savings account

leverage	pa	h	bb	so	avg	obp	slg
5.00 or higher	5	0	1	0	.000	.200	.000
4.00 or higher	18	2	2	3	.154	.267	.154
3.00 or higher	40	4	4	9	.121	.200	.212

Wainwirght and 09

First off, I think your last thought about Wainwright is probably spot on. They are keeping their options open, making sure he is stretched out to at least 50-70 pitches and has command on all his pitches. That allows him to go where they “need” him most. Though I think we would all vote for a rotation that includes WW and not Piniero.

All this also got me thinking of 09.
Right now here is our 09 rotation:

Carpenter, Wainwright, Wellemeyer (I think he has another Arb year left), Pineiro, Boggs/Garcia

This is what I would like to see as our pitching staff:

Carpenter, Wainwright, Wellemeyer, McClellan, Boggs/Garcia
Perez, Franklin, Kinney, Garcia/Boggs, TJ, Thompson, Springer (if you can resign him, Worrell or Motte if not)

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 8:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Lineup

BTW here are our position players under contract or control for next year (only using 40 man roster right now):

1B: Pujols
2B: Kennedy, Hoffpauir
3B: Glaus
SS: Ryan
OF: Ankiel(I think he has one year left, but not sure), Duncan, Barton, Ludwick, Mather, Schumaker, Stavinoha
C: Molina

There is room to grow there for sure and a still crowded outfield.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rasmus???

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 12, 2008 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not on 40 man roster....

I included that note for a reason

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, but

He will be on the 40-man roster next year

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 12, 2008 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

But I didnt have time to go through all of the “will be on 40 man roster next year” people so I limited it to the current 40 man, otherwise you include Barden, Green, a few others that should be protected from the Rule V draft. I just wanted to be lazy and not deal with it. Rasmus though is an obvious one that could/should be included, I just like not breaking my own rules.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

then I'll add a side note

Duncan.

I recognize the rules of 40 man roster, just want to point out that Duncan is by no means a sure thing to stick on that 40 man. But I do wish the big guy all the luck in the world….....

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

exactly, i hope he has a speedy recovery, that being said – the moment he has a speedy recovery he’s going to face some absurd wrath from the base I reckon. After this year and the end of last, the hiding of the back issues, and being the pitching coaches son…. it screams wanting to be in a different city.

and I couldn’t blame him.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure what you mean by "wrath from the base"?

I assume you mean “fan base”.

If you do, I think you’re wrong. IMO there’s no way the fans will jump Duncan. He’s sort of like a big pet to the fans. He gets a lot of slack and if he starts hitting home runs in spring training (or whenever he comes back) the fans will forget everything about the injuries. And frankly, I think you give the “fan base” too much credit. He MIGHT catch a little heat on the radio and I definately know he will around here, but I don’t foresee the fans at Busch doing anything but cheering the big dancing bear (especially if the power returns).

But ultimately, if he’s healthy, he needs to be in the American League. Or at the very lest a team where he can play first base. I think it’s the playing outfield which has gotten him hurt in the first place.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

base = “fan base here”

But ultimately, if he’s healthy, he needs to be in the American League. Or at the very lest a team where he can play first base. I think it’s the playing outfield which has gotten him hurt in the first place.

Agreed, on all accounts.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

as usual

I will say I want McClellan to stay in the bullpen. He’s the only constant there… and he seems to have adapted very well to the major leagues there. why mess with a good thing? I do understand having your best pitchers starting argument, but I think he is best suited to the bullpen as our high leverage guy. Plus, you don’t want to put Pineiro in the bullpen anyway (he is not just going to poof away)

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Similar thoughts.

Hopeful showings by McClellen and Perez + Carp hurt = hedge your bets with Wainwright?
I too hope the 48 pitches mean a return to starting. At this point any run to the playoffs will require good work by McClellen and Perez. Did Perez throw any/many sliders last night? I didn’t see the game. If he did how was their location and break?

To add to StLHugo’s thoughts on 2009: IMO they need to resign either Lohse or Looper for rotation stability. They take the ball every five days and give you a professional start.

by vinniefromjersey on Aug 12, 2008 8:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Agree on Lohse, not sure on Loop

I agree they should try to resign Lohse, though I doubt they would be able too. Looper though I am not fully sold on yet, it is only his 2nd year as a starter and while he has been solid he hasn’t be top of the line. If he is treated as your 4-5th starter that is fine and he would be great as that but this team has too many young arms that need to be tried out. When you have Carp, Waino, Welle as your “rocks” and have 2 young guys trying to work things out behind them it seems to work out best in my eyes. With Lohse you basically end up with a rotation of Carp, Waino, Lohse, Welle, KMac, I would hate to be the opposition.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see what you're saying

I just have concerns about Wellemeyer. I know this is the season that I should worry about Wellemeyer and if he makes it through in one piece, he should be fine for next year, but for some reason I worry about him much more than Looper in this conversion. Welley strikes me as fragile for some reason. I don’t know why, I just always worry somethings going to break or wear out.

Doesn’t mean i endorse signing Looper though. Especially since any signing would be 3 years minimum (I think that would be a really bad contract, although I guess he could always go back to the pen at some point and be usefull outside of the rotation) Although I do like Loops attitude and the fact the I have confidence when he takes the mound, he’ll pitch his ass off. Of course, his skill set isn’t exactly stellar, so even when he does pitch his ass off, sometimes it’s not enough. Then again, I get the same feeling with Wellemeyer. Tough kid, who seems determined. I like his style (what is that odd nickname he made up for himself again?).

Anyway, I’m not real sure where I’m going with this ramble. I feel Wellemeyer has much more upside (now I’ve turned into Hubbie Brown) but Looper is more dependable to be healthy. Oh well, take my ramble for what it’s worth (which isn’t much)......

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Welley nickname

Tadalian (Ta-dal-yen)
Comes from his name, Todd Allen.

Let's Go Yadi

by SHUCardinal on Aug 12, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Looper being 33 and having started the past two years will want around 6 per, I’d say. He’s in the end of a 3/13 contract when he came in as a reliever. He’s durable as hell and that’ll get him a decent amount of change. Nothing like Suppan money which is what Lohse will most likely get, but still.

It scares me because it feels as if we can get Looper like numbers from one of the young guns, but even a couple of them have had injury based concerns. Signing for stability is what gets us stuck in Joel like situations.

Welly should be considered fragile if the last two years are any consideration. I believe he’s under team control next year, but arb eligible. But man, that upside could be crazy good.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree about Looper

and I see where you compare him to the young guys and production. There just has to be something said for him being a known commodity. You absolutely know what you’re getting. But ultimately you’re right. He’s too old and not worth a 3 year deal even for 6M per. I’d be fine with a one year deal, but I’d personally drive to St. Louis and kick him in the seat of his pants if he settled for a one year deal.

He deserves to get a decent deal since he’s started for 2 years and has been relatively reliable. And as much as I like and respect him, I don’t want the Cardinals to give that deal to him.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly right

In a rotation the past couple years where nothing is constant except for change, he has been there day in, day out. You know he’s going to go out there give you six innings (whether he’s getting ripped or not), and come out and do it again in five days. You’re right, there’s something to be said for that.

Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!

by joshbaz12 on Aug 12, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Looper is as good as gone

next year. til then, kick some arse Loop!

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

3 years /21 mil

is what Marquis got. I’d expect Loper to get the same. That being said, I have a feeling he’s going to go to complete shit without Duncan around.

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 12, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

is duncan leaving?

that’s not a sure thing, right?

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I took that as in if Loop went to another team.

maybe I’m wrong. Although, I think expecting Duncan (and LaRussa) to be around for another 3 years (Loops contract) is highly unlikely.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've just heard that Duncan's contract runs out after this year...

...I wouldn’t expect him to bail on TLR, but I’ve heard speculation that it’s possible…

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, not a sure thing at all.

‘d be surprised if he does. I’m saying if Looper goes to another team, I just can’t see him having his (relative) success..

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 12, 2008 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the only thing about Looper

is that he’s old enough to bring with him things learned, and while I’m aware that Jason got 3/21… don’t look for Looper to get the same, unless for some reason someone is really in dire straits.

Also to add, what may help him is getting him to an even bigger baseball park, as HR has been a large concern of his abilities.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marquis had two things going for him

First, that year was a pitchers dream market. Guys like Suppan, Meche and Marquis were getting much richer deals than anyone expected. Second, at the time the cubs were desperate for innings eaters and were handing out big contracts like they grew on trees.

Looper doesn’t quite have the track record Marquis had although that deal does average out to 7 per. But when you see the breakdown, it goes all goofy (4.75M, 6.375M, 9.875M). And people think Pineiro’s deal is back-loaded. How would you like to be paying almost 10MM per to a 5th starter who’s been left off of 3 consecutive playoff rosters?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think back loading contracts is the dumbest thing MLB does, by far.

1.) Quality is worse towards the end, unless you’re planning for players in their prime, which can be hard to determine.

2.) Unloading a contract when you want to is harder to do

3.) You have no idea what the market is going to represent more than 2 years out, from players that can be aquired to finances within your own team.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

backloading option years does make a little sense, but larger buy outs would slow those as well, I think.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's dumb for the teams

but great for the players and ultimately you are trying to entice a player to play for your team.

If you were a pitcher and were getting offers from two teams, with Team A offereing 4M, 6M, 9M and team B offering 9M, 6M, 4M; which would you choose?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why not just 7 mil a year?

I don’t understand the point of backloading contracts as severely as say marquis’ or Soriano’s unless that money is going to be deferred until their playing days are over.

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 12, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

because it gives the player security

when he might not be at his best.

Plus it give the player confidence that he will not be grossly underpaid near the end of his contract in regards to other players.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Which you can repair in the extension/FA market, should that occur anyways.

When you’re talking about that kind of money and during 3-7 years of contract, I don’t think security would really play a part.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They backload contracts because

towards the end of the contract even though the money the club is paying out is more, the money they saved in the early years from not paying the player benefits the club. I say this because they can use the money not paid out to help fund whatever projects they want to, or even invest the money they didn’t have to pay the player. Also at the end of a players contract the money is worth less because of inflation.

by madeintaiwan on Aug 12, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i was just about to say something about inflation

although most contracts are only for a few years… i wonder how big an effect inflation has on the kind of contract we’re talking about?

by mattybobo on Aug 12, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

inflation wouldn't have

that kind of effect, over 3 years and that kind of money? Not in the USA, even with the shit economy.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You still realize

Any way club can save money in the long run is what they will do

by madeintaiwan on Aug 12, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My point is that it's false money

I may dig into it during the off season if I have the time, but I would bet that value per dollar you lose quite a bit with backlog contracts.

If you knew that a stock may overperform in the near term, but will have a 80% chance of losing value in a few years, would you buy it under the notion that you have to keep it that long, or give the stock away (dfa), or sell it at a lower value than the current value (injury, under performing). Of course not.

The only thing that backloading allows is if you have a now concern that pops up, but I’d rather have that chance knowing full well what my finances were, than to gamble down the road.

Saving money is a smoke and mirrors, that I’m pretty confident about.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

but it's all about being more attractive to the player you're courting

If you can guarantee he’s not going to be grossly underpaid in regards to his position, then you’re going to be more attractive to the player.

The players association has a lot of power still in regards to salary and contracts.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's inflation and opportunity cost

From a club’s perspective, money you don’t have to spend today is always better. Every dollar you don’t have to spend can be invested so if you can save paying a player one dollar until next year, you can take that $1 and put invest, hopefully make 6-8% on it and when you have to pay it out next year, you pay out the $1 you owe the player and pocket the $0.06-$0.08 cents. Multiply this by a few million and you’ve got something.

by birdo rojo on Aug 12, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What does it matter?

Unless you dont want to be traded it shouldn’t matter to you. The second is a more likely to be traded option. Though I guess it does affect FA arbitration since they take previous years salary into account. Personally I like just averaging the price over the life of the contract.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Team B of course - Time value of money

by njnick on Aug 12, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Purely financial perspective, it is a lot better to get 9, 6, 4

Considering the time value of money it’s worth a lot more to get the big bucks up front.

Backloaded is worth $15.36 today vs. $16.15 for the front loaded. An even distribution is worth $15,75.

by birdo rojo on Aug 12, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

exactly

it benefits both teams short term and long term.

and should it be a losing proposition, you should be able to have a better chance of getting out when it’s less costly, not more

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and if it’s a winning proposition, but you’re in a sell mode, then that contract by itself may be worth an upgrade in prospect. Because you’re not handcuffing the team accepting it.

Frontloading a contract is smart money, no matter how you spin it.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh wait - we're disagreeing 100%

The team would always want to backload the contract and the player would want it frontloaded.

The chance to dump a bad contract that is backloaded is easily answered by giving the team picking up the player some of the cash made from structuring the lower payments up front.

by birdo rojo on Aug 12, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it’s getting and it’ll get harder and harder to shift those large contracts to hungry teams as time goes on, the market is showing that.

and when you’re talking about 3-7 years, that money that you’re making by holding onto the cash will most likely not help when you’re looking at buying a chunk of millions.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're completely ignoring the fact that you PAY for it up front

Take a contract structured 7-10-13 for Player A vs. Player B 13-10-7. Say in year three you decide you want to trade both players. Well you simply eat 6 million on Player A to make it equivalent to the 7 million Player B is getting. You’ve now paid each player 23 million dollars. Except the structure on that payment was 7-10-6 for Player A vs. 13-10-0 for Player B.

Player A’s net present value: 21.04
Player B’s net present value: 22.09

You’ve saved yourself a million dollars by doing nothing.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Aug 12, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure it's more attractive to the team

but what industry pays it’s employees less each year? If your job did that, you be looking for another job. Especially when salaries around you are going up.

You need to stop looking at this from a team standpoint because the player isn’t forced to sign the only deal that comes his way, especially if the player is in any way in demand. The players still hold the leverage when it comes to salaries.

And why would it be more beneficial to get the money up front? The contract is guaranteed and it’s not like the “company” is going to go out of business and not pay you.

The NFL is a different story. Players should go for big first years and signing bonuses because nothing is guaranteed. Baseball is completely different.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t know about anyone else, but I would take 4-6 years of min salary “interning” and if I did well enough I’d take an upfront salary that was 20-40 times that min. the first year and let it drop over 3-7 years.

ours goes up due to inflation, economics, competition across a wide range of job opportunities (most cases you’re not locked into one job, as you are in baseball), and frankly in most jobs your value to the company grows as time goes by. experience isn’t the biggest asset in baseball, no matter what espn and the like says.

because if you have the money upfront than you have control of your own assets in a clearer fashion. you control your own destiny.

also if you overperform you may have the slight advantage to be on a contending team if your team is struggling do to “sell now” policies, and if not, then you’re in the hunt for oct play.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

but the whole thing is guaranteed

you own all your assets no matter what. and I don’t understand the “control your own destiny”. unless you have a no-trade clause, you don’t control your own destiny.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

because the bulk of the money is in your hands at the start of the contract, not end.

I’m aware the whole shebang is guaranteed, I’m aware this isn’t the NFL.

You own all of your own assets in the end, it’s how you get those assets and when. That’s the current theme of the debate.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's more beneficial to get the money

up front b/c of the time value of money. If a person saves the excess received in year 1 and gets a return greater than the rate of inflation - an average CD? - that person is better off. I don’t really think it’d take too much convincing to get a player to go for it.

by chuckb on Aug 12, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would choose the

offer from Team B, if both teams are comparable and I want to play for each of them equally.

Better yet, why WOULDN’T you want to make more money earlier? You can invest that money after year one, make 10-12% on that cash in the market, and be showing a 40% return on that first year’s deal by the end of the contract. It’s not the NFL, so all of that money is guaranteed anyway—they can’t cut me and take away the $4 million by the final year. All things considered, I’d much rather have my high $$$ year’s up front and my low $$$ years late.

The Brett Favre saga provides a great example of this. The Packers offered him $20 million over 10 years to stay home, but he was under contract for $12 million a year. People were saying if it was truly about money he’d take the $20 million. That’s wrong—if it was truly about money he’d come back and sit on the bench and make $12 million for a year and then retire again. That $12 million now will be worth much more than the $20 million at $2 million per year for 10 years at the end of 10 years. Favre knew they wouldn’t cut him and let him sign with a team like Minnesota, so he had things in his favor.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 12, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

good points

and I generally agree.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Backloading

Follows the first rule of finance:

A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow.

Since the team knows that, generally, salaries go up each year for certain types of players, and that there is a ton of money flowing into baseball over the last 4-5 years, it makes sense to sign a guy to a backloaded deal. The contract will increase value, but so will the cost of comparable players, so by the end of the deal the contract can sometimes look favorable when compared with the market for similar players. Most backloaded deals make a lot of sense for the team since they can financially spread the player’s deal out and pay less for him early in the contract, thus, they can invest in other entities (players, merchandising, advertising, money markets, etc.) to make money on the money they are saving from payroll.

When you look at it from purely a salary standpoint they don’t make sense, but when you look at the overall business of each baseball club, it makes more sense to pay a player less early and more late financially, ESPECIALLY considering the MLB revenue sharing agreement.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 12, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. However, if players are considered investments that depreciate over time, it’s not the case. In my opinion anyways.

Salaries do go up year to year in general, but when you look at most backload contracts it’s heavily overestimating the amount of money a replacement player would most likely cost, depreciation considered. So they’re deferring the cost on an asset that will depreciate. It’s a dangerous game to play if you’re trying to stay above the depreciation.

I’m not saying all contracts are bad if they’re backload. If you’re going into the prime it may make sense.

However, I think as a team concept you’re handcuffing yourself down the road as you have no idea what the market will be (what if there is 9 .800 plus OPS 2nd basemen 3 years out, and the 2nd baseman that you signed that was .800 plus OPS this year, is .600 OPS 3 years from now).

When you backload you’re trying to guess a lot of variables, it’s hard to win that way. When you frontload a contract you’re aware of the players abilities (as well as you can), your market’s current condition, viability and the like. Things you can’t possibly know 3 years down the road, even though you could guess.

if you were to take the same approach to other investments as they do with ballplayers, it doesn’t make much sense. I contend that ball players are more related to investments than I do assets you can overprice and shift to other teams down the road. Matter in fact I think that backloading contracts is one of the core reasons that ticket prices go up well and beyond inflationary based pricing.

I’m also an incentive laden contract freak, and neither (to the degree of what I’m thinking) incentive contracts nor front loading is issues that have been tried and tested, so it’s hard to argue things I have no true foundation to point to.

I can’t take the merchandising argument as I think there will be a stronger influx early than late, but I’ll highly agree that the revenue sharing policy makes my concept very hard to argue for.

Hate doing these convos in day threads as they’ll be dropped by tomorrow, but this is the stuff I enjoy typing about.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The counter argument

What I feel is missing from your equation is simply the time value of money. Lets just assume that whatever money the billionaire owner doesn’t spend on the team each year is invested elsewhere and the owner is making 6% on that money.

Also assume the owner has three options for a 3 year $18 million contract, front loaded – 10/5/3 per year, neutral 6/6/6 per year, or back loaded 3/5/10 per year.

Using present day money the front loaded contract will cost the owner $17.39 million because the later $5 and $3 million cost less because he is getting a return on the money while it is still in his pocket.

The neutral contract would cost the owner $17.0 million, and the back loaded contract would cost the owner $16.62 million. So if the owner back loads a 3 year $18 million contract instead of front loading it he conservatively saves himself $770,000. This is for just a three year contract the effect will be amplified the long the contract is. If you have the option, and there isn’t any interest it is always better to pay later, or be paid sooner fromt he players perspective.

jwilson

by taguchi on Aug 12, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m aware, and said as much, just as fourstick did as money in hand today is worth more tomorrow. I get that.

However, you accept more as a liability from an investment point of view.

Handcuff contracts are the norm as of late, because the player over depreciates. You can’t move them because they’re owed so much that if you add them and a replacement the cost would be astronomical. Yes you can accept sunk cost, but very few teams do.

Handcuff contracts kill any trade value, and the trade value if you’re wanting to sale/trade a player has a lot more value if the depreciation in his skillset correlates with the cost.

In another way, you’re trading the 6% away to the player so you can be in a position to get a correlated value from your player based on his salary. In doing so you allow yourself some breathing room down the road should that value depreciate more than you like/were expecting.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sliders

all fastballs to Uggla (BB) and Helms (3-0 count to K looking)

Two sliders to start out Ross, maybe one later in the AB. I don’t recall Ross swinging at them. The slider looked average. Tried to throw it low and outside. The second was way outside.

by andujar on Aug 12, 2008 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks.

by vinniefromjersey on Aug 12, 2008 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He fouled one off

Ross fouled one off, there were 3 that AB. And they didn’t look “average” to me. They moved a lot, first one nailed the corner and the second was way outside but they were effective because the third pitch was a fastball up that he couldn’t catch up too and barely fouled off.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The one that was fouled off

Was struck pretty solidly—down the right field line, IIRC. Maybe I’m thinking of a different batter, but during the last AB of the game, I remember hearing Al say “here comes the slider,” and seeing a pitch with a little hump in it that was stroked down the right field line foul.

by Ray Lankford on Aug 12, 2008 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

average

By average, I didn’t mean they looked poor. But they didn’t look like a Lidge or vintage Unit slider.

Fox gun had fastballs at 95-97 and slider at 89 (from memory, did the FB touch 98?)

by andujar on Aug 12, 2008 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, it did a couple times

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree on Lohse.

I’ve heard he wants 4 Yrs., 48mil+. Not worth it. Looper, on the other hand, should come cheaper, and has made himself into a better starter than he was a reliever. The names on the prospective rotation for 2009 have missed a lot of starts. There is value in being available. They might be able to afford Looper if they move soon. He also of course has experience relieving.

by vinniefromjersey on Aug 12, 2008 9:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

12 mil per

is about market price for a starting pitcher like Lohse, heck it might even be below market price. Free agent starting pitchers are expensive and I think he brings much more to the table than any of our rookies.

By “not worth it”, do you mean he would be overpaid or is there a better/cheaper alternative that would give you what Lohse gives you?

Personally, I’d jump at the opportunity to sign him to a 4/48M deal. You would have a staff of Carpenter, Wainwright, Lohse, Wellemeyer and Piniero/Garcia. That’s a hell of a rotation.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

also to add, three of those + garcia would be long term locks. 2012 would be carps option year if I recall correctly, adam’s first option year as well.

Holy shit that looks sexy just thinking about it. It does chip into the payroll opening we have next year quite a bit though.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

but they don't need a whole heck of a lot in the field

and what they really need (shortstop) isn’t really available. But, ultimately it all comes down to pitching. and with Carpenter’s health history (and my concerns about Welley), I don’t think you can have a deep enough rotation.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wellemeyer doesn't have a high enough profile apparently

to get reviewed by Chris O’Leary. But my guess is he’s got an “inverted W.” (Let’s call it an “M,” shall we.) In other words, he’s ripe for an injury. He throws hard and isn’t that beefy. That’s probably why he looks “fragile.” Yeah, I think you’re right.

The good news is that Lance Lynn has great mechanics. I suppose he’s probably got another year in the minors. Then there’s Jess Todd. 2009 is a band-aid year for the rotation, I think. They need another one-year wonder like Lohse before the farm can kick in some quality starters.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Honeslty, I only like Garcia

Todd, I’m holding out hope on. But the rest doesn’t thrill me much. And to clarify, I’m only talking about the guys that will be ready next year at some point. I just see a bunch of 5th starters and eventual bullpen/spot starter guys.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True

what we need isn’t avail. However, we’re still going to be in the market for both MI at the current moment. Lopez, Miles, Iz are all FA at the end of this year as far as I know, Kennedy is on his last year and will probably hang around because of the lack of returning players, Ryan while great with a glove has issues with a bat..

We need something, just that something isn’t really hanging around. Agreed on the pitching, but if you include the farm and some seasoning, we may be pretty decently stocked in the rotation

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

MI

I just don’t want them to give out another Kennedy contract. It’s one thing to fill the need, but as we’ve all seen, you can have bad contracts at 2nd base too.

I don’t know what the solution is. Probably trading from outfield depth is most logical, but I’m not sure what the price tag would be for a middle infielder. I wouldn’t mind a vet who’s got one more year on his contract who can hit a little and wouldn’t kill the defense. And after I wrote that, the name Felipe Lopez came to mind. I guess we’ll have to see how he does the rest of the year. But he could probably be had on a one year deal. He’d only cost money and would save the outfielder depth for acquiring another reliever. Julio Lugo comes to mind also, but he’s got 2 years left and his power seems to have gone away.

Anyway, I’m just thinking out loud again. Just trying to think of reasonably priced shortstops who wouldn’t kill you in either cost or their performance.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Neither do I, but I’d absorb one if we traded into it and it was a known, and acceptable commodity.

Lopez has a lot to prove and should be cheap should there be some reason for his loss of abilities.

Lugo isn’t worth much, he’s a combination of Lopez and Iz. Watched him quite a bit last year while working in the Boston market. Seen so many plays where he wouldn’t even run to first when the ball is on the ground, and is error prone. Not good for a guy with speed.

If Skip is still taking practice balls at 2nd, he’d clear a lot of issues if he can make an off season/ST jump to that position. Don’t know if that’s a system’s idea.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heh

I thought they were gonna try to play skip at second but put him in the outfield because he was no good at fielding ground balls? But I guess if he keeps practicing…..

by madeintaiwan on Aug 12, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is that why Lopez plays in the OF?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He’s been taking practice balls during the season. He already had the OF job.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

is that true?

I’ve been kind of out of it the last month, so forgive me, but I know that some of us here have been harping for the last year or so that he needs to take ground balls, but is he really doing it? Where did you hear this?

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 12, 2008 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he's been doing it all year

plus I believe Hardcore Legend remarked that Skip was taking groundballs during BP when he saw them in Pittsburgh.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is that

the Hardcore Legend sign I see in the sky?!?

If only he was still with us.

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 12, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+ so much

you are missed, HL, you. are. missed.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 12, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

best. poster. ever.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've seen it a couple of times this year

but not every game I’ve been to, it’s kinda hit and miss and I didn’t check if there was a correlation with issues with the team or not.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Forgot about Skip

But it doesn’t change the fact he still can’t hit lefties. Therefor he’s nothing but a platoon player.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True, but a 2b that clears some OF space and can hit righties as well as he does, and considering how young he is he may get better with the lefties as time goes on. Overall the numbers will be very decent against other MI’s we’ve had in the past.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's not exacly young

He’ll be 29 opening day 2009.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

in ML experience

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hey, i'm 33 with 0 years mlb experience

and am willing to change positions….................................

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

me too

she won’t let me though!

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That sucks

or maybe it doesn’t…....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0PIdWdw15U

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

it’s ok, my bday is in oct

yay me

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wish i were born in October

the greatest month of all months.

Fall weather, Halloween, and the PLAYOFFS!!!!!!!!!!

The Holy Trinity!

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

1st Mark's b-day

barely in, if you add the time, really barely in.

and it’s not too bad, though this will be the first year in the past 7 I’ve been in the country on my birthday, work’s been mean.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

mark = bigmac

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I even gave you time to clarify that statement

and I’m still confused. I get that Mac’s birthday is Oct. 1, but I’m not sure why i care and how it classifies as being “barely in”? And what “time” am I adding?

I think you’ve spent too much time out of country.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We were talking about Oct being a sports month, I was born on the first at 12.13 am. So barely in.

Since it was sports related, Mark’s all I got

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and probably

when you get into cricket because baseball is lacking, it gets pretty hairy.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

WCBW?

Please, for my sanity and yours, stay in this country for an extended period of time.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wcbw?

lol.

I lived in Aussie for quite a few years, no baseball. Queens country, thus cricket.

and I plan to. Though it doesn’t stop me from bouncing all over the U.S.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Aussie Aussie Aussie!!!

Oye Oye Oye!!!

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

haha

i was born at the other extreme- 11 PM-ish on halloween (my mom was trying to make it to 1 Nov so that I wouldn’t be a “halloween baby”, which apparently has stigma in german culture; her mom was a first-generation immigrant and told her mean stories).

Anyway, between the two of us, we have october bracketed ;)

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 12, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol, no joke

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was

On Friday the 13th to boot!

by saladdays on Aug 12, 2008 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And...

the opening of Illinois Bow season for whitetail.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 12, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Orlando Hudson

With Kennedy still under contract, it is highly unlikely that we would make such an acquisition since his salary, even if DFA’d, would make for a very, very expensive second baseman. However, Hudson’s wrist injury might make him a bit more affordable. He is a fielding whiz (not to be confused with Wiz-ard), gets on-base, and has some pop. His OPS is usually about .800, which is leaps and bounds better than what we’ve been forced to accept over the Kennedy/Miles tenure of .710 or lower. Also, Hudson is entering his age 31 season and would likely demand at least a 4-year deal. Add to that our luck with the last second baseman signed heading into his age 31 season, and we might not want to pursue Hudson.

I suppose that is the long way of saying that we should brace ourselves for at least one more year of the AK/Grit tandem at second.

The Schuman at second? That’s intriguing. Do tell…

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wrist injuries scare me

And there’s nothing more that screws up a swing (and saps power) than a wrist injury. IMO, Hudson just became a HUGE gamble.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

Also when D-Lee came back from the wrist injury it took him awhile to get back on track.

by madeintaiwan on Aug 12, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yup

although IMO Lee simply regressed to his career numbers. His first year or so with the cubbies was an aberration. But he did struggle mightily once he came back.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

God

I hate the cubs

by madeintaiwan on Aug 12, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perfect

Spivey, Grudz, AK. Sounds like Hudson would fit our pattern. :)

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I stepped outside my comfort zone with that emoticon

I’m really regretting it.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whats wrong with Grudz?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nothing

He was coming off of an injury-plagued tenure with the Cubs, so, when signed, was considered a gamble.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ah, i see

yeah, you’re right then.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I miss

Grudzy….

by madeintaiwan on Aug 12, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think

that there is a single player more overrated on this site than Grudz. He’s a glorified Aaron Miles.

by stl522 on Aug 12, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he probably is overratted here but...

his defense was head and shoulders above Miles’ especially his arm and he did have a better career OPS+ 90 to 76

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 12, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I beg to differ

For starters, Grudz is a far superior defensive player. A former SS, he combines range with a strong arm, making him an ideal fit for Duncan’s democratic “pitch-to-contact” philosophy. His RZR ranges from .830 to .850 while Miles’s RZR ranges from .791 to .816. Even after knee surgery, Grudz is a better defensive player.

And nomar just covered the OPS+.

He is not a glorified Aaron Miles. Grudz is a better all-around player than Aaron Miles. This season, Miles is having a career year in terms of both OBP and SLG, yet it is only equal to an average season from Grudz.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's the reason why

we didn’t end up with Grudz in 2005, and he’s outperformed what we would have paid him in each year since, while grossly outperforming all the players that the Cardinals have played in that spot as well.

This team doesn’t have a lot of needs, but MI is a glaring one, and putting up some decent money for a good veteran player such as Orlando Hudson is a good idea.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 12, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where did you hear that?

Because to my knowledge, there have been no discussions about an extension whatsoever.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

4/48?

I wouldn’t give Lohse 4 and 48—no way. He’s a Jeff Suppan-type. In fact, Suppan’s his #1 comp and he’ll be 30 in December. We’ll be paying for his age 30, 31, 32, and 33 years at $12 M per. He’s replaceable by Garcia or Todd or maybe Boggs. We should have Carp, Wainwright, Wellemeyer, and Pineiro. It’s hard to count on Carp and Wellemeyer to make 30+ starts but we have depth in the minors to be able to help out when needed. The Carp ($16 or so million) and Pineiro ($8 M) signings pretty much preclude spending ANOTHER $12 M on a #3 or #4 starter. The team simply doesn’t have room in the budget to spend $12 M on Lohse, to pay for salary increases for Wainwright, Ludwick, and Ankiel, AND find middle infield and relief help. There are too many holes to fill to spend that much money on a starter if we’re only getting a Jeff Suppan-type. Besides, though Lohse has been very good this year, I don’t particularly want to be paying him $12 M in his age 32 and 33 years. Three years/$30 M, though I would oppose it, is worth considering. 4 and $48 should absolutely be a non-starter. If he comes to the team w/ that, we should tell him “Thank you for your time this year. We wish you the best of luck w/ the rest of your career.”

by chuckb on Aug 12, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

2/28

I wouldn’t mind a 2/28 deal, lots of money but short term. I just highly doubt Lohse would go for that.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ludwick, Ankiel pay increases plus MIF

Salary increase for Wainwright? Didn’t we just extend him through 2011?

3-year/$30M contract is, in my mind a way to hedge our bets on Carp the the Colonel’s health with a guy who is going to throw 190 to 200 innings per year and has had no healthy problems whatsoever.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

we did just extend Wainwright

and his salary jumps from 500K to $2.6 M next year. After that, it’s $4.65, $6.5 and then $9 M and $12 M options.

by chuckb on Aug 12, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

10M per

will NOT be enough to sign Lohse.

I think people are underestimating the cost of starting pitching, especially starting pitching that has a track record of never being hurt.

And I’m sorry HC, i just don’t have the same zeal you do for Mitch Boggs and Jess Todd. Granted, I like Todd, but he’s still about a year away at best. But there’s absolutely no guarantee with him. And IMO, he’s much more of a wild card than anything. Seems to be putting up great numbers with not so great stuff. Let’s see how he fares at AAA before we compare him to Kyle Lohse.

And I do like Garcia too. I’ll give you that one.

And I not married to a 4 year deal for Lohse (I’d be much happier with 3 years), but I think 12M per is about what he’ll get and is worth.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

I actually think Boras will start out asking for 5/60.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 12, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

More likely

He’ll start at 6/84 to see if anyone bites on it….. then work down from there.

Lohse made 3 mil last year, 4 mil this year and because of a one year upswing…. he get’s a 300%+ raise?..... I would pass on this.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 12, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would too

Considering his career era is 4.71. This is actually his first year under a 4.00 era- that is if he stays under 4.00 I just don’t see him being worth that kind of money.

by 916baller on Aug 12, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if you're looking for guarantees,

you’re not going to find them. Think Lohse is a guarantee? Sign him to a 4 year, $48 M contract and the only things that are guaranteed is that you’ll be paying him $48 M over 4 years and that he’ll be 33 in the last year of that contract. I just wholeheartedly reject the notion that we need to pay lots of money for mediocre “veterans” b/c young people like Todd and Boggs are unproven. They’re not guaranteed but neither is Lohse and if Todd or Boggs fail, you’re not stuck w/ a $48 M contract. If one of the two fails, you’ve got the other or Mortensen or, who knows, maybe Ottavino will become a possibility.

by chuckb on Aug 12, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wait...

We’re going to be paying more for Ankiel and Ludwick next season, but Wainwright isn’t eligible for arbitration since he signed a deal that increases his salary slowly. The Molina signing is also looking like an intelligent deal since his arb number would definitely be higher than what we’ll pay him over the next couple of seasons. We have a lot of club friendly contracts, and only two bad ones currently (Carpenter, because of injury, and Piniero, because of performance).

Do we really need help in the pen? This club has a ton of arms in the minors that could easily help in the pen next year without making a single big free agent signing, although the team probably needs a LOOGY, since that is the one thing the minors can’t produce soon. They could go after a vet like Guadardo or someone similar (or re-sign Villone) and pay them something close to what Springer is making this season, which isn’t a terribly ridiculous amount. If the injured pitchers from the pen the last two years return, the pool looks like this next year:

LR: Thompson, Boggs, Piniero, Garcia (whoever isn’t in the rotation falls into these first two slots)
MR: Kinney, Todd, Mortenson, Worrell, Franklin
LOOGY: Ty. Johnson
SU: McClellan, Motte
CL: Perez

You clear off the $8M that Izzy made this year, spend what Springer is currently making on a veteran LOOGY, and the bullpen becomes cheaper, more effective, and nearly all of those guys are cheap and under club control for a few years. There’s a giant hole to fill in the middle infield, but that doesn’t mean that the team couldn’t go out and spend $12 – $15 million on a pitcher and stay near the budget of $105M – $110M for 2009. I’m not sure that Lohse is the guy, but I do believe the team can afford to fill a pitching need. Hell, maybe they can fill a pitching need and deal some pitching and outfield prospects for a middle infielder—I think it would be easier to get a quality one through trade than via free agency.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 12, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder what Fuentes will be making

I know he’s not as dominant, but he could play the role of the “Lefty McClellan” - that is, he could face righties and lefties and get them out, or just face a lefty or two. Whatever. Additionally, he’d be able to step in if Perez got hurt/faltered…that’s not to say McClellan couldn’t, but TLR would be more inclined to do it with Fuentes, who has experience. I think we’ve all seen what happens when the closer dies and there are no more good options - I don’t want to ever see Franklin in the 9th in 2009.

In any case, he’ll probably be out of our price range. I just think his versatility and left-handedness is a good fit in a TLR bullpen.

by mojowo11 on Aug 12, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Duncan pushed for increase in pitch count

No outward indications that they are hedging their bets depending on Carp’s condition. In fact, the P-D he moved toward his “planned late-inning role in the Cardinals’ bullpen.” When will this silliness end?

At pitching coach Dave Duncan’s urging, the Cardinals upped Wainwright’s pitch count from the planned 25. Duncan said it was “to give him a better chance to work on all of his pitches.” In his first rehab start Friday, Wainwright had to throw his curveball at odd counts just to get a few in before he ran out of pitches on his 25 limit.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 9:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Surely TLR knows Perez's name?

From the wrap-up on last night’s game:

We had some real heroes. McClellan pitched out of a horrific inning. Young pitcher (Perez) stumbled a bit.

(Yes, I’m reading VEB and the P-D simultaneously to begin my day. I love summer.)

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 9:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He knew it enough

To tell Mo not to trade him before the deadline.

by Evilfrog on Aug 12, 2008 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just found it funny

I also envisioned this conversation in the visiting manager’s office at Turner Field.

Mo: “Tony, I can trade Perez—”

TLR: “Who?”

Mo: “Young pitcher.”

TLR: “Ohhhh. Yes, Young Pitcher. His name is Perez? Really? Is he related to Old Pinch Hitter?”

Mo: “As far as I know, no, he is not related to Eduardo.”

TLR: “Don’t trade Young Pitcher. If Izzy and Franklin fail five to ten more times, I might think about using him in the 9th.”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Young Pitcher

Sounds like his Native American name. What tribe was in south Florida? Still Seminoles?

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 12, 2008 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

HA!

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We have a third new nickname in one week.

That could be a record.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure a Hurricane wants to be called a seminole.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Aug 12, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Touche

Wasn’t thinking of calling him a Seminole, just wondering aloud which tribe inhabited the South Florida area

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 12, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you got a good point

I have no Idea if Tony actually knew his name when he said that. Good thing Mo knew he wasn’t talking about Boggs or Parisi.

by Evilfrog on Aug 12, 2008 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right. The exact quote from the P-D was

“Don’t trade that guy.” :)

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

why did he have to take a shot at him?

He always defended izzy and frank after they blew games…how about giving the kid credit for striking out two straight hitters?

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A shot?

Seriously? Did you read the very next sentence in the article?

“Mostly the catcher just had a huge game.”

Was that a shot at Molina?

Come on, now.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 12, 2008 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He said Perez "stumbled a bit"

Isn’t that a shot?

Why focus on the negative??

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That wasn't a shot

He doesn’t want to overly praise rookies, that is his style. So instead he says basically “he got the job done, but still had to work out of a jam he made” don’t overreact at it.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I sure hope Perez

Isn’t that sensitive that he considers his manager saying he “stumbled a bit” when he starts off closing by throwing 6 balls out of his first 9.

by Evilfrog on Aug 12, 2008 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope he isn't sensitive too

but why test him?

I thought the goal is to slowly “Groom” them; to not put too much pressure on them….

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tony doesn't want to declare Perez the closer

Because he doesn’t want the P-D to write 30 articals on it and put unnecessary pressure on Perez. He is getting his shot right now. He has collected 2 saves and pitched the 9th against the best offense in the leauge in a tie game. Tony is putting him out in pressure situations.

To think that he is taking a shot for saying that he struggled – when he struggled, (read the gameday thread, people here were saying worse) is silly. I seriously doubt if anyone in the Club house feels that is a shot.

by Evilfrog on Aug 12, 2008 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK

But, I’m not saying he should declare him closer…but maybe say, “he stumbled a bit, but then bounced back well”.

Is this part of his macho “prove yourself” mantra? Rookies will have to take public statements of struggle in the press? While his “vets” (izzy, frankin) get quizzical praise when they blow games?

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

probably too little too late

When the time comes for me to not be bothered by losing that is when I know it is time to retire my fandom

by ANDYAK47 on Aug 12, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+10

I don’t see Perez being that sensitive, he’ll want those 6 balls back to prove instead.

The only “reaction” seems to be on a blog.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's sorta a compliment

He’s giving him credit for righting himself after struggling to start the inning. I think you’re reading too much in to it.

At least that’s how i read it.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think "the shot" was more of saying he stumbled

Not in not saying his name

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 12, 2008 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh, I see the confusion now

yes, the “shot” was claiming he stumbled, when he impressively struck out two straight hitters

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

both were shots

intended to make the point that he wants Wainwright in the closer’s spot.

by chuckb on Aug 12, 2008 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How good is KMac? wow, what he did was impressive....

He is almost too important to be a closer. I just like his make up.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 12, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

most importantly I like his ability... He has strike out pitches

by ICbirdfan on Aug 12, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I actually agree

He’s best where he is, moving around in the high-leverage situations. It’d be best if they’d give him the ninth if it was a one-run game, but they won’t. Even so, I’d rather see him protecting 1-2 run leads in the 7th-8th than protecting 3-run leads in the 9th.

by mojowo11 on Aug 12, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm more than happy with Mac where he is and Perez in the 9th.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

that combo nearly makes me drool in anticipation for ‘09

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like it for the rest of 08

K’Mac in the highest leverage situations and Perez closing is what i’d prefer.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Aug 12, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I do too

but I’m not going to think that it’s going to happen though.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Correct me if I'm wrong,

but haven’t I read that Kyle McClellan is going to be shifted to the rotation next year?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not sure

hope not

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hope so

he was a starter before and like Wainwright was given a spot in the pen for his rookie year. I would much rather see him jump into the rotation than stay in the pen, it is the same argument we have right now with Wainwright, where is he best utilized. There has been speculation and talk from everyone that he might be in the rotation but I think it is more likely he comes to Spring Training as a starter and fights to win a spot, if he doesn’t then he joins the pen.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hasn't he been pitching from the bullpen

for quite some time now?

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not really

here is his minor league BR page: http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=24352

KMac pitched in the rotation for most of his appearances in 05 (8 starts, 17 games), then he got injured in 06 after just 3 starts. 07 he was a reliever as part of the rehab, but the intention was to bring him back as a starter this season. Until he impressed people in ST.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Waino vs McClellan

Wainwright logged 150 or more innings in the minor leagues 4 times before coming up as a reliever, then going back to a starter.

McClellan started 12 of his last 60 games in the minors. He has not started regularly since 2004, before Wainwright even came to the big leagues.

It will be quite the reclamation project to get him back to starting full time.

by stlfan on Aug 12, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

Because the title of the original post was “surely TLR knows Perez’s name.”

And, seriously, someone thinks that an MLB manager stating that a big league player ‘stumbled a bit” is a shot? Good lord, how fragile do you think these guys are?

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 12, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really K-Mac and Young Pitcher (new nickname) had similar innings

Both allowed the first batter on base, but K-Mac had the bad fortune to have him end up on third after the SB and error. Young Pitcher striking out those two guys was pretty solid though.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 12, 2008 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

In relation to this year’s bullpen, walking the leadoff guy then striking out two is hardly “stumbling a little bit”. Young Pitcher had one of the best ninth innings we’ve seen this year!

C70 at the Bat

by Cardinal70 on Aug 12, 2008 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

To play devils advocate..

I believe Franklin has struck out the side not once, but twice in the 9th. (maybe three times?) and you’ve seen how he’s done other times. So I couldn’t hold onto that concept as a bullet point.

That being said, stumble was pretty accurate as he was clearly off out of the gate, but it’s great to see him settle in and K two lower order batters

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Better off with Young Pitcher

who stumble a bit than Old pitcher who fall on ass…Confuckus

by ridgesee on Aug 12, 2008 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's LaRussa hedging

in order to justify Wainwright going back into the pen. Whenever Izzy gave up 1 baserunner and got a save in an inning, Tony never called him “old guy” and never said he “stumbled.” Tony’s politicking there.

by chuckb on Aug 12, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

in fact...

...he would probably praise “old pitcher” for “gutting it out” or something. I just think if he’s going to say he “stumbled”, he should at least follow it up by acknowledging he recovered pretty damn well.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He knows his name...

Have you ever listened to a Lou Pinella press conference? He can’t remember anyone’s name. He stammers all the time, it’s actually really funny. I like uncle Lou.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 12, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I lost hope of Wainwright going to the rotation....

...when I read this from Saturday’s post:

""The last thing I wanted to do was come down here and not get stretched out and have to come back (to Memphis) and get my pitch count back up," Wainwright said. "They said, ‘Adam, don’t worry about that. You go down there. We’re going to use you in the bullpen.’""

If they have secretive plans; Adam doesn’t appear aware.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 9:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

or block quote style

The last thing I wanted to do was come down here and not get stretched out and have to come back (to Memphis) and get my pitch count back up,” Wainwright said. “They said, ‘Adam, don’t worry about that. You go down there. We’re going to use you in the bullpen.’

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Blech.

He we are, still reacting to news from over a week ago. Meanwhile circumstances are changing and Mo is still basing his war plans on secret intercepts of the Japanese code in 1943. Can someone just run down to Busch Stadium and give him a big noogy for all of us?

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Plus

I think we take things too literal around here. Professional sports figures are hardly ever forthright and things change in a hurry. Let’s just see where this all plays out before we start freaking out. Remember, Perez is NOT our closer yet he’s seen the 9th inning exclusively this past week.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But Wainwright's comments

almost make it seem as if it would be total dick move for them to change the bullpen plans at this point….

he wanted – rightly imo – assurance that he’s not being jerked around down there.

I think the real test will be this – if carp’s test prove a longer term injury, will they push back AW’s next appearance to Sat (i.e. 4 days of rest). As of now, he is set to throw Thurs….

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know

They increased his pitch load yesterday at the request of Duncan. I think at this point, there are no certainties. Honestly, I’m really surprised Wainwright is having this much difficulty in getting his stuff back. I guess I just expected him to come back firing since he didn’t have an arm injury. I’m confused as anyone, and that’s about all I can say. Maybe this finger thing is more of an immediate issue than it appears? I’m sure it’s not a long term thing, and he’ll be better than fine next year…..I just don’t know what to expect this year from him any more.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Will Carroll on 1380 yesterday suggested as much

He thinks its utterly bizarre that the cardinals are even considering putting him in the bullpen (why would you take 7 innings from a guy in exchange for 1 here and there, he asked).

He suggested the cardinals think the finger is still enough of a problem that he won’t gain command of his curve ball….and, thus, can only really be effective as a reliever (fastball/slider combo maybe).

But, everyone here realizes that AW needs his curveball to be effective period. Why they would be screwing around with an injured pitcher is beyond me.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not convinced he needs his curveball to be an effective reliever

and ultimately a trip to the ‘pen without his big curve might turn him into an unbelievable starter. If he can learn to really pitch with out uncle Charlie, he’ll be unstoppable.

There are going to be days when he doesn’t have the curve working correctly. Being more than confident in his whole arsenal makes him deadly.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well, we'll probably find out soon enough

today’s article suggests after Thursday’s outing, he will be called up into our pen

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that seems like a bit of a rush IMO

He’s struggling at AAA. At least Carp was succeeding down there.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he is our future #1

for 5 more years. Why screw around w/ him at all? If he’s not healthy enough to throw all his pitches, he doesn’t need to be pitching. The next 5 years are MUCH more important than the next 5 weeks.

by chuckb on Aug 12, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree...Don't let him pitch if he can't throw every pitch

by ICbirdfan on Aug 12, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nice post and style (or pedantic) points for: "accretion of circumstances"

I still think the team is wavering between a realization that the post season is pretty much past possible, and trying to hang in hoping the Cubs hibernate. If they’ve decided it will be fine in 09, then you jettison baggage – Izzy and Izzy2, Lohse (sadly) maybe Glaus, Franklin, Kennedy (assuming SOMEONE woud find a wee bit of value) – and bring up the Memphis Minors. On the other hand, if you look for a 1964-type comback, then you keep trotting out the shock troops; thus waino closes, and the Memphis Redbirds remain a Motte (ly) crew of “wait ‘till next year (s).

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Aug 12, 2008 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't think you have a choice but to keep playing hard...

and trying to get to the playoffs…the fan base and the guys in the clubhouse (particularly Pujols) wouldn’t have it any other way…I see them hanging in there, but falling short along about Sept 15 or so

by tbell61 on Aug 12, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously, we're not out of it

Are you actually saying that we should sell spare parts (including Glaus, Franklin and Kennedy, who are under contract for 2009) when we’re 10 games over .500?

by mojowo11 on Aug 12, 2008 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 12, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and they're not hoping the Cubs fail

its the Brewers they’ve got their eye on.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if we could get rid of

Franklin and Kennedy, we should. If anyone’s insane enough to take their contracts, dump them for a bag of balls and a fungo bat to be named later. Glaus, we need.

by chuckb on Aug 12, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well yeah

But nobody’s dumb enough to take their contract, let alone give us something for them.

by mojowo11 on Aug 12, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

as long as there are teams that will trade for

Todd Hundly, Michael Barrett and LaTroy Hawkins, never say never.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kennedy

If Barton doesn’t just languish on the DL until September, you’d have to think that a fifth outfielder is the most pressing concern for us at the moment. Mather’s been contributing very well lately. Kennedy or Lopez look like the most expendable players on the roster (not including healthy but questionably effective bullpen vets). Hard to believe the Cards would throw away $4M+ by DFA’ing Kennedy.

Thompson’s got options remaining but we’ll need a starter for Friday (Garcia?).

Pretty tough call on how to make room for Barton, but I’d like to see how he and Skip can work as a leadoff platoon the rest of the way.

by liam on Aug 12, 2008 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Barton can't

he’s due back today i believe.

And with the way Mather’s been hitting, I’d be pissed to see him go down for Barton. But, I’m not sure what else there is since Thompson and Garcia are really important come Friday.

Quite the quandary.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he can

He has to end his rehab but he doesnt have to come off the DL

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, just realized that down the thread a bit

Had no idea. Doesn’t make sense, but it sorta does, i guess. Nevertheless, it’s a loophole i expect them to take full advantage of.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

I had a thoery that Kennedy would be DFA in order to make room for Barton. I posted it in a thread the other day…

Of course. It’s just be doing equations without enough variables to actually solve it.

by Evilfrog on Aug 12, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anybody know if Lopez'

deal allows him to be sent down? He could use some regular ABs to see if he is any good. Barton brings more to the table than FLopez.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Aug 12, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He'd obviously clear waivers again

but he’d be under no obligation to accept the assignment to AAA and stay in the org.

by liam on Aug 12, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't agree.....

that he brings more to the table. Lopez can play the infield, and can hit righties better, most likely.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 12, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

spare part

how much of a spare part is glaus? plus defender who hits home runs and is signed for the next couple years. the only high upside replacement in the system is wallace, but he probably won’t be ready until ‘10.

by spencegrif on Aug 12, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's signed for one more year.

And he’s either No. 1 or No. 2 in defense in the league this year. He’s not a spare part in any sense of the word.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and he has a No-trade clause.

Probably would be less willing to waive it again.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

to even hint that Glaus is spare baggage

angers me in a Glausian sort of way

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

Izzy won’t be with us. Kennedy probably will be (sadly). No way is Glaus going anywhere. I could even see him offered a contract extension—particularly if we could trade the Walrus for a SS or 2B. OTOH, they need to start thinking about Pujols’s contract, too. They need to keep the number of large contracts of declining players to a minimum.

I think Motte probably will take Springer’s job next year. They’ve got to try him the big leagues and find out whether he can do it. Filling out the bullpen and replacing the hole in the MI are the big tasks next offseason. Which is exactly why they’ll probably sign someone else to play outfield. (Sigh.)

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 10:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Trade Walrus?

No thank you. Wallace is IMO the new Rasmus of the farm system. He should take over the top ranking after next season (Rasmus should still be ranked 1st after this season). He might get a good return but I would rather have a 2010 infield of Pujols, Kozma, Wallace and Warm Body than trade him.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Personally,

I wouldn’t worry about Wallace leaving anytime soon. Wallace has a projection that is very aligned with team needs, he’s here at the perfect time.

Wallace will need all of ‘09 to season into himself, defensively for sure, but even with the bat. Glaus is signed during that span. During ‘09 Glaus determines his own destiny. If he plays well (glove and bat) then he may open the door to an extension, unless he ends up being trade bait mid year next year. If he’s gone at the end of ‘09 than Wallace is setup to slide right in by then.

If he’s still here then Wallace would most likely still be with the team. He would be a first, third base backup and a power bat off the bench. This way he could give time off to Pu and Troy.

If the worst case scenario happens and Albert needs surgery, then you have Wallace projecting there for short term help, something we could have used this year.

Can’t even trade Wallace until mid year next year due to draft rules anyways. In another words, don’t look for Wallace to even be considered as a trade chip as frankly he’s right in line with team needs long term

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Starting 3B in 2010

With any sort of defensive improvement, pencil him in for Opening Day 2010.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can we start Dan Haren that day, too?

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nope

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

mulder is scheduled to be healthy then, right?

How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor

by themanthemyth on Aug 12, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I heard he's gonna try pitching right handed.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Worked for Billy Wagner

but the other way.

by liam on Aug 12, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

On the baseball team I coached this year

we had a shortstop who hit lefty. (btw, he’s going to Purdue on a full-ride scholarship next year and got drafted by the Marlins…...in other words, he’s pretty good). Anyway, I asked him why he hit lefty. He told me he does everything lefty except throw a baseball and the reason was that when he was little, his dad bought the wrong baseball glove for him and refused to take it back so he learned to throw righty.

Throwing with his WRONG hand (right hand), we clocked him at 90 mph from the shortstop position. I was amazed.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My high school buddy is sort of the same way

He was a natural righty, but his dad turned him around and made him throw lefty in the interests of his baseball career, haha. Now he does almost everything lefty.

He’s a DIII ballplayer like me, by the way. You know the guy the Cubs got for Scott Eyre, Brian Schlitter? We played him in high school. I pitched and got the win and my buddy drove in two with a double. Final score: 2-1 (side note: I was 0 for 1 with two walks and a strikeout…that guy threw hard).

I cling to these things.

by mojowo11 on Aug 12, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jimmy Edmonds

is ambidextrous even though he throws and bats left-handed. Until he had surgery on his right shoulder, he used to take grounders at second right-handed, for fun.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

IF that truly is the case...

then Freese and Craig need to be shopped in the offseason for needs since they are ahead of Wallace and will inhibit him moving up in the minors. I’m just not sure that he’s that much better a player than Craig at this point, who has put up a nice season thus far. OF and 3B are definitely positions of strength in the Cardinal farm system and the team should take advantage of that to acquire some players that fill needs.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 12, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I definatly see the team moving one of either Craig or Freese

this offseason. They’re sortof redundant we’re starting to see a log jam.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if Wallace can't stick at 3b,

which is more likely than not, there’s not really a logjam.

by chuckb on Aug 12, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

better put him on the treadmill right now!

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hasnt been horrible so far

I think he only has like 3 Errors

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 12, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

when I saw him play

albeit just once, he seemed like he had potential D at 3B

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought so too,

but I only saw him once as well.

by cardsgirl95 on Aug 12, 2008 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well

they’re committed to him playing 3rd. Read into it what you will, but he’ll need a place to play next year and with Freese, Craig, and Wallace all behind Glaus….I’d call that a bit of a log jam. That’s 3 guys who could realistically be at AAA next year.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Best pure hitter

Wallace is considered the best pure hitter of this years draft, he has the offensive talent. We need to keep at least one of Freese and Craig as a backup for next season and in case Wallace can’t stick at 3B, in which case he is blocked by Pujols or he learns the OF. From what I have heard it appears he might be able to stick but you want to hedge your bets for awhile as well. I would assume Wallace starts at Springfield next year and might end up in Memphis after the ASB.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or he becomes Matt LaPorta

and is a major trade chip with an AL team. There really is no downside with Wallace.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wallace

is a bit too stocky to play the OF, unless they really change him somehow

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

kirby puckett played cf

im sure wallace could at least try a corner

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 12, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 12, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

good point

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know if it's a good point or not.

Yes it’s silly to say short squatty guys “can’t” play the OF, as Kirby Puckett dis and Brian Giles plays OF as well.

However trying to compare Wallace athletically to Puckett is ludacrious. Kirby Puckett was wayyyyyyyyy more athletic than Wallace.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 12, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he's also

wayyyyy more of an a-hole from what I’ve heard

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And? What does have

to do with Wallace playing OF?

by njnick on Aug 12, 2008 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not much.....But according to reports Kirby as an A-Hole

I just would never bring up Kirby as a short squatty guy when talking about Wallace. Kirby was quick as hell and one heck of an athlete. I am not saying Wallace is a bad athlete because I think he is a good athlete. However from watching his last couple college games he can not run/move anything like Puckett

by ICbirdfan on Aug 12, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

as= was

by ICbirdfan on Aug 12, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's pretty much what I was thinking when I saw him play

even though it was just once, I just didn’t see him having the wheels playing the outfield. I could be wrong I guess.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

was

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dumb question

Who is Wallace? What’s his first name ? I’d like to look him up to know who he is.

by sdrone on Aug 12, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

1st round pick this year

here’s his first inning page.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brett

To answer the name question

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He is only...

the greatest Odobenus Rosmarus you will ever see hit a baseball!

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 12, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and apparantly he hates that nickname

but I think he’ll get used to it, cause I doubt its going anywhere. Plus its a hell of a lot better than calling him B-Wal or whatever.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

brett wallace is seven feet tall

and if he were here, he’d consume the cubbies and brewers with fireballs from his eyes, and bolts of lightning from his arse.

but then again, maybe he should just get used to it and start working on that mustache.

by mattybobo on Aug 12, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What would a lineup of

Brett Wallace, Amaury Marti, and Nico Vasquez do to the opposition? It’s probably not fair to even write those three names in the same blog post.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Amaury Marti

would probably eat them alive, literally as I understand it. He eats paper towels for breakfast and craps maple bats in the afternoon.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marti

would sire the 8 other players necessary to field a side

by spencegrif on Aug 12, 2008 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

BILL BRASKY!!!!

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 12, 2008 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Schedule Disparity

I know it’s been done to death, but the Cubs have Atlanta and the Brewers have San Diego this week. Hopefully, we can maintain our current games back while they tally up some wins versus these AAAA clubs.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2008 11:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think scheduling is one of the major problems in the game today

it’s not “life or death” huge or “PED” huge, but I long for the old days (24 teams) before interleague play, when you played everybody in your division 18 times and the other division 12 times a season…there was no “we-don’t-see-Arizona-until-Sept-1st” or “we’re-finished-with-Milwaukee-by-August-28” kind of issues, and I don’t even want to get into the problems that interleague play has caused (e.g, Cards play Boston and Yankees one year, while Cubs get Baltimore and Tampa Bay).

As I said, not a gigantic deal, you play the schedule in front of you, but it’s annoying enough to make me shake my head.

by tbell61 on Aug 12, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hate interleague

the only place on Earth that truly gives a crap about it is Chicago (and maybe Kansas City) and really who cares what they think?

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You forgot a place

“Start spreading the news…”

by whopperman on Aug 12, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The mets fans might care

but Yankees fans don’t care about the Mets.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

Cards fans don’t care about KC either…

by saladdays on Aug 12, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

exactly.

Another reason to not like Chicago….......and I live here….............

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

is it really that bad?

j/k

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um...I like interleague

It has it’s downsides, but seeing the Rays roll into St. Louis earlier this year was pretty cool.

by mojowo11 on Aug 12, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I also like interleague

Sure it has some slight downsides, but who wants to possibly go a whole lifetime without the cardinals playing the yankees? It seems silly to make it almost impossible for teams to ever play anyone in the other league, with only one series a year of interleague play. It’s fun to see teams you only normally hear about, and be able to see stars of the other league in person every once in awhile

by soccerfreak on Aug 12, 2008 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

get rid of interleague, it totally F’s up the schedule! then we can be done with this AS Game debacle as well

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dunn is done (traded to D-backs)

After the Marlins, the Cardinals face a Reds team without Griffey or Dunn. The Reds are looking AAAA right about now—let’s hope the Cardinals can take advantage.

by ncgostl on Aug 12, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

we still have 7 left w/ the D-backs, though.

by chuckb on Aug 12, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

but now when we face dunn, he won't be batting in cincy's ballpark

by soccerfreak on Aug 12, 2008 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

At least the Braves have Chipper back

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 12, 2008 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

At the beginning of the year...

I’m sure our schedule would have looked easier right now. I had the Marlins in 4th in the East, the Padres a close 2nd in the West and the Braves a dark horse WS contender. Man have THEY had a rough year!

by mattisnotfrench on Aug 12, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't like it either

but you can bet MLB would rather have a computer make the schedule than the husband/wife pair who used to do it.

by sdrone on Aug 12, 2008 11:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

(sorry, this was a response to the scheduling comment)

n/t

by sdrone on Aug 12, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, I remember reading about them once

didn’t they do that for years?

by tbell61 on Aug 12, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't recall for sure

but yeah, I think they may have done it for 10 or 20 years, maybe even more.

by sdrone on Aug 12, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are there still doubleheaders on the schedule?

I can’t recall any, except for make-up games.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think there have been scheduled doubleheaders

for a long time.

by sdrone on Aug 12, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Too bad.

They’re good for the fans, even if they’re hell on the players.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They're only good for the fans

if it’s not a day/night double header. Two games for the price of one probably ain’t coming back anytime soon.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Day/day double headers were great.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

either day/day or twi-nighters

remember those? 1st game starts about 5/5:30…I remember being at the ball park til midnight for some of those.

I don’t think you will ever see a two games for one admission ever again…it’s another casualty of the Bud Selig era (error).

by tbell61 on Aug 12, 2008 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very very good post

The Cardinals are being stubborn about the closer situation. They are making a big mistake

When the time comes for me to not be bothered by losing that is when I know it is time to retire my fandom

by ANDYAK47 on Aug 12, 2008 11:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Brian Barton

is still at Memphis and his rehab time should be up. Was part of the Reyes trade agreement that Indian would not reclaim him?

by ridgesee on Aug 12, 2008 11:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He will be with the team today, if I read correctly.

He can activated immediately. I suppose Mather will have to go back down.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mather

I don’t think it will be Mather, I think Garcia or Thompson might go down, as much as we need one of them for a spot start we also need the extra OF as well.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

CARP

who makes carps next start then. If you send one of them down and we need a start, you don’t have anyone in long relief.

Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!

by joshbaz12 on Aug 12, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure

That is why I said we need them for a spot start. Or we can leave Barton on the DL till after that start.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

can't

his rehab is up.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

rehab is up yes

that just means he can’t appear for Memphis not that he has to come off the DL

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Carp to the DL

After today’s exam?

by Evilfrog on Aug 12, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thats a possibility

hope not though.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

please don't send mather down.

not that i have a better solution, but i like that kid.

by launchshuttle on Aug 12, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It was not possible to do

According to Goold. (Really complicated and I’ve already forgotten the specifics).

However, he now has to be with the team since his rehab stint is up. but he doesn’t have to be activated. He just stays on the DL.

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 12, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I find it hard to believe

we can get away with this. He’s not hurt. He didn’t need a rehab. The front office is playing games. If I were Cleveland, I would call Mo and say WTF?

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not hurt?

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 12, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

His broken hand or whatever

was a microscopic crack. We lead the league in fake injuries. Not that I’m complaining…

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fake or real, I do not know.

It was best for Brian (got him 20 games or so) and best for the Cards.

by andujar on Aug 12, 2008 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

agree

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Teams do this with the Rule 5 ALL the time

This is nothing new. It’s well within the rules.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Aug 12, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Everybody

does this with rule 5 picks.

I’m surprised the Cardinals don’t do it more. Just punch the guy in the arm and DL him for the bruise. Send him on rehab for three weeks, then punch him in the other arm. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

by whopperman on Aug 12, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A Front Office Conversation

ring!!!

“This is John.”

“John, this is the Indians.”

“Hi, the indians!”

“WTF?”

“LOL!”

“WTF!”

“TTYL!”

*click*

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 12, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

I giggled

Sent it along to my Cubs fan friend. He giggled, too.

by mojowo11 on Aug 12, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he is already off of the DL

by Evilfrog on Aug 12, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Since when?

He was just on rehab.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Like yesterday

The 20 days are up.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right

His rehab stint is over. Now he’s just on the DL.

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 12, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Quote the paper of record

BARTON TO RETURN
Outfielder Brian Barton is expected to join the team today, though whether he’ll be activated any time in this series has not been determined.

Barton’s 20-day rehab assignment expired after he started in right field for Class AAA Memphis on Monday. He has been with Memphis while recovering from a fractured hand. He has a .260 average, having gone two for his last 18 with five strikeouts. The Cards can keep him on the disabled list — though he can’t go out on a second rehab assignment without being diagnosed with a new injury — or choose to activate him.

As a Rule 5 pick, Barton must remain on the Cards’ 25-man roster or the major-league DL all season for them to retain his rights.

Yes, I follow Barton’s season irrationally. In fact, I bought his b-ref page.

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 12, 2008 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

then he can just sit on the DL until September

I’m fine with that. Sucks he doesn’t get plate appearances, but I think Joe Mather has proven himself more valuable at this point.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Barton played last night, I think

by ridgesee on Aug 12, 2008 12:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Correct

it was the last day of his rehab stint

Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?

by Alxfritz on Aug 12, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pujols

MLBrumors.com says his elbow has been “barking” again, though it says he expects to make it through the season.

Three things…..first, I wonder if this explains some of the lack of power we’ve seen this year? I know some of you think he isn’t getting ANYTHING to hit, but I disagree. I actually think he’s getting the same pitches, or in some situations, better ones. I think the injury may explain what I see as a “singles approach” at times from him, and why he’s swung and missed more often when taking the big swing than in the past.

Secondly, why hasn’t he gotten the elbow fixed yet? If he gets it done after the season, will he not be ready for spring training? Seems ridiculous to not get this fixed.

Third, if not for the elbow, would anybody be in favor of moving Pujols ever? Not saying it makes sense NOW, but say Glaus were to suffer a career ending injury. Wouldn’t the best lineup we could put out there probably include Pujols at 3rd, and a guy like Mather/Duncan/Phelps at 1B? Or if we didn’t have the OF glut, moving him to a corner OF spot. Or 2B. Just thinking out loud.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 12, 2008 12:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Does he lead the NL in slugging?

by Evilfrog on Aug 12, 2008 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Albert Pujols leads MLB in slugging at .613

I don’t get it, he has 24 HR and the league leader has 32 which is not a ton more. Heck Alber missed 15 days so I guess you can assume he should have about 3 more HR at this time had he been healthy.

The theory on his injury is, there is no point in fixing it until it absolutely needs to be fixed.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 12, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why?

Unless getting the surgery right after the season would cause him to miss time the following season, it doesn’t make sense, unless Pujols just doesn’t want to spend his offseason rehabbing. The alternative is he injures it during the season, and misses most of a season. I don’t see ANY reason why you don’t get it fixed sooner rather than later.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 12, 2008 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know....

I seem to rememer there being a story about a doctor stating that Pujols has the type of injury that they would need to fully fix the elbow and it can’t really be fully fixed until it blows out? someone correct me if I am incorrect….... It’s one of those injuries that does exist but it’s not yet bad enough to really fully fix. It can be bothersome to Albert but it’s not at the point where a surgery is going to fully fix the issue.

Someone has to know more than me about this and can jump in and let me know. This is what I seem to remember.

I am not too worried I figure that Albert lost about 3 HR being injured. So he would be sitting at 27 HR and all it takes is a hot week for him to be right up there with the league leading 32 HR so he is right on pace. Albert is not the type of guy who will probably ever lead the league in HR. He is more of a 34-37 HR a year guy in my opinion.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 12, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Albert HR totals

34-37 would be fine with me.

Musial never led the league in HR either. He did ok.

by andujar on Aug 12, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

musial almost did once

stupid rainouts…

by mattybobo on Aug 12, 2008 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Was it Goold...

Who was looking for that game? Did he ever find it? He would’ve won the triple crown that year.

by svengali on Aug 12, 2008 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Surgery

Is a last resort thing. Things dont always get better with surgery.

by Evilfrog on Aug 12, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I recall that TJ for a position player

is more than a six-month deal, more like nine months-plus. In other words, he would miss half a season. It’s not a do-it-in-October-and-he’s-ready-by-March type of thing.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

eorthopod.com says 6 months

as does wikipedia.

link, scroll all the way down. It’s a tough call though, as 6 months leaves no time for ST even if the surgery is done on 1 OCT, and he’d probably want to take 2-3 weeks to rest/prepare/etc.

"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere

by SleepyCA on Aug 12, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tony Womak

did this the year he came to the Cards.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

didnt tony womack make it back in like 3 mos when he played with the D'backs?

i have no idea if that is true or not but it seems like he was back really fast. nor do i condone albert rushing back like that…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Aug 12, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not to be picky, but 30% is a lot.....

Random comment: maybe offseason rehab keeps him from doing his trainer’s ridiculously heavy weight training regimen?

by sdrone on Aug 12, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also can we retire that word

“barking”? It might bite, but I’ve never heard an injury make noise.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have

it’s usually not a “bark” per say, but I’ve heard “pop”, “crack” and a tearing noise. Not good sounds to hear.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

I had my hamstring pop once. It’s both troubling and kinda gross to hear.

by mojowo11 on Aug 12, 2008 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Had a massive shoulder dislocation once

Sounded like someone broke about 10 very crisp celery stalks in half.

Fun part was that I ended up having to have the same surgery Mulder had afterwards.

by birdo rojo on Aug 12, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

!

and you probably didn’t even get $10 million for it!!!

by spencegrif on Aug 12, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

my knees make noise

But it is more of a clicking sound.

by Evilfrog on Aug 12, 2008 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I tripped and fell down some stairs once

And ever since, my left knee makes a creaking sound. Like an old wooden door in a scary movie, just not as loud.

by jdub176 on Aug 12, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

we need a replacement word.

Barking is out.

roaring, yipping, banging, bitching, whining, moaning, screaming, giving, quitting, rubbing, wanking, snarling, dumping, a turkey sandwich, burnt, cut, injured, wounded, damaged, broke, aching, throbbing, stinging, smarting, upset, insulted, offended.

Personally, I like insulted.

Albert’s elbow has been insulted recently.

by andujar on Aug 12, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

1,700 hits for Pujols + elbow + barking

It’s a poor adjective, and it’s lazy writing. I stand by my point.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LaRussa word?

Tony seems to say it often. So it may be some lazy writing by suggestion.

Your point is valid.

by andujar on Aug 12, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like "barking"

get’s the point across. People often say their feet are “barking” which is derived, i assume, from calling feet “dogs”. But i think it works well with other parts of the body too. But, I’m not sure how his hit total has any effect on the use of the term “barking”, or makes it lazy writing for that matter. If his elbow hurts, or aches, then it hurts. Doesn’t have anything to do with his hit total.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he meant

google hits

by jeff_abs on Aug 12, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ah....

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not particularly accurate as a simile

and it’s very overused. Sportswriters can be more creative than that. Whatever happened to Grantland Rice?

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pujos still has numbers that are competing with the best in baseball

the elbow isn’t effecting his lifestyle.

Even if there is issues with his elbow that will require a fix at some point, he should make the call on when. The only time a team should intervene is when his performance is hampered by the injury or when the injury is career threatening while having a few years on the contract.

Neither is the case.

And cutting that elbow for the sake of 3-7 more HR and a few points on the SLG isn’t something I’d ask any player to do, on any day. That’s a call that should have his voice as a priority.

but when it’s done, and if him moving a position is a possibility, I’m all for it should we not lose anything in the process.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Albert has never been a pure power hitter

why so worried about the home run total? he’s having an unbelievable season, despite being hurt for something other than the elbow. I for one am very happy about how he has shown up the media, which just about guaranteed he wouldn’t be a factor this year in their false reporting at the beginning of the season

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The thing about the elbow report was that it was old news

His elbow has been in this condition almost his entire career since being called up. ESPN or whoever reported this thing like it had just happend, when in fact he’s played at an MVP level for years with it.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

the whole thing was dumbfounding… it even affected his rating in most fantasy leagues. they made it sound like it was almost inevitable that his elbow would be a season ending injury this season, when it’s been a problem at least since 2003.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perez

Before everyone anoints Chris Perez as our Official Closer For The Next Ten Years, step back and see what happens the rest of the season. Hey, last night – if Uggla hadn’t pulled one of the dumbest moves of the year, Perez might have walked the first two batters in the ninth inning and who knows what would have happened? I hope he’s The Man, but it’s too early to jump on that bandwagon. Give the kid a little space.

Why is everyone panicking about Waino being a reliever for awhile or is LaRussa hinting that it will be permanent? I would think it’s just temporary until they’re confident he can be the old Waino and pitch as did before the injury.

by ccthemovieman on Aug 12, 2008 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

There's no way it can be permanent

we have some GREAT young bullpen arms down on the farm – Motte, Worrell, Perdomo, Salas… Combine them with K-Mac, Young Pitcher and we’re set.

THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!

Seriously... what were Rich Harden's parents thinking?!?!?!

by stltrav09 on Aug 12, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Common sense.....

Suggests that half thoughs guys won’t make it, or be successful. Just the way it goes. Worrell will be very average at best, I imagine. Motte is intriguing, but alot of hard throwers never amount to much. Needs control, and a second pitch. Perdomo, Salas…..who knows.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 12, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Motte’s development of that second pitch is why he’s really churning in success right now. He has more than one pitch if you’re needing an update on his skillset.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 12, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's throwing it more

But it’s still not particularly good. In AAA, that doesn’t matter much, because the guys that can tattoo a 98-mph fastball tend to not do it very often, or else they wouldn’t be in AAA.

But it does matter in the majors.

by whopperman on Aug 12, 2008 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's what i've been noticing

Like a month ago it seems like most acknowledged he didn’t have a secondary pitch. Then all of a sudden he started throwing one and many have said “OH!!! There it is!!! He has a second pitch now!!! Call him up!!”

Like he just magically discovered he knew another pitch thats major league ready.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Joel Zumaya......

He throws 97-99 consistently, like when he pitched against the cards and never dropped below 97MPH on the gun…......

He even gets hit hard when he only has one pitch. So it’s probably in Motte’s best interest to learn his secondary pitch at AAA and then come up when he can throw it a bit more consistently. He can currently get MLB hitters out obviously but to be successful I think it’s best to let him get a little bit better feel.

by ICbirdfan on Aug 12, 2008 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I find it hard to believe.....

He “fully” developed a 2nd pitch in a couple of months. Maybe he did, but b/c you hear one report that he threw a good slider or two, doesn’t mean squat. Perez’s slider is supposedly light years ahead of anything Motte has, and I think IT needs work.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 12, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

so what you are saying is...

the young pitcher strumbled?

by Evilfrog on Aug 12, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wainwright as reliever

Most believe that Adam’s highest value lies in him starting games for us down the stretch, especially if Carp is sidelined for anything more than a start.

Adam’s value added by starting over Joel, would be more than the trickle-down value added to the bullpen.

My question is: Has anyone actually said that Adam will be closing? I’d like to see him save games in the same manner McClellan saved last night’s game.

by andujar on Aug 12, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

no one has officially sad he will be the closer

Mo proclaims “keeping our options open”, “flexibility”, etc, etc.

Adam said he was under the impression that he would be in the “back end” of games. That’s the closest we’ve come.

I’m sure if he gets called up this weekend, he’ll get thrown into a couple low-leverage situations to get his feet wet, and then within a week or so, put into the 9th.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

If you mean “permanent” into 2009 and beyond then no – Wainwright is never going to be anything other than a starter in 2009.

But, if they chose to put him in relief this week, there’s little chance he will start in 2008. Essentially, he would have to go back down to Memphis (or pitch abbreviated starts for us, taxing our already taxed bullpen) to stretch him out for another couple weeks. There’s only a month and a half left?!

As for Perez – I agree. The dude can be wild – never good for a closer. And I’m still not convinced his slider is there yet. If it isn’t major league hitters will be able to hit that fastball a long way (as they did in June).

But – as most people on this site agree – I would much prefer sticking with Perez as closer in 2008 – for better or worse – and letting our ace starting pitcher – START.

Unless, of course, he can’t throw the curve. In which case, he probably shouldn’t be pitching at all- period.

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Would they have to send him down to do that?

If he can throw 60 pitches, can’t he just pair up with Brad Thompson for a game or two and throw a longer side session in between? He is still only a couple of weeks away from a starter’s regimen.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not in favor of accepting short starts for "a game or two"

...in a pennant race, it is so important to keep the bullpen fresh. Sure, Brad Thompson is good for that role, but what if Jo-El blows up the next day?

by cardsfaninmass on Aug 12, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We've kind of been doing it all season though

I think a little creativity would work. You could pair up with Thompson and send him down the next day and bring up Boggs, something like that. You wouldn’t have to keep Wainwright stuck in Memphis all month.

by Red in Chicago on Aug 12, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and you've always got Garcia to give you innings.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and the problem goes away when rosters expand

by andujar on Aug 12, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

no one here believes he will be the closer

for the next 10 years. Tony’s made it abundantly clear he wants Wainwright pitching 1 inning every few days rather than 7 every 5th day. Wainwright will be the closer. We’d just like to see Perez get a shot.

by chuckb on Aug 12, 2008 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Questions for 2009

If mclellan moves to the rotation and assuming carp, wainwright, welle, pinero are back is it necessary to re-sign loshe? Unless he is willing to admit/ convince agent Boras he is having a career year and it would be a good idea to take what money the Cardinals offer him. (A-rod?) This would allow him to be paid fairly and have continued success with Duncan.
I doubt that would actually happen. So if we decide to use an insurance policy for the injury-prone rotation and resign Looper, do you think we could get him to go back to setup man/emergency starter if necessary?
Also, since Adam Kennedy is under contract through next year and it doesn’t look like managment wants cut their losses, should resign Miles to platoon this position? Clearly Kennedy is not the future nor is Miles, but do we resign Miles to begin with? He is a great utility player and I am unsure of what the 2b market will be.
These are just some thoughts I had for the offseason, let me know what yours are on these issues.

by 916baller on Aug 12, 2008 4:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

No.....

I’m beginning to think more and more that Loshe isn’t on the radar for ‘09. And I think I’m okay wit that, for what he’ll be asking.

I’m torn on moving K-Mac to a starters role. If he excels in it, a 1-4 of Carp/Waino/K-Mac/Welly would be as good as anybody, most likely. JP or one of the young guys could man the 5th spot. What I don’t like about that move is the bullpen. Izzy is likely gone, we’ll have Perez and Franklin back. Who knows about Springer, but he’s getting pretty old. Then you have guys like Thompson and Boggs maybe. I don’t like Garcia in the pen. That is why I lean towards leaving K-Mac in the pen, and having Garcia as the 4th/5th starter next year.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 12, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good Point

We don’t have a lefty starter right now. I completly forgot about Garcia. That would be a pretty good option in the rotation.

by 916baller on Aug 12, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

I’d rather have Garcia as starter and General McClellan in the ‘pen with Overlord Perez seeing duties when needed

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wouldn't resign Miles

He’s having a career year, so the odds of him continuing to do well are slim at best…. but the price may be too good to pass up for a decent bench guy and TLR just loves the guy… but I hope somebody better can be signed.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 12, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Line up for tonight

per Bernie

Schumaker CF
Lopez 2B
Pujols 1B
Ludwick RF
Ankiel LF
Glaus 3B
Molina C
Lohse P
Izturis SS

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 12, 2008 4:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

is this the first game lopez is playing 2B?

too bad he’s not a good SS

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

almost the best possible

if you put Miles in for Izturis that is the best possible offensive lineup we have.

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

has kennedy sat since his great game sunday night?

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Aug 12, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't remember if he played last night

don’t think he did though

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

isn't AK on the way to Phoenix?

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Aug 12, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."

by Mr Redbird on Aug 12, 2008 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I mean, D-backs need a 2B now and we have an extra :)

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Aug 12, 2008 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

we going up against a lefty or righty?

skip and iztoo kinda cancel each other out offensively

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

righty

by StLHugo on Aug 12, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rookie righty

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 12, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

'cept...

Skip is a lot better against righties than Iz2 is against lefties. They are almost equally bad otherwise.

by cardzfanbub on Aug 12, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

so it's better than facing a lefty

fo sho

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like it.....

Really like having Glaus and Molina at 6-7, as opposed to 5-6, in the lineup.

That’s probably about as good a lineup as we can put out there.

by SoonerfanTU on Aug 12, 2008 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good Lineup

in my opinion it would only be better with Miles at 2B. Lopez still hasn’t shown he can hit. It may be a small sample size, but his OPS has actually went DOWN since he signed with the Cards.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Aug 12, 2008 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Red Sox acquired Paul Byrd for cash/PTBNL

Linklings.

Byrd’s been fantastic over his last five starts: 35 IP, 1.80 ERA.

Someone we should (or were) considering? I have to think it wouldn’t hurt to add an arm.

by mojowo11 on Aug 12, 2008 5:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I was thinking the same thing

It couldn’t have hurt to have him.

by saladdays on Aug 12, 2008 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ya and he had cleared waivers

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Aug 12, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Some intriguing players...

Passing through waivers and getting dealt this year…Dunn, Giles, now Byrd (tho I am significantly less a fan of Byrd).

by svengali on Aug 12, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think any of those players cleared waivers.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're right...

It made sense in my head. I should clarify what I meant, but it’s been a long day so I’ll just leave it at that.

by svengali on Aug 12, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I knew what you meant

just was clarifying in a sort of strange way.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good point

Probably never had a shot at him. Oh well.

by mojowo11 on Aug 12, 2008 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nope

since he played in the American League, we didn’t even get the chance to pass him by. At least that’s how I’m interpreting the process.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

thats if they don't clear waivers

if they clear then it’s free for all i believe but thats how im interpreting the process..be nice if they just made it easy on us…

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Aug 12, 2008 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

actually Byrd did clear waivers

so they did have a shot at him..

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Aug 12, 2008 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Byrd cleared waivers for sure

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 12, 2008 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ya i was responding to tackle

the rest in his list(svengali) did not though

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Aug 12, 2008 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

then i sit corrected.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

crap

shoulda woulda coulda

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ransoming the future thought

The Crads had said they didn’t want to ransom or cost the future to win this year. I personally feel that moving waino back to the pen lies in that category. They have gotten to comfrotable in shuffling guys back and forth from pen to rotation. He was starting to make some good strides as a starter I’d hate to start that game with him. They have a big hill to climb to make the playoffs and the team is still hinged on a lof of justs and ifs.

I’d say if he’s not healthy take time and prep for 09.

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Aug 12, 2008 5:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

yeah

they did pass up a lot of opportunities to make the team better this year, so why not make sure he’s 100% before putting him in the bullpen? I’ll eat my own words if this whole works out great though

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

my concern wouldn't be based on

him doing well in the pen this year, but his move back to the rotation in 09..i would be concerned that it might take it’s toll..but he’s a big leager maybe he’d be just fine

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Aug 12, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

what kind of toll would it take?

I’m pretty sure he could handle pitching in the bullpen for the last month and a half of ‘08 and then move to the rotation in ‘09. I can’t believe there’d be any concern.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

to me it's just that hed

made such strides as a starter, then you have them move to the pen then back in the rotation. You put that on hold and then almost ask him to just be back where he left off. I could see a potential for hangover(if thats the right word). He’s only been back to starting for a yr and a half..

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Aug 12, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't

especially when it’s obvious he doesn’t even have a curveball right now. It’s not like this would all be done in a shroud of darkness and Adam wouldn’t know which way was up. Am I a starter today? Am I the closer? ARGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

I just don’t think theres any issue at all. He’s a big boy. He can take it.

In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

by Tackle Box on Aug 12, 2008 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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