possible trade? (edited)
by fzeballer15
on Jul 7, 2008 7:09 PM EDT
With yadier being here for at least 4 more yrs thts blocks bryan anderson whose hitting .333 in AAA so why not give him up along with stavinoha whose hitting .347 for Matt Holiday.
Holliday is on the block and we have another cather behind anderson that is having a solid yr splitting time hitting .275 which isnt bad. Also at the current rate rasmus doesnt look to be on the verge to come up this yr hitting only .249
why not give up Anderson who is a prospect, Jaime Garcia who yes will be a good prospect but not so hot this yr may need another half season in the minors and that being enough time for mulder and carp to get back 100% which gives us carp, mulder, wainright, lohse, and wellemeyer. Then add in Duncan who should be playing first and will with Helton getting older and a hitter friendly park will sure help him and that division w/ somebody like stavinoha or similar
So wats wrong w/ Anderson, Garcia, Duncan, and Stavinoha for Holliday
2 solid prospects, 1 possible in stavinoha, and a player that hasn’t had quite enough time to prove himself at first and in the lineup
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dunno
I’d kinda like to see Anderson get a lot of playing time next year as the hot hitting backup catcher
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 7:15 PM EDT 0 recs
Because it's going to take more than that to get Holliday
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 7, 2008 7:26 PM EDT 0 recs
+1
The Rockies don’t need a catcher, they have Iannetta and Torrealba. With the state of the NL West, the Rockies aren’t out of it, so I can’t believe they would trade Holliday unless a team blows them away with an offer. These marginal offers people come up with are just not reasonable.
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by cardsfanindenver on
Jul 8, 2008 10:27 AM EDT
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Anderson, Stavinoha, + player to be named for Holliday?
Seriously, lol!? Stavinoha isn’t even a prospect. That’s like wondering if we could trade Albert Pujols to the A’s for Kurt Suzuki and Brant Colamarino.
by KeepOnRolen on
Jul 8, 2008 11:22 AM EDT
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Seriously?
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2008 7:52 PM EDT 0 recs
Seriously??
this is to the author of the fanpost too
Rasmus hitting only .249 is not an indication of his talent level. You do know that, right?
Sometimes BA can be a terrible stat to look at.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 7, 2008 8:05 PM EDT
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he was just referring to this year
and I’ll have to agree that he probably won’t come up this year if he doesn’t improve. I think we all still agree that he’s our number 1 prospect, but there’s no reason to rush him if he’s not tearing up AAA pitching.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on
Jul 7, 2008 9:09 PM EDT
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especially when we have a glut in the outfield
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 7, 2008 10:22 PM EDT
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Rasmus in June
.337 .442 .535
He’s fine. There was never anything really wrong with him. He’s probably one of our 5 best outfielders right now. Mozeliak really needs to turn some of these complimentary parts into other needed complimentary parts.
If the team really wants to win, they could do worse than Rasmus in center, Ankiel in right and ludwick in left on a daily basis. I’d say they’re tossing out some worse outfields right now in fact.
by azruavatar on
Jul 7, 2008 10:45 PM EDT
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I disagree
I’m a big arguer of team chemistry (and I know you love stats) and Ankiel, Skip, Ludwick is an outfield that’s been winning and my opinion should be playing together more than it has been. The media’s been talking it up plenty, and it’s true: this team is winning because of chemistry. Why fix what’s not broken? Those are the three we should revolve around for THIS season. Barton and Dunc, however . . .
I really don’t know what to do with Barton. We’re in a tough situation with him, and I agree that Rasmus would probably do better up here. I’d still like to see us trade Duncan (especially if he can keep up this hitting / improving his numbers by the deadline) as a first baseman for some relief help a la the Rays Wigginton for Wheeler deal last year that will still payoff next year. That opens up a roster spot for Rasmus while also improving another much needed part of the team.
But overall, I guess I just have no problem waiting until next year for him. I’d like to see him up here, but only if the roster spot opens up by some other means (i.e. gaining in another position).
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on
Jul 8, 2008 12:59 AM EDT
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Barton was sent to the DL
After which he can go on rehab for 30 days.
by Evilfrog on
Jul 8, 2008 11:20 AM EDT
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sketchy as hell...
... if he takes the full 30 to rehab, that will the team just a few weeks from the September call-ups. i can’t believe the Indians wouldn’t file a complaint about it, since it’s obviously a bogus injury.
Mo’s “creative” roster management w/r/t injuries (Barton, Izzy, Flores) has given the team some flexibility, and most of those moves haven’t had significant enough consequences for anybody to file a grievance. but Barton’s phantom injury should definitely make the Indians think about it since they are the ones losing his rights.
by kindred on
Jul 8, 2008 3:24 PM EDT
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he hurt his hand
he said so himself. no phantom injury there.
and i’m sure barton wouldn’t be opposed to getting a few at bats everyday for a while as opposed to a few at bats a week. he knows he’ll be back in august.
by adiueordie on
Jul 8, 2008 4:13 PM EDT
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Of course he said so himself
Why would he come out and blow Mo’s cover? This is of course assuming the “bogus injury” theory
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jul 9, 2008 12:39 PM EDT
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you don't believe the "bogus injury" theory?
I don’t either.
I am not calling anyone in particular out, but it does seem that some people think the Cards are incapable of doing anything that isn’t “underhanded”
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 9, 2008 1:19 PM EDT
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It'll take more than that.....
But if we could get him for a package including Anderson, one other “good spect”, and an assortment of Skip, Duncan, and Reyes, I’d probably pull the trigger.
That, or Anderson needs to learn another position. You can’t “split time” between catchers. It just doesn’t make much sense.
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 7, 2008 8:01 PM EDT 0 recs
Anderson is a very good prospect
Duncan is a first baseman playing the outfield. In Colorado’s huge park, he would definitely have to play 1st. Todd Helton is not getting any younger at 34 years old, and he’s under .400 OBP and SLG this year. Duncan is having a horrible year and is almost hitting as well as Helton. (ok, slight overstatement).
What would another “good spect” be for this one and could it work?
by stlfan on
Jul 8, 2008 8:20 AM EDT
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of course we should
Colby is of course untouchable, but no one else is. I would have to see what Colorado is asking for Matt. I know it will be more than Anderson and one more prospect but I think if this is doable it should be on the Cardinals list. The Cardinals would also have to believe we could re-sign Matt to make the deal worth it. How potent would a team that has an Ankiel and Colby Rasmus. Imagine how potent and offense would be with Rasmus-Pujols-Holliday-Glaus-Ankiel it helps a lot to hide the bats at SS and 2nd. I think if this is a deal that can be done while not giving up the entire farm system, and singing Matt long term. However I think the bounty will be too much when you consider they still have another year to sign him.
by BradyMc13 on Jul 7, 2008 8:16 PM EDT 0 recs
I have changed my tune on Holliday
when I read today that the Rockies were asking for David Price. Which won’t happen, but that sort of shines a light on the type of haul they’re wanting to get back.
by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 8:32 PM EDT 0 recs
they really are nuts, aren't they
this isn’t the Mets they will be dealing with!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 7, 2008 8:41 PM EDT
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How are they nuts?
He’s a stud OF. Suggesting a catcher (that the Rockies don’t need), plus a couple other “might-be” prospects for Holliday is just ignorant. Look at the package the Rangers got for Teixeira. Come on, people.
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by cardsfanindenver on
Jul 8, 2008 10:31 AM EDT
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they are nuts
for thinking the Rays would give up Price for a year and a half of Holliday. Which is almost as crazy an idea as what the Mets gave up Kazmir for.
Wasn’t Saltalamacchia the key player that the Rangers got back? I just don’t think any of those players have the upside of David Price. I restate my belief that the Rays would be crazy to make that trade. You have to give the Rockies GM kudos for putting it out there though.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 8, 2008 2:00 PM EDT
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and I say nuts
because I don’t think the Rays would resign Holliday, If they would , it is a different story.
I also believe that people don’t look at the economic side of the coin enough. Holliday is a great player, don’t get me wrong.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 8, 2008 2:06 PM EDT
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I don't think even the Rockies think they could get Price
but there’s really no harm in starting there. What if they caught TB at a time they were really thinking they had to go all in for this thing right now, and pulled the trigger? Not saying that would happen, but nevertheless, if you start out with asking for Price maybe you end up getting a lot more than you started out asking for.
It’s a freakin’ negotiation. But, I do think it shows what the Rox think they can get for Holliday. Maybe not Price, but definately an orginazaitons top talent.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 8, 2008 5:01 PM EDT
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my first comment was supposed to be sarcastic
I really need to quit doing that. I didn’t actually think the Rockies thought Tampa Bay would give up Price. You may be right though, that is the AL East, the Rays might think this might be their year and go for it.
SO maybe it wasn’t nuts
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 8, 2008 5:31 PM EDT
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ah
see, i too am a victim of being sarcastic way too often and it is a really tough sell. Besides, you didn’t include an asterisk in your post so I wasn’t able to refer to your signature, so NEXT TIME, BE MORE CAREFUL!!!!!
(in my best Judge Smails voice)
by Tackle Box on
Jul 8, 2008 6:16 PM EDT
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Totally different
If it hasn’t been said…isn’t Holliday a rental player? Teixeira had a year left on his deal.
by stlfan on
Jul 8, 2008 5:23 PM EDT
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Holliday is signed through 2009
He signed a 2 yr/23M deal before the season
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 8, 2008 5:33 PM EDT
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dude
between this and your Bryan Anderson arguement, you’re not doing too well today.
jk.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 8, 2008 6:17 PM EDT
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well, think about it
he’s still under their control for next year. They won’t be desperate to deal him until next year. Of course they’re going to ask for the top players.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on
Jul 7, 2008 9:10 PM EDT
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exactly
he’s not a rent-a-player. so they can ask for a much bigger return.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 8, 2008 12:55 AM EDT
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for those players, yes.
but that won’t happen.
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 7, 2008 11:00 PM EDT 0 recs
on holiday
seems if we a going for holiday or any other front line player, we should be working to make sure some of our outfielders and maybe MI’erss are included in any deal. we have some log jams in the outfield particularly as far the 25 man roster is concerned. bringing in holiday would be great, but it decreases the value of our other outfielders. gotta look at the overall cost,
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
by sportsman on Jul 7, 2008 11:53 PM EDT 0 recs
those franklins must be going down pretty smooth
You said, “we have another cather behind anderson that is having a solid yr splitting time hitting .275 which isnt bad.”
Are you referring to Mark Johnson, who is hitting .275/.374/.342 in 120 at bats at Memphis this year?
The same Mark Johnson who has a career line of .217/.315/.319 in 917 at bats from 1998-2004 in the majors (and hasn’t made it back to the majors since)?
The same Mark Johnson who will turn 33 years old in September?
Yeah, that guy was signed to fill the Kelly Stinnett spot. He’s a defensive specialist who will probably catch some games in September to give Yadi and LaRue a rest, but that’s it. He certainly isn’t a prospect.
by adiueordie on Jul 8, 2008 12:28 AM EDT 0 recs
IF we could get Holliday for Rasmus I would do it!!
Sure Rasmus is our can’t miss prospect but I think Holliday is a much better hitter. I would trade Rasmus in a heartbeat to get Holliday to hit behind Pujols. You add Holliday to our line-up and we are a offensive force in the NL.
I know he plays in Colorado but you think Rasmus will be able to put up the numbers Holliday does?
Mr. Holliday hits for a high average…at.345 right now. He hits for power 30+ hrs and can even steal 10-12 bases a season.
Rasmus will be good but I doubt he will put up the numbers that Holliday does. Of course I doubt Dewitt will want to pay for both Holliday & Pujols but if that wasn’t a road block I would pull a trigger to get Holliday and they can have Rasmus.
by KYCards on Jul 8, 2008 3:59 AM EDT 0 recs
I don't believe
we will do that, not because of DeWitt, but because it is not the right thing to do long-term. I don’t think that Holliday pushes us over the top for a playoff run. It sits down either Skip, Ludwick, or Ankiel, who are not the problems offensively. If it meant that Kennedy were sitting every day because Holliday filled that hole, then I don’t believe any discussion would be needed, however, that is not the case.
by stlfan on
Jul 8, 2008 8:16 AM EDT
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so what
so what if we sit skip, ludwick or ankiel. Wouldn’t you rather have Holliday playing vs any of those players…..I would. we have too many mediocre players on this team that are playing way over their head right now.
Life is short! Break the rules! And never regret anything that made you smile.
by Section8 on
Jul 8, 2008 10:08 AM EDT
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who cares if they are playing over their head?
doesn’t mean they can’t do it all season…
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 8, 2008 3:40 PM EDT
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But Rasmus can put up similar numbers
(not the same, but similar) with stellar defense at a much lower rate for many years. With Holiday you’d be getting a year and a half, then you’d either lose him or have to pony up big time to resign him. Plus there’s the question about Holiday’s home / road splits.
In short, I think the deal is too expensive, involves too much risk, and would produce only a limited benefit over a shorter period of time than keeping Rasmus around.
by Ray Lankford on
Jul 8, 2008 9:22 AM EDT
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I doubt Holliday will be traded
I’ve read the following things in more than one place:
- The Rockies asked for David Price, one of the top few pitching prospects in all of baseball.
- Other GMs are scared by Holliday’s dramatic home/away splits, so they probably won’t be trading any blue chippers
CAREER:
Home: 1.086 OPS
Away: .794 OPS
2008:
Home: 1.079 OPS
Away: .904 OPS
Given those two things and the fact that Holliday’s contract isn’t up at the end of this season, I can’t see anyone matching the Rockies’ Price (get it? It’s a pun).
by mojowo11 on Jul 8, 2008 9:15 AM EDT 0 recs
The splits crack me up....
Obviously the career split is one thing, but his last 3 years’ split and his 2008 split aren’t that bad. If we acquired Holliday and he batted at a .904 OPS level the rest of the year, no one should be disappointed.
by mtalken on
Jul 8, 2008 10:32 AM EDT
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Isn't that what they call "elite"? Or at least darn close to it......
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jul 8, 2008 10:36 AM EDT
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Well
I don’t know that it’s really fair to describe the splits as laughable. I’m not saying that he’s bad away from home - in fact, I mostly agree with you - but nonetheless, the difference is there.
His away OPS over the last three full years (which you mentioned, but didn’t actually put in there): .729, .819, .860. Given that it’s over .900 so far this year (in a small sample of 147 PA), one point of view could say it’s climbing and another might say that you’re being more realistic if you expect an .850 OPS or maybe lower.
Personally, I’m pretty sure that Holliday would be a force away from Coors. All I’m saying is that it’s something worth considering and, if what I’ve read is accurate, it’s scaring other GMs away a bit.
by mojowo11 on
Jul 8, 2008 3:37 PM EDT
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+1
I completely agree that the splits numbers are overrated for Holliday. I don’t think enough emphasis is given to the fact that the Rockies play in the NL West, where there’s a number of pitcher-friendly ballparks (e.g. Petco) and some downright nasty pitchers (e.g. Peavy, Webb, Lincecum, etal.)
I get to see Holliday on a pretty regular basis and the guy is a beast. Take a look at this home run he hit last night. It’s unbelievable.
http://colorado.rockies.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200807073088080
While I would love for him to be a Cardinal, the Rockies have no reason to trade him right now for anything less than someone else’s farm. And hey, I’m enjoying watching hime as a Rockie.
by RockyMtnRedbird on Jul 8, 2008 10:56 AM EDT 0 recs
no way
there is no way that the rockies would be stupid enough to trade one of the best pure hitters in baseball for an above average prospect and a couple of throw in players. unless of course that player to be named later is rasmus. cards fans got to start thinking realistically.
by thenextgen on Jul 8, 2008 11:24 AM EDT 0 recs
why
not give up Anderson who is a prospect, Jaime Garcia who yes will be a good prospect but not so hot this yr may need another half season in the minors and that being enough time for mulder and carp to get back 100% which gives us carp, mulder, wainright, lohse, and wellemeyer. Then add in Duncan who should be playing first and will with Helton getting older and a hitter friendly park will sure help him and that division w/ somebody like stavinoha or similar
So wats wrong w/ Anderson, Garcia, Duncan, and Stavinoha for Holliday
2 solid prospects, 1 possible in stavinoha, and a player that hasn’t had quite enough time to prove himself at first and in the lineup
by fzeballer15 on Jul 8, 2008 2:28 PM EDT 0 recs
b/c...
... as already mentioned, the Rox already have two catchers: Iannetta who is young and has about the same potential as Anderson, and Torrealba who is signed through next season. Anderson wouldn’t be any help for them. Garcia has improved his status some this year, but he’s still not the sort of prospect that you can build a package deal around. he’s still a ‘B’ prospect, and you need more than that to get one of the elite position players in the game. Duncan’s trade value is very low right now, and Stavinoha’s value has never been high.
the Rox wouldn’t even consider trading us Holliday if we don’t include Rasmus, unless we include pretty much everyone else in our system. and OF isn’t even a need of ours right now. we can’t find enough spots for the players we’ve already got, and that’s not including Rasmus who will get full-time duty next year at the latest. if we’re going to sell off all our prospects, i’d expect to get either some top-flight SP (say, Bedard) or some high-ceiling MLB-ready MI players.
i’d rather focus on lesser moves, dumping Schumacher, Duncan, and/or Mather for MI prospect depth, even if the guys we get only project as league-average. that would be a big improvement over the status quo, and would free up playing time for Rasmus and Ludwick (both of whom will out-perform Schumacher and probably Duncan in the next few years). we’d improve out OF by substituting Rasmus for Schumacher, and improve our IF by substituting whoever we get for Iz2/AK/Miles. such a move wouldn’t be a splashy as getting a guy like Holliday, but it may actually be more helpful to the team. plus, we’d have much more payroll flexibility to address other needs.
by kindred on
Jul 8, 2008 3:38 PM EDT
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Alternative trade
Brendan Ryan/Anthony Reyes to Baltimore for George Sherrill. Baltimore needs a SS (they scouted Eckstein) and injuries have decimated their starting pitching. Chris Ray is their closer of the past/future due back next season. They are about to start the annual slide into last place fi they don’t get some pitching help. All players are cost controlled for a few years.
by ubeddie on Jul 8, 2008 3:54 PM EDT 0 recs
at first I thought that was far fetched
but actually seems plausible. we might have to throw in another person though. my main problem is that we kind of need Brendan Ryan
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 8, 2008 3:57 PM EDT
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But...
Who do we need more? A SS that, in all honesty, isn’t too much different that our other three MI guys or a good Reliever for our less than stellar bullpen? I dunno how his splits against lefties, since we primarily need a LOOGY, but in the least it would give us a Closer or Set Up Man and would allow us to use KMac more so against lefties….
by Pujols Is A God on
Jul 8, 2008 4:58 PM EDT
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I guess that all depends on
what your purpose is for this season. Obviously, you want to stay in the race this year and possibly contend. CFinChi may be looking at who plays short next year since Iz2 will probably be gone and there’s no one in the minors who could realistically play SS next year.
And I’m not exactly sold on the SS options that will be hitting the free agent market this off season either. You’re basically looking at Orlando Cabrera (34), David Eckstein (34), Adam Everett (32), Rafael Furcal (31), Christian Guzman (31) who I think is either close or has already re-signed with WAS, Cesar Izturis (29), Felipe Lopez (29), Juan Uribe (30), and maybe Edgar Renteria (33) or Omar Vizquel (42).
Not a real enticing list, especially when the competition for services is going to drive up the prices of Cabrera, Furcal, and Renteria.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 8, 2008 5:16 PM EDT
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Could we
substitute Iz2 in that deal? Would they do it? I think he’s signed next year, right? If not, they could agree to a trade only if they get a deal in place.
by stlfan on
Jul 8, 2008 5:25 PM EDT
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we need to target Hu...
... especially if the Dodgers end up trading for Jack Wilson or re-signing Furcal. they obviously don’t value him very highly at this point. now, Ned Colletti is notorious for not properly valuing his own prospects but also refusing to trade them (see Ethier, Andre) but if they really do get Wilson or extend Furcal then Hu is blocked everywhere. DeWitt is moving the 2B next year and LaRoche will be at 3rd. we might be able to pry him away for a couple of B pitching prospects or something.
by kindred on Jul 8, 2008 5:20 PM EDT 0 recs
isn't Hu
basically a younger version of Cesar Izturis?
by Tackle Box on
Jul 8, 2008 6:22 PM EDT
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no
hu, last year between AA/AAA (127 games):
.325/.364/.507, .871 OPS with 14 HR, 40 doubles and 15 SB. yes, he is considered a plus defensively.
iz2’s best-ever OPS in the minors was .757 for 131 games in 1999 at High A. highest in the majors was .711 in 2004 with the dodgers. in his major- and minor-league career (11 seasons), he has all of 19 HR.
but… well, they’re both good at defense. might as well compare em.
by baw on
Jul 8, 2008 7:41 PM EDT
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