2009 at $7.5M?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, not very enthused

there are better ways to spend that money, but i didn’t think the contract was that bad when we signed it and still don’t, really, though it was maybe a few $M high. $7.5 looks bad for next year, but he gave us a discount this year, and keep in mind that he signed a 2Y contract when other GM’s were going BSI over guys like silva; we had to pay for that.

This year we’ve been .500 (10-10) in his starts. He’s probably been worth a couple of team wins over what we would have gotten from Boggs or Reyes, and gives us flexibility for next season and leverage in the off-season. Worst case we dump him for a prospect and eat half the contract.

Hopefully he’ll put together a string of good starts here and we can move him for a decent prospect in the offseason.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 15, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We can hope

And I will hope and pray that he gives us a string of good starts down the stretch. We’ll need ‘em if we are to catch the Brew Crew. If that would allow us to move him, all the better, but I doubt anyone would take him (just like 2007 when he was DFA’d).

His VORP this year is 9.8. I guess it depends on whether or not you think that is worth $5.5M, and it probably is. However, it’s not worth $7.5M, which is what we’re stuck with him at next year. Hence our being unenthused.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How many starts does he realistically have remaining?

They’ve got a bunch of off days coming up (7 in the next 5 weeks).

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very good point, Tackle Box

That number of days off seemed to be the motivation behind discussion of a four-man rotation. He probably doesn’t have more than a handful.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, now that I think about it

I’m not sure if Pineiro is our 4th or 5th starter……I guess it all depends on Carpenter and/or Wainwright. Cause as it stands right now, Brad Thompson is our 5th.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Way to burst my bubble

Hopefully Das WunderBrad has it going tonight. We need to keep on winning, especially with the Cubs in FLA (hopefully the Marlins’ bats wake up over the next few days) and the Brewers in L.A. We could pick up some ground this weekend.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have 100% confidence in WunderBrad.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And Arroyo

…with his 4.68 FIP and 5.44 ERA. Of course, his outfielders are lot less lumbersome these days.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and sorry to burst your bubble earlier...maybe this helps

8 straight games against the Reds, Pirates and Braves………

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i have all the faith in the world in Puppy Kicker

but if he doesn’t keep the ball down, it’s going to be a long night.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Aug 15, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if the sinker doesn't sink

the kicker will be kicked!

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 15, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

good one

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"was he worth it"

is a question that can be asked in a couple of ways. Was he worth it, in terms of efficient use of resources, or was he worth it in terms of having a spot that HAS to be filled, cost be damned?

When WJ let 4 starting pitchers walk at the same time after ‘06, coupled with the unfortunate failure of one young pitcher who will not be named and a terrible injury to our ace starter, we were in a terrible position after ’07. IMO it made some sense to overpay to fill a glaring hole like the one we had in our rotation, even if we knew he was going to regress a bit (which was pretty obvious). it probably wasn’t the right thing to do, but it’s at least defensible.

Given the situation we were in, with boggs garcia etc still not quite ready, “replacement level” for our organization was likely somewhat lower than what BP has it calibrated at, and Mo was in a terrible position from a leverage standpoint. The signing would look a lot better if lohse hadn’t fallen into our laps and if Welley hadn’t been so excellent, even if AW hadn’t gotten hurt. Imagine if we’d been forced to field a rotation of Looper, Welley, and three of {Boggs, Garcia, Thompson, Reyes, ponson, etc} since May? We’d be lucky to be 10 games under .500 and may have been forced to spend even more money/prospects along the line. Pineiro was basically “free” in terms of prospects.

Also, that value of VORP (9.8) takes into account hitting performance as well as pitching performance; in terms of his raw pitching, he’s been 17 runs above replacement, which is worth right about $5M using the standard “a win is worth $2.5M” rule of thumb. Also, if his actual performance had matched his FIP (and it would if the scorer had gotten it right in SF and KC) he’d be 4-5 runs better than that. Given that he’s missed 4 or 5 starts due to the DL, and it’s not that far-fetched to imagine that he’ll earn his $7.5M next year.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 15, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would be much more upset having Pineiro under contract for next year

if Boggs or Reyes or whoever would have pitched themselves into a starters role this year. As it stands, no one is a lock to make the rotation next year and there’s still question marks around Carpenter and Wellemeyer (and maybe Wainwright, but probably not).

Garcia is probably a lock for the rotation next year and that’s the only one I’m almost 100% certain of out of the farm. I guess a case could be made for McClellan, but I’d much rather have him in the bullpen.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This year, they weren't ready, to be sure

I don’t disagree with $5.5M for Pineiro for this season. I suppose that I disagree with him earning his $7.5M next season. I’d have preferred a lower base salary and more incentives for performance. It’s interesting that this signing seemed like a rush job, whereas most of Mo’s dealings are far more deliberate. In what appears to be his attempting to preempt an out-of-control market, he overpaid for Pineiro and underpaid for Lohse.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes on balance

I totally agree. It seems like we sometimes only selectively credit folks. So if success from Carp, Supp, Welly, Loop, etc… are all because of Dunc’s magic, then failures from Wells, Pontoon, AR, etc.. should also be ascribed to Dunc. In reality, we know that there are a lot more factors than the pitcher and the coach, including team defense and offense (i.e. run support/early lead), ballpark, leagues, that also affect pitching performance, albeit quantifiable to some extent with metrices. But I don’t know if there is ever a really good way of quantifying how much of the success or failure is due to Dunc.
So agreed. Give Dunc some of the credit, but he is also deserves some of the blame.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Aug 15, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The most insightful commentary

I’ve seen re Duncan points out that his best contribution isn’t so much in the area of spotting or fixing mechanical flaws, as much as it is in developing solid game plans for pitchers, i.e., getting them to think in more detail re pitch selection, situational pitching, etc. Guys like Lohse (or Weaver in 2006) have basically said that what Dunc did for them was to change their approach to a game plan. And as in any other job, there are guys who do a better job of sweating the details than other guys, and apparently Dunc is one of those.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 15, 2008 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

And it still fails on the pitcher to exicute the plan.

by Evilfrog on Aug 15, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely not the grammar spelling police

but “fails on the pitcher” made me laugh – or maybe you were just talking about Jason Marquis.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 15, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

falls fails

It’s all the same….

by Evilfrog on Aug 15, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

cool

I string of comments from a tiger, a black cat, and a frog. me likey

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Problem with that is he seem to have only one template for his plans

And he is generally unwilling to work with a pitchers skillset if they don’t fit his box of plans.

by DriverZn on Aug 15, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It suggests an interesting study, then.

Compare a guy like Duncan, with the game-planning, pitching to contact approach, and his successes, and then contrast him with other pitching coaches who take very different approaches (like coaches who work really well with power pitchers with high Ks, and their successes). Who are the best pitching coaches in each style you could identify?

P.S. I am utterly unqualified to do this, but it would be an interesting study.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 15, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

At one point I did pull the before / after stats for cards pitchers

Before duncan / after duncan.

It was very much a mixed bag. Good pitchers remaind good pitchers, poor pitchers remained poor. A few exceptions in the mix.

by DriverZn on Aug 15, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is one of my big problems with him.

He wants certain kind of pitches thrown to work with all that information in his binders. If you don’t throw those pitches, he has no need for you-he can’t even imagine a way to make use of you.

I screamed on this board forever about the unwanted one and I will go to my grave believing that Duncan focused on what he COULDN’T do, and never even noticed that there were some things he could do, never tried to make a plan, except throw a sinker. Which he never did (even now) throw very well. Reyes (oops, I named him) seemed to be caught between what the minor league coaches thought was a perfectly fine way to pitch, and a major league coach that found everything about him completely unacceptable.

That’s on the whole organization, though. They really should have handled him in a more professional manner. At least everyone in the Cleveland organization is thrilled to have him and happy to work with him. So far, so good……

Sorry, folks. Just had to get that out of my system. Have a good one…

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Aug 15, 2008 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I dont think not being able to turn around

Wells, Marquis, or Pineiro a failure. They are just as good for the most part as when he is brought in. It’s kinda silly to think he will be able to teach every old dog new tricks.

If you want to sight Reyes as a failure that is fine. Reyes was projected to be a top of the rotation guy and duncan seems to have made him worse. And that fact has not escaped the media.

by Evilfrog on Aug 15, 2008 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Defending Duncan

Duncan’s method, as I understand it, makes a ton of sense. He takes a pitcher who has decent stuff but doesn’t get results and puts them in front of a good defense, cuts their walk rate, and prepares them to locate strikes low and in opposing hitters’ cold zones.

That’s a sound strategy: walks have a 1.5X effect on FIP than strikeouts and ought to be the easiest of the 3TO for a pitcher to control; throwing strikes that a batter is least likely to hit out should get you weak contact and reduce a pitchers’ HR rate.

by liam on Aug 15, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't disagree

As I have said, he has had many successes and should be credited for those. And gameplanning is very important. Strategic thinking is very important. Not walking batters is very important. No matter what his approach, it has produced a mixed bag of results. It seems to me that he gets a free pass a lot of the time on those failures while gets write-ups in the USA Today lauding his turnaround powers. One of his faults seems to be a “my way or the highway” attitude. He is perhaps a little too inflexible with his strategizing.

Duncan’s seeming rigidity struck me when I read this piece on Greg Maddux in ESPN: The Magazine and this anecdote in particular:

One day last summer, Greg called reliever Heath Bell into the film room. The Padres were playing the Cardinals, and Maddux wanted Bell to see something he’d picked up from a St. Louis hitter.

“I can’t do it, but with your stuff, you can throw your fastball inside and handle this guy,” Maddux told him. Bell started to answer, "But the scouting report says … "

“I don’t care about the scouting report,” Maddux said. “I’m saying your fastball can get this guy out.”

After relaying the story, Bell says, “I listened. I got him out. Maddux knows best.”

To be sure, the Cardinals tend to gravitate toward a certain type of stuff. And that stuff is best tailored to Duncan’s approach, which is smart. Duncan has a system and the Cardinals seek out pitchers that are good fits for that system. However, sometimes a pitcher’s repertoire might allow him to work in ways that are contrary to a scouting report.

I’m not saying that Duncan should abandon his strict strategizing approach and I don’t know what goes on the strategy sessions. I don’t have time to analyze pitch location data to see how he leverages results out of certain pitchers. But, as we shift from dumpster diving to farm harvesting in our rotation filling philosophy, Duncan’s seemingly rigid approach may need to be tweaked for more flexibility as pitchers with different skill sets come up. That is, if he returns to St. Louis at season’s end.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My question is.....

How do we know he doesn’t do this? You are trying to compare Maddux telling one pitcher to “go against the book” on ONE hitter. With Duncan though, I think you are suggesting he let a couple of pitchers pitch THEIR way against an entire lineup. Not apples and oranges, plus I’m sure Duncan goes against the book from time to time.

Heck, I think they are doing it with Perez. Nearly all fastballs, and alot of them up in the zone. Thank ain’t Dunc.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 15, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am very relieved

that they are letting Perez pump the high fastball. That is the best place for a plus, plus fastball with movement. Low pitches don’t get groundballs, sinking pitches do. Low pitches, especially inside are easier for a guy with a longish swing to just drop the bat head on the ball and golf it out of the park. Go back and look at all the gophers we have served up to Ryan Howard – everyone of them was low in the zone.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 15, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and, of course, I am *starting*

to get comfortable with WunderBrad as the fifth starter. He strikes me as a control pitcher.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 15, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I admit that I don't

And I did so at the end of my comment, which is filled with qualifying words. It is speculation, but anecdotal evidence suggests that Duncan is that regimented.

I was merely using the Maddux anecdote of an example where a pitcher’s stuff sometimes—not all of the time—allows for that pitcher to go against the scouting report. What I am suggesting is that a cookie cutter approach is not the best, that you have tailor your approach to your pitcher’s strengths as well as hitter weakness. Duncan probably does do that, but there is a marked different in Perez pitch location now from when he came up earlier. It just makes one wonder.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We're also talking about gameplans developed by Darren Balsley

who, quite frankly, I’ve never heard of.

Who knows what kind of strategy he uses or what his gameplans look like……

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha! In layman's terms, we call that

“Throw it up there and let’s see how far he can hit it”.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Pads

They are sort of the anti-Rockies.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice.

Didn’t know that!

Thanks for the debunkification.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Aug 15, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm

learn something new every day. Btw, Jel Sert (maker of Flavor Aid as well as Fla-Vor-Ice) is right down the street from me…..

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Failures? Duncan has failures?

Well, ‘tis true we don’t hear of Duncan failing to turn a pitcher around….those guys are all labeled “head cases.” It kind of goes like this-if they are successful, Duncan gets the credit. If they fail, the pitcher gets the blame.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Aug 15, 2008 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What is an example in the Duncan era

Where a pitcher left the Cardinal Organization and was a better pitcher after leaving us? (I think Reyes is a possibility but to soon to tell)

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 15, 2008 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just looked

Interesting the list of pitchers that left the cardnials while still healthy is very, very short.

You can make an argument for Jose Jimenez, Dustin Hermanson, and Jason Marquis. Too early to tell with Reyes and I won’t blame Haren on Duncan.

Of course this remains the best example of a pitcher that Duncan tried to fix but nearly wrecked instead.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/rijojo01.shtml

by DriverZn on Aug 15, 2008 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beat my by a couple seconds

We’ve drudged up a few bad memories here, haven’t we?

by Merry CRasmus on Aug 15, 2008 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a painful exercise

While no star, Brett Tomko’s career worst season came with us. Esteban Yan’s worst was with us too. Dustin Hermanson to some extent. And there’s of course Danny Haren. None, other than Haren, became stars but they did move on to other places and perform better than they did here. Haren was just a kid, of course. I think he’d be just as good here as he has been elsewhere, but who knows.

The plusses outweigh the negative with Duncan, but I think there are some cases where the match is not the best. It does happen, on occasion.

by Merry CRasmus on Aug 15, 2008 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is that

most of Duncan’s advocates give him credit for the successes but subscribe the failures to the players themselves. Jason Marquis, Kip Wells and Anthony Reyes were all stubborn headcases who refused to respond to Duncan’s tutelage but the players who succeed under that tutelage are successful b/c of Duncan. In other words, Wellemeyer doesn’t get the credit for improving his strike rate. Duncan gets the credit for harnessing the talent in the pitcher.

The truth is that probably some of both is true for both the failures and the successes but you can’t honestly give Duncan the credit for the successes w/o blaming him for the failures as well.

by chuckb on Aug 15, 2008 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for debunking

Sometimes, as a fan, I just want to believe that some magic cure has indeed help to turn a player around. I shouldn’t blame the reporters as I tend to buy what they sell. So it’s great to come to VEB and get a reality check.

BTW, don’t be too hard on yourself on the difference btw correlation and causation. Causality is very difficult to establish as there are usually many factors that can’t be controlled for. I am usually very happy to see correlation data, and leave it at that.

On another note, what’s up with Grits bunting with the pitcher coming up and 2 outs? I can imagine people pulling their hair on the game threads. I mean if it was Loop coming up, then I could understand that. I guess I would be less upset if he bunted along the first base line to try to score the run. I don’t get it.

On post game on FSN, some folks tex’d and complained about pitcher batting eighth and costing us runs since Welly was up 3x’s with 2 outs and runners in scoring pos. But Iz2 on 9th was also responsible for runs. So I don’t even think last night was so one-sided against batting 8th.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Aug 15, 2008 11:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Pitcher batting 8th

I think this is a perfect example of people (the texters) taking a game or a couple of games and using them as examples instead of realizing this has been going on for 124 games + last year for a number of games. I doubt the texters text in every game it’s either not an issue or works out favorably.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately, there isn't a double split for ABs as pitcher and with RISP

But, the Cards’ pitchers lead the NL in pitchers’ RBI with 22.

RISP AB:

It seems like we’ve had about 66 AB from starting pitchers with RISP. In 2006, by comparison, it seems like we had about 74 AB with RISP. This is pure guesswork where I just looked at who started games for the season and then looked TLR’s penchant for PHing and using the ’pen. Again, a double split function on some website would be nice. You have the pitcher come up with RISP no matter what.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Spread out

He’s hitting very well with RISP. .357 in 14 ABs, but with 3 RBI to Lohse’s 4 RBI. The RBI are pretty dispersed.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But in the playoffs...

Just something I’ve been thinking about for awhile now, but Tony’s rationale for the pitcher batting eighth is that over a full season, Albert gains so many at-bats by hitting third, and with a position player ninth, has more opportunities to have men-on-base.

But in the playoffs, there isn’t time to draw those extra plate appearances or necessarily set up for a 9-1-2-3 “first four after the 1st.” So does Tony drop the pitcher back down if we make it in? By his defense, I think he may have to , since “in the long run” doesn’t mean caca in the playoffs.

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Aug 15, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But in the playoffs...

But after a full 162 of playing it that way, is Tony going to be too stubborn to switch it back and will the players feel somewhat off-their -game with the new old method.

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Aug 15, 2008 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It doesn't change the fact that he wants 3 guys hitting in front of Pujols

and by hitting Pujols 3rd he comes up in the first inning guaranteed which means theres a chance he gets an extra plate appearance later in the game.

So, to answer your question, no I don’t think he is going to switch back.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even with a non-pitcher batting #9

Our OBP for that slot is a mere .318. That’s pathetic and really epitomizes how bad the MIFers have been at the plate.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

.319 is much better than what Wellemeyer, Lohse and Pineiro have done

Looper’s about the only pitcher right now who can hit which is really strange for a St. Louis Cardinals staff. Plus, I’d rather have Izturis or Miles or Ryan or Lopez running the bases in front of our 1, 2, 3 hitters any day.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It is better than what our pitchers would do (and have done)

Our #8 hitters have an OBP of .243, which is bad, but would be good for pitchers. By comparison, seven NL teams have #8 OBP of better than .319. Imagine if we had a .340 or .350 OBP talent in the #9 hole, in front of Pujols. Ahhhh, one can dream…

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And now, watch as I fail to describe my stance on this...

I understand the interest of the possibility of three hitters (non-pitchers) in front of Albert while giving us the initial guaranteed first-inning appearance.

So by the assumption that your pitcher is the easiest out on your team, you concede that batting him eighth may end your inning on the 8-spot, leaving Albert with three people between the start of an inning and his at-bat. Again, don’t know the numbers, but I would think it’s a pretty close percentage between going 1-2-3 or getting someone on (and more importantly, in scoring position). So what it amounts to is that Pujols is almost as likely to lead off the inning-after-next as he is to be batting with one or more people in the inning following the pitchers 8-spot inning-ender.

It seems to me that, I’d rather have the pitcher make his out (and an innings final out) in the nine-spot, so Pujols would (a) be guaranteed to come up next inning, (b) with essentially the same chance of people being on base [one less hitter, though], and if not (b), then he’ll likely get on for our 4 and 5 guys.

Which brings me to our 4-5-6, which is actually pretty solid. In the last couple of years, that part wasn’t consistently effective, so the batting-the-pitcher eighth thing would have made more sense since more of the offense relied on putting guys on for Albert to bring home. But now, with them (be it Ludwick or Glaus or Ankiel or Molina) getting on at a fairly steady clip, it becomes more important to have a hitter hitting eighth, so there’s less chance of them being stranded. And if, the eighth place hitter (an actual one) does his job, you’re happy to accept a pitcher-batting-ninth inning-ender.

This is all theoretical, of course, since in any given game, any given situation changes the circumstances to the point where you’re almost arguing sixteen (random number used) different possibilities.

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Aug 15, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do like the "quirkiness factor" though

The fact that we can talk to other fans and say, “Yep, I’m a Cardinal fan. Yes, we are the ones who are spitting in the face of the long-held belief that pitchers should bat ninth.”

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Aug 15, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols ABs leading off an inning

2008: 67
2006: 85
2005: 108
2004: 106

I didn’t include 2007 because TLR implemented the pitcher batting eighth strategy mid-season.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well

That certainly torpedos one of my thoughts about the situation.

Thanks a lot! Jerkhead!

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Aug 15, 2008 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

HA!

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And now you've got me curious...

And yes, this’ll probably be left unanswered since the game thread will go up soon, but…

What are the lead-off-an-inning by spots-in-order breakdowns this season? L.O.A.N.S.I.O?

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Aug 15, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

numbers game

lets say the three people batting in front of Big Al (#s 9, 1, and 2) are each carrying a 0.350 OBP. That means each has a 0.65 likelihood of getting out. So the likelihood that they each fail to get on base is 0.65 × 0.65 × 0.65 = 0.27. so there is a 27% chance that no one gets on base, or a 73% chance that one of them get on base. I like those odds……

by cdb on Aug 15, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now we just need to find that 3rd .350 OBP guy

Because the .319 guys we’ve been trotting up there are pumping up the probability of no one getting on.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i suggested back in the yadi thread

a few weeks back that we try putting him down in the 9 spot. the obvious negative is that a quality hitter like yadi does not get as many at-bats as we may like and it will give him less opportunities to get that clutch hit that he has such a great knack for because less people will be on=base in front of him. But he does have the OBP that we may be looking for out of the double leadoff spot. Also it would greatly reduce the risk of Yadi GIDPing because the pitcher will rarely get on base in front of him and the two most likely to preceed the pitcher are the MIFs whose hitting talents have been at best been hit or miss (more like missing).

At least he's better than Esteban Yan.

by jacksonian on Aug 15, 2008 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

biggest problem with Yadi

is he’s a bit of a bases clogger.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Apparantly I've come to grips with my inner Dusty.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

point is

even if you trotted three 300 OBP fellows up before Pujols, there is still a 65% chance that one of them gets on…..

by cdb on Aug 15, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does Derrick Goold read VEB?

Because I think the stupidity of the Wainwright-to-the-pen stuff is finally seeping out.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 15, 2008 2:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

good!

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He does read VEB, as does Mo

So, be conscious of what you say because it may have an effect!

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

interesting...

on an unrelated note, i think we in the VEB community can all agree that the cardinals should hire me to a cushy front office position starting monday (crosses fingers).

by mattybobo on Aug 15, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i concur

you can have an office right across from mine facing Clark Street

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Aug 15, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have a feeling we're gonna need a lot of new offices

if only there were a large enough piece of land, with close proximity to the stadium, that isn’t currently being used for anything……………………..

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We could call it "VEB Aldea"

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Moz

should use all the consultants he can get!

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think i know just the spot

its on the north side of clark street, so it’ll have easy access for MO. it can even be considered water front property. i’m pretty sure there’s still a bass lake on the property. i think i know the owners & i’m pretty sure they could give the Cards a good discount.

yes, yes this is coming together nicely. now does any one know the Cards fax number so we can send them our resumes? it’s only a formality, we all qualify based on our VEB status. but they will still need one on file.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Aug 15, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

whether they do or not

I doubt they (especially Mo) digs through the threads on a daily basis although I can see him getting a lot of useful info out of the game threads (what should I call Ludwick today? Hmmm, maybe All-star-wick? Nah, maybe MVP-wick? Nah, oh he just struck out, I guess its Dud-wick), so most of what we say is pretty safe. It’s the main posters who have to watch it!! (like they care)

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be semi-serious about this

I would like to see the editors select one or two “Ideas of the Week,” from either the blog posts or the running commentary and try to figure out how to get it to Mo. Just a short paragraph once a week with a couple of the best thoughts from the community. They wouldn’t have to be the most clever, and certainly not the most unique or obscure, simply the ones that we think would help the team the most. They could be trade ideas, pitcher ideas, lineup ideas or whatever. I’m sure Tony would have no interest in hearing from us, but perhaps Mo and/or Luhnow would.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 15, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Inaugural VEB Thought of the Week

1) DFA Adam Kennedy.

In all seriousness though, that is an interesting idea. Would we just place it on the Fanpost sidebar as “To Mo: VEB Idea #_______”?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Idea #1 KEEP ADAM A STARTER

NO MATTER WHAT

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Aug 15, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would rather the editors do the selecting.

I don’t know how ideas would be nominated, etc. But there should be a screening system.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 15, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i like that

I think the washington post has a column that does it. Lately it’s mostly angry Russians though.

by spencegrif on Aug 15, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

DG on Wainwright's curve

There’s been a lot of speculation that Wainwright’s having trouble with the curve, thus he should be put into the bullpen where he doesn’t need all of his pitches to succeed.

DG responded to my blog comment, with an interesting counter-perspective:

Saw the curve in Memphis and it should be fine. He was able to locate it, and it reportedly had improved bite during his second appearance. While I understand the argument that a fastball/slider/cutter combition is plenty for a reliever, you also want your closer to have his best weapon because, unlike a starter, there’s no compensation, no setting hitters up, no grinding with what you got without trouble. Wainwright’s curve is a trump card in the ninth, maybe even more so than when he’s starting.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 15, 2008 2:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Have the block quotation boxes alway been grey?

or am I losing my mind?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 3:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

no

this one is a rarity of some sort

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So what time does this thing go down tonight?

someone give me a game preview. I’m mentally disabled right now from not sleeping.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 3:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

assume you mean the game time?

it’s a 6:10

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ah yes

unfortunately I won’t be able to watch it. going to be at the gallery thing

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was going to ask you about that

and was reminded of it when you said you hadn’t slept. Everything go well?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yep

pretty well. I will be outta here soon. I still have much left to do before 6pm. it’s fun setting up stuff, but it’s a lot of extra work. go cards

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just to give you an idea

track lighting, rulers and levels, wine and cheese, pbr for the hipsters, food and platters, hanging stuff on walls, pricing, lists, et al

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you an Artist?

If so what kind of medium do you use? I have set up a few Art shows in the past for charity groups that I work with. Funny you mention PBR. Are you sponsored by them at all? Cause I knew a guy that was sponsored by them.

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 15, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yep

I have a lil portfolio just beyond my little pic to the right there.
I do abstract/surreal paintings with a little cubism thrown in, as well as photography/experimental imaging. I am waiting on some giclee prints on canvas to be delivered to the gallery and I will be nearly done then. but I’m sure a 1000 minor details will arise in the next few hours to be finalized.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good stuff

I think I like your sketch book work the best. I do canvas painting but mostly stick to digital mediums which is my strong point. I prefer photography manipulation as the most enjoyable to work on for me. I am starting to dabble in HDR photographic work which just make stuff look amazing, imo. The stuff I actually get paid for though is photo shoots. I do a lot of car photo shoots with models that I somehow feel into. (Thank You Lord)

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 15, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really think you meant to say

“fell” into.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe

he feels into it too. you never know. Like on normal days, he’s abivilent, but when he gets the camera in his hands, and that mean machine right there in front of him, he’s suddenly into it like he wouldn’t have thought possible.

typos are hilarious.

by spencegrif on Aug 15, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks!

I really enjoy the photography manipulation greatly… I think it’s among my strongest work. I wish there was a good way to bring the sketchbook stuff to a larger format, but maybe I should just do some good scans and work it into the imaging/photo stuff.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2008 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh

I’m not sponsored… but I’ve seen that pbr does sponser a lot of cool events, etc. which doesn’t stop it from tasting like crap.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 15, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't dog the PBR

Or at least don’t dog it and simultaneously support InBud Light…

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Aug 15, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

edit: tell me you don't dog it and simultaneously support InBud Light

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Aug 15, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

who said I like bud light?

although i do drink my fair share of busch… I just find it to be the better tasting beer, and it doesn’t give me a headache like pbr does.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2008 3:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah the event they sponsered

We mixed in a charity event to make some money off of it.

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 15, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What exacly do/did the Mariners want?

Apparently, the Twins offered Boof Bonser for Washburn plus would have taken the entire salary but the Mariners declined because they wanted either Nick Blackburn or Kevin Slowey (and I assume the salary relief).

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 3:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Would they like to send us Boof Bonser for, say, Joel Pineiro?

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 15, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'll take Boof just for his name

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Aug 15, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd drive to St. Louis right now

to help Joel pack his bags if we got that offer.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Although looking at his recent stats

He seems to be falling apart. Maybe Dave could fix him? His numbers in the minors were pretty stellar (especially once he spent a little time at AAA).

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 15, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd still take him over Pineiro.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And the Mariners

once again, take the lead in the most poorly run organization in baseball, though the Astros are hot at their heels!

by chuckb on Aug 15, 2008 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

15-day?

Retroactive?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 15, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope so!!!

It would be retroactive to the 11th.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't Know

Bernie didn’t say….. but it would make sense.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 15, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes

link

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Aug 15, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then it's settled

Pineiro’s our number 4.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah. I know

i don’t get that one……..

Because now when they need another pitcher, it’s gonna be Mather that gets sent down. Although with all the days off coming up, they might just be able to go with the shorter bullpen.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 15, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That sucks.....

Hopefully it’s more precautionary than anything.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 15, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't mind if he didn't throw another pitch until February

But that’s just me being scared to death of him never pitching again

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 15, 2008 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How long

before he would have to get stretched out again before making another start?

If he can’t pitch by late-August, we should just shut his ass down for 09.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 15, 2008 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My guess at tonight's lineup.....

Skip
Ludwick
Pujols
Ankiel
Glaus
Molina
Kennedy
Thompson
Izturis

Might see Ludwick and Ankiel switch spots, depends on if TLR wants to alternate lefty/righty at the top.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 15, 2008 4:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

LaRue is in tonight's lineup

Going against his former team (per Bernie)

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 15, 2008 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can't say I understand that.....

Considering Molina just got a day off. Strange.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 15, 2008 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I talked to him last night.

They feel “wooden,” he said.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 15, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fatigue?

Doubtful.

He just had a day or two off, PLUS we have tons of off days coming up. If he really is fatigued, fine, I guess. I just doubt that is it.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 15, 2008 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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