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Does CC spell the end . . .

Pa190387_tiny by sprfldcard on Comment 257 comments

Apparently, the Brewers have acquired CC Sabathia . . . which raises a few questions.  Does this make the Brewers better than the Cubs?  If I have to root for someone other than the Cards to win the Central, I would definitely pick the Brewers.  Additionally, and more importantly, does this acquistion spell the end of the line for this Cards team?  When you team CC with Sheets, you get (potentially) the best tandem in the league.  Should the Cards send up the white flag and trade some overachievers?  Luddy?  Welley? Lohse? 

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No

Of course not. The Indians had Cliff Lee and Sabathia (which has been pretty comparable this season) and the other teams didn’t fold. Obviously, the competition will be tougher, but there is no guarantee that this will automatically make them better. If we thought like that then Johan would have made the Mets automatic winners and same with the D-Backs and Haren.

No reason to send up a white flag. We do need to make a move, though, but nothing drastic. We should trade from a surplus position in hope of fixing the little things that have lost us ball games thus far (such as relief pitching and MI). This team doesn’t need another superstar - that might even hurt the team’s mindset - but we could use a fix on the little areas that are broken.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 6, 2008 8:48 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Brewers also didn't have

Manny Parra, JJ Hardy, Prince Fielder, Ryan Braun, Bill Hall and Corey Hart.

Just sayin’.

The Cardinals have been playing below .500 baseball for awhile now. The offense can’t seem to get it all going at the same time and when it does, the bullpen coughs it up anyways. They’ll have to just play better baseball to hang around in this thing.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 6, 2008 9:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well, right

that’s why all we really need to do is fix the bullpen. We really don’t need to make a splash like CC for this team. If anything, it might throw off the dynamic.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 7, 2008 12:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Below .500 ball?

If you pick and choose…I see where you get this, but from the first of June we are 17-15…from June 15th we are 9-10 ( I suppose this is below .500, but certainly no reason for concern). Thus far in July we are 2-3…we’re in a bit of a rough stretch no doubt, but we’re not REALLY playing below .500.

by cardzfanbub on Jul 7, 2008 8:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Being a bit dramatic aren't we...

we’ve played 3 under ball since the 11th (high water mark of 13 over). Other than the home series against the Royal we have nothing to be ashamed of. Our opponents in that stretch were: The Phils, Red Sox, Mets, Tigers, Cubs and the Royals…not exactly bottom feeders.

by cardzfanbub on Jul 7, 2008 1:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

even "bottom feeders" get hot...

we caught the Royals at a time where they were playing great ball. When they came into Busch and swept the Cardinals, the Royals had won 3 out of 4. When they left Busch (having won 6 out of 7) they lost one and then won 6 in a row. We caught them in the midst of a stretch in which they won 12 of 14 games. That’s a hot streak. If we caught them back in late May when they were on a 12 game losing streak and then got swept, that would be embarrassing. Also, the Royals aren’t even in the “bottom feeder” of their own division. They are 1.5 games up on their own division “bottom feeder,” the Cleveland Indians. Since May 31, they are 17-16…about .500 ball.

by stlfan on Jul 7, 2008 6:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There's only two teams worse than the Royals

in the American League. Seattle and Cleveland.

They’re bottom feeders.

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 6:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes but

we won the series vs Philadelphia (only by the grace of God), won the series vs the Red Sox and Royals, tied the series vs the Mets, lost the series to the Tigers and Cubs.

This team is trending the wrong way. It’s not like the schedule is going to get easier from here on out.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 7, 2008 3:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Something funny I read a BCB

and if any of them are here, I appoligize for not giving direct kudos to whoever said it, but about the Mets and Johan it was said,

“The Mets were built to win 3 years ago but nobody bothered to tell them until a month into the season.”

by Tackle Box on Jul 6, 2008 10:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sabathis - Mulder same thing right.

Ok so the plan was to wait until everyone was healthy and hope that would be enough. I say that’s a good plan.

if Wainwright and Carp can come back we can compete if not I don’t see the point. We should know by the end of August and at that time I’m sure some of the tradable guys can be moved.

by Harknights on Jul 6, 2008 9:19 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What?

A guy who hasn’t pitched in almost two years is going to come play in every fourth or fifth game for about the last six to eight weeks of the season. Are you saying that’s not going to catapult them to a championship?

Annnnnnnnnd end sarcasm.

by Andyfantastic on Jul 6, 2008 10:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the trade deadline is july 31st though.

by adiueordie on Jul 6, 2008 10:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It doesn't spell the end

but it makes things that much more difficult. I REALLY hope Mo doesn’t make any desperation moves to try and keep up and trade away the farm. I actually hope he does the opposite, and holds some team hostage for Lohse.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 6, 2008 9:24 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I doubt they fall that far out of it in a month

for them to feel comfortable selling off pieces like Lohse. Could happen, but I doubt this team goes down the drain that early or quickly.

by Tackle Box on Jul 6, 2008 10:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that is what i

am hoping for too. i really think the brewers and cubs are better and that the cards are out of it . . . they just don’t know it yet. making a trade that sends lohse and nets a talented middle infielder would be great . . .

"I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’" ~Shannon

by sprfldcard on Jul 6, 2008 10:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ya never know

either team could fall victim to injuries or just randomly fall off pace. not likely, but if we hang in there, anything’s possible (i.e. 2006)

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 4:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how many times are we going to face CC?

Maybe twice? This doesn’t spell the end at all. Plus, as far as their overall record, CC hasn’t even been spectacular this season. Let’s see how he transitions to a different league, too.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 7, 2008 12:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He hasn't been spectacular,

but he’s been awful good and hasn’t gotten any run support in Cleveland. He’s a great pickup for the Brew crew for two reasons mainly:

1. Over the course of his career he’s been tough to beat in August and September. That’s winnin’ time, as my uncle says.

2. He goes deeper into games and eats up more innings than any other starter out there. If they’re able to space his starts apart from Sheets, they’ll get bullpen relief every other start, something they sorely need since their bullpen isn’t very good to begin with.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they went after Fuentes or Sherrill yet either.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 12:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Milwaukee

I still don’t think they are better than the Cubs, even after this trade. So they just sent away their best spect, for a few months of an ace starting pitcher, possibly a wild card birth, and probably very little shot at a WS appearance.

Call it what it is, which is a mistake by the Milwaukee management.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 6, 2008 9:35 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Very little shot?

all they have to do is win the wild card, which is completely within reach, plus they’re only 3.5 games behind the cubs and that is miniscule considering there’s still 3 months of baseball left.

Anyway, let’s say they do make the wildcard. They would then have a 5 game series in which they could throw C.C. or Sheets in all but one of those games. Then they would have a 7 game series where they would throw them 4 or maybe 5 times (envision a game 7 started by Sheets and closed by C.C.).

Their biggest obstacle is the regular season. After that, everything gets shifted into the favor of a staff with two big ass studs in it.

by Tackle Box on Jul 6, 2008 10:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree on this being a postseason move

Adding CC should help them get to the playoffs, but the real gain would be in the playoffs. Without Sheets or CC signed for next year, this is a true “win now” move by Melvin.

by ubeddie on Jul 6, 2008 10:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just don't see them being that good.

I think their offense is streaky, and I think Sheets will wear down. Have any of the Brewers even played a single playoff game to date? And now they’re making moves like they’re a WS team this year?

Like HC said in another thread, they are setting themselves up to be without Sheets, Sabathia, LaPorta, AND Fielder over the next season or two. That doesn’t seem very smart to me, for a small market team that is fighting with a few fairly consistent teams in the central.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 6, 2008 10:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They've never actually won anything

and they aren’t ever going to have a greater collection of talent than they do now.

It’s all in time for them before their young talented players start leaving town.

With Sabathia, I believe it does make them better than the Cubs. They are better than them in LF, CF, RF, SS and 1B. They are better with their #1 starter, their #2 starter and their #3 starter. The only thing the Cubs have them bested at is the back end of the bullpen.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 6, 2008 10:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And for what it's worth

I think its funny to read the cub fans talking about how the Brewers are motgaging their future by trading these guys. Like the cubs aren’t doing the exact same thing with the long-ass contracts they’ll be sitting on in about a year and a half.

by Tackle Box on Jul 6, 2008 11:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i know

they are so much better which is the reason their RS/RA is just over even and the Cubs have one of best in the leage right?

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 12:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's your point

you could win all your games 9-8 or 2-1 and you still have a run differential of 1. What’s it matter by how many runs you win by, this isn’t college football. A win is a win.

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 2:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Really?

Braun is better than Soriano?

Hart is better than Fukudome?

Fiedler is better than Lee?

“The Stiff Known as #3” is better than Dempster?

Especially when defense is thrown into the mix, I don’t see how any of these Brewer players are hands down better than their Cubs counterparts.

Although you did credit the Cubs bullpen, you conveniently missed Ramirez/3B, DeRosa/2B and Soto/C as decidedly better options.

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jul 7, 2008 10:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, yes, and no (IMO)

Dempster isn’t your #3 starter this season, but your #2.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2008 11:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Therefore............

.............”The Stiff Known as #3” is better than Ted Lilly?

Regardless, Lilly is the #2 with Dempster as #3.

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jul 7, 2008 11:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just saying man

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2008 11:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

then your number 3 is better than your number 2

what, do they sew those numbers in their underwear so they don’t forget where their locker is?

by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2008 1:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Using that intelligent phrase............

...............just saying man.

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jul 8, 2008 8:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What...................

.................are you talking about?

by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2008 11:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Please see.............

...............the response just above. “Just saying man” was used as the reply to one of my questions.

Since I can do far better, the number in the rotation does not necessarily reflect the results. The Cubs lined up Lilly after Zambrano to get the “lefty-righty” effect. Dempster then followed, with Hill and Marquis filling out the 4/5 roles.

Now, since Lilly has not fared as well as Dempster, it’s entirely possible they’ll be changing underwear in the near future.

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jul 8, 2008 12:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just saying man

You don’t have to insult my intelligence

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 8, 2008 12:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you're...........

.............gonna rebutt something, then offer insightful dialogue.

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jul 8, 2008 5:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What was I rebutting?

I wasn’t trying to disprove your point or anything. You have to agree that Dempster is your #2 pitcher so far this year and Lilly is your #3. Look at the ERA+s. It’s not a debatable point.

Oh…................ and don’t come over to our website…......................and tell our users how to post

Just…......................................................................
.........................saying….................................................................
.........m…....................................a…...............................................n

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 8, 2008 6:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This proves a point............

...........to be sure.

Cards fans are not as bright as they’d like to paint themselves.

A team’s 2nd best statistical pitcher is NOT NECESSARILY their #2 starter.

The fact that I have to explain this in ANY baseball post should be an embarrassing point.

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jul 8, 2008 8:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How would you line up your postseason starting rotation if it started right now?

And forget the Harden trade, because we got into this before that happened. You’re a fool if you’d rather have Lilly pitching before Dempster, especially if it’s at Wrigley.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 8, 2008 9:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you miss the point, but............

............I’ll try to explain one last time.

When a team sets up a rotation, the pitchers in that rotation appear in a certain order. Based on that order in the rotation, that is how a team refers to their ”#3 guy” or ”#2 guy”, etc.

The question you raise is entirely different than the issue brought forward several posts previous. It’s an interesting question, but it’s not the same. That’s been my point all along.

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jul 8, 2008 11:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how is it

that pitching prospects can project to be a ”#2 guy,” then? seems there is a profile there.

by baw on Jul 11, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hart is easily better than Fukudome

Hart: OPS+ of 121

Fukudome: OPS+ of 112

Want more stats? Hart has a higher BA, more RBIs, HRs, SBs, 2B, 3B and has struck out fewer times. I’d say that he’s head and fucking shoulders above Fukudome, whose OPS+ is the exact same as Skip Schumaker.

by Ray Lankford on Jul 8, 2008 7:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for reading my post.

Obviously Hart is “hands down” better than Fukudome.

Ignore the defensive concerns; or the fact Dome has scored 25% more runs.

The fact that you mention Skippy in the same post with Hart and Fukudome is insulting to both of these players.

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jul 8, 2008 8:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The fact that you can't accept the fact that the two players are offensively identical

shows that your baseball knowledge is colored royal blue and covered with Ivey.

I didn’t ignore the fact that “Dome” has scored 12 more runs, which incidentally, is not 25% more than 46. I just chose to focus on the other 8 offensive categories where Hart is clearly better, since you said it wasn’t obvious that Hart was better. And the “defensive concerns” you mention are nothing more than a passing reference—since you offer nothing more than hyperbole, I’ll just ignore that, except to note that the two have the same number of assists.

Either do some fucking research or bring some fucking insight; right now you are bringing neither—so vamoos, troll.

by Ray Lankford on Jul 8, 2008 9:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're right.

12 of 46 is greater than 25%, but I didn’t figure it necessary to cipher down to the decimal to prove my point.

And you’re right about them not being identical, but then, of course, I never said they were.

With regard to defense, again, pick the stats that fit your argument. Meanwhile, I’ll mention Hart playing games indoors and his greater number of errors. Those carry beyond hyperbole, I believe.

And if I had no insight and failed to even do the least of research, how was I able to raise those stats/issues that you’ve ignored?

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jul 8, 2008 11:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If the Brewers make the playoffs

Then you have to like CC + Sheets as your 1 – 2 punch to get you an advantage in the series. Throw in Suppan, who is a proven post season gamer, and that’s a formidable rotation. They still need to acquire bullpen help though, they might well as well just sell off the rest of their farm for George Sherrill.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 6, 2008 11:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not as good as the Cubs

but still one of the best teams in the NL

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 4:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not the end

cause you never know what will happen in baseball. CC will have 14 or 15 starts for MIL and three of those might be against the Cubbies and maybe only one against the Cards.

Bullpen help is where we need to focus to win more games. I don’t forsee MI help since a power hitting MI is a rarity and much too expensive in terms of prospects.

by ubeddie on Jul 6, 2008 10:00 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep

14 or 15 starts. Lets say he wins 10 of them. How many would they have won anyways, without CC? I know there is no way to predict that, but I’d guess 6-7. So basically they are buying 3-4 more wins in the 2nd half.

I just don’t know that it’s worth it.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 6, 2008 10:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

it is the differential that is important

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jul 6, 2008 11:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BOOMHEADSHOT

that’s the whole fucking point of a win-now team and one year rentals. They’ve been in rebuild mode for many many years now, now it’s time for them to keep taking shots….mortgaging the future is such a ridiculous term for teams on 5 year plans.

You play to win the world series not to horde prospects for the chance of maybe playing the world series down the road.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 7, 2008 12:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right

and 10 is a generous guess, too. That might not even pan out that way. He’s never pitched in the NL in his life. Let’s see what happens.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 7, 2008 12:19 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're missing the point.
14 or 15 starts. Lets say he wins 10 of them

Ok, lets say he wins 10 of them…and in 3 of the remaining 5 he pitches well enough to keep them in the game and they win it after he leaves the game. so he’s good for 6-7 more wins than his replacement level player.

that’s twice the distance they are out in the division right now, and they make the wildcard easily even if they lose the division. Not only that, the team with the best pitching in October usually wins. Boston’s two title teams, the D-Backs, and both Marlins title teams had GREAT 1-2 punches in their rotations. This gives Milwaukee a great 1-2 punch. If I’m the Cubs this does concern me, because Zambrano hasn’t been lights out in big games unless he’s facing the Cardinals, they can’t seem to stay healthy, and the Brewers have a ton of quality players and a much better starting rotation. Braun is also the type of player who can change an entire series with his bat when he gets hot, I don’t think the Cubs have a guy like that unless you count Ramirez, who is a fairly streaky hitter.I think you’re going to see the Northsiders make a move to upgrade their starting staff before the end of the year, and it isn’t going to involve bringing up the Notre Dame wide receiver they have at AAA either.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 12:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wait and see

it took C.C. six games to bring his ERA under 10 this year. these moves get overblown.

by baw on Jul 7, 2008 12:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

true

but he’s a notorious slow starter—and look at his ERA+ and FIP in August and September…he’s lights out in those two months. That’s what you’re buying if you’re the Brewers.

Overblown? Hardly. Sabathia is one of the 5 or 6 best pitchers in baseball, won a Cy Young last year for a team that nearly went to the World Series if it wasn’t for Josh Beckett and Papi.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 1:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

who is one of the other 5 or 6 best pitchers in baseball, recently making the switch from AL to NL for a “contender”?

by baw on Jul 7, 2008 1:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

which brings up a great point

C.C. is moving from the American League to the National League where there’s a marked dropoff in the quality of offenses he will be facing…....plus most of those teams have never faced him so he’s got yet another advantage in a half season.

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 2:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

exactly as johan did.

this is my point. AL ace does not a contender make.

by baw on Jul 7, 2008 5:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and Johan had his worst season in 6 years

last year with Minnesota and it wasn’t even close. And for the record, he has improved (slightly) since moving to the National League.

Oh, and he went to a shitty team with way too many old guys who can’t perform.

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 6:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agreed

but hindsight is 20/20. we’ll see what happens with c.c.

by baw on Jul 7, 2008 8:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

its not hindsight

when you’re signing a guy who just basically had a career worst season. why do you think the Red Sox and Yankees were rather luke warm the whole time?

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 8:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it most definitely is hindsight

...if you sign a guy to a nearly $140MM contract over a half-dozen years and then the team is bad enough that the manager gets fired at 2 a.m. some morning. not johan’s fault, yes, and i am oversimplifying, but my original point was that these deals often are overblown. obviously, the santana deal was. that’s all.

look back: boston offered jon lester, coco crisp, jed lowrie and a PTBNL for santana. they declined to include buchholz or jacoby ellsbury. that does not make them “luke warm,” and it’s not, like, vastly inferior to the sabathia haul (one can’t-miss prospect, two minor-league pitchers and a PTBNL). the yankees offered phil hughes, melky cabrera and a third player. that is a little on the warm side, but theo epstein is smarter than the NY f.o., so there’s your difference. either way, in the entire lead-up to the trade, i recall many folks dismissing the mets’ chances, as their offer was not as good as the sox or yanks. that’s how “luke warm” the MSM teams were.

run a .0000428-second search on metsblog.com and you will find plenty of fawning over the santana deal…

Yeah baby!!!!! The start of a dynasty, the best pitcher on earth, this had to get done and all the signs of Johan were there all along, I always believed as long as Johan was a twin we had an above average chance of landing him…Omar is a god for playing his hand with style and patience….Now the Mets are highly competetive, and the Dynasty starts now.

...with lots of “now we have the best rotation in baseball” talk. this is what i think about when i hear various lips quivering about sheets and sabathia.

i think c.c. will be hittable. he has lots of wear on his arm; how much longer will he be considered “durable” instead of “damaged”? i guess the brewers don’t care, as long as he lasts through this season. what exactly was wrong with him at the beginning of the year, though? that wasn’t just a slow start.

it will all be fun to watch. i may end up eating my words.

by baw on Jul 8, 2008 12:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it feels like you just threw up on me.

Okay. first of all giving Johan Santana that deal was not a smart deal to make. Period. It’s a bad dea. It was then, and it looks worse now.

Second. The Sox were only in the biddig until they realized the Yankees weren’t really serious. Then they started backing players out of the their deal left and right and wouldn’t commit to anything with the Twins so they ended up going with the only team that was willing to give them anything close to what they wanted. And that primary goal was a major league outfielder. Which is why they never bit on the sox offer since they wouldn’t give up Elsbury and insisted on Coco.

Third, I will not go to metsblog.com for any amount of time because I could care less what they thought or still do think, but I can tell you what I thought and that was they had an old lineup that would hit at times but they had zero pitching outside of Santana. Hmmm. Seriously, a lineup that depends on Carlos Delgado, Moises Alou, and Luis Castillo for a big chunk of their lineup is not good. AND THEY HAVE FERNANDO TATIS AS A BACKUP UTILITY PLAYER!!!!!!

Anyway, as far as C.C. goes, just keep on thinkin he’ll be nothing better than average and he’s gonna average 5 or 6 innings and he’ll get knocked around. Keep on thinkin’ he’s “damaged”. Yada, yada, yada. Keep on….

by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2008 1:17 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how nice

a puke reference and then a “yada, yada, yada.” can i get a nanny-nanny-boo-boo next?

this discussion was different before you jumped into it. fourstick outlined the “yay c.c.” argument and i said, well, it was “yay johan” not too long ago.

and somewhat deservedly so, because he’s awesome. BUT according to you, the mets should have known the best pitcher in the world was going to get “drastically” worse and they would have “zero pitching” otherwise (both of those claims are false, by the way).

contrary to HAVING FERNANDO TATIS AS A BACKUP UTILITY PLAYER (thanks for shouting), the mets offense, while less than stellar, is 5th in the NL in runs per game the mets are scoring more than the brewers… and the cardinals, in case you haven’t noticed. i would describe the mets pitching as league average.

i agree that they are old and stuff, but they also have some very good players.

anyway, i don’t quite know which of my initial points you vehemently object to. the “wait and see” thing? should i just drop it and admit that yes, c.c. sabathia is going to singlehandedly vault the brewers into the world series and win it for them?

i will continue arguing a beleaguered point with you if you’d like. santana and sabathia were both seen as missing pieces for championship-caliber teams. santana hasn’t been able to provide that thus far, and, IMO, neither will sabathia. maybe it’s just me hoping, but at least i can be civil about it.

by baw on Jul 8, 2008 2:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thats exactly it

you have no basis for making statements like “c.c. will be hittable” other than that’s your opinion and its based in absolutley nothing but hope. Hardly a solid foundation to base an argument on. And that’s fine if you want to live with your head burried in the sand, but there is nothing that would lead to C.C. coming to the Brewers and all of a sudden becoming “hittable”.

But, whatever, it doesn’t matter, it you want to act like that team has pitching and isn’t relying on guys who are too old and often hurt is a good idea, then keep on.

Obviously that “opinion” of yours isn’t changing anytime soon. But, you’re wrong and nanny-nanny-boo-boo.

by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2008 12:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my opinion

is just that, yes, but it’s based on more than hope. it’s based on the amount of wear on sabathia’s arm and the vulnerability he displayed at the beginning of this season. anyway, thanks for your permission.

by baw on Jul 8, 2008 4:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't like the Mets

But come on, liking the Cardinals (or any team) doesn’t mean you have to abandon so many remnants of objectivity. For instance:

Seriously, a lineup that depends on Carlos Delgado, Moises Alou, and Luis Castillo for a big chunk of their lineup is not good

Couldn’t you say the same about the Cardinals relying on Izturis, Miles, Kennedy, and Molina? Would you leave out the likes of Pujols, Glaus, Ankiel, and Ludwick? With the Mets, you can’t ignore Wright, Beltran, Reyes, and Church. Despite their struggles and their age, they aren’t chopped liver.

by jdub176 on Jul 8, 2008 2:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know...

were you? Indeed, no one picked the Cardinals to run away with the division (or anything close to that), but I think most thought the Mets would face a stiff challenge from the Phils and Braves. As it stands, they’re only 2.5 games out.

by jdub176 on Jul 8, 2008 4:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

actually there were plenty

who picked the Mets to run away with the division once they acquired Santana. And of course I didn’t pick the Cardinals to win the division, let alone run away with it. But that’s sorta the point I was making. You compared the Mets roster to the Cardinals roster. Big difference in what most thought those two teams would do this year so there really is no comparison between the two. No one realistically thought the Cardinals had a team that should compete for the division. Yet, many felt the Mets were far and away the best team in the league with the addition of Santana (even better than the cubs). And frankly, they’re lucky they’re ONLY 2.5 games back. Had they not spent 137 million dollars on Johan they’d be hanging out with the Braves in 4th place.

Also, this has nothing to do with me liking or not liking the Mets. However, it does have something to do with looking at their lineup in March and saying, “hmm, I just don’t see it. Too many broken parts and bad/average pitching”.

Basically, what this conversation has boiled down to is a disagreement of whether the Johan signing was a good signing. I say ‘no” you guys apparantly think it was. I really don’t think any of us is going to change our positions so this is bascially becoming futile.

by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2008 4:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You compared the Mets roster to the Cardinals roster.

I know the point you were making, I was just being sarcastic.

I was just pointing out that it’s silly to list the likes of Castillo, Delgado, and Alou and leave out guys like Reyes, Wright, and Beltran. I could have “compared” them to any team.

by jdub176 on Jul 8, 2008 5:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, honestly

one could look at the Beltran signing the same way except Beltran never was near the level Santana was for an extended period of time.

by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2008 5:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK

And I would agree that Beltran is overpaid. That doesn’t take away from the fact that he’s a fine player.

by jdub176 on Jul 8, 2008 5:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right

and I realized after i hit “post” that my comment really was sorta out there. It just seems that the Mets have a bit of a history of trying to compete with the popularity of the Yankees and Red Sox and tend to overpay (in my opinion) for too many players and wonder why they can’t get anywhere when they tie their hands with contracts like the Beltran, Santana, Martinez, Alou (which was only a 1 year + a team option which they exercised for whatever reason), Castillo, etc.

They have a history of this, so I guess it shouldn’t be of surprise why I would disagree with the Santana contract since I disagree with pretty much every contract they agree to.

by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2008 6:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

in hindsight

Methinks the Yankees wished they had landed Johan. Just a hunch. You’re overblowing the whole “last season was his worst ever, and it wasn’t even close!” business. His WHIP was right around 1.00. He struck out 235 batters in 219 IP. You make it sound like he had a Mark Mulder in 2004-esque season, when he most certainly didn’t.

by jdub176 on Jul 8, 2008 1:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

His WHIP was closer to 1.100 than it was to 1.00

and his ERA+ dropped 30 points from the previous year to a level it had never been since 2001 which is the year before he bacame a full-time starter. So, no I don’t think I’m overblowing a pitcher who under-performs his career numbers so drastically in a contract year. And for the record, he’s by and far the best pitcher on the Mets but not one I’d like to give 137 Million dollars over 6 years to. In 2013, he’s gonna make $25.5 milloin a year!

by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2008 1:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but

I don’t think that’s a drastic underperformance. He was still fucking awesome last year—just not as fucking awesome as he’d been the years previous. “Drastic” would resemble something like what Andruw Jones has gone through the last couple years, and as I said before, Mulder’s 2004 season was a fairly drastic departure from where he’d been.

The Santana deal was indeed fawned over, and rightly so: he’s been the best pitcher in the game the last few years. Who wouldn’t be shitting their pants over signing him?

by jdub176 on Jul 8, 2008 1:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree, Andruw Jones' contract with the Dodgers

was ridiculous. There’s really no better writting on the wall than what happened with Jones. He’s been bad for a couple of years.

As far as Johan, sure any team would be lucky to have him, but would you want to tie yourself to a pitcher for 6 years and commit 137 million dollars when he just threw his worst season in 6 years? Heck, we’ve got people around here who freak out at the thought of a 3 or 4 year deal for a pitcher. This is 6 years. 137 million dollars. So, I guess to answer your question, yes I WOULD be shitting my pants over signing him.

Maybe I’m biased a little. One of my best friends lives in Minneapolis and is a big Twins fan. In talking to him, I hear what the local opinion is of the whole thing and tend to trust his assessment of what was happening. I still stand by that becaus I feel he is a very good evaluator of talent. And, I guess I’ll conceed that “drastic underperformance” was an overstatement. But it should not be ignored when you look at his body of work. Then again, it’s not like he’s gotten back to that previous form and he’s got another 5 years to go on the deal. Lucky Mets.

by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2008 12:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

knit picky much?

Glad you clarified that his WHIP was .1 higher. You know, because jdub did say that his WHIP was “right around 1.00.”

I was going to point out that glaring flaw, but you know . . . its not a big fucking deal.

by Ray Lankford on Jul 8, 2008 9:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's called heading in a direction

they gave that contract to the Johan that performed the 5 years prior, not the one who is getting worse. What happens in 2 years if that trend continues? It’s not like it wasn’t right there. They gave him 137 million over 6 years, wouldn’t you have some sort of caution giving that to a guy who completely underperformed his carre?

by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2008 12:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think there's any reason to harangue the Mets for signing Johan

because you and your buddy think that Johan’s stats will progress in a linear fashion. I just don’t think it makes any sense to say, “well, according to his numbers last year, he ‘completely underperformed’ so its dumb to sign him because he’s going to be an Andruw Jones before you know it.”

His numbers last year were still sparkling, and its not as if Johan is an aging vet trying to hold on. From 2004 to 2005 his numbers dipped a little, but guess what, he improved from 2005 to 2006. Stats don’t progress in a rigid linear fashion.

Now, if you object outright to any 6 year $137 million deals to pitchers because of the injury risk, then you have a point. One that I might agree with, actually. But in that case, the reason the contract is ridiculous isn’t because his WHIP was slightly higher than average (at a still stellar level). Its because the contracts are by nature ridiculous.

by Ray Lankford on Jul 8, 2008 2:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I never said Santana was the next Andruw Jones

Anyway, i understand that if you want starting pitching from the free agent list, you’re going to overpay for it. And there are many reasons not to give someone a 6 year deal (as you pointed out), I just think a combination of having basically a career worst season in a walk year is yet another one of those reasons. We may differ.

And as far as my “buddy”, I didn’t feel like getting in to it because I actually can’t stand it when people talk about their “sources” and how they know people and whatever. And I kinda cringed a little when I wrote it too, so I really have no defense for your dismissal of that point. The only thing I can say about him is he has been involved in baseball at many different levels not only as a player but also spent time in evaluation, plus he’s a pretty big Twins fan and watches as many games as you or I do Cardinal games. So, I tend to take him at his word in regards to someone he see’s on an extremely regular basis. I’m sure you feel you have a pretty good understanding of the abilites of the Cardinals players and scoff when someone who doesn’t watch those players forms an opinion when they don’t watch them play everday. It’s as simple as that. Take it for what it’s worth.

by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2008 4:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i say find an idiot gm and trade carpenter

ian kinsler for chris carpenter…do it mo…DO IT!!!!

in all seriousness…this does not spell the end for the cards, but mo should not make any desperation trades…i don’t want garcia, rasmus, anderson, or todd traded unless it nets us a young talented cost controlled player in return…and really i don’t want rasmus or garcia traded for anyone

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 6, 2008 11:31 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Garcia doesn't have much value right now anyways

He got blown up again tonight in AAA and his numbers are pretty awful.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 6, 2008 11:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you're kidding right?

he’s a 21 year old lefty who has shown flashes of dominance at AAA….sure he struggles sometimes, but he still strikes a ton of guys out…..i guarantee there are a ton of teams out there that would require him in any package for a star player

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 7, 2008 12:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i do think that there is a competitive juice in all GMs

that make them want to “win” the trade deadline contest. i just hope mo keeps his eye on the future and dosen’t go for any short-term fixes that negatively impact the next couple of years. hard to not react when they have done so well this year, but we are still behind the cubs and brewers in terms of talent in the near term, just got to swallow that and keep our eye on the ball that is 09 and 10.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jul 6, 2008 11:41 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not that I am rooting for the Brewers now

but if we don’t get to the playoffs…I am glad that a team in the NL is stepping it up so the Cubs won’t have a cakewalk to the WS. I just wish the Brewers were in a different division. I will become a Brew Crew fan big time in the playoffs if our boys don’t make it.

by KYCards on Jul 7, 2008 12:08 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Cubs wouldn't have a cakewalk anyways

even if they can’t hit a lick, the DBacks rotation of Webb, Haren and Johnson in a short series is downright nasty.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 7, 2008 12:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not so sure the Snakes will even make the playoffs.

But I get what you’re saying. Bad thing is if the Cubs keep on the pace they are at they will have home field throughout the playoffs…...that’s not good.

by KYCards on Jul 7, 2008 12:16 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the Cubs

will never have a cakewalk to the world series

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 4:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think its

pretty crazy for anybody to say the brewers just became the better team

whats their RS/RA vs the Cubs?- this super awesome offense we hear so much about hasnt out performed the Cubs

Whats their SP ERA vs the Cubs?

How does their bullpen stack up vs the Cubs?

How is their defense vs the Cubs?

Oh and they are 3.5 games back after a month in which the Cubs who supposedly cant win on the road played 22 of 31 games on the road without Soriano and still have a signifigant lead.

is there ANY reason other than some people cant stand the fact that the cubs have a good team and the brews just made a sexy trade that a rational person would say the brews are better than the cubs right now?

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 12:28 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This doesn't mean a whole lot right now

but the Cubs have 38 more home games while the Brewers have 40. Plus the final 3 games of the season the Cubs play AT Milwaukee. Not counting our boys out but it could get interesting….

by KYCards on Jul 7, 2008 12:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sure

anything could happen but a betting man would do very well to put his $ on the Cubs even with Sabathia. The brews havent outperformed the Cubs in any facet of the game and CC Sabathia as great as he is isnt going to win 15 starts for them by himself. This is still a team that cant get on base, managed by Ned Yost and who cant protect leads when their streaky offense is running hot

I think they will win the WC and have a good shot at the NLCS but to annoit them already before they have done much of anything is silly

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 12:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

home runs

which as you know are a part of offense, except, you know, thats not the whole story is it?

go check out team OBP or slugging

or cherry pick one category and run with it

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 12:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i'm aware of those stats

you said any facet of the game. relax.

by baw on Jul 7, 2008 12:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well

Then don’t embellish by saying “any facet of the game” then. He’s right, the Brewers hit more homers than the Cubs do.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 1:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and trades

they’ve obliterated them in the trades department.

by adiueordie on Jul 7, 2008 12:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and wins

Brewers have beaten the cub 4 out of 6 games.

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 2:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh c'mon

you can’t cherry pick one stat category like that. Who cares about wins, anyway?

[end sarcasm]

by Ray Lankford on Jul 7, 2008 8:19 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is the same Brewers team that.......

has went 4-2 against the Cubs this year all games played in Wrigley I believe the Brewers and Baltimore are the only teams to win a series in Wrigley and the Crew has already done it twice this year. As a Brewers fan I would be content to just win the WC since we would not even have to see the Cubs till the NLCS since if the WC team comes out of the Central they will not play the Central division winner in the first round. I am not saying the Brewers cannot win the division but hell right now the three best teams in the NL are the Cubs Brewers and Cards any of you guys worried about having to beat a NL West team in the first round?

If things keep going the way they are going the NLCS is going to be NL Central winner vs. the WC which will be out of the NL Central. Now that we have CC I like our chances to be one of those two teams. And to be honest I hope you guys are the other team for 2 reasons first it would kill Cubs fans(100 years of sucking is not something to be proud of) and it would give us a chance to finally get some revenge for 82 ;)

Here is to one of us catching the Cubs before the AS break

Its all about the Bullpen this season that is the key.

by WSB Chris on Jul 7, 2008 12:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

this is all

talk.

there is no stats/evidence to prove you have a better team. im sorry, but you think you do but you sure havent shown it. 4-2? who gives a fuck, thats such a small sample size and i seem to recall at least 1 win was a BS.

Yes, the Brews are going to be very tough in a short playoff series assuming you get there and good for the fans that they have a team to root for. Personally, I have no idea why brewer nation is so obessed with the cubs or the fans because they dont spend much time thinking about you guys.

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 12:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

of course it's all talk

that’s what this place is here for. for someone who doesn’t think about other teams, you sure make a lot of spirited comments here and on brew crew.

you can compare teams and be nice about it, you know.

by baw on Jul 7, 2008 12:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

its not

mean spirited i actually like watching both the cards and the brewers play- i guess my reaction is because the brewers made a big trade (and unless the reach the playoffs its a huge risk for a small market team to throw away elite prospects for rental players) to give them the crown for the NL Central.

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 12:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well

it is an impact trade. it is the kind of deal that could decide the division.

it could also mean nothing. both opinions are valid but i wouldn’t go haranguing people because they dare say their team is better.

everyone knows the cubs are the best team right now. they may still be that team at season’s end, but they are going to have to keep up appearances.

this is the happy-go-luckiest year i’ve experienced as a cardinal fan. i wouldn’t be surprised to see the team falter, but it sure wouldn’t hurt us to miss the playoffs as much as it would you or, now, milwaukee.

by baw on Jul 7, 2008 1:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that was harsh

and the cubs-brewers rivalry does exist, and should only heat up as october draws nearer.

by adiueordie on Jul 7, 2008 12:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it exists

to brewers fans alot more than cubs fans. we pay attention when the come into town and are good. its not like the cubs-cards or cubs-sox rivarly at all

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 12:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh

I don’t think anyone said that it’s like Cards-Cubs or Cubs-Sox.

by jdub176 on Jul 7, 2008 1:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and no one should

did anyone hear about a cubs-brewers rivalry before last year?

a true rivalry means that even when both teams are shit the games count and the cubs and brews have been shit for a long time before the last few years and nobody gave a hoot when they came into town

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 1:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well then

I’m not sure anyone’s saying it’s fueled by anything more than the teams being good this year, and to a lesser extent, last year.

by jdub176 on Jul 7, 2008 1:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They will if Milwaukee wins the division

but come on just the whole Chicago vs Milwaukee big brother little brother rivalry makes Cubs vs. Brewers a rivalry not on the level of Cubs Cards of course it does not have that history but being 90 miles apart also makes it rivalry Cubs fans sure made it seem like a rivalry last year. Give it another 30 years to build up some history and it will be as spirited as Cubs Cards.

how long have the Rays and Red Soxs been playing each other but they do have a rivalry feel going this year does it make it Reds Yankees no but they still have the rivalry feel.

Why are Brewers fans obsessed with with the Cubs maybe all those years when stuck up cubs fans invaded Miller Park being their normal jerk selves(Unlike the Cards fans who also travel well but are not flaming A-holes like Cubs fans) Plus it goes back to the rivalry between the two cities. Guess what ACB if the Brewers end up looking down at theCubs when the season is over the Cubs fans will care.

Its all about the Bullpen this season that is the key.

by WSB Chris on Jul 7, 2008 10:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

shortsighted...

Let’s break it down then (in terms of OPS+ and ERA+ in 2008):

1B: Lee (126) vs. Fielder (117) Advantage: PUSH

2B: DeRosa (118) vs. Weeks (78) Advantage: CUBS

SS: Theriot (97) vs. Hardy (115) Advantage: BREWERS

3B: Ramirez (126) vs. Hall (79) or Branyan (161) Advantage: CUBS (but if Branyan keeps hitting….)

LF: Soriano (124) vs. Braun (120) Advantage: PUSH (slight lean to Brewers because of health concerns)

CF: Edmonds (138)* vs. Cameron (110) Advantage: CUBS (but only if JEd keeps hitting….)

RF: Fukudome (112) vs. Hart (119) Advantage: PUSH

C: Soto (132) vs. Kendall (87) Advantage: CUBS

SP1: Zambrano (151) vs. Sheets (156) Advantage: PUSH

SP2: Lilly (100) vs. Sabathia (109) Advantage: BREWERS

SP3: Dempster (132) vs. Parra (117) Advantage: CUBS

SP4: Marquis (94) vs. Suppan (100) Advantage: BREWERS

SU: Marmol (122) vs. Shouse (201) Advantage: BREWERS

CL: Wood (154) vs. Torres (149) Advantage: PUSH

I think if you look at this analysis, Sabathia really does match them up much better with the Cubs, and he shortens a ton of games to get to Shouse and Torres, who have been lights out. The only glaring weaknesses are obviously at second base, middle relief, and catcher. But Fielder could start eating meat again and hit 25 bombs in the second half, and Bill Hall could actually start hitting like he did two years ago. I also think that the Cubs having a glaring hole in CF considering how cruddy Edmonds has been in the second half of every season since 2004. These teams are much closer after this trade, and I’m afraid the Cardinals will be looking up at both of them in the second half

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 1:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

brian

shouse is not better than carlos marmol

i mean thats just insane- and marquis was a playoff starter last year so i doubt he will make it this year

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 1:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that should be

wasnt* a playoff starter

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 1:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But Rich Hill

was a playoff starter and he’s not going to be this year. Take your pick from Marquis, Marshall, or Gallagher for the 4th starter…

by Jumsy on Jul 7, 2008 10:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

gallagher

all day

the kid is gonna be real good

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 12:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just like Rich Hill was gonna be real good?

Or Mark Prior, or Angel Guzman, or Kerry Wood, or…..............................

He’s a 4th starter at best.

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 1:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no kidding

Two offers that were on the table in the last few years…

Mark Prior for Miguel Tejada - STRAIGHT UP - before the 2004 season.

Rich Hill and a prospect for Brian Roberts during the winter meetings 2007 and this spring.

Gosh, I wonder if Cubs fans wish they’d have taken either of those?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 8, 2008 12:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and further

these position break down things dont really mean much when you look at how as a team they have done

the brewers offense hasnt been better than the cardnials let alone the cubs and their defense is still subpar.

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 1:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Defense?

The Cubs certainly aren’t breaking any team defense records with Soriano and an 85 year old Jim Edmonds out there hobbling around. Not to mention that the Brewers D has been pretty decent since Cameron returned to the lineup. It isn’t as good as the Cards, but then St Louis doesn’t have 2 pitchers who can strike out 10 guys each time out either…

As a team, the Brewers haven’t played as well, YET. They also have some players underperforming their career averages (Fielder, Hall, Weeks, Hart). The Cubs have some guys playing over their heads a bit (Edmonds, DeRosa) These teams are much closer than you’re letting on, and you know it, otherwise you wouldn’t be so angry about refuting evidence contrary to your belief.

I never said that Shouse is “better” than Marmol, but he’s certainly PERFORMING better at this point, and the numbers back that up. Wood has blown some saves this season—and they weren’t exactly all 1 run leads either were they? Torres has been awfully good since taking over the closer role in April.

The Brewers are 4-2 vs the Cubs this year, and won a series at Wrigley. The fact that one of the losses was a blown save is irrelevant, it’s still a loss. The Cubs will have to travel to Milwaukee more in the second half, that’s an advantage for the Brewers.

To top it all off, your own fucking manager was worried about the Brewers BEFORE they got Sabathia, so I’m sure he’s more worried now.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 1:22 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

is lou

really going to say “no im not worried about anyone, we got this shit locked up”?

shouse has “performed” better because he is a freaking LOOGY

he has 19 K’s in 29 innings- go check out marmols K/9 and he does as a set up man vs RHP and LHP

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 1:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you

don’t seem worried at all—which is an awful arrogant stance to take against a team that has a winning record against your ballclub this year.

I’m not arguing with you, but I framed the debate placed on performance THIS YEAR. I don’t care about K/9 you goon, lets look at K/9 for the Brewers staff with CC vs. the Cubs staff then? You can cherry pick stats all you want, I tried to put things in perspective by looking at stats that gives a general comparison between players.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 1:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

fourstick..

You’re the one who initially said “Advantage: SHOUSE” based on you know…one stat.

by jdub176 on Jul 7, 2008 1:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yah...big difference

in ERA+ vs K/9 though isn’t there?

One factors in ERA, ballpark, etc. while the other measures how often a guy strikes people out per 9 innings.

K/9 doesn’t give a general comparison between those two pitchers. One is a strikeout pitcher, one is not. There’s more than one way to get people out. Shouse has been more effective this year than Marmol at preventing runs and getting people out. Marmol was great last year, but he sure wasn’t very good for the Cubs in the playoffs and hasn’t been all that effective in big situations this season either. Not that he’s bad, I never said he was, all I stated was that – to this point in the season – Shouse has been better.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 8, 2008 12:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Couple of criticisms

I’d say first base is an advantage for the Cubs. Lee leads Fielder by 9 points of OPS+ and plays much better defense (I know you didn’t say anything about defense, but still). However, you gave Sabathia an advantage over Lilly based on a 9 point ERA+ edge. That reeks of favoring the Brewers just out of anti-Cub venom :D

Also, Dempster is definitely their #2 starter right now over Lilly. I also agree with ACB that even though the ERA+ this year has a dramatic difference, you have to go with Marmol over Shouse. Marmol’s ERA+ last year was 326(!) and he’s been struggling lately due to overuse. Shouse will be 40 in September. Advantage Cubs.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2008 1:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Defense

I didn’t bring up defense simply because I don’t think the teams are that far apart defensively. It’s a pretty much a toss up, although I think I’d favor the Brewers because of Weeks and Cameron.

I made a PUSH at 1B because Fielder hasn’t really gotten going this year, and Lee is pretty much right at his statistical average since coming to the Cubs. You could argue that either way.

As far as Marmol vs Shouse, if we want to go back to last year and compare we’d have a big advantage for the Brewers right now wouldn’t we? Fielder, Hardy, Braun, Hart, Weeks, and so on were all performing better in 2007 than they are this year. Shouse has been good, and Marmol has been touchable this year. I’m not saying he’s bad—I’m simply saying Shouse has been very good and has been used correctly. I also give the Brewers and edge because they’re hitting the pitcher 8th. :-D

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 1:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

advantage D. Lee

Fielder is a younger player, so I wouldn’t count on him hitting (although he certainly could do a lot of damage). his defense is far inferior to Lee’s though.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 4:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

eh

I don’t like position-by-position breakdowns in baseball. They’re more useful in a sport like basketball, where your point guard will actually play against the opposing team’s point guard.

Oh, and in 2005, Edmonds had an .892 OPS in the second half. How cruddy.

by jdub176 on Jul 7, 2008 1:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

i dont care for them either

team stats are a better indicator of how good a team is and up to this point the vaunted brewer offense hasnt outpeformed the cubs or the birds

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 1:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Vaunted?

I didn’t say they had a vaunted offense, but I do think they’re due to start hitting at some point.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 1:25 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

more on Edmonds

His 2006 second half stats aren’t bad either. His OPS from July 1st – September 30th: .931….this was in 49 games.

by jdub176 on Jul 7, 2008 1:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do you really think Edmonds

playing only 49 games for the Cubs in the second half is going to help them? They have nobody else to man centerfield, so he has to play 9 out of every 10 games to keep that from being an advantage.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 1:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not to mention

That was 2 years ago and he is 38 years old right now and wasn’t worth a crap all of 2007 and the first month of 2008.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 1:27 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you said...
I also think that the Cubs having a glaring hole in CF considering how cruddy Edmonds has been in the second half of every season since 2004.

This assertion was wrong. In 2006, he had like a .740 OPS going into July. The rest of the way, it was .931.

by jdub176 on Jul 7, 2008 1:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ok

but it was 49 games!!! Small sample size alert

The Cardinals made the postseason that year in spite of Jimmy’s performance, not because of it. He played 49 of their last 100 games—if you put that in this year’s context, I’d rather have Cameron for 100 games than Edmonds for 49, wouldn’t you?

Just because he has a .931 OPS from July on in 2006, that doesn’t mean he helped the ballclub. He didn’t

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 1:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

good god

Let’s say he didn’t play at all in the second half—erase those 49 games of fine hitting. Replace them with someone who puts up a .760 OPS. Does that hurt the team?

by jdub176 on Jul 7, 2008 1:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you're assuming...

that he could have been counted on to play at all. Easy to make when looking at the statistics NOW, but at the time the trainers weren’t sure he was going to come back at all that season. If he puts up a .931 OPS for the month of August and then missed the rest of this season, does that help or hurt the team? It hurts their team because he won’t be there as the season winds down and the games become more important.

My point is that you can’t count on him to be healthy or as good as he’s been the last month for the rest of the season, based on that fact that he was terrible last year and the first part of this year, and hasn’t been healthy for a whole season for quite a while.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 1:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wrong wrong wrong wrong

You said he’s been cruddy in the second half since 2004. You were wrong.

If he puts up a .931 OPS for the month of August and then missed the rest of this season, does that help or hurt the team? It hurts their team because he won’t be there as the season winds down and the games become more important.

That’s a silly hypothetical, because it’s not close to what actually happened. 49 games of .931 OPS is a net positive. Do you think he got injured on purpose or something? Would you rather he didn’t play at all?

by jdub176 on Jul 7, 2008 2:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and furthermore...

I seriously doubt Edmonds will continue this pace. That’s not what I’ve been saying. But the notion that his play suffers, or that it’s “cruddy” in the second half is patently absurd.

by jdub176 on Jul 7, 2008 2:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

all games are equal

doesn’t matter if they are in the first or second half

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 5:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But when the season gets late

and the sphincter clinches ever so tighlty, those games at the end become much more difficult to win. Just ask any recent cub player who’s had to play in that nuthouse late in the season.

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 6:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

or the Rockies last season

it seemed to help them quite a bit being under pressure

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 7:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

certain guys can step it up

and they were chasing, big diference from being the chased…

See: New York Mets.

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 8:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

definition of false:

“considering how cruddy Edmonds has been in the second half of every season since 2004.”

2004
1st half (83 games): .984 OPS
2nd half (70 games): 1.156

2005
1st half (76 games): .942
2nd half (66 games): .892

2006
1st half (70 games): .806
2nd half (40 games): .854

2007
1st half (56 games): .702
2nd half (61 games): .756

by baw on Jul 7, 2008 1:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

one more time

When a guy has an OPS north of .900 for his career, and he puts up numbers in a 49-game stretch that are similar to those career numbers, it’s silly to put up a “small sample size alert”

by jdub176 on Jul 7, 2008 2:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

especially when you youself limited the potential sample size

to a half-season at best ;)

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 7, 2008 2:22 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and I say that

..because in 2006, Edmonds was arguably just a year removed from his prime. The “alert” would be more applicable to his stretch with the Cubs this year, but that doesn’t mean he’s going to tank it in the second half and play like he did with the Padres.

by jdub176 on Jul 7, 2008 2:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

holy F***ing Christ

We’ve totally lost the point here. Sure, a .931 OPS is a net positive for 49 games. Let’s then extrapolate that with the other guy playing his position for the other 51 games. If that guy is has a .700 OPS then the net for the position would be around .815 or so.

I’m saying, and have said all along, that I’d much rather have a player like Cameron, who plays better defense at this point in his career and is OPSing at .840 right now, than Edmonds who I believe is hitting over his head and has been banged up nearly every second half since 2004. It’s been stated on this blog that his replacements in centerfield last year out OPS’d him on the season. He got to the Cubs in June when the wind starts blowing out and power numbers go up. If I was the Cubs, I wouldn’t want to have to count on him OPSing at his current rate when the wind starts blowing in in September and October when I’m trying to make a World Series run.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 8, 2008 12:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ahhh

So originally, Edmonds was “cruddy” in every second half since 2004. Now he’s just been banged up….in every second half since 2004.

And I just said I don’t think he’ll keep this pace.

by jdub176 on Jul 8, 2008 4:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

actually we do

his name is felix pie or reed johnson if you like scrappy white players or put murton in RF and use Fukudome in CF

OR keep using Edmonds who despite what you say is playing a fine CF and give us good AB’s

by ACB on Jul 7, 2008 1:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh

yeah. “they have nobody else to man center field” is a little disingenuous when you’re not even talking about the man with the most innings at that position: reed johnson.

by baw on Jul 7, 2008 1:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol

if Reed Johnson/Felix Pie/Fukudome were so damn good, they why did they sign Jim Edmonds in the first place?

Felix Pie can’t hit AAA pitching right now, Reed Johnson is not an everyday player—and Lou would tell you as much. Murton is no better than average, and doesn’t have the arm to play RF if you move Fukudome to center. That would make them worse defensively.

I’ll take Mike Cameron over all of those guys for the second half of 2008 thanks.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2008 1:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

speaking of Fukudome in CF

i’m pretty nervous about that for the all star game

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 5:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

who cares

cub fans deserve what they ask for.

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 6:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's assuming they make it to the world series

hopefully they will see what they have done, and he will be taken out early in the game

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 7:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not sure what you're saying here

But yes, if Edmonds puts up a .931 OPS in 49 games the rest of the way, that would help the Cubs. I’m not saying he will, but still.

by jdub176 on Jul 7, 2008 1:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

brewers

have no closer!!! torres and wood-push-no way!! soriano has made some bad plays but dont run on that arm!

Dear SBnation, We need our own server here at BCB seeing how its became very slow due to enormous amounts of traffic. P.S. Impeach Bud Selig!!!

by cubsluver22 on Jul 7, 2008 1:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Soriano, arm?

why do you think he gets so many chances to throw people out? Because his arm isn’t all the good and teams know they can run on it. That, and he never sets his body up properly to make the catch before the throw.

Torres has been as effective as Wood since he took over the closer’s role. Just because he isn’t a name doesn’t mean he’s not as good. Torres also doesn’t have a sordid arm injury history either. Wood does and all cubs fans oughta know that he could break down at any time.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 8, 2008 12:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This does illuminate one thing

The brewers have been over-performing- they’ve won more games than they should have won, even with a cruddy bullpen- but if you look at the offensive numbers the starters for that team are putting up, they have a number of player who are massively under-performing. I would say everybody but Hart and hardy are under-performing significantly (and Branyan, of course, but he started out as a “who knows” kind of guy).

The second half of this season they could do anything. They could easily all go crazy and score 6+ runs a game the way the cubs did for a while there. if they do that, either us or the Cubs are screwed- it’s not a foregone conclusion that it’ll be us, though.

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 7, 2008 2:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but

i do belive by melvin getting cc he will indeed throw the chips and go all in. i see them getting a rauch from the nats and another piece or 2. i see the cubs gteting another starter and a piece or 2. maybe the cards do the same. the deciding facter will be health. as all 3 of us have big time concerns in that area.

Dear SBnation, We need our own server here at BCB seeing how its became very slow due to enormous amounts of traffic. P.S. Impeach Bud Selig!!!

by cubsluver22 on Jul 7, 2008 3:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed.

Their postive difference over their Pythag record is second in baseball, only Anaheim is better (and I don’t see anyone saying the Angels are crap…). So they’ve been fairly lucky, but adding a #1 starter will certainly help them be more competitive.

I would add Braun to the list of guys who are performing as expected—I don’t think anyone expected him to adjust to a new position and hit like he did last year. His adjusted OPS is only 20 points below his insanely good rookie year, and he’s still on pace to hit 40 homers and drive in 100 runs. Considering how poor the guys hitting in front of him have been, I’d say he’s having a pretty good year.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 8, 2008 12:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just wait until Sheets gets his annual injury, haha

I want it to be known that I hate the Cubs and absolutely do not want them to win anything this year. However, for some reason, the Brewers’ recent push pisses me off. It’s like they’re a bunch of johnny-come-latelies or something. I can’t explain it.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2008 12:42 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How do you think the Cubs and Brewers fans feel?

We’ve got a group of injured, talentless hacks playing way over their heads for the first 3 months of the season while they’ve either invested a lot of money or a lot of draft picks to create the teams they have.

We scrapped the bargain bin, checked the scrap pile and took a bunch of AAAA players and despite playing under .500 for a while now, we’re still only 3.5 back.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 7, 2008 1:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

under .500 since when?

We’ve been pretty close to .500 for a while (13-13 since AW got hurt on 7 June) and 15 of those games were without albert. You can pick selective endpoints to say we’re “playing under .500”; it’s possible to pick starting days in the last month that we were as much as 3 under, but we always bounce back.

The most important thing is AW coming back. We’d probably be in first right now if he hadn’t gotten hurt, and if he can come back 100% after the break, this acquisition won’t change the equation that much- if anything, it may mean the end for the Cubs, not for us. The brewers sweeping the Cubs the last 3 games of the season, pushing us into the WC spot (or even the NLC title) would be the most amazing ending to a pennant race ever ;) I guess it would be better if it was at wrigley, but only just barely.

I’m afraid Mark Mulder will do more to hurt our post-season aspirations than CC at this point.

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 7, 2008 2:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am very very afraid of Mark Mulder

I realize that Management want to see what he has before his option. But this guy needs more time.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2008 10:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how long?

we need to figure out if this guy can play or not, might as well get it over with. he’s been rehabbing for quite some time

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 5:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Until he is ready

I honestly don’t believe he’ll be ready this year. Rushing him back hasn’t worked in the past. I understand this doesn’t fit into the cardinals schedule. But it is what it is. Mulder hasn’t shown the ability to get anyone out above AA this year. If he turns into a 5th starter this year I’ll be pleasently surprised.

But right now I feel he doesn’t belong on the Major League Roster. Either as a relief pitcher (because he hasn’t been a relieft pitcher ever.) Or a starter. (When was the last time he went 6 efficient innings?)

I’d love to be proven wrong.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2008 5:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

unfortunately

our hand was forced in this situation by injuries.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 5:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep.."talentless hacks playing over their heads"

..this is exactly why most Cub fans aren’t at all concerned about the Cards..

The journey is the reward!

by wicubfan on Jul 7, 2008 1:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yet they keep posting comments in VEB...

so unconcerned, cub fans can’t wait to see what we think.

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 1:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They should be

Our talentless hacks have split the season series with you guys so far

May I remind you, wicubfan, that pride comes before the fall

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2008 2:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let me be clear..

I admire the things your club has accomplished given that you are essentially a one man band.

As far as splitting with the Cubs so far..the Cubs are 20-26 overall on the road. Given that record, your split at home with the Cubs isn’t that impressive.

The journey is the reward!

by wicubfan on Jul 7, 2008 2:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

was that a shot at the cardinals?

or confirmation that the cubs aren’t that good?

Because you’re basically saying going .500 againt the cubs sucks.

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Cubs are not very good on the road..

they will have to be better as they have only 9 home games in September.

I will be shocked if the Cards can split at Wrigley.

The journey is the reward!

by wicubfan on Jul 8, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In a year where home teams rule

We’ve been one of the worst at defending our home turf

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Middle of the pack

for the NL with our home record. Hardly one of the worst.

On another note, just found this Pennant Race visual link through baseball-reference. Sorta like a horse race.

by ubeddie on Jul 7, 2008 9:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe I should have said

difference between home record and road record. We are 5 games over in both right now, or have even records in each. The only teams in the NL with better records on the road than at home are the Phillies and Giants.

Also, since May 5 we are only 12-14 at home.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2008 10:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how are we talentless

when we have Ankiel (one of the best center fielders, only going to get better there since he’s new at it), Molina (one of the best catchers in the majors), the best player in MLB (Pujols), a ton of pitchers who follow the game plan usually, arguably the best defense in the NL, lots of guys who can hit home runs, etc etc etc

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 5:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Or Kerry Wood's annual injury...

Why are all Cubs fans so obsessed with Fukudome? He should not be an all-star. He’s not having a great year.

by Jumsy on Jul 7, 2008 10:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

it’s hillarious how popular Fukudome is. and he’s not that great. and how about those cubs fans who wear the Chinese field worker hat, when he’s Japanese? for all you know, he hates the fans

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 7, 2008 5:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

I can’t understand their fascination with him either honestly. He’s better than Skip, but costs a whole lot more, is 31, and doesn’t seem to hit for a lot of power for a corner outfielder. He’s higher OBPing Juan Encarnacion from what I can see.

Ankiel is having a better year than he is and so are a list of other NL outfielders that won’t be starting the All-Star game, including: Corey Hart, Carlos Lee, Adam Dunn, and Matt Holliday.

Honestly, I think Matt Kemp is having as good a year as Fukudome and playing in a pitchers park while being maligned as an underachiever in the LA media. He’s also only 23, costs less, and probably hasn’t hit his peak yet either. Fukudomania is completely overblown…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 8, 2008 1:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Speaking of Kemp

seems some rumors surfaced that had the Dodgers sending Kemp to Pittsburgh for Jack Wilson, but apparantly the Pirates weren’t interested because they consider Wilson affordable and don’t have a replacement.

by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2008 1:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i thought

this was a cardinals site

by bigmcq16 on Jul 7, 2008 1:34 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know

it feels like we got caught in a family spat. Either ACB is the worst Brewers fan ever or he’s a Cubs fan…I’m having trouble figuring out which.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 7, 2008 1:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thanks ol' pete

more obvious words could never be spoken….but it had to be said

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 7, 2008 8:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Unfortunately

The team ahead of us and the team tied with us are in the same division. If we played in the NL West we’d essentially be a postseason lock right now. Except for the whole “having to play the Giants 18 times” thing lol

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
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by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2008 2:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Like has been mentioned.....

The Brewers need at least 2 good bullpen arms before they are legit.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 7, 2008 8:55 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Really?

Because they have the same record as us right now without “2 good bullpen arms”. Every team has a deficiency. That doesn’t automatically make them illegitimate.

by azruavatar on Jul 7, 2008 9:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Uh.....

We need the league in blown saves, I’m pretty sure. While on paper our bullpen is solid, we haven’t gotten consistent results yet either.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 7, 2008 10:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so the Cardinals aren't legit either

The only team that really seems to stand out in the NL, to me, is the Cubs. I see several “legit” teams—I’m just not sure where you are headed with them needing 2 bullpen arms. A team has never made the playoffs with a shady bullpen?

by azruavatar on Jul 7, 2008 11:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Made the playoffs?

Yea. Made much noise in the playoffs? Probably not.

Obviously their management agrees with me, as everything I’ve read says they’ll go out and get at least ONE bullpen arm in the coming weeks.

I just think this’ll end up backfiring. What if they don’t even make the playoffs? How stupid will this move look then?

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 7, 2008 11:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not stupid

You have to make decisions based on the information you have on hand at the time. Right now, the Brewers are hot and a whopping 3.5 games out of first place. They’ve decided to make a push and go all in this year. Cool. Good for them. If they don’t make the playoffs, that will definitely suck for them, but I don’t know that you can legitimately call the move stupid. So what if CC puts up a 5ish ERA or if Braun goes down injured, or if JJ Hardy comes back to earth (dude’s unconscious right now he’s so good)—are you saying the move to acquire CC would look stupid because the GM didn’t foresee this and hold on to his prize prospect (who is blocked by Braun and Fielder, BTW)? Shit happens. Doesn’t mean you are stupid if you don’t foresee it and plan for it. It means you gambled and lost.

by Ray Lankford on Jul 7, 2008 12:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If it were a larger market team.....

I’d say fine. If it were a team with more success in recent years, I’d say fine. But when you are a small market team, with limited success, competing with STL, Houston, and Chicago annually, I think the smart move would have been to build a sustainable base. Like has been mentioned, they are facing having no CC, no Sheets, and no Fielder all within the next season or two.

Sure they have some other decent pitchers, but for the most part, their staff and bullpen simply aren’t going to be good enough going forward. And I’m not sure picking up CC even gets them into the playoffs.

Guess we’ll see.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 7, 2008 12:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They have built a sustainable base

that is why they are prepared to take a run right now.

If all you do is wait for your prospects to develop, you’re always waiting. Most of the time, they are so spread out through the organization they don’t all just show up at the same time like a great recruiting class in college or high school. At this point, their young guys are still relatively cost controlled and they are in the race. This is the moment they’ve been building for.

And as a small market team, they aren’t going to be able to keep it together much longer. You said it right in your post. They look to lose Sheets AND Fielder in the next year or two. Are they going to magically replace them next year from their farm sysytem? It took Fielder like 4 years before they got to this stage and thats with the help of Braun (who’s in his 2nd year). If they lose Fielder, they’re back to step one.

And who’s gonna replace Ben Sheets in the rotation?

This is the year they HAD to do this.

by Tackle Box on Jul 7, 2008 1:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fielder

is under control for three more years. Cheap pitchers for next year include Gallardo and Parra. There are more prospects in the minors who are now, or expected to be soon, major league capable than there are roster spots. They had six high picks this year and if they don’t sign Sheets or CC, they will have at least five next year.

Could the loss of LaPorta mean that they don’t have a high impact bat to add or replace Fielder’s in the next 2-3 years? Yes, but there is also a good chance that Gamel or others will fill that spot.

by ol Pete on