The Rule of Three
by the red baron on Jul 23, 2008 9:27 AM EDT
339 comments
I'm tired of writing about the bullpen. I really am. It seems sometimes that it's the only aspect of this team that I ever pay attention to. I've written about the Cardinals' pen problems over at my Rundown gig until I'm blue in the face. Wrote about it Monday. Wrote about it Tuesday. Hell, I'll probably write about it today too.
But you know what? As much of an asshole as I think Tony La Russa is a lot of the time, including during last night's postgame conference, the man absolutely had a point. When Derrick Goold of the P-D asked Tony about the bullpen problems, Tony responded with a tirade about the offense. Of course, I'm sure part of it was just to try and deflect attention from a difficult situation, but there was a lot of truth in what TLR said. If the Cards' offense had been able to put more than three lousy runs on the board against an average pitcher who was making his first start since coming off the disabled list, they probably wouldn't have found themselves in the position of relying on Kyle McClellan, or any other reliever for that matter, to try and be perfect just to keep the game tied. Come to think of it, if the bats had put some more runs on the board, we may not have seen Tony so afraid to go to the 'pen that he left Lohse out there when he was struggling because there aren't any other good options.
They started off well enough, of course. They took good at bats, they knocked a few hits around the park, and jumped out to an early lead. Then, as we've seen all too often this season, the bats simply went to sleep. The offense mustered only two hits after the third inning. Look, I love Jeff Suppan just as much as the next Cardinal fan, but he's not that guy. He's tough, but you've got to be able to get something going off of him.
I thought that maybe my impression was wrong, that the Cardinals don't just give up the ghost after about the third inning. Maybe it's just one of those things, I told myself. You're frustrated that the team seems to lose a lot of these games, and so you construct scenarios that don't really exist. So I headed over to Baseball Reference to check it out.
I wasn't just making it up.
In the first three innings, the Cardinals are an absolute juggernaut. They have an OBP of .374 and a SLG of .435. That's an OPS of over .800 for the whole team in the first three innings of the game. Not surprisingly, they've scored the bulk of their runs in innings one through three, with 185 of them coming in those frames. And to be perfectly frank, almost all of the damage has come in innings one and three. The second inning is actually one of their weakest. They've only managed to post a .723 OPS in the second this year. That's the single lowest inning OPS for the Cards. It seems a little bit random, but I think you could probably attribute it to the fact that we see the 7-9 hitters in the second inning an inordinate amount of the time. Even with the weak second, though, the Cards are fantastic in the first third of the game.
Unfortunately, once the Cards get into the fourth inning, they suddenly take a pretty significant downturn. In the middle third of the game, the Cardinals' OPS drops down almost forty points, to .772. The odd thing is that their slugging % actually goes up a couple of points; the loss is entirely in on base percentage. In innings 1-3, the Cards have drawn 148 walks this season. In innings 4-6, they've only taken 109 free passes. They've also garnered almost thirty less hits in the middle innings; 350 for 1-3 vs. 322 in 4-6. Altogether that's almost eighty less baserunners in innings 4-6 than in the first three innings.
This seems very odd to me. Ordinarily, you would expect to see hitters doing better against pitchers as the game goes on. The hitters get the benefit of having already seen the pitcher that evening; they should take better swings. In addition, the weakest part of the opponents' pitching staff is always the middle relief/ mop up type guys. When do you typically see those pitchers? Right in the middle of the game. Yet somehow the Cardinals become appreciably worse hitters in those innings. Overall, the Cards have scored only 151 runs in the middle innings.
In the late innings, it actually gets slightly worse, but that's not really all that surprising. Considering that you're likely seeing the other team's closer and setup relievers, you would expect the offensive numbers to go down in the last third of the game. (Unless, of course, you happen to be facing the Cards' bullpen, but that's a whole other issue.)
Overall, the Cards' OPS in innings 7-9 is .762, ten points lower than in the previous three innings. Again, though, when you consider the constant matchups and the calibre of pitcher you're likely facing, that's to be expected. I don't have the time to go through and look, but I would bet that pretty much every team hits worse when facing the back end of their opponents' bullpens.
What I really find puzzling is that dropoff in the middle. If the Cardinals performed in the middle innings to the same standard that they do in the first three, they would have a full three pythagorean wins on their record. I would be willing to bet it would be significantly more real wins.
Unfortunately, I don't have any idea how the team should go about fixing this issue. Why do they seem to lose patience in the middle innings? Even though they should be getting better looks at the opposing pitcher, the hitters just don't seem to have nearly as good of an approach that second and third time through the lineup. Their BABIP goes down significantly after the first three innings as well, which tells me that they aren't making the same quality of contact either. Is it simply a mental approach issue? Do these hitters let up after they put a run or two on the board? Or are they trying to do something different with their at bats, rather than just looking to get on base?
Personally, I always get irritated when I see Tony go off on a member of the media. Those guys have jobs to do, just like Tony himself does, and there's no reason for him to take his own frustrations about the team out on the scribes. When it comes down to it, Tony has it incredibly easy here. The kind of softballs he regularly enjoys here are absolutely nothing compared to the way they cover sports in New York, or Boston, or Philly, or even Chicago. But when he went on his little tirade last night, Tony had a definite point.
Where did the bats go? And for that matter, where do they go almost every night, right around the fourth inning?
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saying this w/out looking at the numbers, but
it seems like part of the problem is the lack of any OBP in the bottom of the order. yes, a fancy bat behind Pujols would be great, but if the Cards got some damage, at least on a more regular basis, from the 7-9 spots… Good teams manage to get offense out of the bottom third of the order, not their bread and butter, but enough to keep them going when the 3-4-5 guys have a night off.
by VanRam on Jul 23, 2008 9:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking about this earlier..
We have absolutely nothing in the 7-9 spots in the lineup. Even with Yadi batting 7th (and he’s having his best year at the plate), he’s followed by the pitcher then Iz2 or Ryan. That just doesn’t strike fear into anyone or any team.
Last night I couldn’t even get excited for the bottom of the 9th knowing it was going to be Miles, pinch hitter, Schumaker. Granted Miles and Schumaker have had some big hits to win games, those aren’t the 3 that I want up there. Sure, sure, you can’t pick to have your 3-4-5 hitters come up every bottom of the 9th, but Miles, what turned out to be Mather, and Schu? YIkes.
Unfortunately I don’t have much of a solution to offer, as all of our ideas have been exhausted. But to an extent I agree that the offense needs to be held accountable for some of these losses. I just kept telling myself throughout the 5-6-7-8 innings that “3 isn’t enough, 3 isn’t enough”. I just hope there is something we can do to spark the bottom third, and I really think Tony needs to start with putting the pitcher 9th.
PS Great post from a very interesting angle, RB.
by joecardsfan on Jul 23, 2008 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bottom of the order suckitude
It could be something as simple as who is taking the majority of the at bats in the first 3 innings versus the second 3 innings. If the Cardinals score frequently or more often in the first inning (which RB established above) then it stands to reason that the top of the order will hit again in the first 3 innings, and probably more often in the 3rd inning than in the 2nd inning. If this is true, then the opposite will probably occur in the 4th-6th innings – the bottom of the order will get a disproportionate number of at bats and hence the decline in production in those innings.
The bottom of the order is an offensive black hole that is pulling/sucking the entire team in. The combined VORP of Kennedy and Izturis is -3.1…..worse than replacement level. There’s no excuse for not playing Miles at second every day and I think one could make the same argument regarding Izturis, although I’m not certain the alternative there will be significantly better. He’s unlikely to be any worse, however.
by CURVEBALL on Jul 23, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what you're saying is...
the 1-5 spots in the lineup are batting twice in the first three innings while the 6-9 spots are batting twice in the second three innings…I think we’ve found the problem…now for the solution?
by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying....
that is one possible explanation (and a relatively simple one). The cause may be more complex, however.
I’m also saying (preaching to the choir) that the bottom of the order, which typically consists of the pitcher and middle infielders, is terrible. The Kennedy signing, in particular, was horrendous in retrospect. I’d much rather have Edgar Gonzales at second base right now (current OPS of .839 and OPS+ of 129). He never even got a shot in St. Louis.
by CURVEBALL on Jul 23, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Kennedy
was “a winner,” “a veteran”...a teammate of David Eckstein and Scott Spiezio, for chrissakes! All the things you look for in a player who can’t hit worth a damn.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really good stuff, RB
the pen shouldn’t be immune from criticism but the team has scored 6 runs in 2 games—only 1 of them coming after the 3rd inning. I think the photoshopped Tony/Baghdad Bob pics were hilarious but there was a lot of truth in what Tony said.
Also, the discernible difference between the first 3 and second 3 innings of the game is mystifying. You’re right that it shouldn’t be that surprising that we’re not as good in the last 3—we’re often facing well-rested, and good relievers. Unfortunately, we never get to hit against our bullpen. But we should be scoring at least as many, and probably more, runs against pitchers in innings 4-6. I’m not sure what the explanation could be but it goes a long way toward explaining what’s happened each of the last 2 nights.
by chuckb on Jul 23, 2008 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Approach at the plate?
Is there a demonstrable difference in what the batters are doing at the plate? Are they swinging at the first pitch more or less often the second go-around? Are they taking more pitches? Is there a strategic approach that is causing this?
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My opinion
No stats to back it up, just how I see it.
We usually have a good gameplan coming out, and our hitters are looking for something early and hitting it. If they don’t get it, they foul off until they do or take a walk. However, as the game goes on, the opposing pitcher adjusts and our hitters don’t counter-adjust. The McRae bashers might point to him, it’s hard to say.
Another option (which I don’t believe) is that once we get a decent-sized lead (say, 2 or 3 runs) our offense becomes complacent. Sorry, I just don’t buy it.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Jul 23, 2008 9:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think you might have hit on
something, Mr Redbird with our hitters not re-adjusting to pitchers. Hell, you can see it. You see wasted at bats every night (even with Pujols). I’ve complained of this before. May not be the root cause, but has definitely contributed to an overworked and downfallen bullpen.
by ridgesee on Jul 23, 2008 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus starting pitchers tend to settle in
after the first couple innings, although I don’t think that’s the whole reason for the struggles by a mile. It just seems like our hitters lose patience…even Albert last night swung at a marginal 3-0 pitch, then again in his next AB swung at a marginal first pitch (but who can blame him for swinging at anything straight remotely close to the zone?).
by jim of beam on Jul 23, 2008 9:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In my opinion,
for what its worth (nothing), I think the middle inning lack of offense is about their approach. It seems that whenenver they get a small lead they try to tack on a few more runs with one swing of the bat.
Even the future greatest hitter of all time tries to hit it out of the park instead of his line drive doubles. Not to nitpick, and remember I know nothing, in the last 2 games alone, I think he could have driven in a couple of more runs, but seemed to be trying to hit the deep one.
by chicagocardfan on Jul 23, 2008 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Future Greatest Hitter of All-Time
He does better the more times he faces an opposing pitcher:
vs. P 1st Time in Game: 335/.447/.612/1.059
vs. P 2nd Time in Game: .364/.506/.515/1.021
vs. P 3rd Time in Game: .419/.507/.710/1.217
I realize you are talking about the last two games only, but his season numbers show him with ahigher BA and OBP the second and third time versus a pitcher.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Extra Tidbit
The lack of offense in 4-6 seems even more troubling to me because you might expect to see a pinch hitter in those innings (5 and 6 in particular, not 4 so much…).
Also, if someone has time, I’d love to know how the 1-3/4-6 discrepancy for the cardinals compares to other teams 1-3/4-6 splits…
by duncans_army on Jul 23, 2008 9:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with TLR.....
In games like last night, I blame the offense. We weren’t going against Sabathia or Sheets, we were going against Suppan, and he was pretty darn average all night. When you don’t put a team away, on occassion, games are going to end like last night.
Not that there is much of a market, but I think SS is our biggest need. Kennedy/Miles/Ryan can do a respectable job at 2B, but we really need another decent bat to plug in at SS. I’d even be willing to move Kozma for a SS, so long as whoever we got back would be in STL for at least another 2 seasons, and was a clear upgrade.
The bullpen. I don’t think it is as bad as some have made it out to be. Springer is still money. Kmac has been VERY solid for most of the year. I trust Thompson to do his job. And Villone has been decent when he isn’t asked to pitch to everybody. We all know Franklin and Izzy have and are struggling. But we also know that both will be on the roster all season. Like it or not, agree with it or not, there aren’t many vets, performing at there level, or contending teams that just get cut. Same with Kennedy. And same with Izturis (when you consider expectations). I don’t have the answer here. Be nice to get a Street, or a Sherrill, but I don’t want to break the bank for either.
One thing that scares me is that I think we have alot of streaky, all or nothing type hitters in the lineup. The stats may not support this, but it sure seems to me like Ankiel and Ludwick, and to a lesser extent Glaus fit this criteria. I really think this plays a large part in our struggles at times. This was kind of why I was for moving for Holliday. He seems to be more in the Pujols mode, in that he’d be a little more consistent. I just think an OF of Holliday/Rasmus/AnkielorLudwick would be more consistent then a lineup of Ludwick/Rasmus/Ankiel.
Very frustrating losses the last two nights. We really need to find a way to win at least one of the next two games. I think we’ve hit Sheets pretty well in the past, so if we could sneak out a win tonight, maybe we could salvage a pretty remarkable split by winning tomorrow.
Oh, and if I were TLR, I’d have somebody on the Brew Crew plunked tonight. Not only b/c of Hall’s antics, but their little celebration and untucking of their shirts, on our field, after the game last night. They are getting a little cocky, and I think it is time to send a message.
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 23, 2008 9:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
On the plunking even though I don’t think the Cards will.
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 23, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the only things I would disagree about on that are:
1) if half of the bullpen isn’t doing the job, it doesnt matter how well the other half is doing, you still aren’t going to have a decent bullpen.
2) Miles is doing decent at 2B, he is the only part of that combo that makes it look good at all. I still can’t figure out how AK is hitting .272. It doesn’t matter though, because his OBP is just horrendous, and when you are being outslugged by 30 points by Aaron freakin Miles, you know you have problems.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 23, 2008 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For me the problem is the 9-1-2 Guys and Batting the Pitcher 8th.
9-1-2 is the problem spot in this lineup right now and I think it is due to the pitcher batting 8th and the respective roles of the 9-1-2 hitters.
In the 9 hole Iz2 is basically useless. He would be useless in any position in the lineup, but if the theory is getting another person on base for Pujols, well, Iz2 can’t be that answer. If you are batting your worst bat in the 8th spot, that is where Iz2 should bat because he is our worst bat most nights (except when Piniero pitches). I love his defense, but at some point you just have to say enough.
Then, you have the 1-2 guys in the middle innings. I am not sure what the stats are, but I know they are bad for those 2 spots in the middle innings. Whoever is in those slots simply are not getting on base for our 3-4-5 guys to drive in. There is a reason our 4-5-6 guys have more RBIs than Pujols. It is because they are driving in Pujols himself after Pujols gets on base. Our best hitter should not be the table setter.
Skip, for as well as he is playing, is simply not setting the table in the middle innings. Our 2 hitter, whoever it is, is a slugger most of the time who is just as likely to strike out/hit a home run, than take a walk or get a single. Ank and Luddy are hitting a lot of home runs in that 2 hole, but they are not getting on base the rest of the time, especially in the middle innings. Skip and the 2 hitter are frequently batting with 2 out or are trying to drive runners in or whatnot and are not in their traditional 1-2 role of table setting.
Anyway, the 9-1-2 is the problem spot in this lineup. I like batting the pitcher 8th and I think it is somewhat responsible for keeping us in the race, but I would bet my bottom dollar that the middle innings statistical anomaly is tied to the pitcher batting 8th and the effect it has on the lineup turnover in the middle innings.
by Egyptian on Jul 23, 2008 10:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Izturis
Iz2 is useless against righties. He bats quite well against lefties.
He must sit against right handers starters and be in the line-up against lefties
by Brianzaredbird on Jul 23, 2008 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good news on izturis
He is only going to bat from the right handed side from now on! No more switch hitting! I think he most of started reading VEB
Shortstop Cesar Izturis has decided to stop switch-hitting in an attempt to raise his average from .228. Izturis hit righthanded three times Wednesday against righthander pitcher Jeff Suppan. “I’m more comfortable there,” Izturis said. “Look at the numbers.” Izturis was hitting .294 from the right side against lefthanded pitching, and he was batting .192 from the left side against righthanded pitching. In his career, the numbers have been closer, but “I’m going to stay righthanded now,” he said, “and see what happens.”... Outfielder Brian Barton will report today to Memphis to begin his rehab assignment. Barton has been on the disabled list with a fracture in his right hand. As a Rule 5 draft pick, Barton must remain on the Cardinals’ major-league roster all season for them to gain control of his rights. As with other major leaguers, the rules allow for Barton to go on a 20-day rehab assignment without passing through waivers or using an option.
by Evilfrog on Jul 23, 2008 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny
If you read the Rotoworld sidebar, they apparently think this idea is stupid.
by saladdays on Jul 23, 2008 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
citing his career splits, and ignoring this seasons: .500 OPS as a lefty and .733 OPS as a righty. I’m not saying he’s going to be able to hit Righties RH’d, but he probably won’t be worse than the .500 OPS he is currently sporting LH’d.
by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am skeptical myself
just because he can hit lefties batting right handed, doesn’t mean he can hit righties batting right handed. Are there any other players who have gone down this path with success? Don’t know, just curious.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 23, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the idea is...
he can’t do any worse (see OPS .500 as a lefty this season). He may not hit well…but even a .600 OPS would vastly improve what he and Ryan (OPS < .530) are doing against righties.
by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe both JD and Stephen Drew were once switch hitters
Not in the majors, but through or into college which is still pretty deep into their baseball playing lives.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
by joker24 on Jul 23, 2008 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats what I dont get
I even thought about writing them a bit, but they already know.
career stats dont matter if they guy is losing his skill or is in a big slump or whatever.
this year he has been good one way, terrible the other.
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jul 23, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think they think
it’s stupid. They think that he’s a crappy hitter no matter where he’s standing.
And they’re probably right about that.
by liam on Jul 23, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
#2 has been great
Our #2 hole has an OPS of .839, which is the second-best in all of baseball. Their OBP of .355 is sixth-best in the big leagues.
Our #1 hole hitters have an OBP of only .345, which is in the middle of the MLB pack, but is not horrendous.
The #9 hole has a pitcher-esque .312 OBP thanks to our continuing to play Izsuckis.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My take
In no way am I an expert on the situation. I am not saying anything close to that. But I have been around enough young teams in high school and college baseball that may lend me to believe that these guys get that 2, 3, 4 run lead and think it’s enough. I know they are professionals and this is their job, but the teams I have been around react seemingly similar believing that the runs already scored are enough.
Otherwise, the only take I have on this is that maybe the pitchers are making adjustments to our less experienced hitters and the hitters aren’t returning the favor. They might not be adjusting their game plan as to what the pitchers are changing in their’s.
That being said, it seems as though McRae has a great game plan against the pitchers out of the gate. When we faced Soup early, we attacked. McRae seemed to know that Jeff needed to get back in the swing of things and would want to get ahead early, that’s his game. So, the cardinal hitters attacked. My question is, where are the adjustments? Is McRae talking to these guys during the game and they just aren’t responding, or are there no mid game changes to the approach?
Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!
by joshbaz12 on Jul 23, 2008 10:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Somebody
ought to check other teams to see if it’s just the cards or a systematic thing. Otherwise this discussion is moot.
In other news, i will not be that somebody.
by spencegrif on Jul 23, 2008 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I looked up total runs
scored by inning of about 8 teams, and all but 2 scored more in innings 4-6. One of the 2 that didn’t had a huge spike in the 3rd inning, otherwise would have fallen the same.
by chicagocardfan on Jul 23, 2008 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alternative post-game news conference scenario
PressGuy: Tony, please explain to us your decision to leave Kyle Lohse in the game last night when you had nine relievers stacked in the bullpen.
TLR: He was the best pitcher we had. He should have been an All-Star. Didn’t you see him putting up all those zeroes? The problem is our offense, we just don’t score enough runs after the early innings. Puts too much pressure on our bullpen.
PressGuy: Well, Tony, a three-run lead after six innings is a three-run lead whether it is 3-0 or 10-7. You are aware that the entire league is hitting for a .913 OPS against Lohse after the sixth inning aren’t you? Did you know when you sent him back out in the 8th after he struggled in the 7th that the league hits for a .455 average against him in the 8th innning? Seems like you had nine different pitchers with a better chance for success than Lohse.
TLR: You can’t talk to me like that. I say Lohse had the best chance of succeeding – end of discussion [leaves]
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 23, 2008 10:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Press Guy: If this is the case, Tony
then why do you insist on keeping 13 pitchers on the active roster? If the offense is the problem, why do you start Adam Kennedy and allow him to have 4 PA’s? Why do you not pinch-hit for him when facing Brian Shouse, a tough lefty, knowing that Kennedy is all but useless against lefties, particularly good ones? Oh yeah, it’s because you have 13 pitchers on the roster and have NO ONE ON THE BENCH WHO CAN PINCH HIT FOR KENNEDY!!!!!!!!!
TLR: You’re stupid!
by chuckb on Jul 23, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hear hear
If he’s going to use more than half of the roster on pitchers, he might as well use them. Either way, having 13 pitchers on the roster is retarded.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Jul 23, 2008 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay,
with the current situation (Duncan on the DL, Mather up, Rasmus hurt), who you wanna bring up from Memphis as an additional bench player? Stavinoha?
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Jul 23, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Add to that the bullpen usage
We’ve leaned heavily on them all year long since it seems like El Pineiro, Looper, and Wellemeyer all average fewer than 6 IP per start. That’s not even calculating the rookies, either.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are still probably half a dozen guys in Memphis
who could be of more value than the 13th pitcher. If the staff gets worn down you can always summon an extra pitcher within 24 hours. Pretty hard to make a pinch hitter appear only when you need one.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 23, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he is going to carry 13 pitchers, he should use them
I guess I don’t understand where it has been a problem to have 13 pitchers. I think we both agree that if you are going to leave your starter in too long, then the purpose of having the extra arm is defeated. I don’t think anyone who watched the game does not think that TLR left Lohse in too long.
Most games require only two pinch hitters. Granted, with the way TLR manages, that isn’t always the ceiling. Is there a point where we’ve been lacking a bat off the bench due to the roster decision?
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Back in April and May...
when he was constantly pulling Barton out for Schumaker in the middle innings. There were a couple of instances where we ended up using our last bench player…ohter than that???
You can count me amongst the group that KNOWS TLR left Lohse in one innint too long…though the two runs did score with two out…
by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many relievers were we carrying in April and May?
I believe this is about having eight relievers and a short bench versus seven relievers and a long(er) bench. To my knowledge, he hasn’t gone quite so sub-happy since carrying the extra hurler.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hilarious
That YOU would post this after posting the community rules earlier this morning.
“You’re stupid!”
Thank you for the trip down memory lane back to junior high.
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 23, 2008 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, Sooner...
HC was “quoting” an imaginary Tony La Russa in an imaginary post-game show… HC wasn’t calling anybody stupid…
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Jul 23, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are right.....
I’m an idiot.
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 23, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a grave insult to that imaginary reporter
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Jul 23, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not unique problem
I have been following the Red Sox almost as much as the Cards (although i always watch the Cards if both are playing at the same time.). I’ve noticed much of the same problems the Sox are having as the ones you are talking about here. They have a bullpen that has been brutal this season, except for Papelbon. Everyone else has been a disaster and blown many games. Offensively, their team has been nothing but streak hitters this year: Ellsbury, Youkilis, Pedroia, Oritz, Ramirez, Drew. Usually one or two are hot as hell and the rest can’t hit for sh-t. They also leave an absolute ton of runners on base, and usually it comes back to haunt them. So Cards fans…....take solace, you aren’t alone. If the Sox had a reliable setup man, they’d be cruising. The ‘pen is the key to winning – especially those eighth and ninth frames. In today’s game, it’s almost everything..
The bad news is that we don’t have a Papelbon. We have nobody that’s an automatic or near-automatic shut-down closer and this has trickled down to affect the whole squad. LaRussa and the team knows this, of course, and trust me – it affects play and decision-making. You saw it last night. When you can’t feel confident late in the game, it puts unwanted pressure on everyone else and, sadly, most guys aren’t big-time pressure players. I’m not saying a Papelbon or a Rivera will solve all problems, but it will go a long way…...more than you think.
Regardless of what the hitters do, playoff teams simply don’t blow three-run leads in the eighth and ninth innings as frequently as the Cardinals have this year. Correct the closer problem (even if it takes a Wainwright to do it next year), have a decent setup guy (which we probably have) and a lot of these other problems will go away.
by ccthemovieman on Jul 23, 2008 10:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Very good post
The only problem I have, is that if we get a bullpen guy, who will be the closer? The best two guys we have in the pen are Mclellan and Springer. I guarantee Tony won’t use either as the closer as long as we have Franklin and IzzHe. My question to everyone on VEB is, what would we do with three setup guys?
Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!
by joshbaz12 on Jul 23, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even TLR can't watch subpar
performances from Franklin and Izzy forever, can he, without making a change? Can he?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 23, 2008 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IzzHe?
IzzThere a reason you are writing his name like that?
by saladdays on Jul 23, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not necessarily
My fingers won’t type his real name. They refuse. Seemed like a dumb alternative so I took it. Kinda stupid isn’t it?
Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!
by joshbaz12 on Jul 23, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't know if there was something I missed somewhere
Not really that stupid…I’d use, unique
by saladdays on Jul 23, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I'm thinking of next year, Josh, because
we have no legitimate closer right now…..and none on the horizon. apparently.
Some big move has to be made sometime before next season. The Birds’ brass doesn’t seem to want to address this issue this year, which probably cost us a playoff spot.
by ccthemovieman on Jul 23, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Per MLBTR...
the Cards are very interested in the O’s Sherril. I hope if we get him he’s used appropriately…as in whenever we face the other teams best left-handed hitter(s) in the 7th, 8th or 9th innings…and not reserved as only a closer.
by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so whats a fair offer for sherril?
Craig, Ottavino, duncan/reyes/other throw in(s) sounds good to me (based on what the D-backs gave up to get Rauch)
At least he's better than Esteban Yan.
by jacksonian on Jul 23, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea...
I’d hate to give up Craig…he looks like a decent 3-sacker. The others you mention can go…but surely won’t be enough – I’d probably start with that and see if maybe Stavinoah might work.
by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saw the MLBTR
thing as well. That’s been floating around on a couple sites in Baltimore for a while as they saw a scout in the stands. I hear what you’re saying movieman, but if perez can figure the slider out, maybe we have the closer we crave. You know that if there’s a guy in the organization that MIGHT be able to fill the spot, they’re gonna lean towards him.
Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!
by joshbaz12 on Jul 23, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Double true.
My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.
by Alxfritz on Jul 23, 2008 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mr. Pibb + Red Vines = Crazy Delicious
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Jul 23, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, 2005 refrences will always be in style.
you will never date yourself with those, alex.
My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.
by Alxfritz on Jul 23, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you could call us aaron burr
by the way we’re droppin’ hamiltons
by mattybobo on Jul 23, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Girl acted like she never seen a 10 befo'
It’s all about the Hamiltons, Baby!
...not Josh.
by vexedtechie on Jul 23, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wild guess
backed up by no stats…
It seems the Birds are more patient the first time through the lineup, and then start hacking at the first pitch they see thereafter. With runners on base in the laste innings, that might not be such a bad idea, but if you’re leading off the inning, why not take your AB with the intention of getting on base even with a walk!
I hope Iz2ris starts hitting better as a right-handed hitter only; at least it’s his “natural” side. If’n it were me, I wouldn’t play Kennedy and Iz2 in the same lineup. That 7-8-9 (no matter where the pitcher hits) is almost an inning “off” for the opposing pitcher…
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Jul 23, 2008 11:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
as much as our middle infield blows....
i’m surprised no one has been talking about barden and hoffpauir. i’ve heard it said that barden cannot play a major league shortstop, but can he be worse than aaron miles, who tony has no qualms about playing short? their numbers (avg/obp/slg/ops)
barden: .289/.355/.433/.788
hoffpauir: 289/.369/.396/765
obviously, either one of them could get to the big leagues and be no better than our current configuration. but i can’t help but think it can’t get much worse. both have solid on-base percentages that would look allright in the 9 spot. if barden can in fact play a league-average shortstop (and i admit to having no idea if that’s a possibility) i wouldn’t mind seeing him get a share of at-bats. as horrid as our middle infield (miles aside) has been, and considering the putrid production from the 9 spot, i can’t help but think these are options that should be at least considered.
by bwhitt on Jul 23, 2008 11:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like the idea...
problem is Barden suffers from the same disease as Iz2 and Ryan…can’thitrighthandersitis…Hoffpauir OTOH has a .797 vs. RH’s but from what I understand can’t play SS. The best we can hope for IMO is that Iz2 improves with his new approach. Otherwise your best lineup vs. righties would include Kennedy and Miles.
by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miles has been better at shortstop than at second
weird, huh?
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TLR rant last night
goes back to his spat with the front office to get a protection bat for Pujols. I don’t know if a bat is needed so much as a relief pitcher, but I feel this team is looking towards the front office for signs that say “We want to win in 2008”....... everything from Mo keeps saying “just wait…. Carp and Wainwright are coming soon….” but that is just too big of a freaking “IF” considering what has happened with Mulder and Clement. Waiting two to three weeks for Carp and Wainwright may be a undue burden on the players NOW and does nothing to create excitement within the clubhouse which I think is sorely needed. Having a great team in 2009 will be nice, but then we had that in 2004 & 2005 and didn’t win a WS…..... yet the Cards backed into the playoffs in 2006 and won it all…. my point?... not sure what it is, maybe this team has worked so hard despite all the negative predictions and injuries and I really want it to make it to the playoffs as a reward for the effort, yet all I hear from the fron office is “wait”, “future”, “prospects”...... I don’t think they have to give up too much to do something….. but then, what do I know?
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 23, 2008 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Totally ageee
It’s as if they don’t give a damn about this season. What a waste. I’m sure TLR is really frustrated, as we are.
by ccthemovieman on Jul 23, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand.....
What TLR wants as protection. Are we really going to go find a bat better than Ankiel, Ludwick, or Glaus? I doubt it, especially when you consider they’d likley have to play the MI.
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 23, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think he wants Bonds
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jul 23, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's not the only one...
"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean
by Molina4MVP on Jul 23, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I think Bonds is also on that list.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 23, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cards scouting the O's
The Cardinals, whose bullpen has become almost a nightly issue, had two scouts in Baltimore on Tuesday night, presumably to watch Orioles closer George Sherrill. The Orioles want either a shortstop or outfielder for Sherrill, but the Cardinals don’t have a shortstop who is close to the majors, and they’re not going to trade Colby Rasmus for a reliever . . .
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 11:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That is a typically square-peg comment from Rosenthal
They may want a shortstop, but what will they take. He doesn’t know, so he fills in the gap with commentary. Also, Brian Roberts has been rumored to be on the shopping list. That opens up a whole other line of discussion.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, the trade "reporting" is more speculation than anything
Still, it’s interesting that we had scouts at the O’s game. Presumably, they are watching Sherrill and/or Roberts. I’m not holding my breath on a Roberts deal with Angelos’s history, but a reliever might not provoke his meddling. Either player make this team better.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I guess Angelos is kind of the wild card. I assume Mo has a back-up plan, too (probably Guardado). Since we’re speculating, how about Schumaker, Hoffpaiur and Perez for Sherrill and Roberts. If he wants an ML shortstop, he can have Izturis instead of Hoffpaiur.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would not trade Perez
He’s under control for years, which makes him a cheap, hard-throwing option out of the ‘pen. He’s a little rough around the edges, but with work, he could blossom into our closer for the next decade. While Sherrill, too, is under control for the foreseeable future, I wouldn’t swap one for the other if I could have both and give up, say, either a Boggs, Parisi, or Motte.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'd have to give up someone for a trade
Perez is much more intriguing than Boggs, Parisi, or Motte. I wouldn’t like to give up Perez either, but it’s probably going to take at least one of the guys that we like to get someone with value.
by saladdays on Jul 23, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I agree
I would rather keep him. But if there isn’t a little bit of pain, it isn’t a good trade for the other side.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about
the rapidly improving Tyler Green as shortstop trade bait?
by Mike G on Jul 23, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Green doesn't have a ton of value
but he could be included as a throw in to help get the deal done.
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on Jul 23, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't say he has a ton of value
But he definitely has some, although I agree that he won’t net anyone himself.
by saladdays on Jul 23, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do we know
our scouts weren’t there to look at the OTHER team?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 23, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 points about Tony's rant
Good discussion so far…it’s tough to work today ;-)
Let me preface this by saying that I don’t know a good one-stop shop for looking up sortable team stats, otherwise I would’ve brought something empirical to the post. Okay, having said that, I have 2 points about Tony’s rant and the shaky bullpen vs. sputtering offense argument.
1- If Tony’s whole point is that we should score more runs, sure, you won’t have anyone disagree with that. Runs = good and like money and hair, you can never really have enough of them. BUT, the Brewers beat us with 4 runs, no? Is 4 “significantly” different than 3 in the grand scheme of things? Sure, it would be great if the Cards offense could just be effin’ “normal” and hit the pitcher better the more times they see him during a game, but a lead is a lead is a lead in my book.
2- With that, we get back to the whole “why can’t the bullpen hold a lead” question. Honestly, when will the bullpen ever have some accountability in TLR’s eyes? As many of you have pointed out, it doesn’t matter if the score is 3-1 or 11-9 or whatever if the bullpen is going to likely give up the lead.
Good teams hold leads late in the game. I recall a recent stat that the Cubs (I think) had a ridiculously good record when holding a lead after 7 innings and I’d be willing to bet lots of cyber cash that most good teams have similarly strong records with the lead after 7 and even stronger records when leading after 8.
Sure, it would’ve been great if the reporter had the opportunity to rephrase the question or ask a follow-up based on Tony’s logic, but it’s obvious that no one is allowed to question the best manager to ever don a pair of Transitions lenses. Maybe someone would’ve asked why he thinks the hitters’ approaches change during the middle innings, in which case we’d have a little TLR-wisdom to include in the context of today’s discussion.
I’m sorry folks, but I’m just not buying the logic of TLR’s outburst last night. It was a fair question (like 99.9999% of questions he gets and subsequently complains about) and he became ridiculously irrational.
by goodymobb on Jul 23, 2008 11:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tony doesn't all say what he thinks
Sometimes he doesn’t want to browbeat people when they stink. Why berate the bullpen? It doesn’t help them get any better. Also, the guy barely talks during a game, and he’s sealed up tighter than a triple-hulled oil tanker. I imagine he’s desperate to let out some pressure after a loss like that.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playoffs
Many playoff series are decided by one- or two-run victories. If we make it to the playoffs, our success there will likely hinge on our ability to maintain small leads in the later innings. If our ‘pen has shown an inability to do so now, why would we think they would be more effective in October? This is why, if we are serious about contending this season, it makes sense to bolster the bullpen.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree
But criticizing them in a press conference won’t improve them, either.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely
I posted below that TLR justifiably has not thrown anyone under the bus because the club is in the fox hole together, working toward the same goal. That is why TLR is sticking up his crew.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but
is answering a question “criticizing” or “berating” them?
He doesn’t have to throw anyone under the bus; he could say “It’s tough. You know, it’s a team loss. We missed some scoring opportunities out there and our bats sort of went to sleep after the early lead, but we’ve really gotta find a way to hold these late-inning leads.”
Instead, he lost his shit and insisted that the game was “not a bullpen loss.” More to the point, he OBVIOUSLY felt comfortable throwing his offense under the bus in that situation, right? What’s the difference?
by goodymobb on Jul 23, 2008 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He could have answered the question differently
I’m not saying that he could not have done so. I’m saying that I understand where he is coming from. The ‘pen has been under siege as of late. Not that the criticism is unwarranted, but I don’t think he felt the need to join the piling on. TLR is a bit prickly and gets agitated easily, which also is a basis for the tone and content of his reaction. Just because he is not offering a critique of the ‘pen in the press does not mean that the weakness is not recognized by him and the front office.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if the reporter was necessarily asking him for a "critique" of the 'pen
He asked a question and, presumably thought he’d get an answer.
If TLR’s whole rationale is “that’s a stupid question…are you even watching the games….that loss was OBVIOUSLY the offense’s fault,” when he’s obviously completely comfortable offering a critique of the hitters and “piling on” them, it doesn’t make sense and only fuels additional questions/criticisms of how TLR views and handles various situations.
by goodymobb on Jul 23, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
Admittedly, I don’t know what the question was, but here is how the P-D reported his retort:
La Russa rejected a question about the bullpen, abruptly.“Why don’t you ask how resilient our offense is for not scoring any runs?” he said. “That’s what you should ask. What the hell does that have to do with the bullpen? I usually say team, team, team, I get tired about this focus on the bullpen. You think the bullpen lost this game. Think they lost it (Monday)? It ain’t the bullpen. Our team got beat.
“We’ve got to score more,” he concluded, “that’s just big league baseball.”
I don’t view this as saying that it was obviously the offense’s fault. To me, it is him saying that the offense was just as culpable as the bullpen, that the Cardinals as a whole lost the game. Or, to put it another way, “Team, team, team.”
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just get to the playoffs
Moneyball comment following: All you can do is set up a team to make the playoffs. Whatever happens when you get there has a lot to do with timing and luck. Refer to the 2006 Cardinals as exhibit A.
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
by palampe on Jul 23, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you have to admit
teams with two dominant starters, a shutdown closer, and soemt imely offense win the in the playoffs more often than more balanced teams do. In the 2006 playoffs, Weaver just decided to be the second dominant starter.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Jul 23, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could not agree more
If this team is lucky enough to make the playoffs with this bullpen set up as it is now, can anyone really see the Cards doing anything with Franklin/Izzy closing? They have the same chance as that snowball in hell of making it through the layoffs without at least something resembling real closer. That should be priority 1,2,and 3 for Mo right now.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 23, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree
Your post was a bit long but agree with the salient point—WE HAD THE LEAD AFTER 7 AND BLEW IT. That is the problem with this Cardinal team. It does not matter if the score was 7-5, 3-1, 11-9, et alia. We had a two run lead after 7 and lost the game. Tony’s rant about the offense was just a diversion from the 900 pound gorilla in the room: i.e., the Cards lead the league in blown saves.
by jjray on Jul 23, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
offense doesnt win
in the playoffs and isnt that tonys whole goal here?
dont mortgage the future to make a playoff appearance again…..
Come on 2009!
by benstl on Jul 23, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Psych!
I think the rant had to more to do with organizational frustration – watching the Brewers and Cubs get better in the past few weeks as the Cardinals sit back and flip the pages to their 2009 calendar – and protecting the fragile psyche of the pitchers. No numbers to back anything here, but let’s face it: Pitchers can be a fickle breed, and so much of their performance is mental. Pitchers need to believe they are coming in with the best chance of success, and TLR needs to maintain that evaporating illusion for all of them if they are going to be successful for the next couple of months. Throwing the offensive bats under the bus last night in a mild tirade throws the pressure to the line-up and brings up the glaring need (in the eyes and comments of TLR) for additional, everyday production from the offense. The Cardinals offense comes through in waves, and maybe by ranting last night TLR was hoping to ‘fire up’ the offense over the next few days. If the Cardinals can manage, against all odds, a series split with the Brewers, then everything will be OK again. Losing the series 1-3 will be bad, and getting swept negates all the gains and good feeling of the recent “feel good” Padres series. ...Just remember, it could be worse. You could be an Indians fan…
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
by palampe on Jul 23, 2008 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I donno
It just pisses me off when TLR deflects from obvious holes. It makes me feel they just don’t care or don’t see an obvious issue.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 23, 2008 11:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
who is "they"?
At least TLR is trying to get something for this year….. which in this case, another bat. Mo made a great trade for Glaus and had a great signing in Loshe….... but it’s been a few months now and the problems have been there for everyone to see… yet nothing else has been done.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 23, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate when people put it like this
“Nothing else has been done.”
Makes it sound like Mo is sitting in his office watching porn all day. If nothing has been done, it’s probably because nothing reasonable has become available. Keep in mind we’re still a week away from the deadline—we’ve seen a lot of trades already for it being this far from the end of July.
Mo shouldn’t just do something to do something. Grading him on whether “anything has been done” is a silly way of looking at things. I’m sure he’s gotten a crapload of awful trades offers, and he’s right to turn those down. Whether he’s gotten any reasonable offers we can’t know, so stop crtiticizing him for not doing anything when we don’t know if a decent opportunity has even arisen.
by mojowo11 on Jul 23, 2008 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you.
The whole criticism of Mozeliak for doing nothing is misguided. Which is worse, doing nothing, or doing something stupid? And if the offers are really something like Eddie Guardado for Jess Todd, then that is monumentally stupid.
Why don't you just make like a tree, and get out of here?
by the red baron on Jul 23, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't agree more
So far, Mo’s moves have been very solid (Rolen for Glaus; Lohse signing). I’d much rather have a deliberate, thoughtful GM who makes well-considered decisions and gets value for value than one who panics at the first sign of trouble and mortgages the future just to appease the fans by taking some action.
Being patient and seeing what develops is a good thing… remember how Rolen “fell into Jockety’s lap” after other deals fell through. That was one of his better moments. Had he started thrashing around making trades for the sake of looking involved, he probably wouldn’t have been in a position to jump on that opportunity when it wandered by.
by punditmoi on Jul 23, 2008 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Part of it is unrealistic expectations
Just look at the trade rumor thread. People say, “Here’s an idea: we’ll give them Duncan, Reyes, and Anderson and get back Kinsler!” They expect that, somehow, Mozeliak is going to make the trade of the century. They expect that we can spin off our spare parts and get back young, cost-controlled, ML-ready players. It’s insane.
Trading is HARD. Most teams probably won’t be involved in a single trade at the deadline, and we shouldn’t be shocked if the same is true for the Cardinals.
From what I’ve heard, Mo actually appears to be making effort - scouts are at O’s games, we’ve kicked the tires on Fuentes, and Mahay and Grabow are being discussed. What people don’t know is what’s being asked for in return - if the Royals want Todd and Anderson for Mahay, should Mo do it? No, of course not. And yet people are crucifying him for not “doing something,” which is not only vague but also misguided. Most of those people are also tentative about selling the future…I mean, really, what do you think teams are asking for in return for impact players? Adam Kennedy?
Ease up on Mo. So far, I think he’s shown that he’s a pretty deft GM with the Glaus deal and the Lohse signing. Hell, even the Miles re-up is working incredibly well (though that’s probably more luck than anything). And we certainly aren’t missing Edmonds, while Freese is showing promise in the minors. Mo’s done some combination of tinkering and standing pat and turned the predicted 4th-6th place team into a playoff hopeful…and now all people can do is bash him for not “doing something” to push the team even further over its expectations.
by mojowo11 on Jul 23, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, Mo probably isn't the problem
and if he was, just saying “trading is hard” doesn’t make being a shitty GM acceptable. Like I said, my job is hard but if I can’t do it they’ll get somebody that can. I hope Mo does more than browse internet blogs for trade rumors.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 23, 2008 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
but all you can ask is that he does somethings to improve the team, and avoids doing other things that make the team worse. He did decently in his one offseason, and we still have a week before the tread deadline, and another month before the waiver deadline. A lot can happen before then, and railing against him when we have almost zero information strikes me as a bit strange.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Jul 23, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
eh, it's not really going by zero information
it’s a combination of everything leading up to here that most likely means we’ll be looking up at two teams happy with our hand.
Mostly based off human nature. Billionaire DeWitt is exactly that, a billionaire. He didn’t get that way by throwing money away. It’s only logical to assume he wants to keep costs at a minimum and ride his World Series and Attendance records to the bank. I just hope it comes back to bite him in the ass cause I’m certainly not dealing with another early 90s Cardinals. I’m not a Royals fan, if a team makes top 6-7 revenue I expect to get my moneys worth.
Mo blatantly said there were “no glaring holes that need to be fixed”. They look pretty glaring to everybody else.
Last hotstove season Mo also said he was pretty much told to look a head to 2009.
Tony and Mo’s tap dancing just wreaks of trying to keep customers happy about the current product.
It’s just my personal conspiracy theory that Mo isn’t the doink here and it’s the owners trying to pad their bottom line without pissing anybody off. If Mo can pull off something in his handcuffs, he’s the man.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 23, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree Valatan
Let’s not forget that many moves happen as waiver deals. I am pretty sure both Larry Walker and Will Clark were done after 8/1.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 23, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clark
Was a 7/31 deal. Right at the deadline.
Walker and Woody Williams, for two, were August moves.
by Cardinal70 on Jul 23, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking that will be..
MO’s M.O…patience. It paid off well with Lohse and Glaus. He didn’t make the Rolen/Capuano swap with the Brew-Crew and the Glaus/Rolen swap has been huge. Lohse wasn’t signed until his price bottomed out and that couldn’t possibly be going any better. OTOH Eckstein signed for peanuts with Toronto, and that may have been an opportunity missed…the question being would Eck’s superior offense outweigh his inferior defense considering his and Iz2’s salaries are almost a wash? Did we miss a shot at Durham who was picked up for next to nothing? How good would he look in the 2, 7 or 9 hole?
by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Durham
isn’t even going to be a full time player on the Brewers. and he wouldn’t be here either, his defense stinks
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looking at it now...
I see that he can’t hit lefties, which makes pretty well worthless to us as we already have a 2B that can’t hit lefties…
by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Durham's defense isn't too much lower than out current standards.
2008 Fielding RZR
Kennedy .871
Gonzalez .852
Miles .788
Ryan .781
Durham .768
by Don Zero on Jul 23, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edgar Gonzalez
of Cardinals Spring-Training, and Padres regular-season fame.
See comment by CURVEBALL.
by Don Zero on Jul 23, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously
that’s a 10% loss on BIP from Kennedy to Durham—not to mention you have to account for the OOZ plays too.
by azruavatar on Jul 23, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
& less than a 3% loss from Miles to Durham
by Don Zero on Jul 23, 2008 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's including Miles at other positions though
Not merely 2nd where he’s about average. Durham is a pretty significant defensive liability relative to the rest of the fielders.
2007 data
Kennedy 2.1, Miles -.8, Durham @ -12
Durham is about a win worse defensively than Miles. Ryan is the only one of those three that can play SS as well so that comparison is less apt.
by azruavatar on Jul 23, 2008 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it just me
or do code blocks show up seemingly at random for other people?
by liam on Jul 23, 2008 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the 2007 data, which does indeed distinguish Miles from Durham.
But I believe that I posted 2B-only stats. THT gives Miles’ 2008 RZR and OOZ at 2B as: .783 / 9, & his numbers at SS as: .882 / 8 (underscoring the point that others on this board have made about his better play at short so far this year).
by Don Zero on Jul 23, 2008 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2008 RAA/RAA2, according to BP
Miles: 0 runs above average
Durham: -8 runs “above” average
by Don Zero on Jul 23, 2008 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Updated stats
Player RZR OOZ
Kennedy .872 22
Miles .783 9
Ryan .781 4
Durham .768 8
by Don Zero on Jul 23, 2008 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a reminder
to those faulting the front office: TLR was perfectly happy to sing the “just wait ‘til Mulder and Carp get back” line last year when his buddy WJ was the GM. I view his posturing as nothing more than a little power struggle with MO.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 23, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he was ok saying that this year
when he thought they would be back by the all star break.
by Evilfrog on Jul 23, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sticking up for his crew
TLR is not going to have anyone pissing into his clubhouse without him pissing out. He’s going to stick up for the guys that he is forced to give the ball to every night and I don’t blame him. He wants every player in the ‘pen to know that he believes they are good enough to maintain a lead. That’s why he is deflecting criticism from the ‘pen right now. He’s not going to throw his players under the bus, which is admirable and, in a pennant race, necessary. I’m glad that he is sticking up for them. Everyone with birds on the bat adorning their chests is in the fox hole together.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a severe issue with that
“He’s going to stick up for the guys that he is forced to give the ball to every night and I don’t blame him.”
It’s the whole Snowflake generation. Everybody gets a trophy for participation. Although their big league professionals, their widdle self esteem is more important than their performance. If I fuck up at my job I get bitched at or fired and I’m making millions less than these guys. I absolutely HATE this “well at least you gave it your best” generation.
If I had a lawn right now I’d be shaking my fist telling them to get off.
/crotchety old man.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 23, 2008 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Your best? Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f* the prom queen.”
- Sean Connery in The Rock
Who is saying that he does not deal with it internally? Who is saying that he should not criticize players internally? I’m certainly not. What I am saying is that TLR is not going to throw his ‘pen under the bus in the media. That is not the venue for it, especially about the performance of people that he will have to rely on through season’s end. Deflecting criticism from the outside is what a manager should be doing. That doesn’t mean that he doesn’t or shouldn’t deal with his players as he sees fit inside the walls of the clubhouse.
Snowflake generation? Maybe I’m showing my youth but I have no idea what that means.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know exactly what that means either
Maybe our generation melts quickly?
by saladdays on Jul 23, 2008 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure if it orginiated at Fark,
but it’s a reference to the parenting that my generation did that turned out a bunch of little ladies that think the world revolves around them because they are all unique and beautiful snowflakes.
re: yelling at players in the media. That’s a personal preference and I certainly favor it. At least with Guillen or Pinella you at least know they know there is a problem and it won’t be tolerated.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 23, 2008 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Pineilla would even get into a fight in the clubhouse with the media present. This is a good way of letting everyone know that there is a problem. Rather than talking about it man-to-man in the manager’s office, it’s better to piss and moan in the media until the strife builds up to a battle royale in the clubhouse.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It means
that the current generation of people, say, in their mid to late twenties, (I fall into this category) were taught when they were young that they were special, each of them completely unique, and that they could do anything they wanted when they grew up. My generation was imbued with sort of a softness due to this upbringing, according to certain schools of thought.
Seeing as how the alternative was to be told when I was four that “hey, the world sucks, and it does not give two shits about you, no matter how much you might wish it did, and you’re going to end up working in a factory that will give you cancer from the horrifyingly high levels of carcinogens in the air and, oh, also, you’re never going to find true love; you’ll eventually settle down with someone you don’t really care that much about because you don’t want to be alone anymore after all of your friends have succumbed to their own bad marriages and slow sad child induced deaths”, I suppose I can’t really blame my parents for telling me otherwise. Still, the point is a decent one, about my generation’s naivete and occasional entitlement complex.
The whole snowflake thing refers to the way we were all told we were so unique.
Why don't you just make like a tree, and get out of here?
by the red baron on Jul 23, 2008 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny
I’m in my mid-twenities. I was taught that if you work hard and are accountable, you can be successful. So far, it’s worked pretty well as a life philosophy. Does this make me a snowflake?
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
awh
you’re a special little snowflake
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you can still be like that and not be naive or have an entitlement complex
It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
by saladdays on Jul 23, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It still pisses me off when boomers complain about this
because this is exactly what was said about them: Dr. Spock’s baby books supposedly taught them to be soft and spoiled, and this is supposedly why they balked at going to Vietnam, blah, blah, blah. It was obnoxious and alienating when their parents said this about them, yet they go and repeat it to us.
Me, I’m going to go wear flannel and holey jeans and hang out at the coffee shop listening to my music and complaining about the world, and opt for slacking over a job.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Jul 23, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The best part
Is that most of the people doing the complaining about our generation are the parents of that generation. Don’t raise your kids to be softies and then complain about it (not that any of them, personally, would ever admit to raising a softie…that was everyone else, damit!).
I really can’t think of a sillier thing to be than a generation-ist. Talk about inherently generalizing an enormous group of people.
by mojowo11 on Jul 23, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a Gen Xer
and we get looked down on a lot by the Boomers… but we were the ones predicting the predicament we’re in today 15 or 20 years ago
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You knew our bullpen
would suck 15 or 20 years ago?
by Youneverknow on Jul 23, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry
I deviated from baseball for a bit
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just trying to lighten the mood
Intergenerational sniping brings me down.
by Youneverknow on Jul 23, 2008 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read an interesting quote once.
There was a rant about how today’s youth is irreverant, disrespectful, and lazy. They did not dress properly. They did not respect their elders. They would drag down society.
The cool part? It was written by Socrates. Just like mojo said, one generation always manages to find fault in the successive generation.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 23, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
props for the socrates reference
i agree that much generational dispute is just history repeating itself. however, i recall a fairly robust study was done a while back (in the last year or two) indicating that today’s adolescents actually are measurably more narcissistic than usual… i don’t actually remember what they were compared to, but it seemed like a decent psychological study.
by mattybobo on Jul 23, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
forgot to mention...
that the prevailing interpretation was that the contemporary emphasis on everybody being a special snowflake and so on might actually be detrimental.
by mattybobo on Jul 23, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's because they are the marketing generation
they have been marketed to their entire lives
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone really believe Tony is a "snowflake" guy?
Don’t think Tony subscribes to the whole “precious snowflake” school of thought. So while it may be a societal issue, I don’t think it plays a role in any decision making that goes on in the clubhouse/field.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 23, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can honestly see that going either way
He is a cranky old hard ass that wants to win so it would shock me that if he would rather tap dance around somebody’s feelings then ship them for somebody better.
Then again he also has a high reliance on intangibles like confidence.
He probably knows he’s stuck with this horrid bullpen so he want’s to “stay positive” about it, which I think that is lame because you just don’t know if that’s the case or if he honestly feels like there isn’t a problem that they can’t get through (i.e. keep giving Duncan ABs, keep sending Izzy out, etc)
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 23, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony a "snowflake" guy?
No. I think of him as more of a “bulldozer” guy.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 23, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there a history of this?
Is there a point in baseball history-namely 40 or 50 years ago-where managers uniformy slammed players in the media after every game so those players “knew where they stood?” Did Casey Stengel do this? Connie Mack? McGraw? Sparky? Lasorda? Southworth?
I have no doubt that the sixty-year old snowflake enablers of today are Dairy Queen to the managers of yore’s Baskin Robbins, but I don’t recall this being a generational trait. It seems that different coaches/managers coach/manage in different ways. Are managers, dare I say it?, snowflakes? Each with their own managing style?
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Stengel used to slam his players in the papers all the time. He had pet-reporters he would leak quotes to. Used to drive Mantle insane.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 23, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, in the (not necessarily accurately reported) words of Mike Shannon,
“he kisses his dogs on the lips!”
I suspect that LaRussa is protecting a number of players who grew up well beyond the social classes that perpetuate the “snowflake” ideology, but who have entered the potentially more pampered class of professional athletes.
by Don Zero on Jul 23, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not as bad as it sounds
Since his dogs are vegetarians, their breath isn’t as bad.
by punditmoi on Jul 23, 2008 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but isn't he throwing the offense under the bus while protecting the bullpen?
He would have been better off just saying “Yes, the bullpen sucks, but the offense has been a bit sucky these last couple of games too.” This offense has not been the main reason for the teams troubles. The bullpen has been. It is obvious to me, am I just looking at it wrong?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 23, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone got more info on Rasmus?
I would hate to write off next season, too. :(
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 11:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh, Christ!
Picklefork had Rasmus in a full body cast last night according to the game thread. The Olympics were gone, as was most of the season due to rehab on a torn ACL. This morning it’s just a sore knee or something…
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PD says
... MRI today, then we’ll see.
by punditmoi on Jul 23, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if it's worst case scenario, a torn mcl, he would be ready to go by spring training next year
and even if he wasn’t ready, Colby Rasmus isn’t the key piece to this team being successful. Will he help? Most definitely, but don’t expect him to be a major league world beater in 2009.
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on Jul 23, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It affects what become expendable, at the least
If he’s out for this season, that’ll change the possibility of swinging one or more of our starting OFs and calling up Rasmus for the stretch run.
I’ll wait for the MRI before going too crazy, personally.
by mojowo11 on Jul 23, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doubt it changes that much
I don’t think we were going to trade anything away this year that would make us rely that much on Rasmus this year.
by saladdays on Jul 23, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rasmus's most important asset to the club
right now is that he offers leverage with respect to Ankiel. If he came on board next spring that would also eliminate the temptation to continue on with Chris Duncan—a nice side benefit.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that's next year
His injury now most likely isn’t going to prevent him from playing next year (knock on wood).
by saladdays on Jul 23, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
still sucks
I was looking forward to him playing in the Olympics.
by Evilfrog on Jul 23, 2008 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at least he won't be traded now :)
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why not?
If you’re trading to get a prospect, you don’t care as much about the value you get NOW, but only for the future. If it’s true that he’ll be fine next year, then I don’t see why a team looking for prospect wouldn’t be interested.
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on Jul 23, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it certainly won't make him more appealing
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grade 1 Strain is being reported
He’ll be out a month, but more likely the rest of the year.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 23, 2008 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
from the wire...
Redbirds outfielder Colby Rasmus, the St. Louis Cardinals’ top minor-league prospect, probably will not play for the next month after being diagnosed today with a Grade I MCL sprain in his left knee.
I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck
by bukowski on Jul 23, 2008 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grade 1 sprain, out at least a month
No Olympics
Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2
by gocards62 on Jul 23, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to me....and im sure its my jaded side saying this....
i honestly felt like TLR left Lohse out there to prove a point to management. It was him pushing for a reliever
I had three friends call me in the 8th inning and they all thought some variation of the same thing….
Lohse missed location BADLY on the strike out pitch to end the 7th inning and looked out of gas then, no way i start the 8th with him
if they honestly have that little faith in Izzy, DFA the guy
The bullpen criticism is legitmate
and I too an tired that when TLR is asked about something that obviously cost us games, he points the finger elsewhere
how about some accountabililty
Tony would make a hell of a union steward
Come on 2009!
by benstl on Jul 23, 2008 11:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
TLR Ace Syndrome
I don’t think that it was to prove a point. It’s indicative of the way that TLR leans on his ace. Earlier this year it was Wainwright, as LB documented. I believe that TLR thought Lohse in the 8th was better than any other pitcher so he left him in, just as did with Wainwright many a start before the finger sprain.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
other issue
Seems TLR is trying to save his bull pen arms right now, lets face it they have been used a whole hell of a lot lately.
by ICbirdfan on Jul 23, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ludwick's homer last night
i didn’t realize this but ludwick’s home run last night of 450 feet was the longest home run in busch III. i was there last night and didn’t realize how far it really went until they announced the distance.
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 23, 2008 12:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
that was a nice one. didn’t realize it was the longest so far! I’m sure Pujols wants to beat that feat…
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
with La Russa on this one. The offense has been just fine. Did everyone forget the high run totals we put up in Pittsburgh and against San Diego? The offense honestly cannot be expected to go out and score six or seven every night. It’s just not gonna happen and I don’t care who we put out on the field. The fact is the offense has been doing fine, good enough to win in most games. Could we use another bat? Absolutely, but hitting is not our main problem right now as Tony would have you believe. The bullpen remains our single most glaring weakness, and last night once again showcased that. After Villone comes in and does his job, Tony turns to his boy McClellan who promptly does what he’s been doing all year long and that is get pounded by righthanders. But because it’s McClellan, La Russa and the fans give the bullpen a pass.
by stl522 on Jul 23, 2008 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
While I wouldn't say...
“pounded” by righthanders, I didn’t realize he had a pretty significant reverse split – .749 OPS vs. Rigties, .595 OPS vs. Lefties…hmph!!
by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understand that when we talk about war, we are
really talking about peace.
Remember guys, we are the home team, meaning we have last at-bats. The bullpen can’t ‘blow’ a game, because ultimately it is the offenses fault for not coming back and winning again in the 9th inning.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 23, 2008 12:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not really a solution
but maybe the pitcher should start batting 9th again. Shaking things up is never bad.
by TheBirds on Jul 23, 2008 1:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That isn't the problem
the problem is that the #7 and #9 hitters are often times worse than the pitcher.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 23, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
please read
I just want to shake things up, I realize batting the pitcher 8th only accounts for a slight loss of offense.
by TheBirds on Jul 23, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shaking things up
that might actually improve things, if we are going to shake things up to shake things up:
Cut or Disable:
Isringhausen
Kennedy
Flores
Call-Up
Barden
Perez
Salas
Strategy
-Take Rick Ankiel out after the 7th inning.
-Stop playing injured players who suck.
-Re institute the squeeze and various other ‘run-manufacturing’ techniques.
-Stop starting Shumacker vs LHP
-Stop giving away outs late in the game.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 23, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you want...
to take your best defensive OFer out in the late innings…seems to fly in the face of conventional wisdom to me – unless you’re planning to do this only in games where we trail by more than two runs.
Everything else I agree with…of course the squeeze play is “giving away outs late in the game”. To add…stop resting Ludwick against RHP!!!
by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe not take him out after the 7th
but you could pinch hit for him in his last at bat
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While he is our best defensive OFer
he’s made some costly gaffes in the OF late in games.
And it should have read “PH for Rick after 7th inning”.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 23, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with everything except
taking Rick out after the 7th… you just can’t take out your best defensive outfielder.
Mather and Schumaker should be a platoon from here on out. Skip vs RHP and Mather vs LHP.
You could argue that Skip will never learn to hit LHP if he never faces them but a pennant race is not time learn.. Skip comes back from the off-season a better player every year.. this is no doubt in my mind that he’ll his LHP NEXT year.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
Seriously... what were Rich Harden's parents thinking?!?!?!
by stltrav09 on Jul 23, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Izzy but...
it is time the Cards just let him go. Having him on the roster does what for this team? If they are serious about makingthe playoffs then Izzy is just a waste of a bullpen spot.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 23, 2008 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya if u had a good
9 hitter and a leadoff one it would work quite well.
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Jul 23, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
catch 22
if you have a good hitter why would you bat him 9th? you would want to have a good hitter get as many ABs as possible so you slot higher in the order.
i think the only way it works "quite well" is if you have a line up with 3 high OBP guys with little to no pop and the other 5 guys are either great hitters or just sluggers with not so great on base skills. then you put the obp guys 1, 2, and 9 and the sluggers in the other spots.by DJ87 on Jul 23, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't complain about the 9 hole at this point of the year.........
It’s not going to get better, if you sit Izturis and his .298 OBP/.286 SLG you get to play Brendan Ryan and is .295 OBP/.287 SLG…...... The Cards MI sucks and as sad as it sounds offensively you are better off with Miles at SS and Kennedy at 2B right now.
by ICbirdfan on Jul 23, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
some thoughts
well, our offense has been all or nothing this season, especially of late. we should have expected this downturn statistically, and I’m surprised TLR didn’t foresee this. we scored a TON of runs in the Pittsburgh and San Diego series, and we were sputtering and out of gas on the offense before that. now we are paying the statistical dividends, and aren’t scoring up to our average of 4.5 or more a game. shouldn’t be a surprise. Also, it was a mistake to leave Lohse in, since his stats show that he doesn’t have the endurance to perform a whole game at the level he was. now if the cards’ offense was ready to produce, I say leave him in. but last night was evident of a big problem this year, of not being too consistent offensively. there’s just too many wholes in the lineup, with our streaky hitters, and especially the bottom black hole of a lineup. Moz has been a great GM, but he still needs to do something soon I think, because teams must be realizing that he is too wise to be fleeced, but there still could be deals done that would help both sides. that seems to be the trend this year.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, it pissed me off
when he went after Gould too.
but you could tell he felt bad/like an ass about it amost as soon as he did it.
he has a point, but really both the offense and the pen are bad at times
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jul 23, 2008 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Latest tidbits from Strauss's chat
- Thinks (reading between the lines) Sherrill is available for a price the Cardinals can afford.
- Arthur Rhodes may be on the shopping list as a set-up man, as Seattle scouts are in town.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 3:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
interesting
very interesting
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would the scouts be
in town? Are we trading Major League talent for Arthur Rhodes? Egad.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 23, 2008 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Izturis and Kennedy
...for Rhodes and Vidro. Hahaha
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we have some non-ML talent on the team...
Just sayin’...
by saladdays on Jul 23, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
weary interwestink
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Jul 23, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sherrill a hot commodity
From yesterday’s Baltimore Sun:
With it unlikely that the Orioles will trade second baseman Brian Roberts, Sherrill, who has 29 saves, has become the team’s biggest trade chip, attracting interest from as many as 10 teams, according to industry sources.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 3:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah about every team in baseball needs a reliever....
I hope people on this board don’t think only STL has an awful bull pen.
by ICbirdfan on Jul 23, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't imagine how Sherrill will go cheaply considering the demand for bull pen arms.......
Hell the White Sox have a pretty good pen and they are wanting more arms…... I guess there is question on if big bobby jenks will be 100% with him straining his non pitching shoulder a week or so ago.
by ICbirdfan on Jul 23, 2008 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been throwing this out in other threads, and I want some feedback
If we want to get an inexpensive, decent bat that plays a MIF position without having to give up much, why not try and trade for our old pal, Ronnie Belliard? Here’s his line this season in part-time duty:
.232/.340/.452/.792 in 60 G and 206 PA
18.6% LD and .242 BABIP – LD% + .120 is a good estimate of expected BABIP, so he should be putting up a .306 BABIP, meaning he’s likely to improve
He’s played 1B, 2B, and 3B so far this season, for 24, 185, and 201 inning, respectively. His RZR for each is 1.000, .755, and .608 respectively with 0, 1, and 6 OOZ plays, respectively.
He’s signed for this year and next year at $1.6 M and $1.9 M respectively.
I think we could pry him away with a middling prospect or two, maybe even an Anthony Reyes type. What do you guys think?
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Jul 23, 2008 3:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if we can trade Reyes for him
I say HELL YEAH!
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Belli is one of my faves
I favored re-signing him over bringing in AK, so you’ll get no gripe from me about re-acquiring him. His OBP, even without an uptick in BABIP, is worth it. But, my question is, why acquire another secondbaseman when he will undoubtedly be second fiddle to GRIT Miles?
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
easy: put miles at short
use izturis as a defensive replacement. plus it appears belliard can be a utility infielder. and if he gets back on a good club I’ll bet his offense perks up
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miles can't play short
It’s been proved. You can look it up.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen his defensive numbers (small sample size)
and they were better than when he plays at 2B last time I checked, which was like a week or two ago. there ya go.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure that because
he plays better at short than second, makes him a shortstop. I would probably be a better left fielder than a pitcher, though I am neither.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
now your splitting hairs
we all know that Miles is a start now due to his batting average. is shortstop really orders of magnitude greater than 2B?
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I guess you need to look at the zone ratings
to see the magnitude. Last I saw, his zone rating at shortstop was pitiful. Izturis has a very good ZR and Ryan’s may be even better. He also has a disturbing tendency to bobble the ball on double plays. I guess he has small hands or something.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yet he is still doing better at SS this year
errors wise anyway
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cant get an error when everything gets by you
which is what happens when he plays short
by FunkeeC on Jul 23, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RIGHT.....
Guess you missed his awesome play at SS earlier this week. Come to think of it, I can’t recall a single ball that a “better SS” definitely would have had.
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 23, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it is the ones you don't remember though
the groundball that is just one step from Miles getting to, or the popup in left field that he can’t quite get a glove on. SS with more range will get to those balls. I know I have seen him miss groundballs by a step or two.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 23, 2008 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't remember enough of them.....
To suggest our record would be any different.
And you have to play the other side too, based on the options we currently have for SS, if one of the others with better range had started (Iz/Ryan), maybe they don’t get a hit, or drive in a run that Miles did. Goes both ways.
Right now, I’d say that the difference in hitting (Miles over Iz/Ryan) is a wider gap then the defense of Iz/Ryan over Miles. JMO though.
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 23, 2008 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you on that
Miles’ offense is worth the risk you take on defense right now. Miles is at least showing flashes on D, the same can’t be said about Ryan and Izturis at the plate. So you have to be willing to sacrifice a little of Ryan’s development in favor of Miles in a pennant race, right?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 23, 2008 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
basically all I'm trying to say
is that Belliard would be a good addition
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so Miles made the Defensive Player of the Game on July 20
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?tags=game:235235&partnerId=PGA-2008%2F07%2F20%2Fsdnmlb-slnmlb-1-STL
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at shortstop no less
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ummm
they weren’t. I’m not sure what stats you were looking at but he’s awful at SS. . .really really really awful.
by azruavatar on Jul 23, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
really?
in 101 innings this year no errors, RZR of .882 and OOZ of 8. Ryan has 1 error, a RZR of .870 and 7 OOZ in 226 innings. Izturis has 7 errors, RZR of .857 and OOZ of 31. Stats from Hardball Times. In contrast miles line at 2nd is 2 errors, RZR of .783, and OOZ of 9 in 323 innings.
Maybe this is just a shortcoming of defensive statistics, (or my utter ineptness at interpreting them) but as Cards Fan in Chitown said his numbers indicate that Miles is better at SS than at second. Additionally, they show he is on par with Ryan and Izturis at SS.
by MotherTruckinSteve on Jul 23, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
did you look at his stats?
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe we're looking at this season vs. career?
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right -- last year
in three times the opportunities, he had an RZR of .699 at SS.
And stop for a moment and ask yourself, does Miles look like the better SS on the field. He sure doesn’t to me.
by azruavatar on Jul 23, 2008 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
this year he’s doing better at shortstop. I’ve seen him make some pretty good plays there. we gotta put the guy somewhere, he’s going to be a downgrade either at shortstop or 2B. so just trying to figure out a way to do this…
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just watched that Miles walk off grand slam
that cracks me up every time I see it. and the little hop after the home run is priceless
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is he still a PR problem for St. Louis?
I always liked him..
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 23, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
Explain
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Jul 23, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't he have an affair
and then there was a blackmail attempt with a false pregnancy? Weird story… I’ll see if I can find it.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 23, 2008 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
I don’t recall that…not calling you a liar or anything, I just don’t remember that.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Jul 23, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
from Wikipedia
After the Cardinals World Series victory in 2006, Belliard, who is married and has two children, was accused of impregnating a woman after meeting her at a St. Louis nightclub. George Edwards, the woman’s father, then allegedly tried to extort $150,000 from Belliard to keep quiet about the incident. When the woman had a miscarriage of the alleged child, Edwards still attempted to extort the money from Belliard in order to keep the media out of the situation. In January 2007, four conversations between Belliard’s agents and Edwards were recorded and local investigators along with the FBI have now become involved in the case. While the case continues, Edwards has been ordered jailed without bond as a flight risk and public danger.[
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 23, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just reading that
Sounds like it’s not a big deal anymore. Even if it was true, it wouldn’t bother me if he were on the team.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Jul 23, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't bother me either
But does it bother DeWitt?
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 23, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Alleged" child
Wikipedia-speak.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No proof of pregnancy
hince the “alleged” comment.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 23, 2008 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something like this?
The Nationals are aware that Belliard was involved in controversy after the 2006 season. According to the St. Louis Post Dispatch, George Edwards tried to extort money from Belliard. The paper said that Edwards tried to get $150,000 from Belliard in order to keep quiet about an extramarital affair Belliard allegedly had with his daughter.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Jul 23, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's an interesting name
He slugs well, but doesn’t hit for average. Sounds like a replacement for Chris Duncan, no?
Actually I think the point that’s been made is that second, as bad as it is, is actually a more productive position, with Miles (mostly) bolstering the average there. Short is a much easier upgrade. I don’t know if Belliard’s defense is all that hot either. Does he play right field or second?
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
SS
It’s easier to upgrade over what we have, to be sure, but more difficult to find an available upgrade on the market. Unfortunately, that is the problem.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, since we have no one
coming up who will be ready to play short next year, maybe we should sign a good shortstop now, rather than face the free agent carousel of five names in December.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
What I am saying is that trading for one now is difficult because teams with good shortstops aren’t putting them on the market, that I’ve seen. That makes improving at the SS position via trade this July difficult.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In recent years, some of the best signings have been mid-year deals
it just seems like the way to get quality players, rather than go through the inevitable window-shopping/cheaping out/signing a retread cycle each winter.
by Red in Chicago on Jul 23, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm confused
Unless a player is DFA’d, a team cannot “sign” them mid-season. So long as a player in under contract, another team cannot sign said player to a new contract. We could acquire a player by trade and then, once that player is under our contractual control, negotiate an extension with the player. We can’t just sign a player on another team. To even discuss possible employment with a player under contract with another club is collusion.
by bgh on Jul 23, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
Duncan this year:
.248/.346/.365/.711
Duncan also plays LF and 1B, two positions that we have taken care of. If we stuck Belliard at 2B and gave Miles and Izturis turns at SS, we’d have an offensive upgrade. Belliard could also spell Glaus at 3rd, so he could get some more time off.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Jul 23, 2008 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like how everyone was opposed to getting Sabatthia
and now that he’s pitching against us, most are saying we can’t beat him. it appears Glaus loves to hit vs. CC
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 4:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Any opposition wasnt because he isnt a great pitcher
he is, just would have to give up way too much for a rental…..
by FunkeeC on Jul 23, 2008 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know I know
I was just venting because tons of people were writing us off for the rest of the series.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
naw
I’ve already talked myself into CC giving up 6 today and Looper getting his 2nd complete game.
by Evilfrog on Jul 23, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what kind of franklins are you drinking already
and can you pass some of them my way
plskthx!
by FunkeeC on Jul 23, 2008 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still have my Mulderaid
Which is 1 part Kool-aid 1 part Everclear.
by Evilfrog on Jul 23, 2008 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that stuff is overrated
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2008 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it is the Cardinal way
Lose games they’re supposed to win, and vice versa. Here’s to two great wins today and tomorrow *hoists a Franklin
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."