Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:

Around SBN: Last Jannero Pargo Post Bar-right-arrows

C + C's shutout factory

Woody_guthrie_tiny by Valatan on

So, that was a lovely game to pick for my lone trip to Busch Stadium this year.  CC Sabathia certainly looked incredible last night, painting his corners and changing speeds and just looking nasty.  I know that people will complain that the Cardinals didn't make him work enough, but I just don't buy that argument.  Sabathia was just throwing strikes, and throwing them hard, and throwing them on the corners.  Taking pitches against him wold have done little but generate a bunch of 1-2 counts.  Now, they generated a bunch of 1-2 counts anyway, but at least they did it trying to put the ball in play.  As it was, when Ryan got that hit in the sixth, it felt almost like a home run in the bottom of the ninth or something.

 


The thing that last night makes me truly question, however, is the wisdom of having Wellemeyer and Looper back to back in the rotation.  At least after Wellsie's injury, neither one of those guys really seems able to consistently go for six innings (though Wellemeyer has a two game 6.1 IP streak going, so I guess he can prove me wrong tonight).  La Russa kind of saved the bullpen for today by riding Izzy and Jíminez for two innings a piece, but that option won't always be available, and these five inning starts are murder on the bullpen.

 

If you don't believe me on this, I cite the following:  Look at the top five teams in the majors in IP from the rotation, it will be the Angels, Jays, White Sox, Red Sox, and A's.  Now, look at the top five in bullpen ERA.  The answer will be the Phils, Jays, Dodgers, White Sox, and A's.  Three out of the five of the first list are present on the second list.  Same thing happens if you look at the bottom five.  Some might say that it's park effects--starters in hitters parks get into trouble, and throw fewer innings, while relievers just get shelled in hitters parks.  But I'm not completely convinced, especially since the SkyDome isn't exactly pitcher-friendly. 

 

Anyway, I think what I am trying to say here is that I think the best trade we can make to shore up the bullpen is a trade for a starting pitcher.  We would remove Looper and his five inning starts from the rotation, which will filter down to the entire bullpen, allowing La Russa to reduce their workload and to establish clearer roles.  I have always thought that rotation stability was the key to La Russa's surprising bullpen finds.  Perhaps this season to find out whether or not this theory is accurate.

0 recs | Comment 123 comments

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

Display:

I'd agree

I just can’t prioritize a hitter over a pitcher for this team at this point.

by sdrone on Jul 24, 2008 12:04 PM EDT   0 recs

Reliable, Durable, Innings-Eaters

That was the name of my fanpost on July 19th, pretty much talking about that exactly.

by stlfan on Jul 24, 2008 1:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Defending AL Cy Young winner to NL All-Star starter

This is why the first two losses were so awful. It set us up to be swept given the pitching match-ups. Hopefully the Colonel from innings three through seven from Saturday shows up. I was in the crowd and he was in an absolute groove after his very poor start (aided and abetted by poor D behind him). We’re going to need him if we are to stave off a sweep.

by bgh on Jul 24, 2008 12:10 PM EDT   0 recs

Yep.

I want to beieve that he’s still just slowly recovering his control and stuff from his injury, and he’s close to full strength now, in a way that he just wasn’t three starts ago.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 24, 2008 12:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Had seats three rows behind the Pads' dugout

I purchased the seats long ago, in anticipation of Jimmy Edmonds’s St. Louis return. The Fates frowned on my best laid plans. I digress…

The Colonel struggled very much early on with every pitch. Two gentlemen sitting behind me were trashing him, with one of them saying that “We never knew what Wellemeyer would show up.” Finally, I turned around and said that Wellemeyer was lights out before injuring his elbow and ever since then has been shaky. Well, The Colonel settled in after the second inning. He was pounding the zone with both sliders and fastballs. He was so good that the two gentleman behind me were harking back to an imaginary bullpen move by TLR and how this pitcher has been good out of the ‘pen. I turned around and informed them that Wellemeyer had started the game.

