Looking Back
by the red baron on Aug 13, 2008 9:04 AM EDT
225 comments
I'm not going to lie. That one hurt.
Seven back from the Cubbies for the division. Four games behind the Brew Crew for the wild card.
The Cards are in trouble.
Once again, the offense comes out strong, then flat out disappears. I'm not sure exactly what in the hell is going on, but it has got to stop. Absolutely pathetic. They didn't even make it to the fourth inning this time before they went ghost on us. The Cards failed to get anything going at all against a young pitcher with some definite control problems after the first four batters of the game. Volstad's pitch count after the first inning was right around thirty pitches. After five innings, I believe it was 72. Sigh.
What I'm more interested in than the amazing vanishing offense at the moment, though, is Kyle Lohse.
We've all heard the whole deal on Lohse a hundred different times by now, of course, so I won't rehash the whole thing. I would, however, like to look at some numbers for Mr. Lohse and see what we can see.
I was thinking, actually, of revisiting the whole idea of a contract extension for Lohse, to be honest. I had looked at the situation a while back, and I wanted to go back and look at it again with some further perspective. I had thought that now we would see if everyone still wanted to give Lohse that big multi year deal that they were clamoring for back then. Unfortunately, I seem to remember the board being much more adamant about extending Kyle than was apparently actually the case, because we were pretty lukewarm on the idea back then, too. This, of course, presents a problem for me, as it essentially destroys the thesis of my whole post. I don't know where you people get off being sensible and levelheaded about player contracts, but damn you all for it.
So, I decided to go for it anyway. I'll just have to change the thrust of the thing to a self congratulatory tone of, "see how smart we are, guys? Crazy, reactionary fans were screaming for a deal for this guy like, yesterday, but not us! No, not us." As I believe I've pointed out before, I am not at all above pandering to a crowd.
So what's happened to Lohse? Well, I'm glad you asked. We look at his current line, and his ERA sits at 3.80. Now, that is an excellent ERA. Solidly in #2 starter territory. You look at his FIP, and it's 3.93, right in line with that ERA number. So this performance of Lohse's definitely isn't an illusion.
What you do have to worry about, though, is his more recent numbers. In August alone, Lohse has thrown 12.1 innings, with an ERA of 5.11. That's ugly, and guess what? The bad isn't an illusion, either.
In the first four months of the season, Lohse did two things unusually well that he had never done much in his career before. He limited walks, and he generated groundballs. In the first four months, Lohse's BB/PA percentages were 5.8%, 6.0,6.0, and an astounding 4.2% in July. In August? It's gone up to 7.5%. Now, that's not a huge difference, by any means. Less than a one and a half percent difference is barely enough to even notice.
However, when we look at the other side of the equation, the groundball side, that's when we start to see some dramatic differences. Over the first four months of the season, Kyle consistently had GB% numbers in the 48-50% range, among the highest of his career. Previously to this season, Lohse typically sat more in the low 40s. His lowest GB% in any month this season 'til now had July, when 46% of the balls put into play against Lohse were of the worm burning variety.
In August, though, Kyle's ground ball percentage is 28%. That's right, twenty eight. Not so good, eh? The odd thing about this month is that Lohse has seen his K rate go up, to slightly over 20%, compared to numbers consistently in the 12% range earlier in the season.
What's really worrisome about all of this is that Lohse's recent numbers look like his career numbers. The first four months of the season, Lohse looked like an entirely different pitcher than we had seen in previous years. So far in August, though, and even at the end of July, what he's doing is much more in line with the pitcher he's always been. His BABIP this month is .278, so he's not getting unlucky. What he's doing is turning back into the pitcher we thought he was.
Now, don't get me wrong. I think Lohse is still a better pitcher than a 5+ ERA. But I also have to concede that the way he's pitched his last three or four times out is very much in line with the way he's pitched the rest of his career. He's no longer generating as many grounders, his control has regressed, and his ERA is rising correspondingly.
Of course, the thing about all of this is that he's still likely going to receive a four year deal somewhere. The latest figures that I've heard floating around are in the neighbourhood of 4/$48 million. Personally, I don't want any part of that deal. I didn't particularly like it two months ago, and I certainly don't like it now.
It's entirely possible that Lohse and Duncan will be able to get it together and get Kyle back on track. But looking at the numbers, I have to think that at least some of this is just Lohse regressing back to his own personal mean. We all knew he was probably pitching a bit over his head early in the season, and it now looks as if he's coming back to his career a bit.
So my question is this: have the past couple of months since I last asked changed your mind any? We've seen Wainwright get hurt in the meantime, and we've seen what Carpenter appears to offer when he's healthy. We now know that Mark Mulder is truly toast, with no more doubts or questions. With all that in mind, and more time to assess some of the young pitchers that the Cardinals could potentially be looking at plugging in next season, do you guys have any interest in trying to extend Lohse now? To me, it looks as if we were right the first time in thinking that extending him was, at best, premature and, at worst, just a flat out bad idea. But, I'm interested in revisiting the question and seeing what you all think.
We've had two more months of seeing what Kyle Lohse offers. Should he be a part of the team's plans going forward?
On the flip side, do you guys think the Cards should try to push Lohse through waivers and see if they can find a taker for him now? I realise that we're still in the race, but the value Lohse could bring in return could still be very, very good. Personally, I'm not at all sure he's going to qualify for Type A free agent status, so he may not net the Cardinals the two draft picks we're all hoping for if he leaves. As of now, there's still a pretty good chance he does, I think, but if his numbers continue to tumble, he could fall short of Type A pretty easily. Would the talent haul you could get from a team needing to shore up the middle of their rotation to make a playoff run be worth more than the supplemental pick the Cards would get for Type B Lohse?
Or, of course, we could just hold tight. Keep Lohse, stay the course, let the cards fall where they may. That's basically been the MO so far, of course (I'm really proud of that pun, by the way), and it's the most likely course of action going forward , I'm sure. Myself, I was half hoping the Cardinals would flip Lohse at the trade deadline for some prospects, but, as some of you have been so kind to point out, I'm much too eager to wave the white flag.
Discuss amongst yourselves, folks. I'm in a hurry this morning, so I've got to be going. See you all later with a game thread.
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Last night
quite a few of Lohse’s pitches were up in the zone. I don’t know if he throws a four-seamer, but that high heat would be somewhat consistent with increased K, increased flyouts versus groundouts. He just didn’t do a good job keeping the ball down consistently—at lest for a couple of innings when it mattered. Even later, when he settled down just before the rain came, he gave up some near home runs that were caught. Is this fatigue? We’ve seen it before with a lot of Cardinal pitchers. Hard to say. Maybe it’s mental…
by Red in Chicago on Aug 13, 2008 9:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A reason for that last night
could be that the umpire wasn’t calling strikes at the bottom of the zone. Maybe Lohse felt he needed to lift the elevation just to get the strikes called.
by cbsnyder on Aug 13, 2008 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I fear that the team will extend Lohse based on abbreviated success in a red-and-white uniform and then he’ll turn into a crappy pitcher again on us next year. Then we’ll all harp on how terrible a decision the contract extension was, possibly call for him to be DFA’d from time to time, and so on.
Wait a second…this sounds familiar…
by mojowo11 on Aug 13, 2008 9:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
except lohse
has a more proven track record than pineiro. I really don’t think he’s going to get worse than his career norms, he works well with the pitch to contact philosophy. I think Duncan will have him throwing low in the zone again soon… he really is a Suppan type #3 pitcher who is consistent if not mind blowing. that said, I was pretty much for signing him, but now I’m just ready to give the new round of pitchers a chance. we have a pretty set rotation next year, with carp, wainer, welley, young pitcher (not that Young Pitcher), and pinata. so we don’t really need him. I don’t think he’s worth moving this season (unless we fleece somebody) because we still have so many games left to play against teams that are ahead of us. while it’s not likely we will cleanup against the cubs and brewers, I still don’t think we’re that much worse of a team than those two to just give up yet with so many games to put the ball into play and see what happens left.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes and no...
I would like to bring Lohse back on another very short term deal similar to the one for this year (one year $12 mil would be great). Though we have some guys in AAA that are getting close to being ready…I don’t think there’s anyone who couldn’t use some more innings there. Unfortunately as you stated Lohse is going to go after multiple years at more than $10mil per. I do believe in Lohse as a solid #3 borderline #2 pitcher he would look great next year behind ADAM and Carp and ahead of Welley…it just won’t work out that way.
by cardzfanbub on Aug 13, 2008 9:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that'll never happen
Kyle Lohse will get a hefty multi-year deal this offseason. There is zero chance he signs another one-year deal with the Cards for 2009. The Cards choice is a multi-year deal (three years at a minimum) or take the draft picks as compensation—a 1st and sandwich pick. Yeah, I was with the impressionable fans crying for Lohse to get extended earlier in the year but the more we see of him the better those draft picks look.
by jjray on Aug 13, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Take the picks
4 year deals should be reserved for top of the rotation potential. Steady Eddie types eventually age too, and 4 years is a long window to look ahead for a pitcher. Those 3 run/7 inning performances can become 4 run/ 6 innings performances, or worse, in a hurry.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 13, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good post, RB
I feel the same about Lohse as I did a couple months ago. He’s going to want a long-term deal and we should tell him, “Thanks for the year you spent w/ us!” He’s been good this year but isn’t worth a 4 year deal. He’ll be 30 in December so we’d be paying for his age 30, 31, 32, and 33 years. He’s not going to get better than he is right now. He’ll be blocking our pitching prospects as well.
Next year, for example, we’ll have Wainwright, Carp, Pineiro and Wellemeyer w/ Garcia, Todd, Boggs, Mortensen, and possibly McClellan able to step in should the team decide to go that route. But next year isn’t even the problem. As some have pointed out, maybe Todd won’t be ready next year. Well, what about the final 3 years of that deal? How long do we want to keep Todd in AAA while we’re paying a 32 year old mediocre starter $12 M.
Signing Lohse to a long-term deal is what gets teams in trouble financially. You should spend a lot of money on your stars, not on people who are pretty easily replaceable - and Lohse is definitely replaceable. We’re going to need to use that money on middle infield help and possibly bullpen help, not to mention the increasing salaries of Ankiel and Ludwick. Re-signing Lohse to a 4/48 contract would be a bad move simply b/c of the opportunity cost - lost opportunitiies for young pitchers, a worse middle infield situation.
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 9:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
However, I’m not sure that management or the general fanbase always understands opportunity cost.
Both sides are likely to have some push to keep him based on his “fake” numbers (13-3, under 4.00 ERA). I think that’s a tragedy if it happens. Think about if we’d signed Soup, Woody, or Bipolar Betty a couple years ago? What would our rotation and salary look like now?
by rencelas on Aug 13, 2008 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lohse's #1 comp is Jeff Suppan
and you’re right about the financial problems we’d be in if we had re-signed ANY of those 3. The general fanbase may not understand opportunity cost but it’s management’s job to understand it. We’re screwed if they don’t.
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they do understand
If Pinero is our worst Pitcher signing than we are doing good. They took a chance on him and signed him because they market was so inflated at the time. They didn’t overpay for Suppan or Weaver.
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 13, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 HC
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by Futility Infielder on Aug 13, 2008 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is replaceable but
guys like Lohse are not as easy to find/create without Dave Duncan. It’s a tough call, but he does give you that middle-of-the-rotation guy who won’t fall apart. This team needs another steady arm, as Carpenter is almost certain to end up on the DL again in the next couple of years.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 13, 2008 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Durability
In my mind, durability of a pitcher is one of the more undervalued qualities on the market today. I’m not advocating that we go out and sign Livan Hernandez or anything, but having a guy who has little injury history and consistently goes out and throws 185 to 200 innings per season is a very valuable member of a pitching staff, and valuable in a way that isn’t as touted as other characteristics. The question then becomes one of how to place a value on durability. I certainly don’t think it is worth 4 years/$48M, but a 4-year deal for Lohse isn’t as bad as a 4-year deal for a Burnett type,and a $48M contract seems a little rich.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 13, 2008 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have never seen a quote in print
saying either Lohse or Boras wants a 4/$48 MM deal, even a 3/$36 deal. I think the only place these numbers have been bandied about have been on chatboards. That said, the guy’s going to get something similar to what Suppan got at a minimum. So you have to think $10 million a year is the starting point. Also, Lohse has been floating from team to team for years now. He wants some normality, so you have to figure a relatively long-term deal is in his plans. I think he does really firm up the rotation. Pineiro’s the guy whose contract needs to be off the books, unfortunately.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 13, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carlos Silva
I think the 4-year/$48M is based off of Silva’s contract with the Mariners last offseason, which was 4 years at $44M. They are similar pitchers and no doubt Boras will be pointing to Suppan and Silva while arguing that Lohse is better.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 13, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure
but then the team points to how badly silva has turned out and that suppan has been hurt this year. i’d wager he gets less than those two did, but it’ll prob still be more than the cardinals should pay.
by spencegrif on Aug 13, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he only firms up the rotation
for a year or two, and then his $12+ M salary (remember, teams like to backload contracts) becomes an albatross.
Let’s use Suppan as an example. Lohse’s #1 comp is Jeff Suppan. Lohse will be 30 in December. Suppan was actually 2 years older when he signed w/ the Brewers. A 4 year deal would pay for Lohse’s age 30, 31, 32, and 33 seasons. Suppan’s age 32 and 33 seasons (last year and this year) he had a 4.62 era and a 4.56 era. He’s been on the DL this year for the first time in years. His FIP last year was a respectable 4.30 but this year it’s 5.00. His backloaded contract means he’ll be receiving $25 of his $42 M in the last 2 years. He’s getting worse, less durable, and more expensive as he gets older. Lohse might stabilize a rotation in years 1 and 2, but in years 3 and 4 he hinders it. And all the while he’s blocking some of our cheaper, cost-controlled pitchers from being part of the rotation.
It’s not like the Cards have no one w/ which to replace Lohse either. Garcia could step in next year and replace him. Will he give us 190 IP? I don’t know but if he doesn’t , we’ve got Todd, Boggs, and Mortensen on their way. We’re also talking about the 5th starter here—not the 3rd starter. Sure, I don’t expect Carp or Wellemeyer to make 34 starts each, but 25 each isn’t unreasonable and we have ample replacements in the pipeline.
Spending $48 M on Kyle Lohse not only prevents the team from spending $48 M on areas where there is a genuine need, but it also prevents us from finding out if our prospects are going to pan out. I’ve heard the word “guarantee” tossed around. Todd, Garcia, and the others are no guarantee to pitch well or pitch 190 innings. But neither is Lohse. What is guaranteed is that Lohse will cost at least 25 to 30 TIMES what the others will cost and that he will be getting older and moving away from his peak while the young guys will be moving toward their peaks. The cost of a mistake by signing Lohse is much greater than the cost of NOT signing Lohse.
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't sign Lohse for 4 years, and certainly not for $48M
My point was that durability is undervalued, just how undervalued was what I wanted to discuss. Lohse’s age makes signing him for more than, say, 3 years, a very poor decision by a baseball executive. Having Boras as an agent probably makes his signing for under 4 years and under $45M highly unlikely, to boot.
If Dave Duncan and TLR are in St. Louis, how many of Garcia, Todd, Boggs, and Mortensen will be penciled into the rotation? Three years ago we’d have pointed to Anthony Reyes as an under control, cost-effective rotation option. Philosophically, TLR and Dunc are not on-board with an A’s style of plugging in young, cheap pitchers into the rotation. Do I agree wholeheartedly with your plan? Absolutely. I beat the Reyes (and Duncan and Ryan) drums consistently. I think we’re more likely to see scraps from the heap than jewels from the farm while TLR and Dunc are manning the reins of the big league club.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 13, 2008 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're right
that LaRussa would rather see Lohse re-signed to a big deal than to plug in one of those other younger guys. But I don’t think it’s the right plan and I think Mo is making a commitment to younger players as well. And you might be right, we might be more likely to see a 1 year deal for Livan or some other scrap heap mess than a commitment to Garcia, but I hope you’re wrong.
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought we were talking about the No. 3 starter?
You can pencil Wellemeyer in there if you want. But if Lohse is in the low fours in ERA, he’s not really a five.
I agree that a long-term deal would block propects. But I think a 2-3 year deal for a durable guy like Lohse would protect our bullpen. This is particularly important with an injury-prone ace and our possibly soon-to-have-Tommy-John-surgery young Colonel in the rotation.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 13, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garcia would be the 5
Pineiro the 4, Wellemeyer the 3, etc. And Lohse isn’t signing for 2 years. 3 is possible but I’d still pass. I would have been much more inclined to give him a 1 year, $14 M deal if we didn’t have to pay Pineiro $8 M next year but…
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
El Pineiro
That horrendous deal is the road block and offers a cautionary example of drinking the Duncan Kool Aid. After a mere 8 starts, which apparently evidenced another Duncan turnaround, we committed ourselves to a below mediocre pitcher for two years for more money than he is worth. While comparing Pineiro to Lohse is unfair to Lohse, who is a better pitcher than Pineiro, it offers a lesson in signing a replaceable player to a deal that will turn out to bite you in the end.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 13, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
the Pineiro deal is basically blocking Lohse being a Cardinal. That and the whole Mulder fiasco, etc.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They can't put Lohse on waivers...
That would look like the front office is quitting on the team. It is a good idea from the standpoint of getting something out of Lohse, but I think the players would be very angry about such a move.
by rthorat on Aug 13, 2008 9:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
his ERA is over 5 this month
and he is trending in the wrong direction. its not as if theyre putting Pujols through waivers. that being said, we waited too long to sell high on him, not sure a team in the race would give up what we think they would to acquire a rental trending fast in the wrong direction.
by UNCDubya on Aug 13, 2008 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see your point
But I don’t think the players would see it that way. They would see the team shipping out a reliable starter who eats innings. Replacing him in the rotation with someone else (Garcia?) would not look good. Lohse has not been that bad recently – sure, he is trending downward, but 12 innings is hardly a large sample size. How would that look to the players if the team ships out a guy that had a few bad starts?
by rthorat on Aug 13, 2008 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
his career numbers
are in line with his numbers over the last month…but maybe youre right about the team feeling like we are giving up. do the players feel that way in Oakland every year? they seem to always play pretty well despite the fact that their best pitcher is traded almost every year.
at this point, i think other teams will see what theyre getting and the reward for putting him through waivers might not be worth it anyway.
by UNCDubya on Aug 13, 2008 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
almost everyone gets put on waivers
in August. It wouldn’t have any effect unless they traded him and a trade would only occur if it became obvious that we were out of it. And I don’t think Lohse, w/ his $4.25 M salary would clear waivers anyway.
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's true
The CBA has a clause saying that the media isn’t supposed to know when a player is put on revocable waivers, too. It’s meant so that players wouldn’t be embarrassed or whatever. I don’t know how the leaks happen (as with Paul Byrd), because it’s apparently a big deal to the players’ union.
by liam on Aug 13, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We should have traded Lohse.
That was apparent at the time and it is even more apparent now.
We are not that far back, but I don’t seriously see us making a run. The only way we get in is if the Brewers collapse (which is possible) and no NL East teams get ahead of us (tougher).
Lohse should be put through waivers. Some team will claim him and then you take all you can get while there is still something to be got for him. If you do it at the same time that Wainwright comes back, it won’t look like the team is giving up on this year (even though they may be, and they would be wise to do so).
And, any contracts over 2 years on this guy are contracts for a different team. There is absolutely no way this guy remains a #2 guy in a rotation even next year and certainly not 4 years from now. If some other team wants to pay it, fine.
Hopefully we will trade him yet this month and get some solid prospects for him. If you have to pacify the base, get a mid-level veteran hitter and 1 prospect so it can sound like we are strengthening our offense.
by Egyptian on Aug 13, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good news about Wagonmaker?
perhaps Carp’s departure Sunday night made TLR see the light….
From the PD:
Wainwright, who has been rehabbing to rejoin the team as a reliever, will start Saturday for Class AA Springfield, and his pitch count will increase to 65 or 70 pitches. The Cardinals pushed his start back one day and elevated his pitch count to get him ready in case he’s needed as a starting pitcher.
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by Futility Infielder on Aug 13, 2008 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If this allows them to save face from
their boneheaded decision to send him to the bullpen, I’m all for it.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 13, 2008 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do agree that "boneheaded" is an apt term
but I have wondered if the real reason they floated the Waino to the ‘pen nonsense was because they were trying to deal for a closer and wanted to appear to be negotiating from a strong position. You know, something along the lines of, “Well, we wouldn’t mind having (insert closer name here), but we have Perez and we are moving Wainwright to the bullpen, so we don’t really need (closer) bad enough to pay the price your are asking.”
At least that was my way of hoping they hadn’t completely lost touch with their sanity.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Aug 13, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when you put it like that
it may have been to take pressure off of the “perez decision” as well. If you could tell the young pitcher that he was going to be replaced when AW got here in 2 weeks regardless, it might make it easier for him if he has a few bad games; he could be replaced without it crushing his ego, because “it was the plan all along”, or he could “win” the job if he does well.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
by SleepyCA on Aug 13, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yay springfield!
yay rotation!
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
by nomar34 on Aug 13, 2008 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
while that is good news
it also says something about Carp’s injury—not so good news.
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I was trying to focus on the positive…
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by Futility Infielder on Aug 13, 2008 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
If it gets Wainwright into the rotation for the stretch run and Carp can return for the last month (praying), then I call it a win-win. Having Carp miss a start against the post-fire sale Reds is not the worst thing in the world. I just hope and pray that he is able to come back. I love watching him pitch and I know that we must have him to have even a hope for the postseason.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 13, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as long as Carp's healthy
next April (and ready to pitch, of course)—that’s my main concern. Anything we get from him this year is gravy.
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For sure
I’d rather have them not take a chance, for once, on a player’s health. I still can’t believe the way that they handled Mulder. They should be embarassed about that. My hope is that the long-term investment in Carp will make them more cautious.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 13, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
August...
Ummm….sample size? 12 innings isn’t a whole lot to say anything about Loshe. It’s possible we’re seeing the START of a trend. But we won’t know that for at least 50 – 100 innings or so (IOW, we probably won’t know that this season). Then again, it’s posslbe Loshe is going through a rough patch and his numbers revert to his earlier season excellence rather than his career mediocrity. This is why GM’s make the big bucks. Anyone can make the easy decisions (excepting Ed Wade, of course). It’s the 6 of one, half-a-dozen of the others that seperate the cream from everyone else.
I’m on the fence a/b resigning Loshe…mostly because there are actually some #1 starters that are hitting the free agent market and I’d like to see us get one for once. But Loshe wouldn’t be a bad consolation prize. I, however, don’t like giving the 4th year. It may be posslbe that he’s out of our price range, for what he brings to the table. D.GOOCH
-- GOOCH
by GOOCH24 on Aug 13, 2008 10:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
12 innings really doesn’t convince me of anything.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I recall,
Kyle Lohse went through a slow spell in early May. From April 22 until May 13 (5 starts), Kyle went 1-2, pitched 27 innings, with an 8.00 ERA and a 1.67 WHIP. After that, he righted the ship. I suspect that he is just going through a bad phase, or at the very least, that earlier performance suggests that we should give him a few more starts to try and get things right again.
by ckeiner on Aug 13, 2008 10:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sept. 1 Call-ups
Who I want to see come up and are on the 40 Man Roster:
Motte
Worrell
Boggs
Hoffpauir
Ryan
Stavinoha
I want to see four more other guys who are not currently on the 40, so somebody is going to have to be removed from the 40 to add these guys….
Barden
Anderson
Freese
Phelps
Not saying we’ll see all of these guys, but just a wish list to see what they can do in the SHOW.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 13, 2008 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We have seen.
Brendan Ryan- Not great, I may have seen enough of him.
Mitch Boggs- Nice stuff, just rough around the edges… Look for better from him next season.
Stavinoha- not too impresive in my opinion. he does not add value considering all the OF in the system.
Barden- Saw him last year during call ups and he was not impressive.
Worrell- he was decent, not great but I liked some of the stuff I saw from him. Still the cards have way better RH arms they can bring out of the pen with KMac, Springer, Perez, Thompson (long reliefe/spot start)
I would like to take a peek at…........
Anderson
Everyone else I have seen or don’t really care to see.
by ICbirdfan on Aug 13, 2008 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You arent curious at all to see Motte?
I wonder if rasmus will get the Jd Drew 1998 cup of coffee?
Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?
by Alxfritz on Aug 13, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry.....Yes I forgot about Motter. I would like to see him.
by ICbirdfan on Aug 13, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not interested in Freese??
he should be up for sure i believe. hell, id take him over Lopez right now.
Milt Thompson FTW!
by gossard56 on Aug 13, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rasmus....
he should be ready by then
by StLHugo on Aug 13, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
40-man roster
This is going to be an interesting problem this winter with a lot of minor leaguers getting to the point where they’ll be exposed in the Rule 5.
I expect that Kelvin Jimenez and Rico Washington will be DFA’d at the end of the Memphis season, and Mike Parisi put on the 60-day DL at least going into september, and probably removed from the 40-man roster before the winter meetings since he needs TJ.
That opens up 3 spots for September call-ups. I’d like to see Razzle Dazzle get one of them if his knee heals as expected.
by liam on Aug 13, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cant use 60 day DL after Oct
You can’t utilize the 60 day DL in the offseason. Thus Parisi will be on the 40 man roster if we don’t want to expose him.
by StLHugo on Aug 13, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn’t I say that, that he’ll probably be removed from the 40-man roster heading into the winter meetings since he’ll be out next year anyways?
by liam on Aug 13, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stavinoha
Why exactly would you want to see more of Nick? There’s no point to it in my mind. We have a plethora of outfielders better than he so why bother. Yeah, he gets some nice hacks at AAA but it’s all John Gall redux and he can’t defend. Rico Washington apparently is still on the 40 man so there is an easy call to open up room. Move Chris Duncan to the 60 day DL opens up another spot. The 40 man is not a problem.
by jjray on Aug 13, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's alot of guys.....
If this team is still fighting for a playoff spot. If we fall out of contention, I’m fine with some of those guys.
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 13, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lohse
I think there is a reason this guy was still around in spring training without a deal. I’ll admit, I’ve been as impressed as anyone with his performance so far, but he seems to be regressing back to his mean. If I’m the Cardinals I say thanks for a good year, take the comp. draft picks, and cut ties.
Use that money to go sign Furcal
by thefordhamflash on Aug 13, 2008 10:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
I’ll pass.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Aug 13, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was a fan over 2 mos ago...
of
A) flipping him for prospects
B) letting him go for compensation (assuming his numbers weren’t amazing and that he wasn’t willing to sign for a reasonable contract…yeah right).
I doubt we can get good value for him now.
Appreciated the pun(S). which word was your pun: “MO” or “cards” ?
by HoosierCardFan on Aug 13, 2008 10:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow
We were being sensible and levelheaded about player contracts…........guess there’s a first for everything.
I was one of the first to push to sign Lohse to a 1 yr deal but I advocated at the time for a team option ala the Clement deal just for this very situation. There is no way his contract makes it through waivers so the best we could do is trade him to the team that claims him, not a very good place to start negotiations. So at the end of the year we should say thanks for the help and good luck in the future, unless you sign with the cubbies. In that case go drop dead.
I like Bryan Burwell but his analogy this morning is disturbing.
So today we are waiting for another uncertain medical report on ace Chris Carpenter and his finicky pitching arm as if it’s the final minutes of “Titanic.”Then we remember that even after all the screaming, icebergs and nervous drama, didn’t “Titanic” have a happy ending?
No, it didn’t. At the end of that horrible movie (it had a nice backdrop for a poor telling of Romeo and Juliet) the boat sinks, hundreds of people die, the guy FINALLY dies and the stupid woman throws the family inheritance into the ocean. What’s happy about that. So I guess he’s saying that Carp will have career ending surgery, we will release Ludwick at the end of the year, and the upper deck at Bush will collapse during a game. Ah happy endings.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Aug 13, 2008 11:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
does this mean that our team will win a ridiculous amount of undeserved rewards?
by mattybobo on Aug 13, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On our way to make way, way too much money?
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
by joker24 on Aug 13, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chris Duncan Gold Glove
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
by Mr Redbird on Aug 13, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and still no yadi! that would be too fair.
by mattybobo on Aug 13, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cesar Izturis Silver Slugger
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
by Mr Redbird on Aug 13, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget about the saddest ending of all
After the closing credits, you hear…
Near…
Far…
Wherever you are…........
This song is stuck in my head, and this song just goes on and and on
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Aug 13, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You made it through the credits?
Hope she was worth it.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Aug 13, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think a Lohse decision is critical if, in 2009, we have
1. Carp
2. Wainwright
3. Wellemeyer
4. Piniero (sorry, can’t remember his nickname)
5. Random pitcher. Garcia?
If we’re dropping out of the race, I wouldn’t argue with seeing what we could get for Lohse.
by sdrone on Aug 13, 2008 11:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's...
1. An injury prone ace who could give you 200+ innings at Cy Young or throw one game and be done again.
2. A stud who got hurt this past year.
3. A guy who’s thrown well this year, but up until coming to STL was a long reliever/mop up man. I have faith in him as a late innings pitcher or a 4/5 starter at best.
4. A guy who has struggled to be a #5 in an oft-injured rotation this year.
5. A rookie.
I don’t like it.
by stlfan on Aug 13, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad the team is emphasizing pitching mechanics finally
but Carpenter throws with an inverted “L”, Wainwright a moderate inverted “W”, Garcia is showing signs of hyperabduction, and Wellemeyer is a Tommy John surgery candidate. Other than that, the rotation will be in good shape. :>
by Red in Chicago on Aug 13, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His name is
Robert Paulson
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Aug 13, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
10 games > .500
This is the level around which the Cardinals continue to hover. There are too many holes and ?’s for this team to compete for the remainder of 2008, and there are no indications anything will push this team through the “better than average” barrier. It is what it is, I guess. Looking back, the Cardinals could have a better record. Several games/series stand out as particularly painful and, given different outcomes, our home team would be, at least, ahead in the NL Wild Card division. C’est la vie.
On the grumpy side, the Cardinals could use a pitcher or three and don’t seem to be pushing for improvement. I’m not sure Byrd would have helped the Cardinals at this point, but could he have hurt? The Red Sox claimed him, looking to bolster the Boston rotation for the stretch run and what do the Cardinals do? A: Send Carpenter back to urgi-care and project Wainwright as a closer.
The book is nearly closed on the team for 2008. At least is was fun while it lasted… and far better than expected at the start of the season.
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
by palampe on Aug 13, 2008 11:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I Could Be Wrong, but
I believe players on waivers must “clear” their league (American or National) before they can be claimed/traded by a team in the other league… so Byrd never got to any NL teams.
Otherwise, there are plenty of NL teams who could use another arm, and who could have claimed him before the Cards got a chance.
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Aug 13, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he was available even before the trade deadline
We could have tried to land him then.
by saladdays on Aug 13, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's right
There was a similar gnashing of teeth, rending of garments, and beating of breasts a few years ago when Brandon Phillips was DFA’d and picked up by Cincinnati, who was ahead of us in the NL pecking order after he’d been passed up by all the AL teams.
by liam on Aug 13, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Houston would claim him
I bet Houston would claim anyone of interest to us before we would get the chance.
by NoStro on Aug 13, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty far off topic
I have a couple of pronunciation questions, since I don’t get to watch and hear on TV every day:
Mozeliak – the first time I read it, I saw “Moe-zee-lee-ack” but I’ve heard “Moe-za-lack” and “Moze-lee-ack”...which one is it (if any of the above)?
Motte – I always thought it was “Mott-ee” but my buddy who interned for the Redbirds said his name as “Mot”...I’d go with him, since he was actually around him, but is that right?
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
by Mr Redbird on Aug 13, 2008 11:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d been saying them the same way as you.
It’s Mo-zay-lock and Mott, though.
by liam on Aug 13, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
I’ll just call him Mo
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
by Mr Redbird on Aug 13, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I too thought it was
mo zee lee ak
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mo-zay-lock
I think is correct.
Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?
by Alxfritz on Aug 13, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On that topic.....
Is the correct pronunciation of Jaime Garcia’s 1st name “hi-may?” I had of course assumed it was “jay-me.”
by sdrone on Aug 13, 2008 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've heard
“Hi-may”
and “Hi-mee”
And fluent spanish speakers in here?
Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?
by Alxfritz on Aug 13, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I always assumed it was "Hi-May"
Most Hispanics with that name go by that, no?
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
by Mr Redbird on Aug 13, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"hi-may" would be the correct spanish pronunciation, yes
i would assume that’s how it’s pronounced, especially after seeing his dad briefly interviewed on tv during his first major league start. i think he actually drove up from mexico to watch his son, but maybe i made that part up.
aside—there are lots of dominicans, puerto ricans, venezuelans, cubans, etc. in the majors, but i feel like there aren’t many mexicans. is that actually the case? anybody have a guess as to why?
by mattybobo on Aug 13, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. baseball is more ingrained in the island countries as a way of life and a way to make it off the island and make a better life for yourself and your family.
2. Soccer is still bigger in Mexico than baseball.
3. As lousy as it may be, mexico still has a better education program than a lot of the island countries, and the kids have a lot more options than being groomed as baseball players starting at the age of nine.
Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?
by Alxfritz on Aug 13, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mexicans really don't like baseball like some other Hispanic countries
I coached at a High School this year that was 48% White, 42% Hispanic (almost 100% of which was Mexican) and 3% Black.
Of the 22 kids on the varsity baseball team, we had one kid who was half Mexican/half White and another Mexican kid who tried out but didn’t make the team. However, a ton of those Mexican kids in our school either played on the soccer team or played soccer everyday in the field next to our baseball field.
I don’t know why, it just seems as a nation they much more prefer soccer to baseball.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Aug 13, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
people tend to lump all "hispanics" together
but Mexicans are different from Guatemalans, who are different from Puerto Ricans and Cubans and so forth. They all see themselves differently and often are antagonistic toward one or more of the other ethnic groups. Just b/c their skin is brown and their first language is Spanish doesn’t make them the same. Just ask a Puerto Rican, or Mexican, or…
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah
this stuff is so obvious to me living in Chicago. Mexicans and Puerto Ricans don’t usually like each other much.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My friend is "Puerto Rican"...
and she can’t speak Spanish, makes no difference to people that she was raised in the US and her Dad never taught her.
by StLHugo on Aug 13, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely
it’s like all Europeans are different, just like all Asians…
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Aug 13, 2008 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i live in an area with a lot of mexicans
and when i drive past the high school, the soccer field is always full, while the baseball field is always empty.
by adiueordie on Aug 13, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, sadly
there are more and more areas that have empty baseball fields. About the only places in America where you can bet to see some activity on baseball fields is in White communities. Blacks have lost interest for some reason and Mexicans haven’t found it.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Aug 13, 2008 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball is most popular (has a longer tradition) in countries
where the United States had a “colonial” or military presence.
"A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while."- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh
by CurtainCall on Aug 13, 2008 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes. Spanish vowels have the same sound 90% of the time
a--ah
e ay
i-eeeeeeee
o-oh
u—ooo
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Aug 13, 2008 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The one (Hispanic) by that name
that I know pronounces his name as Hi-mee
by ArkansasTravs on Aug 14, 2008 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It got pronounced as Hi-May
Which I was supremely disappointed in. Not that I actually care, but reading about him for 2 years I’d always mentally read it as “Jay-me”. Bullshit I tell you.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
by joker24 on Aug 13, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Einar Diaz
That one’s pronounced “Ay-ner.” And we never made fun of it.
by liam on Aug 13, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mo
Don’t know about Motte – would lean towards “Mot”, but I remember reading an interview with Mo and he said “Mo-say-lock”
by brafi on Aug 13, 2008 12:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pineiro
Why not put him on waivers and see if we have any takers. Even if it’s just to get his contract off the books for next year.
by Jcool on Aug 13, 2008 1:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
I have said this a couple times but with Carp injured now. Doubt they would do it. I still think the Cards could trade him in the off season if they had too.
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 13, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
only if they ate a good chunk
of that $8 M salary. They’re not going to do that. Hell, they won’t even DFA Kennedy.
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Team USA on MSNBC
John Gall is up against the Korean team right now, Barden on first…Gall just flew out to right.
by queens on Aug 13, 2008 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Already checked the boxscore
when I got to work. Don’t do it, if’n you’re watching the game.
by liam on Aug 13, 2008 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
where did you find the box score?
i can only find what the final score was, but nothing else.
by launchshuttle on Aug 13, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Brian Barden is a starter on the Olympic team
is .294/.358/.436 at Memphis and can’t get a look in the land of MI sucktasticness because of 35 ABs in 23 games last year? Doesn’t make sense to me.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Aug 13, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
espn described barden
as “one of two natural shortstops” on the team.
"so if you can’t understand what someone else is saying why don’t you just shut up about it instead of being a jerk-off?"
by baw on Aug 13, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carp's shoulder now?
Did anyone else notice this?
Paletta confirmed that Carpenter has a muscle strain in his right “posterior shoulder,” according to a press release issued by the Cardinals. Paletta indicated that Carpenter has no rotator cuff problem and will rejoin the team in Florida for more medical treatment.
What is a “posterior shoulder” anyway? I don’t think it’s the same as a tricep. The word shoulder should have all of us very, very worried.
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 1:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that's probably a good thing
Carp was saying that after the game he couldn’t reproduce the pain he’d felt on those two pitches.
I’ll guess that he still can’t, and so Paletta is being as specific as he can—that Carp had a mild muscle tweak in the back of his upper arm but that it isn’t showing up anywhere. Wonder if they’ll have him pitch Sunday. That’d put him in order to pitch behind Wainwright, assuming he rejoins the rotation as well.
by liam on Aug 13, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I’m glad he didn’t try and tough it out
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
by Mr Redbird on Aug 13, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But
“the back of his upper arm” sounds like the tricep. The posterior shoulder, insofar as we can assume it is part of the shoulder, seems different….and more worrisome.
The fact that the cards radically changed wainos rehab might suggest the injury is more serious than we want to think
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Posterior Shoulder
I just asked a buddy of mine, who is a PT, and he said, that the Posterior Shoulder is in direct relation to the tricep, insofar as it is the insertion point for any repair to the tricep.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Aug 13, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"insertion point"?
huh? for surgery?
You’d think if it was so related to the tricep, they’d say ‘tricep’.....I just wonder why they would bring the word “shoulder” into it at all.
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Assumption
I would assume that, being the proximity of the injury to the shoulder, and with no being able to duplicate the pain, they were going with the easiest to treat. Now, I really have no idea what Im talking about, medically, so take it as you want.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Aug 13, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
posterior shoulder
googling, the triceps muscles appear to be two of the muscles that make up the “posterior shoulder”.
Link to a cool interactive thingy: http://www.gwc.maricopa.edu/class/bio201/muscle/arm/shldrp.htm
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
by SleepyCA on Aug 13, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's a lot of shoulder in that pic
not solely the tricep
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, that was my point
paletta’s comment is way to vague to get ANYTHING from, except that we can sort of rule out another elbow problem.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
by SleepyCA on Aug 13, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
right
same ole same ole vagueness
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where the heck
is Silent_Bob?
You’d think Carp leaving his last start would’ve been the equivalent of the bat signal on the cloud cover.
by liam on Aug 13, 2008 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wondered that myself
a couple of weeks back when Carp first started. I think he (Silent Bob) moved to another land. But I do remember him warning the the time line for a return from TJ is really 15 months + (based on other pitchers with similar age/ operation)
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 13, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Silent Bob posted this April of this year
Chris Carpenter turns 33 in April. He underwent TJS on July 24, 2007. He has a history of shoulder and elbow surgeries on the same throwing arm. My conservative estimate, based on this research, is a return in 14 months, or late September 2008, probably coming out of the bullpen. I don’t like his prospects as a starter in 2008.
Where are you Bob?..... You’re way too silent…..
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 13, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it is good that it's not the rotator cuff
but it also means he’ll miss more than 1 start, I’d imagine.
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
any chance “posterior shoulder” is close to the labrum.
Aren’t those the two devastating pitching injuries for the shoulder. 1) labrum 2) rotator cuff
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my wife is a physician ...
and in her words, this statement issued by the cardinals is “bullshit”.
here are her guesses, based on the above statement:
“it sounds like he either pulled a muscle in the back of the shoulder that stabilized the rotator cuff (bad), or actually has ligamentous injury to the capsule (really bad)”
by jeff_abs on Aug 13, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
finally
some appropriate skepticism…
Haven’t we learned our lesson yet with Paletta et al.? Expect the worse!
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paletta and grain of salt
one in the same this year.
Might as well sit Carp for the year and not risk losing him for 2009 and beyond.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 13, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when I told her
that he is coming off of TJS, she had another “oh shit” moment.
by jeff_abs on Aug 13, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it makes sense though.
if you’ve read chris o’leary’s blog, you know how atrocious carp’s mechanics are to begin with. a lot of stress is placed on the elbow and shoulder with how late he begins his arm action. after a major elbow surgery, it makes sense to see shoulder issues pop up.
by jeff_abs on Aug 13, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will Carrol also claims
5% of TJ patients have shoulder problems.
Not a huge number, but coupled with O’Leary’s stuff, has me quite worried
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's not condemn his labrum yet
I think Carpenter has been extremely leery of pushing too hard. This may be the type of injury other pitchers might have shrugged off. I’m glad he rang the alarm, but let’s put it into context.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
but I don’t think it’s safe to say that everything is puppy dogs and ice cream right now. carp is highly at risk for serious shoulder injury, and we’ve played this game before with the ownership and medical staff.
by jeff_abs on Aug 13, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
remember 3 or so weeks ago
everyone was worried about rushing carp back too soon. I think his performances vs. LA and CHI kind of elevated us into a elated state of amnesia.
If his shoulder is a problem, the cardinals need to answer for 1) rushing him back and 2) counting on his return to save a competitive season (i.e. not adding an arm for the rotation like Washburn or Byrd)
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
carp
The Cards need to be very careful with him… They can not avoid to have Carp in/out of the rotation in 2009. That would not be ideal for many reasons. I think they need to be very careful with him at this point and time. It’s nice that Carp took himself out, so it shows he is not trying to be some hero.
I don’t think he was rushed back. See he started throwing months ago, so he was not rushed back. I don’t get the whole argument of it would be better for him to pitch 60 pitches at AAA vs. 60 pitches at MLB level. The only way you can say Carp was rushed back was by starting his flat ground work too early a while back. Once he is able to pitch off a mound, it’s more about working live action than worrying about being healthy.
by ICbirdfan on Aug 13, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
There wasn’t a hint of shoulder pain. He was not off of target for his return date. His pitch count was very low for his first two starts and was low when he was taken out of the game. I think that, with his mechanics, this injury could have manifested itself on Sunday, or, next March, or next June, or whenever.
Whether or not they should have added an insurance policy is certainly a legitimate criticism. I don’t know that I share it, but you have a point.
The real problem is that Walt made horrible decision toward the end of his tenure: no major changes after ‘06, signing AK, extending Carp for no apparent reason, extending Franklin despite his peripherals, etc.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 13, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's only
just over 12 months removed from the surgery…that’s quick to have him throwing pennant race games in Wrigely field, imo. I think his whole program was rushed.
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all
About a year is an accepted time frame for return. For example, Tim Hudson is having Tommy John surgery and is expecting to return next August for the Braves.
“The surgery requires extensive reconstruction by the orthopedic surgeon and it takes up to 1 year before a pitcher is able to comfortably and safely pitch without risk of injury to the reconstructed ligament.”
http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/tommy_john_surgery.htm
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 13, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah...
but everyone I’ve heard suggests the first few months back after a year are shaky (both in terms of risk and performance).
When Carp announced surgery in July of 07, most of us were writing off him giving us anything in 08.
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arguendo
Even if you are correct, that the risk is highest for the first few months back, which I don’t necessarily agree with, Carp’s elbow is fine. He didn’t injure his elbow. He injured his shoulder. There is no evidence of any pain during his game appearances that would lead anyone to believe that this injury is in any way related to Tommy John surgery. It’s probably more related to his shoulder surgery back in 2002, or the mechanics that caused that injury.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 13, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks, Jeff
sounds like we need to shut him down…stat! The next 3 years are more important than the rest of this season.
And, you mentioned “ownership and medical staff” but neglected to mention “manager and pitching coach.” If he was, indeed, rushed back it’s b/c we’re in the middle of a pennant race and to believe that Tony and Duncan played no role in him being rushed back would be foolish.
Hopefully, this all premature and that simply giving him some time to rest, he’ll be ok. No need to jeopardize the next 3 years - when we have $44.5 M tied up in Carpenter - to try to salvage a few starts at the end of this season.
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really hate that contract extension
by azruavatar on Aug 13, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Inexplicable
Walt made a horrible decision there. The albatross potention of that thing make it indefensible. Now we are stuck waiting with baited breath for news from the Cardinals on his medical condition even though we know such news will likely be misleading, if not outright false.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 13, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really believe
that he did it in order to get the fanbase off his back about his unwillingness or inability to acquire any big-time starters last offseason. So he signed Carp to a long-term extension when he didn’t need to and then went before the fans and said, “Look, we are willing to spend money on good starters!”
Part of it was a reward for winning the World Series—another bad reason to sign someone to a long-term contract, but part of it was to appease the fanbase. Terrible move.
by chuckb on Aug 13, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Inexplicable (from a baseball perspective)
That should have been the title of my post. I remember reading about the extension and thinking, “Why are we doing this?” because there is no firm business/baseball basis for doing so. As HC accurately points out, it was for all of the wrong reasons. But seriously, we extended a fragile starter after he threw over 460 innings in consecutive seasons for the first time in his life. In the subsequent two seasons, we’ve gotten about 20 innings pitched for almost $20M.
After years of skimping on second basemen, perhaps this explains the horrendous AK signing as well. Yes, Virginia, we can spend on a second baseman.
At any rate, we are stuck with the contract.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 13, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
O'Leary still hasn't proven that pitchers with
those mechanics break down more often than those that don’t. He’s taken some anecdotal examples of longevity and labeled them as good examples without anything to prove that those pitchers aren’t just anamolous.
Maybe he’s done more work behind the scenes to quantify or prove these theories of his empirically, but I don’t know how we can come to the conclusion that some mechanics are generally “bad” and some are generally “good” unless you document what pitchers use what mechanics and how often they get hurt.
by azruavatar on Aug 13, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well that's encouraging
seeing how two of his prime targets are waino and carp!
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't forget
that he is a cardinal fan, and does more analysis on cardinal pitchers as a result.
by jeff_abs on Aug 13, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh
i didn’t know that actually
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he has analyzed
an inordinate number of cardinals pitching prospects, and in a recent post referred to “my cardinals,” or something to that effect.
by jeff_abs on Aug 13, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know his evidence is anecdotal
but you have to admit it is pretty compelling. There are very few exceptions to the rules he has come up with (from what I have seen). When people with intimate knowledge of the anatomy involved with pitching get involved, some agree with him…and some don’t. I wonder if we’ll ever know for sure.
by jeff_abs on Aug 13, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here is my take....
I don’t know if mechanics matter much on a healthy pitcher. However once you have been injured… aka….Kerry Wood and Carp multiple times now I think mechanics become very important. Until you injure your arm you never really realize how important throwing properly is.
Kerry Wood has admitted that he finally changed his mechanics some to help him stay healthy and it has worked. He only had that set back due to a blister this year.
by ICbirdfan on Aug 13, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't heard about Carp's
plans to change his mechanics….I think he’s sticking with what got him here (gulp)
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Woods mechanics were a bit worse than Carps...
He had a lot of whip, threw across the body and threw with a ton of effort at times.
I don’t know what Carp can do. Changing mechanics is not always a major change. You can mechanically change things and not havea major shake up.
Carp is fragile weather people want to admit it or not. He has an inury history and sorry once a pitcher hurts his arm he has a better chance to hurt it again. I am not tyring to be an a hole, but people think tommy john should have some 100% cure… It’s the human body and people return in different time frames.
by ICbirdfan on Aug 13, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
O'Leary has said he thinks Carpenter
ultimately may have to be a closer because he won’t be able to withstand the physical stress of being a starter…exactly like Wood. So there you go…$18 million or something a year to close. We don’t need to sign K-Rod. We already have him on the team!
Also, he correctly called the problems with Prior—and noted the frightening similarity between his delivery and Anthony Reyes’s. Bailing on Reyes may have just saved a lot of heartache down the road.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 13, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Put more simply
I’d like his opinions on Andrew Brackman and Tanner Scheppers…
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
by joker24 on Aug 13, 2008 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JSL confirms my concern
Matt: Chatmeister Extraordinaire:Please don’t take this as pessimistic, but…
The Cards are 7 games out of first, 4 games out of the WC, and closer to the Astros in the standings than the Cubs. Milwaukee’s schedule the rest of the way is pretty easy. I say all of this because I wonder: is it really worth it to rush Carpenter back at this point? I feel like while we have competed beyond expectations this year, we’re done. Any thought of shutting him down the rest of the season, or at least for a significant amount of time?
Joe Strauss: Hard to say without all the facts. The Cardinals released a statement shortly before midnight local time Tuesday saying Carpenter was suffering from a posterior strain of the shoulder. The statement hastened that there is no rotator cuff involvment. Funny, but Sunday the problem was described as a “strained triceps.” My information is that the triceps is around the humerus (upper arm), not the shoulder. The club did not provide further detail Tuesday night. Carpenter may clarify things today. The fact that he rejoined the team is encouraging. But the continuing intrigue suggests this may mean more than one missed start. A strain, by definition, is a tear. Yours is a legitimate question but one the organization apparently does not feel the need to answer.
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My uneducated guess in the dark
Hey it worked the first time for me let’s go for another whirl…”posterior shoulder” but not rotator cuff would almost have to be the deltoid and really it’s far from rare for a pitcher re-building stamina to have some trouble with fatigue in the delt.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
by joker24 on Aug 13, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't find that very humerus
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
by Mr Redbird on Aug 13, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so yeah
Jim Edmonds, 2008 MVP?
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
by SleepyCA on Aug 13, 2008 2:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
is that some kind of joke?
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 for 2 with another home run (his 16th in 178 AB's) and a BB, 3 RBI's
in the Cub’s ongoing route of the Braves. His OPS with the Cubs is now over 1.000.
if the Cubs win the division, he’ll deserve some votes.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
by SleepyCA on Aug 13, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you look at JEds OPS and his RZR as a Cub
he is the best CF in the NL
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Aug 13, 2008 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and while he might not be the League MVP
it’s hard not to think he’s not the cubs MVP. Who has had a bigger impact to that team than Jim Edmonds?
But I guess it boils down to your interpretation of what “MVP” means. Does it mean the “best” player in the league or the “most valuable’. Obviously, the league “MVP’ is awarded to the best player in the league…..
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Aug 13, 2008 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I mentioned this to somebody at work today, asking “Is Edmonds the Cubs MVP?” and he really couldn’t deny it. although I think it’s more like, Edmonds put them over the top to make them a truly great team. without him they might be just ahead of the brewcrew and in the thick of the wild card.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aggressive promotions
I think the swift upward movement of the top pitching prospects means something. Todd and Mortensen were drafted last year and are already in AAA. Don’t think the organization is inclined at all to be on the hook for any more long term deals right now. If a one year value drops in their lap next year I think they may jump all over that (again), but I’m pretty sure 3-4 year deals aren’t going to happen.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 13, 2008 3:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that is a mistake.....
If we’re talking about all players. I’m okay trying to fill the 4th and 5th rotation spots, and a bench spot or two that way, maybe a spot in the pen, but you can’t be that way with potential top of the rotation guys, stars, and bonafide closers. IMO.
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 13, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barton
Anybody else think he’ll be activated as soon as the Carpenter situation works itself out? We can’t send down a pitcher without knowing what Carp’s situation is. Once that is clear, and we get into that stretch of games with alot of off days, I think you’ll see Thompson or Garcia (or Carp if injured) go down, and Barton up.
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 13, 2008 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I could see
checking him out for “a day or two” stretching to Saturday, with Thompson or Garcia Memphis-bound to make room.
by liam on Aug 13, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah.
They’ll fart around “evaluating” him until the spot start on Friday by Garcia/Thompson. They’ll ship down whoever starts and activate Barton on Saturday.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 13, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
after last night
we’ve now lost 6 consecutive one-run games (2-6 since the break). our team now has a losing record in one-run games. The brewers, OTOH, are 24-10 in one-run games and have won all 3 of the one-run games they have had since the ASB, including 2 against us.
Frustrating.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
by SleepyCA on Aug 13, 2008 4:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bad luck this year
Up to this point, anyway. There’s still time for a run, but the prospects of one are looking worse and worse.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 13, 2008 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Time
for the 10 game winning streak, huh?
by saladdays on Aug 13, 2008 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or 10 run Sundays...
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Aug 13, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes Frustrating.
How much is luck. How much is our back-end bullpen issues vs. the stability Torres has provided Milw.
Also, how much of a factor is CC., by riding him hard and lessening the burden on the bullpen.
Impossible to really tell, but definitely factors.
by andujar on Aug 13, 2008 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
stressful season
we’ve been in 43 1 run games this year, right?
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep, 36 all of last year (16-20)
But then the Cards were blown out 38 times last year (that was brutal)...... not too bad this year.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 13, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
much better baseball this year. more interesting. although we need someone to pull an Ankiel like happened last August (hint: do it again, Rick, just don’t let them get to you)
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's worse?
Getting blown out or losing by 1 run? I guess ultimately it doesn’t matter, since they all equal exactly 1 “L” in the record book. But at least we’ve had some hope this year, and with hope you often get heartbroken.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Aug 13, 2008 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blown out is worse.... IMO
I can handle the one run losses, at least they are being competitive.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 13, 2008 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
blowouts make you lose interest in the game.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lineup per who else
Miles 6
Schumaker 8
Pujols 3
Ludwick 9
Ankiel 7
Glaus 5
LaRue 2
Looper 1
Kennedy 4
-B
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 5:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that's a gritty leadoff guy
score some runs, grind it out!
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mini Me at SS & AK at 2nd? again?
i’m going to hurt someone
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Aug 13, 2008 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
reaction to not scoring enough runs last night I guess
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
me likey this sucession
Pujols 3
Ludwick 9
Ankiel 7
Glaus 5
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just a little bit of power there
eh?
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 13, 2008 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too streaky.....
Pujols and Luddy are fine, but Rick and Glaus seem to be all-or-nothing guys that need to be on to help the team.
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 13, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
pujol's looked awful a couple nights ago with the three k's
by cardsrule15 on Aug 13, 2008 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade him!
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
by joker24 on Aug 13, 2008 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We won't get anything for him.
We will be trading low.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Aug 14, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when Tony pulls
shit like starting Mini Me at SS, it makes me yearn for the days when he’s not longer the manager. from his days running the A’s, i’ve been a fan of Tony’s. but shit like this just pisses me off to no end. i can’t honestly believe some one as smart & intelligent as Tony has a guy like Mini Me as his starting SS. it makes absolutely no sense.
i know i shouldn’t get mad. but damnit all to hell, i just can’t help it.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Aug 13, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miles should be at 2B
Lopez or Izturis should be starting at SS tonight. AK should not be playing.
by ICbirdfan on Aug 13, 2008 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whatever goodwil AK built up in my mind with his recent decent hitting...
...fluttered through the 5-hole on Sunday night.
I hate the guy!
by cardsfaninmass on Aug 13, 2008 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AK
Maybe he should play 2B and Miles should start at SS…......
Hell what’s funny is there is no perfect player in terms of plus defense and plus offense at the same time.
It’s a mess
by ICbirdfan on Aug 13, 2008 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i like ak
compared to felipe lopez
by cardsrule15 on Aug 13, 2008 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
God it's a tough call with the middle infield.
I don’t think there is technically a “best MI allignment”
by ICbirdfan on Aug 13, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
isn't miles batting like .315
am i missing something, why aren’t we starting him every game?
by cardsrule15 on Aug 13, 2008 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because
i still like miles and kennedy. their hitting is ten times cesar iztures, who i can’t stand and their good enough fielders.
I hate lopez so much i’m not even gonna involve him in the conversation.
by cardsrule15 on Aug 13, 2008 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at 2nd, we might as well, although even there he suffers in comparison to the others we have
not sure how many runs better AK’s defense is over Gritmaster Miles. Im guessing his bat outweighs AK at 2nd. Dont get me started at having gritmaster playing SS
by FunkeeC on Aug 13, 2008 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you think about it
our middle infield is so crappy it makes up for the depth in our outfield.
by cardsrule15 on Aug 13, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our middle infielders are so collectively bad
That whenever I see the lineup for the first time, I think “oh man, not Player X and Player Y again,” no matter which two of the four it is.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
by Mr Redbird on Aug 13, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's our offesnive lineup.
sans Molina…..
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Aug 13, 2008 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I am certainly offended
so I guess it works.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Aug 13, 2008 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Touche pussycat
nice play on words.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
by Tackle Box on Aug 13, 2008 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The decision on Lohse
Great piece on Kyle Lohse. 1st, I want to know why the difference in performance. Is Lohse going through the “dead arm” period. Is he injured or sore and taking one for the the team. 2nd, what are the numbers on the gun and does he have any “bite” on his breaking pitches. His pitches seem to be elevated, Why? Has his arm angle changed?
In short, it’s too early to re-sign him, and it’s too early to wave the white flag and trade him. Mo, Tony and Dave have at least some if not all of the answers to my questions. Right now we must wait and see and not rush into a bad decision.
by bigmotors on Aug 14, 2008 8:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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