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Around SBN: Mets Trade Ryan Church For Jeff Francoeur

Game 107 Open Thread -- July 27, 2008

Adam1_tiny by chuckb on in News Comment 352 comments

lohse

santana

12-2, 3.35

8-7, 3.05
Who is this Santana guy? Seriously. It wasn’t that long ago where he was widely regarded as the best starter in the majors, then he’s traded to New York of all places, and has, ostensibly, fallen under the radar. He’s having a good season, to be sure, but it seems to be remarkably un-Santana-like. He has a 3.05 ERA but only a 3.77 FIP. Kyle Lohse’s is better (3.60). And Santana has moved from the "Homer-Dome" to a very pitcher-friendly ballpark. He’s "only" striking out 7.79 batters per nine. His average, coming into this season, for his career was 9.50 K/9. His BB/9, though still good at 2.47 is the highest since 2003. His HR/9 is higher than his career average and his WHIP is the highest it’s been since 2002 – and it’s not like his BABIP is out of line w/ his career norms (.294 vs. .287).

Don’t get me wrong – he’s still a very good pitcher and certainly better than anyone we’ve got in our rotation right now. Maybe he’s feeling a little pressure from the big contract. Another explanation is that he did turn 29 and maybe he’ll continue to be a very good pitcher, but the days of him being an elite starter may be behind him. Who knows?

I’m hoping that last night’s victory and Pujols’ blast last night give the team a little momentum to turn this ship around. The pen has given up a 9th or 10th inning homerun in 5 of the last 6 games. With the trade deadline looming, I’m hoping that all the "Wainwright to closer" stuff is simply posturing to get the price tag for Fuentes, Sherrill, or Street down some.

C’mon Boys! It’d be nice to end this week w/ a series victory and Lohse is pitching as well as anybody!

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Strikouts are fascist

Santana has decided to adopt the Duncan democratic philosophy of pitching: throw more groundballs. His GB% is up from 38% last season (and 38.3% for his career) to 44% in 2008. Hopefully, some of these grounders snake through the Metropolitan infield for base knocks this afternoon on Long Island.

Coincidentally, Lohse’s GB% is up from 36.9% last season (and 41.6% for his career) to 48.3% under the democratic tutelage of David Duncan. His K/9 has fallen off as well to 4.69 from a career average of 5.57.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 1:06 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hey buddy

re: I’m hoping that all the “Wainwright to closer” stuff is simply posturing to get the price tag for Fuentes, Sherrill, or Street down some.

Actually, despite our conversation earlier on another thread, I totally agree with you on this. I’m only for Waino as the last resort for the bullpen. Fuentes is fun to watch, I’ll say that. Who is the best among the three you named, I don’t know…...but I’ll take any of the three.

Going out for a few hours. I hope I can catch the last few innings…....or do I? Let’s hope a little positive momentum has returned to the Cards.

by ccthemovieman on Jul 27, 2008 1:12 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This thread is lacking
Some lucky haiku action
Hopefully this helps

by notmorganfreeman on Jul 27, 2008 1:13 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In seventh inning
Pujols bomb only good news
One more series lost

by chuckb on Jul 27, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

After a great ab from Ryan making Santana throw 6 pitches

we see 2 pitches and make 3 outs…

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 1:15 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep, 8 pitches in the first inning.

Not good. They are apparently not going to make Santana work for it.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yea

need to be more patient. both pens are down, make him throw seems a good plan

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jul 27, 2008 1:16 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Anyone else with Extra Innings having trouble finding the game?

I am, unfortunately, stuck at work and following on Gameday. But my fiance is at home and wondering why he cannot get the game. Anyone know what is going on?

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by ChiTown CardFan on Jul 27, 2008 1:16 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i couldnt find it either

i take your signatures and use them as away messages

by ihavebadknees on Jul 27, 2008 1:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

coming through as game 11 for me

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jul 27, 2008 1:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

are you on direct tv?

i take your signatures and use them as away messages

by ihavebadknees on Jul 27, 2008 1:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by ChiTown CardFan on Jul 27, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i have direct tv also

and cant find it

i take your signatures and use them as away messages

by ihavebadknees on Jul 27, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the schedule doesnt have it listed

so i guess we are SOL

i take your signatures and use them as away messages

by ihavebadknees on Jul 27, 2008 1:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Mets broadcast is terrible.

They have no idea who is playing where, what the lineup looks like … it is like the whole broadcast crew came to the park 15 min. before game time.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 1:17 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Some people may not like Dan an Al, but I think they are as good as any teams group and better than most.

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think anyone you listen to daily will sound stale after a while

but i still think al is inane and provides very little real insight, especially for an ex-player.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jul 27, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, I am not a fan of Dan and Al either, but they are better than this Mets group.

There are some really good ones around the league (Brenneman in Cincy, Scully in LA) that really make watching the game enjoyable.

This Met’s group wouldn’t be so bad if Hernandez was not the color guy that had to comment on everything. Their announcer is actually not horrible, but Hernandez is just an idiot and feels he needs to exhibit is lack of intelligence on nearly every pitch.

I don’t understand when the definition of “color guy” went from someone that knows more than me and explains the details of the game to a “colorful character.” I wish we would go back to the former, rather than the latter, definition.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

HC

You said this:

And Santana has moved from the “Homer-Dome” to a very pitcher-friendly ballpark.

But it looks to me like the “Homer-Dome” and Shea have very comparable multi-year park factors, for what that’s worth.

by jdub176 on Jul 27, 2008 1:18 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ventilation

That’s just because they rig it so the fans blow in while the visitors are at the bat and out while the Twinkies are up.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

3-0 dp

a very nice present

i take your signatures and use them as away messages

by ihavebadknees on Jul 27, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

18 pitches in the first

Hopefully we get some groundball outs early in the count from the Mets’ batsmen next inning.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 1:26 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thank you delgado

They say I look like yadier molina

by ANDYAK47 on Jul 27, 2008 1:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ball 2 was a strike

right down the middle

i take your signatures and use them as away messages

by ihavebadknees on Jul 27, 2008 1:28 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he is batting 9th i believe

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 1:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, the Mets broadcast made a big deal out of the fact he was not playing

but then they showed him playing center. They also showed the pitcher batting 9th. Basically, do not believe anything from the Mets broadcasters today. They are just guessing.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 1:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Only 5 outs into it

But, Santana and CC have similar M.O.’s, to be sure. Hopefully, we can muster some offense toward the end of Santana’s outing.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 1:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He has only thrown 18 pitches.

There may not be an end to Santana’s outing.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 1:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's the problem with guys like Santana and Sabathia

You want to preach for players to work the count, but those guys throw strikes, so if they try to work a count they just end up in 0-2 or 1-2 holes. The only way to beat guys like this is with talent trumping talent.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 27, 2008 1:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Class Catch 22

You’re damned if you swing, damned if you don’t.

Won’t it be nice to have a pair of aces that other clubs’ fans have the same sentiment about? (Crossing fingers, praying that Carp and Wainwright come back healthy and effective.)

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 1:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep

Can’t wait for Carp and Waino back and hopefully healthy

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 27, 2008 1:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's just what Troy Glaus is

hot streaks and cold streaks

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 27, 2008 1:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was off the plate.

Pretty far actually. It was the right call. Lohse was nibbling.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 1:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

High pitch count

Not good. The weary ‘pen will be thrown to the lions again in this contest.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 1:42 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love Izturis' glove and all

but these automatic outs are driving me insane!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 1:47 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Middling Middle Infielders

The problem is that we don’t get much from either second or short. You just can’t sacrifice “O” for “D” at two positions in the NL. It gives us three black holes in the lineup with the pitcher.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 1:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

6 pitches that inning for Santana

24 total.

Like they want him to throw a complete game.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 1:47 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lohse is gonna have to get through 7 today somehow

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 1:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At this rate

Santana could get through 9 innings with less than 90 pitches thrown.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 1:48 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and it was so close

at least they got together to make the call

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 1:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Speed kills

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 1:52 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tough AB by Wright

We need a couple of these.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 1:54 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I sure would

he can’t hit one out if they walk him. I am tired of Delgado too

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 1:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

dang

if only Skippy had got it to Ryan on the fly

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 1:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think they were trying to

Molina set up way outside there but Lohse left it too close

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 1:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Too close or too up?

Were they hoping for a harmless grounder to second, but left it up, allowing Delgado to lift it in the air for the sacrifice fly to CF?

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well the replay showed Molina in the outside batters box and reaching back to the plate

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 2:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Watching on Gameday at work

So, I defer to you. Poor execution by Lohse. Now, a 2-run hole versus Johan. That’s a tough one to dig out of…

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Reply on Gameday

He got too much of the plate and left it up. Poor pitch.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Man o man

It is like we are sleepwalking out there today.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 2:00 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I sure am happy that the umpire made the right call

on Pujols’ tag at first base.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 2:00 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that was a damn close play

wouldn’t you agree we have seen a lot worse umping than that lately?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"I'm picking up on your sarcasm"

"A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while."- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

by CurtainCall on Jul 27, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how could you not have that feeling?

we look very bad

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is why Lohse is definitely not an Ace

he’s been a good #2 this year, but an ace is a pitcher you can count on to save your bullpen in a game like this. Lohse is not that pitcher

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 27, 2008 2:07 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

WTF?

Is it his fault Pujols and Ludwick made two awful defensive plays that extended the inning 3 extra batters?

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ryan should have handled the throw from center

Don’t forget that one. It would have ended the inning with no runs scored.

by jdub176 on Jul 27, 2008 2:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hesitate to even call him a #2.

He is a 4 that is having a good year. A Suppan type pitcher in my mind.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

De factor ace

He’s not someone you shell out $15M/year to as a pitcher, but he hasn’t pitched that badly today. He’s more a #3 in the NL and today he’s pitching like that.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

De facto*

...not “de factor.” Nice typing.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I never thought he was an "ace" he is however our "ace" for the time being. (Until wednesday hopefully)

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 2:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To what?

Santana has thrown 23 out of 33 pitches for strikes. That is about 70%. He is a great pitcher hitting his spots. We have to hope for some mistakes and that we can capitalize on them.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That guy in the stands looked like Flores.

"A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while."- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

by CurtainCall on Jul 27, 2008 2:11 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We could only be so lucky

...to have Flores in the bleachers instead of our ‘pen.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe we should switch them and see how the fan does out of the pen

"A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while."- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

by CurtainCall on Jul 27, 2008 2:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

couldn't hurt

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There is a bright side if the Cards can't win this one

I only had them winning one of these games in Azru’s poll anyway,

Rahter selfish of me , I know. You have to look on the bright side sometimes

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:12 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OT

but how in the world can MLBTraderumors be right? The Rays have 4 untouchable in the minor leagues? If you play in the same division as the Yanks and Sawx, don’t you have to be willing to move at least some of your premium prospects when you really have a chance?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:17 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Some Rays prospects are so good, that listing them untouchable is correct

I mean, alot of those guys are about as close as you can get to bonafide aces and all stars.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 27, 2008 2:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

they are great

but man, that is what you call willpower after this many years of losing ball

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yadier, if only you had more powah

that would’ve been a 2006ian blat

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 27, 2008 2:18 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Would like to see Glaus tag there.

Tatis was lolly-gagging out there and in no position to come up throwing. Since we are struggling, you like to see some aggressiveness.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 2:19 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Side Note

Does anyone have the scouting report on Perdomo? 24-year-old set-up guy? Is this a good return for Reyes, all factors considered?

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:19 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

all things considered - yes.

++ Fastball, a good work in progress slider

has the potential to be a good bullpen arm

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 27, 2008 2:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A potential reliever **plus cash**

Maybe that’ll allow us to extend Lohse. (Sarcasm.)

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A lot of teams have cash added

I recall even the Yankees receiving cash in a trade a couple of years ago

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know, but Cash?

Why not just throw on a scrap pile prospect that has the same value? It would make us all feel better about that trade. Because as it is, I personally don’t feel good about that trade at all.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 2:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Scary

Who else is there? Furcal, and….

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am with you

that is getting to be ridiculous

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was tempted to go along with that huge trade proposal going around yesterday

if only that it would have got us an upgrade at SS. That is impressed I am with his bat.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Anyone with eyes

You don’t even need a calculator, one would think. Surely, just by watching the games, Mo can see that Cesar Izturis should not be penciled into a big league lineup.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Izturis is so perfect in the #9 slot

It’s like Little League, where you just hoped that your #9 hitter would somehow walk to extend the inning.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My bad

I’m doing homework and paying half-attention to Gameday. That’s twice I’ve screwed up. TLR must be playing the splits with Cesar versus lefties and Skippy versus lefties.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, that's just about the ball game

with the way we are hacking at Santana

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 27, 2008 2:27 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No

I wanted to see him there this year, instead of Izturis. He’s cheaper. Plus, we could see what we have and upgrade as need be. Now, we are stuck with four MIFers on the roster, none of whom are particularly good with a bat in their hands.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hear ya on that.......

But Iz2 is not really that expensive in baseball terms his contract has zero impact on the books really.

by ICbirdfan on Jul 27, 2008 2:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

That was my point. See what we have in him early this season by installing him as the starting SS. I understand that Izturis was an insurance policy, and it worked with Ryan’s ST injury. But now, with the Miles/AK/Izturis/Ryan hydra on the roster, we just have a glut unskilled offensive players on the roster. Now we know, and moves should be made accordingly to offer us a better bench for the home stretch.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

12 outs to get 4 runs

They say I look like yadier molina

by ANDYAK47 on Jul 27, 2008 2:30 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Does Lohse make it through 6?

Will TLR keep him in too long (i.e. into the 7th)?

Stay tuned for the answers to this and more on MLB Extra Innings!

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:30 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bullpen help

Right now, we need help in the ‘pen desperately. We should dump AK and install Miles, allowing for an additional bat on the bench. Plus, the market is not very good for SS’s.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For next year you are talking?

I am not sure a SS is in the works for this year.

For this year, I think the priority is a closer. Perhaps the closer is already on the team, but that needs to be the top priority.

For next year, I would agree with you (assuming we have some clarity at closer). The middle infield has to be at the top of the list.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 2:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ok

but who’s going to tell mo?

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jul 27, 2008 2:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

we need to trade for a plus SS prospect. Ryan can hold the fort for a while, but we need a SS that is going to be around for a while.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 2:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

amen, looks like not much in the pipeline for some years

still wonder if the dodgers might part with the roach or dewitt (perfect match eh) after getting blake

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jul 27, 2008 2:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

It will feel good to get to Atlanta if the Cubs and Brewers could both lose today, so we dont lose any ground heading into the series that we get Carp back

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 2:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By the time Mo gets off the pot

This race is going to be over. They needed a bat last month, a closer this month. It’s getting to be a little late in the day to make a meaningful impact. What a maddening club.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 27, 2008 2:38 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

3 GB

We’re only three games out of the Wild Card and Division races. I don’t blame Mo for waiting to see what he would have from Carp and Wainwright before going trade crazy. The same goes for the ‘pen. TLR is just as accountable for managing the late innings. Why he continues to hand Franklin the ball in the ninth is beyond me. A closer this week, with Carp and Wainwright returning, puts us in a good position to make a run at the postseason, IMO.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

even if carp and waino are back

this team still needs another bat – either in front of or behind pujols and a bullpen upgrade. those two things are independent of returns from injury.

by rlgosnell on Jul 27, 2008 2:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, I understand that

trading for Burnett or Washburn or Wolf would have been premature at best. But look at HoustonCardinal’s analysis from this morning. It’s easy to see that the team’s batting average has been inflated by facing crappy starters. We missed Sheets on the first turn against Milwaukee. We missed Zambrano against Chicago. Oswalt is no longer an ace. Etc, etc.

The front office appears to have bought in to the hype a bit too much. Tony is right: the team needs a substantial bat. Unfortunately, the only place to park one is at second base or short. There’s a thin market for those guys, but the fact that we haven’t DFA’ed one of the middle infielders is pathetic. They need to understand sunk costs and get over them. Cut your losses before they destroy the team.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 27, 2008 2:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maddening situation for sure

this wait for 09 business needs to be put in perspective. which additions are really going to matter and putting so much on one guy, e.g., rasmus, is a risky bet, as in no guarantees he’ll play 150 games. they are/were in contention this year and may or may not be in the same or better position next year. i’m not into blowing the entire future, but unless you have a perfect crystal ball, might want to maximize the chance you have. for me, boils down to just having some qualms about this “we know 09, 10, etc will be better because whatever fraction of young players turn out to be ML regulars” that seems to pervade the front office.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jul 27, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There is no guarantee any player will play 150 games

Many players face injuries, which is why multi-year contracts are so risky. Look at Carp. Right after we extend him, he misses 270 games. And he’s a pitcher. Holding onto Rasmus is a perfectly acceptable decision. I would even say that it is a very good decision. I’d rather have someone young and talented under our control (i.e. cheap) for years to come than to give him up Holliday or some other rental. It’s not a trade-Rasmus-or-win-this-year proposition. We have received very good OF production this season. We can make a playoff run by bolstering the ‘pen and cutting lose the above-mentioned sunk cost of AK while bolstering the bench.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Flores

Just like Friday. Here’s the ball, Randy, since the game is over. Throw 45 pitches and give up as many runs as you feel like.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hopefully Randy can go 3

and hopefully these are the last 3 he ever goes in a Cardinal uni

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh boy

That elusive thing called “momentum” has avoided us again

"A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while."- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

by CurtainCall on Jul 27, 2008 2:42 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which is disheartening when this IS your best pitcher

At least until Wednesday.

"A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while."- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

by CurtainCall on Jul 27, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol....

Call it…time of death….1:43 central time

The wind in here just shifted 360 degrees!!!
-Mike Shannon

by cardsphan04 on Jul 27, 2008 2:43 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

at least Lohse is getting the bad start out of the way when we didnt have much of a chance anyway

every pitcher has one of these every now and then

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 2:43 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+5

really this loss was inevitable after last night and Lohse was due for a bad outing

They say I look like yadier molina

by ANDYAK47 on Jul 27, 2008 2:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

true...

we just need to get out of new york also, I am looking forward to atlanta

The wind in here just shifted 360 degrees!!!
-Mike Shannon

by cardsphan04 on Jul 27, 2008 2:44 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Those are very win-able games. Hopefully we can take 3 out of 4.

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ugh

I was really hoping the wall wouldn’t be calling for my head today

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:44 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

3 run bomb for the Marlins

Jacobs

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 2:45 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sweet

They say I look like yadier molina

by ANDYAK47 on Jul 27, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

atleast we got that going for us

which is good, definatly good

The wind in here just shifted 360 degrees!!!
-Mike Shannon

by cardsphan04 on Jul 27, 2008 2:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

pillow,

go with the pillow

The wind in here just shifted 360 degrees!!!
-Mike Shannon

by cardsphan04 on Jul 27, 2008 2:45 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

here comes a walk

They say I look like yadier molina

by ANDYAK47 on Jul 27, 2008 2:46 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Im just happy it's not a no hitter

The wind in here just shifted 360 degrees!!!
-Mike Shannon

by cardsphan04 on Jul 27, 2008 2:46 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rain please

End my misery

"A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while."- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

by CurtainCall on Jul 27, 2008 2:47 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now that is what you call staring down a HR

uh….foul ball

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:48 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

haha

cant help but laugh a little

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 2:48 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah.

Not everything is going right for the Mets.

I guess Santana is still getting used to this hitting (+running) thing.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 2:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've been watching for about 15 min

and Jay Randolph has already gotten 5 different people’s name wrong. He’s really difficult to listen too.

O and Randy Flores is a terrible pitcher.

by azruavatar on Jul 27, 2008 2:49 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maybe this is the day they decide

that Garcia will be the second LHRP?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How Flores made this year's club is beyond me

Did he sign a multi-year deal after ‘06 or something?

by bgh on Jul 27, 2008 2:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes he did

a 2 year 1.8 M one after ‘06

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maybe this is a good thing...

we could get flores sent back down

The wind in here just shifted 360 degrees!!!
-Mike Shannon

by cardsphan04 on Jul 27, 2008 2:49 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He can't be sent down

He’s on an ML contract. He has to be DFAed, then clear waivers. Really, though, he needs to be retired.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 27, 2008 2:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

retired the way a horse is retired?

that is harsh dude

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He is a "veteran"???

ESPN Management (CT): Umm…...what does this have to do with the Red Sox and Yankees?
SportsNation Jerry Crasnick: Management, Let’s take a break with the sarcasm, OK?

by Smokin Turkeys on Jul 27, 2008 2:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

DFA Flores already

He is the worst, I can’t believe he is still on the team

by riotmute on Jul 27, 2008 2:49 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it's cause of what he did a couple years ago

tony loves him

The wind in here just shifted 360 degrees!!!
-Mike Shannon

by cardsphan04 on Jul 27, 2008 2:50 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Please keep those kind of references

for another board. This is a family blog!!!

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jul 27, 2008 2:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am turning

this game off. This game, plus these announcers on KSDK, are making me ill. Jay Randolph needs to retire.

Rarely will I ever choose a nap over a baseball game. Today, the nap wins.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jul 27, 2008 2:50 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You know

it might help if this game gets rained out and we lose. At least it will preserve out bullpen.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 2:50 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

could you blame him?

much more interesting than this inning. If I was listening on the radio and he wasn’t telling a story I would really be PO’d

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hehe

The wind in here just shifted 360 degrees!!!
-Mike Shannon

by cardsphan04 on Jul 27, 2008 2:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bea Arthur?

They would have made a cute couple.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jul 27, 2008 2:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I gotta say, that was the most exciting double in baseball

But no matter how ugly this game gets, it’s still just one loss. Not that comforting, but still….

by BTown Birds fan on Jul 27, 2008 2:51 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think it funny,

the fact that Mike hampton led to david wright being with the mets

The wind in here just shifted 360 degrees!!!
-Mike Shannon

by cardsphan04 on Jul 27, 2008 2:52 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

p.s.

Jose Reyes is really not a smart baseball player.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 2:52 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but he is exciting.

"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean

by Molina4MVP on Jul 27, 2008 2:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the most exciting

or so i’m told after the eleventh replay of a yankees-red sox game

by barry whiteteeth on Jul 27, 2008 2:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Beat me to it!

I was just going to say that.

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 27, 2008 2:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nope, he is not.

But, I would take him anyday. He loves the game, plays hard, has fun … kind of player that makes your team better.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 2:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

until he pouts

because delgado couldn’t pick a terrible throw and reyes gets an error and throws his glove to the ground

by barry whiteteeth on Jul 27, 2008 2:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wouldn't

He’s overrated and would thus be overpriced.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 2:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How is he overrated?

How many SS bring what he brings to a team?

There is a few, but not many in the NL.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well

rollins, hanley, furcal when helthy

and for giggles…julio lugo…

by barry whiteteeth on Jul 27, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tejada, too.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nah, I don't think I would agree with Tejada.

He brings a whole different skill set. I know his defense has improved this year, but he is little more than a slugger. A slugger at short is great, but I would take Reyes over Tejada.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 3:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well, right

they have individual skill, but in total, he bring about the same amount to the team.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 3:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

another thing about Reyes

he tends to go on pretty huge cold streaks,

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 3:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

my fantasy hurts because of him

by barry whiteteeth on Jul 27, 2008 3:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right, I will give you those 3 (not lugo)

Hanley is the best of that group, but all of those have similar characteristics as Reyes does. Speed, good arm, a little power (more in Hanley’s case), personality … Reyes is in that group. He may be at the bottom of that group, but he is still a very valuable commodity.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no,

but him and wright look marvelous in those ads for abercrombie and fitch

The wind in here just shifted 360 degrees!!!
-Mike Shannon

by cardsphan04 on Jul 27, 2008 2:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

why not?

you are up 7-0 with Santana on the hill. This is the time to be going all out

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

did you see him almost get out on that play at home

when it was 0 to 0 and they threw to 2b? His being an idiot isn’t a one time thing.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 2:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no I did not see that one

but man everyone makes boneheaded plays

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 2:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that wasn't bonehead.

it was lazy, and his head was completely out of the game. Great players with some smarts never do things like that.

Since you didn’t see it, his run wouldn’t have counted at home if we got the guy out at second because he was practically walking into home plate. And the point is that the “boneheaded plays” happen once a week for him. Believe me, I live in New York and watch way too much Mets baseball for my own good.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 3:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I will not argue with you then

I can be convinced easily. Especially when it is a Met

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Question:

why won’t this team DFA players??? Guys like Flores, Izturis & Kennedy should have been gone months ago. Is there a reason why the Cards refuse to DFA guys?? Every other team in baseball are not scared to DFA a guy who is stinking up the joint…big contract or not!

by KYCards on Jul 27, 2008 2:55 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

mets dfa's brandon knight

i bet he could help us, he looked good after the first inning

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jul 27, 2008 2:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Completely agree

It’s inexplicable. If someone thinks it’s the “Cardinal Way” to keep junk on the roster just because they have a two-year contract, then they’re fools. My first memories of the team were in the early- mid-Seventies. Those teams were awful for a reason.

The corollary to that is don’t sign mediocre players to multi-year deals because they are a good “value.” That’s why we have/had Kennedy, Looper, Encarnacion, Piniero, Eckstein.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 27, 2008 2:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kennedy

really isn’t that bad. It’s just trendy to say he should be DFA’d.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

are you serious?

I think a lot of us are spoiled by a winning tradition. Check out some other MLB rosters when you get the chance. Not to mention, I’m sure if we DFA’d him, he’d be picked up in an instant. I’m not saying he’s that good at all, but we can’t just go around releasing all of these guys signed to million+ deals. That does add up, you know?

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 3:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He is not really that good either

and there are probably players in our minor league system that could do what he does for us much more cheaply.

by Egyptian on Jul 27, 2008 3:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

might as well dfa iz2 too

he hits worse then ak

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jul 27, 2008 3:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There's a difference there

between Kennedy and Izturis. Shortstop is more demanding position, and a harder one to fill with a quality hitter. I would be okay with him if second were more adequately stocked. I would also be okay with Miles/Ryan at second if the SS could both field and hit.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 27, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

don’t disagree, but as has been said many times, they have sunk costs. they need to get a grip on quality and how they are going to prioritize their spending in the winter if they don’t know which position players in the system will help them; ST really isn’t the best way to judge that.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jul 27, 2008 3:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

all the cool kids do it

we’re all dfa’ing kennedy.

succumb to the peer pressure

by barry whiteteeth on Jul 27, 2008 3:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, then I was ahead of the trend

Because I’ve been saying it since he was signed.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 27, 2008 3:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He had a good first month of the season

and had a decent three week run up until about 2 weeks ago. Other than that , has he done anything while a Cardinal, or am I just remembering wrong?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's terrible

though he’s actually made himself into a pretty good defensive 2b. Offensively, few are worse.

by chuckb on Jul 27, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You just can't give up the offense

from the middle infield entirely—especially with the pitcher batting eighth. It just destroys a third of the innings. It’s like we only get up to bat 2/3 as many the times as the opposition.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 27, 2008 3:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm just saying

that if half of the people on here had their way, most of our roster would be gone by now via DFA.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 3:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

check out some archives.

you’ll see many a name on there.

Kennedy, Iz2, Izzy, Flores, Villone, Barton . . . haha, honestly, the list is absurd.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 27, 2008 3:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hooray for my signature!

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 28, 2008 12:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I bet Ludwick hits a meaningless bomb here

gonna need more franklins to get through this one.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 27, 2008 2:55 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

now

that was a slap in the face

The wind in here just shifted 360 degrees!!!
-Mike Shannon

by cardsphan04 on Jul 27, 2008 2:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

False Jay! False

The wind in here just shifted 360 degrees!!!
-Mike Shannon

by cardsphan04 on Jul 27, 2008 2:55 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

boy

the look on flores face when he left the mound. i agree he is not performing, but you know dfa is running through his mind and his baseball life as well. sad, he once helped us a lot (i.e., before his 2 year deal was signed)

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jul 27, 2008 2:56 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ok

that was a nice play…oh hamburgers

by barry whiteteeth on Jul 27, 2008 2:56 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs