toast, probably
by lboros on Aug 11, 2008 8:24 AM EDT
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Printwell, that game could hardly have turned out worse. i’ll get around to carpenter in a second, but first a quick look back on the wrigley series. it ultimately turned on just a couple of defensive plays for each side. the cubs made two excellent ones to win friday’s game --- soriano’s throw home to nail mather, and de rosa’s barehanded grab on the bunt by skip schumaker --- and the cardinals made two bads ones to lose last night’s game. our side pitched their asses off throughout, stifling a juggernaut offense for all but one inning, and the cardinal bats made pretty good contact all weekend; it wouldn’t have taken much at all for them to have swept the series, for what little that’s worth. it wouldn’t have taken much for them to have won 3 of 4 vs the brewers last month either. but this team has played with a thin margin for error all year --- too thin, lately, to hold up against good teams. they only won 1 of the most recent 7 games vs their two division rivals --- the only 1 in which they scored more than 3 runs.
we now await word on the severity of carpenter’s owie. i did some quick google research on triceps strains and learned john lackey sustained this injury during spring training this year and missed 8 weeks. came back with no ill effects, but still . . . . 8 weeks. on the other hand, ben sheets had a triceps strain in april of this year and only missed 1 start; he, too, came back without any drop in performance.
even if it’s just a mild strain and only costs carp a start or two, i hope the injury forces some reconsideration of wainwright’s role. carpenter has been on the shelf for 16 months; as awesome as he has looked, he still may not be (probably isn’t) quite ready to strap on the harness and haul the team through a playoff race. the cardinals owe him $45 million over the next 3 years; there’s nothing more important to this franchise then getting him in shape to throw effectively for those 3 years. they can survive if colby rasmus bombs or ryan ludwick proves a one-year fluke; they can survive if jaime garcia, mitch boggs, jess todd and clay mortensen all stink up the joint. but they’re toast if they spend $15m a year on a workhorse who can’t work. so they have to err way on the side of caution with carp, whether that means shutting him down for two starts, two weeks, or two months (ie, the rest of this year). and insofar as they can’t and shouldn’t count on him to anchor the rotation and deliver innings, that leaves only one other guy for the job: wainwright.
but wait: does this even matter? isn’t the season pretty much over now? i guess a lot of people think so; the schedule’s against us, the bullpen’s still a crapshoot, the team just can’t seem to stay healthy or score runs against good pitching staffs . . . . . and now carpenter’s hurt again and the rotation is as unstable as ever. screw it, we’re toast ---- right? well yeah, we’re probably toast; we’ve been probably toast since april. but probably isn’t the same as definitely. the cards are still within 3 games of a playoff spot, and there are 42 games left. a 3-game deficit can evaporate, against all reason, in a week; there are 7 weeks to go. 6 of stl’s next 9 games are against direct competitors for the wild-card, and our team will show up for those games (as i always tell myself in situations like these) and try to win them. it still seems worth my while to pay attention.
ask me again in 9 games. . . . .
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
esteemed VEB old-timer sjoshi wrote me a note the other day with an interesting bit of trivia about felipe lopez:
I was doing some research on a slow workday to try and figure out who the last starting Cardinals middle infielder with both a 20 home run and 20 steal season on his resume (note: not necessarily a 20-20 season). I didn't go back all the way, but I'm not sure it's ever happened. Far as I can tell, there are three Cardinal middle infielders with 20-hr seasons on their resume: Rogers Hornsby, Daryl Spencer and Alvin Dark. None of them ever stole more than 17 bases in a season --- Hornsby did that several times. Of course, Felipe Lopez has both a 20-hr and 20-steal season on his resume. Just goes to show what kind of talent this guy has, and how valuable he could be if they can get him turned around.
i did a little add-on research and came up with two more names. david bell played primarily 2b (started 65 games there) for st louis between 1995 and 1997, then later had two 20-hr seasons for seattle and san francisco (the second such year came after bell had shifted to 3b). as an aside, i had completely forgotten that bell was the starting 3b for the 116-win seattle mariners in 2001. he batted .260 / .303 / .415; how the hell’d they win 116 games with that player taking 500+ plate appearances at 3b? i’d sooner believe that they lost 116 . . . . ok, back on topic. the other st. louis middle infielder who hit 20 hr at least once in his career was eddie bressoud, who slugged 20 for the red sox in 1963 and won a championship ring with El Birdos in 1967 as the backup shortstop. talk about ballpark illusions --- bressoud hit 14 of his 20 hr that year in fenway park, where he had a .913 ops; in his road games in 1963, his ops was .628.
anyway, that’s it ---- in its entire history, the franchise has had only 5 middle infielders who posted a 20-homer season at least once in their careers. and only one of those guys posted 20 while playing MI for the cardinals: hornsby. am i the only person who didn’t know this? using baseball-reference’s incredible Play Index, i learned that there have only been 227 20-homer seasons by a middle infielder in all of baseball history, and a disproportionate share of them were logged by hornsby, ernie banks, alex rodriguez, cal ripken, jeff kent, ryne sandberg, et al. the number of individual MIs who have ever posted a 20-homer season is probably less than 100. even so, i’m mildly amazed that only one of those guys achieved the feat for the cards.
felipe lopez ain’t likely to do it either, but sjoshi’s hopeful outlook on the acquisition did cause me to take a closer look at the guy’s career. i was initially, and still am, unenthusiastic about the acquisition, but if i’m fair i have to admit this guy ain’t wilson delgado as a hitter. he does have talent --- was even a first-round draft pick 10 years ago, the 8th player chosen overall --- and he does have some secondary offensive skills; a little bit of power, draws a few walks, has good speed. he also is only 28 years old --- not a dead-end player chronologically. he may have reached a dead end talentwise, but that remains to be seen . . . . i’m certainly not suggesting he is the remedy to this team’s ailments, but sjoshi has led me to soften my critique; i’m not quite as down on lopez as i was at first. the cards are desperate for a middle infielder who can hit, and (as the above exercise shows) you don’t find guys like that lying around. they’re fairly rare commodities. the team couldn’t find a true solution affordably on the trade market (brian roberts probably wasn’t available unless rasmus was part of the deal), so they picked up a scrap from the free-talent heap and are hoping to get lucky. maybe he’ll turn out the way scott spiezio did, revive a left-for-dead career and become a good utility player. probably not, but you never know; it won’t cost anything to find out. there’s really not even any opportunity cost; it’s not as if brendan ryan was doing much with his roster spot. i’ve been an advocate of the kid, and i still love his glove, but he was always a marginal hitting prospect and his isolated power this year is .044. . . . . brian barden would have been a better choice to take ryan’s spot, but he’s over in china with the olympic team. d’angelo jimenez, anyone?
if we’re looking for things to criticize the front office and manager for, felipe lopez doesn’t rank near the top of my list. he’s in line behind mark mulder, anthony reyes, randy flores, joel pineiro, the insistence on using failed relievers in the late innings . . . . . and whatever criticisms i might make, they are still outweighed by my praise for the new regime. since taking over last october they have cleared a ton of dead weight away from the roster and established some promising new growth. still a lot of room for improvement, but i see more things to feel good about than i thought i would when the season began.
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OK, my little dose of
Monday morning optimism, iffy as it might be. Given how long Carp has been on the shelf, wouldn’t it be surprising if he did NOT have some kind of soreness show up in one of his first starts?
that's kind of how I saw it
this guy has been out for so long, and you know he was probably pressing a bit… especially in a game like that. we can’t just expect the guy to be 100%
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 11, 2008 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I have supported the Lopez thing all along, but even more so after reading that ...
the difference for me is that instead of getting guys that play hard and have no talent, we get a guy that has talent but doesn’t play hard. It is a whole lot easier to resolve the playing hard part than the talent part. I love a scrapper like Miles or Ryan or Eck as much as anyone else, but those guys have limitations that Lopez does not. Now, Lopez has a different sort of limitations, but if Pujols et al. were to take him under their wing, I think a lot of his commitment problems could be resolved. If not, cut him and no harm done.
Just from his few at bats with us already you can tell he is a different kind of player. Tony batting him in the 5 hole the other night, the plate presence, the good wood on the ball … I think this is a great move by the Cardinals with at least a decent shot of paying off handsomely.
His RBI single
in the 12 run game was beautiful. He saw an incredible pitch from Zambrano with two strikes, stuck the bat out…making decent contact…flipped his wrists and took off towards first in case it was on the ground. I think if we use him as a middle infielder (not an OFer, we don’t need another Hector Luna in the OF), then it’s an alright pickup. (Converted my stance since the original shock of it.)
A lot better post today than I thought there will be.
a.) waiting 9 days until being up or down on the team’s chances is a good idea. One series, even against the Cubs doesn’t mean jack. How we go from here will. By design, we’re still in this.
b.) Carp knows his body better than most. He’s never came across as a Mulder’ish “over optimistic, but ignore what the body is saying” type of guy. He got spooked, pretty much said as much post game. Everything checked out and he’s throwing a side session. Scream shut him down if you like, but I can’t see Carp wanting to do anything that may hurt his career, or ever be comparable to the Mulder situation.
c.) Waino to the pen is just silly, if we so happen to make the playoffs, what are we going to do, magically stretch him back out for a starters role? Because we seriously can’t be thinking of keeping him in the pen during Oct. Let him use August to get everything aligned, then let’s work him down the stretch of the last month.
d.) Lopez is high reward, low risk. However, he should be playing 2nd, not LF.
If we’re looking for things to criticize the front office and manager for, felipe lopez doesn’t rank near the top of my list. he’s in line behind mark mulder, anthony reyes, randy flores, joel pineiro, the insistence on using failed relievers in the late innings . . . . . and whatever criticisms i might make, they are still outweighed by my praise for the new regime. since taking over last october they have cleared a ton of dead weight away from the roster and established some promising new growth. still a lot of room for improvement, but i see more things to feel good about than i thought i would when the season began.
Exactly.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Aug 11, 2008 8:58 AM EDT reply actions
he should be playing SS, IMO
20 HR MI’s are difficult to find. 20 HR LF’s are pretty easy to find. If he’s going to be on the roster, he needs to be playing a MI spot and the biggest hole is at SS. He may end up adding nothing over Izturis b/c of the defensive difference—that remains to be seen. Still, as bad as our offense has been at the SS position, it’s worth finding out.
no excuse for playing LF
i would take him at 2B or SS, but his glove scares me a little at SS with this pitching staff. At 2B that takes away from Miles and his slightly above average year, which is a little more than i think we will get from FLopez.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
Edmonds situation
Surely I’m not the first person to hear Edmonds attribute his turn-around to getting off the medication for post-concussive syndrome that he’d been taking since he was in St. Louis. At what point do we start thinking maybe this was a pretty huge medical mistake by the Cards (and possibly a big reason why Edmonds is pissed at them)?
Edmonds has 14 homers in 176 ABs for the Cubs. Supposing he hit homers at that pace for a full season (which, for Edmonds, is about 475 ABs)—that’s 37 home runs. Are you going to tell me we wouldn’t rather have that than Skippy in a corner OF position this year?
Just saying.
Personally
I’m enjoying having Skip where he is; he’s done a pretty damn good job. We need some guys who can hit for average and get on base.
Now if you want to ask who I’d take between Edmonds and Felipe Lopez, we’re entering a whole ‘nother territory there.
On with the (good) youth movement!
Are you saying
that you would rather have Skip in LF than a Jim Edmonds who hits 37 HRs or are you saying you don’t believe Edmonds could hit 37 HRs.
FWIW, I don’t think Edmonds would have been happy playing a corner OF position, so to me the point is moot.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
I don't think there is any way.....
Edmonds would have hit 37 HR’s this year. The biggest reason he is hitting so well now, is Wrigley Field.
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 11, 2008 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Jim Edmonds would NOT have hit 37 home runs this year because of ONE reason
Because he’s NOT going to hit 37 home runs. Period. End of Paragraph.
He’s got 15 right now. Does anyone really think he’s going to hit 22 the rest of the way?
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
whoa!
Did you read what mojowo said?
Supposing he hit homers at that pace for a full season (which, for Edmonds, is about 475 ABs)—that’s 37 home runs.
I don’t think anyone said he’d hit 22 the rest of the way.
I know
but why are we supposing he’d hit 37 home runs? He hasn’t and isn’t going to come anywhere close to it. And it was more in response to giveml who asked if aet15 would rather have “Skip playing left field or an Edmonds who hits 37 HRs or are you saying Edmonds couldn’t hit 37 HRs?”
We aren’t making predictions here. We’re basically talking about he past and present.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I still love JEd
but I don’t think he is going to hit 37 HRs – this year, next year, or any other future year. I was just puzzled by aet15’s response that seemed to state he would rather have Skip than a left fielder who could hit 37 HRs. Didn’t mean to get anyone excited.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
But you're talking about an imaginary Jim Edmonds
Would you rather have Skip playing left field or an Ozzie Canseco who hits 45 home runs a year? It’s basically the same question.
aet15 simply likes Skip over Edmonds, and I don’t disagree with him at all and I have an extremely difficult time using projections to predict things that have already happened. No hard feelings and no one on this computer is getting excited.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I wouldn't call it imaginary
After all, Edmonds is hitting at a 37-HR pace with the Cubs. Ozzie Canseco didn’t hit a single homer in his short career…so I don’t see how it’s the same question.
So you're saying that you think he'll hit 37 home runs this year?
Or are you ignoring the first two months of the season?
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
No.
I’m saying he’s hitting at a 37-homer pace with the Cubs, so it’s not fair to inject Ozzie Canseco into the discussion. That doesn’t mean I think he’s going to hit 37 this year – I just think his performance with the Cubs thus far is more indicative of his abilities than what he did with the Padres.
Fine
you do. I don’t. Whatever.
Doesn’t change the fact this this is all done in hindsight. In the offseason I did approve of the trade. And I still do.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
let me get this straight
You think Edmonds is really more of a .178/.265/.233 hitter than what he’s been with the Cubs?
I don't remember saying that
but I think he’s somewhere closer to where he’s been the past 3 or 4 years.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
You're blowing this way out of proportion
The original question was: supposing the post-medicine Edmonds we are seeing with the Cubs could sustain production over a full year (475 ABs), would you rather have Skippy or that hypothetical Edmonds? It wasn’t even a real question, it was rhetorical. Obviously you take the .273/.374/.597 Cubs-Edmonds. Skippy is good, but not that good.
The real debate here was whether the Cardinals bear any responsibility for creating the Padres-Edmonds. I don’t think you can ignore the first two months, but if Edmonds really did stop taking his medication when he was cut by the Padres and is now seeing a little more clearly, then you have to consider it in a different light. How much are the Cardinals medical staff responsible for Edmonds staying on his medication too long and nearly tanking his career? None of us can really know, but I was just throwing it out there for consideration.
Dude, did you read?
He said if you was on this pace the ENTIRE season. Meaning take away those first 2 months. I agree he probably wouldn’t have hit at that pace over an entire season, but who knows.
But he's NOT hitting at that pace for the entire season
If “if’s” and “buts” were candy and nuts, we’d all have a Merry Christmas.
He was recovering from post-concussion syndrome which is one of the biggest mysteries in the medical field. No one has a time-frame for recovery and no one has a list of symptoms and their severity. I don’t see how any of this could be attributed to the Cardinals medical staff.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Dude lighten up
It was a hypothetical discussion, those are all about ifs. We know the facts, yes but that doesn’t stop people from playing the guessing game. If you don’t like those types of discussions then don’t post in one. You knew what it was before you posted the first time.
Drop the "Dude" shit.
I get that you’re trying to goad me into something…....Dude.
It’s a stupid argument about hypotheticals that you guys obviously want to harp on and it’s become tiresome to argue about a mythical Jim Edmonds and what he might have done if a pixie magically healed his noggin. My part of this ridiculous discussion is done.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Then quit arguing about it...
and let those of us that find this discussion interesting continue without your input. If all you have to say is the post is stupid…let it prove that on its own by lack of response.
sorry
I use dude a lot, I am not “goading”. It wasn’t meant as a derogatory term in anyway. And thanks for being done, but please don’t call any discussion ridiculous just because you don’t like it, others may not think that way. I personally don’t care either way and wouldn’t have posted in this topic if it was for trying to get you to stop with the unnecessary arguments.
Holy hell, relax
If we never talking about hypotheticals, this site would have about 14 comments and I could just read Yahoo! game recaps to learn about the Cardinals.
As for the “dude” thing…well, I don’t know what your aversion is to being called “dude,” but I guess I’ll make sure to never address you as such.
No offense, Tackle
But you’re the one who charged headlong into his hypothetical question with the attitude.
You seem awfully cranky…as if the Cubs had just beaten us 2/3 at Wrigley while we simultaneously lost our ace starter for a while to an injury, or something.
You might consider taking a break. The belligerence is unbecoming, and you can do better.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
So is this really the question?
Would you rather have Skip Schumaker as is, or would you like to have a Jim Edmonds who could reasonably put together a .265/22 hr/65 rbi season…while Ludwick platoons with Skip Schumaker and only has 1/2 to 2/3 of his production that he is at?
No again.
The original question had nothing to do with Ludwick. It was purely hypothetical. Who would you rather have, Edmonds or Skip, straight up?
OK
So I was trying to transfer it to reality. If we’re going completely hypothetical, why can’t we just have picked up Bonds and him not be a knucklehead. It’s hypothetical.
Why is this so hard for you and TB to understand?
Are you simply trying to sound smarter than mojo? He simply said since JEd quit the meds he is hitting homeruns at a pace that would equal 37 over a 475 AB season. He didn’t say JEd would/could play enough games to get 475 AB’s nor did he say he would hit 37 HR’s if he did. Given that Edmonds is playing All Star Caliber baseball would we rather have him than Skip? There is no reason that Edmonds would take away AB’s from the RH’d hitting Ludwick unless you think we have to have a speedster with little power in the leadoff spot.
A speedster with little power
that is playing better than the “all-star” Fukudome in the same outfield as the “hypothetical all-star” edmonds.
In his hypothetical, though, Edmonds was completely healthy all year and hitting 37 HR, so in a way he did say “he would hit 37HR’s.”
Here's a thought...
let’s add something to this argument that has nothing to do with it like how a guy made the allstar team because he’s Japanese.
Also, I don’t see how Mojo’s hypothetical situation is so outlandish. Player A is playing well…what if he could do this for a full season…would we rather have him than player B?
What's your point?
I don’t care how good Skippy has been, he hasn’t been a more valuable player than a guy who (in this little thought exercise which you seem to be confusing with reality) could put up 37 HR. It hardly matters that he’s been better than a joke of an All-Star selection…how is that at all relevant to what we’re talking about? Why is Fukudome even being mentioned?
If you don’t like the hypothetical, don’t argue about it. But don’t start trying to say that I’m claiming Edmonds can hit 37 homers this year. All I said was that if his tenure with the Cubs was sustained over 475 ABs, it would total to 37 homers. Then, using your imagination, I asked that you imagine that we had this player, this hypothetical post-med Edmonds. Would he not be better than Skippy? Yes, of course he would. Hardly matters that Skippy is better than Fukudome.
he hasnt even been as valuable as JEd
this year let alone the hypothentical version…
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
He's not going to put 37 homers
in ANY season because he no longer bats against lefties. He has 44 at bats this year against lefthanders and he is hitting 167 .205 .262 .466.
it's not what STLfan thinks
it’s what TLR thinks. And earlier in the year, we were indeed seeing the ridiculous spectacle of Skip taking PA’s away from Ludwick because TLR “needed a leadoff man”.
If Edmonds was healthy, and still with our team, it’s not hard to imagine that Ludwick would have struggled to get PA’s.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
I can't argue with that...
but if in this scenario Ludwick played the way he has this season…Edmonds probably wouldn’t have taken away anymore AB’s than Schumaker has. If Edmonds was able to play for STL at the level he is playing for Chicago…Skip would be our 4th OFer. I think Larussa would get creative and use high OBP players with pop in the top of the lineup…Edmonds/Glaus. IMO Edmonds would make a great leadoff hitter for this lineup:
Edmonds
Miles
Pujols
Ludwick
Glaus
Ankiel/Mather
Molina
Pitcher
Iz2/Lopez/Ryan
present OPS+
JEd: 112 (147 with cubs!)
Skip: 106
skip is better definsivley but as a corner OF im not sure the gap is that big.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
Now here is a less hypothetical argument
that I can get my arms around. I would be the last guy to shed any blood defending defensive metrics, but they are all we have. According to RZR, JEd is having a better season than Skip as a defender. In fact, he is on pace to have his finest defensive season in several years. The only advantage Skip has is in outfield assists and that is often more an indicator of which players opposing teams choose to run on than anything else.
While I would still hedge my bets a bit before declaring Edmonds is clearly a better defensive player than Skip, I think it is very difficult to make the opposite argument.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Edmonds can get on base with the best of them
and always has…if he could hit 37 hr, very unlikely but, it would be a huge upgrade over Skip even though he is a better defender than JEd now…like giveml says im not so sure he would be ok with a corner spot or for that matter we would put him in a corner spot…
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
I cannot consider it a medical mistake IN ANY WAY
1. I still think moving him was the right thing to do
2. It’s his head. His brain. We cannot screw with someone’s life like that. Period. You have to err on the side of caution.
I know
I’m sort of just playing devil’s advocate. But you do have to realize that if whatever he was prescribed to here in STL was messing him up, then that medical error nearly cost the guy his career.
You make a valid point
I wonder how long people are usually on this type of drug.
What if discontinuing the med
is good for baseball, but bad for his brain?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Or what if his brain
needed that time to recover to a point he no longer needed the medication?
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I don't doubt that it did
But assuming he’s fine now, if I were him I’d wonder about why nobody bothered to tell me that after a while I’d feel good enough to play baseball without the medication (and thus, better).
you may be right
but I can’t help but wonder if it’s helping him long term. I’m no dr. and am not even going to attempt to play one on the internet, but we’re talking about a brain injury. Making sure you’re healed from that is more important than baseball and I hope that Jimmy isn’t making a huge mistake, long-term, in order to play a respectable last couple of years of baseball.
As for it being a reason he’s pissed at the organization, I think it goes straight to Tony’s telling him he’d be a platoon player and then for his kind words more recently. He may be pissed about the trade as well though I think that stems again from his being turned into a platoon player. I do think that part of what Rolen was so pissed about was perceived misdiagnoses (not saying he was right; I don’t have the foggiest idea) and a perceived desire by Tony to push him to play when he was hurt. That may have planted a seed in Edmonds’ head that has caused some lingering bad feelings (sorry for the horrible pun, but it’s apropos.)
He can't be pissed about the trade
since he specifically asked for a trade and preferred that trade be to a team in So. Cal. Maybe he was bluffing and is pissed the team called him on it? If so, he’s got no one to be pissed at other than himself. But, I do agree with you in that he probably felt slighted at the thought of being a platoon player on a team had had ruled for so long. It’s easier to take that role with a new team, but when you see guys like Taguchi, Skip and Ankiel taking away your playing time (significant chunks)...........
As for Rolen, I feel as though he’s also to blame. His whole thing with LaRussa stemmed from when he was hurting (the shoulder) and refused to acknowledge it. It was painfully obvious that he couldn’t perform and when LaRussa benched him, he felt offended. The fact that he had such a great LCS is more likely due to the rest he received in the LDS as anything else.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I meant
that maybe he was pissed that he felt he was in the position (platooning) where he felt he was no longer wanted and had to ask for the trade.
W/ Rolen, I wasn’t placing the blame on anyone. I was only commenting on what Rolen’s perception and, therefore, Edmonds’ perception might have been.
He wasn't even in a platooning situation...
With Skip, Ankiel, and Duncan all being lefties and ahead of him, when would he play? Never.
Not that far down
Skip wouldn’t be on the team, and he would probably have had more playing time than Dunc too.
I love Jimmy
But I don’t think he would be pissed about being traded. He had spent the previous year proving his futility to his team and we had other options waiting in the wings in Rasmus and Ankiel. As the guy who was always willing to defer money and help out the club financially, I think Edmonds understood the business of the game. Maybe he did feel slighted, but I don’t think that he really should have.
I think there was something else, something behind closed doors that none of us will ever know.
You know, this whole thing
might just relate to TLR’s stupid comments a few weeks ago. I blame Tony, and only Tony.
But of course don’t put it past the Chitown or STL press corps to encourage a little feud.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 11, 2008 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Toast
lboros used that term today to refer to the Cardinals chances. He used that very term to refer to Edmonds before he came to the Cubs. Obviously, Edmonds has proved him wrong (with a huge assist from the short power alleys and “every game is like a playoff game” atmosphere of Wrigley Field.) I am sure LB would be more than pleased to see the 2008 Cards make like Jed and prove that they are not, in fact, toast.
Oh, and I am not sure at all that Jed would have accepted a corner position, as you propose. I love the guy buy you know there’d be some serious pouting going on if he had to shift to right or left.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 11, 2008 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Jimmy said he'd play right field
I believe it was the “not playing every day” he had a problem with.
he didn't accept a corner position...
IIRC, they approached him about playing time (platoon) and shifting (to RF) and he asked to be traded instead.
Carp Update
On the rotoworld sidebar it says he thinks he can make his next start and will throw on the side today.
I don’t know how to feel about that.
On with the (good) youth movement!
He's throwing tomorrow
his normal side session
My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.
Official Site
Has this very heartening quote:
“As of right now they think it’s just a slight triceps strain,” Carpenter said. “We’re going to wait and see what happens the next two days. I was able to do all my exercises afterward, all my rotator cuff exercises. It’s not sore. We couldn’t reproduce the soreness or the feeling that I felt.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Fake injury to allow bullpen warmup?
