Why the time to trade Pujols is coming upon us..
by KeepOnRolen on Jul 25, 2008 8:25 PM EDT
47 comments
I've been noodling on this the last couple of days.
It's an insane idea that would cause an outcry among a LOT of fans on here. It would be an extremely gutsy move for a new GM like Mo and it would frustrate a lot of people.
But I'm not so sure it's a bad idea.
Here's how I look at it:
Pujols will be 29 next year -- meaning we are probably coming to the end of his best years between the ages of 26 and 30 pretty soon. Furthermore, I'm inclined to think that with Pujols' nagging injuries, that he's one of those guys that has a tendency to age a bit faster than other ballplayers.
He's an incredible offensive threat, but he is not completely irreplaceable. He plays a position that has 3 players in the NLwho can put up the similar numbers (Howard, Berkman, Fielder.)
There's no denying that he's a fan favorite, and we are all blinded by the great moments he's had -- Lidge HR, game-winning HRs, etc. etc.
There are about 5 teams that would be willing to trade for Pujols -- Mets, Yankees, Red Sox, Angels or Dodgers.
Our glaring needs are 2 middle infielders, MAYBE an SP, and a reliever.
How about a trade scenario like this: Pujols to the Dodgers for SP Clayton Kershaw, CP Jonathan Broxton, SS Chin-Lung Hu.
We instantly have the BEST pitching prospect in the league, an incredible closer, and a glove-first middle infielder who is miles ahead of Ryan, Izturis, etc.
Mo would then not have to worry about signing a pitcher in the off-season, and go with Carp, Wainwright, Wells, Garcia, Pineiro/Boggs/Todd, then we could let Lohse walk, and not have to worry about throwing 8-9 mil. for a starting pitcher.
That means we could sign Mark Teixeira in the off-season, who is the same age as Pujols, and is a damn good 1st baseman.
Your 09 line-up is something like this:
C Molina, 1B Teixeira, 2B Miles/Ryan , 3B Glaus, SS Hu/Ryan , LF Ludwick, CF Rasmus, RF Ankiel
Your rotation:
SP Carpenter, SP Wainwright, SP Wellemeyer, SP Kershaw, SP Looper/Pineiro/Garcia
Now you can trade one of Looper, Pineiro, and Garcia, for a 2nd baseman.
Your bullpen features 3 excellent relievers -- 7th inning McClellan, 8th inning Perez, 9th inning Broxton. The trauma caused by Franklin/Izzy is nowhere to be seen.
Baseball is a business -- while we love Pujols, we can greatly improve the program at this point by trading him.
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Unfrotunately
When the attendance (and profits) drop by 1/3 next year, we can’t afford Teixeira anymore, nor anyone to back up our starters when 3 go on the DL at a time again.
by stlfan on Jul 25, 2008 8:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well..
It’s no longer a world in which a player stays with the team through his whole career. Just take a look at A-Rod and Garciaparra—they were traded in their primes, and neither team dropped off.
by KeepOnRolen on Jul 25, 2008 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ARod was being paid $10 Million
more than Pujols is now at a time when players’ values were significantly lower. You simply can’t compare the value of the two players’ contract. Pujols is worth 2 to 3 times what he’s paid. A Rod was paid so much that only a couple teams could afford him and the Rangers had to eat a bunch of the contract. They’re not even comparable.
by chuckb on Jul 25, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fan Favorite...
A-Rod wasn’t really an icon in Texas. He was always considered an overpaid productive player, but not a fan favorite. Plus, they got Soriano back (young 2B who was a hitter that was putting up good numbers at less cost, use the extra money to build a team). Garciaparra was a fan favorite, but they had Manny and Big Papi to step into the fan favorite role when he was traded. Ankiel would be the fan favorite to step in, but he isn’t the caliber of player as Manny or Big Papi, so there would be a different fan reaction.
by Jumsy on Jul 26, 2008 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume you want to trade the rights to have
Bob Gibson, Ozzie Smith, Lou Brock & Stan the Man to appear as Hall of Famers to another team as well?
by KYCards on Jul 25, 2008 8:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I know the guy is
having some trouble, but didnt A rod go through a similar situation? And what would have the Yankees said if they had traded him in 07? Big mistake…
Yadi swings and hits a high fly ball... Endy Chavez goes back, to the track, to the wall... ITS A GUNNER!! Yadi gives St. Louis the lead in the bottom of the eighth!
by Paulspike on Jul 25, 2008 8:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No offense
but 29 doesn’t mean his best years are over. A player with Pujols’ ability and swing has the ability to resist declining for another 6 or 7 years. Especially considering he’s not a speed guy, I wouldn’t expect his numbers to dwindle any time soon.
I really don’t think trading him will help the team.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jul 25, 2008 9:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If anything
It might be time to talk extension.
by nybirdfan on Jul 25, 2008 9:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1 - This fanpost wouldn't exist if Pujols was still raking.
As someone who makes reactionary posts like they are going out of style, I can definitely say this fanpost is entirely based off of the fact that Pujols is slumping right now.
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on Jul 25, 2008 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
This idea is completely nuts. Pujols is a franchise player. He is the same as Michael Jordan was to the Bulls. He can never be paid as much as he’s worth. Fortunately, I think, he won’t ask for $35 million a year. If we can re-sign him for $20-25 a year for another seven-eight years so he can retire a Cardinal, I’m fine with that. If he declines later, maybe we eat salary and move him. But he is nowhere near falling off as a slugger.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 26, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The drinking started early tonight.
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 25, 2008 10:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
its never early enough these days
i take your signatures and use them as away messages
by ihavebadknees on Jul 25, 2008 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Pujols
b/c he’s not getting any younger so we can sign Mark Teixeira (3 months younger than Pujols) to a 6 or 7 year contract?
Kershaw, Broxton, and Lu do not even come close to Pujols’ value on the market. Kershaw, Matt Kemp, James Loney and Chad Billingsley are getting closer but the Dodgers would never give up that much of their team for 1 player. The Cards simply can’t trade Pujols now. They could never get what he’s worth and would never accept what others would offer. No other team can afford him in terms of the talent he’s worth.
by chuckb on Jul 25, 2008 10:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s amazing how spoiled we are by Pujols.
by liam on Jul 26, 2008 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
just wow
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Jul 25, 2008 10:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If we do trade Pujols......
I want the entire Rays team and there entire farm system. And Tampa has to give us about 200 mill to give all of our new players contracts.
Even then I would have to think about it.
Yadi is my hero
by Big Phil on Jul 25, 2008 10:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
lol
Prospects are good. Especially when they aren't rushed.
by CraveCase on Jul 25, 2008 11:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The entire Rays team?
The entire Rays farm system is a lot better than the Cardinals team.
by KeepOnRolen on Jul 25, 2008 11:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe toss in the Arch to whomever takes Pujols. Might fetch say one-quarter of the Grand Canyon if the D-backs swing the deal.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Jul 25, 2008 11:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
do people forget this guy is playing with a tear in
the elbow or is it arm..at any rate the guy is hurt and is still a great player..
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Jul 25, 2008 11:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Trading Pujols is much more than trading just a great hitter...
It’s also trading away the leader and centerpiece of the team, as well as the icon that has become the symbol of the Cardinals for this generation. The fans would never forgive Mo for a move like that.
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it."- Rogers Hornsby
by redbirds8233 on Jul 25, 2008 11:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is a trade you make
on Baseball Mogul, not in real life.
I get what you’re going for, but good luck keeping the fan base if you did it.
by whopperman on Jul 26, 2008 2:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pujols is a ticking time bomb
His elbow will not hold up forever, and I don’t want to see 16 million on the dl so we can have an awful year, we could get loads of good young pitching for Albert, trade him to the angels, they have a ton of pitching and we could probably get a decent bat too.
Also, am I the only one who thinks that Albert may be overrated as a leader on the team? He seems to just be around the latin players on the team. I think Molina is the true leader of the team, but thats just my opinion. I think the right deal could be out there, and it would probably be for the best, because the chances of the cardinals giving him the money he wants, is very unlikely. Trade him and get value, because we could get a lot more than two draft picks for him. But thats just my opinion, and 1st isnt a hard position to find big numbers from.
Kyle Loshe... robbed of an All Star appearance, enough said.
by Ibeatanorexia06 on Jul 26, 2008 2:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Finally!
Exactly the point I’m trying to make.
by KeepOnRolen on Jul 26, 2008 3:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
I know it takes about 14 months for a pitcher to return from Tommy John. Anyone know how long it takes a hitter? It can’t be as long right? Pujols is signed through is age 31 season is he not? 2011 is an option year. I think he signed like a 8y 100m deal with 10m defered. Just checked Cotts that looks about right. So why not extend him on another 100m over 5 years defer more if poosible and take him through 2016? If he has to be shut down and misses a season that is a risk I would be willing to take.
Albert should retire a Cardinal and his statue should as big as Stan the Man’s.
by nybirdfan on Jul 26, 2008 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tommy John Surgery
I thought I remembered people saying last year that if Albert had surgery the week the year ended, he would not have missed any time this season (maybe April).
by stlfan on Jul 26, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
according to wikipedia
recovery is 6 months for a position player, so I guess he would have missed spring training but would have been available at roughly the start of April. He should really consider having it done after this season, especially if we miss the playoffs.
by MotherTruckinSteve on Jul 26, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't care about the leadership
we have no way of answering that question. I care about production and Albert’s production is unmatched in the big leagues. He might get hurt, yes and then we’d have $16 M on the DL, as we did for 2 weeks this year. But he’s worth 2 to 3 times what he’s paid. He’s worth 4 top-notch players from any club and they won’t give us that.
There might come a time to trade Pujols. We’re not anywhere close yet. He’s simply far too valuable.
by chuckb on Jul 26, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of 16 million being on the DL...
I see that Carp is making 14 this year, and it hasn’t turned those of you who frown it away from being a Cards fan, so why would 16 million be the straw that broke the camel’s back? You include Encarnacion and Mulder, you are well over the Pujols number. I don’t think you can make the argument that 16 million on the dl is too much. We’ve been through far worse.
by Jumsy on Jul 26, 2008 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Topic
Don’t have time to gather my thoughts, but this is the kind of contrarian thinking that a serious GM must consider if he aspires to build a great franchise. It’s also a very high risk move, so proceed with caution. First blush: Pujols adds lots of intangibles, in both fan excitement and team leadership. As much as I appreciate what the analytics might say, any decision has to factor those in as well. But I hope others smarter than me will weigh in with serious ideas of what kind of value we could get (as opposed to “the whole Rays farm system” comments). Realistic scenarios will naturally spark thoughtful reactions. Thanks for the post.
by Secret Weapon on Jul 26, 2008 10:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is the kind of contrarian thinking that a G.M. like Billy Beane
engages in. Why? Because no one in Oakland really cares about the A’s. The Cardinals are a completely different animal. Second in World Series championships. Best franchise in the National League. Gobs of history. A fanbase that extends from Florida to Nebraska. This is not the team by the Bay. This is the team that KMOX built over about 50 years. You simply don’t do something like this in real life if you want to have a financially viable franchise.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 26, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts
1) I would not make a trade involving Pujols.
2) If I did, I might want to ask for something like these:
Marlins get: Pujols
Cardinals get: Hanley Ramirez, Dan Uggla, Ricky Nolasco, +1 pitching prospect
Mariners get: Pujols
Cardinals get: Felix Hernandez, Brandon Morrow, +3 hiting prospects (SS, 2B, best prospect)
Rays get: Pujols
Cardinals get: Evan Longoria, Dioner Navarro, BJ Upton, Scott Kazmir (probably too much)
Red Sox get: Pujols
Cardinals get: Dustin Pedroia, Jacob Ellsbury, John Lester, Clay Bucholz, Justin Masterson
Blue Jays get: Pujols
Cardinals get: Roy Halladay, Vernon Wells, Alex Rios, +top pitching or MI prospect
by stlfan on Jul 26, 2008 11:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Damn
I really don’t like any of those deals—too many unknowns and possibly bad contracts involved in most of them. I like the Rays deal the best, but I think Garza would probably be a more realistic target. No way are they giving up Upton or Longoria however, so it would be a moot point.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 26, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would like the Rays deal
a lot better if instead of Navarro you could enter Price. Catching is not really a need.
That being said it wouldn’t matter, I couldn’t watch or care for Cardinal baseball for at least a few years if Pujols was ever traded. You just don’t do that kind of thing to your fans. Imagine how it would have felt if Musial had been traded in his prime. I am too young to have seen Musial play, and still the thought of that makes me sick. Now just multiply that feeling by 10 for the feeling I would get if the best player I have ever seen is traded from my team.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 26, 2008 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way to get market value for a player of his caliber.
Similar situation—the Lakers trying to trade Kobe Bryant last offseason. He’s literally untradeable because if you trade him, the other team has to give up so much that it’s no longer worth having the best player because you have nothing to surround him with.
Your trade proposal is crazy - If we didn’t get Kemp, Loney, and Billingsley with those three players we wouldn’t be getting value. Signing Teixeria is nuts - you’re going to trade Pujols because “his best years are over”, in your opinion, then sign a guy three months younger who’s never put up a season that’s better than Albert’s worst year to a long term deal? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Berkman is a good comparison for Albert, this season. Those other two guys aren’t nearly the hitter that Pujols is—they hit bunches of home runs, but don’t get on-base at a high rate and strike out a ton. His only good comparison this decade would be Barry Bonds.
The club should be looking at locking him up through the rest of his career at this point, if you want my honest opinion. If they extended his deal another 6 years at around $120 million dollars and backloaded the deal, Albert would be making less and less in terms of his overall market value each year until age 37. The club would have a cornerstone to build around for the next 10 years, and Pujols would have a guaranteed $150+ million in his pocket. It makes all around good sense to do that
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 26, 2008 1:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No
Nein. Nyet. Nuh-uh. No how. No way. I see what you’re saying—and there is a certain amount of sense to it, but no. Pujols is our Mang. He’s been loyal to us; we should be loyal to him. I wouldn’t say that about almost any other player, but Albert isn’t just any other player. He’s the face of our franchise and that type of player comes along only once in a generation, if that. Even if his home run totals never get to the level they once were (which I highly doubt), he’s been worth every penny they’ve paid him (lots more, in fact) and will continue to be. Keep Albert a Cardinal till he retires and enters the Hall Of Fame.
by rockin redbird on Jul 26, 2008 2:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Never
There is no replacing Pujols he can play as long as he wants
by bmoorelikealbert on Jul 26, 2008 4:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
blasphemy
I can’t believe this is even being discussed. Pujols should be a lifetime cardinal. He the mang!
Baseball-Cardinals
Football-Rams
College Sports-MU Tigers!
by clwxz5 on Jul 26, 2008 5:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't even imagine facing Pujols at bat
The very thought of it is terrifying
by bornin82 on Jul 26, 2008 6:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Food for thought
and props for having the guts to go against the grain and put it out there for discussion.
Hey, I’m for whatever puts us back in the World Series, whether it means keeping him or trading him. I also agree Yadi Molina is the most valuable player on the this team, and that’s no slam on AP. The catcher usually is the leader, anyway.
Interesting thread.
by ccthemovieman on Jul 26, 2008 7:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not a lot to say about this
other than I think it is the worst idea I’ve heard on here. I’d also like to give you props for having the sack for proposing this, but honestly, I think trading Pujols now wouldn’t be that dissimilar from the Sawx trading Babe Ruth. In your calculations for return players, you’d need to factor in the curse that would no doubt loom over the organization’s head for nearly a century to follow, so we would need to get a lot of jesters, clowns, and other various entertainers to keep us amused and interested during the decades in which this team doesn’t win the series and the team to whom we trade the best hitter of our generation does.
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Jul 26, 2008 9:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
As you can probally see byt he name I am as is every other cards fan would carry alberts jock for him after the game. As far as trading him I agree, youll never get the right amounts of value for him.Teams dont have enough at any level to give for him uinless they gave up their entire rotation and middle IF. Pujols is a Cardinal he signed for less than he couldve made do insure he stayed a Cardinal. A little loyalty please, and im sure alot of opinions have changed after a 5 hit game with the game winning homerun last night
by pujols_5 on Jul 27, 2008 10:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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