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bravo for braden

Birdos_avatar_tiny by lboros on Comment 478 comments

time to give braden looper a little love. he had a very difficult month of may ---- 5 starts, 6.37 era, capped off by an 8-run pounding administered by the astros at busch III. that was his 11th start of the year, and it left his era at 5.05; opposing hitters were batting .304 against him on the season. we all looked forward to the day when chris carpenter, matt clement, maybe even mark mulder or anthony reyes would replace him in the rotation.

but in his 14 starts since june 1, looper has compiled a 3.35 era. that leads the staff. on the year as a whole he has allowed 3 runs or fewer in 17 of his 24 starts, or 71 percent; that’s second on the staff, behind lohse (73 percent). is this sustainable? i would tend to think not, although i can’t cite a specific reason why ---- looper’s BABIP is normal (.289, almost right at his career avg of .291), as are his batted-ball data; his strand rate (75 percent) is only a couple points higher than his career norm. it’s just hard for a vanilla pitch-to-contacter to remain ahead of the curve for very long. looper does avoid walks and keeps the ball on the ground, but he gives up too many hits (especially the extra-base kind) and doesn’t strike enough people out; sooner or later the balls start dropping in for hits. but whatever you think of him, looper has had a nice run of results stretching back almost three months; even if he regresses (as we should expect), the guy deserves some credit for keeping the cards’ season relevant. since wainwright and welley went down, he has gone at least 7 innings in 7 of 13 starts, which is the same ratio as kyle lohse; he pitched very well in both of his recent matchups against the cubs and brewers. he’s never going to pitch the cards to a championship, but he’s also not going to pitch them into the cellar. he’s a perfect fit for this year’s squad --- a hang-in-there pitcher for a hang-in-there team. he embodies all of the 2008 cardinals’ traits: ie, a broad base of competencies, a number of glaring limitations, and no real standout skill.

if that sounds like criticism, it’s not meant to be. braden looper, my hat’s off to ya.

hats off, too, to chris perez, who is clearly no fun to hit against. since his recall last week, he has faced 20 batters and given up 1 hit, a single. batters have swung and missed against him almost twice as often (14 times) as they have put the ball in play (8 times). overall this year, big-league opponents are batting .220 against him. last night he did it almost exclusively with his fastball --- threw it 27 times out of 33 pitches --- but two of the strikeouts (including the guy who reached base on the wp) came off the slider. he’s gonna walk some guys, but there is little doubt about who will be closing games the rest of the year ---- especially now that wainwright’s rehab regimen has been re-calibrated for a rotation role. that’s where it should have been all along, and that’s where it should stay --- regardless of what happens with carpenter. the suggestion is out there that wainwright might be shifted back yet again if (and it gets iffier by the day) carpenter proves able to pitch; i think it’s a mistake to treat important pitcher like wainwright as a utility piece. you might yank brad thompson around that way; you don’t do it to someone like wainwright. you figure out where wainwright helps you the most, and you fill the other pieces in around him.

a few quick items, and then i gotta wrap up the post and run off to a (zzzzzzz) breakfast meeting:

  • looper’s 2 hits last night raised his batting average to .298. that’s 3d in the league among pitchers (minimum 25 at-bats), behind zambrano and brandon backe.
  • in his olympic debut, brian barden went 3 for 4 w/ a double, rbi, and run in an 8-7 loss to south korea; last night (or yesterday; or tomorrow; whatever it is) he went 0 for 5 as the usa pounded the netherlands, 7-0.
  • jess todd made his triple A debut last night and did very well: 4 hits, 1 run in 6.2 innings. he struck out 6 and got 10 groundball outs; the run came on a solo homer in the 7th inning.
  • another intriguing pitcher, deryk hooker, debuted for quad cities and gave up a run on 5 hits in 5 innings. hooker impressed mightily last year in rookie ball and the instructional league; he got off to a slow start this spring, but in his last 33 innings at johnson city he gave up just 4 runs while striking out 44. he's big and lanky and only 19 years old; definitely a guy to keep your eye on. quad cities rallied for 5 in the 9th to win the game.
  • updates on a couple draftees with local ties: aaron crow took the luke hochevar route and signed with an independent-league team, the fort-worth cats; he’d been drafted by washington. and tim melville, who dropped all the way to the 4th round because nobody thought they’d be able to sign him, looks ready to ink a deal with the royals.
  • another nice outing by anthony reyes last night for cleveland --- 6 innings, 6 hits, 2 runs.

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Good Luck to:

Barden in the Olympics, I want to see him come back with a new piece of metal
Reyes for Cleveland, I hope he becomes a great MLB pitcher I like him regardless of teams but I am glad we don’t have to hear about him vs Dunc that often anymore
Looper in the Silver Slugger award, he may not have the “power” stats but he sure has handled the bat pretty well.

by StLHugo on Aug 14, 2008 8:33 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I watched that game....

U.S. vs. South Korea and it really seemed like Barden was always on base lol he played really well, too bad their closer blew the game in the 9th……………

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 14, 2008 10:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh

I misread this at first and thought it said Good Luck to: Braden in the Olympics

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 12:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Looper

I was totally going to post something about Looper today, but now I don’t have to put nearly as much time, effort, or thought in to it. (I know, great way to start your post, right?)

Anyway, Looper’s line in his last five starts is this:
5 games, 2-2 record, 33 Innings (6.6 per start), 28 hits, 6 walks (1.030 WHIP), 20 strikeouts, 2.18 ERA (9R, 8ER), 64% of his pitches have gone for strikes.

The thing I do not like is that 10 of the 28 hits have gone for extra bases. I do not know, percentage-wise, if that is normal. He has given up 5 homers, 4 doubles, and a triple in 5 games, though. I’m guessing that if a few of those were strung together that the ERA and innings per start would be much higher and lower, respectively.

Seeing all these statistics, like lboros above, I still do not have complete confidence that these performances can be sustained. For some reason, I just think (every time out) that Looper is a time bomb, ticking, ticking, ticking…waiting to go off.

Let’s all hope that Looper, much like Albert’s elbow, are time bombs that have LONG fuses that last much longer than their playing days. :)

by stlfan on Aug 14, 2008 8:45 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he's always going to have a bad game now and then

because he just doesn’t have the talent that some pitchers do. but the guy is a true competitor, and that is sometimes a hard thing to come by.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

TLR loves Young Pitcher now...and he DOES know his name
“That was a grinder,” manager Tony La Russa said. “Perez showed great composure. He didn’t faint. … Looper pitched well again, and this time he got rewarded.”
.......

“You’re looking how he acts,” La Russa said of grading his rookie reliever. “He came into a situation that is hard, veterans can get distracted and you let it get away. He didn’t get distracted. He didn’t get negative. Good signs.”

Does he now not like veterans and their tendency to get distracted? Huh?

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 14, 2008 8:45 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ah, crap

calling him “young pitcher” was pretty entertaining.

I’m excited about hooker.

(just wanted to see how that looks. Yep, awkward.)

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 14, 2008 8:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There's just too many marketing possibilities to fathom with that last name.

Unfortunately, none of them are family appropriate…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 9:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maybe resurrect William Shatner's

TJ Hooker character, heh.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 12:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How worried

should we be about having having a hooker on the same team as Jon Edwards? The guy doesn’t need any temptation in his life right now.

I’m not getting my hopes up but there has been a Josh Kinney sighting.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Aug 14, 2008 9:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Young Pitcher"

It was such a wonderful nickname. Hopefully, TLR resurrects it during a post-game interview. And, I’m sorry, but “He didn’t faint.” Has a reliever ever fainted during an appearance? I know Izzy and Franklin have been bad, but fainting? That is a strange choice of words.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 10:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Izzy may have needed

a fainting couch at one point… But no, I’ve never seen a reliever faint—only the fans watching him warm up to close.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 14, 2008 11:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love this

From the same P-D recap:

Two runners reached in the ninth, including one on a wild pitch after he struck out, but Perez coolly collected his three outs. Then, after his 33rd pitch got his fifth out, he tossed the game ball to a little girl wearing Cardinals gear.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 10:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A tough dude with a warm heart

It’s like Pride of the Yankees all over again. I think ditching the beard is what’s helped him, actually. Tough guys don’t need to hide behind facial hair.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 14, 2008 11:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A bit of a telling stat for Reyes

0 K’s last night. For a guy who is supposed to be a strike out pitcher when pitching “his way”, that is pretty ugly.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Aug 14, 2008 8:53 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also, 2 runs in 6 innings

I appreciate your point, but you have to admit the bottom line’s looking pretty good.

by mojowo11 on Aug 14, 2008 9:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How many swings-and-misses?

If he is getting swings-and-misses, the strikeouts will come.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 10:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

DIPS me baby one more time

Don’t know what the velo was last night but he was 85-91 his first time out. Good luck Anthony…

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Aug 14, 2008 12:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What strikes me as interesting about Looper

is that we’ve spent 2 years saying that “what he’s doing isn’t sustainable.”

Is he the Aaron Miles of the pitching staff?

by sdrone on Aug 14, 2008 8:58 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2 years?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but his performance from the first half last year wasn’t sustainable, he ended up with a 4.94 ERA on the season and got pummelled in a number of starts in August and September. He was horrible for an entire month this season (May) and has pitched well since. The reason most of us think this is unsustainable is that he’s not doing anything markably different than his career norms, but his ERA and WHIP are down. His FIP isn’t fabulous either, and it’s a much better statistic to measure pitcher’s effectiveness.

He’s been great the last 2 1/2 months, but at some point all those base hits (and XBH) are going to come in one inning and the opposition is going to put up some very crooked numbers.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 9:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Didn't he get hurt near the end of last year?

I think he had a little elbow discomfort…..might account for some of his August/September struggles. Plus the whole innings thing.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 10:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think last year was a case of Looper being hurt

He was just tired. It was his first full season as a starter. He’s got more stamina and can pace himself better now.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 14, 2008 11:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

An honest question

When you refer to his “career norms” how viable is that, considering the whole reliever-to-starter conversion?

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 10:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it's still viable

when you compare his year last year, when he had a 4.94 ERA and FIP above 5.00, with his year this year. Even though he’s moving into a starting role, his BABIP probably isn’t going to change since he’s still really just a 2 pitch pitcher like he was in the bullpen. He gave up a ton of XBH last year and that has continued this season.

My point was that if you compare everything he’s done this year to what he’s done in the bullpen and what he did last year, he’s really not a better pitcher, just one that seems to scatter hits rather than have them come all at one time.

That being said, he’s been pretty good this season since June, even if stats can’t explain why. I’m just not sure that he’s a guy who’s going to be able to sustain his last two months into the long term, because the rate stats aren’t in his favor.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 1:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wait a minute

I think there’s a TON of value in being able to “scatter hits rather than have them come all at one time.”

You give up 6 hits in a row and you probably exit the game after giving up 3-4 runs. You give up 6 hits over 7 innings and you very well might be unscored upon.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i agree

but i think the question is whether we’re seeing an actual ability to scatter hit or merely the accidental scattering of hits. is looper doing something effectively to cause this to happen, or is it merely happening and could reverse at any time?

by mattybobo on Aug 14, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Except that

Even when you “scatter” hits of the Extra Base variety, you tend to get scored upon. With an XBH in the inning (assuming it’s not the auto-scoring HR kind), you can often still score without any additional hits needed (such as advancing them on a ground out, scoring them on a sacrifice fly, or driving in an RBI with a previous BB already on base, etc.)

Setting aside the argument over whether “scattering” hits is a skill versus luck, with Looper’s tendency to give up XBH, I think his lower than usual ERA is more likely to be a phantasmal gift rather than an expected result.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Aug 14, 2008 5:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well

last year he was a below average pitcher. This year, he has run off a number of very good starts just to get back to being barely above league average. The real determinant will be in how he finishes the season.

As far as the Aaron Miles comparisons go, I think Looper is at a higher level. In spite of the fact that Miles is having his best season in terms of average, OBP, and SLG, he is 12th among NL second sackers in OBP and 15th in SLG. The .308 average ranks him 3rd, but for a guy like Miles who doesn’t really produce runs the key stat would have to be OBP – and his career best just isn’t very good. The only 2B in the division that isn’t better than him is Freddy Sanchez and he is playing hurt. I’ll take my hat off to Miles for having a good year, but the only way he looks like a good offensive player is if we compare him to the rest of the feckless MIs on the roster

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 14, 2008 9:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Aaron Miles

Aaron Miles is the Aaron Miles of the pitching staff.

by spencegrif on Aug 14, 2008 3:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just read this

and thought you guys might be interested, if you havn’t seen it already.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Major-League-Baseball-s-25-Most-Improbable-Succe?urn=mlb,100474

Jeff Passan put out a list of the 25 most improbable success stories this year and of those, Ankiel is only number 5 and Ryan Ludwick was left off. I might be bias, but I think this draft needs some editing.

Livan Hernandez is on the list – how is that considered a success story?

by cbsnyder on Aug 14, 2008 9:00 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so the comma in the url is messing up the link – i don’t spend enough time posting here to fix it so just copy it all and paste – or if someone wants to help out – i would appreciate it

by cbsnyder on Aug 14, 2008 9:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

After reading that I noticed one thing

Ludwick should be on that list, no questions about it. The absence of him is mind boggling since he has overcome more than some of the ones on that list

by StLHugo on Aug 14, 2008 9:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

the guy should be fired for leaving Ludwick off the list. talk about false reporting

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 12:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're being a bit misleading

It’s a list of guys who are in the majors improbably, not restricted to this year.

Obviously guys like Livan wouldn’t be on the list if it was just this year. And Ludwick isn’t all that improbable—he’s had injury problems, but he was a good prospect who was always considered to be destined for a major league roster.

by mojowo11 on Aug 14, 2008 9:17 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gabe Kapler

He probably should’ve made the list.

Dude was managing in the Sally League last year, came out of retirement to be a quality player for a contending team.

by liam on Aug 14, 2008 2:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That list is everywhere.

And could be 200 players long.

Lincecum is improbable because of size. Ponson made the list because he’s fat and like booze. Hunter was included because he grew up with a poor father in a bad neighborhood. Some made the list because of severe injuries or disorders. Other made the list because of long MiL servitude.

90% of MLBers are improbable for one reason or another.

by andujar on Aug 14, 2008 9:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lincecum

I thought this quote was precious:

Taught by his father to throw 98 mph…

I will now go beat the crap out of my dad for not teaching me the same thing…

/end sarcasm

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 9:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did you read the SI article about LIncecum?

It could be argued that his father, in teaching that whiplike motion, did indeed find a way to coax serious heat out of that small body.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You can't really teach velocity

His dad taught him his mechanics (which, so far, have prevented his tiny body from breaking down while throwing 95+), he didn’t teach him to throw hard.

by mojowo11 on Aug 14, 2008 11:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

his mechanics

are what make him throw hard. he is using his core muscles to whip his body around, and that “whip” action gives his arm the speed necessary to generate pitch speed. he does not use his arm muscles for power, only direction. He has stated that in his delivery, his arm is “just along for the ride.”

His dad taught him all of that.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

all that is true

but my brother had great mechanics, threw long toss to improve arm strength, and ran all the time to build strength up in his legs, and he still couldn’t sniff 90 mph. His mechanics may help his natural ability, but he’d still be throwing that hard because his body is naturally built to throw that hard.

If his dad could truly turn anyone’s kid into a 98 mph hurler, wouldn’t he be the most sought after coach in the history of the game?

As Crash Davis said: “The God’s reached down and touched his arm and turned it into a thunderbolt.”

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 1:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Granted

From what I gathered from the article, Lincecum is a tremendous athlete. However, his unconventional delivery, taught by his dad, taps into Tim’s ability in a way that a conventional delivery, taught by other coaches, never could.

So, I’d say his dad deserves some credit.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Some credit

but the way it was worded sounded like he taught his son to throw that hard, when what he really did was enable him to throw that hard without taxing his arm and getting injured.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 1:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well

It looks like what you are saying is that Lincecum could throw just as hard with a different delivery, and that what his father did by teaching him that unique windup was just make it so he could avoid injury.

If that’s what you’re saying I have to disagree. I think that unique windup, which only Lincecum can pull off, is the source of his velocity, as well as his durability. His dad created that windup to take advantage of Tim’s special athleticism. Therefore his dad gets credit for maximizing Tim’s abliity, as all good coaches should.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 2:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wasn't what I was saying at all.

His dad didn’t “coach” him to throw 98 mph. He’s been given athletic gifts that enable him to throw harder than the average person. His dad coached him to use his gifts in such a way that it maximizes his velocity and prevents him from getting hurt by his small frame. His delivery does help him throw as hard as he does, but don’t try to sell me that he wouldn’t still throw in the upper 80’s/low 90’s with a different delivery. I think we can both agree that coaching is not the unique and only reason that he’s in the big leagues.

He wasn’t an average pitcher who was “coached” to be able to throw that hard. He’s a kid with special talents who was coached on how to use them most effectively. The article makes it sound like his dad worked a miracle and turned an average pitcher into a dominant major league one — which is an exaggeration of what actually happened.

I disagree that he’s the only one that can pull that delivery off. My guess is that there are other pitchers able to pull off his delivery, but only one with enough natural talent to be able to make the major leagues doing it.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 2:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maddux and koufax

have (or had) similar deliveries.

by jeff_abs on Aug 14, 2008 2:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually

according to the article, Koufax and Gibson are the models the windup is based on. Hopefully whatever caused Koufax’s arm troubles was left out!

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 4:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Um, OK

I say “His dad created that windup to take advantage of Tim’s special athleticism. Therefore his dad gets credit for maximizing Tim’s abliity”

You say “His dad coached him to use his gifts in such a way that it maximizes his velocity and prevents him from getting hurt by his small frame.”

Seems like we agree on the basics there.

Again, I was only responding to the statement about “his dad taught him to throw 98.” I never argued that he was some average guy who was transformed into a flamethrower. All I’ve been saying is that it was his dad’s delivery that coaxed that extra jump out of his fastball.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 4:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bottom line

When you see a talent that unique, there are probably a few people that played a hand in it. We can argue how much credit people deserve, but the point is that he is an awesome talent and we should appreciate that we get to see it.

Maybe I overstate it, but there is nobody in baseball I like watching more than Lincecum.

by Merry CRasmus on Aug 14, 2008 5:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly

how do you teach someone to throw 98 mph? Did Yao Ming’s dad teach him to be 7’ 7"?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

supposedly

his velocity is largely a product of great hip-shoulder separation.

by jeff_abs on Aug 14, 2008 11:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not buying it.

You can’t trick an arm into 98 mph. If it can’t do it naturally, you’re flirting with disaster. Now, I’m not saying his mechanics don’t improve his velo. I’m sure they do, but it’s not like he’d be throwing 90 mph without ’em.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

obviously

there are other factors at play. but with that superior separation he is able to generate more torque with his abs/lower back/upper legs, which not only create more power than the arm and shoulder, but take stress off of the fragile joints commonly destroyed by the pitching motion.

but I agree that there is more going on in a 98mph pitch than just the hips/shoulders.

by jeff_abs on Aug 14, 2008 11:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah

and I’ll never fool anyone as a pitching expert. But what I do know is, there are people on this planet who can throw a baseball over 90 mph, and there are people who can’t. Just like golf. Some guys are blessed with the ability to hit it 300 yards and others, no matter how big or strong, can’t do it.

Lincecum is blessed with an unbelievable amount of natural ability. Of that, I’m am positive. And something he does, enhances that ability (probably the hip stuff you cite). He’s kinda like a perfect storm right now.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:19 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fast-twitch muscle fibers.

Nolan Ryan had a higher percentage than most athletes, and I’ll be Lincecum does too.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 14, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is a really bad analogy.

Without his mechanics, there is no chance that Lincecum throws 98 mph. Short of stacking bricks on his head, Yao Ming was always going to be 7’ 7".

I also think this argument is a little silly. The kid clearly has natural athletic ability. The limberness of his muscles, tendons, and ligaments; as well as his natural ability to control those cannot be “taught.” For some, the best mechanics in the world would not make them able to throw over 70 mph.

That said, without crafting his mechanics, Lincecum may only throw in the high 80s to low 90s. Mechanics affect the drag on the arm, the grip on the ball, and specifically the efficiency of the body motion. The wrong mechanics will cause a decrease in velocity. This doesn’t mean that old man Lincecum could teach me to throw 98 mph. I don’t have it in me. It may mean that he was able to maximize his kid’s talent.

by etp_stl on Aug 14, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, I never meant for it to be a good analogy

It was more of a joke than anything. But i don’t think his mechanics add 8-10 mph to his fastball. That we’re going to have to disagree about.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 1:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Ponson made the list because he’s fat and like booze."

I’m fat and I like booze. Sign me up for a $20 million contract, Yankees!

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 14, 2008 12:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You should go talk to his dad...

by next spring you’ll be throwing 95 mph…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 1:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

same here - and I'd take the $1M contract the cardinals gave him

I don’t like to run, either, so they can fire me after a month or two if they want (and still pay me)

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 14, 2008 12:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lawless

So I can’t find an internet link to his latest blog post (NBC only has an older one up right now) but Rene Knott read one of Tom Lawless’s blog posts on the air last night, it seems he never got credentials (and he questioned how China couldn’t get him any) so he has been forced out of being the on field manager into being the advanced scout for the team. He gets to go to all the games and report back to China on what to do.

by StLHugo on Aug 14, 2008 9:03 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not only is Perez a bit hard to hit...

Larue was having a time catching him. At least that was Rooney’s opinion in the radio broadcast last night. It’s nice to finally have somebody on the team with dominating stuff!! YIPPEE!!!

by cardzfanbub on Aug 14, 2008 9:09 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah...Marlins announcers on Extra Innings

Were pretty much saying the same thing. It was kind of amusing. They are really pimping the Cardinals hard this series.

by stlfan on Aug 14, 2008 9:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They saw mostly Cardinal fans in the Stadium

So they assumed they were announcing for the Cards

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 14, 2008 11:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Perez

His fastball has some sickening movement on it. If he can use his slider as a bit of a change of pace that can change the hitter’s eye level, it’s going to be really tough to get good wood on the ball against him. LaRue was having trouble gloving the ball because it was moving all over the place.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 9:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was so exciting to listen to

A St. Louis reliever throwing stuff so nasty that Larue was having problems catching it. As for Larue’s problems, I’ve consistently heard broadcasters complain about how bad the lights are at Joe Robbie Stadium (or whatever it’s called now).

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 10:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Perhaps

A young Brad Lidge? great fastball but his slider isnt anywhere as good as Lidge`s hopefully he can get it better.

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 14, 2008 10:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You'll see him evolve

His slider will develop, and probably a third pitch. I’d rather have Perez’s slider than Motte’s any day. Hopefully the Cards can bring in a former Redbird to work with both of them on developing the slider.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 10:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He really reminds me of Lidge

The great fastball and that slider he can bounce in the dirt and guys swing at it…I love it….

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 14, 2008 10:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i hope he's not like lidge

i don’t want albert, or someone else, to send a ball into orbit and destroy Perez’s psyche for a couple of years. :-p

by sbentley on Aug 14, 2008 10:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dangit!

I was just about to say that exact same thing!

Although Jenks has more pitches, that’s exactly what I saw last night too. IMO, his fastball didn’t look like that in his first call up. It was straight and I don’t remember it being consistantly above 94-95 mph. And he slider has never looked as good while with the big club. Very encouraging.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly.

Perez’s out pitch is the fastball. He throws a plus-plus fastball and a plus(?)-slider. Lidge throws a fastball and plus-plus-slider as his out-pitch. (Is there a three-plusses grade?)

If we had Bobby Jenks, we would be pretty good. Maybe we will be.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 14, 2008 11:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Third pitch

his curveball looked better than his slider in ST. He’ll probably use it against lefties once he settles in as closer. It’s a good pitch, though.

by liam on Aug 14, 2008 2:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t know…

I’d say when his slider is under command it’s pretty damn close to being on par with Lidge, we just don’t see it as much, but I’d hazzard to guess on a pitch f/x point of view it’s got some numbershis/catcher/teams faith in it isn’t 100% as of yet.

Luckily the better part of Perez is the fact that with Lidge if you can pick up the slider you can leave it alone and force him into a fastball. You can’t do that with Perez, hell when you account for total movement in inches, I wouldn’t doubt if his fastball gets as much movement as a lot of sliders out there. When that thing decides to move, does it ever.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 14, 2008 10:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Slider

I’ve seen him pitch in AAA a few times and I agree wholeheartedly with you AdEx. His slider is flat-out sick when he’s got it going. Consistency is the problem. Granted, he can have problems finding the plate with any pitch, but it is worse with his slider than with his fastball. If he can harness it so that he can place it with regularity, he will be absolutely filthy. (Caveat: This is based on my personal impressions and no data.)

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 10:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Doesnt throw it enough

Maybe he doesn’t throw it enough during the game so has a problem with controlling it?

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 14, 2008 12:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's not as good as Lidge's, even when it's on.

Lidge’s slider has nearly 12-6 movement when it’s on. The thing drops nearly straight down and is near impossible to pick up when he’s throwing well. It’s the best slider I’ve ever seen. For reference, go back and look at some of the pitches he made to Mather and Stavinoha a couple of weeks back. Sick downward movement — you can’t even foul the thing off.

Perez has much better movement on his fastball than Lidge does, and there’s more of a difference in speed, but it moves more side to side, similar to the great slider that Rod Beck had in his heyday. It moves enough vertically to allow him to change hitters’ eye levels, and it’s difference in speed allows his fastball to sneak by hitters.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 1:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know where the ball goes

but the sound definitely goes away.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 1:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

does this look right?

where lidges slider ends up

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Aug 14, 2008 4:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where's the choo choo train?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 5:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I figured the Rocket would suffice.

Nasa is pretty big down here.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Aug 14, 2008 5:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hence the name "Astros"

and Rockets and Aeros………

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 5:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right

I shouldve included “/end sarcasm”. Sorry.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Aug 14, 2008 5:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh I got it

I was just going along.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 6:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where's the ferris wheel?

Paging Dr. Fritz….

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 14, 2008 6:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 14, 2008 6:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmmm...

apparently sbnation does not care for my photobucket account. Anyhoo.

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 14, 2008 6:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

fail

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 6:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is that an actual photo?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 6:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

those pictures were the reason I love that blog fritz

Who here didn’t love Juan, the Time Traveler?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Aug 14, 2008 6:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just noticed the "we suck balls" part

A nice touch

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 14, 2008 6:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no photos

But when he struggles he throws it in the dirt all the time and sometimes he bounces 58 footers up there. It also doesn’t look as much like the fastball when it comes out of his hand, so hitters can lay off of it and look for the fastball, like Albert did when he crushed a ball over the choo-choo in the 2005 playoffs. When it’s on, he can throw it up in the zone and get hitters to commit to swinging until it drops 6 inches and they swing over top. It’s simply a devastating pitch.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 1:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe I'm wrong, but ...

I’m pretty sure the pitch that Albert deposited was a slider that didn’t. Am I wrong?

by etp_stl on Aug 14, 2008 1:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

twas, if memory serves me well

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 14, 2008 1:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 14, 2008 1:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where can I buy that photo?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 2:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is a slider suppose to have..

that much vertical movement? I thought it was suppose to be more of a horizontal break…makes it sound more like a slurve/splitter of some sort to me. Not that I know anything at all. I assume his grip and arm action all say slider, but movement says what the hell???

by cardzfanbub on Aug 14, 2008 1:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

generally...

sliders do move side to side, but good ones (like Dan Haren’s and Big Unit’s) will also change planes, allowing them to change the eye level of the hitter and then blow a fastball by him in the same location.

I’ve always thought Lidge’s slider had great similarity to a split fingered fastball in it’s movement. Perez’s is much more like Haren’s or Rod Beck’s. It’s a great pitch, but just great in a different way that Lidge’s.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 1:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes......

I remeber watching Lidge’s slider when it was really on and I could not figure out how guys could even hit it.

The thing just appeard to stop, drop, and move a way a tad… Just flat out unhittable.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 14, 2008 1:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not disagreeing that Lidge has a filthy slider, but...

Mather and Stavinoha are probably not the best examples, albeit they are fairly recent. I thought Mather and Stavinoha were overly aggressive and did not adjust and lay off the pitch. But I get your point that the sliders had serious breaks.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Aug 14, 2008 2:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right

the point was to look at the pitches, not how the players reacted to them. Although you have to admit that he made Mather look silly, and he hasn’t looked like that against anyone else this season.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 2:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A week or so back

I commented that Perez would have to improve his slider because although he threw hard, he didn’t have much movement on his fastball…boy was I wrong, that thing is moving all over the place now..wicked. I believe somebody taught him something recently.

by ridgesee on Aug 14, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think he was nervous the first time around and was overthrowing.

He didn’t just learn that fastball in a month.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

in bowling, you can whip the ball down there as fast as possible, but if you take just a fraction off of that and let the roll (or pitch) breathe, you will find you get more movement on the ball.
/bowling to pitching comparison

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 1:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Looper

Has done a helluva job this year.

by Evilfrog on Aug 14, 2008 9:46 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

For a guy pitching over his pay grade, he has been outstanding for us. When this whole Looper to starter thing started, I would have never believed that he would still be in the rotation and pitching well.

That said, I also agree with the earlier comment that he is a ticking time bomb and that this can’t go on forever. I know a lot of good MLB pitchers get by with less than stellar stuff, but I just don’t think Looper has the capacity to continue to miss the big innings for several more seasons.

by Egyptian on Aug 14, 2008 10:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Unrelated...

I see “pay grade” and I kept reading it as ‘gay parade’.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

by paposse on Aug 14, 2008 10:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

lol

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 14, 2008 10:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah

I guess if you’re gay you love a parade.

by ridgesee on Aug 14, 2008 10:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and why wouldn't you?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:19 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh

parades are gay

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 1:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I didn't

but now I do……….thanks.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

on the Seinfeld reference!!

by cardzfanbub on Aug 14, 2008 12:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I saw that exact thing too

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 14, 2008 12:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So anybody for ponying up

and resigning Braden? Or do we have adequate replacements (Boggs, Todd)? Or do we make a legit attempt to sign FA?

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Aug 14, 2008 10:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2-year/$13M

I think that Looper is probably replaceable from within the system, if TLR and Dunc are willing to pencil in a youngster. That said, Looper is a Dave Duncan Special and we did sign the last one of those based on eight starts worth of Duncan magic and we’ve seen how that has turned out for the franchise. I’d certainly rather have Looper than El Pineiro on the staff, but Pineiro and Looper are awfully similar in their replaceable nature and we don’t really need two of them.

Disclosure:

I have made it to four games this year and Looper pitched in two, which enraged me. May 16th versus Tampa Bay, which we lost 3-1, but Looper threw 117 pitches in 6 IP and surrendered 10 hits. It was one of those 2-run games that feels like a 10-run game. It was so frustrating to watch. Bleeder after bleeder found its way through the infield. The game probably should’ve been 5-1 or 6-1.

Somehow the Fates frowned upon me for my second Friday night game of the year, because on July 18 Looper again started, this game squaring off against future Hall-of-Famer Greg Maddux. Looper lasted all of three innings, surrendering 6 runs off of 8 hits with two of those being homers. I went to get some Viva El Birdos nachos in between the bottom of the third and the top of the fourth, leaving a 3-3 game. When I returned, Looper was gone and the score was 6-3. Luckily, we promptly chased Maddux and put up on offensive onslaught that was just too much for the lowly Padres to endure.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 10:22 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Resign Looper?

I really believe the Cards should save a starters slot for Garcia next season. And we have three starters already under contract. That leaves only one slot open. Do you want Looper or Wellemeyer? I think Wellemeyer is still in arbitration years (not F/A) so he should be significantly cheaper than Looper.

Carp
Wainwright
Pineiro
J. Garcia
————————————-
Looper or Wellemeyer

by jjray on Aug 14, 2008 11:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pineiro cannot be...

handed one of the five spots, especially with three guys coming off injuries, one perhaps not quite ripe.

by guayzimi on Aug 14, 2008 11:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pineiro's contract

That awful contract JMo handed to him pretty guarantees Pineiro has a rotation spot for 2009. He’s owed $7.5 mill.

by jjray on Aug 14, 2008 11:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Even eating $2.5M may not be enough

Would you pay $5M for Piñata?

He’s much closer to replacement level than league average, which means his contract should be much closer to league minimum than $5,000,000, I would think.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Aug 14, 2008 5:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dont forget Mcclellan

He might get a shot at the rotation next year.

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 14, 2008 11:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the only game I've seen this year was in May

and of course Looper was pitching. ugh.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 1:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Adequate replacements

People love to tout our minor league arms as being capable of coming up next year and taking the place of Lohse or Looper. While that very well may be the case, just look at how the Yankees fared this year by relying on their young arms. This is not a call to trade people away or anything, just a reminder that counting on prospects to come up and do even an “adequate” job tends to be more of a gamble than people around here seem to think.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 10:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agree

The only guy I have any faith in for opening day 2009 right now is Jamie Garcia.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:23 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Filling in holes with the harvest

You mean, the Yankee team that has a starters’ ERA .21 points worse than ours in a league with the DH? Another useful comparison might be the A’s, whose reliance on young arms has only given them the second best starting rotation ERA in all of baseball. Or, Tampa, who is also in the top 10.

The question becomes whether or not the Cardinals can replace Looper’s production with a player from the farm system, which would likely free up anywhere between $4M and $6M worth of salary to fill in other holes in the roster. Pineiro is making $5.5M this season and will make $7.5M next season. Would you rather pay Pineiro multiple millions for his 4.82 ERA, 9.8 VORP, 4.50 FIP or hundreds of thousands to a rookie for the same thing? It’s a very similar situation with Looper, even though he has been a step above Pineiro, to be sure.

Paying marginal players multiple millions of dollars that can be replaced from within the system for pennies on the veteran dollar allows for the team to invest in impact players that are not replaceable from within the system. Rather than paying $5M for scraps off of the heap that don’t pan out, $7.5M (or more) on below average and replaceable starting pitching, we could invest in a true difference maker at a position of need that cannot be filled from within the system. It’s sound management to do so.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 11:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yankees

When you compare the Yankee’s ERA to the Cardinals, please realize that two of the people most repsonsible for that ERA are two old, expensive guys named Pettitte and Mussina. The other two, Wang and Chamberlain, are admittedly young, but sort of fragile.

I get the whole “replacing a marginal veteran with adequate cheap youngster” thing. It’s been beaten to death around here. Honestly, we should just have some sort of certificate that people put on their signature saying “I get that concept.”

My point is this: New York opened the season with a rotation of Mussina, Pettitite, Wang, Kennedy, and Hughes.

Kennedy and Hughes have done next to nothing for them in 2008. They might be awesome in 2009 and beyond, but the Yanks have had to plug in people like Sidney Ponson and Darrell Rasner to make up the innings they were counting on those kids giving them.

Sure, a Looper or a Lohse could sign a large contract and flop just as bad as Kennedy and Hughes, but you’re paying the $$$ for the security that they have shown you that they can get the job done in the past. (Again, this is such a basic concept that it should go in there with the one you set forth.)

I guess I’m just saying that I totally agree with the concept of having cheaper players do the “average” things for your team, while paying big bucks for stars, but I just take issue with the fact that some arguments lay it out like just any minor leaguer can come up and do even a passable, or barely passable, job at the big league level. It’s just not that easy. Ask Jimmy Journell, Chad Hutchinson, Blake Hawksworth, and all the other prospects that never made it.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 12:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Of course, **any** minor leaguer wouldn't be able to

As for the Yankees’ ERA, that was kind of a part of my point., which was horribly laid out. The Yanks went into the season relying on youngsters. Injuries and unpassable performance required replacements, which were gathered off of the scrap heap and have done as good of a job as the veterans we signed because of their security (plus a scrap from last year’s heap in Wellemeyer). They have also maintained flexibility to add or subtract from their rotation in the future (which really isn’t as important to NY as it is to us). Right now, we are locked in with Pineiro for next year at $7.5M because we paid for his security, or something like it, when a rookie or scrap from the heap likely could have done at least as good of a job as he has done this year. I fear that signing a proven veteran, while perhaps more palatable for next year’s rotation, could give us an albatross by the end of the contract, which would cripple our ability pursue difference makers via free agency.

Naturally, I don’t believe that any minor league hurler can just step in and put up 4.75 ERA. This is doubly true with the TLR/Dunc regime. (I don’t mean this as an insult, merely as descriptive.) My argument is that, between the prospects we have in our system, one of them (or a combination of them) ought to be able to fill the spot at a minimal cost. It certainly is not at all an easy job and no one here is saying that any minor leaguer could come up and do the job at Looper’s level. The belief that someone from the farm can step in and give us satisfactory performance levels in the rotation is only plausible with the pitching prospects the Cardinals have climbing the ladder. That is another obvious context that goes without saying. Their EqERA’s lead one to believe that they ought to be able to step in and do a passable job, which is at a far cheaper rate. To be sure, many are rough around the edges, but I’d be for a competition between them and a scrap over a 3- or 4-year contract to an average pitcher.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 1:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It all boils down to

actual names, doesn’t it? Just as “any” minor leaguer is vague, so is “proven veteran.”

You say that the “belief that someone from the farm can step in and give us satisfactory performance levels in the rotation is only plausible with the pitching prospects the Cardinals have climbing the ladder.” Absolutely correct. All I’m saying is that the Yankees relied on their guys, who had even better projections than anyone the Cardinals have right now (see Tackle Box’s post below, which sort of makes my point), and they were let down in a big way.

The downside of being let down by prospects if that if they fail, you have to scrap around. If a veteran fails, you have those prospects to fall back on before you have to resort to scrap. It’s like another layer. Of course, you pay for tihs layer, and therein lies the obvious rub.

All this discussion makes one think that the old way of doing it, which is still around, makes sense. Put a guy in the pen for a year or two and see what he can do, then turn him into a starter. Then you sort of get the best of both sides – track record and cheapness. Kyle McClellan, I’m looking at you.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 2:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree wholeheartedly

’Pen-to-rotation is the way to go. McClellan and Garcia both come to mind, as does Haren and Wainwright. Whether it is for a half-year or whole year. The other nice thing about that is this allows the rookie to earn his stripes in the eyes of Duncan and TLR, so that they are comfortable with the pitcher. The added bonus, is they are a cheap way to fill the ’pen with viable pitchers.

I also agree that projections are wrong. It is absolute a roll of the dice, but cost in dollars makes it more palatable to me. I’d rather give a rookie who is making a fraction of $1M a whirl than pay $2M for an equally risky roll of the dice on a Wells, Ponson, Clement, etc.

And it absolutely comes down to specific names, which i actually was thinking about at lunch. I think I’m a bit too vexed by the Pineiro signing, because he is a scrap from the heap and could easily be replaced by another of his ilk. Signing pitchers like him to multi-million and multi-year deals is silly. I would put forth that Looper is another pitcher who is easily replaceable, whether by rook or by scrap, and is therefore not worth, say, $10M per for three years (pulled out of thin air merely by comparing his production to Pineiro’s). I’d rather go after a Lowe and plug in a Garcia than sign Looper.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 2:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep

“I’d rather give a rookie who is making a fraction of $1M a whirl than pay $2M for an equally risky roll of the dice on a Wells, Ponson, Clement, etc.”

I absolutely agree. Problem is, there’s only so many rookies around, right? At some point you have to go and pay retail. heck, even the A’s went out and paid for Loaiza a few years back.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 4:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yankees

They would be in a lot better shape had Joba started the year in the rotation and Hughes hadn’t gotten hurt. He was pretty dominant for them in some starts down the stretch last season.

The downside of being let down by prospects if that if they fail, you have to scrap around. If a veteran fails, you have those prospects to fall back on before you have to resort to scrap.

The downside of relying on veterans is that they make a ton of money and you could just as easily get replacement level pitchers from your farm system for much cheaper than paying someone like Piniero $7.5 million to do it. Do you have any idea how good a second baseman we could get off the free agent market with that money in addition to what they’re paying the current middle infielders.

Put a guy in the pen for a year or two and see what he can do, then turn him into a starter.

This is the “old way of doing it”? If anything it’s a new way to do it, and it’s not all the effective with most pitchers either. Guys like Cain, Lincecum, Sanchez, and Correia for the Giants aren’t in the bullpen and those guys are all pretty good in their initial major league seasons. Pen to rotation make work for pitchers who need a taste of the big leagues, don’t have above average stuff, or don’t have a spot in their teams current rotation (like Wainwright in 2006). But I don’t think that conversion rate works any better than any other big league conversion for pitchers.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 2:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree completely

In the “olden days” a lot of guys did apprenticeships because the big-league club was pretty well stocked with proven guys and they had to wait for someone to get hurt or fail. Of course, that was when there were only 64 starting pitchers in the big leagues and MIs didn’t hit opposite field homers. Now, there are 150 starting pitcher slots in the big leagues and the hitters are much, much better. A rookie has a much better chance of outperforming the veteran in the rotation than he did 30-40 years ago.

I think if you are really looking for a rookie to contribute you should use him in the role most similar to what he is accustomed. Morris went straight to the rotation, Benes went straight to the rotation, Haren went into the rotation with the A’s, plus all the examples cited above.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 14, 2008 3:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK

To use your style…

"The downside of relying on veterans is that they make a ton of money "

I kind of thought “of course, you pay for this layer, and therein lies the obvious rub” set forth the fact that I understand that veterans make money.

"and you could just as easily get replacement level pitchers from your farm system for much cheaper than paying someone like Piniero $7.5 million to do it. "

Um, that’s sort of what brought about my original post – I’m not advocating trading people away or denying prospects a cahnce. Im just sayind that you can’t just asume that your farm system is going to produce even replacement level pitchers. (I realize you can’t assume anything, even that a veteran is going to come in and be replacement level. But generally, it’s a safer bet when you have an MLB track record).

As for ’pen to rotation being the “old way” I submit these names:
Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Sandy Koufax, Jack Morris, Don Drysdale, Jim Palmer. All these guys spent at least half a year in the ’pen. It is not a new way of doing it. giveml does a nice job explaining why it is not so common anymore below.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 14, 2008 4:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Correct me if I'm wrong

but weren’t Kennedy and Hughes pretty highly touted prospects? Like deemed rather untouchable in certain trades for guys like Johan Santana?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 1:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That they were

And I’m not saying that there was not some hefty gambling going on with the Yanks’ decision. I’m saying that it was a cheap gamble. We seem to shop for a #5 in the scrap heap every offseason, which is fine, but why not sign a scrap for $1M later in the year if they don’t pan out and give Garcia or McClellan a whirl in the rotation?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 2:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Opportunity cost

strikes again! It’s not cheap if the opportunity cost is landing Santana. Of course to find out exactly what that’s worth, you’d have to see how much $/win added he’s worth, but you get the point.

by spencegrif on Aug 14, 2008 3:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also

Not trading Hughes in a Santana deal may yet prove to be the proper decision. Take into account the extension that the Mets signed Santana to and his age as well as what Hughes could do in the future. It could also prove to be stupid of the Yankees not to have pulled the trigger. It’s too early to judge the Yanks at this point.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 5:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The thing about Looper

that I love the most is the fact that he feels like a “grand protector” of the rivalry between us and the Cubs. I couldn’t recall any time he’s been bad against the Cubs, ever.

So I bounced some numbers .

As a relief pitcher man was he good in ’06 versus them. And since? Very, very nice.

Verus the cubs he’s done it at the line of

3-2 in 16 games and 41 innings. 9 ER, 2/1 K/BB ratio with an era of 1.51

yeah, you can claim small sample size and that’s fair, but that’s just flat out fantastic on any metric.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 14, 2008 10:53 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Unfortunately, it looks like he's been betrayed by the offense a couple of times....

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

he really could have more wins this season

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 1:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We should resign him....

Just because of that lol we need all the people we can get who owns the Cubs……..

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 14, 2008 11:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

plus he’s kind of like having insurance, since he seems pretty durable and Lohse is probably gone after this season. although I have no idea if he works into their budget as an extra starter

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 1:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ok hats off...

for Looper. Now do we give him the 2 year, $10 million deal he’s looking for? We just made this mistake recently with Pineiro, although I think Looper would be a better deal at that price.

by guayzimi on Aug 14, 2008 11:03 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't you think Pineiro is about what you need from a 5th starter?

He’s not been 2007 Kip Wells or Anthony Reyes awful or anything.

Given, too much $ to pay a 5th starter, but he’s been OK.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 14, 2008 11:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They can always pull a "Miles"

Let him check out the FA market and if he cannot find the deal he wants, sign him for one a year deal again….. 4 to 6 mil.

They’ll probably do that with Miles again….. being he wants to be a starter instead of bench player.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 14, 2008 11:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Every organization...

has an Aaron Miles or could get one at any moment. In that sense he doesn’t have any value. Looper does have value, the only question is will he keep this up for another two years.

And as for Pineiro, he’s a fine fifth starter, but we could get similar results from someone making six figures, then wildly overpay for a middle infielder. That would have been a better plan imo.

by guayzimi on Aug 14, 2008 11:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think that this will happen too

and it’s probably better for both sides

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 1:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Miles might want to be a starter

but who would want to have Aaron Miles as a starter, well besides me (and only because our other options are so …well not good)?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Aug 14, 2008 5:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Are you saying...

$10 mil/year for two years or $10 mil total for two years? No doubt he can do better than the latter. He’s probably looking for 3/$24 and will probably sign for 3/$18-21. To answer your question…yes to 2/$10…he’s easily worth that, and we can pay $2.5 mil of Joel’s $7.5 mil making him tradable.?

by cardzfanbub on Aug 14, 2008 12:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh...

we signed Joel for $13 mil not $10 mil…

by cardzfanbub on Aug 14, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was saying...

$10 mil total, five per year.

Maybe it’s too low… there aren’t many good comps available for a 34 year old that’s put in two mediocre seasons as a starter after bombing out as a reliever. Pineiro recently posted FIPs similar to Looper (~4.8) and got 2/$13 but he was four years younger. Looper was only able to pitch 175 innings last year and he tired badly over the last 40. He’s not an “innings eater” or a “workhorse” whatever those terms mean.

by guayzimi on Aug 14, 2008 1:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd re-sign him for 2Y/$10M

so he probably won’t go for that cheap ;) But who knows. All it takes is one BSI GM, and lots of teams have money available next off-season.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 14, 2008 1:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

bsi = bat shit insane?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 14, 2008 3:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is Kinney part of the cavalry?

You’d think I’d have learned by now, but I guess I haven’t. This is nice to hear:

“I have full intentions of being with the club within a few weeks,” Kinney said Wednesday after his workout at the club’s spring training facility in Jupiter, Fla. “We’ll see how my elbow feels. I plan on pitching in September for the club, if they need me, if they want me.”

We could use him, methinks.

by mojowo11 on Aug 14, 2008 11:03 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is Kennedy still whining?

Or am I reading too much into this:

Of his two sacrifice flies, which helped the Cardinals break down Marlins starter Ricky Nolasco, Kennedy said: “You’d like to be a little more aggressive in those situations. But when you’re not in there every day, you’re not as comfortable as you want. You’re more cautious and make sure you get that done.”

From MLB.com story.

It seems to me that he’s still miffed about not being the regular 2B and isn’t afraid to stick his thumb in TLR’s eye when he gets the chance.

by augustdragon on Aug 14, 2008 11:12 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think he's pretty much whined since he's been here

didn’t he skip the World Series parade or something? Maybe i’ve got my facts mixed up. I also remember him being in the doghouse a bit before the season started.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:27 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

encarnacion

That was JuanE who skipped the parade. Kennedy wasn’t with the Cards in ’06 (Belliard was our 2B).

by dhawks on Aug 14, 2008 11:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jose Oquendo

I believe he skipped out to take his daughter to college or something. Lame, lame reason, I know.

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Aug 14, 2008 2:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

shame on Jose

for not expecting the Cardinals to win the World Series and plan a college trip during that time!!!

Ah…..we’ll forgive….

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 2:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think

I’d rather my dad take me on the parade than go check out a school.

His daughter must be a serious student.

by liam on Aug 14, 2008 2:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The kicker?

The school he took her to that weekend was DeVry

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 14, 2008 3:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seriously?

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Aug 14, 2008 4:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No

That was a very poor attempt at humor. Apologies.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 14, 2008 5:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if this was said below i'm sorry, i'm just reading the thread

but Juan E skipped the parade because his daughter became ill very quickly the night the Cards won the WS. he left the city the morning after & went straight to the hospital. i forget what was wrong with her, but thats why he wasn’t in the parade. it had nothing to do with him being mad he didn’t play a lot. i remember this because i ripped him up & down something fierce for being a cry baby, when in fact that was the farthest thing from the truth. and i felt very badly for doing that. i still do actually.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Aug 14, 2008 5:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm

didn’t know that.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 5:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thats what it was.

I knew Juan skipped the parade too, but couldn’t remember what Kennedy had done.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is Winter Warmup the Fan Fest?

I know TLR was not at all pleased with AK skipping it.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 11:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think so.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it's pretty simple

if you want to play often, don’t suck so hard.

by jeff_abs on Aug 14, 2008 11:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and don't lose us games vs. the cubs

by missing a routine ground ball, when you’re supposed to be a +defender

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ay-yi-yi

Kennedy DID get the chance to be in there everyday, and did a jolly poor job of playing baseball when given said opportunities. The dude has gotten beat out by Aaron Frickin’ Miles, of all people, so I don’t think he gets to whine about playing time right now. He’s a lifetime .270/.330./380 guy, which is not good, with no power, an ugly swing, and a poor attitude too apparently. He just needs to get over it and do what he can to help the team when he does get to play, which given TLR’s love of matchups and shuffling will be fairly regularly.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 14, 2008 11:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

you’d think he would realize by now that playing for TLR is going to me you will be platooned at least to some extent

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't see that as whining, as much as just acceptance of what's going on

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 14, 2008 12:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My issue is...

would he have done better if he were playing everyday? When he was playing everyday he was rolling weak grounders to the right side…I’ll take the two sac flies thank you very much!!

by cardzfanbub on Aug 14, 2008 1:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

I think he has benefitted from the platoon.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 14, 2008 3:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rumors Rumors Everywhere

So, to add fuel to rumor fires: MLB Trade Rumors report an unsubstantiated rumor from Buster Olney and Geoff Baker that the waiver claim on Jarrod Washburn could be from the Cardinals.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/08/washburn-ibanez.html

by sdelek on Aug 14, 2008 11:19 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wouldn't every...

AL team have to pass on Washburn for him to make it to the Cards? Seems unlikely…

by guayzimi on Aug 14, 2008 11:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"It could happen"

to quote one of my son’s favorite movie. Being Washburn’s contract is big, the Cards don’t have to give up much (I hope).

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 14, 2008 11:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i love

angels in the outfield

by 916baller on Aug 14, 2008 11:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

quote from the movie

or from TLR?

One more loss! One more loss which could’ve been a win! And you call yourselves professionals. I have never, ever seen a worse group of twenty-five players! You don’t think as a team, you don’t play as a team, you don’t even LOSE as a team! You’ve all got your heads so far up your butts, you can’t even see the light of day! One more loss and I… I’ll do this…
[throws a chair at a rack of bats]

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 14, 2008 11:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

from the movie

Danny Glover is great — and his TV interview before that is fantastic as well….

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 1:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well, that's what hung up the Yankees deal

apparently the M’s wanted the Yankees to take the full contract and give up multiple prospects.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Byrd

Apparently Cleveland just wanted someone to eat the remaining 2 Million for him, Red Sox gave up nothing for him

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 14, 2008 12:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know how many teams

would actually want him. (looking at the numbers, looks about like what we’ve got)

But you’re right, the only teams with a worse waiver position than the Cards are the Cubs and Brewers.

by Phizzle on Aug 14, 2008 11:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

washburn since june 1

has been about as good as looper -- 3.29 era in 82 innings, .744 opponent ops. . . . .

by lboros on Aug 14, 2008 11:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Refresh my recollection

What’s Washburn’s contract situation for next season?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

according to MLBTraderumors

Its only another 13.45 for the rest of this year and next. Thats about what you would expect to pay for a starter nowadays.

by JBagKY on Aug 14, 2008 11:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Its

9.85 prorated for the rest of this year and 10.35 for next year.

by JBagKY on Aug 14, 2008 11:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not sure I want to pick all of that up

But I’d pick up 2/3-3/4 of it, probably. He’s not going to blow anybody out of the water, but you can probably count on him for reliable innings of mediocrity.

by mojowo11 on Aug 14, 2008 11:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

prorated

so 9.85/162 *39 = 2.37, I know that is crude prorating but it should work out similar

by StLHugo on Aug 14, 2008 12:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and he's under contract for one more year

which beats the hell out of signing Looper for 2 or 3 years.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 11:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 14, 2008 11:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

Better to get Washburn through next year for that salary than to sign Pineiro Looper for multiple years. Acquiring Washburn also probably means that Lohse will cease to be a Cardinal after the last our of the season.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 11:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which is probably.....

A good thing Lohse wont be back…….I love him and I would love to see him pitch more for us but he will be expensive next year…….

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Aug 14, 2008 11:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And the next and the next and the next and (possibly) the next

He will get a contract long in years as well as high in dollars.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 11:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Washburn is 34.

A one-year deal, I suppose, would be okay. He’s a leftie, which the Cardinals could use. I don’t know if I like stuffing another generic No. 3/4/5 into the rotation, though. I would like to see Mo shoot a little higher during the offseason. Maybe this is a better time to go fishing. I don’t know what motivates Lohse, however. If he would like to stay in St. Louis, this deal would certainly not improve his outlook.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 14, 2008 12:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shoot higher at who?

Burnett
Byrd
Dempster
Fogg
Garland
Glavine
Hampton
Jennings
Looper
Lowe
Maddux
P. Martinez
Mussina
Ol. Perez
Od. Perez
Pettitte
Sabathia
Sheets
Wolf

Left off some names I deemed implausible or guys with affordable options that will be picked up (Lackey and Penny).

Honestly, I’m not blown away by the options.

by mojowo11 on Aug 14, 2008 12:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's making 7 mil this year

So he’ll get about 11/12 per year next year. (he’ll be 32 next year)

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 14, 2008 12:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here's hoping

that the Cubbies sign him to a 5-year/$70M deal. They seem to jump at the chance to throw money at a player through his late thirties.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 12:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nah

they’ll only do that if he’ll agree to a no-trade clause as well.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 14, 2008 1:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My choice

You know that Sabathia will be the one everyone is talking about. I say throw 3 years/$42 million at Jon Garland right away and see if you can’t make him say “OK, let’s go” right away.

by stlfan on Aug 14, 2008 12:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no thanks

if Lohse isn’t worth 4Y$48M, why would John Garland be worth 3Y$42 million? They’ve been nearly the exact same pitcher the last 18 months….

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 14, 2008 1:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Garland vs. Lohse

Lohse doesn’t have the history of a Jon Garland. I’m not saying Garland would be a savior, but he’s been a bit better than Lohse throughout his career.

Garland is one year younger than Lohse, to start with. A 3 year deal will take Garland through his age 31 season.

Baseball-reference.com has Lohse at a career OPS+ of 96, Garland at 105.

Lohse’s career WHIP is 1.414, Garland’s 1.375.

Lohse has thrown 1320 innings in his career, topping 200 once and 190 two other times. Garland has thrown 1580.7 innings in his career, topping 200 four times and 190 two other times.

Lohse’s K:BB ratio is a little bit higher than Garland’s.

Garland is tougher on RHB and on LHB throughout his career.

In their wins throughout their careers, Lohse and Garland have pitched nearly identically (.235/.288/.356 line for Garland and .235/.282/.344 line for Lohse.) However, in losses, Garland (.329/.388/.533) has seemed to keep his team in it better by pitching better than Lohse (.341/.399/.583). The difference in splits between them in no decisions is not quite as pronounced as the difference in losses, but Garland still keeps his team in it better.

In his career, Garland has also stymied more people with runners in scoring position. Lohse’s opponents have nearly .070 higher OPS with runners in scoring position as they do vs. Garland.

Maybe I’ll back off and say 3 years $37.5 or $39 million, but I don’t think that will get him.

by stlfan on Aug 14, 2008 3:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Garland is intriguing

But, I’d be willing to bet on him getting a 4-year deal. I fear that 3-year deals for proven, healthy middle-to-top-of-the-rotation starting pitchers may be going the way of the dinosaurs.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 14, 2008 4:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pass on Garland

aging flyball-control pitcher. . . I think Mitchell Boggs can give us 80% of that for 10% of the cost.

by azruavatar on Aug 14, 2008 4:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not that I disagree on passing on him but

Flyball-control pitcher? He’s a 4-seam/sinker groundball guy with a career 1.30 GB/FB (1.63 this year). And Garland is slightly above league average, if Boggs gives us an 80 ERA+ we’re in trouble.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Aug 14, 2008 5:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

His GB rate was around league average

prior to this year. I had it in my head that he was a flyball pitcher for some reason. Still a control pitcher who isn’t that good but he does have decent groundball numbers.

Not sure what I was thinking of — good catch.

by azruavatar on Aug 14, 2008 7:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"4-seam/sinker groundball guy"

seems like Duncan’s kind of player. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Angels sign him before free agency hits, though. :(

by stlfan on Aug 15, 2008 12:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good point

Got it from here. He’s not on there, despite the fact that the list claims to have been updated yesterday. I dunno.

by mojowo11 on Aug 14, 2008 1:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

'09 rotation

Looper has been quite solid for the BOB this year, no doubt. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone out there is willing to overpay him just to get another not-awful arm on their team. I really hope that isn’t the Cardinals. With Piniero stuck around for another year I don’t believe it is wise to get another mediocre guy based on above-expectation results. I think it is best to pencil in Carpenter and Wainwright as the top two, then plug Garcia and Wellemeyer (who comes quite cheap) in to the rotation, and then bite the bullet on Piniero. The team’s money can be spent either shoring up the pen or (I sincerely hope) finding middle infielders who can actually hit. Boggs, Todd, and Mortensen can be held in the holding tank of Memphis for when someone goes down or totally