I have not checked the game thread. Has there been any discussion that Carpenter’s injury was just a ruse to get the bullpen extra time to warm up? This was hotly debated in my section at the game last night.
That's evidently what the idiots at Wrigley thought
or claimed to have thought while they were booing Carpenter. There’s some shrewdness for you. Taking out your ace in the middle of a batter and faking an injury to allow our sucktastic LOOGy to warm up longer. Lots of baseball experts at Wrigley. They really know LaRussa don’t they?
by Red in Chicago on Aug 11, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup, according to those "experts"
LaRussa is a head hunter and it was only a matter of time before he went after Edmonds. Probably around the 5th inning of the Saturday game.
It made me laugh to read all the hate spewed at LaRussa when Edmonds had flipped his bat towards the Cardinal dugout and then said what he supposedly said to the St. Louis media. LaRussa didn’t do a thing in response to it yet somehow he was the villain and those idiots, er experts, were planning on who and how many Cardinals to bean in retaliation to something that never happened.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I'll admit it.....
I wanted Edmonds buzzed.
Of course, I would have plunked a couple of Brewers earlier too.
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 11, 2008 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
wanting to give an opposing player chin music
has been…or at least was…part of the game for hundreds of years. What affect do you think it would have on gibby if he got ejected for every high-in fastball? Just as long as you don’t be hypocritical about it, it’s just part..or should be…part of the game.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
I agree.....
And I thought TLR was more in line with that brand of thinking, but he hasn’t been this year. Or maybe I’m just cranky.
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 11, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly
You just sound cranky to me. I don’t mind beaning guys, but it’s not just something you do whenever you’re mad at a guy. It’s a form of policing the game. If a guy goes in with his spikes up or runs over your catcher unnecessarily or slides 18 feet out of the baseline to upend your MIF on a double-play…that’s a situation that calls for beaning. These are in-game occurrences, part of the action. This outrage and calling for beaning because guys untucked their shirts or flipped their bats…just relax. It’s not that big of a deal. A little showy, sure, but not worth getting into a beanfest over. You better believe that if Edmonds got beaned, Pujols would get beaned. Is that worth the risk? Do we really need a ball hitting Pujols in the wrist and knocking him out for the year? Hell, Edmonds has always stood at home plate (bouncing on that back leg a few times) on his real moonshot homers. Pujols watches his homers, too—and he does that little thing where he drops his bat right on the plate sometimes if you walk him. Nobody ever beans him for it.
As for throwing high-and-tight…well, buzz Edmonds if you want, but I seriously doubt it’s going to do much good. He got buzzed a lot when he was with us in STL and it never affected him.
Well...
If Pinella follows the “rules” of beaning, then it wouldn’t be Pujols that got plunked. You try to pick a similar player on the other team. It’d probably be Molina or Glaus…but that’s just me being picky.
I don't know if you noticed
But Edmonds has a .971 OPS with the Cubs. That puts him right below Ludwick and Pujols and right above Glaus in OPS+. I hardly think Lou cares too much about Edmonds’ first two months with the Padres, after all.
Okay, so maybe they bean Ludwick. That situation isn’t really making me feel better about the whole beaning thing.
hundreds of years...?
;-)
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Aug 11, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Take away all the other history with Edmonds
if another players starred into the dugout and flipped his bat towards the team after a HR, the next one would have been in his ear.
The Cardinals let Edmonds take a dump on them or LaRussa.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 11, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh dearie
Will we ever be the same? How shall this team recover?
This overblown pride nonsense is garbage. So Jim “Hollywood” Edmonds felt the need to stir the pot. Do we really need to throw a bunch of habanero peppers in and stir it some more?
If Jim wants to be a bitch, let him be a bitch. He looks silly for it, quite frankly. When we start throwing at people, we get into another one of these TLR/player back-and-forth bitchfests like we had with Rolen. Then who looks like the dumbass? We do, of course.
Give me a break. The Cardinals pride will be fine. They’re big boys (well, except Miles).
Cute.
This isn’t the first time you and I have argued over beaning. I don’t know why I bother when this is what you have to contribute.
You were patronizing
‘Oh dearie. How shall this team recover?’
Don’t talk down to people unless you would prefer like in return.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 11, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Look in
the mirror, my friend. You’re just as patronizing, on a regular basis, as anyone else on this site, including me. This is the kind of crap that keeps me from commenting most days, because VEB has become a slightly less vitrolic version of the stltoday forums.
by cardsrul on Aug 11, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've seen that replay several times
Edmonds kinda’ glanced right tossed bat lightly to the right and headed on around the bases with his head down. He did not stare at anybody, he did not throw the bat anywhere near the Cards dugout. The Cards dugout is on the 1st base line to the right. What was he supposed to do? Turn around and sling backwards toward the Cubs dugout. Find some other shit to harp about.
it's unfortunate
that Tony kind of started this thing though. although Edmonds is acting childish too
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 11, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
how can anyone
outside of Tony or Jimmy know who started this whole thing?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
As much as I want to throw it away now...
And take the easy way out, I’ll give them longer than nine days, I think where there stand coming home from Arizona on Sept 3rd will tell us the final story: Less than five games out with 22 to play, I’ll give them a fighting chance, especially with six left against the Cubs. Beyond that, though, it’ll be looking grim.
My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.
Was anything said postgame
about pulling Kennedy? I don’t know if I’ve ever seen TLR pull a veteran like that. The lovely, talented ESPN announcing team didn’t say much (of course, I was skipping FFing and REVersing and keeping an eye on the Olympics as well….).
yeah
i kinda found that to be kind of insulting to Adam
we didnt pull Izzy after he basically stepped all over that squibber against LA
hopefully Kennedy can shrug it off
but he hasnt been treated that well this year period
when he finally started hitting, we benched him in favor of miles for 5 out of 7 games
hopefully he sees it as tony being tony
and i do know its the double switch that made the most sense
but the timing kinda bit
Come on 2009!
I thought it was a logical double switch
just ill timed so it kind of looked like Kennedy was being punished.
My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.
I agree
I think that TLR makes that move with or without the error. If AK makes the routine play and rolls two, he gets yanked after the inning in the double switch. He didn’t, and he got yanked mid-inning, which made it appear like he was being punished.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It was a typical Tony Larussa
late inning move that he makes nightly with 2nd base. As Alxfritz said it was just ill timed that Kennedy had just made the error. Had someone else made the error, the move would still have been made under the same circumstances.
$3.5 mil says he is being treated just fine...
with his OPS he is lucky to be able watch a baseball game let a lone play it.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
VEB quote of the day.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Simple double switch
with AK being the last out the previous inning and the bench containing a bunch of 2bers
role reversal
at a minimum, carp should be put on a lower pitch count. if that is high enough to make starting feasible, then ok. if not, then waino has to start and carp has to go to the pen. if waino can’t get to sarting condition, then none of the speculation matters. i agree we need both arms as effective as possible as many times as possible WITHOUT jeopordizing their performance in 09. we have an outside shot at the wildcard, but that’s about it. i’m down on flopez in general, but if they caught a miracle, ok i guess. certainly going into next season with iz2 and kennedy soaking up the vast majority of salary allocated to the middle infield, means they’ll be lucky to contend for a wc next year. significant changes are still needed.
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
not on the hook for Izturis next year
He’s only signed for this year, at $2.85 million. We’re still stuck w/Kennedy for ‘09, though, to the tune of $4 million.
i know
but do you really believe ryan will be the ss next year? i suspect with a half-way decent finish they’ll at least try to resign iz2 and it won’t be more less money than this year.
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
I'm not so sure about that.....
I really think we’ll try to find another SS. I’m not very optimistic about our chances, but I think we’ll try. Izturis would be a last option type signing, I hope.
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 11, 2008 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I can't imagine
we will fight a bunch of competition to sign Izturis, so I would imagine they will go looking for a better option as well.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Let's just say.....
I’ll be disappointed if they don’t. That is by FAR the easiest place to upgrade this team…..well, that and the pen.
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 11, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
SS is not at all
an easy place to upgrade the team. Granted, it’s the worst part of the starting 8, but SS’s are not easy to find at all. That’s why we have Izturis. I, too, hope we find someone better than Izturis but I’m less confident than you about our ability to do so.
A few posts above.....
I said I wasn’t very optimistic about our chances…..but the truth is, isn’t nearly anybody an upgrade? Surely we can find SOMEBODY that can hit .280 and field the position.
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 11, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
They have 30 million to spend and not many positions to fill
They better find a better starting SS than Izturis.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
If we put him on a much lower pitch count...
then he needs to go to the ‘pen. He had only thrown 60 pitches or so when he got hurt.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
Exactly
a starting pitcher with a pitch count of 50 helps nothing.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Felipe Lopez is Cesar Izturis
another player living off the glory of years past. His skills have all deteriorated to the point where he lacks any average rated tool. The worst thing that can happen is that Lopez hits well and the Cardinals think they’ve got a “find” only to see him bomb next year. The better but still bad thing is that he bombs this year.
Some players (i.e. Iztuirs, Lopez) just peak earlier than others. This is a no-win acquisition.
Thank you
When they both batted consecutively last night, with their horrendous offensive statistics and similar stances, I thought to myself, “My goodness, we have two Izturises now. Heaven help us.” They create a supermassive black hole in our lineup. It’s horrible.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
binary dark star?
wikipedia tells me that dark stars are both a theoretical star that predates the idea of a black hole, and a more recent theoretical star that involves dark matter. either way, a binary dark star is a way to describe the izturis/lopez combo that sounds way more awesome even though they kinda suck at hitting. it could also be a really nerdy metal band of some sort.
canadian alt rock band....
that is possibly the ugliest looking genre i’ve seen in a long time…ranks right up there with Polish Hip Hop
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
but AZ, you'd have to admit
scott spiezio didn’t score out very well either heading into 2006. nor did mabry or lankford score very well heading into 2004. all of them were used-to-bes (and all on the wrong side of 30) who appeared to have lost all their skills — but, as it turned out, still had a few useful skills left. if you think about it very hard, i’m sure you can come up with many other examples.
the odds are always against it, but i wouldn’t put the odds of success at zero.
And
don’t forget the restorative powers of being in a lineup much mroe dangerous than the Nationals’.
more at bats with guys on base, more at bats with good bats behind you.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Aug 11, 2008 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Offensively
it’s a better track record, but it still seems like nothing but a shot in the dark.
Especially considering Barton has to be up by Tuesday. Who’s going down this week, anyway?
Even with the rest belated, everything is antiquated
Are you writing from the heart?
Are you writing from the heart?
yeah, shot in the dark
but it’s a free shot . . . . prob’y miss, but it won’t cost anything. if barden had been available and they’d passed him over for felipe, i’d be more frustrated by this move. but under the circumstances i can live with it. i don’t see any better options.
But Barton was available, right?
He wasn’t on the DL when they acquired Lopez. He was on a rehab assignment and one that probably wasn’t necessary in the first place.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Ah the great Brian Barden vs. Brian Barton debacle
I knew, if given enough time, that I’d screw those two names up.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
I suppose I have less of a problem with this as a particular
than with this as the way the seem to operate their club at certain positions.
That said, the club hopes too much for another version of Tony Womack and Abraham Nunez. These types of bids fail more often than they succeed, imo—I’ll see your Spiezio and raise you a Spivey. I’d rather have seen them bring up a bat that can do some actual pinch hitting damage like Josh Phelps. I’ve yet to understand the need for 4 middle infielders who can’t hit and until that’s explained, I don’t see what Lopez does for this team.
I couldn't disagree more.....
Lopez has looked quite solid since coming over. Even last night, I know one of his AB’s resulted in a pretty decent line out to RF. I don’t think it has anything to do with deteriating talents. Call it a funk, call it getting out of whack, call it an attitude/mental/work ethic thing…..I don’t care. But I can see from his AB’s that he can still hit.
I hope you are right that he can still hit
but I am afraid we have collectively lowered the bar because we have such pervasive suckitude from our MIs. When Aaron Miles is the only MI with an OPS+ above 73 then we have a problem. BTW, Lopez’ OPS+ is 64 for the season and 51 in his brief tenure as a Cardinal.
I think he kind of looks like an athlete, but with his well-documented defensive shortcomings I want to see some XBH pop right away or move on.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
I can't believe you and I saw the same guy
You think he’s looked solid?
I’ve seen a lot of seeing-eye singles that managed to roll their way through the infield defense, and a lucky “excuse me” check swing bloop that happened to fall in for an RBI.
I haven’t seen much of anything from Lopez that makes me think his awful numbers are a “funk”...unless it’s a “career funk.” THAT I’d agree with.
I’ve got no problem giving him more chances since they already sent Ryan down (but NOT in LF, dammit), but I don’t think Lopez is any better than Izturis offensively…and that’s really, really bad.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
asruavatar
off subject, but can you tell me why Future Redbirds has become so slow in loading pages for the last week and is there a fix. It has really become a pain.
most likely server resources getting ate by an over selling hosting company.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
That's almost as disgraceful
as feasting on lower horn.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 11, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
now that a poplar you dont want to nippler on...
yeah, i tried too hard
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Aug 11, 2008 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
haha,
nibbler…not nippler
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Aug 11, 2008 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
He might be Izturis
even if he can hit, if his defense is truly as bad as advertised. Does it matter if you add 10 runs to the offense if you subtract 10 runs from the defense? Still, while it may be a no-win proposition, I feel that, as long as he plays 2b and SS, it’s a no-lose proposition. Ryan wasn’t doing anything for us and Lopez is just 28 and has the track record of being a solid hitter. Whether that would be enough to overcome his defensive shortcomings, I don’t know but I’d like to get the chance to fifnd out. It can’t hurt either, as long as he plays 2b or SS.
Except that
it takes Miles out of the lineup if you play him at 2b because Iz2 is the only shortstop with any skills defensively. Miles is the only MI hitting at all.
What does 2009 offer for SS..
Lets say the Cards don’t sign Izturis and Lopez is not signed by the Cards.
I can’t believe they would be dumb enough to play B. Ryan at SS next year. He is not a guy I want to see as the starting SS.
I just don’t know what the plan is. I guess a main hot stove discussion will revolve around the SS position. I just don’t know who would be available.
The same five guys who are always available
It’s the middle-infield merry-go-round. Yawn.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 11, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
would be nice if the cards had an internal solution....
Seems like SS…....
But between Ryan, Izturis, and Lopez….... Lopez really has the most offensive upside in my opinion.
Kozma won't be ready by next spring.
But we’ve got a nice surplus in the outfield at both AA and AAA. Isn’t this supposed to be a textbook trade situation?
by Red in Chicago on Aug 11, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem with that is
outfielders are much easier to come by than middle infielders. If you have middle infield talent, and no one else does, then you can raise the price to where you see fit and have your pick from a number of teams who have a wealth in good, young outfielders.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
or the next Spring,
most likely…
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
there is no internal solution
for probably 3 years unless Tyler Greene miraculously becomes legitimate. I wouldn’t count on it. We’re going to have to find one from another organization.
Barden
Is Barden legit? If so he might be an option. otherwise I think it will probably be through trade
He's fringe
He could probably be passable (i.e. replacement level), but he’s not going to come up and blow the world away like Aviles has for the Royals.
Speaking of Aviles…holy crap, he’s been ridiculous.
If Barden is fringe
then Greene is ‘out of orbit, floating away in space’.
Barden is a better hitter than Ryan, Izturis and Kennedy. His defense is up for debate, no doubt, but he has been able to hold his own at Memphis. Even got an invite to be in the Olympics.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 11, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
Barden to me should be here in Sept, I want to see what he can do, he was good his last Sept. He has a decent bat and is avg D, I would take that right now.
he had a 42 OPS+ last September.
I don’t think we can really say “he’s a better hitter than kennedy, ryan or izturis”. He’s PROBABLY a better hitter, but this is his 5th year in AAA and he has a .794 OPS. That’s not exactly Joe Mather or Ryan Ludwick “light AAA on fire and force them to call you up” performance.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
FWIW using the
MLE calculator at minorleaguesplits.com, Barden’s 2008 memphis numbers translate to a .676 OPS at the MLB level. (.256/.309/.367)
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
sign me up...
Iz2 – .249/.318/.304
Ryan – .242/.299/.286
really they need to find a better term for slugging % when you’re “slugging” around .300…something like occasional gap power %?
No disagreement here
I mean, I did say he would be replacement level, which would certainly be better than Ryan/Iz2/Kennedy. I just don’t think he’s a world-beater or anything. It’s a matter of how you interpret the label of “legit,” I guess. I wouldn’t want him as a long-term solution at short, but he’s almost certainly better than what we’ve got now.
Go Team USA, I guess.
What about?
Would the Tigers accept a Brendan Ryan for Edgar Renteria type of deal in the offseason? Ryan has no shot here in the future. The Tigers have a lineup in which one player (presumably batting 8th or 9th) can be a defensive type without much offense. The Cardinals will have a little bit of salary room to take on Renteria’s ridiculous contract. It would be a serious salary dump for Detroit, but one that could pay off since Edgar can hardly hit his weight in the AL.
the tigers might not even exercise his option
but would he be worth signing? He’ll be 33, his defense is bad, and he might not be able to hit.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
yeah...I know
that’s why I didn’t say to go out and sign him. If we got him for a player who is not going anywhere in the organization (much like Reyes wasn’t) then no harm.
I LOVE Edgar
i mean i had a serious man crush when he was here but i just dont want him back…i think he is done being a productive shorstop for a contender his bat would no doubt be better than what we have but his defense is too far gone esp for a groundball staff…
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
Ironic note on our defense
from
http://www.sportsnet.ca/thewire/baseball/2008/08/10/defense_is_overlooke/
“If the Cardinals’ current pace continues, they will commit just 77 errors. That would match their total in 2003, which, ironically, was one of only two times in this decade they haven’t made the playoffs.”
Irony on last night
I thought we had our best D MIF out there last night with Iz2 and AK. But they turned out to be big factors in our loss. It was dissapointing last night, but they have been very solid this year.
On another note, I think our hitters are being a bit too aggressive with man on base. I thought Dempster was throwing nowhere near the strike zone with men on and our hitters were getting themselves out. Mather did seem to improve though as the game progressed and drew a walk. I can’t complain, though. Sometimes that aggressivenss leads to crooked innings.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
Thoughts.....
- I’d say WE were closer to sweeping this series then the Cubs were. Nothing about game two was a fluke. The Cubs got blasted, plain and simple. On the other hand, the first game was a one-run game where the Cards missed numerous opportunities, and last night, was much of the same. Before the Cubs scored 5 in the 6th, the Cards should have been up a couple of runs.
The Cubs are good, but I don’t think they’ll make the WS. Just seems like a team ready for a choke-job if you ask me.
- Hopefully Carp is okay. If his quotes are to be taken seriously, he doesn’t think he is going to miss much time, which is good.
- Offense has to start scoring guys when we get the chances. Pujols CANNOT pop out to the infield with two guys on, one out, and a 3-1 count. I think Mather and Glaus both swung at bad pitches up in the count too. What ever happened to sitting on a pitch, in a zone, in that situation?
- I still like the Lopez signing. Gives us flexibility, and I still see signs that the kid can hit. He’s done some good things since signing, looked solid, and played good defense. Expect to see him in the lineup tonight as well…..he’s 5-13 against Sanchez.
A series we should have won
We did lose the series with baserunning blunders and fielding errors, but the sign of a good club is one that takes advantage of its opponent’s mistakes. That’s what the Cubs did. That’s why they won the series. That’s why they are in first place. It’s frustrating that our refrain this season has often been, “We shoulda won.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
the refrain has to be "we shoulda won"
when we lose because of dumb mental mistakes like:
- not staying down on a ground ball
- putting in the same player to pitch in clutch situations that CANNOT pitch in clutch situations.
Exactly
Or, run into outs like Friday. Or, bring Franklin and/or Izzy in to close out a close game.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Opposite of how we won in 2006
Detriot kept screwing up and we took advantage of the errors. Friday’s game falls on the offense not coming through with more than 2 runs. Not gonna win many with only 2 runs.
Agreed, partially
Look back at the game. Carp was dealing and if not for the big, fat, error by Luddy, its still scoreless going into the 6th. Carp is still pitching very effectively. Base hit, no big deal. Next batter hits a routine ground ball (potential double play ball) that squirts right through AK 6-4-3’s wickets. Before you know it, one run will score, two runs will score, etc. Okay, so that puts us down 3-0, if we escape that inning right then.
Didnt happen though. Iz2 makes a dive at a ball that, to me, looked like he couldve handled standing up, slipped past him into the outfield. Then, the wheels come off.
So, lets recap. Without Luddy’s “E”, were tied. Without AK 6-4-3’s “E” were still tied (hypothetically). So, were tied 0-0 going into the 7th when we score our 2r’s. Look out, were up by two. This is where I agree with you, 2 R’s vs. the Cubs isnt going to win you many games; theyre too good a team.
What I dont agree with is you saying that this “game falls on the offense not coming through with more than two runs.” The defense let us down tremendously. I cant really recall a game that weve played recently where we played that bad on defense.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Aug 11, 2008 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't disagree with your assessment of the Small Bears
but who is a more complete team in the NL? All the other teams have equal or greater flaws.
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by Futility Infielder on Aug 11, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
It isn't about having a complete team.....
It’s more of a feeling than anything. I think Arizona could give them a good series, with their pitching. Heck, we threw Looper, Welly, and Carp against them, in Chicago, and had 3 pretty well pitched games.
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 11, 2008 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Wrong frame
We are, at least, the third best NL club. Perhaps even the second, although the sweep at home to the Brewers makes them deserving of the label second-best NL team. The NL East and West clubs have holes just as gaping as we do, to be sure. Unfortunately, we are in the Central. The problem is that the once-weak NL Central is once again the NL juggernaut. Clubs as flawed as we are will make the postseason as both the NL East and West champion.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Carp
I, too, did a google search last night on “triceps strains” and came across this article about Ben Sheets. It’s written by David Gassko w/ some help from Chris Neault, a physical therapist w/ some background in baseball injuries. The troublesome quote was this one:
The latest injury for Sheets has been coined, "right triceps tightness," but it might as well include the rotator cuff. In my clinical experience, I have seen very few baseball pitchers present with a pure, isolated "triceps strain"—rather, there is almost always an involvement of the rotator cuff muscles in what is called the "Quadrangular Space."
Now, as LB pointed out, Sheets didn’t have any rotator cuff problems. Still, the idea seems to be that a triceps strain occurs as the result of some other problem for which the pitcher is compensating. I sincerely hope that the tricep is the only problem, but I also believe we need to be extremely cautious here. Rotator cuffs are the death knell for pitchers, aren’t they?
someones showing off...
n/t
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
are you trying to scare me?
because i think i just crapped my pants
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Im so depressed right now.
Carpenter throwing on the side with no ill effects will make me feel better though.
OT: Mike Parisi shut down
I saw this on the Cards main site, via Future Redbirds. I hope its nothing serious:
A club official confirmed a Memphis newspaper report that Parisi has a partial tear of the ulnar collateral ligament in his right elbow, and that Parisi is not expected to pitch again this season. Parisi came out of Memphis’ Tuesday game against Sacramento due to the injury.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
partial tear probably should mean TJ
this is why Todd was promoted.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 11, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
TJ
well, if youre correct (which looking around, I see the same thing cited by different sources), I hope he can recover and be more effective.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Aug 11, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
A concussion
might scramble the ol’ gray matter more than your average bender. The best part is that it has no ill effects on your liver.
Wainwright Bullpen Theory
From this article, it looks like the injury is curve ball related. I wonder if he could pitch sooner in the bull pen, albiet without using his curve, as opposed to being a starter and need the curve to get through the line up three times over.
It wouldn’t be the first time the Cards used an injured player in a limited way (Pujols playing OF, Ankiel of late).
Pretty much what I said yesterday.....
From his rehab start, it is obvious he can’t throw the curve yet. He has no business starting without that pitch, but COULD be successful out of the pen without it.
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 11, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Wainer without his curve
is a very ordinary pitcher. Whenever he can’t locate his curve he has been abused. If he is not ready, they should just wait until he is ready. Makes no sense to complicate his injury by forcing it.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
That's a very old article
His first serious bullpen session was all curves and sliders. He felt no pain afterwards and had a good grip. I think we should give him another start or two before rendering his curve ineffective the rest of the year. Furthermore, he’s not going to get lefties out without the curve ball—which makes his prospective use as closer really problematic.
My opinion is he should rehab until he’s as ready as he can be. He should rejoin the rotation at that time. If he can’t get hitters out, the season is basically over. Wasting him in the bullpen is just another way of waving the white flag—like sending in Mike Parisi in extra innings.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 11, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
if he can't throw his curve
b/c his injured finger won’t allow it, I really don’t know why we’re bothering running him out there. If his finger’s still too injured to allow him to throw all his pitches, he’s too injured to pitch.
Is Adam Kennedy still on the team?
Im getting “worried” his time might be short. We picked up Lopez. Ryan is in Memphis playing 2nd base and was informed he would be up with the calls ups or sooner by Tony…
Plus you have that horrid game yesterday were tony pulled him after botching a DP. (I know DFAing a player because of one game is silliness.) And Brian Barton is due back either today or tomorrow. Not sure because my watch is broken.
If my math is correct this all could add up to no Adam Kennedy. Then again with tony, I could add up to Barton in the bullpen. Lopez in left field. And AK playing first.
I just don't see it.....
As frugal as this team is, and the fact that Miles and Izturis are both FA’s, I don’t think we’re going to DFA a guy that is under contract next year.
Besides, while Kennedy is this year’s whipping boy, it is a bit undeserved. His defense has been solid, and he’s hit over .300 in 3 of the 5 months, with another month at .280. He was bad in May though.
He is putting up just about what is to be expected from him, IMO. We all know he doesn’t have much power, so I don’t know why we’re suprised to not see it.
except BA is almost worthless by itself
if he always he like he did in June i would let him play and Aprils not bad either but you can have the rest of the months: (BA, OB, SLG, OPS)
April/March .314 .364 .357 .721
May .161 .224 .194 .417
June .311 .358 .426 .784
July .280 .308 .380 .688
August .321 .321 .321 .643
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
I guess you haven't heard
It’s not the “Cardinal Way” to DFA a player. They’re allowed to grow old ungracefully and make a mockery of themselves in front of 42,000 fans until they ask for a trade or retire.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 11, 2008 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
LMAO
Kennedy’s production is hardly a mockery.
Didn’t someone post the other day that our 2B production has been top 1/3 of the league, or something like that?
re: "LMAO"
Adam Kennedy is currently #28 out of 30 in OPS+ out of MLB 2B’s with at least 270 PA’s. Miles is #18/30 and felipe lopez is one of the two guys worse than Kennedy (the other is freddy sanchez).
That isn’t at all funny, to me.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
by SleepyCA on Aug 11, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
but what about
Batting Average?
/sarcasm
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
What happened to Freddy Sanchez?
He was really good in 2006 and 2007
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
i wonder, can we trade for him?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
I don't read anything into Ryan playing 2b at Memphis
They probably just want the shortstop there to get as much playing time as possible.
from DG
Brendan Ryan started at second base Friday night, the first time he remembers playing a position other than short for the Redbirds this season. Ryan shifted to shortstop later in the game, and he expects to move around the infield until he is called up. Manager Tony La Russa told Ryan that he would be up in September, if not sooner.
What I heard
I was in STL this weekend and they were talking to the director of minor league operations on 590 The Fan and he said that Ryan will play SS, 3B, and 2B in the minors to get more of a feel at all three positions since that is what it looks like he will be doing when going back up to STL.
That's not nice
You got me very excited that you had a scoop on Kennedy’s DFA.
He’s really bad. Mo needs to embrace the concept of “sunk cost” and cut him loose. Addition by subtraction.
And for the record, I’ve been saying that for over a year…this isn’t just a reaction to his game-losing blunder last night. Not that it will ever happen, though. We’re stuck with him through 2009. Ugh.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
I think the next 12 games are huge.....
4 FL<br />3 Cincy
2 vs Pitt
3 vs Atl
We have to find a way to win at least 4 of those road games, though 5 would be nice.
I also think we need to win 4 of the 5 at home against some weaker teams.
That would lead us up to the two games with Milwaukee.
We are 10 over .500 now
(didn’t it seem like 14 just yesterday!).
3 Behind Milwaukee
7 Behind Chicago
1.5 Ahead of New York
2 Ahead of Miami
After last night’s loss, the Cardinals for the first time all season do not control their own destiny. They only have 2 games left vs the Brewers, whom they trail by 3 games. They trail Chicago by 7 games, whom they only have 6 games left against.
Now, they can go back to controlling their own destiny by making up ground elsewhere but it is worth noting that last night as the ball went through Kennedy’s legs, the Cardinals lost their right to decide their own fate.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 11, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
sometimes luck is more powerful than control
but good point
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 11, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The team has played .500 ball
since before the All-Star break. They’re showing no signs of breaking out or finally beating the premier teams in the league.
Yep and when we can't win series against the other contenders
it’s hard to consider ourselves one.
Since the break:
Series losses to Mets, Brewers, Phillies, Cubs (all contenders)
Series wins against : Padres, Braves, Dodgers (who are only a contender because of the weak NL West)
Yeah we are still in this thing but when we are loosing series against the other NL contenders like this it’s really hard to have to much hope.
The bottom line is we need the Brewers to start loosing some series..if we are to have any hope and their pretty easy schedule is working against us.
Exactly.
I dont feel that this team has a run in them. Like 9 out of 10 or along those lines. The injuries and the inconsistent bullpen i fear will be too much to overcome.
just think how good we would have been without the injuries...
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 11, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow... that kind of came out of nowhere
I haven’t looked to see what the prospects are…but I really hope for the Reds they are good ones. Loosing Dunn really kills the Reds already poor offense and this is good for us because we play the Reds quite a bit over the rest of the season. But I really feel bad for the Reds. If he doesn’t come back next season for them they are going to have a hard time scoring runs unless Walt can trade or sign for a bat in the off season.
unfortunately for us
we also still have 7 games left against arizona. I’d rather play 9 vs the reds with Dunn than 7 vs ARI with Dunn…
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
Maybe the DBacks did?
NL gets first crack.
Teams with worse records than Arizona
Cincy
Pittsburgh
Houston
Atlanta
Washington
Colorado
San Fransisco
San Diego
He also may have cleared waivers in May for all we know.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 11, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Surprised Houston didn't jump on that one
especially since Cecil Cooper said he’s quit if the team signed Bonds.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Which is hilarious
since the team’s best player, Lance Berkman, said he’d love to have Bonds as a teammate.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 11, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought that precedence went within the division first?
As in the Cubs would have precedence over any NL team, but the Pirates and Astros would be first
Maybe I just don’t understand the waiver deadline
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
just goes by league.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
i'm having a hard time believing no team put in a claim for him
this stinks. seriously, somethings up. the MLB leader in HR’s doesn’t just go on wavers & get traded in mid August without some team jumping at the chance for him.
something is up folks.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
what if i told you Adam Dunn
doesnt like basbeall that much would that change things?
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum
that's a load of crap
i live in ohio & trust me, Dunn loves what he does for a living. seriously, who would hate their job that paid them $13Million dollars per year?
let me rephrase my statement, i dont think any sinister is up like Bud told every team to not claim him. i think something more along the lines of a “gentleman’s agreement” happened where Walt called the other GM’s begging them to not claim Dunn because he had this deal already worked out. it’s been done before & i’m sure it will be done again.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
hardcore posted the list of teams
who passed on him, above. For which of those teams did it make sense to claim him?
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
actually
hardcore missed LA. LA should probably have put in a waiver claim.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
i was just about to say the same thing
i thought LA should have been on that list too.
i dont know. its just weird to me no other west team claimed him. i would think any team would want his services really. maybe i’m wrong. i guess the key words are “make sense”. unless your in the playoff hunt i guess it does not make sense to claim him unless you were trying to block a trade. but with that train of thought, why wouldn’t one of the NL West teams just claim him to block the deal?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Because if you claim him...
and the “selling” team wants to they can make you take him and then you HAVE to pay him.
correct me if i'm wrong, i thought you could pull your claim back
and not have to take him, but he still would be blocked from the claim by other teams.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Don't think that's right
But heck, it’s Adam Dunn for a pro-rated $13M if they accept the claim without making a trade.
no.
The selling team can pull him back one time if they don’t like the claim-winners offer, which is why they are called “revokable” waivers, but once a claim is made, it can’t be pulled back by the claimant.
If the selling team does pull him back, they can try to get him through waivers a second time, but if they do that then they can’t pull him back. The second kind of waiver is called “irrevokable”.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
thanks, so i was close
at least on the right track i guess
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
then again
imagine how bad a defensive OF of Manny Ramirez, Matt Kemp and Adam Dunn would be… kemp is actually pretty good, I guess, but not good enough to cover for both of those guys.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
on one is that good.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Well, arizona did jump on him
the only other teams “in contention” that had a chance to claim him before ARI are HOU and COL, and that’s using “in contention” in the most expansive way possible. COL already has an full OF (Hawpe to Dunn is probably not an upgrade when defense is considered and holliday > dunn), so really the only team that didn’t act as could be expected is houston, who just lost carlos lee.
For all we know, though, the astros might have even declined the waiver claim before Lee’s injury, since he got hurt in Saturday’s game.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
perhaps there are some money issues too
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 11, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
That's backwards
the team with the worst record to date gets first dibs, league first.
by Red in Chicago on Aug 11, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I know
What I was saying is that I thought the worst team in the Central had the first shot, followed by the second-worst in the central, all the way to the best in the central, and THEN the next-worst in the NL (not the central). As Sleepy pointed out above, though, I was incorrect
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
Doesn't that guy strike out a lot?
He must suck.
Good for the D-Backs…this should help their offense some.
Oh, you mean in LIFE
JD Drew for Adam Wainwright, Jason Marquis and Ray King.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 11, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
That wasn't a 'spects deal
Weren’t we going after a starter who throws innings, a LOOGY, and really any of their top prospects? We got two pitchers who threw a LOT the next year.
Well I am planning on going to a game this weekend at Cincy
I knew I wouldn’t have a tough time getting tickets but if Dunn is gone I might be able to sneak my way closer to the field. This move will drive fans away this year even more. I expect to see a half empty park this weekend.
Seems like a really good deal for the Diamonbacks
They give up a struggling A ball player and 2 PTBNL which are made up with the 2 draft picks they will get
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 11, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Reds get Dallas Buck.
Dallas Buck was selected in the third round of the 2006 First-Year Player Draft and underwent Tommy John surgery last year. He returned to action a couple of months ago and went 1-4 with a 3.94 ERA in nine games (eight starts) for Class A South Bend. The right-hander was promoted to Arizona’s high-A ball team in Visalia earlier this month and in his lone start allowed three unearned runs in five innings.
Not really the haul I would think the Reds could have got for Dunn. Not sure what Walt was thinking here. I would think the Reds could have at least tried to get a AA level outfielder that has some promise. The Reds are in more need of hitting prospects instead of pitchers.
Have to say it but I think Walt has really dropped the ball with the Reds.
They get rid of Griffey and Dunn the two biggest hitting stars on the team. And what have the Reds got back in return for these guys that will help them for the future? Not much from what I can tell. Now granted Griffey probably wouldn’t land a big prospect at this stage in his career but Dunn could have got them something that can at least give their fans a reason for hope that they are getting a piece for the future. I really think Walt has lost his touch and in my opinion hasn’t made the Reds a better team in the future after getting rid of their two big fan draws. Maybe Walt has something up his sleeve for this winter…but as of right now he has been a bust for the Reds in my opinion just like Dusty Baker.
You have to wonder how the...
three players that the Reds got back are going to compare to the two players they would have drafted with the two picks they would have received by just offering him arbitration at the end of the year…
Unless one of the PTBNL is Jarrod Parker, probably not very well
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
This is kind of new territory
for Walt Jocketty, isn’t it? Selling off stars to load up on prospects? It will be interesting to see how Walt plays this game.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 11, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Brewers on their way to a sweep of the Nats.
Leading 3-1 in the 4th. They get the Padres next.
Looks like it is going to be a must to take 3-4 from the Marlins now if not a sweep.
Ankiel in Glaus out of lineup per Bernie
Schumaker, CF
Lopez, 3B
Pujols, 1B
Ludwick, RF
Ankiel, LF
Molina, C
Miles, 2B
Pineiro, P
Izturis, SS
Responding to my own comment
But unfortunately he might be the best option to backup third. wipes tear away.
He has backed up 3rd before
Actually, it was one of the main reasons they got him. First time this year we had a legit guy backing up Glaus.
Some of you complain that he shouldn't play the OF.....
so he starts on the IF, and you still gripe. Geez.
Plus, as I mentioned earlier today.....
Lopez is 5 for 13 against Sanchez.
Not a huge sample size, but worth playing him.
Sorta with you
But then, I don’t think many people were calling for him to play 3B, either. The idea was that he’d supplant one of the abymsal hitters in the middle infield, not Troy Glaus.
He's a super-sub.....
He’s going to play a little bit of everywhere. Obviously, for some reason or another, TLR thinks that Glaus needs today off. Lopez is the best choice to start there.
I think Glaus needed a day off....
He looked pretty ginger in the Cubbie’s series. I get worried about his feet/knees
Ankiel in LF
This has to mean Ank is not yet 100% yet Tony is trotting him out there anyway.
yup
pretty damn odd if you ask me
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 11, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
the outfield down there is H U G E
so i’m not all surprised Skippy is in center over Rick. if he can run & hit now, he can play. but i dont have a big problem with him not starting in center.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
I don't have a problem with it
it just seems odd that they will run him out there when he’s still hurt. same goes for Wainwright and the bullpen situation
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 11, 2008 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Where was it said he's still hurt?
Other than jjray’s speculation a few comments above. I don’t think just because several VEB’ers said so, makes it true (although we are a quite sharp bunch!)
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
I'm just saying that it is odd
that they would start him in left rather than center. think about it for a second
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 11, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to me
Ankiel can bat fine, but they aren’t sure he can run full speed. So why not put him in LF where he won’t have as much ground to cover?
especially with
the big wall in fla, he won’t have to run nearly as much if one goes off it.
risk of reinjury
The point is not whether Ank can contribute in his limited capacity but whether he risks injury by playing when he is not fully healed. Unfortunately, the LaDuncan regime has a history of rushing players back only to have them reinjure themselves. These guys could very well be rolling the dice but no one can say for sure. LaDuncan is adept at misrepresenting injuries to the media so we have to take public comments on this topic with a grain of salt.
Ankiel has wanted to play for days
Ank has been begging to play. I think this is more of a case of TLR being overly cautious with Ankiel considering who he is. I doubt it is an injury risk.
yeah, with it being Rick
and his history, i highly doubt TLR would rush him back without a doubt in his mind he’s 100%
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
I hope that is just a situation
where they are being overly cautious. it’s just that there has been a history of iffy handling of injured players
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 11, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Keeping him out of centerfield
will limit the chances that he’ll dive for a short shot like JEd did and he’ll have less action in LF than in CF. Eases him back into the lineup.
i love Heilman
Pirates tied it up
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
some dude named steve pierce just gave the Bucko's a 7-5 lead
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
sweet
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 11, 2008 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
yep, ball games over
pond scum lose
jerry got the boot. it was weak. he was arguing balls & strikes in the bottom of the 9th from the dugout & the ump had a short fuse & ran him.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
can't argue ball and strikes.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Pearce
I believe they got him in the Manny/Bay deal.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
Nope
he was with the squad last year and really made a surge with his power, ending his season in AAA Indianapolis
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
I'm thinking of Moss.
my bad.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
The bottom line. . .
I live in east central Illinois and watch the Cubs play almost every day and the major difference in the Cubs and the Cards is that that Chicago finds a way to win and the Cards find a way to lose. All year long the Cubs have come back late to win, turned timely double, gotten home runs from their big guys when it counts, gotten hits and walks from their little guys when it counts, gotten strikeouts from their pen in big situations, and let me mention again, come back from deficits late to win. Whereas the Cards find a way to lose by taking an early lead and either let the opposition creep slowly back in or giving up 4 runs in the 7th-9th, our big guys popping up to SS or striking out with runners in scoring position, our little guys swinging 3-0 in the 9th when we need baserunners and our bullpen coughing up half our losses for the season. Just think where we would be if the pen did its job half the time. Eight or nine games in front of the Cubs. Man I wish we had Lidge.
you are right
and I can’t disagree with much there (although you don’t need Lidge). if our bullpen was a little better, then who knows? I think the bigger apparition that has been plaguing us is the injury bug
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 11, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
"Finds a way to win?" I can think of a LOT more differences......
1. A legit starting ace for most of the year
2. A very good #2 starter
3. A bullpen that hasn’t been in tatters most of the year
4. A shortstop who is hitting .314
5. a 2nd baseman with an OBP of .369
6. a leadoff hitter who hits .393 against lefties
7. A closer who throws at 96mph
8. A callup who steps in and throws 96mph/97mph at the end of games plus they are strikes
They can be beaten. But the reasons they are winning are obvious, as are the reasons we are losing. It has nothing to do with “finding a way to win.”
How many more reasons do you want?
One big difference between Cards & Cubs this year
is the home-field record of the two teams.
by ccthemovieman on Aug 11, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
OTOH the "better team" isn't likely to
lose more games on the road than they win.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
the cubs road vs home split
is nothing short of astounding
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 11, 2008 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd be surprised if they ended the season below .500 on the road
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
"Just because nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."
pretty lame response
BTW I don’t mean to imply that I agree with sdrone, but your response added absolutely nothing to the discussion. Maybe you could deign to enlighten us on which bits “don’t apply or aren’t even true”?
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
Injury notes:
“Ankiel has been used as a pinch-hitter in recent games because he says the injury is not painful when he swings—only when he runs.”
“Also on the injury front: Chris Carpenter, who came out of Sunday night’s game because of a strained triceps, received treatment today because there’s soreness in that area.”
yay?
no. thats bad news
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
the bright side of felipe lopez?
looking at lopez’s splits for this season, one thing stands out to me – he’s been a decent hitter on the road (.724 OPS per baseball-reference.com as of 8/13) but awful at home (.491 OPS). of course most of those home stats came when he was with the Nationals, so it stands to reason that his performance for the rest of the year will be closer to his road performance.
his home/road splits last year were not as dramatic, but he was still better away from DC (.687 OPS on the road vs. .633 OPS at home)
looking back at his 2005 splits, lopez was clearly helped by playing in a hitter’s park. so i don’t think we should expect a .900 OPS out of him again. but if he can get comfortable, an OPS around .720 seems realistic, which would be acceptable for a backup infielder/utility guy. and if he shows a little more, he’ll be worth inviting to spring training next year.
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