What I took away from the All-Star game...
by Jumsy on Jul 16, 2008 9:59 AM EDT
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PrintDan Uggla should not be pursued by the Cardinals. From what I saw, he was putting a lot of pressure on himself and he just didn't make the plays. It makes me wonder what kind of response he would have in a playoff situation where the pressure really mounts?
Russell Martin is a FAR better defensive catcher than I had previously given him credit. He made some great plays from behind the plate, but none that I wouldn't expect Yadi to make. The only thing I saw Martin do wrong, turned out okay. On his sacrifice bunt, he punched at the ball instead of deadening it off of the bat. That bunt could have been popped up/caught, but it didn't really matter because the next guys failed to drive Ludwick in anyway.
Aaron Cook made some nice pitches with his back against the wall. I never felt worried that he was going to walk in the winning run. He just went out and made his pitches to induce ground balls and get the NL out of a jam.
Fukudome played as if he were an average mlb player...Oh wait, he IS just an average player.
All-Star rosters should be expanded to include a couple more pitchers that are emergency only (can't play in the game unless it goes to extra innings).
In the extra frames, some of the worst defense was followed up with some of the best defense to bail his team out of trouble. The most exciting all-star game I have ever seen.
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Good points
but Russell Martin (and Geo Soto, for that matter) really REALLY make me appreciate Yadi’s arm. I have little doubt thinking he would have thrown out at least 4 of the 7 SB attempts last night, and that’s being generous to the AL.
Secondly, and I wasn’t sure where I was gonna post this (it was probably discussed at length in the game thread last night), but I really can’t feel bad for Terry Francona and the situation with Kazmir last night. He carried 6 starters and 6 relievers, two more relievers than the NL. Going in everyone was talking about what an advantage it was for the AL to have all these relievers that can come in and shut down the last 6 innings of the game!
Fat lot of good that did him when the NL’s extra starters shut down the AL too. When the AL’s longest outing of the game came from GEORGE SHERRILL and all but one starter pitched one freaking inning it isn’t the fault of the game that you’re shorthanded… its the manager. If this thing “counts” now, the managers need to adapt and start extending their starters a little more, 3 innings should be acceptable for a guy. Also, if you aren’t willing to and/or cannot pitch in the game, you shouldn’t be on the roster. Simple as that.
Sorry for the rant in your thread, my thoughts over the last 8 hours or so since the game ended.
If ya pitch Sunday,
yer replaced on the active roster by a guy who didn’t pitch Sunday; why put managers in the position of pitching tired guys? Let the Sunday pitchers come to the game, but don’t make ‘em pitch…
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
yep
Why is that such a difficult rule to make?
Someone (Ken Rosenthal, maybe) wrote a suggestion addressing this. It was something like “have a list of pitching alternates that the manager selects at the same time as the actual rosters, then once the Sunday thing happens, you can adjust your All-Star pitching staff accordingly.” Makes sense to me.
Points, counterpoints
- Don’t buy into the Uggla hate. First of all, he strikes out a lot anyway…it’s not really that shocking that he’d strike out a few times in a game, let alone against Papelbon, Soria, and Kazmir, three absolute studs with filthy, filthy stuff. Second, he’s generally a very solid fielder. The first error was boneheaded, sure, but the second two were tough plays. Quentin’s ground ball was completely obliterated and skipped off the lip—should be caught, but a tough play. The third error took a terrible hop on him. Uggla is a beast. Don’t write him off because he had a bad (well, really bad) night on a big stage.
- Martin is indeed a very good catcher, although I can’t be the only one who noticed that he seemed slow to get in position to throw on the stolen bases. I am, of course, completely spoiled by watching Molina bounce around like a cat behind the plate, but Martin’s footwork seemed sluggish. Still, a very excellent player, both offensively and defensively.
- Aaron Cook was nails, I agree. Helps to be able to really air it out over a few innings instead of needing to save stamina for 7, 8, or 9 innings…but man, he got a lot of weak choppers in that crucial inning.
- I’m not ready to label Fukudome “just average” yet. Give him some time. I think he’s a good major league player, though definitely not an All-Star. Guess that’ll happen when all of Japan is voting for you, though. His defense is a definite plus, and I’m guessing his bat will only improve over the next year or so.
One hell of a game.
Uggla
so Uggla’s an all star, but only against crappy pitching?
by barry whiteteeth on Jul 16, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
eh
i get your point, but it is a little unfair to judge anyone based on the all-star game, since it’s one game and you’re up against a (usually) elite team which is unrealistic. besides, don’t most hitters generally hit better against bad pitchers and worse against good ones?
He didn't look comfortable once on any ground ball hit to him last night.
And the second error was a bad play. The ball went right threw his legs and he didn’t get a piece of it. Who cares how hard it was hit? He got in front of it enough and missed it.
maybe
they could include some more relievers, possibly at the expense of starters or with an expanded roster. that way at least they’d have the option of putting somebody in who can pitch on shorter rest.
what i took away...
the all-star game is a funny exercise in contradiction nowadays, but still a fun one. an exihibition game that “counts”.
i didn’t realize until i checked baseballreference this morning that skip schumaker really has been just as good as fukudome. and that’s just one example of poor voting. pedroia over kinsler? jeter over, well, anybody? suzuki isn’t having a terribly great year, though maybe he deserves it just for his now-mythical pre-game speech.
i really thought for once that the NL would win. as in, over 50% chance. the i woke up after falling asleep watching the game to find it was tied in the 12th inning, and thought to myself “some AL guy is gonna win this one in a walk-off just like michael young and that’ll be that”.
Ludwick's Batting Helmet?
What was that? It looked like he forgot his road helmet.
That's what i figured
and they didn’t realize it until it was either too late to over-night his, or before they could replicate one that looked like an actual Cardinal batting helmet.
Everything about the All-Star game is bass-ackwards
It’s all a mess, but the way I see it, there are only a couple of real issues with the current format. For the sake of brevity, I’ll go bullet-point style.
1. The game is an exhibition (but).
2. The game now “counts” because it decides which league’s representative gets home field advantage in the World Series.
3. So given that it’s a pretty important thing, why not have the fans decide the vast majority of the team’s composition?
4. So now, the fans, who can vote up to 25 times apiece, get to decide the starting position players for this all-important event.
(Nevermind the obvious disrepancies between fans with easy internet access compared to those without it, nevermind the possibility that fans of large market teams who, I don’t know, play in the same league (e.g., Boston, NYY), could conceivably “stack” the ballot for the opposition with less-than-All-Star-caliber players)
5. Okay, so now that we’re letting the fans choose the participants in this big-time event, we should probably let the people who actually play decide a few participants too, just to keep everyone happy.
6. Now that the players have had their say, we should probably actually let the guys who are gonna be charged with organizing this trainwreck have a say in the rosters.
7. However, before we let the coaches choose which deserving but not-yet-voted-in players make the squad, we should probably hamstring their choices a bit by making sure that all of the teams are represented.
8. Okay, so now you’ve got at least one player from each team represented at this exhibition game that will decide home field in the World Series. Cool…let’s play ball!
9. Wait! So remember those guys that the fans voted in? You know, the guys who are, in theory, the “cream of the crop” on the team, given that they’re your “starters?” Yeah, you should keep them in for a good bit of the game.
10. BUT don’t leave these superior players in for too long or get them too many at-bats. Remember, we want all teams represented here, so make sure you get everyone who made the team into the game at some point. Bonus points if you can get each position player an at-bat AND a little time in the field.
11. Even though you might want to, I don’t know, leave a 2-for-3 Albert Pujols in as your DH, it’s getting late into the game, so you should probably yank him in order to get someone else into the game.
12. BUT remember, you’re playing to win here….home field advantage and all that jazz. SO you’ve gotta try to hold on to someone in case of a late-inning pinch-hitting opportunity. Nah, eff it. Substitute David Wright for Pujols here; who knows when you’ll get another opportunity to get him into the game?
13. You’re playing to win, but don’t let any of the “starting pitchers” go more than 2 innings, no matter how dominant a guy might look (unless there’s a chance of a tie or using a guy who you probably shouldn’t use because his manager said he’d prefer it if this dude who pitched 104 pitches 2 days ago didn’t throw again on no rest, in which case it’s perfectly acceptable to go over 2 innings, so long as the pitcher in question plays for YOUR team).
14. You should also identify a “closer” and keep him until the very last minute. Conversations about who deserves the role are welcome and encouraged.
15. Okay, so get everyone into the game and try to win it at all costs, even though your roster might not be what you want it to be.
By following these simple points, you too can have a successful MLB All-Star experience. Um, unless it’s a close game that ends up going into extra innings….then you’re effed. Note: If this happens, distribute “Red Bull” to your players, joke around about having your 3B actually come out an pitch, and cross your fingers for a weak sac fly to the “Final Vote” guy in RF to mercifully end this hodge podge.
Wow…guess it’s not as brief as I thought ;-)
You forgot one
When you replace a 2 for 3 Albert Pujols in your lineup with David Wright, you might then later have to replace your thrid baseman. Only now, since you forgot the rule about not being able to sub in your DH without losing the DH position, you should sub in a shortstop who may or may not have ever played an inning at third base to play the final 7 innings of an extra inning game.
Then again, I guess if you’re forced to start Kosuke Fukudome in center field and Matt Holliday in right field, you might as well see if how many other guys you can get into the game out of position.
as far as being out of position
if luddy was in RF in the 15th, I think he throws out Morneau at the plate. Corey Hart (while he is a RF, it’s for a very sloppy defensive team) made a very poor throw that still almost got the out.
"..and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped." -Sir Belvedere
Good observations but...
it’s kind of hard to make all of those assumptions based off of one game. This was Uggla’s first time actually playing in an all star game, so it would make sense that he would be nervous.
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it."- Rogers Hornsby
Then what happens the first time he plays in the post-season?
or first time he plays in the World Series?
Would it be okay then too? Ryan Ludwick didn’t look too nervous when he made a great diving catch in extra innings. Aaron Cook didn’t look nervous when Dan Uggla totally stabbed him in the back and he had to get 3 outs without allowing a run. J.D. Drew didn’t look nervous when, in his first All-Star at bat, he sent a ball into the right field bleechers.
Not really lookin’ for explinations or answers…..just wonderin’ aloud.
yes, yes
Uggla is nervously slugging .605 this season from second base. In late & close situations, he’s trembling his way to a .375/.464/.688 line. DFA him!
Yup
That’s obviously what I was saying. Dan Uggla is the worst player in baseball, and does not deserve to be employed. Thanks for cutting to the chase. You summed up my opinion of him perfectly.
Nope
That’s not what I said you were saying, and I sure wasn’t trying to sum up your opinion of him. I just think this armchair psychology – “Uggla was nervous!” – is unwarranted, especially when you’re basing it on one game. I suppose this was originally directed toward the OP.
Well, I for one, do not know what your stance is on numbers and such
I understand what you are saying when you quote his slugging pct. and such and what you mean when you say “one game” (i.e., sample size). But what you can’t deduct from late inning numbers and slugging percentages and such is how one conducts themselves in a high pressure situation. Late inning games are high pressure situations, but a regular season game pales in comparison to the type of pressure one feels when they are on THE main stage and that’s what you got a look at last night.
Is it fair to form an opinion on one game? Not reallly, but what else do you have to go by? People can get lucky and have a great game, and they can have bad luck and stink up the joint and either of those can be in stark contrast to what their “numbers” say will probably happen. What typically can’t be masked is nerves, and what I saw (among what many other people saw) was a guy who couldn’t get it together. He wasn’t freaking out or anything, but what happened was his nerves were visably getting in the way of his performance. Question the thrid error if you will, and I’ll agree that it’s difficult to give a guy an error on a bad hop, but that ball hit him in the chest. A fielder is supposed to keep it in front and still be able to make a play. It WAS a bad hop, but it wasn’t a horrible hop like the appologists on the broadcast would paint it to be. He should be able to make that play 9 times out of 10, but sometimes when things aren’t going your way there’s not much you can do to correct it. Call it Murphy’s Law or simply when it rains it pours?
Anyway, Dan Uggla is a hell of a hitter and a pretty good second baseman. His nerves got the best of him last night and any reasonable person would have to be concerned if it’s an issue. It might not be, but there are plenty of players who don’t let the pressure get to them in a way that affects their performance. Maybe he simply needed to be exposed to that type of situation, and now he’ll be fine? Only time will tell, but we won’t know until he’s in a similar situation again, and looking at what he does in the 8th inning in a close game in Dolphin Stadium (or wherever) is not a compairable situation.
Not making any predictions. Just making a mental note to myself what happened and am now interested to see what happens the next time.
It was getting into his head.
Uggla took forever to throw that grounder home just to make sure he didn’t botch the throw. If he would have just trusted his instincts they could have probably gotten the double play. If he would have botched that throw, I could easily see him falling into a Chuck Knoblauch type throwing situation. Just my opinion though.
you're reading into it way too much
Late inning games are high pressure situations, but a regular season game pales in comparison to the type of pressure one feels when they are on THE main stage and that’s what you got a look at last night.
We got a look at a guy who played like shit in one game. He played exceptionally shitty. It happens to the best of them. He’s actually hitting much better away from the low pressure confines of Dolphin Stadium this year. Last year it was just the opposite.
I just think it’s silly to say that Tuesday night was an indicator of how he’d play in a World Series game or how he’ll play in his next ASG.
uggla is not a good fielder, but this is ridiculous
did you read the thread about the worst all-star performances ever? did you notice that in 2004, roger clemens choked to the tune of six runs in one inning? the game was at his home park!
oh, and he won the cy young that year. would you worry about that guy pitching “close and late”?
Why would I worry about a guy who's pitched in big situations for 20 years?
That’s as ridiculous a statement as what you and jdub are trying to turn my concerns into. And that’s exactly what they are…..CONCERNS and observations. Big damn deal. I never made a prediction or made an absoltue claim that he was damned to fail in pressure situations. If either of you took enough time to actaully read what I wrote as opposed to looking for an opportunity to jump to conclusions, you would have possibly read the last line in my post.
You ask me if I read a post, yet its obvious neither of you bothered to really read past the first paragraph of mine and decided to take a sentence here or there and felt that summed everything up.
it's pointless
and the kind of tired speculation that we get all the time on BBTN or something.
Is it fair to form an opinion on one game? Not reallly, but what else do you have to go by?
for uggla? lots of stuff, some of which has been mentioned here. it is not surprising that he made errors. that is what dan uggla does. people have bad games.
for the clemens example, it might have been easy to say “he’s old! he’s declining!” after that ASG, but in hindsight you can say “ah, he’s proven himself, it was just an exhibition.” and he wins the cy young. you get to pick and choose how you frame it ex post facto based on this “armchair psychology” that jdub mentioned. ESPN called and it wants its platform back.
also, lost in all the hand-wringing about uggla’s mental toughness during “big moments” is the fact that the ASG is an exhibition that truly doesn’t matter, despite the home-field thing.
So i'm supposed to be like you and think
Dan Uggla is an unbelievable 2nd baseman who is above being affected by pressure and that all is right in the world. Right. Keep on Dan Uggla fanboy.
(btw, I thought it was creative how you took the Roger Clemens question from jdub and were prepared to attack my response no matter how I answered it. kudos. You really out-smarted me and definately proved a point.)
You would think that someone who is a fan of the St. Louis Cardinals and was aware of what psychologically can happen to a baseball player, would be able to at least acknowledge that pressure situations can have an effect on baseball players. One would think.
(and before you get excited thinking I’m proclaiming that Dan Uggla is the next Rick Ankiel, do yourself and everyone a favor and just let it go. It didnt’ happen, nor will it happen. So you can save it)
Anyway, since you are hell bent on forcing your “interpretation” of my opinion on me, then I guess the conversation truly is “pointless”. You can’t read past your fandom of Dan Uggla long enough to stop attacking my opinions of him even though I’ve repeated more than once that I have made no predictions and was interested in seeing how he performed in the future. Or am I not allowed to make such a statement?
But you keep spouting things like “tired speculation” and accusing me of standing on espn’s platform. That’s fine. If you refuse to (or can’t) read and understand my comments for what they are, then this truly is pointless. Just go on thinking pressure has no effect on professional athletes and that players perform to their “numbers” no matter what the situation entails. That’s fine.
Consider this “conversation” over. I have said my piece and have defended my comments in regards to Dan Uggla’s All-Star appearance for the last time. I assume most are intelligent enough to understand what my position is, and for those that refuse to, I no longer have the time.
i'm not a dan uggla fan.
he will probably taper off offensively in the second half and, as stated, his defense sucks. but it’s silly to try and speculate on his mental stability based on one shitty, meaningless all-star game.
also:
I thought it was creative how you took the Roger Clemens question from jdub and were prepared to attack my response no matter how I answered it. kudos. You really out-smarted me and definately proved a point.
the roger clemens thing came from me. and yes, it did prove a point.
good googly moogly
Just go on thinking pressure has no effect on professional athletes and that players perform to their "numbers" no matter what the situation entails.
Nobody said that. Nor did anyone say that “psychological factors” don’t have an effect on the game. However, numbers are there so that we can explain things without having to baselessly ramble about how a guy’s lost his mental edge…or about how maybe in his next “big game”, he’ll suck because he sucked in his last big game! Do numbers explain everything? Hell no! But they sure do a better job than rampant speculation. Knock it off with the straw men. No one here is an Uggla fanboy.
with the game on the line...
the biggest problem I had with the way the game played out was that with the game on the line, the last 8 innings or so, the NL was reliant on people like Christian Guzman (who was playing out of position), while Berkman and Pujols and Chipper and Utley were long gone. since “it counts”, wouldn’t you want your best players out there with the game on the line?
Managers are in a tough spot
They manage like its an exibition game still despite the fact that it counts, which I think is actually fine. The game should not count for anything it’s just stupid.
ozzie guillen said
something like he’s going to play to win, some of you won’t play, too bad, make it next year.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
And...
...when he said that he left guys like Francisco Liriano, who was in the middle of a truly remarkable season, home and took his own guys. Ozzie is a knucklehead who happens to have been a far more successful baseball man than me and who has won a WS. Go figure.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 17, 2008 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions
exactly right
if it counts, play it like it counts. let the manager decide who’s on the roster, who’s starting, etc. then play to win.
if it’s just an exhibition game for the fan’s enjoyment, let the fans decide, and don’t pretend that it’s anything more.
I would prefer the former.
I blame Billy Wagner,
but even more I blame Hurdle for pulling Brian Wilson, who was throwing gas, to bring Wagner in to pitch to a righty (why???) with 2 outs. Leave Wilson on the mound for one more hitter and the NL probably wins that game.
Wagner was brought in to face Sizemore
a lefty who singled through the right side. Then he had to pitch to Longoria. I thought it was a solid move at the time. There were other questionable moves by the managers—for example: using Ramirez at 3rd and David Wright at DH despite the fact that Wright is a better 3B, then replacing Ramirez w/ Guzman as a pinch-runner when Guzman is only marginally faster than Ramirez and having to use Guzman at 3B where he’s never played before; Francona using Frankie Rodriguez to pitch to only 2 batters so he could bring in Rivera (why use Rodriguez at all when it looks like it’s going extra innings?); Francona using Halladay and Joe Saunders for only 1 inning; Hurdle getting Lidge up in every inning to warm up w/o using him and then pulling Webb after only 1 inning, leaving him w/ Lidge as his only pitcher.
Whoa, did I miss Sizemore? I thought the first guy
Wagner faced was a righty. Maybe I was going for another beer at that time (entirely possible).
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 17, 2008 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
all-star game irony
i totally agree with those who think it’s stupid to have an exhibition game “count” for something. however, i also think it’s very funny that for all the hoopla, home field advantage has yet to really matter, since the world series has either been won by the national league team, despite not having home field advantage, or been a sweep by the AL team, in which home field advantage doesn’t really matter because the winners dominated the losers so handily.
I would think that...
in a sweep, starting the series on the road could have a different affect on the series in number of wins. Sure, it may only be just 1 win in one of the 1st couple of games, but it’s still revenue to the team with the advantage…
oh, i'm not saying that the homefield advantage isn't potentially important...
but it seems like the AL just steamrolled the NL in those sweeps, so i doubt it has made much of a difference up to this point. it’s obviously a small sample size too.
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