I was shocked-shocked-when TLR pulled him so that Randy Flores could face a lefty (Colonel vs. lefties: .243/.308/.403—Flores vs. lefties: .263/.388/.447). The Colonel had only hurled 84 pitches, as well. Was he on an 85-pitch count? At any rate, Flores quickly walked the batter he was brought in to face and was subsequently yanked. Spring relieved him and promptly gave up two hits. Then, Villone of all pitchers bailed us out of the inning. Three relievers used in an inning that Wellemeyer appeared more than capable of finishing.

Hopefully, The Colonel picks up where he left off…

by bgh on Jul 24, 2008 12:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

hmm

Did you happen to be in the same seats on sunday? My wife and I sat next to someone 3 rows behind the pads dugout who had gotten tickets in advance hoping to see Jimmy ballgame’s return.

by Birds on the Matt on Jul 24, 2008 1:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Unfortunately, no

We had to return home, so I missed the once-in-a-lifetime experience of an Aaron Miles walk-off grand slam.

by bgh on Jul 24, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

when Carp comes back...

... in 2-3 weeks, then someone will be moved to the pen. when Waino comes back another couple of weeks after that, someone else will go.

i nominate Welly be moved first, because if he stays in the rotation it is strongly possible that his arm will give out and he’ll get hurt. he’s already had a career-high IP this year. if we move him to the pen, we get a power guy for the back-end of games, plus we could save his arm. remember, we’ve got him under team control for at least one more year; i’d like him to be healthy for it.

at this point, i really don’t see the need for a trade. even if get another coupe of pitchers, we are definitely long shots to make the playoffs. i say hold tight unless a potential move has implications for next year (e.g. Sherrill under team control through ‘10).

by kindred on Jul 24, 2008 12:30 PM EDT   0 recs

Great Ideas

Completely in line with what I was thinking.

Unlike a couple of the guys, I’m guessing Welly would be OK with a move to the pen. It could easily be positioned as “the team needs you to close and we want to save your arm because we think you could be a starter for us next year.”

Sherrill would be a good addition to that would hopefully solidify our pen next season.

by birdo rojo on Jul 24, 2008 1:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yep

I hope they move Welley to the ‘pen first. He could bring some stability to that area, and perhaps even be the closer?

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2008 1:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Someone won't move to the pen

Boggs will be sent to the minors. And he does need some more cooking so it’s not veteran/rook thing. When Wainwright comes back, someone will go to the pen…

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2008 1:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yes, but...

... i disagree with that idea. that was my point. i’d put Thompson in as #5 starter until Waino comes back, and move Welly to the pen. as ineffective as Welly’s been as a starter lately, i think Thompson might perform just as well in a starting role anyway.

plus we’d get a late-inning power arm in the pen.

by kindred on Jul 24, 2008 3:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

everybody dance now

kudos on the post title. i hope i’m not alone in that i really appreciate the clever pop-culture references around here and hope you guys keep them coming. suggestions for future titles: “right said fredbird”, “new kids on the (trading) block”, and “fine young comparables.”

by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2008 12:50 PM EDT   0 recs

"Chris Carp will make ya Jump Jump"

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 24, 2008 1:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Freudian Slip?

While reading your post I misread “these five inning starts are murder on the bullpen” as “these five inning starts are mulder on the bullpen” Either way, I had myself a good laugh at it.

Go crazy folks, go crazy!

by WizardofOz on Jul 24, 2008 12:52 PM EDT   0 recs

funny

i did the same thing.

by Tackle Box on Jul 24, 2008 1:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Even a 7 inning average

from the starters means the bullpen has to get through 2 innings. Right now they don’t look like they can do it. Actions speak louder than words and despite TLR’s “don’t blame the bullpen” rants, when he had the chance (necessity) of using them, he opted to let a tiring Lohse go the 8th, even with 9 relievers to choose from. His actions indicate that, like many of us, he has given them a vote of NO CONFIDENCE.

by vinniefromjersey on Jul 24, 2008 1:28 PM EDT   0 recs

Disagree

If they could get it down to 2 innings a night, Springer, Franklin, and McClellan could be rotated for those innings with Villone as the LOOGY. You could use Izzy and Jiminez in non-threatening situations to spell those other guys. Springer and McClellan have been the best relievers all season, and Mac really should be closing at this point.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 24, 2008 3:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Whatever we do

DO NOT PUT WAINWRIGHT IN THE BULLPEN!

Is it wrong of me to keep checking the stltoday site to see if AJ Burnett is at the airport?

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2008 1:28 PM EDT   0 recs

it's not wrong of you

I think it’s a strong possibility, even though I used to be opposed to that trade.
Valatan, you’ve convinced me that our true need is for a starter, I’ve finally come to my senses after that sensible post. and no, Waino should NOT go to the bullpen.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2008 1:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

im camped out there right now.

Watching all international flights.

by Evilfrog on Jul 24, 2008 5:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

There's smoke

Strauss reports the Cards “remain intrigued” by Burnett:

The Cardinals were among the estimated 15 teams that assigned scouts to watch Toronto Blue Jays righthander A.J. Burnett’s start Wednesday night against the Baltimore Orioles. The game held special significance to the Cardinals, who are among clubs pursuing Orioles lefthanded closer George Sherrill as well as Burnett.

Stark reports:

So the only pre-deadline intrigue involving this club is what the heck will become of A.J. Burnett. He’s eminently available. The Yankees, Phillies and Cardinals have checked in on him. But unless something changes fast, “I don’t see us moving him,” Ricciardi says. “I don’t have any talks going on with anybody to move A.J. Burnett.”

It’s possible we could be dealing three ace Cards by mid-August…

by bgh on Jul 24, 2008 5:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Some negative views on Burnett

in this week’s Sporting News from several scouts, including a quote from an N.L. scout who says when things go wrong he “blames everyone but himself” and needs to “look in the mirror.” An A.L. scout is quoted as saying he’ll “break your heart.” At the cost of what it wiould take to get and keep him, do we need him?

by vinniefromjersey on Jul 24, 2008 1:39 PM EDT   0 recs

he wouldn't hurt

look at our starting rotation: Welley and Looper could easily be moved back to the bullpen, and probably be even more effective. heck, maybe even move Pineiro to the ‘pen if it comes to that.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2008 1:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I would be worried about that weird contract

and his 10 trips to the DL than I would about any personal deficiencies…..

I also saw a rumor that the Cardinals are eyeing the returning Freddy Garcia. I think because they had success rejuvinating Chris Carpenter, they think they can do it again and again. You’d think they’d learned a lesson from Mulder and Clement. How about we look to sign a pitcher that’s not already broken?

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 24, 2008 1:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

+100

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

by cardsfanindenver on Jul 24, 2008 2:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Who cares?

What’s he realistically going to cost? I mean really—I’d rather throw a few hundred thousand dollars his way to see if he can make it work than trade good talent for someone like Burnett, who won’t be around next year anyway and is always one pitch from being done for the year with injury. If he doesn’t cost that much money, why not take a shot at him? Even if he stinks for one start it’s not like he’s costing the club prospects or large amounts of cash.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 24, 2008 3:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The problem is if he is given more than one start

after stinking. One or two losses in the standings are huge.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 24, 2008 6:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

So the Brewers and #1 on my shit list

I don’t like their attitude, cockiness, or idiotic posturing. at least the cubs players have a little bit more class (well, except for Zambrano).

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2008 1:43 PM EDT   0 recs

*are

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2008 1:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Just because they've beaten us the last few days

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 24, 2008 2:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No

Because of how they’ve acted. I know they are young, and for the most part “haven’t been there”, but this isn’t the NBA, you don’t act like fools, especially at somebody else’s park.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2008 2:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yep

that’s it. I can deal with them winning 3 in a row from us, but when you’re barely beating us, don’t act so cocky. maybe that’s what you do at Miller Park, but don’t do it on our turf.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2008 3:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What the hell are you talking about?

Hall admiring his home runs? Please, it’s part of the game at this point, and he wasn’t showing anybody up either. Don’t condemn the whole team because of one man’s actions. It’s not like they have a whole lot to be glowing about either. I think they’ve left about 47 guys on base in this series and aren’t hitting worth a crap with runners in scoring position. That’s why these games have been so close.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 24, 2008 3:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Aaron Miles

Admired his big shot, and I can hardly blame him for that. Ankiel did a little bat flip with one he hit last week. Pujols stands and admires every once in a while.

All I am getting at is let’s not pretend our guys are as pure as the wind driven snow at all times when it comes to this stuff. If we want to start WW3 because of something Hall did, then we better start making sure we are beyond reproach ourselves. Otherwise, I guess we’ll deserve one in the ear soon enough too.

by Merry CRasmus on Jul 24, 2008 4:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah but..

that was a “holy x%x($ $^(& I can’t believe i hit it that far.”

by Evilfrog on Jul 24, 2008 5:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

he did a lot more than admire

he looked directly into the Cards dugout as he stood at home. that’s bush league & deserves some 95mph heat right to the ribs.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jul 24, 2008 7:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

halladay rumors

i just read a rumor that the blue jays are quietly shopping halladay and we are one of the teams they called. Any chance there?

by ramesrd on Jul 24, 2008 1:46 PM EDT   0 recs

do they need

a lefty power hitter who can’t hit anymore?

by jeff_abs on Jul 24, 2008 1:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd give up a lot more

for a guy like Halladay. He’s ridiculously good…

by stlfan on Jul 24, 2008 1:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

seriously.

Halladay is one of those guys you DO sell the farm for. He’s signed through 2010 too I believe.

THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!

Seriously... what were Rich Harden's parents thinking?!?!?!

by stltrav09 on Jul 24, 2008 1:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And just think

every Jays fan dream from 2002 about Halliday and Carpenter at the top of the rotation dominating hitters would be realized…

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 24, 2008 2:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

correct

08:$10M, 09:$14.25M, 10:$15.75M

Source: mlbcontracts.blogspot.com

by john vb on Jul 24, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Very reasonable

...given the recent signings of Grade A pitchers. Plus, it would carry him through his age 33 season, right?

by bgh on Jul 24, 2008 6:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2008 1:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

they dont need rasmus, because vernon wells is locked up for a long time

so i dont know that we’d have enough to land him

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 24, 2008 2:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Really?

You don’t think Reyes and Duncan would be enough?

;-)

by punditmoi on Jul 24, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, J.P. Ricciardi is dumb enough not to see the value in Adam Dunn

So maybe he’s fleeceable (word?)

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 24, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He also took Rolen and Eckstein

so it’s not out of the realm of possibility.

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

by cardsfanindenver on Jul 24, 2008 2:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If he gave up Halladay

for Reyes and Duncan, that wouldn’t be a fleecing… it would be a butchering.

by punditmoi on Jul 24, 2008 2:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What if we had to add.....

Todd. Or Boggs. I’d like to hang on to Garicia, but I’d probably include any other SP spect.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2008 3:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

There is nobody I wouldn't ship out for Roy...

except maybe Raz. Anderson, Garcia, Todd, Perez, Mort…........you get the idea (not all of these guys obviously).

by cardzfanbub on Jul 24, 2008 3:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

We already have an ace.....

maybe two of them, in Carp and Waino. Selling the farm to strengthen a strenght isn’t very smart. We’d be better served finding bullpen help, or another stud bat, and going to war (next year) with our staff.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2008 3:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sorry

Misread your post. I agree, any decent package not including Rasmus.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2008 3:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It's a strength but if Roy Halladay is a 4 win upgrade

over say whatever our 5th starter would do, that’s still a 4 win upgrade. Does it matter if our starting pitching becomes a really awesome strength rather than just a good one? It’s not like MLB says, “Wait a sec. . . your starters are too good. We’ll have to dock you a few games since the rest of your team is just ok.”

by azruavatar on Jul 24, 2008 3:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yep...

... think of the Astros in ‘04-’05, with Clemens, Oswalt, Pettite. we’d be able to match those guys, and our offense will be better than theirs was without any upgrade. Halladay, Carp, Waino, Piniero, Welly is the best rotation in baseball.

that said, i don’t think there’s any way the Jay trade Halladay for anything less than Rasmus + a few good pieces. if he can be had for any 4 prospects but Raz, then Mo has to pull the trigger.

by kindred on Jul 24, 2008 3:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not to mention that winning in the postseason

is about having two dominant starters, a coule of hitters capable fo hitting isolated homeruns, and a shutdown bullen. The latter is probably out of the question, but improving the rotation will do it’s share toward improving the bullpen, and then we’d have two out of the three.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 24, 2008 9:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Anderson, Garcia, Todd, Perez, and Mort

I almost would give 4 out of those 5 for Halladay. I really wish I wouldn’t have read that. Now I am gonna just be waiting for it to be true.

The thing is, even at 14.25M and 15.75M, Halladay is one of the biggest bargains in baseball.

It also doesn’t hurt that he would go a long way towards helping the bullpen out because he rarely needs one, or so it seems.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 24, 2008 6:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd be willing.....

To move something like Todd, Reyes, Skip/Duncan, and maybe a lesser player.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2008 2:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

halladay will require rasmus

there’s no other way. think about it, would you give up halladay, if you had him, for four mid level prospects? i wouldnt

Rick Ankiel could throw out Chuck Norris. Easy.

by emrfg8 on Jul 24, 2008 3:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Rasmus, Todd, Kozma, Reyes, Duncan/Skip

Pull the trigger.

This is an ace pitcher that’s locked up through 2010. He would dominate in the NL. With a healthy rotation of Carp, Hallday, Wainwright, Garcia, Pineiro, you can start selling playoff tickets for the next 2 years.

THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!

Seriously... what were Rich Harden's parents thinking?!?!?!

by stltrav09 on Jul 24, 2008 3:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

if he's pissed off at life in Toronto

we might get lucky.

Four mid-level? No, but mid-levels and a couple high level (our only other two being Anderson and possibly Todd) might.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 24, 2008 3:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

actually it wouldn't

they dont need a center fielder.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 24, 2008 5:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

who says he is required to play centerfield?

you don’t think they’d rather have him in right than Matt Stairs?

by Tackle Box on Jul 24, 2008 5:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

See ya Colby...

I’ll give Rasmus, Anderson, & Garcia for Doc .

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jul 24, 2008 6:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I can't help feeling that if Albert has the GWRBI

in game one Monday night, we’re talking about a different subject today.

Our SP have held the Brewers to three runs in each game. That to me is a great performance. But as RB said yesterday, where has our offense gone?

The Brew Crew’s pitching has been better than ours. But we have a huge hole in our lineup that they don’t.

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Jul 24, 2008 2:18 PM EDT   0 recs

Yeah

And Albert’s out in the 6th last night was the best contact anyone made off of Sabathia all night, including the three hits. Just a little more, and that’s a completely different game…

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 24, 2008 2:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

well

our offense is all or nothing lately. last night’s game made pefect sense though. you can’t beat someone when your ace is pitching like that. and make no mistake, sabathia is their ace

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2008 3:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

They have two aces

(1) Ben Sheets, NL All-Star Game starter; and
(2) CC Sabathia, reigning AL Cy Young Award winner.

by bgh on Jul 24, 2008 3:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

how dar you list CC at #2

he’s better than Sheets, my friend

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2008 3:28 PM EDT to parent up