Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:

Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Shockey's Tweets Offer Insight Into Kevin Houser Release

Bullpen Decisions

Bender_tiny by azruavatar on Comment 354 comments

Couple of quick housekeeping items: 1) That sweep was really, really heartbreaking and frustrating.  That said, it isn't license to say whatever you want on the game threads.  Those threads are starting to get ugly again and we'd like to prevent that. 2) I'd like your input here.

[LB EDIT: re the game threads ---- accepting defeat with reasonable grace is a sign of maturity. a depressingly large number of people are failing the test. the community can do without childish people and childish statements. clean it up, starting tonight, or i'll start banning people summarily.]

The Cardinals have been carrying 8 arms in the bullpen at times this season because they've been worn out.  I won't argue the need for another arm at times because it's largely a matter of opinion.  One thing that will require you to carry more arms, however, is when you carry pitchers who are bad.  Pitchers who can't retire major leaguers aren't really pitchers -- they're merely warm bodies.  Those warm bodies shorten an already weak bench that includes 4 light hitting middle infielders.  It's a cascading effect that the Cardinals ought to address.

I could lambaste Isringhausen for collapsing so badly this season. He's been nothing short of terrible and I suspect he wouldn't argue with that much.  It's been tough to watch as he just seems to fall apart.  He was, however, eminently effective last year and I remain unconvinced that anyone should have expected this collapse.  Why it has been so difficult to correct, I'm not sure but that's not the discussion I'd like to have today.

Ryan Franklin's another name ripe to be thrown under the bus.  He had a lot of backers in these parts after last season.  He posted some unsustainable numbers and it was hard to see past the 2-something ERA in April and May.  After being put in the closer's role, he was deemed as an acceptable, if mediocre closer by many.  His walk rate has come back to normal levels and the groundballs have greatly diminished since last year.  This was a forseeable collapse that the Cardinals could have avoided exacerbating.  Franklin's still a major leaguer -- just a middle reliever not a late inning guy.

Those two deserve a lot of blame for the failures of the bullpen this season. [I wrote this before Franklin blew yet another save -- yawn -- SSDD].  I'm sure they're competing their hardest -- this isn't a question of character.  They simply haven't been effective despite being given numerous opportunities, which were arguably ill-advised.  Yet I'm willing to look past Izzy and Franklin because they aren't the most glaring problem in the pen.  There are reasons to believe they can still rebound.  No, today's villain is Randy Flores.

In 2005, Randy Flores followed an abbreviated, but very effective 2004, with an excellent full season in the pen.  In 41 innings, he struck out 43 and walked just 13 -- a 4:1 K:BB ratio.  He was death on lefties holding them to a .583 OPS while being raked across the coals by righties for a .800 OPS.  Surprisingly, he faced more righties than lefties that season so you might suspect that the shallow statistics (ERA, WHIP) could have been even more impressive than they were.  He had a nasty wipeout slider and a decent fastball with good command.

2006 was a different story.  The command starts to dissipate but more dangerous, the stuff starts to go with it.  Flores would walk 9 more batters in 2006 dropping his K:BB ratio under 2 (40:22).  Hitters saw their average rise 50 points against Flores.  (Think about that -- 50 points would make Izturis a .275 hitter.)  That's an incredible jump.  At the time, I probably would have pointed to a leap in BABIP as an unlucky attribute.  BABIP, imo, is less effective when talking about fringe guys because regardless of the ball type, the hits seem to be harder and placed better by the hitters.  Maybe that's revisionist or hindsight-using on my part but I'm sticking with it.  Lefties up to a .685 OPS and righties to a .977 OPS.  The argument could be made that he was still an effective LOOGY but the slippage had started.

Odd things start to happen in 2007.  Well, they weren't that odd.  Flores got worse somehow.  Batters were teeing off at a .310 clip.  He walked fewer batters (15) and struck out a good number (47) but when you're getting hit hard on a regular basis, I'd question the peripherals as representative of a pitcher's stuff.  The (somewhat) odd change was that Flores was better against righties than lefties -- a 73 pt. split as lefties roasted him for an OPS over .800.  It's tough to argue that he's really an effective pitcher at this point.  The Cardinals signed him to an inexplicable two year contract prior to 2007 so he was assured to be around for 2008.

PECOTA suggested that there was about a 1 in 3 chance he was going to be a major league caliber player heading into this season.  Through 20 innings this season, he's walked 17 and struck out 14.  Hitters are getting on base at a .396 clip with an OPS near .800.  The unusual L/R split continues but the point is that Flores simply isn't effective.  Ron Villone holds lefties to a .549 OPS.  Kyle McClellan a .595 (he's got a plus changeup).  There's really little reason to hold Flores on the roster.

Of course having said all this, removing Flores isn't going to solve the problems we've seen over the last few games.  I don't know that there's a good answer to the recent spate of blown saves.  Trading for someone is likely to be costly in terms of prospects and questionable in it's efficacy.  If there's one step that I, personally, think could work it's bringing Perez up and putting him in the closer's role. I'll remind you that I balked at his initial callup this season.  He's not a finished product.  His command remains iffy and his slider seemed to abandon him while he was in the majors. 

That said, he deserves a little more credit than he got.  He was striking out a batter an inning and his fastball was an excellent pitch his entire time in STL.  I can recall the old mantra about Izzy not being able to pitch innings other than the ninth because they were non-pressure situations.  I wonder why that was never really applied to Perez who was a closer through college and his entire professional career only to find himself in the 6th and 7th innings upon making the big league team.  Does that mess with a guy's head?  I don't know.  I'm inclined to say no but I'm also inclined to see what he can do if he's explicitly told he's the closer.  Go get guys out.  Nothing more nothing less.

Perez was drafted for the post-Izzy era on the Cardinals. That just happened to come a little sooner than expected.  Give the kid a shot.  Can't be any worse than what we've been subjected to as of late, right?  Right?

0 recs | Comment 354 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Well put, AZ

I agree w/ DFA Flores.Call up Perez, or Worrell/Motte to take Flores’ spot. Throw the young pitchers into the fire now.

I think Tony needs : A) pitch Izzy, or B) put him on the DL (if injured) or C) trade him. It’s a waste of a roster spot to sit Izzy.

I also agree that four MI is too many, but the situation is a bit more complicated for me. I love Iz2’s defense, but he’s not a ML hitter. Miles has surpassed all expectations offensively, but I feel in time Ryan will be that utility IF (and much cheaper). I don’t see AK adding much now or next year. If there isn’t more MI offense in Memphis, Mo’s got to make a short-term MI rental (package Miles?prospects?OF?) AND get rid of one (AK or Iz2).

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Jul 25, 2008 7:18 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

state of the bullpen

Thanks for your informative post.

I agree about Flores but I still think the real killer this year has been Isinghausen. Nothing personal – he’s trying and a great competitor, but his time is over. It was in May but TLR and many others refused to see that. Some still do.

When your closer implodes it affects the rest of the bullpen. Suddenly, others who are comfortable, confident and competent in their 6th, 7th or 8th-inning roles, are asked to change roles and – as you have seen – are unable to meet the challenge.

It’s obvious we have to either go with a young kid (Perez) or two and see what they do the rest of the season and, at the same time, be aggressive in the trade and free agent market regarding next year. Also, there’s always the possibility of a current starter taking the role, but that’s unlikely for a number of reasons.

In summary, give Izzy a nice retirement day, move Franklin back to setup man and look elsewhere for a dependable closer…..but FIND ONE before 2009 or we’re going to have the same frustrations. This has gotten ridiculous and ruined an otherwise-wonderful season.

by ccthemovieman on Jul 25, 2008 8:46 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

24

Last night, I should have been studying. Normally, I study and take a five minute break every hour to list to Shannon and Rooney (it usually takes at least five minutes for them to give the score). Last night, I stopped and listened. For some reason, deep inside, I wanted to submit myself to the torture of listening to another late game failure on the radio. When Franklin was trotted out for the ninth of a 3-2 ballgame, I went to my fridge, got a Budweiser (of American vintage), sat back down, and braced myself for the forthcoming blown save.

I knew we were going to lose and be swept. Why do we keep giving Ryan Franklin the ball late in games? As Az stated, Franklin is not good enough to pitch late in a close game. At this point, why doesn’t TLR at least try Springer? Why don’t we call up Perez? We have blown 24 saves this season! 24! And it’s not even August! The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. While TLR’s lineup shuffling is perhaps an indicia of madness, he bullpen management is the definition of insanity.

Also, I want to apologize for reading Wellemeyer’s performance after the second inning on Saturday as some sort of “turn of the corner.” Clearly, I was very much mistaken. Do the Cardinals lead the big leagues in walks issued with the bases loaded?

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 8:52 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Flores

Sorry for those italics. I screwed up with them and now it seems that I am insane. Let me give another indication of insanity: Randy Flores. I got out my Bill James Handbook last night and looked at Flores’s numbers from last year. Did you know that in 2007 Randy Flores gave up this offensive line to left-handed batsmen?

BAA: .326
OBPA: .377
SLGA: .432
OPSA: .809

Why would we even allow him into the bullpen this season? Well, so he could the exact same thing:

BAA: .263 (Okay, somewhat better, but nonetheless abysmal for a LOOGY.)
OBPA: .388 (This is because he is walking more batters, which is never a good thing for a pitcher.)
SLGA: .447 (Yes, that’s right. Lefthanded batsmen are hitting for more power this year against him.)
OPSA: .835

Lefthanded hitters are OPSing .835 versus Randy Flores. We’ll call this mythical composite “Lefty V. Randy.” Do you know where this OPS would place ol’ “Lefty” on the MLB rankings (if we throw ABs as a qualifier out the window, of course)? Well, he would have the 55th higher OPS in all of MLB, slightly ahead of Mike Lowell, and slightly behind Jorge Cantu. “Lefty” would have a higher OPS than: Carlos Beltran, Ryan Howard, Vlad Guerrero, Dustin Pedroia, Carlos Delgado, Brian Giles, Corey Hart, and Aaron Rowand.

Okay, I’m done. I need to go pray for a LOOGY and for Perez to throw strikes with his slider. (Perhaps he could breathe through his eyelids like the lava lizards on the Galapagos Islands?)

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 9:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Various definitions of insanity

That definition of insanity is one, kind of a folk wisdom definition, not accepted by psychiatrists as far as I know.

Here’s another one: Reading VEB game thread after a game like last night’s. I actually dropped in a couple hours after the game, to see what people had to say after the shock had worn off. But even though I started at the bottom, I ended up scrolling up and up and . . . bad craziness.

Another definition of insanity: Naming Ryan Franklin the player of the game while he is still on the mound in the 9th with only one out, Ryan Braun at the plate and Prince Fielder on deck. Madness.

by Youneverknow on Jul 25, 2008 9:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I try not to post late in games

I feel there is a disconnect between what you type and what it is conveying. Plus, one can be overly harsh as the play is happening. I usually like to sleep on it, then look at the course of events with a bit more distance.

Did they really name Franklin as the player of the game? After recording one out? That’s madness!

With your feet in the air and your head on the ground
Try this trick and spin it, yeah
Your head will collapse
But there’s nothing in it
And you’ll ask yourself

Where is my mind?
—The Pixies

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 9:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Only here

can you read things about baseball, breathing through your eyelids and Pixies lyrics. Gotta love it.

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

by TurdFerguson on Jul 25, 2008 9:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I watched a live concert on tv a couple years ago and was just so-so on them

Sounded bad to be honest, but I just assumed they sound better in studio. Either way, I love Where is My Mind, but I’m probably not going to be getting too much into the Pixies anytime soon. I’ll check out some of Doolittle with my 25 free Rhapsody plays on RealPlayer.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 11:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have a vinyl box set with a few lives songs on it

They sound great. If it was a concert more than likely it was record in the eighties and lost sound quality. Or it was one of thier recent shows after they didn’t play together for 20 years.

The stones were awesome live in the 60s and 70s. 30 years later at the superbowl…. not so much.

by Evilfrog on Jul 25, 2008 2:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think it was the later (i.e., hadn't played together)

I can’t remember where it was, but it was in HD and I believe I watched it on MHD. Of course the only song I knew was Where is My Mind, and I thought it sounded nothing like the recording.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 4:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes they did

Two pitches before the HR.

“we are going to give Franklin the player of the game snice he is going to get a DP ball right here…”

SMACK!

by Evilfrog on Jul 25, 2008 11:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Insanity is not a medical diagnosis

Therefore psychiatrists don’t recognize it at all, no matter what definition you use. Insanity is a legal term. Basically it means that one is not legally responsible for their decisions since they are unable to understand the difference between right and wrong.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 11:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True.

And yet in a legal proceeding the people contributing opinions or diagnoses re: the individual’s state of mind would be medical professionals. There is some overlap.

But you are right. It is not a term used in medicine any longer.

by Youneverknow on Jul 25, 2008 12:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Basically right

But just to clariry, no one in the medical field will ever diagnosis someone as “insane”, nor will they use the term. “Insane” is a label given by a judge based on information presented by professionals. It’s a legal term to remove blame from someone’s actions. \

Basically, its semantics. Where a psychiatrist might use dementia or mania, a judge would use insanity.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 12:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're one of these last word guys?

I thought I used the phrase “you are right.” I stand corrected, again, even though this wasn’t even the point of my original post. It was to have fun with the definition of insanity.

by Youneverknow on Jul 25, 2008 12:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess ultimately we agree

I just had a tiny issue with the comment about the medical professionals. It read like they were giving a diagnosis (slightly). Look, there are a lot of people in the world who assume they know things (like, ground can’t cause a fumble, etc.) and ultimately look foolish when they say things. I guess I overestimated the importance some people might find in truly understanding something that people throw around as fact.

My bad.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 12:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To piggyback Tackle Box

The legal standard and medical standard are different. Someone may fit a medical standard for mental instability but still not be legally “insane” and unable to stand trial.

insane, adj. Mentally deranged; suffering from one or more delusions or false beliefs that (1) have no foundation in reason or reality, (2) are not credible to any reasonable person of sound mind, and (3) cannot be overcome in a sufferer’s mind by any amount of evidence or argument.

Black’s Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004).

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 12:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A law student and a lawyer

against a baseball fan. I’m overmatched.

Guys, I give. Uncle!

by Youneverknow on Jul 25, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry

I mixed you up with someone else in the discussion about bgh’s law studies elsewhere. A fan in Chicago, perhaps.

Calling you a lawyer was certainly no insult, by any means. But I did not mean to misrepresent you or who you are.

by Youneverknow on Jul 25, 2008 12:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thats cool

and I honeslty had no intention of doing anything other than clarifying. I like to make sure things are crystal clear before I let go. Sorry if i came off differently.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 12:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just meant to claify as well

The medical and legal fields are quite separate, but do crossover on ocassion.

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 1:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"A hot dog at the ball game beats roast beef at the Ritz."- Humphrey Bogart

by iron duke75 on Jul 25, 2008 5:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

walks with bases loaded

Cards tied for most with the Cubs:

STL: 13
CHC: 13
ATL: 12
FLA: 11

by k randolph on Jul 25, 2008 9:27 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is amazing

13 in a Major League season seems so high. Is there a repository for this stat? I’d like to know what an average MLB club can expect in this regard.

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 9:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I used

espn.com team pitching stats and filtered for walks. I has the last six years or so. High for the last few years has been 17-18ish. Average seems to be around 9/10.

by k randolph on Jul 25, 2008 11:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Studying? --> Barbri?

bgh, you got the bar coming up too?

Go crazy folks, go crazy!

by WizardofOz on Jul 25, 2008 9:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not til the New Year

I am a law student and work as a law clerk, in the law library, and am taking summer classes. Working at the library’s front desk, I see the folks studying for the bar every morning (because I open) and I’ve noticed a fatalism setting in of the “I’ve done everything I can do” variety, which, I think, is a good thing. Best of luck to you Wizard.

I am taking the February bar because I graduate early in December. I’ve covered this before, so I’ll be brief. Last summer, I did a Europe program for our law school, causing me to miss nearly all of the 2007 season. A good friend of mine and fellow Cardinals fan used to joke with me that we chose the right summer to go to Europe because watching this season would be torture. Well, we got back stateside just in time for Ankiel’s call up and our improbable run at first place. So, we missed most of the unbearable and got to see the best story of the summer. I call it a win/win.

Anyway, last summer’s and this summer’s classes put me on pace to graduate in December. I have a Wills & Trusts final in one week’s time, which I’m not particularly looking forward to that much. Hence my study schedule.

That’s probably more info than anybody cares to read…

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 10:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

4 days... It's gonna be painful...

But at least it’ll be over soon. That is, assuming I pass…

by ClonedCard on Jul 25, 2008 10:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bar Humor...

Not sure if this has been posted anywhere, but for those of you who are also taking the bar, this might make you crack a smile or two.

by ClonedCard on Jul 25, 2008 10:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hilarious

Very Funny. Brought a much needed smile after yesterdays full day MBE. Thanks for the link.

Done in 5 days and in Busch III for the first time in 9 days to celebrate by watching the Cards down my local Phillies

Good luck to all.

Go crazy folks, go crazy!

by WizardofOz on Jul 25, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good luck

to those of you taking the bar! Took Illinois in 2003, myself, and glad that I’ll never do that again!

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by ChiTown CardFan on Jul 25, 2008 10:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Really was Welley that bad last night?

He had a couple of rough stretches, I will give you that, and as much as I hate blaming the Umps (Ireally don’t hate it all that much), that strike zone was the most, biggest, worstly inconsistant zone I have ever had the privilege if witnessing in my baseball loving life. I remember AL and Dan commenting about how he was one of those umps filling in for one on vacation. I hope they were right, if not that yet another reason for the total revamping of the umpiring system.

So maybe I was a bit biased, but good googly goo that zone was bad.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 25, 2008 2:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

state of decline

I think it is senseless to blame the bull pen for what is happening to the Cardinals. The players are playing hard and have shown the ability to come back from devastating losses. I blame the general manager and ownership for this debacle. The GM has shown no interest in making a deal. He has turned his back on this team. I personally think he is proving to be one of the worst GM’s in all of baseball. Even the Houston Astros were able to make a deal. I am not sure it was necessarily a good move, but it was a move nonetheless. If doing nothing is the standard of a good GM – hell sign me up. I could do nothing and get paid a handsome sum to do it. We won’t sign impact free agents. Too expensive. We won’t make meaningful trades because we have to protect the kids – kids that have proven to be pretty lousy in the big leagues so far. So how are we supposed to contend? TLR is understandably frustrated. We have a second-rate GM who is content to sit back in his luxury box and watch his team fall apart. If he was such hot stuff – then why wasn’t he the Cardinals’ first choice? I think Del Maxville may go down in history as a better GM…

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 9:04 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nope

I could not disagree more. What exactly do you want Mo to do here? Despite the standings as of Monday morning, the Cubs and Brewers are better teams than the Cardinals. The pieces the Cardinals would need to get to par with them would require giving up on 2009 and beyond on the chance that they could compete in 2008. Minimally, the Cardinals would need another starting pitcher, at least one reliever, probably two, and a solid hitting middle infielder (Peralta and/or Roberts.) What would that cost?

In my opinion, the Cardinals should be looking to see what they could get in return for Kyle Lohse from another playoff contendor. Let’s go for it with young players in 2009 rather than taking the 10% gamble that they can keep up with the Cubs and Brewers in 2008.

by Robb on Jul 25, 2008 9:16 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't agree with that.....

The Cubs and Brew Crew might be the better teams, but the gap isn’t as wide as some would like to believe. Especially if Carp and Waino come back anywhere near 100%.

Now, I do agree that adding the “things” that STL would need to add would likely result in giving up too much. I’m still not sure how to feel about this. I hate not making a move, but at the same time, I’m not against riding this out, staying close, and if we don’t make the playoffs, take a nice team into next season.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 25, 2008 9:23 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The GAP is ENORMOUS

Don’t you listen to ESPN, they’ll tell you it is.

/end sarcasm

by stlfan on Jul 25, 2008 9:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Heh

An example of that is the last 4 games. With any kind of bullpen, we likely take 3 of 4 from the Brewers. We at least split.

That doesn’t sound like a wide gap to me. Either does the fact that we’re in the race, some 100 games into the season.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 25, 2008 9:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Gap

The gap between the Cubs and Brewers and the Cardinals – from a talent standpoint – is greater than it appers in the standings (or a bunch of 1 run losses.)

A simple example – you can front your rotation with Sabathia and Sheets, Zambrano and Harden, or …. Lohse and Wellemeyer?

Those teams also have better offense top to bottom. Granted, they don’t have Pujols. But they also don’t have our middle infielders giving up free outs.

I’m not suggesting that the difference is impossible to overcome with hard play and a few breaks. But to suggest, as the original post in this conversation, that Mo is the reason this team is sinking right now is incorrect. They have been overacheiving to have been in 2nd place for so long in my opinion. That’s great, and it’s been fun, but the odds are it’s not going to last. Do you give up next year’s talent to try to win this year, or give up this year’s talent to try to improve next year? I’d personally love to see what they could get for Lohse…

by Robb on Jul 25, 2008 10:02 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fair enough.....

But I think Carpenter/Waino/Lohse/Welly compares pretty favorably with anything Chicago or Milwaukee can throw out there.

STL has 4 guys that have more HR’s than any Cub. Milwaukee can match our power, but they are young, and might have a worse bullpen than ours.

Again, the talent different is not that great. If it were, you’d see it in the standings.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 25, 2008 10:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i agree

with this assessment. But those two teams are more complete at this point, so in terms of where we are before trade deadline decisions, it’s difficult to tell. Wainer and carp could be back and the cards could suddenly look legit again, and make up for the recent sweep, or they could just muddle around. So, to trash Mo as a GM, especially comparing him to the ‘stro’s management is ludicrous. i think the astros’ deal was unwise to say the least. They have no chance at the central or the wild card at this point, barring miracle.

by spencegrif on Jul 25, 2008 11:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

the gap is the bullpen (ok, some more innings out of the SP wouldnt hurt either) If not for those , this team would easily be in first place.

That being said , I still don’t think overpaying is ever the answer. We still have a chance at the wild card. If only the pitching can overcome this.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 25, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But we don't have a good bullpen

That’s the reality. You can say “IF” all you want. IF we had a good bullpen. IF Carp and Wainwright pitch well when they come back. Reality is, our bullpen sucks, Carp and Wainwright aren’t exactly close to coming back any time relatively soon, and that gap is getting bigger.

What is the gap going to look like in two weeks when Carpenter comes back and can only pitch 5 innings? In 4 weeks when Wainwright gets back? Next year when we maybe have a decent bullpen?

Look, I’m not a ledge jumper. I don’t see a real reason to panic since I still think this team is going to finish basically where I thought they would. Thrid. And I’m fine with that. It’s not ideal, but our pitching staff simply doesn’t compare to the cubs and Brewers. They’re in win-now mode, we’re not. No need to get pulled in to it.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 11:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2008 season

I am not suggesting that we give up the farm. Look, Wainwright is on his back. So is Carpenter. We have tons of blown saves this year. You could make a case that we need to score more runs to take some pressure off the bullpen, but the point is we have the lead late in games and blown it. We have enough spare parts to make a run on a solid reliever. If we get the aforementioned starters back in the rotation soon – we become even better team. We had an All-Star pitcher beat last night and coughed it up. One move could really help the team.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 9:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll give you that

But do you give up solid prospects in order to shore up a bullpen on the chance that Wainwright and Carpenter come back? Or do you hope they come back and thus add depth to your bullpen by default?

Heck, I’m more likely to pull for giving Todd and/or Salas a shot in the bullpen rather than sending away someone for a 1 year rental (or whatever.)

by Robb on Jul 25, 2008 9:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

bullpen

Prior to this series, I thought there was a chance that waiting for Wainwright or Carpenter to possibly return could be the prudent thing to do. But we probably will not be in contention by the time this happens – if it happens at all. So, I think making a move for a reliever becomes a necessity at this point.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 9:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Quite possibly you DO "give up solid prospects"

because there are still only 25 spots on a major-league roster. No way are any large fraction of them going to be occupied next year, or in 2010, by this year’s “solid prospects.” Some of those “solid prospects” are definitely tradeable.

