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Around SBN: FSU To Big 12 'Inevitable,' According To Report

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i thought bobby cox did carpenter a huge favor by ordering bunts with nobody out in both of the first two innings. he actually flashed the sign 3 times in the first 8 batters ---- escobar in the 1st inning, johnson and miller in the 2d --- and while one of the bunts went for a base hit, on the whole i think they helped carpenter immensely, put easy outs on the board when the pitcher was laboring and gave him a chance to collect himself. the 1st-inning sacrifice came before carp had fully reacquainted himself with the strike zone; he missed badly on 5 of his first 6 pitches. the bunt itself came on a pitch nowhere near the strike zone --- should have been ball 2 to escobar. the corky miller bunt in the 2nd inning came after three consecutive singles (one of them on johnson’s bunt). at that early point in the game carpenter had faced 7 men and allowed 4 to reach; if you want to exclude the 2 bunters, he had faced 5 men and allowed 3 to reach. he wasn’t throwing strikes, wasn’t throwing the ball past anybody, hadn’t established any rhythm at all . . . . and cox was giving him outs for free? whatever; he’s the hall of fame manager, not me.

another gift from the braves: right after miller's bunt, jar jurrjens got the swing-away sign on a 2-0 pitch from carpenter with men at 2nd and 3rd and 1 out. shouldn't the pitcher be taking there? jurrjens swung at a borderline fastball which might have been ball 3 and tapped it to albert.

well, let’s sift through some good news. carp’s velocity looked fine ---- 90 to 93 on his primary fastball --- and he maintained it throughout the 67-pitch outing. he didn’t lose any zip after reaching 15 or 20 pitches in a given inning, nor when throwing out of the stretch. all good signs. he was reasonably economical w/ his pitches --- thanks to a 1-2-3 inning in the 4th, he recorded 12 outs on 67 pitches (2 of the outs were bunts, though, and another 2 were obtained against the opposing the pitcher). he didn’t give up an extra-base hit, and most of the outs were fairly routine; he wasn’t just getting lucky or relying on his defense to bail him out (although kennedy made an extremely nice play up the middle to end the 4th, retiring the last man carpenter would face).

most encouraging of all, in my opinion, is that he deployed all of his pitches --- fastball, cutter, curve, change, even a slider or two. and he wasn’t throwing any of them up there just for show; they were all go-to pitches. carp got out of the bases-loaded, two-out jam in the 2nd by fooling gregor blanco with a changeup ---- only the second one he’d thrown all night, and one of only 6 he would throw in the game. he escaped the same jam in the 3rd by getting jeff fancouer to lunge at a perfectly placed slider --- only the second time he’d thown that pitch during the evening. the fact that carp had the confidence and ability to execute those pitches in tight situations is a bright ray of hope. we’re not getting some vanilla facsimilie of our old ace; we’re getting the whole pitcher.

but you might also interpret it (less charitably) this way: carp resorted to trickery with little-used pitches in those tight situations because he couldn’t overpower batters with his primary stuff, as of yore. his two main weapons, fastball and curve, were both misfiring last night. he threw 33 fastballs but only hit the strike zone 18 times, and a lot of the misses were not close; at times he was wide of molina’s target by two feet. he missed up, he missed in the dirt . . . . when he did get the fastball into the zone, it tended to catch too much of the plate. with none out and one on in the 3rd, he threw a 3-1 fastball belt high and not quite far enough inside to kotchman; casey turned on it and lifted it high and deep to right field, but he just got under and it faded short of the track. lucky break. i don’t recall seeing carp hit the corner with a fastball until francouer’s bases-loaded at-bat in the 3rd inning ---- a key pitch, because it got him ahead 1-2 and set up the slider which squelched the threat. the braves didn’t swing and miss at a fastball all night, and rarely even fouled one off ---- they swung at the pitch 11 times and put it into play 8 times, 3 times for base hits. those are ugly ratios; they will have to come down.

his curveball was just as shaky: he only hit the strike zone with it 3 times in 8 tries. the braves swung at all 3 of the curves that passed through the zone --- missed one, hit a flyball out on another, hit the 3rd for a single. the pitch that was in the best shape last night was the cut fastball. carp threw it selectively --- francouer and escobar each got a steady diet of them, and kotchman saw the pitch twice in his first at-bat. carpenter threw 9 of 15 cutters for strikes and induced weak swings --- the braves swung and missed at 2, fouled another 2 off, and only put one into play, a two-hopper to albert.

negative indicators: he threw first-pitch strikes to only 6 of the 20 batters he faced, and allowed the leadoff man to reach in three of the four innings. (as a consequence of the latter, 46 of his first 56 pitches last night came out of the stretch.) positive indicators: carp induced 6 misses in 26 swings, which is pretty good, and he didn’t allow an extra-base hit. of the 12 balls put into play against him (excluding the bunts), half were groundballs and only 2 were line drives. after a 16-month layoff, it was about as good an outing as anyone could have hoped for ---- still plenty to work on, but the foundation is there. if nothing else, it felt good just to see the guy out there again. la russa talks about the psychological lift caused by carpenter’s presence, and i don’t dismiss that; i think it’s meaningful. it’s not anything decisive --- not enough to turn mediocre ballplayers into good ones --- but a team like the cardinals needs every little edge it can get in a race that’s likely to be tight right down to the wire.

i was kind of sorry (and i may be the only one who felt that way) that izzy didn’t a get chance to come in last night for the save. would have been ideal circumstances --- 3-run lead, weak opponent. izzy hasn’t saved a game that carpenter started for almost 2 years --- it last happened on august 20, 2006. if you want a one-note explanation for why it has been a rocky 2 years, that’s as a good as any.

today’s the trade deadline; no major moves likely, but it does seem as if they can add a left-handed reliever if they want one. ohman, mahay, rhodes, guardado, and others are available, to say nothing of (the likely too expensive) sherrill and possibly brian fuentes. another guy who could help the team and prob’y be acquired without losing anybody important is rich aurilia. seems like i toss his name out there every year, but he is a player of spiezio-like utility ---- plays multiple positions, can take a professional at-bat, won’t flinch under pressure. (bet you didn’t know his postseason home-run rate, 1 per 16 at-bats, is nearly as good as albert pujols’, 1 per 15 . . . . ) yeah he’s almost 37, but aurilia can still hit, particularly against left-handers, where the cardinals need the most help. he’d give the cards a decent option to play 3d so glaus can stay fresh, and against a tough left-hander (e.g., sabathia or ted lilly) he might even be pressed into service as a 2bman; he hasn’t started at second or short this year, but he made 18 starts at those positions last season and was (per john dewan) acceptable with the glove. his at-bats would largely come at brendan ryan’s expense, but i can live with that; ryan has a big-league glove but still not a big-league bat, and the cards can use one of the latter down the stretch. aurilia may not be as sexy as jason bay or matt holliday, but he’s a realistic target --- ie, affordable within the cards’ budget of expendable minor-league talent. i’d take him.

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Bring back Ray King

I keed, I keed.

Great point about the dry spell for Izzy closing out a start by Carp. It really has been a while since the Birds have had their go-to guys in place and on their respective game. Seeing Carp on the bump last night was almost like seeing a ghost. A ghost that gives you wonderful presents like money and bacon.

"Well, folks, this game began as a tiny worm and is blossoming into a large cobra." - Mike "The Moon Man" Shannon

by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jul 31, 2008 9:20 AM EDT reply actions  

Oh man

I’d love to be haunted by a bacon-bearing ethereal being.

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

mmm... bacon, my greasy lover....

When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?

by RosevilleRedbird on Jul 31, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Making some

Bacon, Eggs, Biscuits and Gravy right now. Have the day off

by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

bippity boppity bacon

"Textbooks are Soviet propaganda" - Rev. Jerry Falwell

by elirock83 on Jul 31, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nuthin's better than wakin' to bacon

http://www.mathlete.com/portfolio/wakeNbacon.php

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jul 31, 2008 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

King at Round Rock

I get to see Ray at Round Rock now. He has lost some stuff, but still is a big competitor. He still pitches with passion.

by Remember Kenny B on Jul 31, 2008 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

i thought he had lost quite a bit of weight

How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor

by themanthemyth on Jul 31, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

i don't know about that

milb.com has him listed at 250 which I think is what he was listed at when he was a cardinal. I’m not saying he’s the same size as he was when he was a cardinal, what I’m saying is he was way heavier than 250, and these things are never accurate. I believe both Prince Fielder and CC are listed under 300, and I have a hard time believing that.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

He has lost about 40 pounds, I'd guess

Looks a lot better than two years ago. Express website lists him at 230…may actually be accurate by the look of him. I’m surprised Houston hasn’t called him up as he’s been striking out a batter an inning in AAA.

by random on Jul 31, 2008 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

A couple months ago or so he was on ESPN and he looked good and I mean good and not just an improvement over his past. He talked about how his weight was hurting his pitch delivery so he got serious about trimming down.

by ol Pete on Jul 31, 2008 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

my friends called him 'Burger King'

“have it your way” you want a single? double? home run? “have it your way!” The King always served them up

"I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order. Like they should be."

by BigMOman on Jul 31, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

a krispy kreme donuts somewhere near where i used to live

my buddies and i used to tell people they just didn’t have enough customers anymore once ray king left the cardinals.

by mattybobo on Jul 31, 2008 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Then Ray's going to have trouble keeping the weight off

The Express play just down the road from the Lone Star Bakery…home of the famous Round Rock Donuts. For his sake I hope for an early call up or long road trips.

by random on Jul 31, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Izzy

Yeah, both of the last two nights I thought TLR might go ahead and bring Izzy in anyway, just to get him some work in lower-pressure situations.

by birdjam on Jul 31, 2008 9:23 AM EDT reply actions  

His velocity and all his pitchers were there

and that’s what I wanted to see. I think if he’d had a few more minor league starts his pitchers would have been sharper. We can look for that in his next start.

by sdrone on Jul 31, 2008 9:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Velocity

I have to assume he still has a MPH or two to pick up…if I recall correctly, he could dial it up into the 94-95 range when he needed to in previous years. I didn’t see anything in that neighbhorhood last night.

All in all, I thought it lacked any kind of polish, but it was positive. His movement certainly isn’t gone, and his velocity is almost there—can’t ask for much more than that in a guy’s third game back from TJ surgery.

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right, I agree

I just didn’t want to see him throwing an 87 mph fastball and start thinking “oh crap”

by sdrone on Jul 31, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

93

is a neighbor of 94-95

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2008 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Marginal value of 93 instead of 94 is much higher than say 88 to 89

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jul 31, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Carp pitch-by-pitch

With the caveat that I was relying on Fox’s gun, I was scoring the game and paid particular attention to Carp’s velocity. Here is what I got (BTW, I scored any ball that was swung at or hit, whether fair or foul, a strike, so “strike” doesn’t necessarily mean the location was great. I missed the velocity on a couple of pitches, denoted with “(?)”):

1st:
90, 90, 91strike, 91, 91, 87, (?)strike, 88, 92strike, 87strike, 73dirt, 92strike, 72, 83strike, 83strike

2nd:
92strike, 91strike, 90, 86strike, 86, 93strike, 91, 86strike, 88, 93, 91strike, 87strike, 75dirt, 93, (?)strike

3rd:
88strike, 93, 88strike, 74strike, 93, 91, 92strike, 92, 91strike, 73, (?)strike, 87strike, 88, 88strike, 75, 93strike, 73, 83, 84strike, 92, 90strike, 84, 88, 88strike, 93strike, 87strike

4th:
91strike, 72strike, 86, 87strikeout, 91, 91strike, 92strike, 86strikeout, 92, 85, 92strike

by birdjam on Jul 31, 2008 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Last night

was a minor league rehab start. Other than Kotchman, Francouer, Infante, and Jurrjens, that was a AAA lineup for the Braves. If Carp had faced a better team(Cubs, Brewers, Philllies), I think he would’ve been hammered.

If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.

by cardsrul on Jul 31, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

hehe

I like how you made four exceptions, then still stated “it was a AAA lineup”. Wouldn’t that make it 44% Major league? And if you use that standard, when we the last time the cardinals rolled out a lineup that was more than 67% major league?

"I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order. Like they should be."

by BigMOman on Jul 31, 2008 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Semantics...

If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.

by cardsrul on Jul 31, 2008 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good call on Aurillia

he is exactly the kind of multi positional player that TLR has loved having going back to his Oakland days…who would replace on the roster? Ryan? I kind of like having Joe Mather around these days.

by tbell61 on Jul 31, 2008 9:42 AM EDT reply actions  

I also like Aurilia

he’s versatile, he can hit and it’s not too much of a stretch to think that he might be our best SS option down the stretch. I also think we should try to get Ohman from the Braves. He’s solid vs. lefties and a free agent at the end of the year so he’ll hardly cost a lot in terms of prospects.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2008 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, please, on Ohman

He would an excellent addition to the ‘pen, ensuring that Flores doesn’t sniff a big league mound in a meaningful game again this season.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Roster Spot

Therein lies the rub with an Aurillia type of player. I believe he is an upgrade over Ryan/Izuris, but who do you dump? Or, to put it another way, who would TLR relegate or DFA?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

you could send Ryan to Memphis

they wouldn’t dfa Kennedy, which would be the better option but Ryan still has options.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2008 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree...

Ryan would simply be sent down which is not a big deal. I don’t know how anyone could really get worked up over that move at all…....

Back to Aurilia.. He is pretty solid with the bat and he would be our best offensive option.. Aurilia and Miles starting together would be the best offensive options but I don’t know how well those tow stack up defensively everyday in the line up.

Great player to bring up Lboros

by ICbirdfan on Jul 31, 2008 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

SS

Is Aurillia any better at SS than Miles at this point?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was saying as an offensive MI tandem...

I guess you can put Miles at SS and Rich at 2B.

I was just saying there is no better offensive combo.

by ICbirdfan on Jul 31, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought the

“master plan” was to improve the infield defense for our pitch-to-contact staff… Neither Miles nor Aurelia has much range. (Aurilia used to, but he’s slowed a lot…)

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 31, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

what an uplifting start.

This is Carpenter’s third game after a year and a half of not pitching. Most pitchers take more than that to get thier form correct in spring training after just a few months off. So the control im not worried about. I love that he was able to battle through troubles.

I know some people were upset that Carp was pulled to have Looper bunt. But the it worked. Yes Carpenter had his best inning right before he got pulled. But it was against two guys hitting below .100 and the lead off guy. In the 5th he would have faced the 2-3-4 guys in the braves line up. Might as well pull him on the positive note and try to get that runner in to get him off the hook. (which they did.)

If my math is right he pitches next on sunday correct? Can’t wait.

by Evilfrog on Jul 31, 2008 10:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Monday

Think it would be Monday. Pitch, then four days off while the other guys go and then back to the mound

by brafi on Jul 31, 2008 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep

Yeah – for some reason, I thought we didn’t have any days off for a while. Didn’t even look at the schedule

by brafi on Jul 31, 2008 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

and then the series finale v. the Cubs...

I’m nervously anticipating that series!

"I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order. Like they should be."

by BigMOman on Jul 31, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Griffey traded

to the White Sox, per Will Carroll at BP. No word on whether he’s approved the trade, however.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2008 10:22 AM EDT reply actions  

But there is word that Kenny Williams has officially lost his mind

Where does Griffey play? I doubt they gave up Dye, Swisher, Quentin, Konerko, or Thome in the deal. Griffey can’t (or at least shouldn’t) play center, and they’re stacked at LF, RF, 1B and DH.

Awfully expensive bench player.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I know

and that’s just plain stupid.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Zach Zabeman (sic?)

on the Score was suggesting Griffey would be an upgrade defensively over Swisher in center
but an outfield of Quinton, Griffey, and Dye is a pitcher’s nightmare

by vances law on Jul 31, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

that's the worst defensive outfield in the history of baseball

and, while I do like Double Z, I’m not quite sure where he gets that Griffey would be an upgrade over Swisher. Griffey is one of the worst right fielders in the game. let alone centerfielders which is where Swisher has been playing (and first base).

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

of course

they also have the option of DH

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

But they have Ji

Jim Thome as their DH

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey Guys

It’s me, ji

My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

by Alxfritz on Jul 31, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Konerko has been putrid

They might DH Griffey and let Thome play first, not that that is any better. Thome in the field is just as scary injury-wise as Griffey in CF.

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait a tic

I just remembered they also have Swisher…

I have no idea what they’re going to do.

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Any chance

we would trade Lohse to the Chi Sox for Griffey?

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jul 31, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's bad

But I wouldn’t say it’s that bad

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure I like

But TLR is a big, big Griffey fan . . .

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jul 31, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

And THIS is why I come here every mornin'

Thanks LB for the detailed recap of Carp’s outing. Like many of you, I’m a transplanted Cards fan, so my local TV package keeps me from seeing many Cards’ games. It’s really cool to be able to count on this level of detail for such an important event in the Cards’ season.

Hell, I even found myself watching far too much ESPNews last night crossing my fingers that they’d give some Carp updates. But alas, every other “bottom line” update was about Favre or Manny’s conversation with ESPN Deportes. At least I got to read that Mather hit the 2-run HR.

Anyway…..thanks again LB (and everyone else on here who keeps the transplanted fans somewhat “in the know”).

by goodymobb on Jul 31, 2008 10:24 AM EDT reply actions  

+1

Thanks LB

"I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order. Like they should be."

by BigMOman on Jul 31, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

just in case

every night, MLB.com has a Wrap of the days individual games (video and everything!). I’ve started to use this since the season started and hardly have to watch ESPN any longer.

MLB.com

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Jul 31, 2008 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was sort of angry

when watching baseball tonight last night, they spent half the program talking about a potential Manny trade (and his stupid trade me to the packers sign). then stuck the Carpenter return towards the end of the show, but not at the end of the show, where they might spend more time on it. at least they showed how his curve is breaking still. I’m just really sick of hearing about manny the buffoon all the time, they’re just feeding his ego.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lohse on the market, per Stark

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3512452&name=mlb_trade_deadline

It says the Rockies are interested, but it is hard to see why they would view themselves as buyers for a starting pitcher, but a seller for Fuentes, Holliday, or whomever they would be moving . . .

by tdawg on Jul 31, 2008 10:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Why not see if anyone will take Looper off our hands?

If we are considering getting Carp and Waino back as essentially “trades,” then wouldn’t dumping Kyle Lohse negate that? Not saying I’m against getting what we can for him, but it’s just hard to get a read on the front office.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

if we're going to see if someone wants Looper

why not try to float Pineiro out there?

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looper is a FA after this season, Pin is signed to a (relatively) large contract through next year

I’d love for someone to take him off our hands, but Looper is better, will be gone after this year, etc.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it would take a lot to get him

and I’d be interested in seeing what we could get. If it’s a lot, I’m willing to listen (particularly if it involves a good, young SS).

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2008 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

same here!

i love what Mighty Kyle has done for us thus far this year, but i have a feeling he’s hit his peak. i’m not saying he’s gonna get hammered every start or anything, just that he’s peaked. If we could hold a team hostage for a couple good young players, especially in the MI, i’d be all for it.

by kalmavet on Jul 31, 2008 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because

they’re still in the race in their awful division.

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

by Futility Infielder on Jul 31, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

IMO

Trading Lohse for Fuentes would be a 1 step forward, two steps back kinda situation.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

however

Tranding lohse for Fuentes and Tulowitzki would be 2 steps back 3 steps forward.

by Evilfrog on Jul 31, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

NO WAY

The Rockies would never give up Tulowitzki but if they offered I would take it in a SECOND.

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

You'd be crazy not to

Hell, I’d do Lohse for Tulo straight up

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lohse for Tulo plus Fuentes

Fuentes is a marginal increase in price due to his contract. Of course, Lohse’s contract situation is essentially the same, which may make Tulo a bit steap in the eyes of the Rockies. That would be awesome, though.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd do more than that

Lohse + prospects for Tulo.

I don’t know if anyone’s noticed, but our SS situation is sort of a mess. Tulo would be an elite long-term solution. I mean, really, no-brainer.

Sadly, it’d probably take Rasmus to get Tulo.

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

You looked at Tulo's Numbers?

He hasn’t been that special this year. I’m- not sure how to weigh this year in contrast to last year’s very good season.
2008 Season
HR – 3
BB – 17
SO – 30
BA – .241
OBP – .309
SLG – .369
OPS – 73

2008 Away from Coors
BA – .241
OBP – .305
SLG – .352

by birdo rojo on Jul 31, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

He was putrid pre-injury, but he’s picked it back up.

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also

Keep in mind that he’s still probably better with the glove than Izturis…so his numbers are bad, but he’s still better than Iz2 all-around.

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess this is the right place

for me to insert my tiresome warning about trading for Rockies hitters. I love Tulo’s defense, his youth, and his leadership potential, BUT this is a guy who got a lot of love last year in spite of his road splits of .256/.327/.393/.719 when he wasn’t hurt.

They probably won’t trade him and we don’t want him.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jul 31, 2008 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Evilfrog

Rockies wouldnt trade Tulo but if they did want to, it would take more than Lohse to get Fuentes and Tulo.
Perhaps Lohse, Anderson for Tulo, Fuentes? that still might not be enough to get them.

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't say it was a reasonable trade

But it be about the only trade i would be willing to make for Lohse.

by Evilfrog on Jul 31, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

This may be (read: probably is) a pipe dream...

But would the Angels give up Brandon Wood and something (a C/C+ type pitching prospect) for Lohse? If you could flip Lohse for Wood, there’s a real chance *this year’s& team could be better for it, not to mention that you’d have five more years of Wood at short.

by whopperman on Jul 31, 2008 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Personally, I not sure I'd want 5 years of Wood at short.

Just because he’s young and inexpensive, doesn’t mean he’s good. From what I’ve read, he’s got a decent glove and decent power. Plus, he strikes out a ton.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

i can deal with K's

as long as he hits for that power and gets on base, a la Dunn, that would be something i would go for.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Jul 31, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

yikes...

Woods K% is inline with Dunn’s but the BB% is now where near the same…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Jul 31, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

In the minors

he struck out 1 once ever. 3.71 at bats.

If he gets 600 at bats at the major league level with the same ratio, thats over 160 strikeouts.

In 42 major league at bats (I know, small sample, but just wait), he’s struck out 33 times.

He ain’t gonna put up Dunn numbers to offset the posibility of striking out so many times. And he’s not exactly an on-base machine either.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree he is not going to be Dunn...

but i think he could put up 30hr .260/.350/.550 at a premium posistion if things click…the 160+K’s really dont make me flinch as long as he gets on base an average amount and puts up good slugging numbers. a cost controlled player who can do that is exciting…to me anyways.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Jul 31, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still think trading Lohse

and praying for Wood to do what you’re asking is not a smart deal to make.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

i guess i dont see why not?

we have Lohse for only two more months so its not like we lose much…its one of those low risk high reward things that people are always clamoring about…i guess we just disagree, thats what its all about…

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Jul 31, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

what if we lose a trip to the playoffs?

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

what if

we gain 4 trips because we have a power hitting shortstop with a good glove?

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Jul 31, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

competent right now?

He’s done absolutley nothing at the major league level than strikeout.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd rather watch him strike out and actually

get to baseballs hit in his direction than which Izturis ground out in the IF and his range that is shrinking by the day.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

and all izz2 does is make outs

at least wood will pop one out every now and then. even at his worst.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Jul 31, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well then

Let’s stash Wood in AAA and call up Barden. I seriously doubt Barden can be any worse than Iz2.

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

He'll be worse than Iz2 right now...

Hard to hit a ball in St. Louis when you’re in Beijing.

Or field one.

by whopperman on Jul 31, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ha

Forgot about that. I guess that’s a pretty good point, from a purely geographic standpoint.

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's gone through his adjustment phase

Takes a little while to get used to the increased quality of pitching, normally.

He’s had about the same number of PA’s as Mather—and before the trip to Atlanta, Mather was sitting at 218/295/364. One good series has raised his SLG 122 points, his OBP 21, and his AVG almost 40.

Keep in mind, we’re talking about a guy that’s 23.

by whopperman on Jul 31, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

im not sold on that...

i think wood would (heh) be an upgrade over izz2 if given the chance to play every day…and our lineup has been a lot worse than our rotation so far this year.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Jul 31, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

if the Angels have one thing

it’s pitching. They’re not trading for Lohse, particularly if it involves giving up something of value.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps

But at the same time, they’ve been impatient with Wood so far. If they think Lohse makes their playoff rotation (no sure thing, I know), I think it’s possible they’d make that kind of move.

by whopperman on Jul 31, 2008 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

sell high

I liked the way 09 rotation was heading with Carp/Wain/Lohse/Looper/TBD, but it’s just hard to believe Lohse’s stock goes higher. If we can get real ‘09 help in return, I would applaud this move.

by Secret Weapon on Jul 31, 2008 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

it would take a lot though

b/c Lohse, undoubtedly, helps us win this year and is worth 2 draft picks next year as compensation. It’s not like we get nothing by keeping him. We get an increased likelihood of winning + the 2 picks. Another team oughtta pony-up for him or he stays.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2008 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thats why I don't like the whole "sell high" approach

simply to sell high. Sometimes you gotta eat a little of the ‘high” if you’re in the thick of it. Doesn’t mean they’re automatically going to sell low, just means that whatever Lohse brings right now is less valuable than having him on the team. Especially if he becomes a Typa A FA, which he has a decent chance at doing.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is he...

A sure bet to get two draft picks, though? It’s based on a two-year average. I know he’s top 20% for 2008, but is he top-20% for 2007-08 together?

by whopperman on Jul 31, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

thats what I thought

but have been foggy on the whole thing. Guess, I still don’t understand it, but I know someone here did a lot of figurin’ and deemed him a pretty safe bet to be a Type A.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

If the Rockies are interested...

That probably means they wont be trading Fuentes or Holliday because they believe they are contenders.

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mo might have...

thrown Lohse’s name out there just to see how many of his fellow GMs started kicking over their chairs—I suspect Mo would ask for a MLB bat and a top prospect just for openers…

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 31, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

hell yeah he would

“fishing” with a name is a sound strategy. Never know what some dimwit might offer.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1 (Literally)

I think he would ask for an MLB bat, LOOGY, and prospect; although, perhaps not a top one.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

the Stark rumor

said he was looking for a bat and a reliever

since Lohse is a pending free agent, what team would match up as trading partners? They have to think they are in contention this season (or want the draft picks when he leaves) but be willing to deal an impact bat and a reliever off their big league club to get him …....

by vances law on Jul 31, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Very few teams would match up

That’s why this is a stupid rumor.

The only teams that would do this deal (that we would trade with) are in the AL or NL West. We need to find a team that would trade an excess LOOGy (I discount the bat) for Lohse. But almost by definition, the teams with LOOGys on the market aren’t in pennant races and therefore don’t need a starter. The Yankees would be one. I don’t know about the Dodgers. The Rockies make little sense. The White Sox are a possibility. I’m not sure there are too many others.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 31, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

What is a LOOGY worth?

I don’t know that one need be in excess. It’s a give-and-take. They’d have to weigh how much they need a starter versus how much they need a LOOGY and bat. Both sides would be giving to get.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Carp was filthy in the 4rth despite the batters

Thanks for the detailed analysis on Carp. It’s always neat to get the quantitative analysis after watching the outing and evaluating it qualitatively in my head.

Re: bunts. I think Cox was just playing the percentages. He wanted early runs and the first batter had reached base. Can’t really blame him for not wanting to aim for a crooked inning. BTW, he did push across one run, which is what he wanted to do instead of a double play and possibly no runs.

Thanks for mentioned AK’s good play up the middle. Iz2 and AK does represent the best D for MIF. And they have been chugging along where fewer and fewer folks are calling for their heads.

Baseball Tonights guys were still not considering Cards to be legit. Even though we are tied for WC lead, all they talk about is Small Bears and Brewers battling in the Central. As far as I am concerned that is just perfect. We’ll play the Rodney Dangerfield card to the at least the WC.

I am down on trading Lohse. We’ve got a good thing going. Let’s see where he gets us this season. I would like to know where Wainer’s at before Lohse is traded. Deals are not impossible through the waiver post 7/31.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Jul 31, 2008 10:41 AM EDT reply actions  

if we're going to play the rodney dangerfield card

i propose journey’s “any way you want it” become the official song of the rest of the season. “don’t stop believin’” will be the b-side.

by mattybobo on Jul 31, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

don't stop believin'?

No way.

That’s got White Sox “stuff” rubbed all over it.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

eww

ok, maybe it doesn’t have to be another journey song. i just have this vivid image in my head now of rodney dangerfield at busch III with his boombox/golf bag saying “hey everyone, let’s party!” and the whole team dancing cheesy 80’s style… this is of course after we clinch the wild card.

by mattybobo on Jul 31, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, all my favorite old comedians are dying off...

i was actually referencing caddyshack and an episode of the simpsons where dangerfield plays mr. burns’ long lost brother… 90% of my material is lifted wholesale from the simpsons…

by mattybobo on Jul 31, 2008 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is the bobo in your name

A reference to Mr. Burns long-lost teddy bear?

by Yellow Dog on Jul 31, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

heh. actually, no. it's not really a reference to anything.

i needed a screenname to use because my buddies in college needed another person to play warcraft 3 online with them. so i went with the first random thing that popped into my head, and since then i’ve used it for login names here and there.

by mattybobo on Jul 31, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

"So what?!?"

“So, let’s dance!!!”

My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

by Alxfritz on Jul 31, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd go with

1812 Overture

Or “I’m Alright” by Kenny Loggins

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

all loggins, all the time

keep the fire

How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor

by themanthemyth on Jul 31, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

man

you guys bring up some really cheesy music on here

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'll take the blame for starting this one

but it pales in comparison to the epic reo speedwagon thread a while ago.

by mattybobo on Jul 31, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was just going with Caddyshack

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't take the credit/blame

All I did was to bring up the fact that we are getting no respect, and then it spirals. Actually, I don’t mind all the music talk.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Jul 31, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'm just glad there are clever pop-culture types on this site

i come here mostly for educational purposes, to gain knowledge from others and become a more enlightened fan. the silly stuff often feels like the only contribution i can make to a conversation.

by mattybobo on Jul 31, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't mind it either

I was just pointing out that the songs mentioned are cheesy.
/music snobbery

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2008 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

While Carp wasn't sharp

(at least ‘til the fourth inning), I’m still of the opinion that he provides a better option than Boggs/Parisi/whoever right now. Perhaps in his next start, he can throw somewhere around 90 pitches; if things go well there, he’s back to carrying a “regular” starting load.

Re: the bunts… maybe Cox was testing Carp’s ability to get off the mound and make a play? The game situation didn’t seem to call for bunts, as lboros noted. Or maybe Cox has “thrown in the towel” and is playing for 2009…

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 31, 2008 10:47 AM EDT reply actions  

Composure

What I admired most about Carpenter’s performance last night was the way he carried himself on the mound. He looked like an ace, even if his performance didn’t reflect it. He just had the look of a focused, experienced competitor who was going to do everything in his power to succeed. Our other starters will feed off of that, I believe.

I didn’t mind seeing Carp use all of his pitches last night. I think he’s still trying to get a feel for them and the strike zone. Two more starts or so and I think a higher percentage of his pitches will be fastballs and curves.

The most encouraging thing of all is that he didn’t leave after two or three batters with pain in his elbow. If we take anything away from last night’s game, it’s that Carp is back!!! At least until April ‘09…

by augustdragon on Jul 31, 2008 10:55 AM EDT reply actions  

+1

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm going to hold my breath

The day after Carp pitches, hoping I don’t see a “Carp experiences tightness” story on stltoday. Otherwise I’m very excited about his return.

by Yellow Dog on Jul 31, 2008 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know about you guys.,

but I love trading deadlines…no matter what sport…rumors flying…wild speculation…holding your breath until the deadline passes, and then even after that when late deals trickle in…it’s like Xmas eve…it’s nice to be on the buying side, too.

by tbell61 on Jul 31, 2008 10:57 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree completely

But still ESPN cant stop themselves from talking about Football even on deadline day….............

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I know it

All I wanna do is hear some baseball talk; I don’t give a crap whether Brett Favre stays retired or not.

by iwannarock24 on Jul 31, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Amen to that

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

so sick of hearing about Brett Favre

and I hate it when guys say they are retiring and then want to come back the very next year. lame! I hopes he upsets the Packers training camp and messes up their season (doubt it though)

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know

I was honestly thinking about seeing a movie this morning (thinking something might be playing at 11am, but it wasn’t), but now that I’m all caught up in the Deadline, I don’t think I’ll be leaving the house.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

ESPN

They got scooped by Fox’s Rosenthal big time. Their Junior Griffey headline still has “Will he okay the deal?” in it while Fox had Junior giving his approval like fifteen minutes ago.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah,

that’s why mlbtraderumors trumps. They get the info out quicly from all sources. Espn is really slow and often don’t seem to be in a hurry.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Very true

It’s a great one-stop shop. They do all the research and funnel it to you. It’s quite wonderful.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

we all know this full well;

if it aint NY/BOS, ESPN doesnt care. Unluess you have the small bears playing somewhere, then, THERE’S a story.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Jul 31, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is anyone else having issue with mlbtraderumors?

Been experiencing loading problems the past couple of days. Figure their servers are overloaded right now.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 11:04 AM EDT reply actions  

Me too

That’s my guess as well

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes...

it’s very slow…and I prefer it to ESPN for all the reasons listed above

by tbell61 on Jul 31, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Weather tonight

The weather channel says there’s a 50% chance of rain in ATL tonight, and says “PM thunderstorms.” Looking at the map it doesn’t look like anything is close or moving this way, but if you’ve lived down here long enough, you know that in the heat of summer these storms just pop up out of nowhere. Hope they get it in.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 11:05 AM EDT reply actions  

storms

Im from Tallahassee, FL and we get the afternoon/pm showers like clockwork during the summer. Seems like every day, roundabout 5-6 pm, here comes a shower on someones house you know.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Jul 31, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

It scared me for a moment when it seemed

I might be wrong about the Cards. The Ohman trade. Phew!!!!!! And now the Lohse play. Wow. Give some thought to that when he takes the mound against the Phillies tomorrow. Unless of course this whole thing is aimed at the Phillies. No matter what the reasoning and the tactic, my concerns about the front office are accurate. It is not about humility, its actually about compassion, because I sense how much everyone here loves the game.

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on Jul 31, 2008 11:15 AM EDT reply actions  

there's some accuracy in your concerns, WCB

but you have an exaggerated perspective. you have an agenda, and you filter your perceptions through it.

by lboros on Jul 31, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

For the sake of discussion...

assume the Cards don’t make a trade today… would that be a major “downer”, or would it just be a case of not finding a match?

And remember, it’s still possible to make a waiver deal after today’s deadline.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 31, 2008 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

It would feel like a downer

But only because names like Roy Halladay, AJ Burnett, Brian Roberts, et al. have been mentioned as possibilities we would receive in trades. They are all completely far-fetched ideas, but I’d rather the team stand pat than make a horrible trade just for trading’s sake, as boring as it would be.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Lets see how it plays out.

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on Jul 31, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

my suspicion is that they're contemplating a trade

that would send lohse plus a young pitcher to the rockies for fuentes and clint barmes, something along those lines. i hope i’m wrong, because i don’t think that’s such a good idea . . . . .

by lboros on Jul 31, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

hmm..

i hope you are wrong too.

by iwannarock24 on Jul 31, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Leery

I’m none-too-enthused about any Mile High batsman. I just don’t know how quanitifiable the rarefied air is up there, even with park effect data.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't really like that very much

But I just don’t like Fuentes

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hate it

Unless there is a separate deal for Burnett also being contemplated

by tdawg on Jul 31, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

If they traded Barmes and Fuentes

wouldn’t that put them in the “sellers” camp? I think that’s just a variation on the “one step forward, two steps back” comment above.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 31, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps the Rockies think

Addition by subtraction?

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

the rockies don't need barmes

now that tulowitzki’s healthy. and they can replace fuentes with manny corpas. so they’d be dealing off superfluous parts to fill their most pressing need, ie the rotation — wouldn’t suffer a dropoff at closer or ss, but would improve at SP. that’d be the thinking, anyway.

likewise the cardinals — their reasoning would be that they’re trading off a guy (lohse) who can be replaced by carp and wainwright, hence no dropoff in the rotation; but they’d be addressing their most pressing needs, the back end of the pen and the middle infield.

i just happen to think that barmes is no good than what they already have in the MI, and while fuentes does upgrade the bullpen i think they’d miss lohse in the rotation.

by lboros on Jul 31, 2008 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

I hate this trade….. I dont like Barmes but Fuentes would be a upgrade in the pen….I really hope Mo does not do this trade I would be VERY disappointed in him if he does…..

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

realize that i'm only speculating

there have not been any reports that such a trade is being contemplated. i’m just going on guesswork — stark says lohse is being shopped and that the rockies have interest, so i’m looking at colorado’s roster to see what type of fit might be there.

by lboros on Jul 31, 2008 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm also getting the feeling

that if Lohse is dealt, they are going to bring someone else in. Whether it’s AJ Burnett or some scrap heap guy…they will replace Lohse via trade, and use Lohse to fill needs.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, if Burnett is coming

I’m ecstatic with that deal. If he isn’t coming, I would ask Mo how many more games he thinks Boggs/Garcia will win versus Lohse. Three or four appearances of losses versus three or four wins with Lohse could very well be the season.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 31, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could there be a three-way trade with us and the Jays in the works?

We send Lohse to team X and a prospect to Jays
Jays send Burnett to Cards
Team X sends prospects to Jays

Or something like that?

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I know and I hope your DEAD WRONG lol.

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

or comments at mlbtraderumors say it could be for jeff kent or orlando cabrera?

by lindqja on Jul 31, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

ewh

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2008 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was gonna comment earlier

but that threw me too and I didn’t feel like asking for clarification, since that would probably just confuse me further. It usually takes a thread of about 5 or 6 posts from WCBW for me to get a grasp.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

i’m kind of new around these parts, and have seldom been able to understand what exactly WCBW is getting at.

by iwannarock24 on Jul 31, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's poetry of a foreign language translated into English

Just keep that in mind as a filter and it’ll make more sense.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Transposed?

English poetry translated into a foreign language may be closer.

by birdo rojo on Jul 31, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wild Card

We are .01 percentage point behind the Brewers in the Wild Card. We could overtake them tonight if both we and the Cubbies pull off four-game sweeps. What a strange and exciting race this is going to be.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 11:58 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, but

This weekend all that could change back. We play the Phillies, the Crew plays the Braves, and the Cubs play their personal whipping boys, the Pirates. It will be tough to keep up this weekend.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Very true

Especially with the Pirates having dumped Nady and perhaps dumping Bay. The Cubs ought to roll over them. The Phillies have won four in-a-row. The projected pitching match-ups:

Friday: Hamels vs. Lohse
Saturday: Blanton vs. Looper
Sunday: Myers vs. Wellemeyer

The question, as per usual, is how our starters will do versus their batters. The Colonel likely won’t be able to grind out a quality start against the Phillies’ bats if he pitches like he did against the Braves. Likewise, Looper will have a tougher go. Lohse yet again draws an NL East ace. Hopefully, he performs like he did against the NL West ace he faced right after the ASG, rather than Santana.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Loshe gets traded

Then who pitches tomorrow being he’s not being traded for another starter?

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 31, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boggs?

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boggs went down 7/28

not available unless there is some obscured rule I don’t know?

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 31, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's why the Lohse deal wouldn't make any sense

you’d be weakening the rotation, without any viable in house solutions…Boggs, Parisi and Garcia need to be doing just what they are doing: pitching every fifth day in AAA and preparing to be big league pitchers

by tbell61 on Jul 31, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unless

you get another starter to take his place

by saladdays on Jul 31, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep

That’s the only answer. They could have a Burnett deal lined up behind it.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 31, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

that would work

IF Burnett or a similar pitcher were coming back and IF it didn’t cost a king’s ransom in prospects

by tbell61 on Jul 31, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mo would be up for a statue

if he could convert Lohse into Barmes, Burnett and Fuentes.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 31, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Easy schedule for Brewers

The Brewers have a pretty easy schedule for August. Only teams >.500 are the Cardinals for 2 games, and the Dodgers. They’ve got the Braves, Reds, Nats, Padres, Astros, and Pirates to beat up on.

by Yellow Dog on Jul 31, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I watch every game and I wouldn’t predict how they’ll do. Of the above list, they just got smacked around by the Stros, I think they lost the last series to the Reds, and every Cards game could have easily gone the other way.

You’re right, but in a way it still sounds like the start of the season. Brewers – lots of talent should do well. Cards – too may holes, will fade. But once again the Cards are tied for the wildcard with the struggling Brewers.

by ol Pete on Jul 31, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haven't you heard???

The Astros are serious contenders. (attempting to say with a straight face…)

by launchshuttle on Jul 31, 2008 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

So,

Troy Hawkins puts ‘em over the top? I’m thinkin’ not!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 31, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep

ESPN showed a nice breakdown last night of the CHC, MIL, and STL remaining schedules.

I don’t recall the particulars, but long story short was the Crew has the “best schedule” on paper….they play the fewest teams w/ winning records, followed by the Cubs who have lots of home games left, then the Cards, who have the most games vs. .500-plus opponents.

The schedule deck is certainly stacked against our guys.

by goodymobb on Jul 31, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

but

A lot of our games are against the Brewers and the Cubs.

by Evilfrog on Jul 31, 2008 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh I know....

And the point of their breakdown (and my narrative) wasn’t to say the Crew has a cakewalk….just paths “on paper.” Another thing I forgot about that was the Cubbies easy schedule….not a lot of games vs. great teams IN ADDITION TO their largely home schedule.

But hey, we were also supposed to win like 75 games “on paper,” so I’ll take my chances.

I am sorta digging the lack o’ respect angle….....if you believe the experts, the Sabathia trade will likely kickstart the national economy and I am pretty sure Obama is about to announce that Alfonso Soriano will be his choice for VP. Really guys???? I mean the Cubs and Brewers are just THAT good?

by goodymobb on Jul 31, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

a wise man with a penetrating baseball mind has often said, "there are no great teams anymore"

seriously though, i am a little mystified by the “experts” exaggerations about the brewers and cubs as well. i wonder if it is, in part, an attempt to focus on national league teams more in response to the feeling of AL bias that is often a big complaint these days? ie, we need an NL equivalent to hype up and go along with the sox, rays, angels hype.

by mattybobo on Jul 31, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

well the Cubs

are gonna get hyped no matter what. I mean, I am pretty sure that Playboy (not the most astute of baseball experts, but still) has picked CHC to win the Central for like the last 6 yrs (and to go to/win the WS in several of those).

I talk to my Cub-fan buddy about this a lot. Basically, we think that every expert wants to be the one who called the championship drought, so they just keep picking it until it happens.

by goodymobb on Jul 31, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

This has nothing to do with anything but McCain should pick Cal Ripken as VP lol..Ripken would win the election for him.

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nah

it would make more sense for Ripken to go into congress and set the longest consecutive votes streak in history

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 31, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

+1

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

What's that record, like seven?

[/political “humor”]

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of Rip.....

I freakin’ LOVE that commercial where he’s the speaker in some business seminar or whatever where the guy says something like “Can we earn nicknames?”

Ripken: “Like what?”
Lady: “Mrs. Ripken Jr.”
Guy 1: “Bob.”
Guy 2: “Snake Eyes.”
Ripken: “Really?”

by goodymobb on Jul 31, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

....my quick smells like french toast...

by mstreeter06 on Jul 31, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

a division this strong is going to make things come down to the season series between the top three, which really is the way that things should be.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 31, 2008 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree

Which is why that season where the Cards didn’t play the Cubs after the beginning of August made no sense whatsoever.

by saladdays on Jul 31, 2008 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

i about fell out of my chair

"Textbooks are Soviet propaganda" - Rev. Jerry Falwell

by elirock83 on Jul 31, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll miss Ken Griffey Jr.

being in the National League. Wow, it feels like one of the Cardinals were traded, oddly enough.

Sorry…had to vent.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2008 12:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Not to hijack....

but it looks like Manny has signed off on a deal to FL.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/07/29/heyman.tradeblog/index.html?eref=si_topstories

I really don’t know why a team would give up a lot for him and do Boston the favor. They’re obviously ready to deal him, he wants out, etc., etc., so why would you part with good talent? In every other sport, when a guy starts pissing and moaning about not feeling the love, trade me now, etc., the conventional wisdom says that it kills his value.

Apparently if you’re Boston, you can get rid of a headache AND get some quality talent in return.

by goodymobb on Jul 31, 2008 12:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Plus Pittsburgh is holding up the deal

for more talent. Where did you go Dave Littlefield?

by Red in Chicago on Jul 31, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

2 reasons

1) Today is the trade deadline
2) The Marlins are trying like hell to win the division.

The Marlins and Pirates have much more incentive to make this deal than the Sox have in getting rid of Manny.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have tix to two of the September Marlins games at Busch

When I bought them before this season I was a little worried I was going to be seeing two teams full of AAAA players auditioning for next year. The seasons the Cards and Marlins have put together so far have been quite a nice surprise. A Manny trade to the Marlins would make that series even better.

by birdjam on Jul 31, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd rather see them playing

without Manny, but that’s just me…

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2008 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course

I would imagine that Florida is now courting offers regarding Manny Rarmirez for prospects…

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 31, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doesn't Boston hold a club option for Manny?

That would transfer over to Florida, then right? Which they would probly decline?

by tbell61 on Jul 31, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unless someone in Florida

had a case of insanity and suddenly found $20 million.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 31, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was more being facetious

and remembering that week where Mike PIazza was a Marlin

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 31, 2008 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to

Hayman (SI), Florida would drop the club options, allowing Manny to become a FA after the season. So, he’d be a rental, and the Marlins would take the draft picks… but What Do I Know?

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 31, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

OTOH...

Per ESPN:

Manny deal ‘close to dead’

Thursday, July 31, 2008 |

Posted by Peter Gammons
A source close to the three-way negotiations involving Manny Ramirez says the deal is close to dead. Florida has reportedly asked Boston for a cash outlay beyond the $7M to cover Ramirez’s contract, in addition to two prospects. That essentially would add up to the Red Sox trading Ramirez, $9M and two prospects for Jason Bay.

by birdjam on Jul 31, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

The latest from Rotoworld:

Manny Ramirez-OF- Red Sox Jul. 31 – 1:18 pm et

According to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the Pirates have agreed to the prospects they’d receive in a Manny Ramirez-Jason Bay-Jeremy Hermida deal.
That was supposed to be the biggest remaining hurdle. If this is correct, then talks are anything but dead.
Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

by birdjam on Jul 31, 2008 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm thinking of ignoring the next three hours...

... and just checking back in to see where the dust settles.

by birdjam on Jul 31, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just when I think I'm out...

... they suck me back in!

Blame game over Manny

Posted by Jayson Stark
Yet another official with one of these three teams says the Manny-Bay deal is dead. In the aftermath, the teams involved seem unsure of what happened. The Pirates are blaming the Marlins. The Marlins are blaming the Pirates. And the Red Sox aren’t too happy with either of them.

by birdjam on Jul 31, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Throwback

While perusing the SI.com trade info, I noticed this awesome photo of the Pirates’ 1988 jerseys: yellow from head to knee.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0807/history.july31/content.1.html?eref=sircrc

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 12:50 PM EDT reply actions  

I hated those

thank goodness Clemente never had to be photographed in those things

by tbell61 on Jul 31, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's not a 1988 jersey, son

Willie Stargell played in the 1970s. He was inducted to the Hall of Fame in 1988.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 31, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's circa 1979

1984 was the last year of the multi colored jerseys in Pittsburgh

by tbell61 on Jul 31, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

It might even be earlier than that

though definitely not 1976. I think some of us can remember those hats quite well. The Cardinals had them too, IIRC.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 31, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

wasnt that the 1976 hat?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 31, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

1977

For some reason, the site had 1988 as the year, but the photo is from the seventies. I think they might have published it when he was inducted. My mistake.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 31, 2008 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm so sick of hearing about Brett Favre, but I just want to say this

I wish there was a football franchise that would pay me $20 million to not play football

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 12:58 PM EDT reply actions  

they realize that

They just think it’s time to move on to Rogers.

by Evilfrog on Jul 31, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

$20 mill over ten years

Do you know what I could do with that kind of bank?!

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he gets activated

and sits out, he gets $12 M from the Packers.

If he is cut, he gets a lot more from some team looking to sign him.

$20 M was actually an insult. They owe him $30 M on his non-guaranteed contract.

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

The ironic thing is

as much as Favre bitches about the Packers never doing anything to add talent or what have you, they spent a 1st rounder on Aaron Rogers what like 3 yrs ago? Had Brett had any semblance of a plan, that 1st rounder could’ve been on the field instead of holding a clipboard for the last few yrs.

by goodymobb on Jul 31, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

that 1st rounder has gotten hurt every time he stepped on the field

and he went on record a couple of years ago saying that they had the best talent he’d ever played with.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

sorry

No, not “THAT” first rounder as in “Rogers” being on the field. I meant that if Favre communicated his intentions, maybe they draft a stud WR, RB, OL, whatever instead of pissing away a first rounder on a guy who unless he plays this yr, will have never even seen the field as a Packer.

by goodymobb on Jul 31, 2008 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Favre was returning that year. The coach at the time was shocked at the move and was totally against it.

by ol Pete on Jul 31, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

For the way he's handling it

or the fact that he came out of retirement? I don’t fault him for coming back, as this isn’t the first time (and won’t be the last) it’s happened. They way it’s been handled by all parties isn’t the best, although Favre probably is more to blame at this point.

by saladdays on Jul 31, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

imo- if decided he wants to play

who are we to say he shouldnt, everyone changes their mind…if the pack dont want him let someone else have him…personally i would trade rodgers and draft another QB next year…Farve > Rodgers for this year and probably next and the packers should be win now.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Jul 31, 2008 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

they drafted like 9 QBs THIS yr

including Brohm from LOU, who was like a top 5 pick if he’d have come out 2 yrs ago.

by goodymobb on Jul 31, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

it was two

and they only had two qb’s on the roster (Favre and Rodgers) so no matter what they say, they were going to have to draft 1, probably 2, qbs in the draft anyway.

And, why is that an excuse to not want Brett Favre? The Vikings and Bears and other teams involved made plans yet would kill to get Favre. Why should Aaron Rodgers and a couple of mediocre rookies trump Brett Favre?

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I realize they didn't REALLY draft 9 QBs.....

and now I absolutely have to stop talking about Favre.

This topic spread like a virus….....might as well just turn on ESPN and see if Sal Paolantonio has any non-updates or if they’re showing anymore shots of Brett getting into his effin’ truck.

by goodymobb on Jul 31, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cause he Retired

He could of played another year but retired. Now he comes back to just stir up shit

by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

or because he changed his mind...

no, no i think youre right he just want to stir up shit…he was bored at home in Kiln and thought “how can i piss everyone off and ruin my reputation at the same time?”...”i know i could come back and play…but i really dont want to play anymore…but i do love to stir up shit.”

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Jul 31, 2008 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

that i will agree with

n/t

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Jul 31, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

They either need to play him or release him

I understand why they don’t want to release him, but the trade front doesn’t look that promising. They can’t have it both ways.

by saladdays on Jul 31, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

EXACTLY

They can’t say they don’t want him AND dictate what he does with his career.

by goodymobb on Jul 31, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

controlling what he does with his career . . .

isn’t that kind of what a professional team does when a player is under contract?

by Rep the High Socks on Jul 31, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

sure

when he’s under contract (which he is, as of now). However, the only reason they haven’t released him is b/c they don’t want him going to MIN. I mean honestly, if there was some way to guarantee that he didn’t to to MIN, wouldn’t they just cut him and be done with it?

I guess I feel like if they’ve said “QB X is our guy” then stand by that. As they say, actions speak louder than words and right now, their actions say “yeah, but” in terms of their confidence in Rogers (who I think will be pretty good, FWIW).

by goodymobb on Jul 31, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

No they wouldn't

he costs way too much against the salary cap.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

And as the days go on

It is becoming pretty clear that Favre wants to go to Minnesota. Packers opened up dialogue with Tampa. Tampa reaches out to talk to Favre, but Favre hasn’t spoken with them. Ditto for the Jets.

What’s that tell you? That tells me that he is playing a game of chicken with the front office until he gets exactly what he wants out of this. And I suspect that’s the Minnesota gig. If he just wanted to play football, I think something would be done by now. Those teams have to know he wants to be there before they make an offer for him, and Favre isn’t giving that.

I’m a Packer fan since Lynn Dickey was QB, so I will always be grateful for all that Favre has done for the Packers. But he is handling this like a self absorbed prima donna. And a bit of a hypocrite too, when you think back to how he called out Sterling Sharpe & Javon Walker when they had arguments with management. I guess that’s what happens when everyone tells you how great you are for 17 years. Nowhere does Favre indicate that he is least bit aware of his (significant) role in all this mess.

I’m like Alxfritx, I clearly have too much passion around this whole fiasco too.

by Merry CRasmus on Jul 31, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

+ 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Excellent post, Merry CRas. Right on the money.

I’ve been a Packer fan since BART STARR was QB (yikes, I’m old) and I’m so disgusted with Favre I’d like to see the Packers trade him to Miami for a vending machine size bag of Doritos. If this is really about a desire to play football, let him go suffer through a 4-12 (at best) season for the love of the game.

by punditmoi on Jul 31, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d take what you say about Favre and say it applies to Ted Thompson. You know, the guy who offered to let him compete for the job and a half dozen other lies. A guy who is proud of his Christian beliefs.

Favre has repeatedly noted his errors, so why you would say something that I don’t know.

by ol Pete on Jul 31, 2008 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

because if they release him..

They’ll have to pay for him to play for someone else when he gets picked up.

by Evilfrog on Jul 31, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

and take the salary cap hit, which is huge

In all actuality, they can do both. The Packers hold all the leverage.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

with a playoff ready team?

that’s just stupid. Why would you choose Rogers over your Pro-Bowl quarterback who might be the best QB ever?

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, hopefully Favre comes back,

leads them to the NFC title game, then throws the game ending/changing interception on yet another dumb pass. That’d be great to live through again. Or, conversely, maybe he should just freakking retire already and let Rodgers finally have his chance.

Yes, I’m a packers fan. and apparently bitter.

My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

by Alxfritz on Jul 31, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why does Rodgers deserve a chance?

And why does Favre have to give it to him? He is under contract for 3 more years, right?

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't talk rationally about this

so I’m not going to.

My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

by Alxfritz on Jul 31, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I get it.

I just think its amazing how the Packers were able to turn so many fans against a guy who’s done so much for the franchise, is the face of the franchise, and still was an All-Pro last year.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

A lot of people

starting getting fed up with Favre when he 1) openly mentioned two years ago that he was not there to mentor Rodgers and he’d have to learn on his own and 2) turned into a Clemens-esque media whore.

Best player in franchise history; it’d be nice if he’d just ride off into the sunset gracefully, but that ship has obviously already sailed.

My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

by Alxfritz on Jul 31, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

that ship sailed

and sunk once it left the harbor…

When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?

by RosevilleRedbird on Jul 31, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a Cards board so I won’t go into it, but I think just about the exact opposite of what you do.

by ol Pete on Jul 31, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, they're just willing to pay $20M

to not have to deal with this retirement business again next summer, and likely the summer after that, and the summer after that, ad infinitum.

by Rep the High Socks on Jul 31, 2008 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

Now we’re talking about football….

by saladdays on Jul 31, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

New VEB rule

NO TALKING ABOUT BRETT FAVRE lol…......

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I never meant to completely jack the thread

Here’s hoping we land Burnett and Halladay for Flores so that we get back on baseball topics, lol

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder how many of these "Bay to __________" rumors are legit...

... and how many are just misinformation put out there by the Pirates trying to sweeten the haul in the Manny blockbuster.

by birdjam on Jul 31, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I need a time machine

and go three hours into the future. Everyone is involved with everyone. This is ridiculous.

My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

by Alxfritz on Jul 31, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just heard that the Yankees

have inquired to Babe Ruth’s granddaughter about his remains…

by saladdays on Jul 31, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Will the Red Sox counter

with an inquiry about Ted WIlliams’s head?

by Red in Chicago on Jul 31, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

they would probably trade Jeters remains for that

(not threatening Jeter with death, but instead implying that he’s a shell of his former self)

"I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order. Like they should be."

by BigMOman on Jul 31, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now for your daily ACT practice quiz:

41. Joe Morgan is to broadcasting as J.P. Riccardi is to ____?
a) bafoons
b) general managers
c) managers at McDonald’s
d) angry little men

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait a second

Before I answer this, I have to know how tall JP Riccardi is. Only then can I choose the “best answer.”

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

furthermore, he obviously meant SAT

if this were the ACT, there would be a ridiculously complicated graph, chart, or other visual just to throw us off, when all we really needed was to read the question carefully. stupid science reasoning section…

by mattybobo on Jul 31, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

spoken like someone from the midwest

Who didn’t do very well on the ACT ;)

New Member of the Skip Schumaker Fan Club

by cyko42 on Jul 31, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm down with that

“You know what really grinds my gears? People in the 19th century. Why don’t they get with the freakin program? It’s called an automobile, folks. It’s much faster than a horse! “

New Member of the Skip Schumaker Fan Club

by cyko42 on Jul 31, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Science reasoning cost me a 30 on my ACT

Got a stupid 27 on that section and finished with a 29. Man was I pissed off.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jul 31, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

section ticket me off too

it also brought my total score down by one

"I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order. Like they should be."

by BigMOman on Jul 31, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Science reasoning section made my ACT score when I took it

Was there a math section too? That probably carried me from borderline college student to scholarship recipient. If there was a test we’d have to take measuring solely our reading and history aptitude, I’d be fixing your toilet right now.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Plumbers

Can make a lot of dough…

by Yellow Dog on Jul 31, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mario's got some serious ups

I’m surprised he didn’t join The League. He can jump to heights of like 4-5x his height

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he jumps on a baserunner's head,

is the runner out?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jul 31, 2008 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha

to each his own.
what is interesting to me is that they’ve added that writing section to the SAT. somethign similar was in the PSAT when I took it but it had yet to be introduced into the real test until I was in college. it was of course my best PSAT section of the three.

by mattybobo on Jul 31, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Plumbers

before I joined the Military, I was a plumber in Tallahassee. I never came home feeling like I was under-paid… well, for the most part anyway. I was about the middle of the road as far as pay went, but I wasnt complaining. The guy who I received my apprenticeship from made well over $30 an hour and our boss charged $125 just for us to show up for a service call.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Jul 31, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dont get the White Sox..........

Why get Griffey?????
Unless they are trading one of Thome, Dye, Swisher, Quention

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 1:14 PM EDT reply actions  

That makes more sense

But where is Konerko gonna go? the bench?

"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe

by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hunter Pence for Nick Swisher

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

And play Hunter Pence...

Nevermind. I started using logic before I realized we were talking about Ed Wade and Kenny Williams.

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably Konerko

he was good 5 years ago and can play 1B and DH. Fits right into their plans.

by Tackle Box on Jul 31, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not nearly as bad

The Pirates traded 10 million for nothing. They should’ve just lit it on fire.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jul 31, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not sure why the Reds would trade Dunn

unless they get some REAL good prospects for him. Being close to Cincy and getting to watch them on a regular basis, it seems to me that Dunn is a big part of their offense. Yeah they have Bruce now….but he has really slowed down since his red hot start in the bigs and I don’t think he will be able to carry this team alone over the next couple of years. They really don’t have a big power hitter on their AAA team that could match the numbers Dunn gives them in the HR department.

I can see getting rid of Griffey because he is about finished but if I were the Reds I wouldn’t be so quick to trade Dunn UNLESS they get some great prospects in return.

by KYCards on Jul 31, 2008 1:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Dunn's a free agent at the end of the year

I’m surprised there’s not more interest than there appears to be.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

No kidding

Although if this amount of interest is accurate, then maybe Dunn won’t be getting the paycheck he thinks and the Reds will be able to afford him.

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dunn seems to like playing in Cincy

and I think they could sign him to a new deal in the off season. I think if they get rid of him they are going to be a team that will really struggle in the next two years to score runs. He’s just too big of a bat to replace…last time I checked he’s leading the league in HRs.

by KYCards on Jul 31, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I turn on the tube and what do I see

A whole lotta people cryin’ ‘Don’t blame me’
They point their crooked little fingers at everybody else
Spend all their time feelin’ sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma’s too thin; your daddy’s too fat

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2008 1:36 PM EDT reply actions  

really?

You see Snell alot more than I do, because you live in Pitt, but he seems like another Anthony Reyes to me. Do we really need that?

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 31, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I saw Snell

pitch a no-hitter in AAA. He was definitely electric that afternoon..

by ckeiner on Jul 31, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, man. Snell to the Mets would be terrific-for the Mets.......

Two of the the mainstays in their rotation, Oliver Perez and John Maine came to them after not performing too well for their previous teams. Go look at how they are doing now…......someone in their organization knows something about fixing pitchers…....I happen to believe Snell is having an off year, and some of it is an injury this year, some from a spike in innings last year. If the Pirates make him available, I would think they could do quite well for themselves. He would be wanted by a lot of teams. Or at least he should be.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Someone in the organization, eh?

Like…Rick Peterson?

Wait, no, they fired him.

by mojowo11 on Jul 31, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

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