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Bullpen Decisions

Couple of quick housekeeping items: 1) That sweep was really, really heartbreaking and frustrating.  That said, it isn't license to say whatever you want on the game threads.  Those threads are starting to get ugly again and we'd like to prevent that. 2) I'd like your input here.

[LB EDIT: re the game threads ---- accepting defeat with reasonable grace is a sign of maturity. a depressingly large number of people are failing the test. the community can do without childish people and childish statements. clean it up, starting tonight, or i'll start banning people summarily.]

The Cardinals have been carrying 8 arms in the bullpen at times this season because they've been worn out.  I won't argue the need for another arm at times because it's largely a matter of opinion.  One thing that will require you to carry more arms, however, is when you carry pitchers who are bad.  Pitchers who can't retire major leaguers aren't really pitchers -- they're merely warm bodies.  Those warm bodies shorten an already weak bench that includes 4 light hitting middle infielders.  It's a cascading effect that the Cardinals ought to address.

I could lambaste Isringhausen for collapsing so badly this season. He's been nothing short of terrible and I suspect he wouldn't argue with that much.  It's been tough to watch as he just seems to fall apart.  He was, however, eminently effective last year and I remain unconvinced that anyone should have expected this collapse.  Why it has been so difficult to correct, I'm not sure but that's not the discussion I'd like to have today.

Ryan Franklin's another name ripe to be thrown under the bus.  He had a lot of backers in these parts after last season.  He posted some unsustainable numbers and it was hard to see past the 2-something ERA in April and May.  After being put in the closer's role, he was deemed as an acceptable, if mediocre closer by many.  His walk rate has come back to normal levels and the groundballs have greatly diminished since last year.  This was a forseeable collapse that the Cardinals could have avoided exacerbating.  Franklin's still a major leaguer -- just a middle reliever not a late inning guy.

Those two deserve a lot of blame for the failures of the bullpen this season. [I wrote this before Franklin blew yet another save -- yawn -- SSDD].  I'm sure they're competing their hardest -- this isn't a question of character.  They simply haven't been effective despite being given numerous opportunities, which were arguably ill-advised.  Yet I'm willing to look past Izzy and Franklin because they aren't the most glaring problem in the pen.  There are reasons to believe they can still rebound.  No, today's villain is Randy Flores.

In 2005, Randy Flores followed an abbreviated, but very effective 2004, with an excellent full season in the pen.  In 41 innings, he struck out 43 and walked just 13 -- a 4:1 K:BB ratio.  He was death on lefties holding them to a .583 OPS while being raked across the coals by righties for a .800 OPS.  Surprisingly, he faced more righties than lefties that season so you might suspect that the shallow statistics (ERA, WHIP) could have been even more impressive than they were.  He had a nasty wipeout slider and a decent fastball with good command.

2006 was a different story.  The command starts to dissipate but more dangerous, the stuff starts to go with it.  Flores would walk 9 more batters in 2006 dropping his K:BB ratio under 2 (40:22).  Hitters saw their average rise 50 points against Flores.  (Think about that -- 50 points would make Izturis a .275 hitter.)  That's an incredible jump.  At the time, I probably would have pointed to a leap in BABIP as an unlucky attribute.  BABIP, imo, is less effective when talking about fringe guys because regardless of the ball type, the hits seem to be harder and placed better by the hitters.  Maybe that's revisionist or hindsight-using on my part but I'm sticking with it.  Lefties up to a .685 OPS and righties to a .977 OPS.  The argument could be made that he was still an effective LOOGY but the slippage had started.

Odd things start to happen in 2007.  Well, they weren't that odd.  Flores got worse somehow.  Batters were teeing off at a .310 clip.  He walked fewer batters (15) and struck out a good number (47) but when you're getting hit hard on a regular basis, I'd question the peripherals as representative of a pitcher's stuff.  The (somewhat) odd change was that Flores was better against righties than lefties -- a 73 pt. split as lefties roasted him for an OPS over .800.  It's tough to argue that he's really an effective pitcher at this point.  The Cardinals signed him to an inexplicable two year contract prior to 2007 so he was assured to be around for 2008.

PECOTA suggested that there was about a 1 in 3 chance he was going to be a major league caliber player heading into this season.  Through 20 innings this season, he's walked 17 and struck out 14.  Hitters are getting on base at a .396 clip with an OPS near .800.  The unusual L/R split continues but the point is that Flores simply isn't effective.  Ron Villone holds lefties to a .549 OPS.  Kyle McClellan a .595 (he's got a plus changeup).  There's really little reason to hold Flores on the roster.

Of course having said all this, removing Flores isn't going to solve the problems we've seen over the last few games.  I don't know that there's a good answer to the recent spate of blown saves.  Trading for someone is likely to be costly in terms of prospects and questionable in it's efficacy.  If there's one step that I, personally, think could work it's bringing Perez up and putting him in the closer's role. I'll remind you that I balked at his initial callup this season.  He's not a finished product.  His command remains iffy and his slider seemed to abandon him while he was in the majors. 

That said, he deserves a little more credit than he got.  He was striking out a batter an inning and his fastball was an excellent pitch his entire time in STL.  I can recall the old mantra about Izzy not being able to pitch innings other than the ninth because they were non-pressure situations.  I wonder why that was never really applied to Perez who was a closer through college and his entire professional career only to find himself in the 6th and 7th innings upon making the big league team.  Does that mess with a guy's head?  I don't know.  I'm inclined to say no but I'm also inclined to see what he can do if he's explicitly told he's the closer.  Go get guys out.  Nothing more nothing less.

Perez was drafted for the post-Izzy era on the Cardinals. That just happened to come a little sooner than expected.  Give the kid a shot.  Can't be any worse than what we've been subjected to as of late, right?  Right?

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Well put, AZ

I agree w/ DFA Flores.Call up Perez, or Worrell/Motte to take Flores’ spot. Throw the young pitchers into the fire now.

I think Tony needs : A) pitch Izzy, or B) put him on the DL (if injured) or C) trade him. It’s a waste of a roster spot to sit Izzy.

I also agree that four MI is too many, but the situation is a bit more complicated for me. I love Iz2’s defense, but he’s not a ML hitter. Miles has surpassed all expectations offensively, but I feel in time Ryan will be that utility IF (and much cheaper). I don’t see AK adding much now or next year. If there isn’t more MI offense in Memphis, Mo’s got to make a short-term MI rental (package Miles?prospects?OF?) AND get rid of one (AK or Iz2).

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Jul 25, 2008 7:18 AM EDT   0 recs

You are doing well my son.

Say is that an F-16 your working on?

by CalvinB on Jul 25, 2008 11:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

state of the bullpen

Thanks for your informative post.

I agree about Flores but I still think the real killer this year has been Isinghausen. Nothing personal – he’s trying and a great competitor, but his time is over. It was in May but TLR and many others refused to see that. Some still do.

When your closer implodes it affects the rest of the bullpen. Suddenly, others who are comfortable, confident and competent in their 6th, 7th or 8th-inning roles, are asked to change roles and – as you have seen – are unable to meet the challenge.

It’s obvious we have to either go with a young kid (Perez) or two and see what they do the rest of the season and, at the same time, be aggressive in the trade and free agent market regarding next year. Also, there’s always the possibility of a current starter taking the role, but that’s unlikely for a number of reasons.

In summary, give Izzy a nice retirement day, move Franklin back to setup man and look elsewhere for a dependable closer…..but FIND ONE before 2009 or we’re going to have the same frustrations. This has gotten ridiculous and ruined an otherwise-wonderful season.

by ccthemovieman on Jul 25, 2008 8:46 AM EDT   0 recs

24

Last night, I should have been studying. Normally, I study and take a five minute break every hour to list to Shannon and Rooney (it usually takes at least five minutes for them to give the score). Last night, I stopped and listened. For some reason, deep inside, I wanted to submit myself to the torture of listening to another late game failure on the radio. When Franklin was trotted out for the ninth of a 3-2 ballgame, I went to my fridge, got a Budweiser (of American vintage), sat back down, and braced myself for the forthcoming blown save.

I knew we were going to lose and be swept. Why do we keep giving Ryan Franklin the ball late in games? As Az stated, Franklin is not good enough to pitch late in a close game. At this point, why doesn’t TLR at least try Springer? Why don’t we call up Perez? We have blown 24 saves this season! 24! And it’s not even August! The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. While TLR’s lineup shuffling is perhaps an indicia of madness, he bullpen management is the definition of insanity.

Also, I want to apologize for reading Wellemeyer’s performance after the second inning on Saturday as some sort of “turn of the corner.” Clearly, I was very much mistaken. Do the Cardinals lead the big leagues in walks issued with the bases loaded?

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 8:52 AM EDT   0 recs

Flores

Sorry for those italics. I screwed up with them and now it seems that I am insane. Let me give another indication of insanity: Randy Flores. I got out my Bill James Handbook last night and looked at Flores’s numbers from last year. Did you know that in 2007 Randy Flores gave up this offensive line to left-handed batsmen?

BAA: .326
OBPA: .377
SLGA: .432
OPSA: .809

Why would we even allow him into the bullpen this season? Well, so he could the exact same thing:

BAA: .263 (Okay, somewhat better, but nonetheless abysmal for a LOOGY.)
OBPA: .388 (This is because he is walking more batters, which is never a good thing for a pitcher.)
SLGA: .447 (Yes, that’s right. Lefthanded batsmen are hitting for more power this year against him.)
OPSA: .835

Lefthanded hitters are OPSing .835 versus Randy Flores. We’ll call this mythical composite “Lefty V. Randy.” Do you know where this OPS would place ol’ “Lefty” on the MLB rankings (if we throw ABs as a qualifier out the window, of course)? Well, he would have the 55th higher OPS in all of MLB, slightly ahead of Mike Lowell, and slightly behind Jorge Cantu. “Lefty” would have a higher OPS than: Carlos Beltran, Ryan Howard, Vlad Guerrero, Dustin Pedroia, Carlos Delgado, Brian Giles, Corey Hart, and Aaron Rowand.

Okay, I’m done. I need to go pray for a LOOGY and for Perez to throw strikes with his slider. (Perhaps he could breathe through his eyelids like the lava lizards on the Galapagos Islands?)

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 9:09 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Various definitions of insanity

That definition of insanity is one, kind of a folk wisdom definition, not accepted by psychiatrists as far as I know.

Here’s another one: Reading VEB game thread after a game like last night’s. I actually dropped in a couple hours after the game, to see what people had to say after the shock had worn off. But even though I started at the bottom, I ended up scrolling up and up and . . . bad craziness.

Another definition of insanity: Naming Ryan Franklin the player of the game while he is still on the mound in the 9th with only one out, Ryan Braun at the plate and Prince Fielder on deck. Madness.

by Youneverknow on Jul 25, 2008 9:10 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I try not to post late in games

I feel there is a disconnect between what you type and what it is conveying. Plus, one can be overly harsh as the play is happening. I usually like to sleep on it, then look at the course of events with a bit more distance.

Did they really name Franklin as the player of the game? After recording one out? That’s madness!

With your feet in the air and your head on the ground
Try this trick and spin it, yeah
Your head will collapse
But there’s nothing in it
And you’ll ask yourself

Where is my mind?
—The Pixies

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 9:18 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Only here

can you read things about baseball, breathing through your eyelids and Pixies lyrics. Gotta love it.

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

by TurdFerguson on Jul 25, 2008 9:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

that's a shame

Go buy Doolittle today.

by Evilfrog on Jul 25, 2008 11:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I watched a live concert on tv a couple years ago and was just so-so on them

Sounded bad to be honest, but I just assumed they sound better in studio. Either way, I love Where is My Mind, but I’m probably not going to be getting too much into the Pixies anytime soon. I’ll check out some of Doolittle with my 25 free Rhapsody plays on RealPlayer.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 11:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I have a vinyl box set with a few lives songs on it

They sound great. If it was a concert more than likely it was record in the eighties and lost sound quality. Or it was one of thier recent shows after they didn’t play together for 20 years.

The stones were awesome live in the 60s and 70s. 30 years later at the superbowl…. not so much.

by Evilfrog on Jul 25, 2008 2:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think it was the later (i.e., hadn't played together)

I can’t remember where it was, but it was in HD and I believe I watched it on MHD. Of course the only song I knew was Where is My Mind, and I thought it sounded nothing like the recording.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 4:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yes they did

Two pitches before the HR.

“we are going to give Franklin the player of the game snice he is going to get a DP ball right here…”

SMACK!

by Evilfrog on Jul 25, 2008 11:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Insanity is not a medical diagnosis

Therefore psychiatrists don’t recognize it at all, no matter what definition you use. Insanity is a legal term. Basically it means that one is not legally responsible for their decisions since they are unable to understand the difference between right and wrong.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 11:24 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

True.

And yet in a legal proceeding the people contributing opinions or diagnoses re: the individual’s state of mind would be medical professionals. There is some overlap.

But you are right. It is not a term used in medicine any longer.

by Youneverknow on Jul 25, 2008 12:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Basically right

But just to clariry, no one in the medical field will ever diagnosis someone as “insane”, nor will they use the term. “Insane” is a label given by a judge based on information presented by professionals. It’s a legal term to remove blame from someone’s actions. \

Basically, its semantics. Where a psychiatrist might use dementia or mania, a judge would use insanity.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 12:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You're one of these last word guys?

I thought I used the phrase “you are right.” I stand corrected, again, even though this wasn’t even the point of my original post. It was to have fun with the definition of insanity.

by Youneverknow on Jul 25, 2008 12:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess ultimately we agree

I just had a tiny issue with the comment about the medical professionals. It read like they were giving a diagnosis (slightly). Look, there are a lot of people in the world who assume they know things (like, ground can’t cause a fumble, etc.) and ultimately look foolish when they say things. I guess I overestimated the importance some people might find in truly understanding something that people throw around as fact.

My bad.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 12:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

To piggyback Tackle Box

The legal standard and medical standard are different. Someone may fit a medical standard for mental instability but still not be legally “insane” and unable to stand trial.

insane, adj. Mentally deranged; suffering from one or more delusions or false beliefs that (1) have no foundation in reason or reality, (2) are not credible to any reasonable person of sound mind, and (3) cannot be overcome in a sufferer’s mind by any amount of evidence or argument.

Black’s Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004).

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 12:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

A law student and a lawyer

against a baseball fan. I’m overmatched.

Guys, I give. Uncle!

by Youneverknow on Jul 25, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sorry

I mixed you up with someone else in the discussion about bgh’s law studies elsewhere. A fan in Chicago, perhaps.

Calling you a lawyer was certainly no insult, by any means. But I did not mean to misrepresent you or who you are.

by Youneverknow on Jul 25, 2008 12:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

thats cool

and I honeslty had no intention of doing anything other than clarifying. I like to make sure things are crystal clear before I let go. Sorry if i came off differently.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 12:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I just meant to claify as well

The medical and legal fields are quite separate, but do crossover on ocassion.

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 1:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

"A hot dog at the ball game beats roast beef at the Ritz."- Humphrey Bogart

by iron duke75 on Jul 25, 2008 5:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

walks with bases loaded

Cards tied for most with the Cubs:

STL: 13
CHC: 13
ATL: 12
FLA: 11

by k randolph on Jul 25, 2008 9:27 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That is amazing

13 in a Major League season seems so high. Is there a repository for this stat? I’d like to know what an average MLB club can expect in this regard.

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 9:29 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I used

espn.com team pitching stats and filtered for walks. I has the last six years or so. High for the last few years has been 17-18ish. Average seems to be around 9/10.

by k randolph on Jul 25, 2008 11:14 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Studying? --> Barbri?

bgh, you got the bar coming up too?

Go crazy folks, go crazy!

by WizardofOz on Jul 25, 2008 9:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not til the New Year

I am a law student and work as a law clerk, in the law library, and am taking summer classes. Working at the library’s front desk, I see the folks studying for the bar every morning (because I open) and I’ve noticed a fatalism setting in of the “I’ve done everything I can do” variety, which, I think, is a good thing. Best of luck to you Wizard.

I am taking the February bar because I graduate early in December. I’ve covered this before, so I’ll be brief. Last summer, I did a Europe program for our law school, causing me to miss nearly all of the 2007 season. A good friend of mine and fellow Cardinals fan used to joke with me that we chose the right summer to go to Europe because watching this season would be torture. Well, we got back stateside just in time for Ankiel’s call up and our improbable run at first place. So, we missed most of the unbearable and got to see the best story of the summer. I call it a win/win.

Anyway, last summer’s and this summer’s classes put me on pace to graduate in December. I have a Wills & Trusts final in one week’s time, which I’m not particularly looking forward to that much. Hence my study schedule.

That’s probably more info than anybody cares to read…

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 10:09 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

4 days... It's gonna be painful...

But at least it’ll be over soon. That is, assuming I pass…

by ClonedCard on Jul 25, 2008 10:26 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Bar Humor...

Not sure if this has been posted anywhere, but for those of you who are also taking the bar, this might make you crack a smile or two.

by ClonedCard on Jul 25, 2008 10:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hilarious

Very Funny. Brought a much needed smile after yesterdays full day MBE. Thanks for the link.

Done in 5 days and in Busch III for the first time in 9 days to celebrate by watching the Cards down my local Phillies

Good luck to all.

Go crazy folks, go crazy!

by WizardofOz on Jul 25, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Good luck

to those of you taking the bar! Took Illinois in 2003, myself, and glad that I’ll never do that again!

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by ChiTown CardFan on Jul 25, 2008 10:29 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Really was Welley that bad last night?

He had a couple of rough stretches, I will give you that, and as much as I hate blaming the Umps (Ireally don’t hate it all that much), that strike zone was the most, biggest, worstly inconsistant zone I have ever had the privilege if witnessing in my baseball loving life. I remember AL and Dan commenting about how he was one of those umps filling in for one on vacation. I hope they were right, if not that yet another reason for the total revamping of the umpiring system.

So maybe I was a bit biased, but good googly goo that zone was bad.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 25, 2008 2:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

state of decline

I think it is senseless to blame the bull pen for what is happening to the Cardinals. The players are playing hard and have shown the ability to come back from devastating losses. I blame the general manager and ownership for this debacle. The GM has shown no interest in making a deal. He has turned his back on this team. I personally think he is proving to be one of the worst GM’s in all of baseball. Even the Houston Astros were able to make a deal. I am not sure it was necessarily a good move, but it was a move nonetheless. If doing nothing is the standard of a good GM – hell sign me up. I could do nothing and get paid a handsome sum to do it. We won’t sign impact free agents. Too expensive. We won’t make meaningful trades because we have to protect the kids – kids that have proven to be pretty lousy in the big leagues so far. So how are we supposed to contend? TLR is understandably frustrated. We have a second-rate GM who is content to sit back in his luxury box and watch his team fall apart. If he was such hot stuff – then why wasn’t he the Cardinals’ first choice? I think Del Maxville may go down in history as a better GM…

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 9:04 AM EDT   0 recs

Nope

I could not disagree more. What exactly do you want Mo to do here? Despite the standings as of Monday morning, the Cubs and Brewers are better teams than the Cardinals. The pieces the Cardinals would need to get to par with them would require giving up on 2009 and beyond on the chance that they could compete in 2008. Minimally, the Cardinals would need another starting pitcher, at least one reliever, probably two, and a solid hitting middle infielder (Peralta and/or Roberts.) What would that cost?

In my opinion, the Cardinals should be looking to see what they could get in return for Kyle Lohse from another playoff contendor. Let’s go for it with young players in 2009 rather than taking the 10% gamble that they can keep up with the Cubs and Brewers in 2008.

by Robb on Jul 25, 2008 9:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't agree with that.....

The Cubs and Brew Crew might be the better teams, but the gap isn’t as wide as some would like to believe. Especially if Carp and Waino come back anywhere near 100%.

Now, I do agree that adding the “things” that STL would need to add would likely result in giving up too much. I’m still not sure how to feel about this. I hate not making a move, but at the same time, I’m not against riding this out, staying close, and if we don’t make the playoffs, take a nice team into next season.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 25, 2008 9:23 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The GAP is ENORMOUS

Don’t you listen to ESPN, they’ll tell you it is.

/end sarcasm

by stlfan on Jul 25, 2008 9:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Heh

An example of that is the last 4 games. With any kind of bullpen, we likely take 3 of 4 from the Brewers. We at least split.

That doesn’t sound like a wide gap to me. Either does the fact that we’re in the race, some 100 games into the season.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 25, 2008 9:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The Gap

The gap between the Cubs and Brewers and the Cardinals – from a talent standpoint – is greater than it appers in the standings (or a bunch of 1 run losses.)

A simple example – you can front your rotation with Sabathia and Sheets, Zambrano and Harden, or …. Lohse and Wellemeyer?

Those teams also have better offense top to bottom. Granted, they don’t have Pujols. But they also don’t have our middle infielders giving up free outs.

I’m not suggesting that the difference is impossible to overcome with hard play and a few breaks. But to suggest, as the original post in this conversation, that Mo is the reason this team is sinking right now is incorrect. They have been overacheiving to have been in 2nd place for so long in my opinion. That’s great, and it’s been fun, but the odds are it’s not going to last. Do you give up next year’s talent to try to win this year, or give up this year’s talent to try to improve next year? I’d personally love to see what they could get for Lohse…

by Robb on Jul 25, 2008 10:02 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Fair enough.....

But I think Carpenter/Waino/Lohse/Welly compares pretty favorably with anything Chicago or Milwaukee can throw out there.

STL has 4 guys that have more HR’s than any Cub. Milwaukee can match our power, but they are young, and might have a worse bullpen than ours.

Again, the talent different is not that great. If it were, you’d see it in the standings.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 25, 2008 10:33 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i agree

with this assessment. But those two teams are more complete at this point, so in terms of where we are before trade deadline decisions, it’s difficult to tell. Wainer and carp could be back and the cards could suddenly look legit again, and make up for the recent sweep, or they could just muddle around. So, to trash Mo as a GM, especially comparing him to the ‘stro’s management is ludicrous. i think the astros’ deal was unwise to say the least. They have no chance at the central or the wild card at this point, barring miracle.

by spencegrif on Jul 25, 2008 11:01 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

the gap is the bullpen (ok, some more innings out of the SP wouldnt hurt either) If not for those , this team would easily be in first place.

That being said , I still don’t think overpaying is ever the answer. We still have a chance at the wild card. If only the pitching can overcome this.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 25, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

But we don't have a good bullpen

That’s the reality. You can say “IF” all you want. IF we had a good bullpen. IF Carp and Wainwright pitch well when they come back. Reality is, our bullpen sucks, Carp and Wainwright aren’t exactly close to coming back any time relatively soon, and that gap is getting bigger.

What is the gap going to look like in two weeks when Carpenter comes back and can only pitch 5 innings? In 4 weeks when Wainwright gets back? Next year when we maybe have a decent bullpen?

Look, I’m not a ledge jumper. I don’t see a real reason to panic since I still think this team is going to finish basically where I thought they would. Thrid. And I’m fine with that. It’s not ideal, but our pitching staff simply doesn’t compare to the cubs and Brewers. They’re in win-now mode, we’re not. No need to get pulled in to it.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 11:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

2008 season

I am not suggesting that we give up the farm. Look, Wainwright is on his back. So is Carpenter. We have tons of blown saves this year. You could make a case that we need to score more runs to take some pressure off the bullpen, but the point is we have the lead late in games and blown it. We have enough spare parts to make a run on a solid reliever. If we get the aforementioned starters back in the rotation soon – we become even better team. We had an All-Star pitcher beat last night and coughed it up. One move could really help the team.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 9:26 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll give you that

But do you give up solid prospects in order to shore up a bullpen on the chance that Wainwright and Carpenter come back? Or do you hope they come back and thus add depth to your bullpen by default?

Heck, I’m more likely to pull for giving Todd and/or Salas a shot in the bullpen rather than sending away someone for a 1 year rental (or whatever.)

by Robb on Jul 25, 2008 9:28 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

bullpen

Prior to this series, I thought there was a chance that waiting for Wainwright or Carpenter to possibly return could be the prudent thing to do. But we probably will not be in contention by the time this happens – if it happens at all. So, I think making a move for a reliever becomes a necessity at this point.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 9:42 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Quite possibly you DO "give up solid prospects"

because there are still only 25 spots on a major-league roster. No way are any large fraction of them going to be occupied next year, or in 2010, by this year’s “solid prospects.” Some of those “solid prospects” are definitely tradeable.

There is a large gulf between holding onto prospects for dear life, which is what a lot of people here want to do, and treating ALL of the prospects as trading chits, which is what Jocketty historically did. Somewhere in that gulf is reasonable and responsible use of assets. Personally, I would err, as most of us here would, on the side of caution in trading away prospects. But it’s not black and white.

by StanTheManFan on Jul 25, 2008 11:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I wholeheartly agree with Robb

It would cost too much in prospects to put the Cards on par to challenge the Cubs and Brewers this year. I say go with what we have. Cut loose a few players that are causing a drag on the team and throw a few at Memphis into the ring. Perez should be called up soon but I don’t know about being used as closer just now. As somebody has has in another post, I wouldn’t mind seeing Looper being tried, he seems the more logical choice to me.
Also I wouldn’t mind seeing Mc Cellan develop a minor injury to get him away from La Russa’s disposal for a few days. He is being used and abused and I fear that he is going suffer permanent damage if this bullpen mess continues.

by ridgesee on Jul 25, 2008 10:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

This post is utterly absurd

And I don’t think I’m exaggerating.

The GM has shown no interest in making a deal. He has turned his back on this team.

You sure about that? Have you an Mo, I don’t know, spoken? Do you work in the front office?

I personally think he is proving to be one of the worst GM’s in all of baseball.

Glaus trade? Lohse signing? Edmonds trade? Seriously? This is the most reactionary piece of garbage statement I’ve heard on here in a long time, and you’re not only pointing the finger at Mo and making baseless accusations (like that he’s not trying), but you’re ignoring the plethora of success he’s had IN LESS THAN A SEASON AS GM and labeling him worse than the likes of Colletti, Wade, and Sabean. Give me a break.

Even the Houston Astros were able to make a deal. I am not sure it was necessarily a good move, but it was a move nonetheless.

Have you gone utterly insane? You literally just said Mo should do something EVEN IF IT’S STUPID.

If doing nothing is the standard of a good GM – hell sign me up.

Again, Mo hasn’t “done nothing.” He swung Rolen and Edmonds. He signed Lohse. And I don’t know if you realize this, but the trade deadline isn’t past yet. What percent of teams have been involved in a trade so far this season? 10%?

We won’t sign impact free agents. Too expensive.

Mo has been here LESS THAN A YEAR. Not only that, but he signed the guy who is currently our defacto ace with Waino and Carp out. If that’s not impact, I don’t know what impact is.

We won’t make meaningful trades because we have to protect the kids – kids that have proven to be pretty lousy in the big leagues so far.

He’s not protecting Boggs and Parisi. People don’t want Boggs and Parisi. You can’t get anything for Boogs and Parisi. He’s protecting Garcia, Todd, Anderson, and (above all) Rasmus. I promise you people want those players. And they probably want two of them for a stupid LOOGY. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Rasmus hasn’t proven to be bad in the big leagues—in fact, he led all of the bigs in walks in ST. And Garcia certainly hasn’t been an abomination. And Perez wasn’t really all that bad.

So how are we supposed to contend?

Pay good players lots of money (Pujols, Carpenter) and develop a strong farm system to fill the rest of the positions with productive young players who don’t cost much. Seems like trading away the farm system now will make that IMPOSSIBLE in the future, don’t you think?

TLR is understandably frustrated.

Yeah. I would be, too. And (guess what!) Mo probably is, too. And Franklin. I’m sure none of them like blowing late leads. But there’s a big picture to see here.

If he was such hot stuff – then why wasn’t he the Cardinals’ first choice?

Because the other guy we wanted is generally regarded as sort of a genius. And, by the way, he didn’t really want to come to the Cardinals. So we have Mo…who, in case you’ve been too busy foaming at the mouth to notice, has turned a team that was SUPPOSED to finish in 4th-6th place into a team that’s contending for the playoffs. And yet he’s a second-rate GM because he won’t do something…even if it’s a stupid something?

What a joke. An utter joke.

by mojowo11 on Jul 25, 2008 9:35 AM EDT to parent up   1 recs

Burn!!!!!!

Totally agree with your line of thought Mojowo. Cardinal Red State, please pour yourself a drink and/or take a Xanax.

by cardinal fan in chicago on Jul 25, 2008 9:57 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Mo

I was over-the-top to give the post some flare. Look, it does not take a genius to realize that this team needs a shot in the arm. The frustration is mounting. All of the other teams have made moves to improve. We have done nothing. Absolutely nothing. I am tired of watching the Cardinals get a lead and blow it night after night.

I am part of a group of season ticket holders. I live two hours from the stadium. It costs me $40 just to drive to the ballpark. Let alone pay the ridiculous beer prices there. I do not want to see a AAAA team. I want to see a major league team. As a fan, I do not think that is asking too much.

Doing nothing is not fair to the players. It is not fair to the manager and it certainly is not fair to the fans.

I had many conversations with people prior to the season. I told them I had no idea how this team would finish, but I said I believed it would be an exciting team to watch. The season has certainly proven this to be true.

The team has played hard and remains in contention. The team deserves more than Mo has given them.

The facts are – Mo traded Rolen because Rolen did not want to be here. He acquired Lohse ONLY after Pinero was hurt. The only reason he got a bargain was because no one wanted to give Lohse a long-term deal.

He traded Edmonds because again it did not seem like Edmonds wanted to be here. Is he really the mother of invention by making moves to clear the clubhouse of bad influences?

Mo had nothing to do with the breakout seasons Ankiel and Ludwick are having.

Mo put a suspect team on the field. He knew it was suspect. We knew it was suspect. But surprise, surprise we are contenders.

If he does nothing to help the team he put together. If he does nothing to reward their hard work this season – then that is bad management in my opinion. We have an outstanding catching prospect we do not need. We have many pitchers we could trade. We have a pitcher with a World Series win that screams “change of scenery.” And you are telling me we cannot make a deal? Come on. It is time we as fans stop being the tools of management. I am sorry desperate moves in Spring Training, clearing the roster of All-Star players that have to be moved because they do not want to be here does not exactly spell genius. The fact is Mo is taking the safe route by doing nothing. It is easier to hang onto his players than it is to take a stand and make a tough decision. That kind of cowardice does not inspire confidence. I think Mo should run for Congress. He would fit in well with the cowards there.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 10:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

While I still tend to disagree...

this post is a lot more reasonable than the first, and will be taken much more seriously. I do think we should make a move to shore up the bullpen, but as many here are I’m reluctant to give up anyone in the top six of our minor leagues (Rasmus, Anderson, Garcia, Todd, Mortensen and Perez)...you could probably add Allen Craig to that list.

by cardzfanbub on Jul 25, 2008 10:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

2008 season

I just think it is crazy to give up on this season. The Cubs continue to struggle on the road. The Brewers are playing with a lot of confidence right now, but what if they suffer another losing streak as they did last year? Remember the terrible managing job Yost put in last year? The pressure to win is even greater this year than it was last year. All we need to do is get into post-season and then anything can happen.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 10:28 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Why is the pressure to win greater?

I’m not saying it isn’t, but going into the season we were projected to finish no better than fourth and even management was saying we were in a rebuilding mode (while still trying to be competitive). Is the pressure greater simply because we’re in the hunt? Last season we were projected to be contenders, and fell short (but we were still in contention)...just curious why the pressure would be greater this year…

by cardzfanbub on Jul 25, 2008 10:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

pressure

I was referring to the pressure for the Brewers to win. It has been made clear that Sheets will not be back. They won’t sign C.C. for another year. They are banking everything on this year. I am saying that the Brewers imploded last year under the pressure and there is even more pressure for the Brewers to win this year than last. So, they could fold under the pressure as they did last year, which means if we made a move – there could be some opportunities for us.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 10:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs