Would you trade Izturis back to the Dodgers now?
by CardsWin on Jul 30, 2008 3:10 AM EDT
53 comments
Hey, all you Izturis detractors, why are you not lobbying for Izturis to be traded to the Dodgers? (Jason Stark says the Boys in Blue are looking for a backup SS. See below.) Perhaps the Cards could replace Izturis with Brian Barden.
It is becoming increasingly clear that Brendan Ryan should remain a backup player. He's only two years younger than Cesar, and Brendan has not done any better with the bat than Izturis. In fact, their hitting stats are very similar, except Ryan doesn't even have one home run, and his ratio of strikeouts to walks is not nearly as good as Cesar's; and his fielding is not as consistently excellent, so actually Cesar has played better in the field and at bat.
Dodgers looking for SS
Posted by Jayson Stark
The Dodgers are now unsure about the future of two shortstops -- Nomar Garciaparra (who sprained a ligament in his left knee) and Rafael Furcal (back surgery) -- so they've resumed their search for another. But with Furcal expected to return in early September, the Dodgers don't seem to be focused on acquiring a front-line player. Instead, they've been inquiring about utility players -- bats off the bench -- who can fill in at short for a couple of weeks.
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I would trade Cesar for 5 Dodger Dogs
and a autograph photo of Tommy Lasorda at this point. I don’t care who replaces him because it would be an upgrade…although Ryan hasn’t been tearing the cover off the ball, I would take anyone over Izturis.
by KYCards on Jul 30, 2008 3:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Barden's stats
To add some flavor, the guy is hitting .295/.358/.436 with 9 HR and 35 RBI. He has a K:BB ratio of almost 2:1 this year, as well. He’s also 27 this year (older than Ryan) and has been in a bit of a slump, recently.
I wouldn’t mind trading Izturis, but you’ll never get anything for him. At least he plays solid defense, even if his bat is a black hole in the lineup.
by Phyrkrakr on Jul 30, 2008 4:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Plus
Barden is an Olympian, isn’t he?
With his age, he’ll fit right in with our outfield of late bloomers.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 30, 2008 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lboros pointed out how bad Barden was defensively.......
Lboros found the numbers and Barden was worse than Eckstein….. He better be able to hit 18+ HR to make up for his defensive issues and last year when he was up with STL he did not stand out as a batter.
by ICbirdfan on Jul 30, 2008 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I vote for him not
coming back to the Cubs. Perhaps you could interest Dusty in taking him under his wing in Cinci. Dusty loves the underdog or perhaps the undertalented is more correct.
"That guy is a gamer." said Ron Santo of Reed Johnson on 07-25-08
by love the ivy on Jul 30, 2008 5:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Dodgers wouldn't take him
He is OPSing .626 and has an OBP that is sub-.300, which is so incredibly bad, I don’t know that I can convey it in mere words. Izturis is the new Mendoza. For OBP, we’ll call .300 the “Izturis Line.” Like it or not, we are stuck with this talentless offensive player for the rest of the year, unless we DFA him.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 30, 2008 8:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
See Andrew Jones
For the year: .199/.279 /.313 , below the Izturis line. In all fairness, he does have 38 RBIs and 8 HRs and has been platooned (probably too strong a word) with Pierre.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Aug 1, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course I would.
If we could get a single prospect, it’d be a good deal.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jul 30, 2008 9:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If we got
$5,000 cash and his plane ticket paid for we’d be lucky…lol
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 30, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
I’d take a bag of baseball personally…
The guy is slick with the glove, but he is probably one of the worst everyday players in all of baseball on the offensive side. On second thought, we may be hosing the Dodgers or any other team in that bag of balls trade…Maybe I’d settle for just the bag, sans baseballs…
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 30, 2008 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A thought
I don’t know if either team would be willing to do this, particularly the Sox, but how about catching prospect Bryan Anderson for shortstop Jed Lowrie? Anderson has nowhere to go with Yadi entrenched and Boston needs someone to replace Veritek in a year or so – and have very little good prospects in that position in their farm system. The problem is Boston knows Lowrie is close to being a starter since Lugo is lame and Cora is just a backup. Maybe we could sweeten the pot.
Just a thought.
by ccthemovieman on Jul 30, 2008 10:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
I’ve had the same thought many a time and it doesn’t seem as if anyone has anything against it. I just don’t know if Boston would do it. Both SS and C are a premium position. The free agent catchers are all older guys that would probably be good for one year deals so just in case Anderson wasn’t ripe enough they would have insurance there. Plus the SS market is fairly weak with Furcal, Orlando Cabrera and possibly Edgar Renteria viable options. The Red Sox need a catcher. The Cardinals need a shortstop. It makes almost too much sense.
by flipthebird on Jul 30, 2008 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't feel like discussing Brendan Ryan and Cesar Izturis
Wow they are not good offensively…...............
I don’t know what trade value either of them would really have. You might get some average minor league relief pitcher for them.
by ICbirdfan on Jul 30, 2008 10:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They ought to
just pick up Everett for the league minimum.
by liam on Jul 30, 2008 1:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Just so everyone knows
most of what is stated in this diary is misleading, completely subjective or categorically false.
Brendan Ryan should remain a backup player
Why? You go on to say that he approximates Izturis with the bat but isnt’ quite as good a fielder. While I don’t agree with your assessment, I will say that I don’t think the difference you just described is worth 2.5M dollars (their difference in salary).
Brendan has not done any better with the bat than Izturis
Izturis OPS – .585
Ryan OPS – .590
That looks like the same player to me. Who cares if he hasn’t done better, he’s done just as well.
except Ryan doesn’t even have one home run
And I should care about this because? Do I owe Izturis a steak dinner for his 1 HR this year? That’s such a meaningless statement.
his ratio of strikeouts to walks is not nearly as good as Cesar’s
When two players are both getting on base around 30% of the time is it even worth quibbling over who strikes out more? If we assume that Cesar is advancing the runner everytime Ryan is striking out (certainly an overly optimistic statement)—each time that happens is worth .15 runs in an RE matrix. So that has to happen 100 times before it would be a 1 win difference. The difference over a full season looks like 35 more strikeouts for Ryan which is maybe 5 runs (maybe).
his fielding is not as consistently excellent, so actually Cesar has played better in the field and at bat.
First, they were hitting near the same and now Cesar is better with the bat? How does that happen in the course of 5 sentences. Fact: It doesn’t; you are biased. As far as their fielding, Izturis has a .854 RZR at SS and Ryan has a .849 RZR. If you compare OOZ plays Izturis makes about 6 more after equalizing playing time. So over 2/3 of the season, Izturis has perhaps 5 runs more in fielding at SS than Brendan Ryan. This garbage about his fielding not being as consistently excellent is completely made up.
To sum it up: They’re virtually the same player but Izturis costs 2.5M more. You’re overstating or misstating virtually every aspect of the game in Izturis’ favor.
by azruavatar on Jul 30, 2008 3:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OK, you made sure we know.
Did CardsWin kick your puppy or something? Wow.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Jul 30, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's an ongoing comment by Cardswin
where he shows up. Tries to prove how much better Izturis is by a bunch of subjective statements or exaggerations. It gets old.
All I did was enumerate the fallaciousness of the post.
by azruavatar on Jul 30, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Over react much?
My, my, AZ. What a strong reaction.
All just for my asking the question of whether it would benefit the Cardinals to get rid of Izturis and go with Ryan as the everyday SS for the last two months of the season? (Which, by the way, would save less than a million dollars.) Chill out, AZ!
I didn’t overstate the comparison nor engage in “overstating or misstating virtually every aspect of the game in Izturis’ favor.” I noted factually that Ryan and Izturis are very close in their hitting stats except for two things. Izturis has a homerun and Ryan doesn’t (I didn’t hype that bit of minutia), and Ryan strikes out more. (I didn’t blow that out of proportion either, but you took great care to downplay the significance of that small fact.)
We were having a congenial conversation until you chipped in, starting with “most of what is stated in this diary is misleading, completely subjective or categorically false”. What’s with such a strong condemnation?
by CardsWin on Jul 30, 2008 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ryan is not a championship calibre SS, nor the SS of the future for the Cards
When I said , “It is becoming increasingly clear that Brendan Ryan should remain a backup player”, I meant that regardless of whether or not Izturis is with the Cardinals, Ryan has not demonstrated to date that he is a championship calibre short stop. The Cards need to upgrade the position. Ryan has value as a backup, but if he were to be the starter for the rest of this season or next year, the team would essentially be banking on about the same level of hitting and fielding they have gotten from the position this year.
That is the point.
by CardsWin on Jul 30, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your point seems to be a comparison of the two
not whether Ryan is a SS of any caliber. Any statement you make about Ryan is equally applicable to Izturis and vice versa with the exception of cost. Delineations that are as marginal as the ones above are meaningless, imo.
by azruavatar on Jul 30, 2008 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ryan also has the potential
to be a better hitter than he has been this year in his limited playing time, and izturis has been playing pretty much as we all expected him to (except for CWS).
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
by SleepyCA on Jul 31, 2008 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a strong condemnation because you approach this conversation
with a pretty blantant bias every time you bring it up. Rarely do the facts support your statements.
I’ll note that you don’t respond to even one thing I posted either. Bringing up the difference of a single HR (which you never called out originally—you just say that Ryan hasn’t hit homeruns allowing the readers to make their own interps) and noting the difference in strikeouts as if they matter is an inherent overstatement. If we count those factors to their extreme, you are talking about a couple of runs over the course of a season. The error bars are too big to act like we can really quantify something that incremental.
I’m not attacking you. I’m disagreeing with the way you present the argument (tell all the truth but tell it slant) and the random unfounded statements you make. Don’t try to make this an “AZ’s being unreasonable” thing—I’m not. I presented some facts and questioned your interpretations. Nothing more nothing less.
by azruavatar on Jul 30, 2008 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting....
You’re turning this into an argument, for no reason.
The fact is very simple. Ryan has been no better than Izturis this year, at bat or in the field, despite you and others touting him as superior to Izturis for some time now. Yes, he costs less. But without Ryan or Izturis, the Cards would still need infield depth, with Spezio gone and with no middle infielder or utility infielder on the roster who can provide the combination of power and versatility that Spezio did. Such a player would come with a cost. The question of infield productivity or lack thereof was my focus in discussing Ryan and Izturis together.
Obviously your focus is to cast my comments as “random unfounded statements” that are “misleading, completely subjective or categorically false”. Are you making a subjective evaluation or a factual assessment? Are you showing a bias in your harsh condemnation of what was a congenial post on this blog?
I come to VEB for interesting dialogue and sometimes for friendly debate. I’m not interested in the kind of vitriolic back and forth you seem intent on in this case. I suggest you find some way to calm down and put things in perspective. Until then, I have nothing further to say to you.
by CardsWin on Jul 30, 2008 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are the one who made the comparison between the two and then said
“so actually Cesar has played better in the field and at bat.”
I’m saying that statement and the ones you make prior to it are exaggerations or false. I provided facts. I looked at the stats. You didn’t. Once you noticed that I wasn’t going to just let your statements go unquestioned, you immediately tossed it back on me as me “overreacting” and that I need to “chill out”.
It’s real easy to find your previous posts about Izturis. In the first link you say “Izturis [...] is turning out to have been the best SS available when the Cardinals let Eckstein walk.” when there was a 6 point OPS difference between he and Ryan. Later in the post you call me out and low and behold, his performance WAS unsustainable. In the second link, you made a protracted update about your “correct” prediction.
This isn’t me being vitriolic or worked up. You’ve a history of (strongly) backing Izturis and how his numbers showed he should bat around .300 and other things that never materialized this season. You’ve called me out specifically in previous fanposts about Izturis. Don’t try to assume some moral high ground here because a) you wouldn’t have it and b) I’m not interested in anything of that nature.
I questioned your conclusions. You say I’m overreacting. I clarify my position on the facts. You say you can’t discuss it with me. I make some objective arguments. You respond with attacks on the intent and demeanor of my posts when I’ve specifically said your inferences about the nature of my posts was incorrect.
If you want to come here to discuss—great! Be prepared to back up your claims.
by azruavatar on Jul 30, 2008 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speez doesn't play MIF
Izturis and Ryan are duplicative talents, much like AK and Miles. There’s no need to have both pairs on the team. One of each would suffice. Saving $2M for a light-hitting SS would free up that money to be put to other, more fruitful signings-like a LOOGY, for instance-in the offseason.
First, you project that the 2004 Izturis will produce for the Cards this year. Then, you post that he is doing above expectations (other than your own). Now, I’m not sure why you are defending Izturis, who is paid five times as much as Ryan, for being Ryan’s offensive equal. The argument, from my understanding, has always been: Why pay Izturis $2.5M to play SS when we have at least as good an offensive player in Ryan who costs a few hundred thousand dollars?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 30, 2008 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2.5 Mill
I fully understand teams have a budget but come on. It’s a bit of an overstatement to make it sound like because Iz makes 2.5 Mill this year it is stopping the cards from signing another player. I understand the premise but it is not a realistic statement.
Knowing know how the two have panned out it would have probably been just as easier to play Ryan at SS everyday. However the Cards were not sure how consistently Ryan was going to 1. catch the ball and 2. hit the ball (may need a few days off).......It is known that Izturis can field the ball pretty well (last year was an abberation in that he was moved all over the diamond and a bit banged up).
I understand the premise but 2.5 Mill is never going to stop the team from getting a player they actually want and need.
I can see Bill Dewitt saying, “I really want to sign Brian Fuentes but I am at my $99 mill payroll threashold. That dam Izturis is causing me to be 1.2 mill short on signing Fuentes” Just is not a realistic idea.
by ICbirdfan on Jul 30, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's the accumulation though
2.5 for Izturis
.6 for Flores
1.8 for Franklin
Boom—there’s 5M dollars that the Cardinals could have spent elsewhere by recognizing that they can get the same or very, very near approximation of production from players in the system.
by azruavatar on Jul 30, 2008 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't forget
3.5 million for springer.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jul 31, 2008 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
springer has earned his $3.5M
that’s pretty cheap, actually, for the “bullpen ace” role he’s played.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
by SleepyCA on Jul 31, 2008 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is true azruavatar.....being smart with $$ is wise
I don’t know, but I really think the Cards have to figure something out this off season. Izturis should not come back and Brendan Ryan should not be counted on to start.
by ICbirdfan on Jul 31, 2008 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
all the crap starts to add up quickly when you have multiple bad little contracts.
by ICbirdfan on Jul 31, 2008 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The multiple "bad" little contracts are not what is limiting the Cards.
The contracts that are limiting the Cards are Isringhausen, Mulder, Clement, Pineiro, and Carpenter. These are “big” contracts for guys that have had very little contribution to the team this year. While Kennedy, Izturis, and Flores have not particularly panned out this year, the salaries are low enough that they are not crippling.
What has been the biggest limitation is that, while the Cards have seemed to develop a fairly deep bench of OFs and RHPs, they are extremely bereft of LHPs and IFs. Ryan has not been an answer. Barden is not an answer. Freese and Craig are not going to be answers. Maybe they have some options at 1B. Garcia seems to be the only LHP option available, and I don’t bank that heavily on a single prospect panning out.
by etp_stl on Aug 1, 2008 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your assessment, bgh, as I do in most questions
For example, I heartily agreed when you wrote this morning:
That leaves the black hole that is SS. I’d have been all for an upgrade, but there wasn’t even a SS on the market that I read about in any of the rumor/speculation thrown out over the last few weeks. About the only position that is in desperate need of an offensive upgrade is SS, which the majority of this community forecast at season’s eve. But, there wasn’t much on the FA market in the offseason at SS and there wasn’t much on the trade market either.
by bgh on Aug 1, 2008 11:35 AM EDT
and I heartily agreed when you added:
The Cardinals offense has been very good this year and could be even better without Cesar Izturis in the everyday lineup. SS is in serious need of an upgrade, but there wasn’t much on the market at the position.
by bgh on Aug 1, 2008 1:01 PM EDT
Of course, playing the 31-year-old Miles at SS as the regular would have improved the offense this year (assuming Miles would have continued as an everyday player to play above his career norms, versus regressing to the mean). But what Miles would have substracted from defense at SS would have more than offset what he adds in offense. It’s not as if he is a power hitter.
The point I tried to make in my very first comments in this fan post is that for the rest of this season, barring some miraculous waiver deal, the middle infield we see now, including Izturis (and including Kennedy) is what the Cardinals must rely on. I don’t say that to tout Cesar but rather to point out that, even though he is a very weak hitter, he was, as you wrote in your posts earlier today, the best shortstop alternative the Cardinals could add last winter, and whatever else the team does, they will have to win with him in the mix. Ryan can add value as a backup, of course, and he could add value in that role next year, but by then the Cards need to replace him, as well as Izturis and Miles, in SS appearances, with a player can play that position very well and who is a better hitter than any of the three. But that’s next year.
by CardsWin on Aug 1, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to type
while being spanked, eh?
by siddfynch on Jul 30, 2008 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
is the pope catholic?
do bears crap in the woods?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jul 30, 2008 4:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is Edmonds Catholic or is he a Cub?
Is Ballpark Village a ballpark, or a village, or just a puddle of muddy water?
by CardsWin on Jul 30, 2008 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i might trade izturis to the dodgers if we could get vin scully
victim of the sixties
by victim of the sixties on Jul 30, 2008 5:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Aaron Miles
Have we completely forgotten that Aaron Miles is hitting over .300 this year and still can not find himself a consistent spot in the lineup even with Cesar and Brendan hitting around .230 combined. I simply can not imagine why Tony has not handed the starting short stop job to Miles yet. We need that bat in the lineup.
Personally I would trade Cesar Iztruis to the Dodgers for a hot cup of coffee and I don’t even like coffee. Trade him DFA him or just flat out cut him I don’t care but get Aaron Miles and his .300 average in the lineup every day.
by BethelRedbird on Jul 30, 2008 6:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
This again.
Izturis is a bad player. Statistically, he’s been a bit better in the field and about a wash at the plate. He costs more money than Brendan Ryan. How is it a good decision to spend more money than you have to, in a situation where you’re dealing with essentially the same commodity. It’s not a good business decision period.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 30, 2008 8:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
commodity...followed by a question mark
come one rbn…it’s basic grammar…get your head out of your ass…
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 30, 2008 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am so glad I am not the only person who talks to himself
when commenting on blogs.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 30, 2008 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just can't wait
Until this fanpost pops up again when (if) Izturis hits another home run, or goes on a luke-warm hitting streak. If people don’t agree with you, I guess all you can do is try and shove it down their throats by arguing until you are blue in the face. I honestly wonder if CardsWin is really a fan of Izturis, or if he just enjoys the commotion he stirs up, like westcoastbirdwatcher.
Imagine what it would be like if I started a new fanpost each time Izturis goes 0-for the night, or when he boots a ball, or when Ryan laces a couple extra base hits. VEB would become a pissing match over two mediocre players!
by Ray Lankford on Jul 31, 2008 9:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Comparing
Izturis and Ryan’s performances from this season seems as pointless as arguing which is the greater comedic talent – Carrottop or Pauly Shore. Who cares? You shouldn’t spend too much money to see either. There are better options to be found if you are willing to pay a little.
At least in Ryan’s case, his performance is offset by the fact he is a low cost option. Izturis, as defensively solid as he has been, is the equivalent of spending $30 to see Carrottop.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 31, 2008 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did I miss something?
Granted, CardsWin did it in a sarcastic way, but it looked to me like he was abdicating the fact that neither of our current SS are worth a bag of batting practice baseballs. I agree that he has been the loudest trumpeter for Izturis on VEB, but that wasn’t really going on in this fanpost.
The money comparisons are fairly silly this far down the path. This past offseason Ryan was a completely unproven commodity. Who the hell would have backed up Ryan without Izturis? Would you have advocated D’angelo Jimenez or Brian Barden or Aaron Miles as the everyday SS if Ryan didn’t pan out? That would have been crazy. $2.5M is a very small amount of money for some minor insurance.
Izturis has been worse than should have been expected, but so has Ryan. The Cards still don’t have a valid replacement at the position. They have no minor league depth until you finally get to maybe Kozma. They are just as bad at 2B, and that is limiting them from even considering Miles as the everyday SS.
Until the Cards have some real depth at the MIF positions, they are going to probably have to shell out some money for mid-range veterans at those positions. Lucky us, we can continue to have these same squabbles for the next few years.
by etp_stl on Aug 1, 2008 6:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for understanding the point of this post
It is obvious that neither current SS (nor Miles, who really isn’t a SS at all) is adequate as a starting SS for a contending team in this era. We don’t need to belabor the statistics.
As for my initial comment in the very beginning seeming “sarcastic”, I didn’t mean it to be at all. I meant it as friendly irony.
Azruavatar’s strident criticisms of my comments are ironic, too, in light of the congruence between my comments and his own from several months ago:
“Finding a viable alternative to Brendan Ryan both next year and in the future would be ideal.
“Premier shortstops don’t hit the free agent market often and that’s not an option I’d want to rely on if I were Mozeliak. The farm system lacks a slam-dunk option.”
FROM Still short a shortstop by azruavatar on Nov 30, 2007
“The team would be wise to try and cobble together some kind of deal with their seeming excess in the outfield and on the mound to try and make a deal at either SS or 2B because things could get worse in a hurry. It’s the most glaring weakness for the Cardinals right now and there doesn’t appear to be any internal improvements available in the near term.”
FROM Wrong Up The Middle by azruavatar Apr 25, 2008
Compare those remarks by Az with my own remarks to start this fan post:
“It is becoming increasingly clear that Brendan Ryan should remain a backup player. He’s only two years younger than Cesar, and Brendan has not done any better with the bat than Izturis. In fact, their hitting stats are very similar, except Ryan doesn’t even have one home run, and his ratio of strikeouts to walks is not nearly as good as Cesar’s; and his fielding is not as consistently excellent, so actually Cesar has played better in the field and at bat.”
It’s peculiar that Az would argue so vehemently with that.
For example, he attacks my comment that “Brendan has not done any better with the bat than Izturis,” first by displaying the OPS for both players, which are .005 apart, then, as if he has disproven what I said, he adds, “That looks like the same player to me.” Well, yes, that was my essential point when I wrote initially, “their hitting stats are very similar”. What was there to argue about?
Az also attacks my comment that "actually Cesar has played better in the field and at bat" by declaring, “I’m saying that statement and the ones you make prior to it are exaggerations or false.” In fact, what I stated was neither untrue nor exaggerated. I didn’t tout Cesar’s hitting and fielding as “far better” or “vastly superior” or any such thing. I just stated the fact; Cesar’s stats are better on both counts, albeit only very slightly so (the strikeout to walk ratio gives Cesar the edge with the bat; fielding consistency gives Cesar the edge with the glove).
Thank you, etp_stl, for understanding that my point was not to argue the relative merits of Ryan and Izturis but rather to point out that while the two true shortstops on the team are both inadequate, the team will nonetheless have to rise or fall with them, since there is nothing on the market the Cards can acquire that would be worth the cost. Heck, even the Dodgers, whose fans, sportswriters, and announcers loved Cesar when he was there, might not have wanted him back, even with Furcal on the mend for a few more weeks….
by CardsWin on Aug 2, 2008 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For someone who has nothing more to say to me
you sure seem to talk about me in your posts a lot. I wish you’d be mature enough to have an actual discussion rather than these oblique, backhanded remarks in other comments. It’s admittedly frustrating.
by azruavatar on Aug 3, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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