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The Rule of Three

I'm tired of writing about the bullpen. I really am. It seems sometimes that it's the only aspect of this team that I ever pay attention to. I've written about the Cardinals' pen problems over at my Rundown gig until I'm blue in the face. Wrote about it Monday. Wrote about it Tuesday. Hell, I'll probably write about it today too.

But you know what? As much of an asshole as I think Tony La Russa is a lot of the time, including during last night's postgame conference, the man absolutely had a point. When Derrick Goold of the P-D asked Tony about the bullpen problems, Tony responded with a tirade about the offense. Of course, I'm sure part of it was just to try and deflect attention from a difficult situation, but there was a lot of truth in what TLR said. If the Cards' offense had been able to put more than three lousy runs on the board against an average pitcher who was making his first start since coming off the disabled list, they probably wouldn't have found themselves in the position of relying on Kyle McClellan, or any other reliever for that matter, to try and be perfect just to keep the game tied. Come to think of it, if the bats had put some more runs on the board, we may not have seen Tony so afraid to go to the 'pen that he left Lohse out there when he was struggling because there aren't any other good options.

They started off well enough, of course. They took good at bats, they knocked a few hits around the park, and jumped out to an early lead. Then, as we've seen all too often this season, the bats simply went to sleep. The offense mustered only two hits after the third inning. Look, I love Jeff Suppan just as much as the next Cardinal fan, but he's not that guy. He's tough, but you've got to be able to get something going off of him.

I thought that maybe my impression was wrong, that the Cardinals don't just give up the ghost after about the third inning. Maybe it's just one of those things, I told myself. You're frustrated that the team seems to lose a lot of these games, and so you construct scenarios that don't really exist. So I headed over to Baseball Reference to check it out.

I wasn't just making it up.

In the first three innings, the Cardinals are an absolute juggernaut. They have an OBP of .374 and a SLG of .435. That's an OPS of over .800 for the whole team in the first three innings of the game. Not surprisingly, they've scored the bulk of their runs in innings one through three, with 185 of them coming in those frames. And to be perfectly frank, almost all of the damage has come in innings one and three. The second inning is actually one of their weakest. They've only managed to post a .723 OPS in the second this year. That's the single lowest inning OPS for the Cards. It seems a little bit random, but I think you could probably attribute it to the fact that we see the 7-9 hitters in the second inning an inordinate amount of the time. Even with the weak second, though, the Cards are fantastic in the first third of the game.

Unfortunately, once the Cards get into the fourth inning, they suddenly take a pretty significant downturn. In the middle third of the game, the Cardinals' OPS drops down almost forty points, to .772. The odd thing is that their slugging % actually goes up a couple of points; the loss is entirely in on base percentage. In innings 1-3, the Cards have drawn 148 walks this season. In innings 4-6, they've only taken 109 free passes. They've also garnered almost thirty less hits in the middle innings; 350 for 1-3 vs. 322 in 4-6. Altogether that's almost eighty less baserunners in innings 4-6 than in the first three innings.

This seems very odd to me. Ordinarily, you would expect to see hitters doing better against pitchers as the game goes on. The hitters get the benefit of having already seen the pitcher that evening; they should take better swings. In addition, the weakest part of the opponents' pitching staff is always the middle relief/ mop up type guys. When do you typically see those pitchers? Right in the middle of the game. Yet somehow the Cardinals become appreciably worse hitters in those innings. Overall, the Cards have scored only 151 runs in the middle innings.

In the late innings, it actually gets slightly worse, but that's not really all that surprising. Considering that you're likely seeing the other team's closer and setup relievers, you would expect the offensive numbers to go down in the last third of the game. (Unless, of course, you happen to be facing the Cards' bullpen, but that's a whole other issue.)

Overall, the Cards' OPS in innings 7-9 is .762, ten points lower than in the previous three innings. Again, though, when you consider the constant matchups and the calibre of pitcher you're likely facing, that's to be expected. I don't have the time to go through and look, but I would bet that pretty much every team hits worse when facing the back end of their opponents' bullpens.

What I really find puzzling is that dropoff in the middle. If the Cardinals performed in the middle innings to the same standard that they do in the first three, they would have a full three pythagorean wins on their record. I would be willing to bet it would be significantly more real wins.

Unfortunately, I don't have any idea how the team should go about fixing this issue. Why do they seem to lose patience in the middle innings? Even though they should be getting better looks at the opposing pitcher, the hitters just don't seem to have nearly as good of an approach that second and third time through the lineup. Their BABIP goes down significantly after the first three innings as well, which tells me that they aren't making the same quality of contact either. Is it simply a mental approach issue? Do these hitters let up after they put a run or two on the board? Or are they trying to do something different with their at bats, rather than just looking to get on base?

Personally, I always get irritated when I see Tony go off on a member of the media. Those guys have jobs to do, just like Tony himself does, and there's no reason for him to take his own frustrations about the team out on the scribes. When it comes down to it, Tony has it incredibly easy here. The kind of softballs he regularly enjoys here are absolutely nothing compared to the way they cover sports in New York, or Boston, or Philly, or even Chicago. But when he went on his little tirade last night, Tony had a definite point.

Where did the bats go? And for that matter, where do they go almost every night, right around the fourth inning?

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saying this w/out looking at the numbers, but

it seems like part of the problem is the lack of any OBP in the bottom of the order. yes, a fancy bat behind Pujols would be great, but if the Cards got some damage, at least on a more regular basis, from the 7-9 spots… Good teams manage to get offense out of the bottom third of the order, not their bread and butter, but enough to keep them going when the 3-4-5 guys have a night off.

by VanRam on Jul 23, 2008 9:33 AM EDT   0 recs

I was thinking about this earlier..

We have absolutely nothing in the 7-9 spots in the lineup. Even with Yadi batting 7th (and he’s having his best year at the plate), he’s followed by the pitcher then Iz2 or Ryan. That just doesn’t strike fear into anyone or any team.

Last night I couldn’t even get excited for the bottom of the 9th knowing it was going to be Miles, pinch hitter, Schumaker. Granted Miles and Schumaker have had some big hits to win games, those aren’t the 3 that I want up there. Sure, sure, you can’t pick to have your 3-4-5 hitters come up every bottom of the 9th, but Miles, what turned out to be Mather, and Schu? YIkes.

Unfortunately I don’t have much of a solution to offer, as all of our ideas have been exhausted. But to an extent I agree that the offense needs to be held accountable for some of these losses. I just kept telling myself throughout the 5-6-7-8 innings that “3 isn’t enough, 3 isn’t enough”. I just hope there is something we can do to spark the bottom third, and I really think Tony needs to start with putting the pitcher 9th.

PS Great post from a very interesting angle, RB.

by joecardsfan on Jul 23, 2008 9:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Bottom of the order suckitude

It could be something as simple as who is taking the majority of the at bats in the first 3 innings versus the second 3 innings. If the Cardinals score frequently or more often in the first inning (which RB established above) then it stands to reason that the top of the order will hit again in the first 3 innings, and probably more often in the 3rd inning than in the 2nd inning. If this is true, then the opposite will probably occur in the 4th-6th innings – the bottom of the order will get a disproportionate number of at bats and hence the decline in production in those innings.

The bottom of the order is an offensive black hole that is pulling/sucking the entire team in. The combined VORP of Kennedy and Izturis is -3.1…..worse than replacement level. There’s no excuse for not playing Miles at second every day and I think one could make the same argument regarding Izturis, although I’m not certain the alternative there will be significantly better. He’s unlikely to be any worse, however.

by CURVEBALL on Jul 23, 2008 12:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

So what you're saying is...

the 1-5 spots in the lineup are batting twice in the first three innings while the 6-9 spots are batting twice in the second three innings…I think we’ve found the problem…now for the solution?

by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 1:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm saying....

that is one possible explanation (and a relatively simple one). The cause may be more complex, however.

I’m also saying (preaching to the choir) that the bottom of the order, which typically consists of the pitcher and middle infielders, is terrible. The Kennedy signing, in particular, was horrendous in retrospect. I’d much rather have Edgar Gonzales at second base right now (current OPS of .839 and OPS+ of 129). He never even got a shot in St. Louis.

by CURVEBALL on Jul 23, 2008 1:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

But Kennedy

was “a winner,” “a veteran”...a teammate of David Eckstein and Scott Spiezio, for chrissakes! All the things you look for in a player who can’t hit worth a damn.

by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 2:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Really good stuff, RB

the pen shouldn’t be immune from criticism but the team has scored 6 runs in 2 games—only 1 of them coming after the 3rd inning. I think the photoshopped Tony/Baghdad Bob pics were hilarious but there was a lot of truth in what Tony said.

Also, the discernible difference between the first 3 and second 3 innings of the game is mystifying. You’re right that it shouldn’t be that surprising that we’re not as good in the last 3—we’re often facing well-rested, and good relievers. Unfortunately, we never get to hit against our bullpen. But we should be scoring at least as many, and probably more, runs against pitchers in innings 4-6. I’m not sure what the explanation could be but it goes a long way toward explaining what’s happened each of the last 2 nights.

by chuckb on Jul 23, 2008 9:37 AM EDT   0 recs

Approach at the plate?

Is there a demonstrable difference in what the batters are doing at the plate? Are they swinging at the first pitch more or less often the second go-around? Are they taking more pitches? Is there a strategic approach that is causing this?

by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 10:35 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My opinion

No stats to back it up, just how I see it.

We usually have a good gameplan coming out, and our hitters are looking for something early and hitting it. If they don’t get it, they foul off until they do or take a walk. However, as the game goes on, the opposing pitcher adjusts and our hitters don’t counter-adjust. The McRae bashers might point to him, it’s hard to say.

Another option (which I don’t believe) is that once we get a decent-sized lead (say, 2 or 3 runs) our offense becomes complacent. Sorry, I just don’t buy it.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 23, 2008 9:45 AM EDT   0 recs

I think you might have hit on

something, Mr Redbird with our hitters not re-adjusting to pitchers. Hell, you can see it. You see wasted at bats every night (even with Pujols). I’ve complained of this before. May not be the root cause, but has definitely contributed to an overworked and downfallen bullpen.

by ridgesee on Jul 23, 2008 10:04 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Plus starting pitchers tend to settle in

after the first couple innings, although I don’t think that’s the whole reason for the struggles by a mile. It just seems like our hitters lose patience…even Albert last night swung at a marginal 3-0 pitch, then again in his next AB swung at a marginal first pitch (but who can blame him for swinging at anything straight remotely close to the zone?).

by jim of beam on Jul 23, 2008 9:51 AM EDT   0 recs

In my opinion,

for what its worth (nothing), I think the middle inning lack of offense is about their approach. It seems that whenenver they get a small lead they try to tack on a few more runs with one swing of the bat.
Even the future greatest hitter of all time tries to hit it out of the park instead of his line drive doubles. Not to nitpick, and remember I know nothing, in the last 2 games alone, I think he could have driven in a couple of more runs, but seemed to be trying to hit the deep one.

by chicagocardfan on Jul 23, 2008 9:52 AM EDT   0 recs

The Future Greatest Hitter of All-Time

He does better the more times he faces an opposing pitcher:

vs. P 1st Time in Game: 335/.447/.612/1.059
vs. P 2nd Time in Game: .364/.506/.515/1.021
vs. P 3rd Time in Game: .419/.507/.710/1.217

I realize you are talking about the last two games only, but his season numbers show him with ahigher BA and OBP the second and third time versus a pitcher.

by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 10:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Extra Tidbit

The lack of offense in 4-6 seems even more troubling to me because you might expect to see a pinch hitter in those innings (5 and 6 in particular, not 4 so much…).

Also, if someone has time, I’d love to know how the 1-3/4-6 discrepancy for the cardinals compares to other teams 1-3/4-6 splits…

by duncans_army on Jul 23, 2008 9:53 AM EDT   0 recs

I agree with TLR.....

In games like last night, I blame the offense. We weren’t going against Sabathia or Sheets, we were going against Suppan, and he was pretty darn average all night. When you don’t put a team away, on occassion, games are going to end like last night.

Not that there is much of a market, but I think SS is our biggest need. Kennedy/Miles/Ryan can do a respectable job at 2B, but we really need another decent bat to plug in at SS. I’d even be willing to move Kozma for a SS, so long as whoever we got back would be in STL for at least another 2 seasons, and was a clear upgrade.

The bullpen. I don’t think it is as bad as some have made it out to be. Springer is still money. Kmac has been VERY solid for most of the year. I trust Thompson to do his job. And Villone has been decent when he isn’t asked to pitch to everybody. We all know Franklin and Izzy have and are struggling. But we also know that both will be on the roster all season. Like it or not, agree with it or not, there aren’t many vets, performing at there level, or contending teams that just get cut. Same with Kennedy. And same with Izturis (when you consider expectations). I don’t have the answer here. Be nice to get a Street, or a Sherrill, but I don’t want to break the bank for either.

One thing that scares me is that I think we have alot of streaky, all or nothing type hitters in the lineup. The stats may not support this, but it sure seems to me like Ankiel and Ludwick, and to a lesser extent Glaus fit this criteria. I really think this plays a large part in our struggles at times. This was kind of why I was for moving for Holliday. He seems to be more in the Pujols mode, in that he’d be a little more consistent. I just think an OF of Holliday/Rasmus/AnkielorLudwick would be more consistent then a lineup of Ludwick/Rasmus/Ankiel.

Very frustrating losses the last two nights. We really need to find a way to win at least one of the next two games. I think we’ve hit Sheets pretty well in the past, so if we could sneak out a win tonight, maybe we could salvage a pretty remarkable split by winning tomorrow.

Oh, and if I were TLR, I’d have somebody on the Brew Crew plunked tonight. Not only b/c of Hall’s antics, but their little celebration and untucking of their shirts, on our field, after the game last night. They are getting a little cocky, and I think it is time to send a message.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 23, 2008 9:58 AM EDT   0 recs

+1

On the plunking even though I don’t think the Cards will.

....my quick smells like french toast...

by mstreeter06 on Jul 23, 2008 11:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

the only things I would disagree about on that are:

1) if half of the bullpen isn’t doing the job, it doesnt matter how well the other half is doing, you still aren’t going to have a decent bullpen.
2) Miles is doing decent at 2B, he is the only part of that combo that makes it look good at all. I still can’t figure out how AK is hitting .272. It doesn’t matter though, because his OBP is just horrendous, and when you are being outslugged by 30 points by Aaron freakin Miles, you know you have problems.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 23, 2008 6:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

For me the problem is the 9-1-2 Guys and Batting the Pitcher 8th.

9-1-2 is the problem spot in this lineup right now and I think it is due to the pitcher batting 8th and the respective roles of the 9-1-2 hitters.

In the 9 hole Iz2 is basically useless. He would be useless in any position in the lineup, but if the theory is getting another person on base for Pujols, well, Iz2 can’t be that answer. If you are batting your worst bat in the 8th spot, that is where Iz2 should bat because he is our worst bat most nights (except when Piniero pitches). I love his defense, but at some point you just have to say enough.

Then, you have the 1-2 guys in the middle innings. I am not sure what the stats are, but I know they are bad for those 2 spots in the middle innings. Whoever is in those slots simply are not getting on base for our 3-4-5 guys to drive in. There is a reason our 4-5-6 guys have more RBIs than Pujols. It is because they are driving in Pujols himself after Pujols gets on base. Our best hitter should not be the table setter.

Skip, for as well as he is playing, is simply not setting the table in the middle innings. Our 2 hitter, whoever it is, is a slugger most of the time who is just as likely to strike out/hit a home run, than take a walk or get a single. Ank and Luddy are hitting a lot of home runs in that 2 hole, but they are not getting on base the rest of the time, especially in the middle innings. Skip and the 2 hitter are frequently batting with 2 out or are trying to drive runners in or whatnot and are not in their traditional 1-2 role of table setting.

Anyway, the 9-1-2 is the problem spot in this lineup. I like batting the pitcher 8th and I think it is somewhat responsible for keeping us in the race, but I would bet my bottom dollar that the middle innings statistical anomaly is tied to the pitcher batting 8th and the effect it has on the lineup turnover in the middle innings.

by Egyptian on Jul 23, 2008 10:01 AM EDT   0 recs

Izturis

Iz2 is useless against righties. He bats quite well against lefties.
He must sit against right handers starters and be in the line-up against lefties

by Brianzaredbird on Jul 23, 2008 10:09 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

good news on izturis

He is only going to bat from the right handed side from now on! No more switch hitting! I think he most of started reading VEB

Shortstop Cesar Izturis has decided to stop switch-hitting in an attempt to raise his average from .228. Izturis hit righthanded three times Wednesday against righthander pitcher Jeff Suppan. “I’m more comfortable there,” Izturis said. “Look at the numbers.” Izturis was hitting .294 from the right side against lefthanded pitching, and he was batting .192 from the left side against righthanded pitching. In his career, the numbers have been closer, but “I’m going to stay righthanded now,” he said, “and see what happens.”... Outfielder Brian Barton will report today to Memphis to begin his rehab assignment. Barton has been on the disabled list with a fracture in his right hand. As a Rule 5 draft pick, Barton must remain on the Cardinals’ major-league roster all season for them to gain control of his rights. As with other major leaguers, the rules allow for Barton to go on a 20-day rehab assignment without passing through waivers or using an option.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/329D7A8F4D5602F18625748F0010CCA5?OpenDocument

by Evilfrog on Jul 23, 2008 10:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Funny

If you read the Rotoworld sidebar, they apparently think this idea is stupid.

by saladdays on Jul 23, 2008 10:45 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah...

citing his career splits, and ignoring this seasons: .500 OPS as a lefty and .733 OPS as a righty. I’m not saying he’s going to be able to hit Righties RH’d, but he probably won’t be worse than the .500 OPS he is currently sporting LH’d.

by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 11:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I am skeptical myself

just because he can hit lefties batting right handed, doesn’t mean he can hit righties batting right handed. Are there any other players who have gone down this path with success? Don’t know, just curious.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jul 23, 2008 11:10 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think the idea is...

he can’t do any worse (see OPS .500 as a lefty this season). He may not hit well…but even a .600 OPS would vastly improve what he and Ryan (OPS < .530) are doing against righties.

by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 11:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I believe both JD and Stephen Drew were once switch hitters

Not in the majors, but through or into college which is still pretty deep into their baseball playing lives.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jul 23, 2008 12:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

thats what I dont get

I even thought about writing them a bit, but they already know.

career stats dont matter if they guy is losing his skill or is in a big slump or whatever.
this year he has been good one way, terrible the other.

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles

Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Jul 23, 2008 3:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think they think

it’s stupid. They think that he’s a crappy hitter no matter where he’s standing.

And they’re probably right about that.

by liam on Jul 23, 2008 2:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

#2 has been great

Our #2 hole has an OPS of .839, which is the second-best in all of baseball. Their OBP of .355 is sixth-best in the big leagues.

Our #1 hole hitters have an OBP of only .345, which is in the middle of the MLB pack, but is not horrendous.

The #9 hole has a pitcher-esque .312 OBP thanks to our continuing to play Izsuckis.

by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 10:42 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My take

In no way am I an expert on the situation. I am not saying anything close to that. But I have been around enough young teams in high school and college baseball that may lend me to believe that these guys get that 2, 3, 4 run lead and think it’s enough. I know they are professionals and this is their job, but the teams I have been around react seemingly similar believing that the runs already scored are enough.

Otherwise, the only take I have on this is that maybe the pitchers are making adjustments to our less experienced hitters and the hitters aren’t returning the favor. They might not be adjusting their game plan as to what the pitchers are changing in their’s.

That being said, it seems as though McRae has a great game plan against the pitchers out of the gate. When we faced Soup early, we attacked. McRae seemed to know that Jeff needed to get back in the swing of things and would want to get ahead early, that’s his game. So, the cardinal hitters attacked. My question is, where are the adjustments? Is McRae talking to these guys during the game and they just aren’t responding, or are there no mid game changes to the approach?

Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!

by joshbaz12 on Jul 23, 2008 10:29 AM EDT   0 recs

Somebody

ought to check other teams to see if it’s just the cards or a systematic thing. Otherwise this discussion is moot.

In other news, i will not be that somebody.

by spencegrif on Jul 23, 2008 10:30 AM EDT   0 recs

I looked up total runs

scored by inning of about 8 teams, and all but 2 scored more in innings 4-6. One of the 2 that didn’t had a huge spike in the 3rd inning, otherwise would have fallen the same.

by chicagocardfan on Jul 23, 2008 10:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Alternative post-game news conference scenario

PressGuy: Tony, please explain to us your decision to leave Kyle Lohse in the game last night when you had nine relievers stacked in the bullpen.

TLR: He was the best pitcher we had. He should have been an All-Star. Didn’t you see him putting up all those zeroes? The problem is our offense, we just don’t score enough runs after the early innings. Puts too much pressure on our bullpen.

PressGuy: Well, Tony, a three-run lead after six innings is a three-run lead whether it is 3-0 or 10-7. You are aware that the entire league is hitting for a .913 OPS against Lohse after the sixth inning aren’t you? Did you know when you sent him back out in the 8th after he struggled in the 7th that the league hits for a .455 average against him in the 8th innning? Seems like you had nine different pitchers with a better chance for success than Lohse.

TLR: You can’t talk to me like that. I say Lohse had the best chance of succeeding – end of discussion [leaves]

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jul 23, 2008 10:34 AM EDT   0 recs

Press Guy: If this is the case, Tony

then why do you insist on keeping 13 pitchers on the active roster? If the offense is the problem, why do you start Adam Kennedy and allow him to have 4 PA’s? Why do you not pinch-hit for him when facing Brian Shouse, a tough lefty, knowing that Kennedy is all but useless against lefties, particularly good ones? Oh yeah, it’s because you have 13 pitchers on the roster and have NO ONE ON THE BENCH WHO CAN PINCH HIT FOR KENNEDY!!!!!!!!!

TLR: You’re stupid!

by chuckb on Jul 23, 2008 10:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

HA!

Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!

by joshbaz12 on Jul 23, 2008 10:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hear hear

If he’s going to use more than half of the roster on pitchers, he might as well use them. Either way, having 13 pitchers on the roster is retarded.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 23, 2008 10:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Okay,

with the current situation (Duncan on the DL, Mather up, Rasmus hurt), who you wanna bring up from Memphis as an additional bench player? Stavinoha?

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 23, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Add to that the bullpen usage

We’ve leaned heavily on them all year long since it seems like El Pineiro, Looper, and Wellemeyer all average fewer than 6 IP per start. That’s not even calculating the rookies, either.

by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 11:01 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

There are still probably half a dozen guys in Memphis

who could be of more value than the 13th pitcher. If the staff gets worn down you can always summon an extra pitcher within 24 hours. Pretty hard to make a pinch hitter appear only when you need one.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jul 23, 2008 11:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If he is going to carry 13 pitchers, he should use them

I guess I don’t understand where it has been a problem to have 13 pitchers. I think we both agree that if you are going to leave your starter in too long, then the purpose of having the extra arm is defeated. I don’t think anyone who watched the game does not think that TLR left Lohse in too long.

Most games require only two pinch hitters. Granted, with the way TLR manages, that isn’t always the ceiling. Is there a point where we’ve been lacking a bat off the bench due to the roster decision?

by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 11:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Back in April and May...

when he was constantly pulling Barton out for Schumaker in the middle innings. There were a couple of instances where we ended up using our last bench player…ohter than that???

You can count me amongst the group that KNOWS TLR left Lohse in one innint too long…though the two runs did score with two out…

by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 12:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

How many relievers were we carrying in April and May?

I believe this is about having eight relievers and a short bench versus seven relievers and a long(er) bench. To my knowledge, he hasn’t gone quite so sub-happy since carrying the extra hurler.

by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 2:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hilarious

That YOU would post this after posting the community rules earlier this morning.

“You’re stupid!”

Thank you for the trip down memory lane back to junior high.

by SoonerfanTU on Jul 23, 2008 11:01 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Uh, Sooner...

HC was “quoting” an imaginary Tony La Russa in an imaginary post-game show… HC wasn’t calling anybody stupid…

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 23, 2008 11:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It was a grave insult to that imaginary reporter

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 23, 2008 12:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not unique problem

I have been following the Red Sox almost as much as the Cards (although i always watch the Cards if both are playing at the same time.). I’ve noticed much of the same problems the Sox are having as the ones you are talking about here. They have a bullpen that has been brutal this season, except for Papelbon. Everyone else has been a disaster and blown many games. Offensively, their team has been nothing but streak hitters this year: Ellsbury, Youkilis, Pedroia, Oritz, Ramirez, Drew. Usually one or two are hot as hell and the rest can’t hit for sh-t. They also leave an absolute ton of runners on base, and usually it comes back to haunt them. So Cards fans…....take solace, you aren’t alone. If the Sox had a reliable setup man, they’d be cruising. The ‘pen is the key to winning – especially those eighth and ninth frames. In today’s game, it’s almost everything..

The bad news is that we don’t have a Papelbon. We have nobody that’s an automatic or near-automatic shut-down closer and this has trickled down to affect the whole squad. LaRussa and the team knows this, of course, and trust me – it affects play and decision-making. You saw it last night. When you can’t feel confident late in the game, it puts unwanted pressure on everyone else and, sadly, most guys aren’t big-time pressure players. I’m not saying a Papelbon or a Rivera will solve all problems, but it will go a long way…...more than you think.

Regardless of what the hitters do, playoff teams simply don’t blow three-run leads in the eighth and ninth innings as frequently as the Cardinals have this year. Correct the closer problem (even if it takes a Wainwright to do it next year), have a decent setup guy (which we probably have) and a lot of these other problems will go away.

by ccthemovieman on Jul 23, 2008 10:34 AM EDT   0 recs

Very good post

The only problem I have, is that if we get a bullpen guy, who will be the closer? The best two guys we have in the pen are Mclellan and Springer. I guarantee Tony won’t use either as the closer as long as we have Franklin and IzzHe. My question to everyone on VEB is, what would we do with three setup guys?

Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!

by joshbaz12 on Jul 23, 2008 10:40 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Even TLR can't watch subpar

performances from Franklin and Izzy forever, can he, without making a change? Can he?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 23, 2008 10:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

IzzHe?

IzzThere a reason you are writing his name like that?

by saladdays on Jul 23, 2008 10:47 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not necessarily

My fingers won’t type his real name. They refuse. Seemed like a dumb alternative so I took it. Kinda stupid isn’t it?

Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!

by joshbaz12 on Jul 23, 2008 10:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess I'm thinking of next year, Josh, because

we have no legitimate closer right now…..and none on the horizon. apparently.

Some big move has to be made sometime before next season. The Birds’ brass doesn’t seem to want to address this issue this year, which probably cost us a playoff spot.

by ccthemovieman on Jul 23, 2008 11:10 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Per MLBTR...

the Cards are very interested in the O’s Sherril. I hope if we get him he’s used appropriately…as in whenever we face the other teams best left-handed hitter(s) in the 7th, 8th or 9th innings…and not reserved as only a closer.

by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 11:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

so whats a fair offer for sherril?

Craig, Ottavino, duncan/reyes/other throw in(s) sounds good to me (based on what the D-backs gave up to get Rauch)

At least he's better than Esteban Yan.

by jacksonian on Jul 23, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Eh

just trade pujols for sherrill straight up. That way we don’t have to hear anymore about pujols not having any protection in the lineup.

Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!

by joshbaz12 on Jul 23, 2008 12:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I have no idea...

I’d hate to give up Craig…he looks like a decent 3-sacker. The others you mention can go…but surely won’t be enough – I’d probably start with that and see if maybe Stavinoah might work.

by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 12:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Saw the MLBTR

thing as well. That’s been floating around on a couple sites in Baltimore for a while as they saw a scout in the stands. I hear what you’re saying movieman, but if perez can figure the slider out, maybe we have the closer we crave. You know that if there’s a guy in the organization that MIGHT be able to fill the spot, they’re gonna lean towards him.

Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!

by joshbaz12 on Jul 23, 2008 11:26 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Double true.

My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

by Alxfritz on Jul 23, 2008 10:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Mr. Pibb + Red Vines = Crazy Delicious

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jul 23, 2008 10:54 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh, 2005 refrences will always be in style.

you will never date yourself with those, alex.

My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

by Alxfritz on Jul 23, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs