jaime or the highway
i’m sitting in for HC today on a preprogrammed thread ---- he’s taking over for me on monday and tuesday while i’m on vacation.
the cardinals haven’t had much luck developing left-handed pitchers. since world war II they have produced only 3 who won as many as 50 games for the franchise: steve carlton (77), ray sadecki (68), and joe magrane (51). by contrast, their top 3 homegrown right-handers during that span all won more than 100 in a cardinal uniform --- gibson (251), forsch (163), and morris (101). in the la russa era, the cardinals have gotten just over 100 wins from left-handed starting pitchers of any type, whether homegrown or not --- versus more than 500 from right-handers. their 5 winningest left-handed starters during his tenure have been mulder (22 wins), donnie osborne (22), kent mercker (17), rick ankiel (13), and darren oliver (13). bud smith stands tied for 6th, with 7 wins (chuck finley also has 7).
speaking of smith, since he came along the cardinals have only gotten 1 start from a homegrown left-handed pitcher --- chris narveson. every every other pitcher the cards have developed and promoted to the big-league club --- haren, wainwright, reyes, parisi, boggs, travis smith, josh pearce --- has been right-handed. until today.
jaime garcia bears a few things in common w/ bud smith. they both got to the majors very young --- smith was just 21 when he made his first start, and while garcia only turned 22 a few days ago. and both had abbreviated stops in the high minors. smith made a total of 43 minor-league starts above class A --- 18 at double A, 25 at triple A --- while garcia has made 36 (24 at double A, 12 at triple A). smith was a more polished pitcher, a 4th-round draft pick who posted very low walk rates in triple A and respectable K rates (just under 6 per 9 innings). he was 13-6 with a 2.56 era as a triple A pitcher. garcia, who wasn’t drafted until the 22nd round, comes to the Show with a 4-4, 4.59 record in triple A. his walk rate is higher than you’d like (3.3 per 9), and his K rate isn’t high enough to offset it (7.5 k/9). he does have a nice, low homerun rate, but it’s the only one of his peripherals that impresses you . . . so let’s take take stock: garcia is less heralded and less experienced than bud was, and he has a less impressive minor-league record. is there any reason at all to think he can succeed in the big leagues, where bud failed?
yeah; let me cite a couple. smith was your classic pitch-to-contact control specialist, a guy with underwhelming stuff who had to locate his pitches with great precision to survive. if he was off by 6 inches, he got killed. garcia can reach the low 90s with his fastball and has a sharp-breaking curveball; he might be better able to get away with a mistake, better able to make batters miss even if he doesn’t put the ball right where he wants it. second ---- and this is probably the critical point --- smith got hurt. after the cards traded him to philadelphia, he made only 3 starts for the phils’ triple A affiliate before getting shut down for the year. the following year he made just 10 starts, and they year after that he only made 6. i can’t find any information about what injury he actually suffered, or whether it required surgery, but whatever it was it kept him from taking the ball consistently for 2+ years.
garcia already has red flags on his health, having missed the last month of 2007 with a sore elbow. no concerns this year that we know of. given his repertoire, if he can stay healthy (and that’s the big question with any young pitcher, particularly an extremely young one like garcia) i think this guy has a decent chance to succeed over the long haul. in the short run? you never know with left-handers. the cardinals are hardly the only team that struggles against never-heard-of-him southpaws just up from double A; every team does. there’s a chance that garcia (like smith when he first came up, or like franklin morales for the rockies last year) will take advantage of hitters’ unfamiliarity w/ his delivery and his stuff to go on a little run. we can all hope that he does. we’ll find out beginning today.
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Garcia
the Padres, not a good offensive team at all, have a lot of lefties in their starting lineup usually. Though lefties have hit Garcia harder than righties so far at AAA, in very few PA’s, the left-hander w/ reverse splits in the majors who doesn’t throw a screwball is rare. Over time, he’ll be tougher on lefties than righties. I think he’ll be just fine today.
by chuckb on
Jul 20, 2008 9:06 AM EDT
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Harvy Haddix
won 53 games for the Cardinals after 1950 and would have won a good many more if the Cards would have had the good sense to keep him. Howie Pollet also won 94 games but only about thirty something after 1950.
by ridgesee on
Jul 20, 2008 9:37 AM EDT
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Hmmmm.
where did iI get 1950 from anyway?
by ridgesee on
Jul 20, 2008 10:45 AM EDT
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That was a depressing read
On the bright side. Carp is pitching today!
by Evilfrog on
Jul 20, 2008 11:37 AM EDT
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+1
I am so excited about Carp pitching, Seems like an important day of baseball today
by FlimtotheFlam on
Jul 20, 2008 11:45 AM EDT
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Agreed
Kind of feels like the boys have done everything they could to stick with the Brewers and Cubs, now we get to see if the cavalry is coming or if they were lied to about the reinforcements. Reminds me of movie, just can’t remember which one…..
Perhaps even more important is that there are no setbacks today, no further injuries, no “mechanics” problems, nothing even resembling the rehab of another star pitcher in the organization. Seems like a critical day indeed.
by fuegophil on
Jul 20, 2008 11:57 AM EDT
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Letters from Iwo Jima comes to mind
General Kuribayashi was never told by HQ that the Combined Fleet was destroyed and found out he wasn’t going to be reinforced a day and a half before the battle. Does that count?
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on
Jul 20, 2008 12:33 PM EDT
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the pilot for the show Firefly?
"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean
by Molina4MVP on
Jul 20, 2008 1:04 PM EDT
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I'm really looking forward
to Garcia’s start. We don’t have a good history of lefthanders but there’s no reason Garcia has to succumb to that.
by chuckb on
Jul 20, 2008 12:09 PM EDT
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Today's Lineup per D. Goold
1. Skip Schumaker LF
2. Aaron Miles SS
3. Ryan Ludwick RF
4. Rick Ankiel CF
5. Troy Glaus 3B
6. Chris Duncan 1B
7. Jason LaRue C
8. Jaime Garcia LHP
9. Adam Kennedy 2B
Do Work
by iwannarock24 on
Jul 20, 2008 12:04 PM EDT
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I'm okay with that.....
I’m sure Albert could use the day off, and even if we lose, we took 3 of 4, which should have been our goal. Rest of the team has been hitting the ball well anyways, so hopefully they’ll continue.
I’ll be honest, Garcia scares me a little today. I just don’t think he’s ready (ie, Boggs/Parisi), and he seemed overly nervous during his 2 inning relief stint the other day. IF he can calm his nerves, he may be able to give us 5 innings of 3-4 ER ball. Pretty much all I’m hoping for.
by SoonerfanTU on
Jul 20, 2008 12:34 PM EDT
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i'm okay with the lineup as well
but i think it should be santa getting the day off. i know he’s been on fire and everything, but he’s appeared in every single game but one.
by stlcardinalsfang on
Jul 20, 2008 1:03 PM EDT
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Just had 3 days off early this week, remember?
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Jul 20, 2008 1:32 PM EDT
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all right
i was about to say so did albert, but i guess he’s gotta be a little tired following the all star festivities. you got me.
by stlcardinalsfang on
Jul 20, 2008 1:46 PM EDT
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I had a feeling we'd see a B lineup today
We’ve already got the series wrapped up, why does TLR do that? It’s like he takes the foot off the throat at the last second.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jul 20, 2008 12:53 PM EDT
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Padres with a B lineup as well:
Hairston CF
E. Gonzalez 2B
Giles RF
Kouzmanoff 3B
Headley LF
Myrow 1B
Hundley C
Rodriguez SS
Baek P
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jul 20, 2008 1:44 PM EDT
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Good day for a off day for Albert
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
Seriously... what were Rich Harden's parents thinking?!?!?!
by stltrav09 on
Jul 20, 2008 12:11 PM EDT
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I knew someone was wrong!
Jaime Garcia pitching. LaRue catching; Miles at SS, No Pujols. It will be a good win if we walk away from this with a victory.
by Evilfrog on
Jul 20, 2008 12:25 PM EDT
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psh
the way larue and miles have been hitting it’d be wrong not to win this one…they are studs now!
by lopey986 on
Jul 20, 2008 12:26 PM EDT
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But miles is a Second basemen
and LaRue, who has been hitting in the last two months; is not Yadi. I really don’t have an issue with sitting Yadi in a day game after three days straight. Just that we are not putting out our best defensive team for our young Rookie’s first start. Instead using this day to rest the best player in baseball.
Im not critizing LaRussa for doing this. Pujols needs to be rested from time to time just like everyone. But if we win, It would be a really big win.
by Evilfrog on
Jul 20, 2008 12:31 PM EDT
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Today is an exciting day to be a Cards fan
One of our top prospects is getting his first start, our former Cy Young winner is on the road back to the big leagues, and we could be 1 game behind the Cubs before the day is through. I love it!
Do Work
by iwannarock24 on
Jul 20, 2008 12:24 PM EDT
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i'm sure
our history of home-grown lefties is depressing…but it can’t really be too much worse than most teams. it isn’t like good lefties just grow on trees and i can’t imagine many teams having a home-grown lefty who has more than 100 wins for their franchise.
by lopey986 on
Jul 20, 2008 12:25 PM EDT
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Would you make this trade?
Hello all, notsellingjeans visiting from AthleticsNation. I have a trade proposal that I’d really like to get feedback on from Cardinals fans. If you get a chance today, please read this article here.
Thanks for reading, and for running such a great blog here at vivaelbirdos. We have great respect for it at AN.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me." -Wedding Crashers
by notsellingjeans on
Jul 20, 2008 12:26 PM EDT
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helluva fanpost
you put in a lot of work on that. my general preference is to say no, i wouldn’t make the trade…but that’s mostly due to the fact that i love colby rasmus and i think he’ll do great things for our team. however the prospect of duke/street and crosby would make it hard to pass up.
by lopey986 on
Jul 20, 2008 12:29 PM EDT
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A deal like that
would have to be very, very tempting for the Cardinals…
If I were GM, I’d definitely consider it, though I’m not sure I’d pull the trigger.
Nice job, nsj. Keep up the good work over at AN.
"Fortune favors the bold!" - Virgil
by player2bnamedl8r on
Jul 20, 2008 12:34 PM EDT
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Dealing Rasmus scares me.........
Dealing Rasmus for pitchers from Oakland scares me even more.
by fuegophil on
Jul 20, 2008 12:36 PM EDT
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+1
you need exceptional players to win championships and colby has the best chance to be that player. peaking in the A’s projected heydey is also peaking when we need to augment/replace AP. just isn’t worth the risk.
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
by sportsman on
Jul 20, 2008 12:41 PM EDT
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has anyone ever traded
4 or 5 proven MLB players for a AAA prospect? Let alone Billy Beane?
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
by SleepyCA on
Jul 20, 2008 12:43 PM EDT
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Interesting proposal
But I think I’ll pass. As much as I’d like to see all of those guys you spoke of in a Cards uni, I just can’t bear the though of breaking up a Ludwick-Rasmus-Ankiel outfield in 2009/September 2008.
Do Work
by iwannarock24 on
Jul 20, 2008 12:40 PM EDT
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my problem w/ it
is that we give up 6 years of Rasmus for several OK players for a year or two. It shortens our time horizon from several years down to two. Duchscherer is at the peak of his trade value. He’ll never again be as good as he was in the first half. Crosby’s hurt all the time and Ellis is a free agent. Street scares the hell out of me w/ his declining K rate and increasing HR rate. Embree’s pretty good but not at all worth Rasmus. What do we get that we can count on? Ellis—for 2 months, and Embree for 2 months and a year if we pick up the option.
Duchscherer isn’t bad at all but he’s not nearly as good as his first half has been.
The other thing is, Beane doesn’t do this deal and ONLY get back Rasmus. Therefore, we’d have to give up more and that would be too much. I’d rather trade for Washburn and take our chances and keep Rasmus.
by chuckb on
Jul 20, 2008 12:51 PM EDT
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You add Duchscherer (didn't see his name in the poll, but was in the post)
we throw in Duncan, and yes, I do that deal, with one conditon:
Cardinals get 48 hours to negotiate extensions for all thoae expiring contracts.
I love Rasmus, but that trade solves every problem area the Cardinals have right now, and we already have a pretty good CF in Ankiel.
"Is this Heaven?"
"No, it;s Iowa."
"I could've sworn it was Heaven."
by MilCardFan on
Jul 20, 2008 1:19 PM EDT
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Carp?
Anyone know how his start went yesterday in AA?
by birdjam on
Jul 20, 2008 12:42 PM EDT
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nm
Just saw it was pushed back to tonight.
by birdjam on
Jul 20, 2008 12:42 PM EDT
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it didn't get pushed back
It was always scheduled for today.
by Evilfrog on
Jul 20, 2008 1:40 PM EDT
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O/T
If you haven’t see the new Costas Now check it out. Absolutely amazing. I’m watching now and Bob Gibson (in the audience) is staring down Aaron and Mays (on stage). You should see Gibby’s expression when Mays calls him a head hunter. Another fantastic show by Costas
"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on
Jul 20, 2008 12:56 PM EDT
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+1
Good show. I watched it the other night. I believe Costas said Mays batted .195 lifetime against Gibby and Aaron hit .215, although I believe Hammerin’ Hank also hit 8 homers against him, if I heard right.
Good explanation by Gibson of his view of pitching inside. He in effect said batters used to “hit themselves” by trying to claim too much of the plate. He said it with a completely straight face. Great stuff.
by Youneverknow on
Jul 20, 2008 1:56 PM EDT
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SBNation issue
Is anyone else have difficulties with SBNation? Most of the pictures (i.e., the blog logos, the avatars, etc.) aren’t showing up. I just get those little white boxes with the red square in “em.
I might try and just re-start the ol’ computer since refreshing and other stuff hasn’t really helped at all…...
by Tackle Box on
Jul 20, 2008 1:00 PM EDT
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I'm getting it too
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jul 20, 2008 1:03 PM EDT
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yup
"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on
Jul 20, 2008 1:05 PM EDT
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Good news?
At least it isn’t just my computer, right?
by Tackle Box on
Jul 20, 2008 1:07 PM EDT
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yeah
you can think of it that way.
by stlcardinalsfang on
Jul 20, 2008 1:15 PM EDT
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brewers get ray durham
glad we are trying to improve our team…
by krippledmaster on
Jul 20, 2008 1:27 PM EDT
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It's ok
They’re gutting their minor league system to compete this year, the Cubs have a bunch of albatross contracts. We’re the only team of the three that looks to be successful in the long run.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jul 20, 2008 1:29 PM EDT
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i put a fanpost up on it
feel free to discuss there.
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2008/7/20/575260/brewers-land-durham
by stlcardinalsfang on
Jul 20, 2008 1:32 PM EDT
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i totally posted
mine first!! im the winner!
by krippledmaster on
Jul 20, 2008 1:34 PM EDT
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i'm sure we found it at the same exact time
but it takes a wee bit more time to post a fanpost than a simple comment.
by stlcardinalsfang on
Jul 20, 2008 1:35 PM EDT
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I say we call it a tie
and you guys split the prize money.
by punditmoi on
Jul 20, 2008 1:38 PM EDT
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Back to the original topic: HOW Smith got hurt is significant.
Smith was cruising through what looked like a RotY-caliber 2001 when, on September 3, he had the misfortune to pitch a no-hitter—a 134-pitch no-hitter. I remember pundits of the time debating whether it was a good idea to let a 21-year-old pitcher throw that many pitches in a game, even in pursuit of a no-no, because of the risk of arm damage. In hindsight, it looks like it wasn’t, even if the injury didn’t show up until the next spring. (And I don’t say this to dump on TLR for leaving him in that long; he was really between a rock and a hard place, which is why I use the term “misfortune.”)
All of the evidence suggests that La Russa and the Cardinals learned something from that sad tale. Their failure to develop a LH starter after Smith has more to do with marginal raw material than anything else, at least until Garcia showed up. I think the Smith experience should let them avoid subjecting Jaime to a similar fate. At least I hope so.
by StanTheManFan on
Jul 20, 2008 1:39 PM EDT
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larussa and duncan were in a no-win situation that night
his pitch count was up but he was throwing a no-no for crying out loud. the fans and media would have gone beserk had they not left him in there to seal the deal, even if it did cost smith his future.
by stlcardinalsfang on
Jul 20, 2008 1:44 PM EDT
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Yeah, that's what I meant
by rock and hard place.
by StanTheManFan on
Jul 20, 2008 1:47 PM EDT
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yeah
and you know if the idiot who replied to your first post had read it carefully, he may have noticied that you said that.
by stlcardinalsfang on
Jul 20, 2008 1:51 PM EDT
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That's it!
We’re taking back your half of the prize money.
by punditmoi on
Jul 20, 2008 1:53 PM EDT
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good start
first batter….home run (the umps blew the call at first)
by ccthemovieman on
Jul 20, 2008 2:23 PM EDT
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good start-1
garcia pitching, albert has the day off…...hmm
by ccthemovieman on
Jul 20, 2008 2:24 PM EDT
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not bad overall
He survived a rocky start and looked decent, except for giving up a home run ball to the pitcther, of all people! What’s your opinion of his outing?
by ccthemovieman on
Jul 20, 2008 8:01 PM EDT
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