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Game 88 Open Thread: July 4 2008

Chicago @ St. Louis


Zambrano Looper
8-3, 3.13 9-5, 4.26

happy 4th everybody. it’s a holiday weekend, the cards are playing the cubs, and the teams are fighting each other for first place; jim edmonds is back in town (and welcome back to ya, jed). it doesn’t get much better than this.

i'll be at a barbecue tonight and away from the computer, so overflow threads will be pre-programmed. i don't know whether to expect heavy traffic because it's the cubs, or light traffic because it's the 4th of july. erring on the side of caution, i'm gonna pre-program two overflows --- one will open an hour after game time, and the second will open an hour after that.

historically, card-cub game threads have not brought out the best in the VEB community. most people keep the rivarly in perspective and are able to enjoy the sparring without being obnoxious about it. but there always seem to be a few dicks who show off their most unpleasant, vulgar, and unintelligent characteristics when the cards play the cubs --- indeed, they think it’s cool to act that way when the cards play the cubs. don’t be one of those dicks. have all the fun you want in the game thread; just don’t drive people off my site with repugnant behavior. and if you observe someone else behaving that way, flag the post or write me an e-mail.

i exchanged views this morning with al yellon, my friend over at Bleed Cubbie Blue. his answers to my questions are here; head over there to see my answers to his questions. if you do drop by BCB during the weekend to exchange views w/ the northsiders, remember that you are representing our community ---- be good-humored, fight fair, and refrain from trolling. thanks ev’yone.

1) Jim Edmonds appeared to be toast when he came to the Cubs; he even got called out by Lou Piniella for his lax production after his first week or so in Chicago. How'd he turn it around?
That's a mystery to me, too, but I'm certainly not complaining. In 36 games as a Cub Edmonds is now hitting .294/.391/.587, better than his career numbers, with 8 HR and 24 RBI. He's played a competent CF --- it's clear that he doesn't have the range he used to, but he catches most everything he can get to --- and has contributed to many wins, most notably with his game-tying, last-of-the-9th HR against the Braves on June 12, a game the Cubs won in the 11th on a walkoff HBP. Even some Cubs fans who hated the idea of "that hated Cardinal" in a Cubs uniform are coming around.

To answer your question more directly, Edmonds had an injury in spring training that limited him to six ST at-bats. Clearly, it hadn't totally healed during his time in San Diego and they gave up on him. He's healthy now, and the Cubs have a productive CF platoon (Edmonds and Reed Johnson) at a cost to them of about $1.6 million for the entire season ($1.3M for Johnson, and the minimum for Edmonds, as the Padres are on the hook for the rest of his contract).

2) After half a season of watching Fukudome, do you think the contract he signed is a) a bargain, b) overpriced, or c) fair ?
The contract is fair. Fukudome has been exactly as advertised -- an on-base machine (.395 OBA) who has mid-range power and plays an excellent RF. His best value to the Cubs has been his patience at the plate -- this has rubbed off on his teammates, as they are on pace to break the club record for walks in a season. He is the Cubs' first Japanese-born player and Japanese players are noted for their disciplined approach to the game, something that has been missing from Cub teams for many years. For that alone, he's worth it.

3) What is the secret of Ryan Dempster's success this year? Are you worried he will wake up one day and turn back into the old Ryan Dempster?
Cub fans always worry about just about everything. But Dempster, apart from one disastrous start vs. the White Sox, has been consistent all year. The "secret," which really isn't one, is that Dempster dropped about 30 pounds and spent the winter doing intense workouts, because he realized that returning to starting pitching would require him to get into better shape. Part of his routine was running up and down Camelback Mountain in the Phoenix area before spring training, something that anyone who's hiked those trails would tell you is a tough task. It has paid off. Dempster is also a smart player who understands what it takes to succeed. He'll make the All-Star team and it'll be well-deserved.

4) Matt Murton, Felix Pie, Ronny Cedeno, Eric Patterson, Rich Hill . . . . a lot of highly touted Cub prospects are going stale, rather than establishing themselves as regulars. Does that trend worry you, and what do you think is the reason for it?
Technically, Murton isn't a Cub prospect -- he was acquired from the Red Sox in the Nomar Garciaparra trade. "Highly-touted" is a relative term, too; of the ones you mention, only Pie and Hill had that tag on them, and Hill only in the later stages of his minor league career. Since producing several good-to-very-good position players and pitchers in the 1980's (Shawon Dunston, Mark Grace, Joe Girardi, Greg Maddux among others), the farm system has become fallow in recent years. This I would attribute to bad management and bad drafting more than any other factors. In the last few years under Oneri Fleita and scouting director Tim Wilken, the system has begun to rebuild, and I hope that bears fruit in years to come. Also, keep in mind that although the players you name have had less success than hoped for, the Cub farm system has produced, in the last ten years, Kerry Wood, Carlos Zambrano, Michael Wuertz, Sean Marshall, Sean Gallagher and Carlos Marmol.

5) Which pursuer do Cub fans fear more --- the Cardinals or the Brewers?
Personally, I fear the Brewers more --- and don't take that as an insult, Cardinals fans. I still can't figure out how your team is doing it, and I look forward to Larry's answers to my questions on that topic. Milwaukee has a great offense --- their weakness, as was apparent in their unbelievable meltdown loss to Arizona yesterday, is their bullpen. This weekend series will go a long way toward setting the tone for the rest of the season, just as the September 2003 series in Wrigley Field did for the Cubs that year, and the July 2004 series, also at Wrigley, did for the Cardinals in that season. Let the games begin!

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hats off to larry

for coming up with such quality questions in these little exchange interviews with other blogs.

by PolancoMcEwing on Jul 4, 2008 6:51 PM EDT   0 recs

+1

Alan Trammell: Assistant (to the) Manager

by northsider on Jul 4, 2008 11:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

BCB

You’d think they would realize that Aaron Miles is not our usual starting shortstop. But then, I guess that would require paying attention…

by Callaway Kid on Jul 4, 2008 6:52 PM EDT   0 recs

Fukudome's splits.

HOME: .373 / .476 / .563
AWAY: .213 / .319 / .284

Wow.

Boomer.

by glamboomer on Jul 4, 2008 6:54 PM EDT   0 recs

indeed.

and more importantly, first 99 MLB PA’s:
.346/.465/.506 (.971)
(1.188 home, .690 rd)

The 254 PA’s since then:
.269/.368/.384 (.752)
(.968 home, .575 rd)

Enjoy the next 3.5 fukudome years, CHC.

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 4, 2008 7:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

But since the Cubs (and Red Sox) play 120 home games a year

they should be fine with Fukudome’s production :)

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Jul 4, 2008 7:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i look forward

to a good series between both teams- should be hard fought. its independence day and it doesn’t get too much more exciting than cubs cardinals. go cards!

by 916baller on Jul 4, 2008 6:57 PM EDT   0 recs

I had fan post

and then reading Larry’s “Don’t be a dick” post, I deleted it. It basically dealt with the 4th, and how we should all eat charred meat, blow shit up, and use this series to determine if we really hate the Cubs, or just hate Cubs fans.

I actually like the players on the Cubs. I just think Cub fans are midwestern Red Sox fans, and a lot of them are Bears fans (Packer fan myself), and that the reason fuel is more expensive in IL is because they have to gas up the bandwagon.

But damn – let’s blow some shit up tonight. Z is coming off the DL…let’s welcome him back with grit, and a few smokin line drives to CF to show Jimmy Ballgame that his wheels aren’t what they used to be.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jul 4, 2008 7:06 PM EDT   0 recs

ahahah

good comparison.

I didn’t hate the cubs until I moved to STL and had to deal with their fans directly. Most cards fans that don’t live around here just don’t get the hate and it’s fashionable to play down the rivalry although it’s geographically based anyway.

Kind of like the Yankees being my favorite AL team, since I’m not from NY I never really hated the Red Sox until recently their fans came out of the wood work (B is for bandwagon) and yeah they’re basically east coast Cubs fans with inferiority complexes from the past 100 years.

I have to say the most worthless fans in the history of the world are Phillie fans.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 4, 2008 7:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Phillie fans have value

25 years after post-doc’ing for a particularly cretinous full professor whom I will not name, I still occasionally say to myself, “so what would ol’ Charlie do in this situation?” And I then make sure to do the opposite.

Phillie fans serve a similar function in life. Bad examples and cautionary tales have their uses.

by StanTheManFan on Jul 4, 2008 7:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i just wanna say

i hate carlos zambrano.

GO CARDS!

by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 4, 2008 7:26 PM EDT   0 recs

I was pumped last year

when he was eluding to the fact he was going to pitch for the cards. Hate goes out the window if they improve my team, even for Barry Bonds who I hate more than any professional athlete (well top 3, right around Kevin Youkilis and Geovany Soto)

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 4, 2008 7:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

dont be a dick

bernies article in the post really sums up what lboros is saying not to do; in the article he argues against cheering for jimmy because he’s a cubbie now and therefore “the enemy”. in baseball, bernie, the term is opponent. when i go to cubs cards games and see people fighting and being dicks (the term is pretty apt, i must say), i always cringe because c’mon people, it’s baseball. theres gotta be a line between having a rival and hating something – and in sports it seems like the line is being crossed more and more. lets try to be the “best fans in baseball” and not cross that line.

Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona.

by willess on Jul 4, 2008 7:39 PM EDT   0 recs

fighting is stupid

and I haven’t read the PD yet, but I’ll be damned if I cheer for the guy. I’ll give him a respectful nod the first time he is introduced, then after that it’s on. I understand his perspective- he still felt he had something to give, and wasn’t ready to retire. But he chose to come back to the NLC to play for our rivals and I’m not going to give him a standing O unless he K’s.

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm sorry but

St. Louis clearly doesn’t deserve the self proclaimed best fans in baseball…..come football season everybody is up their fantasy football teams ass and it’s like pulling teeth to get a baseball game on tv at the sports bars.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 4, 2008 7:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

it's that way everywhere though

in ‘06 I had a hard time getting places to put the NLCS on. In fact, out here it’s hard to get baseball even early on because it’s all about basketball, as well.

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 4, 2008 7:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

wow I'd have a falldown fist fight if some bartender was being a prick

and turning on BASKETBALL of all things over the cards. The only people that care about basketball are people hopping into Doc Brown’s Delorean and headed back to 1998.

That’s why I like BWW, they have a written Policy were it goes Home team sports always first and 99% of the time they immediately turn it to another baseball game unlike most bars.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 4, 2008 7:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

bernies article

was a poorly constructed and ill conceived attack on someone who’s simply doing his job. true, he’s a cub, true, the cards and cubs are locked in an exciting playoff chase. but those things don’t change the fact that the game being played is just that—a game. i’m sure everyone here can recount a number of memories featuring number 15, and to crucify him for doing what he needed to do to continue to do what he loves is absurd. and its not even that he says don’t cheer for him, its that fact that he ties in the fourth, where the country is supposed to unite yet he argues for complete separation on team lines. this is not red states vs. blue states, this is not the confederacy vs. the union, it’s baseball – and for a game that supposedly is America’s sport, it seems pretty paradoxical that on this particular day it should divide us rather than unite us.

Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona.

by willess on Jul 4, 2008 7:48 PM EDT   0 recs

between your post and your signature

i’m experiencing significant cognitive dissonance.

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 4, 2008 7:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

its a game, just a very important one

just as the grand canyon is a hole, its just a very important one.

Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona.

by willess on Jul 4, 2008 7:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Has Ron Mahay been mentioned here?

http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=118158… with the trouble from lefties outta the pen why not..anyone know his contract.

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Jul 4, 2008 7:51 PM EDT   0 recs

two year deal with the royals

as per rosenthal until like next year or something. plus he’s old.

Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona.

by willess on Jul 4, 2008 7:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

ya wasnt sure the deal

but he’s having a good season

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Jul 4, 2008 7:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Believe he is affordable

Last I read KC wasn’t necessarily going to deal him.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 4, 2008 7:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

he'll be a type A free agent

so they won’t deal him for cheap, that is for sure.

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 4, 2008 7:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

kill em with kindness

it works better than any F Bombs & yo momma jokes you could ever drop on them

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jul 4, 2008 7:56 PM EDT   0 recs

yo mamma's so old

she was conceived following a drunken celebration of the cubbie’s last world series victory

Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona.

by willess on Jul 4, 2008 7:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yo mamma's so old

she was conceived during a drunken celebration of the cubbie’s last world series victory

Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona.

by willess on Jul 4, 2008 7:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

where's the entertainment value in that?

and you’re mamma’s so old she still uses yo mamma jokes.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 4, 2008 7:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

you're = your :(

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 4, 2008 8:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

OT - Dave Rozema bobble-kick dolls

Being given away. In honor of his attempted karate kick during the 1982 brawl between the Tigers and Twins.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 4, 2008 7:57 PM EDT   0 recs

• Missed a team bus when he overslept after judging a wet T-shirt contest.

Awesome.

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 4, 2008 8:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

bad loop?

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Jul 4, 2008 7:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

all day at Patty O's, and they let you take A beer into the stadium.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 4, 2008 8:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

btw, I'm playing a drinking game

everytime someone says Jim Edmonds I drka;a;kln

I drunkard when JEd

i…lovesh you guysh….no no serioushly

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 4, 2008 8:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i remember drinking beer whlie watching BP last year

so at least a couple hours.

What’s going on?

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 4, 2008 8:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I can't stand the stupid 7th inning rule....

Only morons get behind sterring wheels after too much but HELL, I’d like to be able to drink till the final out. ..so I might as well start early and have my lady friend hide some in her purse after the 7th!

mattnj

by mattnj on Jul 4, 2008 8:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

especially with the cards bullpen

come 7th Inning if I’m not drunk when Flores comes in….

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 4, 2008 8:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well you can save some beer money

for a while, since he’s on the D.L.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 4, 2008 8:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

this is no time for saving beer money

not when Flores’ replacement is Mark frigging Mulder….

by nota bene on Jul 4, 2008 8:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

They sell beer past the final out

at the bar in the casino queen party proch. they also sell beers besided Busch/Bud/Bud Light.

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on Jul 5, 2008 8:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

that was a cool song at the end of the pregame

did any one recognize it or the band?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jul 4, 2008 8:16 PM EDT   0 recs

god I hate japanese hitters

They remind me of women softball players with that stupid running swing.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 4, 2008 8:18 PM EDT   0 recs

whoa dude?

That is politically incorrect! You deserve a Samurai sword!

mattnj

by mattnj on Jul 4, 2008 8:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

....gonna be a long night.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 4, 2008 8:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What Shannon does to English is infinitely worse in Japanese pronunciation. ..Murder on Fukudome's name

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Jul 4, 2008 8:20 PM EDT   0 recs

finally

Albert Pujols has been knocked out of the major league lead in last name induced giggles…..

by nota bene on Jul 4, 2008 8:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

insert explitives here

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jul 4, 2008 8:20 PM EDT   0 recs

Fuku HR

not an auspicious beginning to the series….

by nota bene on Jul 4, 2008 8:20 PM EDT   0 recs

Is this really a road game for cubs

We let too many of their fans in here.

by TheBirds on Jul 4, 2008 8:21 PM EDT   0 recs

22 first inning pitches.

Gotta do better than that, Bloop.

by fuegophil on Jul 4, 2008 8:24 PM EDT   0 recs

He's alright

9 of ‘em were to Fukudome.

by Tackle Box on Jul 4, 2008 8:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

and 7 to Lee

didn’t realize he threw that many to Lee.

by Tackle Box on Jul 4, 2008 8:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

those chears for the flubs are way to freaking loud

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jul 4, 2008 8:27 PM EDT   0 recs

i'm sorry to hear that

FSN Midwest must be using their mics because every thing that teams does is met with very loud cheers.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jul 4, 2008 8:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

wish someone other than our guys could have a

bad rehab start

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Jul 4, 2008 8:28 PM EDT   0 recs

Zambrano just off the DL, think maybe you'd make him toss a few pitches rather than first and second ball hacking.

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Jul 4, 2008 8:29 PM EDT   0 recs

Doesn't surprise me

typical Zambrano pounding the zone. Not much you can do but try to put it in play right now.

by Tackle Box on Jul 4, 2008 8:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Loop

is going to have to be nails tonight, cause judging by that inning Zambrano is going to be sharp, and probably will go deep into the game….

by nota bene on Jul 4, 2008 8:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

nice o for edmonds

now strike his ass out

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jul 4, 2008 8:32 PM EDT   0 recs

only in stl

can a guy demand a trade come back and get an O

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Jul 4, 2008 8:32 PM EDT   0 recs

alright, you got your standing O, now strike out & set down

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jul 4, 2008 8:32 PM EDT   0 recs

They should boo his ass tomorrow.

I think that would be appropriate.

by Tackle Box on Jul 4, 2008 8:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I cheered for the K

Glorious.

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 4, 2008 8:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs