Interesting Cards proposition on Athletics Nation

by Foehammer on Jul 21, 2008 5:46 PM EDT

There was an interesting post on Athletics Nation by notsellingjeans.

The post bascially outlines a way where the Cardinals could fill a ton of immediete holes by breaking a "Cardinals Rule" ... trading Colby Rasmus.

In the deal, the A's would get a cornerstone to build their team around for years ... Rasmus. The Cards would get:

Mark Ellis 2B

Bobby Crosby SS

Justin Duchsherer SP

Alan Embree RP

and ...

Huston Street RP

This would obviously be a fire sale for Oakland ... a full retreat into rebuilding mode. For the Cards, this would be a deal for the here and now which I'm not sure I'm wanting to sell the farm for. It would plug a ton of holes but for Rasmus? Whadd'ya think? The link to the actual article which is quite interesting is below:

http://www.athleticsnation.com/2008/7/20/575122/the-final-sell-off-how-the

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And I forgot ... Duke

Oh yeah, Duke was mentioned in there to.

by Foehammer on Jul 21, 2008 5:48 PM EDT 0 recs

Horrible horrible trade idea for the Cardinals

a good starting pitcher, an obviously injured closer, and then players who offer no upgrades over the rest of our team

add to that that most of them are impending FA’s, and it’s a terrible trade.

Also, there is a catch all thread for fanposts like this, please post them in there from now on to avoid the sidebar being cluttered with trade stuff.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 21, 2008 6:52 PM EDT 0 recs

You are crazy if you think Ellis isn't an upgrade.

by JI on Jul 21, 2008 6:59 PM EDT up 0 recs

He isn't

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 21, 2008 7:18 PM EDT up 0 recs

you are right

Ellis is not worth it.

BUT LETS USE THIS AS THE NEW TRADE THREAD….The other one is getting old.

by nybirdfan on Jul 21, 2008 7:58 PM EDT up 0 recs

Not an upgrade when losing Rasmus

it’s just not worth it.

Prospects are good. Especially when they aren't rushed.

by CraveCase on Jul 21, 2008 10:14 PM EDT up 0 recs

It's a good brainstorming exercise,

but, I agree that this trade doesn’t make much sense from the Cards point of view, nor from the A’s POV, for that matter. Rasmus is far more valuable to the Cards for his cost-efficiency in addition to his high-offensive potential, and the A’s could spin off those parts individually and get better fixes in different areas of need, too. Billy Beane likes to accumulate prospects, much like me in MLB ‘08, so I can’t really see him doing this.

Rockin' the Red

by rockin the red on Jul 21, 2008 8:04 PM EDT 0 recs

Is Ellis (or anyone else available) an upgrade?

List of 2nd basemen who could be moved is from MLBTradeRumors.com. Link: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/07/the-second-base.html

Since I don’t know how to do tables, here’s the order:
Name / Average / OBP / Slugging / HR / RBI / SB

Brian Roberts / .291 / .373 / .484 / 7 / 34 / 27
Mark Ellis / .236 / .331 / .381 / 9 / 34 / 12
Mark Grudzielanek / .303 / .353 / .400 / 3 / 21 / 2
Jamey Carroll / .271 / .350 / .344 / 0 / 23 / 6
Tadahito Iguchi / .259 / .324 / .343 / 2 / 20 / 8
Ronny Cedeno / .271 / .340 / .353 / 1 / 20 / 3
Mark Loretta / .259 / .326 / .374 / 3 / 25 / 0
Juan Uribe / .218 / .268 / .347 / 3 / 18 / 0
Esteban German / .236 / .281 / .292 / 0 / 11 / 4
Felipe Lopez / .242 / .315 / .322 / 2 / 25 / 4

vs.

Aaron Miles / .323 / .361 / .407 / 3 / 23 / 1
Adam Kennedy / .272 / .318 / .344 / 1 / 22 / 5

Now, looking through the list of how these players are performing this year and this year only, you can cut a few players very quickly. Uribe, Lopez and German are awful. Cedeno is a Cub and the likelihood of a deal there is pretty slim. Iguchi is looking very old (although his stats could be down due to PetCo).

Grudz has very similar numbers to Miles, although with a longer track record as far as the ability to expect that play to continue. Loretta is in a similar place, although his numbers aren’t as good as either Miles or Grudz. Jamey Carroll is pretty darn unimpressive.

Ellis is a power upgrade, and in fact is the best home-run hitter on this list, with 9, however, his average is low enough that despite leading this list in home runs, he’s being outslugged by Grudz, Miles and Roberts.

Roberts is obviously the jewel of this crop, but we’ve all seen and heard (or I assume we have) the packages they rejected from the Cubs to get Roberts in Cubbie blue, and I doubt most of us would want to give up that much to get Roberts.

I’ve never really been a big fan of Miles myself, but unless you want the proven track record of Grudz or the premium upgrade, probably at the cost of 2 or 3 of our top 10 prospects for Roberts, Aaron Miles is probably our best option, and this year, he is far superior to Mark Ellis.

by mtalken on Jul 21, 2008 8:06 PM EDT 0 recs

Very well put

I think you have put to rest the idea of trading for a 2Ber. There is another issue, team chemistry. This team has jelled and any trade needs to take that into account. Hopefully management will be able to improve the bullpen, the rotation gets better when Carp and Wainer get back, and we simply call up Rasmus to find a lefty mashing impact pat.

by nybirdfan on Jul 21, 2008 10:18 PM EDT up 0 recs

I don't give a rats ass about chemistry if they can't win ballgames

this game is about how much people contribute on the field not how great a person you are. Do you think Albert’s thinking about what an ass Skippy is when he’s at the plate? Or Franklin’s concerned that Glaus hurt his feelings earlier that day? Really? This is such a tiresome argument.

As for the numbers mtalken posted—single season numbers aren’t representative of what we should expect from a player moving forward. At the very least you should use a three-year weighted system like Marcel. At the very least. . .

by azruavatar on Jul 22, 2008 12:08 AM EDT up 0 recs

BUT

This team is winning, and they are getting along. There is no cancer in the club house. Where have u read that Albert thinks Skippy is an ass. I think one of the reasons this team is doing so well is because they are playing with joy. There is no Scottie Cancer or Jimmy Crybaby. I total disagree with you!

by nybirdfan on Jul 22, 2008 8:45 AM EDT up 0 recs

Wait

Weren’t Rolen and Edmonds pillars of the “great clubhouse chemistry” that led to an overachieving team winning the World Series in 2006? How could so much change from 2006 to 2007? To me that just shows that “chemistry” is overrated – when the team performs well everyone points to good chemistry as the reason and when they play poorly they blame it on “Scottie Cancer or Jimmy Crybaby”. Don’t forget that Rolen feuded with LaRussa throughout the 2006 postseason when the Cardinals were on their way to the championship.

Like Az said, it comes down to on the field performance – and the guys all being buddies is an over-romanticized portion of the game fueled by sportwriters that need something outside the boxscore to write about.

by roarke on Jul 22, 2008 11:10 PM EDT up 0 recs

IF you don't think Chemistry Matters

Talk to Donavan McNabb and the rest of the Eagles.

by nybirdfan on Jul 23, 2008 5:11 PM EDT up 0 recs

we're talking about baseball

Football is a much, much different sport, and far more team-oriented than baseball. Same goes with basketball.

by jdub176 on Jul 24, 2008 12:35 AM EDT up 0 recs

Barry Bonds

I suppose he wouldn’t upset the locker room.

by nybirdfan on Jul 23, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up 0 recs

he might

the point is, we shouldn’t worry about it too much. San Fran seemed to function with him in the clubhouse. If Bonds represents a 2 win upgrade (making this up) what does the “destruction of chemistry” cost us? More? Less? Everyone works with people they don’t like—for most individuals they are still able to perform in their daily tasks.

by azruavatar on Jul 24, 2008 7:55 AM EDT up 0 recs

I work with the equivalent of Milton from Office Space

and this Milton is also a spit talker, and we still are expected to do our jobs. Bonds can’t be any worse than that.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jul 24, 2008 8:06 PM EDT up 0 recs

I'm not sure I buy that.

Moving forward beyond this season? Sure, the 3-year numbers are superior, but for this season, I would say this year’s numbers seem more accurate.

Last year we all expected Adam Kennedy to snap out of it. The 2nd half of the season, was he closer to the guy from the first half or the guy who played for the Angels?

If we revisit this after the season, I would bet most of the players I listed don’t get significantly better in the 2nd half of the season. I’d be willing to wager Roberts and Grudz are pretty good, while guys like Iguchi and Uribe probably are still shells of their formers selves. Maybe I’m wrong though. I’m sure you could find plenty of examples of guys who have regressed to their 3 year stats if you wanted.

by mtalken on Jul 22, 2008 10:31 AM EDT up 0 recs

if we could get Brian Roberts without giving up Rasmus, i'd do it.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jul 22, 2008 1:38 AM EDT up 0 recs

damn

good thing we have that big ass trade deadline thread in the recommended fanposts area since so many people are using it.

i’m pretty sure this trade has been mentioned multiple times in game threads, the large trade thread and has even garnered multiple fan posts dedicated to it. please, make it stop.

by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2008 1:48 AM EDT 0 recs

You're exactly right

And nothing said here that wasnt said before..

Being Aaron Miles has to be so much more fun than being you...

by cardschinmusic on Jul 22, 2008 4:21 AM EDT up 0 recs

So we get

4 or 5 major league ballplayers for a kid that had some troubles in AAA and has yet to play in the big leagues? That seems like a lot that the A’s would be giving up for a player that may be All-Star material in the future but could also bust.

by The Gottfather on Jul 22, 2008 11:21 PM EDT 0 recs

you gotta realize

most of the guys the a’s are giving up are gonna be walking at the end of this year or next. giving them up for a potential all star is no biggie…sure, rasmus could bust, but the guys they will be giving up won’t be with them either way.

by lopey986 on Jul 23, 2008 1:17 AM EDT up 0 recs