There is a large gulf between holding onto prospects for dear life, which is what a lot of people here want to do, and treating ALL of the prospects as trading chits, which is what Jocketty historically did. Somewhere in that gulf is reasonable and responsible use of assets. Personally, I would err, as most of us here would, on the side of caution in trading away prospects. But it’s not black and white.

by StanTheManFan on Jul 25, 2008 11:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wholeheartly agree with Robb

It would cost too much in prospects to put the Cards on par to challenge the Cubs and Brewers this year. I say go with what we have. Cut loose a few players that are causing a drag on the team and throw a few at Memphis into the ring. Perez should be called up soon but I don’t know about being used as closer just now. As somebody has has in another post, I wouldn’t mind seeing Looper being tried, he seems the more logical choice to me.
Also I wouldn’t mind seeing Mc Cellan develop a minor injury to get him away from La Russa’s disposal for a few days. He is being used and abused and I fear that he is going suffer permanent damage if this bullpen mess continues.

by ridgesee on Jul 25, 2008 10:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This post is utterly absurd

And I don’t think I’m exaggerating.

The GM has shown no interest in making a deal. He has turned his back on this team.

You sure about that? Have you an Mo, I don’t know, spoken? Do you work in the front office?

I personally think he is proving to be one of the worst GM’s in all of baseball.

Glaus trade? Lohse signing? Edmonds trade? Seriously? This is the most reactionary piece of garbage statement I’ve heard on here in a long time, and you’re not only pointing the finger at Mo and making baseless accusations (like that he’s not trying), but you’re ignoring the plethora of success he’s had IN LESS THAN A SEASON AS GM and labeling him worse than the likes of Colletti, Wade, and Sabean. Give me a break.

Even the Houston Astros were able to make a deal. I am not sure it was necessarily a good move, but it was a move nonetheless.

Have you gone utterly insane? You literally just said Mo should do something EVEN IF IT’S STUPID.

If doing nothing is the standard of a good GM – hell sign me up.

Again, Mo hasn’t “done nothing.” He swung Rolen and Edmonds. He signed Lohse. And I don’t know if you realize this, but the trade deadline isn’t past yet. What percent of teams have been involved in a trade so far this season? 10%?

We won’t sign impact free agents. Too expensive.

Mo has been here LESS THAN A YEAR. Not only that, but he signed the guy who is currently our defacto ace with Waino and Carp out. If that’s not impact, I don’t know what impact is.

We won’t make meaningful trades because we have to protect the kids – kids that have proven to be pretty lousy in the big leagues so far.

He’s not protecting Boggs and Parisi. People don’t want Boggs and Parisi. You can’t get anything for Boogs and Parisi. He’s protecting Garcia, Todd, Anderson, and (above all) Rasmus. I promise you people want those players. And they probably want two of them for a stupid LOOGY. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Rasmus hasn’t proven to be bad in the big leagues—in fact, he led all of the bigs in walks in ST. And Garcia certainly hasn’t been an abomination. And Perez wasn’t really all that bad.

So how are we supposed to contend?

Pay good players lots of money (Pujols, Carpenter) and develop a strong farm system to fill the rest of the positions with productive young players who don’t cost much. Seems like trading away the farm system now will make that IMPOSSIBLE in the future, don’t you think?

TLR is understandably frustrated.

Yeah. I would be, too. And (guess what!) Mo probably is, too. And Franklin. I’m sure none of them like blowing late leads. But there’s a big picture to see here.

If he was such hot stuff – then why wasn’t he the Cardinals’ first choice?

Because the other guy we wanted is generally regarded as sort of a genius. And, by the way, he didn’t really want to come to the Cardinals. So we have Mo…who, in case you’ve been too busy foaming at the mouth to notice, has turned a team that was SUPPOSED to finish in 4th-6th place into a team that’s contending for the playoffs. And yet he’s a second-rate GM because he won’t do something…even if it’s a stupid something?

What a joke. An utter joke.

by mojowo11 on Jul 25, 2008 9:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Burn!!!!!!

Totally agree with your line of thought Mojowo. Cardinal Red State, please pour yourself a drink and/or take a Xanax.

by cardinal fan in chicago on Jul 25, 2008 9:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mo

I was over-the-top to give the post some flare. Look, it does not take a genius to realize that this team needs a shot in the arm. The frustration is mounting. All of the other teams have made moves to improve. We have done nothing. Absolutely nothing. I am tired of watching the Cardinals get a lead and blow it night after night.

I am part of a group of season ticket holders. I live two hours from the stadium. It costs me $40 just to drive to the ballpark. Let alone pay the ridiculous beer prices there. I do not want to see a AAAA team. I want to see a major league team. As a fan, I do not think that is asking too much.

Doing nothing is not fair to the players. It is not fair to the manager and it certainly is not fair to the fans.

I had many conversations with people prior to the season. I told them I had no idea how this team would finish, but I said I believed it would be an exciting team to watch. The season has certainly proven this to be true.

The team has played hard and remains in contention. The team deserves more than Mo has given them.

The facts are – Mo traded Rolen because Rolen did not want to be here. He acquired Lohse ONLY after Pinero was hurt. The only reason he got a bargain was because no one wanted to give Lohse a long-term deal.

He traded Edmonds because again it did not seem like Edmonds wanted to be here. Is he really the mother of invention by making moves to clear the clubhouse of bad influences?

Mo had nothing to do with the breakout seasons Ankiel and Ludwick are having.

Mo put a suspect team on the field. He knew it was suspect. We knew it was suspect. But surprise, surprise we are contenders.

If he does nothing to help the team he put together. If he does nothing to reward their hard work this season – then that is bad management in my opinion. We have an outstanding catching prospect we do not need. We have many pitchers we could trade. We have a pitcher with a World Series win that screams “change of scenery.” And you are telling me we cannot make a deal? Come on. It is time we as fans stop being the tools of management. I am sorry desperate moves in Spring Training, clearing the roster of All-Star players that have to be moved because they do not want to be here does not exactly spell genius. The fact is Mo is taking the safe route by doing nothing. It is easier to hang onto his players than it is to take a stand and make a tough decision. That kind of cowardice does not inspire confidence. I think Mo should run for Congress. He would fit in well with the cowards there.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 10:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While I still tend to disagree...

this post is a lot more reasonable than the first, and will be taken much more seriously. I do think we should make a move to shore up the bullpen, but as many here are I’m reluctant to give up anyone in the top six of our minor leagues (Rasmus, Anderson, Garcia, Todd, Mortensen and Perez)...you could probably add Allen Craig to that list.

by cardzfanbub on Jul 25, 2008 10:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2008 season

I just think it is crazy to give up on this season. The Cubs continue to struggle on the road. The Brewers are playing with a lot of confidence right now, but what if they suffer another losing streak as they did last year? Remember the terrible managing job Yost put in last year? The pressure to win is even greater this year than it was last year. All we need to do is get into post-season and then anything can happen.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 10:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why is the pressure to win greater?

I’m not saying it isn’t, but going into the season we were projected to finish no better than fourth and even management was saying we were in a rebuilding mode (while still trying to be competitive). Is the pressure greater simply because we’re in the hunt? Last season we were projected to be contenders, and fell short (but we were still in contention)...just curious why the pressure would be greater this year…

by cardzfanbub on Jul 25, 2008 10:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

pressure

I was referring to the pressure for the Brewers to win. It has been made clear that Sheets will not be back. They won’t sign C.C. for another year. They are banking everything on this year. I am saying that the Brewers imploded last year under the pressure and there is even more pressure for the Brewers to win this year than last. So, they could fold under the pressure as they did last year, which means if we made a move – there could be some opportunities for us.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 10:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My two cents

This isn’t directed solely at you bub, but I can’t go along with the whole, “we were supposed to finish 4, 5, or 6, so even though we are doing well, we shouldn’t make a move”. I am by no means advocating tearing up the farm system to get a couple of mediocre players or rentals, but if something good comes along, I see no reason why we can’t pull the trigger. As much as this 4 game sweep hurts, we very easily could have won 2, if not 3, of the games if we had a little more depth in the pen and/or another solid bat. That being said, the Cubs and Brewers are better teams than us (at this moment) if all of us stand pat. If we make a SMART move or two, and we are right there with them. It is my hope that MO will make a deal that helps us now, while not hindering the future. But I hope if he doesn’t make a move, it wasn’t because he we weren’t supposed to win this year. Anything can happen in the playoffs, ask the Rockies last year, and the Cardinals in ‘06.

by joecardsfan on Jul 25, 2008 1:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's true all the time

If a good deal comes along, you always pull the trigger. What changes is what a good deal is for your team at a given time.

by mojowo11 on Jul 25, 2008 1:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mo redux

I don’t really hate Mo – although I am frustrated that he has not made a move. I think the mental aspect of this game is important. The Brewers are playing out of their minds right now because they got the best pitcher on the market playing for their team. I am not suggesting we duplicate this and trade away our future to win now. I am just saying the psychological impact of the Brewers deal is huge. Our team is beat down and it is a shame to let them drown right now. Guys like Ankiel, Ludwick, Molina are having great seasons. I just think we should reward their efforts.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 10:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You seem to be so adamant about what the team needs to do

yet you don’t really provide any new ideas. You are acting like there are logical solutions that won’t “trade away our future” that will help the team “win now”. I’m scratching my head wondering what it is that would have such an impact yet not really deplete the resourses for ‘09 and ‘10.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Cards should only make moves

to strengthen them as the 3rd best team in the league behind Milwaukee and Chicago, any thing to put them on level talent wise would be foolish. Neither the Brewers no the Cubs are as powerful as they look now. Both will hit a slump before season’s end and for a time will look just as pitiful as we have looked for the last few days. That is the Cards’ only hope, just to keep plugging and hoping. All is not lost, there is strong indication that 2009 belongs to the Cardinals.
If they can stay in it and make it interesting through August, I will be content. I am old enough and mature enough to survive with instant gratification. Obviously there are some that have not reached that apex.

by ridgesee on Jul 25, 2008 10:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess I'm in that category too

although I don’t think I’m quite as long in the tooth as you. I’m 33, and while many might think that’s ancient, I’m hoping it really isn’t.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 12:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm 32

going on 23

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 25, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ah, a comment that hits a little too close to home

and since we’re both such youngsters. Girlg Gone Wild is coming to Blarney Island. Just saw it on the news. Not that I’m interested in it, just thought it was funny.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 1:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Blarney Island

Its out in Antioch. A bar on an island a mile offshore in the Chain O’Lakes. Only accessibly by boat. Think Lake Havasu in Illinois, or as the website says The Key West of the Midwest.

http://www.blarneyisland.com/

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 1:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sounds retarded

but fun

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 25, 2008 1:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ah Blarney Island

I went to Bradley University and was very good friends with Pat Haley (I actually lived in the apartment across the hall from him). His parents own Blarney Island and they have treated us to a few parties while we were still in school. It is really a fun place to party and I highly recommend it.

by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 25, 2008 2:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Some might say the pressure is less

They’ve already been through a push for the playoffs and are a year older. Plus they added CC and guys like Cameron and Kendall. Those guys have been through it, and shouldn’t be affected.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 11:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The only issue I have wth what you wrote is

“we should make a move to shore up the bullpen”.

Unfortunatley it would take a minimum of probably 3 moves to shore up the bullpen. One move is like putting lipstick on an crocidile.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 11:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Again, you're making generalizations based on your kneejerk opinions.
Doing nothing is not fair to the players. It is not fair to the manager and it certainly is not fair to the fans.

Life isn’t fair either—otherwise Izzy would have his 300th save and we’d be in first place. Life sucks, get a helmet.

The facts are – Mo traded Rolen because Rolen did not want to be here. He acquired Lohse ONLY after Pinero was hurt. The only reason he got a bargain was because no one wanted to give Lohse a long-term deal.

He traded Edmonds because again it did not seem like Edmonds wanted to be here. Is he really the mother of invention by making moves to clear the clubhouse of bad influences?

So he just moved those players because they didn’t want to be here, but he gets not credit for getting a great return on his investment of trading guys who didn’t want to be here? Glaus is one of the top 3rd baseman in the NL this season - Rolen hasn’t sniffed that since 2004, and he got him in a straight up deal. He didn’t offer David Eckstein arbitration, even though most fans wanted to see him back - he signed Iz2, who has improved our defense, believe it or not, at a cheaper price than what Eckstein would have cost. As far as Lohse, don’t you think the Phillies probably would have signed him for what the Cards got him for, considering they just gave up 3 good prospects for Joe Blanton, who’s probably not as good as Lohse? Bottom line, he did sign him, and may have been in talks with him prior to the Pineiro injury, you can’t claim it was a reaction to that.

I do not want to see a AAAA team.

Wow, you just insulted the 24 other teams in the MLB that have worse records than the Cardinals do. That’s a whopping amount of AAAA squads in the big leagues this year don’t you think? Jesus—did you miss all of last season except the 6 weeks after the Ankiel call-up? That was a pathetic team to watch before Ank gave them a shot in the arm.

The fact is Mo is taking the safe route by doing nothing.

Have you looked at the market lately? The Phillies just gave up 3 really good prospects for Joe Blanton—JOE BLANTON!!! The Cubs traded away 3 big league ready players and a good hitting AA catcher for Rich Harden and Chad Gaudin. The players given up in those deals are better than most of what the Cardinals have in their system right now besides Anderson, Rasmus, and Todd.

Name some players that we have that other teams would want, straight up, for something that would help this club match up better with the Cubs and Brewers. Reyes isn’t worth anything, or he would have been moved already—he’s nothing more than a throw in player at this point. Anderson has value, but how much value? He’s worth much more than a 1/3 season rental of a LOOGY like Eddy Guadardo, and he isn’t quite big league ready yet, so we can’t exactly trade him to a contender like the Yankees. Rasmus is really the only player that is going to bring back some good value for this club, and I really don’t want to trade his six years of cost-controlled ability for the chance to compete with clubs that are clearly better than us and are willing to do anything to win this year.

Lastly, you have no idea what Mo has been up to, so how can you claim that he’s sitting on his hands? Patience is the key my friend - let the teams that are going to make moves make them, then look around and see what’s left nearer the deadline - that’s generally when you can find some bargain chips that come back cheap without giving up great prospects. Honestly, I wouldn’t make a trade for anyone until I’m for sure that Carpenter and Wainwright are going to come back and help the rotation. Without those two players, I’m pretty sure that this club cannot keep pace with the other two teams in the division. Why trade some good prospects who could help next year to finish out of the playoffs anyway? I expect Mo to wait as long as he can while kicking the tires on anyone that can help this club—by all reports, he’s been doing that.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 10:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In the midnight hour, she cried "Mo, Mo, Mo"

LOL.

Of course, I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, but it does not appear Mo is anxious to do a deal. I think if the Cardinals’ players thought there was a deal approaching – their demeanor would be improved. Right now, they look worn out.

I think Mo is banking on 2009 and personally I think he would rather not have to do anything this year and probably won’t do anything. It would make his job easier if we were 10 games under .500 than 10 games over as we are now.

Off season deals are not the true test of a GM’s skills. It is situations like this that really test a GM’s ability. How do you address current team needs without endangering the future of the organization? It is a tough, tough situation.

Walt Jocketty always acted decisively in these situations. The Will Clark, Woody Williams deals were a huge part of our success.

This is a huge moment for Mo. Again, it is much easier to do nothing and this ultimately is the route I believe he will take.

I do agree with your point that Reyes would have to be an add-on in any potential deal. I think Anderson and/or Todd would have to be the center piece of any deal. If a team could get one of those two guys with Reyes to sweeten the pie – a deal could be made. I would not do this for a mediocre starter. I would, however, consider it for a reliever – especially one we could sign later as a free agent. Whether we do it or later – we are going to have to retool the bullpen in order to compete. The question is – should we wait to do this in the off season or do it now?

My point all along is that team has played very hard and very well. Letting them drown is sad. They need some help. I think Wainwright and Carpenter could be the answers, but it is doubtful the team will be in contention by the time they are ready.

I think it is sad, sad, sad.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 11:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I need to stop, this is impeding my work...

Of course, I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, but it does not appear Mo is anxious to do a deal.

Translation: I know nothing, but I do know that Mo isn’t trying. Maybe you should be the politician, you’re awfully good at talking in circles.

I think if the Cardinals’ players thought there was a deal approaching – their demeanor would be improved. Right now, they look worn out.

No, you FEEL worn out, so you’re going to make some garbage up about how the Cards players look and project your feelings onto it. They look like they’ve looked all season.

I think Mo is banking on 2009 and personally I think he would rather not have to do anything this year and probably won’t do anything.

Of course Mo is banking on 2009. That’s the idea. We are trying to improve long-term. Also, what you “think” about what Mo wants to do amounts to baseless, biased speculation and has no weight in arguing that we should condemn the guy. Like you said in the first paragraph, you don’t actually know anything.

How do you address current team needs without endangering the future of the organization? It is a tough, tough situation.

You’re damn right it is. Wait, aren’t you the same guy who advocated doing something to improve this season, even if it was stupid? Around and around we go…

Walt Jocketty always acted decisively in these situations. The Will Clark, Woody Williams deals were a huge part of our success.

Walt Jocketty’s model for team building doesn’t work anymore, that’s why he got canned. You can’t get useful veterans for pennies at the deadline anymore. The market has changed.

Again, it is much easier to do nothing and this ultimately is the route I believe he will take.

Speculation, and oversimplification of the situation. “It’s easier to do nothing” is a cliche and it’s bull**. It’s pretty easy to trade all your prospects for a good player, too. Seriously, that wouldn’t be that hard, lots of people would trade very, very good players for Rasmus and company. What’s hard is weighing all the options and deciding what is good and bad for your organization long term.

“Mo isn’t doing anything. He just needs to do some stuff. Doing stuff is easy. He’s a terrible GM.” You act like everything Mo should be doing is so easy, but you offer no actual solutions. I’d do this and this and this for a reliever…what reliever? Would that team that the offer? You don’t know what that team is asking. Sherrill’s price is very high, according to BaseballProspectus. The Marlins are pushing very hard for Fuentes. Members of the front office have gone on record saying they’ve discussed a lot of options and gotten a LOT of really ridiculous demands in trades. Trashing Mo without offering solutions isn’t productive or rational. You refuse to acknowledge that he’s played a large part in making this team what it is. You insist that what he’s done so far doesn’t count, for some unexplained reason, in how we should regard him as a GM. All of this is nonsense.

by mojowo11 on Jul 25, 2008 12:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Breakdown #2

I was over-the-top to give the post some flare.

You call it flair, I call it abrasiveness and irrationality. Know your audience. Flair works on MTV, not on VEB.

All of the other teams have made moves to improve. We have done nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Which doesn’t really mean anything. Before and after the Brewers/Cubs made trades, Mo’s goal was the same—compete this year, but don’t sell the future to do so. This is a club made to succeed long term. We just happen to be kicking ass in a rebuilding year.

I am tired of watching the Cardinals get a lead and blow it night after night.

And, what, Mo loves it? He doesn’t care? Everyone’s tired of watching late leads get blown. That doesn’t mean you start acting irrationally and without careful consideration.

I do not want to see a AAAA team. I want to see a major league team. As a fan, I do not think that is asking too much.

This team is 10 games over .500. If that’s not a major league club, I’d love to see your definition.

Doing nothing is not fair to the players. It is not fair to the manager and it certainly is not fair to the fans…I believed it would be an exciting team to watch. The season has certainly proven this to be true.

Fair to the players? That’s crap. These guys get paid a ton of money to play a sport. This “fair to the players” argument is just silly, really. And fair to the fans? You just said this team has been exciting and (if your memory goes back more than four days) they’ve been winning a whole hell of a lot, too! What the hell does Mo have to do to be fair to the fans if it’s not putting an exciting, winning team on the field?

The team has played hard and remains in contention. The team deserves more than Mo has given them.

Mo has given them a bajillion dollars to play hard. And quite frankly, if you aren’t going to play hard anyway, it’s time to get the hell out of the big leagues. I’ll go play hard in your place because I love to play baseball.

The facts are – Mo traded Rolen because Rolen did not want to be here. He acquired Lohse ONLY after Pinero was hurt. The only reason he got a bargain was because no one wanted to give Lohse a long-term deal.

First of all, when you state that things are facts but then list your own speculation, you come off as pompous. Second - Mo traded Rolen, who didn’t want to be here, for Glaus who has been nothing short of FANTASTIC for this team. He’s been downright great. What the hell do you want from him? He could’ve spun Rolen for parts, but instead he got back a first-rate starting third baseman. I call that a great goddamn trade and some exceptional GM’ing. He got Lohse after Pineiro was hurt, but that doesn’t mean he got Lohse BECAUSE Pineiro was hurt - correlation =/= causation. And regardless of that, I applaud Mo for not being in the running when Lohse was asking for a crapload of money, but then pouncing when he found out he could get him at a decent price. Again, good GM’ing.

He traded Edmonds because again it did not seem like Edmonds wanted to be here. Is he really the mother of invention by making moves to clear the clubhouse of bad influences?

He traded Edmonds because Edmonds sucked. I don’t know where this reputation Edmonds now has for being a cancer comes from—he was nothing but great for this organization for a long time. Regardless, Edmonds was expendable and crappy, and we got back a decent 3B prospect for the Padres (who then released Edmonds, that’s how bad he was). Meanwhile, we had Ludwick, Ankiel, Schumaker, Barton, and Duncan to play OF for us. That’s why Edmonds was traded. It was a great move.

Mo had nothing to do with the breakout seasons Ankiel and Ludwick are having.

He probably could’ve seen Ludwick coming—I did, to an extent. But the point is this: he had a lot of options in the OF. He set the Cardinals up to have 5 players battling for 3 spots. That’s pretty good. That way when one guy is a failure (Duncan), you’re okay because other guys break out (Schumaker). A little luck, but it’s not like he didn’t set himself up to get some.

Mo put a suspect team on the field. He knew it was suspect. We knew it was suspect. But surprise, surprise we are contenders.

Yeah, what a douche. It’s terrible to put a bunch of guys with room for improvement (Ludwick, Molina, Ankiel) on the field and hope for the best in a rebuilding year. It’d be much better to throw bajillion dollar contracts at Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre—or better yet, to sell the system for a couple veterans like the Astros. That’s what REAL GMs would do.

If he does nothing to help the team he put together. If he does nothing to reward their hard work this season – then that is bad management in my opinion.

Again, a) he’s rewarding them with pay and the chance to play baseball for a (very good) living every day, b) the trade deadline hasn’t passed yet, and c) he’s not sitting in his office watching porn all day, the guy is trying. We know he’s talking to the Mariners and the Orioles, at a minimum…and probably way more.

We have an outstanding catching prospect we do not need.

Trades require three parts—an expendable player (check), a team that needs that player (?), and a decent offer including that player (?). Just having a player doesn’t magically turn him into another player of equal or greater value who can help the team. If only trading were that easy.

We have many pitchers we could trade.

We have a FEW valuable pitchers we could trade. And, by the way, we’d like to use them in the future. Then we have a bunch of guys with no trade value like Parisi. You can’t just trade them for good players. This isn’t a video game.

We have a pitcher with a World Series win that screams "change of scenery."

Reyes has no value. Why can’t people understand this?

It is time we as fans stop being the tools of management.

Yeah! Stop being patient and rational! Instead, insist our GM do something even if it doesn’t make sense! Did you see the Astros trade for Wolf? Great GM’ing there! Emulate Wade!

I am sorry desperate moves in Spring Training, clearing the roster of All-Star players that have to be moved because they do not want to be here does not exactly spell genius.

I didn’t see Edmonds or Rolen at the All-Star Game. Did I miss something? Oh, by the way, Glaus and Freese have both been somewhere between good and great this year.

The fact is Mo is taking the safe route by doing nothing.

a) THE TRADE DEADLINE HASN’T PASSED YET. b) This is getting redudant. He’s not doing nothing. You act like he’s not coming to park at all. He’s attempting to make a trade that will help the club now without hurting it long term. You gnash at your teeth now, but you’d probably be even more pissed in three years when we have no useful young players because we traded them all in the 2008 race. You call it cowardice (despite knowing basically nothing about any discussions Mo has had…how arrogant), I call it patience and careful consideration.

by mojowo11 on Jul 25, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's talk about your flair....

We all are looking to 2009 as the promised land.
Why?

1. We will have more payroll flexibility.
2. We are counting on players like Rasmus and Perez to be a big part of the team make-up.
3. We should have a healthy Chris Carpenter and Wainwright pitching for us.

We are assuming management will pay money to shore up our weaknesses at short and second base.

We are also assuming Carpenter will be healthy.

We are assuming our young pitchers will compete for roster spots.

These are some major assumptions here. What happens if Carpenter is hurt again? What happens if Rasmus’ injury is the beginning of more injuries to come? What if Rasmus turns into J.D. Drew II? What if Garcia and co. are mediocre at best? Where is the 2009 season then?

Look, we were supposed to contend last year and we didn’t. The team was lifeless and boring to watch. I remember going to a Royals/Cardinals game last year and came away wondering what in the world happened to my team?

I am not and I have not advocated selling the farm. But is holding out hope for a CHANCE to compete worth more than putting resources into a team that IS competing?

It is a good question. You might not agree with my over-the-top approach, but it is a question worth asking. So far, Mo has done his best to dodge the question. Is he really the leader of the future? Maybe. Maybe not. One thing you can say about Walt was that he had nerves of steal. He put it all on the line. In the end his refusal to change his ways cost him his job. But he always stuck to his guns.

Mo may be a genius, but it is ridiculous to hold him up as some sort of champion for making moves that he was basically forced into making. I supported moving Rolen and Edmomds because I believed they were done. But the Blue Jays wanted a change of direction – it was basically a swap of players that had worn out their welcome, and yes we did get the better end of the deal.

I am not saying that we should fire Mo. But I think a little bit of perspective on his accomplishments so far is warranted. Maybe being patient and holding out until next year is the best approach.

But if this is the approach, then say it. If we are holding out for next year – then do as some here have suggested and trade Lohse. If we do not want him for next year – then trade him and get something for him. If we are keeping him around to compete – then make the team competitive. Prior to the start of the season – many here were bemoaning the fact that management was not being honest with the fans about this season. Now they are doing it again. Is this good leadership? If we are going for 2009 – then let’s go for 2009. Let’s turn Lohse and hell even Ludwick into can’t miss prospects that are near major league ready. But if we are still trying to compete – then lets compete.

Trading Lohse would be a bold move and it would send a clear message about what the direction the team is taking. Yes, we would be throwing in the towel – but he would have a chance to have a really great team next year. But doing nothing? It is as I said before – cowardly. We do not need a coward leading the franchise.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 12:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right on mojo.
Look, we were supposed to contend last year and we didn’t.

We were? I don’t remember a lot of people picking us to win that division a year ago—in fact, a ton of people were picking the club to finish 3rd BEFORE all the injuries to Carpenter, Pujols, Edmonds, and Rolen. Oh, and Spiezio going AWOL. And Encarnacion getting his eye socket shattered. Most of the talk I heard was how “lucky” we were to win the World Series in 2006 when we barely made the playoffs….

These are some major assumptions here.

True, but no bigger than the ones that your making. You’re assuming these things:

1. Schumaker, Ludwick, and Ankiel will continue to perform above expectations
2. That there is someone out there that could improve this club without trading away any pieces that will make us better in the future.
3. That Mo hasn’t been looking around to improve this club. (Which is ludicrous, by the way)
4. Our cobbled together pitching staff is even going to hold up for the rest of the season.
5. That oft-injured players like Glaus and Ludwick will hold up the rest of the season.

Shit, that’s a lot of assumptions to isn’t it?

You might not agree with my over-the-top approach, but it is a question worth asking. So far, Mo has done his best to dodge the question. Is he really the leader of the future? Maybe. Maybe not. One thing you can say about Walt was that he had nerves of steal. He put it all on the line. In the end his refusal to change his ways cost him his job. But he always stuck to his guns.

Oh, for the love of all things holy!!! Do you believe this vitriol that you spew? What question has he dodged? Every time he’s asked if he’s looking for players he says that he is. Just because you don’t believe it doesn’t mean he’s “avoiding the question”. You’re avoiding having any sense about things you have no idea about, but Mo isn’t holding that against you I don’t think. Jocketty’s refusal to change his ways did cost him his job, because he’s a professor of the old school which was flipping prospects for veteran help, and that ship has sailed my friend. You simply can’t compete that way anymore unless you have giant payrolls—and the Cardinals do not. Mo assembled this team from spare parts and trading washed up players for productive ones and future prospects, that’s what good GM’s do. Do you think that Walt is the harbinger of the Reds’ success as of late? His magical GM touch has helped them climb out of the cellar? Or is it because they have a really good nucleus of young players that they avoided trading when they were also-rans the past few years and look to have a stable base of good players in the future? I choose the latter, as long as Jocketty keeps them around long enough to find out that is.

Let’s turn Lohse and hell even Ludwick into can’t miss prospects that are near major league ready.

Yup, it’s just that easy - let’s flip Lohse and Ludwick to the Yankees for Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, and another top prospect. I’m sure they’d do it, because our guys have awesome talent and their guys are young and green with no proven abilities. What do you think this is, a videogame? Maybe you could trade Lohse to the 1989 A’s for Dennis Eckersley and Ludwick could be swapped to the 1927 Yankees for Babe Ruth - those guys would probably help this ballclub….


Yes, we would be throwing in the towel – but he would have a chance to have a really great team next year.

So it’s all or nothing huh? You can’t assume that Lohse would be worth a lot on the trade market right now. Most teams needing starting pitching have made moves to get it—and most of those guys are better than Kyle Lohse (excepting Blanton). Justin Duchscherer is probably a lot better trade for someone than Lohse. If we hold onto him and he keeps pitching this well, he’ll be a type A at the end of the season and we’ll end up with two draft picks when he signs elsewhere. That’s a good return, isn’t it? The world isn’t black and white, all or nothing. You can’t govern by extremes.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 12:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More Mo

Yup, it’s just that easy – let’s flip Lohse and Ludwick to the Yankees for Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, and another top prospect.

This is my point. It is not easy to do these things. I have repeatedly said that this is a tough situation. But leaders take tough situations and turn them into opportunities. More than likely we are going to do nothing. If Mo was committed to trading Lohse – there is no question he could do it and get something to help the team in 2009. That is my point, though, he is not committed and so it probably won’t happen. So what do we have? We have a mediocre 2008 and very little to help us in 2009.

True, but no bigger than the ones that your making. You’re assuming these things:

1. Schumaker, Ludwick, and Ankiel will continue to perform above expectations

The only thing I have done is make the observation that there are some guys having great seasons and it is sad that in all likelihood – they won’t get any help this year. A reasonable assertion.

2. That there is someone out there that could improve this club without trading away any pieces that will make us better in the future.
3. That Mo hasn’t been looking around to improve this club. (Which is ludicrous, by the way)
4. Our cobbled together pitching staff is even going to hold up for the rest of the season.
5. That oft-injured players like Glaus and Ludwick will hold up the rest of the season.

Shit, that’s a lot of assumptions to isn’t it?

I have never asserted that our pitching staff will continue to perform this season. I have never made assertions about Glaus or Ludwick except that to say there are some guys having great seasons and more than likely it all for naught.

I am certain that Mo is trying to do something. But in the end I do not think he will do anything. It has already been well observed at VEB that we could have structured a deal to get Harden and did not do anything on that front and by all accounts we never really even pursued Harden at all. Hind sight is always 20/20, but don’t GM’s get paid to see these things?

I am not saying I could do a better job than Mo. That is not the point. The point is that more than likely he will not pull the trigger to help either the 2008 team or the 2009 team. I personally think that is piss poor leadership. You are right that selling Lohse or Ludwick might not pay off. But it is a chance worth taking. Lohse was a great signing that could pay off for us. If we do not want to keep then move him. He is having a great year. Don’t you think the Mets, the Dodgers the White Sox or even the Angels would be interested in Lohse?

All I am saying is that Mo probably will not do anything and I think passing up opportunities is typical of the Cardinals’ management style and I do not like it. Think outside the box for a change. But no, we will do nothing and wait. That is all we do. Wait, wait wait.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lohse

Mets—who are we going to get from the Mets? They traded what was left of their farm system to get Santana. They would be interested, sure, but who do they have that they would part with that helps the Cardinals in 2009?

Angels—They have a ton of talent at AAA, they also have some pretty damn good starting pitching. Lackey, Saunders, Santana, Garland, and Weaver. Who, exactly, does Lohse replace in their rotation that they’d be willing to give up Brandon Wood for? They wouldn’t give up more than 2 good prospects for Miggy Cabrera last offseason, but now they’ll just up and trade for a starter they don’t need? I laugh in your general direction.

White Sox - second verse, same as the first (i.e. Angels). If we could get Josh Fields for Lohse, you bet I’d be all about it. But they don’t need a starting pitcher with Buerhle, Danks, Vazquez, Floyd, and Masset. Those guys have performed well for them - but they’d just deal us their best prospect for another pitcher they don’t need.

Dodgers—Lowe, Billingsley, Kuroda, Kershaw, and Park right now. With Penny and Schmidt injured. You’re right, they should just cough up Hu, LaRoche, or Kershaw for 12 starts of Lohse. They need a bat, just like everyone else in their piss-poor division. Trading for a starting pitcher isn’t going to get them over the hump because their offense is so poor.

I can’t stand people who don’t look objectively at trades. Just putting the Angels and Mets in there shows me that you haven’t even pondered what a trade would even look like.

You’re confusing patience with poor leadership—which is a complete non-sequitor. They have absolutely nothing to do with one another. It would be nice if you could formulate an argument that wasn’t based on strictly your opinion of things are look at facts. Also, and I said this in the above post. The world does not exist in black and white. Saying that if we aren’t selling then we should be buying is a false choice, and one that gets GM’s in trouble a lot of times. As Bill Parcells once put it:

Sometimes it’s the move that you don’t make that is the best move of all

You just seem to think there are all these great opportunities out there right now, but nobody is reportedly looking at any of the Cardinal players, mostly because we’re in a pennant race.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 4:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Harden

Name four players in our system, not named Rasmus, that was as good as that Cubs package. I wouldn’t have been ok trading Colby for Harden with all the pitching injuries that his club has had, why bring on another glass arm at the cost of a top 10 prospect who’s less than 12 months away?

The catcher that they included was ranked ahead of Anderson in almost every list of prospects entering the season. Gallagher was a big league ready starter and was a top 50 prospect. Patterson and Murton are big league ready players that fit well with Oakland’s needs.

Here’s a package that comes close:

Anderson, Mather, Duncan, Garcia, and Boggs

That’s not even as good because there’s no middle infielder in there, but it does come close. So we give up those five players, 3 of which could be Cardinals at a low cost for the next 5 years, for a year and a half of Harden—and he might only pitch 140 innings in that year and a half. No thanks, Billy, I’ll stand pat

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 4:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yup

a few of us tried to do this in a thread yesterday. we could really come up with…

1. a ML ready starter like Gallagher (ours are either too old or too young)
2. or a MI prospect who is basically ML ready w/ upside.

we didn’t match up and Rasmus shouldn’t be traded for anyone w/ health issues.

by kalmavet on Jul 25, 2008 5:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mo apologists

The one criticism of Mo before the start of the season was the mixed messages being sent before the start of the 2008 season. Again, we continue to see the mixed signals.

I would be content knowing we were working toward 2009. I would support trading Lohse. But this half-assed approach is really annoying and frustrating to watch. If you all think sitting on the fence is good leadership – then more power to you. I am tired of the mixed messages and double talk from Cardinals management. Compete or go home. Maybe my perspective will change. I do not know. All I know is that one of the greatest things in my life was being at Busch Stadium in game 5 of the World Series in 2006 and seeing the Cardinals win the World Series. It was an awesome experience and something I hope to relive. It makes me mad that we continue to have mixed signals coming from management. Make a decision for crying out loud! We are not going to do anything to help the 2008 team. That is fine, but it irks me that we probably will not do anything to help the 2009 team either. We could get something for Lohse. We could even get something for Ludwick. But in the end, Mo will probably do nothing and continue his pattern of speaking from both sides of his mouth to the fans. It is obnoxious and offensive. If you think that is leadership – then heaven help us. The trade deadline is fast approaching. It is time to make a decision about the future of the organization. The prudent thing to do would be to trade Lohse. But does anyone expect this to happen? People here defending Mo pointed out his commitment to the 2009 team. Why not take steps to improve our future now? We know he won’t do this because he does not have the nerve to do it. The double speak and nonsense coming from management is more than reason enough to ponder if the future is indeed in the right hands.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 12:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We're four games out!

and three out of the playoffs right now. There’s still a week before the deadline. I’m not apologizing for the man, but apparently think that his job is as easy as firing up Madden ‘08 and building a dynasty by season 3.

How do you know that trading Lohse helps the future? You don’t. There might not be any market for him right now, you simply don’t have any facts, which is what we’ve been trying to tell you.

He’s not being half-assed, he’s being smart. We’re not going to trade Rasmus, Todd, or Anderson unless the absolute right deal comes along that can help us now and in the future. Would you have liked to trade Rasmus, Todd, Garcia, and Anderson for Sabathia, only to watch him walk at the end of the year? Seriously man, get a grip.

There’s no double speak going on either - he’s simply said he’s going to try and improve this club without sacrificing the future. Sheets and Harden aren’t exactly pitchers with great injury histories, they could easily go down sometime in the next two months. If we get Carp and Wainwright back and healthy, they allow us to put some better pitchers in the rotation, and maybe Perez can come up and be a decent stopper in the ninth. Bottom line, you don’t know what’s going to happen, so you plan contingencies. As well as this team has drafted, I’d rather hold onto Lohse to the end of the year, hope to sign him to a decent deal, and if not, take the 1st rounder and sandwich pick we’ll receive when he signs somewhere else. Your plan has no contingencies - we either gut the team right now or we gut the farm and go for it in 2008, when there happen to be two teams that are better than us right now and focused on winning this year because their futures aren’t as good as ours, and they know it.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 1:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank the good lord

that you aren’t our GM—I’d have to bury myself in a bunker for the next 10 years.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 1:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

gotta run to a meeting.

I enjoyed the spirited debate. I am frustrated and very down on management at this moment. All we seem to do is wait around for stuff to happen. I am getting tired of it. So, hopefully I will feel better this weekend. I am taking a break from games. Maybe this will help my disposition.

Mo for Exec of the Year!

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Cardinal Red State on Jul 25, 2008 1:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow.

You all need to eat some prunes or something.

...and candlesticks make a nice gift…ok, let’s get two.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jul 25, 2008 3:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if you read more posts on here

the best reason I’ve seen is that there are no good deals to be made, and that if you saw what we were being offered, you wouldn’t make any moves either. sometimes it’s best to do nothing, as evidenced by the astros like you said…

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 25, 2008 12:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One quick thought

When things go south fast, the natural instinct is to panic, and scream for the team to “DO SOMETHING NOW!!!” Problem is that’s the mentality that causes teams to trade Jeff Bagwell for Larry Andersen or John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander.

If we are all screaming that we have to do something for the bullpen, then you can be sure as death and taxes that the other teams are paying attention too. They know Mo is desperate to make a move and they see an opportunity to “win” a deal, and possibly big. So getting decent return value for what you give just gets harder and harder each time Izzy, Franklin, Flores, whoever… combusts. It’s got to be a big game of chicken.

Long story short, it can’t be as easy as we like to make it. We should appreciate that fact to some extent, at least. He pulled a rabbit out of his hat with Glaus. Maybe he can do it again, but he can’t just snap his fingers and do it. He’ll have to stand under the fire and sweat a little, pitting sellers against each other, and wait for their internal pressures (trade deadline, payroll reductions, need to bolster farm club) to come to a boil too.

by Merry CRasmus on Jul 25, 2008 4:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Questions/Comments

1) Question: Why is WHIP a “shallow statistic” when it shows you, on average, how many people get on base against a pitcher in each inning? I think that measures pretty well how a guy is doing.

2) Comment: In 2005, Flores’ 43:13 K:BB is actually closer to 3:1 than 4:1, just to be nit-picky.

3) Comment: I don’t think the four light-hitting middle infielders would hurt the team nearly as bad if the rest of the lineup were consistent. I don’t mean that Ludwick has to put up a 1.000 OPS every month, just not have weeks at a time where he has a .500 OPS. Same with Glaus/Pujols/Ankiel/Duncan/Molina. If we can get our All-Star caliber players playing consistently, then with the defense on this club, and the pitching we saw through the middle of June, the wins will come.

Seriously, Miles has been quite a tough out this year, for the most part. He doesn’t hit with pop, but that’s okay. Iz2 was streaking hot in May at a 103 OPS+. In May, Kennedy had a 16 OPS+, which is his only month below 92. Brendan Ryan has simply been below average. Tony is great at playing matchups and getting the most out of guys usually…this, to me, looks like a perfect platoon. The only player out of this that I see should be out is Brendan Ryan. He’s NOT a middle infielder of the future. He should be down on the farm for someone that can flat out rake.

4) I know there are problems with my #3 (why do certain players have to be consistent when the MI aren’t? hasn’t the pitching staff has gotten hurt?) but I really don’t think that we’re in that big of a crisis right now. First of all, hardly anyone on here thought the Cardinals would be playoff contenders at this point. I was one of very few before the season that was saying we might have a shot. I was purely being optimistic on many fewer injuries than last year. We avoided them for a month or two and a half…then they came. We were decimated by them, at that point, and we fell off.

We are still in rebuild mode. We’re not going to make the playoffs in rebuild mode, unless we become sellers, or every one that we need to be healthy gets that way. Like I, and others have written, the bullpen was doing fine when the starters were going later into games and keeping them in games. The bullpen was doing fine when it had SET roles and people were being used in shorter outings and consistently in the same role (except McClellan, who has been used everywhere all year…thank goodness for a guy like him.)

The ride has lasted longer than most of us expected, AND it did not turn us into sellers (at least not yet), so the outlook for the future is no different…and possibly better than it could be.

by stlfan on Jul 25, 2008 9:13 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

1) It’s not a good predictive stat. To mych year-to-year variance. There are much better ways to evaluate pitching than ERA or WHIP.

2) Math should be my strong suit. . . I am ashamed.

3) I don’t see how it’s good to have 60% of your bench (2 MI + catcher) basically unable to hit for power. I’m willing to sacrifice offense for defense at SS but 4 middle infielders? Is there another team in the majors that does that?

by azruavatar on Jul 25, 2008 9:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, too much middling middle infielders

Essentially, we have replaced Speez (.862 OPS in 2006, .740 in 2007) or a player like Speez with the MIF hydra of Ryan, Miles, AK, and Izturis. They aren’t particularly threatening players with a bat in their hands. At least one, and probably two, should be dropped in favor of someone who is a legit long ball threat. (Think, Eduardo Perez.) The guantlet should be laid down: either Miles or AK. One should be the full-time starter. Ryan could be the back-up SS/2B. We have two bench players who are back-up MIF. This weakness is amplified when we drop a bat from the bench for a warm body in the ‘pen.

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 9:25 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I return to my original response: Call up

one of the Redbirds’ MI, trade one or two of the Miles/AK/Iz2, let Ryan be the utility man.

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Jul 25, 2008 10:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

re: 4 MI

I was going to say no other good teams do but, low and behold, the Cubbies offer up 4 MI (Theriot, Derosa, Cedeno, Fontenot) granted those 4 are better with the stick than our 4.

"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." -Wes Westrum

by nomar34 on Jul 25, 2008 9:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Derosa is more of an everything utility man

He’s played second, third, and both corner OF positions (he has 122 ABs as an OFer).

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 9:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

close

Aaron Miles with speed, better defense, and the ability to play SS at an above average level.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 12:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

negative

Have you ever watched Ryan Theriot play baseball? He might be fast, but he makes a crapload of baserunning mistakes. He has no range and doesn’t take walks and his arm is so-so. Plus, Miles’ baseball IQ is a thousand times higer.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 12:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you forgot

his baseball IQ is a thousand times Grittier.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Jul 25, 2008 2:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know what you're talking about since

I never mentioned Izturis. But since you brought him up, Cesar Izturis can field circles around Ryan Theriot. His arm is a ton better as well as his range and glove. Cesar Izturis and Ryan Theriot aren’t even in the same conversation defensively.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 5:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

um yah

Doesn’t take walks? He has 45 walks this season and is OBPing at .396. That’s 50 points higher than Miles and he has 3 times as many walks. His arm is better than Miles’, he can get to balls and make plays in the hole. I agree that Miles’ IQ is higher, but if it wasn’t than Miles wouldn’t have a roster spot anywhere—he gets by on the fact that he’s smarter than that average baseball player.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 4:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I actually just looked at B-R since I'm watching the cubs game

and I knew if i came here someone would have called me on the walks comment. I guess I was thinking more about last year when he didn’t do much of it.

Needless to say. His arm is not all that much better than MIles, but still would you want someone who’s close to Miles playing ss? Probably not. He’s a 2nd baseman who has played ok at short since the team either doesn’t have a shortstop or doesn’t trust the one they have (Cedeno).

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 4:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good point

on #3. I guess I didn’t really think about LaRue in correlation with them. However, I still think that if we can have consistency out of the “All Stars” or at least the better players on the team, then we would not have series like this putting up 2-3 runs per game.

Didn’t mean to “shame” you on #2…I think that 4:1 better proved your point, if it makes ya feel better.

by stlfan on Jul 25, 2008 9:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ha! Another math glitch in your mainframe

2 MI + catcher on this bench = 75% of the bench, because we only have 4 on the bench right now

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 25, 2008 11:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

re: WHIP

any guesses as to why it isn’t predictive? i mean, i believe those who say it is not, because they’ve done the research and i haven’t. so i don’t mean the bare fact of it not being predictive, i mean the reason it doesn’t work very well in that regard. it goes against what i would otherwise assume, especially since bbs are used frequently (k/bb for example). does it have to do with lack of pitcher control over BABIP?

by mattybobo on Jul 25, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yup

Anything blaming or crediting outcomes of balls in play to the pitcher is liable to vary from sample to sample and could make a pitcher look better or worse than he is.

by liam on Jul 25, 2008 1:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

makes sense now

it just required me thinking harder than usual and putting 2 and 2 together—i was aware of what you just mention about balls in play, i just hadn’t really applied that to WHIP.
so for my next question to the general community: why are pitching wins and losses stupid? i mean, wins are the most important thing in sports, right??? give me a guy who racks up wins while giving up 6 runs every start to a lame-o pitcher who dominates the other team but can’t heroically compel his guys to support him with runs. amirite or amirite??? (sarcasmeter alarm goes off…)

by mattybobo on Jul 25, 2008 3:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Say Kyle Lohse

pitches 8 innings of shutout ball and turns it over to the pen with a 1-run lead. Some lousy pitcher comes in and allows a run. Cardinals score another in the next half-inning and the game ends 2-1. The lousy pitcher gets the win.

Or, say, Roger Clemens in 2005, when he pitched a hell of a lot better than he had in his Cy Young 2004 season but didn’t get the run support and so was saddled with a bunch of no-decisions and cheap losses, so he came in third behind two pitchers who weren’t nearly as dominant as he’d been that year.

Of course, it’s nice when the other team’s GM overvalues pitching wins—you can get a Jim Edmonds for an “18-Game Winner” Kent Bottenfield.

by liam on Jul 25, 2008 5:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just to come back to this

the pitcher shouldn’t get all the credit for the win or the loss, since so much of it is out of his control. A pitcher with a lot of wins probably did put his team in a position to win, but if he’s on a crappy team with crappy defense and a crappy offense, he’ll have fewer wins than if he were on a better team.

There are pretty good and reasonably simple ways to evaluate pitchers that aren’t subject to factors out of the pitchers’ control. Pitcher wins aren’t one of them.

by liam on Jul 25, 2008 10:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Addendum

Sorry, he has 328 total ABs with 122, or, a little more than one-third, coming in the OF.

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 9:31 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The only reason

he’s played so much in the outfield is because of Soriano being dinged up all the time in the first half. If Soriano is healthy, he’s their everyday second baseman. I would expect Fontenot or Cedeno to get sent down or traded if Soriano is healthy. Hell, I’d love to have Ronny Cedeno at SS for us…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 9:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

after last night post game comments

I have a feeling that the Colonel is going to be lights out against his next opponent.

by Evilfrog on Jul 25, 2008 9:55 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tony said

that Wellemeyer didn’t show a “lack of control”—HA!

He obviously didn’t want to talk last night, so he kept it short and sweet.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 10:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You know what I found incredible...

Wellemeyer managed to walk five guys while throwing only 34 balls in five innings. Meaning he threw a TOTAL of 14 balls to the other 19 guys he faced. Wonder what his strike/ball ratio was before the fourth inning…

by cardzfanbub on Jul 25, 2008 10:25 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i was talking about the Colonel's comments

“I didn’t really lose a whole lot of command. The strike zone seemed to shrink on me,”

That’s one I could find online. The other was something about calling the strike zone a rotating carnival carousel.

by Evilfrog on Jul 25, 2008 10:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sitting in the bleachers

Though, I guess that’s not the best view… but I would tend to agree. The dude was throwing nothing but strikes for the first few innings. It looked like he was getting squeezed hard core from the 4th on.

by Birds on the Matt on Jul 25, 2008 10:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From the broadcast, it looked like

the home plate ump was committing one of the cardinal sins (so to speak) of pitch umpiring: calling pitches on how close they came to hitting the catcher’s mitt, not whether they were in the strike zone. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen that done as flagrantly as it was last night. Sheets got burned by it too, but not nearly as badly as Welle, simply because he was hitting the mitt more often (and if TLR honestly thinks otherwise on that count, I’m worried about him).

I’ve been watching baseball games for a very long time, and I have NEVER seen home-plate umpiring as bad as this year’s. There is no anti-Cardinals conspiracy there that I can see; our pitchers have benefited from it sometimes, just as Welle got screwed by it last night. Last night was pretty close to the worst I’ve seen, but there have been many other games where it was nearly as bad. Something has gotta be done about this.

by StanTheManFan on Jul 25, 2008 10:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The strike zone last night was terrible

I’ve never seen Ludwick argue a call before—but he did in the ninth last night, whether out of frustration I can’t say.

When even Al says the the zone has been all over the place, well, it’s a pretty poor job of the umpire behind the plate.

Through 2 innings, Wellemeyer’s K/B ratio was something like 22/3. There were a lot of swinging strikes though and he was missing location all night long. Al pointed out that his shoulder was opening up last night and his arm was dragging through, something it was not doing during the early part of the season when he was so successful. He was much more the “thrower” that he was with the Cubs last night than the “pitcher” we’ve seen so far this season.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 10:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it was a rookie umpire last night, right?

I thought they said it was one called up to replace a vacationing ump

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 25, 2008 2:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

re: the bullpen

Does anyone know what happened to the other Flores? I’m speaking of Randy’s brother Ron. He was in our minors, I thought at Memphis. And I thought he was pretty hot, or at least doing well vs. lefties. I thought he might be an answer to an effective LOOGY but the most I can find is that up until mid-May he was holding lefties to an avg. in the low 100s, and nothing since then. Did he get hurt? Did we let him go? If he’s still down there pitching like he was at the beginning of the year, I sure think he might be able to help us a little.

by A1R3Z on Jul 25, 2008 10:00 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's still around

Went through a rough stretch for a while there.

Here’s a recent story on him from when Randy was rehabbin’.

by liam on Jul 25, 2008 2:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Before Carp comes back (nexy week?)I

I’d like to see Perez and Worrell both recalled, Izzy traded so he can get a shot at 300 on the Pirates or somewhere, DFA Flores, and send down Jimenez. adding a lefty that can get righties out would be nice, but we need to stop carrying 13 pitchers.

When Carp does come back, I’d like to see them try to swing a move to trade Looper rather than putting him back in the pen (why not get something for him?) and leave Mitch Boggs in the rotation until Wainwright comes back.

My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

by Alxfritz on Jul 25, 2008 10:09 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LaRussa's Postgame

The man really hates to be wrong doesn’t he? He sure didn’t want to answer questions about he bullpen situation last night, especially when his quote from a few nights ago about the lack of offense was thrown in his face.

The blame could go either way for most of this series, but it’s really sad when your bullpen can’t close the door when you’re leading in the late innings. The stats don’t lie Tony, 24 blown saves is a problem. I’m not sure a LaRussa led club has ever had that many blown saves in an entire season and we aren’t even out of July yet. Tony keeps requesting a bat, but what good does a bat do when you can’t protect leads? I hate to say this, but if the Cards had K-Rod closing games we’d probably have the best record in baseball right now and be nearly 20 games over .500. It is, by far, this team’s most glaring weakness. Unfortunately, it’s probably not going to get addressed this season.

Without a trade, here’s my solution to this problem, supposing that Carpenter and Wainwright are back by the second week of August.

First, Wellemeyer goes into the bullpen as the set-up man, and Springer becomes the closer. This takes a 5 inning starter out of the rotation and only leaves two of those guys in the rotation (Looper, Piniero).

Second, Boggs and Thompson go back to AAA, Worrell and Perez come up to fill those spots. Villone becomes the LOOGY, and McClellan becomes the guy who faces full innings where lefties are in the mix. My pitching staff looks like this:

SP: Carp, Wainwright, Lohse, Looper, Piniero (no particular order)
MR: Perez, Worrell, McClellan, Izzy, Villone
SU: Wellemeyer
CL: Springer

That’s 12 pitchers, and IMO, the best bullpen that the club can put together in the short run without making a trade.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 10:13 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I still do not get why people want

Tony to publicly throw his bullpen under a bus. Someone please explain how Tony comming out and saying that Flores, Izzy, and Franklin are not able to do thier job and it is costing us games is going to fix the problem.

I see nothing but negative results coming from that.

by Evilfrog on Jul 25, 2008 10:27 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That wasn't my point at all...

I never said anything about throwing them under the bus. It’s obvious to anyone watching these games that the bullpen is a problem and that they must perform better. These guys are professionals, they should be able to take some criticism in the press when they can’t do their job. Publicly saying that they aren’t the problem AND that Wellemeyer didn’t have control problems last night shows a lack of honesty on Tony’s part, because everyone knows that both of those things are true. Hell, Franklin apparently seems to believe Tony, and he’s blown 3 of his last 4 save opportunities. Time to call a spade a spade I think don’t you?

Also, he shouldn’t throw the bullpen under the bus, but ripping the offense for having the game tied or led going into the 7th inning in three of the four games is ok? That’s the height of hypocrisy if you ask me.

I blame Tony as much as anyone, because he keeps putting pitchers in situations where they aren’t going to be successful. Franklin dodged trouble the first three months of the season, and it’s caught up to him finally. Springer has been the best guy out there all year, followed closely by McClellan, so those two should be getting the ball in the 8th and 9th, so why aren’t they?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 11:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I blame Tony as much as anyone, because he keeps putting pitchers in situations where they aren’t going to be successful. Franklin dodged trouble the first three months of the season, and it’s caught up to him finally. Springer has been the best guy out there all year, followed closely by McClellan, so those two should be getting the ball in the 8th and 9th, so why aren’t they?

The fact that spring has pitched 2 innings in 2 games once(maybe twice) snice comming off the DL should tell you that he can’t be counted on to close out games due to medical concerns – not ability.

And I guess we could make McClellan the closer. We’ll just use franklin as the guy who bails out the starting in the 6th with a man on first and third with no outs.

by Evilfrog on Jul 25, 2008 11:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hmmmmm

I outlined this whole problem above in the original post…apparently you don’t read…............................

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

your solution in the first post

Includes two pitchers that were on rehab and while it looks to be a sound solution, it still isn’t an option that Tony had advilable this last two months.

by Evilfrog on Jul 25, 2008 2:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True

But even without Wellemeyer back there, which is the best option, you could still have Perez or McClellan setting up and moving Franklin back into the middle innings where he belongs. That option was still available. Tony just seems to think that he’s closer material when he’s shown that he’s not.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 4:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Amen!

Tony does not have the luxury of saying what the front office should have done in the off season, and he appears to have little influence on what they will do now. Tony cannot get more out of this bullpen; they are simply mediocre, at best. He cannot-and they cannot-add 8 mph and movement to their fastballs. The offense is not mediocre, however, and they can score more runs.

Tony is focusing on what can improve, rather than what cannot.

by NoStro on Jul 25, 2008 11:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So

5 position players overachieving their career numbers (Ludwick, Ankiel, Miles, Schumaker, and Yadi) are things that Tony can control? What if they all decide to move back towards their career averages suddenly - can he make them start hitting again? He has less control over the offense than he does over the pitching - he’s the one that keeps trotting Franklin and Izzy out there in the late innings to blow saves and lose games every night, when there’s a guy who’s been solid all season (Springer) that should have an opportunity to close out ball games.

Tony does not have the luxury of saying what the front office should have done in the off season

Funny, he seems to do that all the time anyway. He wanted them to go after Bonds, he wants them to make a deal for another player, he’s constantly asking the front office for help for this club—so why does he keep benching Ludwick to get Duncan AB’s then? Ludwick’s OPS+ is north of 150 on the year. Tony doesn’t have the luxury of working guys in to the lineup this year because he doesn’t have a 5-10 game lead in the division like he did in the early 90’s. Tony should worry about coaching this team and stop worrying about what the front office is going to do. I believe that if Mo sees a player who can help this team and doesn’t have to give up the entire farm to get that guy, he’ll make a move.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sorry...

should have been early 2000’s…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 11:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What else is there to work with?

I am simply saying that you cannot get blood out of a turnip, or whatever other cliche or metaphor you want to apply. The bullpen stinks, that is all there is to it, and calling them out will not change a thing. Further, calling out management cannot change what management did not do in the offseason. In fact, calling out any part of the organization right now won’t do much, and I do not think Tony is calling out the offense, either.

You may be correct that many in the lineup are overachieving right now, but it is also correct that AP is in a slump. No one would call out Albert, certainly not me, but it is obvious that if he had gotten his average number of clutch hits, we would have won some of these games.

by NoStro on Jul 25, 2008 12:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So last nights conference could have gone something like this then...

Q: Is this another case of the offense not scoring enough runs or is the bullpen just not getting it done.

TLR: Well, it’s hard to win games when you only score 3-4 runs every game against good teams. That being said, we’ve got to do a better job of scoring runs in the late innings and the bullpen must be able to hold leads late in games.

Q. Did Wellemeyer have some problems with his control last night?

TLR: He looked fine for the first few innings, Dunc and I thought he might have gotten squeezed a little bit in the 4th and 5th, but he wasn’t hitting his spots and keeping the ball down like he’s done in the past this season. Overall he had a good outing though—he kept the team in the game against Sheets and he’s been one of the better starters in the NL this year.

Yup. That’s a ton of coachspeak, but most of it is also true. If Tony wants to continue to blow smoke up our asses that’s fine as well, but don’t get all upset when someone asks you a legit questions about performance.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 12:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bullpen Fun!

My friend went ape when Franklin was back. In his rant of hatred, he brought up a good point.
Why isn’t Springer closing/taking the 8th?
The Franklin-stein monster is showing his real #s, last year was very out of character.
I agree everything here including w/ Wellemeyer moving to the pen to prevent his arm from falling off, but I think we might need Thompson as a spot starter (when Looper starts throwing gophers in the 3rd).

by rmtx97 on Jul 25, 2008 10:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To lighten everyone up

I know a solid RHP bullpen guy we could trade for!
PENA JR! LOL(vid)
You know how much TLR loves his light hitting MIs, why not have him throw his low 90’s heat in the 8 and have him be a defensive replacement in the 9th.

by rmtx97 on Jul 25, 2008 10:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

springer can't close...

He is not healthy enough to pitch every day…..

Right now Tony’s actions have shown he thinks the bull pen sucks, but you can’t throw McClellan and Springer for 2 innings every night so there comes a time he has to throw one of the other pitchers

by ICbirdfan on Jul 25, 2008 12:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cleaning house (at VEB)

Thanks for taking the initiative to clean up the game threads. I love this blog for the reason that it is a great place to hold an informed, mature discussion about baseball. I don’t have access to the Cardinals broadcast (TV or Radio) where I live, so I’m stuck to MLB Gameday and VivaElBirdos whenever I want to follow a game. It’s frustrating to get on the game threads and see one or two word posts full of expletives, and other posts wishing serious injuries on opponents players (or even our own). I think there are only a handful of people that can spoil the whole thread. I hope they can clean up their collective act and continue to enjoy this great online community!

Go Cards!

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on Jul 25, 2008 10:14 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

The game threads have turned into huge pissing contests. Who can show the most outrage to prove that he/she is the “biggest fan?”

by jdub176 on Jul 25, 2008 12:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Overworked Relievers

It is clear they are just overworked. That really cuts into performance. Not having Wainwright, who was good for 6/7 each start is really having an effect now.

by Mike Laga's Foul Ball on Jul 25, 2008 10:27 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I didn't read the game thread...

Was there much talk of LaRue hitting w/two out in the ninth while somebody like Mather was still on the bench?

I didn’t get that one at all.

by Hoffa on Jul 25, 2008 10:35 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In all fairness

I think Jason LaRue has a better chance of getting on base than Joe Mather.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 1:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can't agree with that

Mather hasn’t yet proven or or disproven (is that even a word?) that theory. I would have rather had Mather in there if just for the power potential, one swing and it could have been tied. I really can’t fault Tony for having the vet in there for that AB though.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 25, 2008 2:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

With all of this said --

- and to be sure, I agree with most of it - when a team gives up exactly 4 runs in 9 innings, it will win (slightly) more often than it will lose. The problem in this series was the power outage, at least as much as it was the bullpen.

by StanTheManFan on Jul 25, 2008 10:45 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Putting my flame suit on right now...

So I don’t know how this will be received, but… I was flipping back and forth between the Cubs/Marlins and Cards/Brewers games last night and had a wild thought.

I was watching Carlos Marmol close the game out for the Cubs and they were talking about how it was a glimpse of him as the Cubs closer for the forseeable future. I began to then think about what is going to happen to Kerry Wood after this year.

From what I have read on here, as well as the forums over at the PD, he is a pending free agent and the Cubs payroll is going to significantly increase as a result of backloaded contracts and such. What about the Cards taking a flyer on him? From the games that I have watched (my fiancee is a Cubs fan) he is absolutely dominant when he is on. Sure he blows a few games, but (PED Eric Gagne circa early 2000’s aside) good closers stink a few times a year. Wouldn’t it be interesting to have him on our side?

Just a thought… flame away

by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 25, 2008 10:53 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Depends

On how much he’d cost and what kind of deal he’d be looking for. Perez is the closer of the future. He’s had a ton of injury problems in the past, so he’s probably not worth a 3 or 4 year deal.

If we’re going to kick some tires around on closers, lets take a hard look at dealing for BJ Ryan or trying to sign K-Rod away from the Angels.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 11:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Angels

can afford anyone they want to sign—every offseason for the past 4-5 years they’ve ponied up for big free agents. They’re in the top five in terms of free agent spending in the big leagues

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 11:27 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh

You mean if the Angels don’t want to meet his demands.

by CalvinB on Jul 25, 2008 11:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

exactly

and hopefully we won’t either. He’s not worth 15 million dollars a year.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 25, 2008 12:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's the best relief pitcher in baseball

He pitches every single day. If he was on the Cardinals this year, they’d probably be in first place. If he’s not worth 15 million dollars, then what is he worth?

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 1:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The years are another consideration

Remember that Eric Gagne was once in the same position as K-Rod and look how his trajectory went. It is clearly a very big need for the Cards, but the years and the dollars are so exorbitant that it boggles the mind. You could sign a #3 starter for that money or Orlando Hudson for less than that money. It’s a bit of a gamble that he will continue to be dominant and healthy. If I’m a GM, I don’t think he is worth $15M per, but the market will dictate his value and I wouldn’t be surprised if someone pays it.

by bgh on Jul 25, 2008 1:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

K-Rod

doesn’t juice—I have every reason to believe that Gagne was when he went on his great run.

K-Rod has also been lights out for the past 6 seasons for them. He has a workout regimen that is on-par with the top athletes in the world according to his manager. Gagne he is not.

I really wasn’t advocating signing any closer—simply saying that if you’re going to target someone, go after the best in the business or stick with the plan and turn things over the Perez next year.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 4:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Best relief pitcher in baseball?

No way. If I might quote Joe Pianowski from Yahoo! Sports:

Francisco Rodriguez might be the front-runner for the AL Cy Young Award right now per public opinion, and sorry, that’s just wrong. The only truly amazing thing about K-Rod’s season is the amount of save chances the Angels have been able to funnel to him. Take the saves out of it and compare Rodriguez to the other closers in the league; can you really say he’s having a better year than Joe Nathan or Mariano Rivera or Joakim Soria? Not if you stay objective and focus on the numbers.

by mojowo11 on Jul 25, 2008 2:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rivera

Is the best right now, and the best of all time, in my ever so humble opinion.

The difference between all those guys and K-Rod is that he’s actually looking to be available this offseason—those other guys aren’t.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 25, 2008 4:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kerry Wood bleeds cubbie blue....

I don’t think he goes anywhere but the Cubs. I can’t see them not coming to terms with him. He actually took a smaller contract because he was grateful that they stuck with him through his injuries. They will return the favor by paying him for being loyal and doing well….....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 25, 2008 11:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think people once said that about JEd.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 25, 2008 11:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I could never understand why people

thought that JEd bleed Cubbie blue. I also don’t see how now they would change thier mind.

by Evilfrog on Jul 25, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, I'm not exactly clear on what Evilfrog is saying

but I think you’re right Jill. And the reason you can be fairly certain about Wood and the Cubs is because they’ve both made public statements that would lead you to your assumptions. Plus, he’s willing to do anything they ask of him. He really is a great teammate.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was just a random thought

I understand your points. I just didn’t know what they are going to do with him after this season. They do have a future closer and Wood will be (from what I expect) a fairly high priced commodity.

by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 25, 2008 11:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He'll get a good contract--maybe I'm wrong, but I see him nowhere else but Chicago.

That’s a nice one-two punch at the back of the bullpen though…....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 25, 2008 11:22 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Um, who are you?

I’m scared to click and find out…....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 25, 2008 11:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

kinda scary…

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 25, 2008 1:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No offense,

but man, that comes off as creepy...

My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

by Alxfritz on Jul 25, 2008 1:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Creepin’ a bit Scotty

by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 25, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mister Bates

Sounds alot like something dirty, no offense

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 25, 2008 4:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

giggle

(I thought the same thing. Disgusting minds think alike.)

My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

by Alxfritz on Jul 25, 2008 4:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Boorish Behavior

The last four nights have been pretty gosh darn tough on Redbird fans. Reactions to such heartbreaking losses can run the gamut of negative emotions. One reason fans post here is to vent their anger amongst a community that can at least understand how they feel. When angry, individuals don’t necesarily show their better side. There is something that is worse however than “immature” reactions to lost ballgames posted on a blog, and that is censorship. Even the threat of banning “childish” posters has an inhibiting effect. If one wants a group of Al Hraboskys constantly touting the company line ad nauseum that is one thing, but what makes this forum interesting is that participants feel free to communicate with each other and yes, at times, that includes boorish behavior.

by Vinegar Bend on Jul 25, 2008 11:34 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Define an “immature” action.

by WriteTreatage on Jul 25, 2008 12:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're a poopy head!

I think that qualifies. (no insult against you, just saying something that sounds immature to me)

That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Jul 25, 2008 12:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

freedom of speech has nothing to do wtih it

VEB is my tavern; it’s for the enjoyment of all. if you’re out in public at a tavern, and one patron Ior one table of patrons) is acting obnoxious and diminishing the enjoyment of the site for all the other patrons, that person is asked to clean up their act or leave. any tavern owner who doesn’t follow these rules very quickly finds that respectable people don’t want to come to his tavern any more.

the same principle applies here. i’m not going to allow 4 or 5 immature assholes to drive all the grown-ups off the site. if that principle offends you, if you think it’s “censorship” (which it most certainly isn’t — go look up the term), if you think no standards of behavior ought to be enforced, then you won’t like my site.

by lboros on Jul 25, 2008 4:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hey, can we keep the cursing to a minimum?

;-) Thanks for all you do LB, great site!

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on Jul 25, 2008 4:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for talking down to me.

First off, I never said you were censoring anyone. I’m well aware this is your blog and you set the rules. I’m fine with that and I accept that premise as part of the ability to post here.

Second, your principle of “not going to allow 4 or 5 immature assholes to drive all the grown-ups off the site” doesn’t offend me. You should ban their account and their IP address if you’re serious about cleaning things up. Anything short of that is needless bluster.

Third, swearing doesn’t offend me in the least.

Have a good day.

by WriteTreatage on Jul 25, 2008 4:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You do realize he was talking to Vinegar Bend, right?

Or were you too eager to sound off about being talked down to you didn’t take the time to read?

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 5:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, I understood that. I just wanted to clarify my own position.

by WriteTreatage on Jul 25, 2008 5:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

who's the blusterer, writetreatage?

you only joined this site today — what do you know about this community? read and learn before you start pontificating about the rules.

and yes, i’m talking down to you — advisedly.

by lboros on Jul 25, 2008 5:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i take it back ----- 3 days ago

you joined 3 days ago. learn a bit about the community before you start bitching.

by lboros on Jul 25, 2008 5:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’ve been reading this blog for the past two seasons. Just because I finally decided to create an account this week doesn’t mean I’m new to either SB Nation or this blog, specifically. Trust me, fella – I’m well aware of your community guidelines and I have followed them to the letter so far.

I’m not your problem.

Have a good day, if possible.

by WriteTreatage on Jul 25, 2008 5:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look dude

whether you’ve been lurking for 2 years or just signed up today (or 3 days ago as it turns out), you can’t expect to call out the owner of this site about things like censorship and his community guidelines and not expect him to get ticked off. If anyone did it, he would (and should) be offended.

by Tackle Box on Jul 25, 2008 5:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey LB, I like your site. I find it very informative. However, you stated “a depressingly large number of people are failing the test,” not “4 or 5 immature assholes”. The definition you “advised” me to look up…...Censorship is the suppression or deletion of material which may be considered objectionable, harmful or sensitive, as determined by a censor” which is, I believe, exactly what you threatened to do. Of course this is your venue, I never questioned that. You can take your “ball” and go home anytime you choose, or, you can decide what rules the community will play by. I was not questioning your authority. I was stating an opinion.

by Vinegar Bend on Jul 26, 2008 4:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Subtle difference

I think the general idea is to add to the conversation that goes on here or at least not detract from the discussion. Constructive criticism is perfectly fine, but various iterations of “U SUCK!!!” are not useful to anyone.

As for profanity, I have no problem with pretty much any of it. If you are mad at a baseball situation, a single “FUCK” or “DAMMIT” works for me. If you’re mad at a baseball player, though, either keep it to yourself or keep it civil. (Excerpts of Lee Elia’s famous tirade are OK; the works of the great masters are always appreciated.)

That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Jul 25, 2008 12:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

???

what does it matter whether its public or private? censorship is quite simply the suppression of expression by a censor.

How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor

by themanthemyth on Jul 25, 2008 2:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i disagree w/ your definition of censorship

you guys are suggesting that i should allow any and all forms of expression — cusswords, racist slurs, sexist insults, homophobic speech, smut, pornography, and everything else. i shouldn’t ban anything —- is that your position?

the site would suck if i permitted all those forms of expression. nobody would read it. and nobody (at least, nobody with a whit of intelligence) wants to read a bunch of profane, childish whining when the team suffers a tough loss.

i think true censorship is imposed coercively by a powerful body (government, military, corporation, etc etc), which i’m not. i lead a community, and i make decisions based on what i think is good for that community. i think standards of expression are good, and a free-for-all is bad. you can call that censorship if it suits you. it doesn’t change my position.

by lboros on Jul 25, 2008 4:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Standards are good.

Thank you for installing them and then enforcing them, lb. We ought to be able to express ourselves and still be civil.

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 25, 2008 4:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have long thought the game threads

to be the room at the tavern where they park the patrons who have had too much to drink while they wait for the cab ride home. I haven’t even peeked at one for months.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jul 25, 2008 4:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hey

I’m not that bad, am I?

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 25, 2008 4:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you seem "sober" enough

on the main threads and the fanposts.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jul 25, 2008 5:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i'm telling you givemi

you’re missing out by skipping the game threads. there’s not as much trash as you think there is.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jul 25, 2008 5:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs