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kyle and jarrod

programming notes: first of all, there will be a game thread tonight for the ASG. second item: i'll be on vacation next week. thanks to HC and Valatan, who've agreed to sit in for me.

suppose kyle lohse was willing to settle for a 3-year deal to stay in st louis --- what would be a fair price to keep him around?

this is a purely hypothetical exercise; i have no idea if lohse would settle for 3 years or not. i do know the cardinals are unlikely to offer more than 3 years --- unless i’m mistaken, the only pitchers they’ve offered 4 or more guaranteed years to in recent years are carpenter, wainwright, and aj burnett. they also probably offered mike hampton more years than that back in 2000 (and good thing he didn’t take it). . . . . i also know that lohse is very happy in st louis and, after last year’s off-season in purgatory, not enthusiastic about trying to max out his earnings on the free-agent market. if the cardinals make a fair offer, he might very well take it even if it means leaving money on the table. and yes, i know lohse’s agent is scott boras, who never leaves money on the table. after last season --- and after a rough winter for boras, which included a very humiliating calling-out by alex rodriguez --- boras ain’t quite as scary as he used to be. if the cardinals want lohse to stay, and he wants to stay too, boras can’t force him into free agency. i realize that’s what happened w/ jeff weaver after 2006; it doesn’t necessarily follow that it will happen that way w/ lohse after 2008.

hopefully most of you are still down w/ the premise: if the team and the player agree that 3 years is an acceptable length, then what’s the pitcher worth?

we gotta start w/ the cards’ payroll situation, which we were discussing yesterday in the context of a possible jarrod washburn acquisition. st louis already has $25m tied up for 2009 in 3 starting pitchers --- carpenter ($14m), pineiro ($8m), and wainwright ($2.6m). they’ll have cost-controlled internal options available to fill out the rotation in wellemeyer (arb eligible next year i think), mcclellan, boggs, garcia, mortensen, todd, and parisi. anthony reyes will probably be gone. if wellemeyer is sound, that looks like plenty of material with which to assemble a pretty decent rotation, with the potential to be very good ---- and it’s already paid for. so if the cards decide not to allocate their dollars to lohse, they won’t necessarily leave themselves exposed in the rotation. but here’s the other side of the argument: all three of the top 3 men in that projected rotation (carp welley wainwright) have some injury issues, while lohse has a clean health record. and you can never have too much pitching . . . . .

let’s look at the rest of the team. they probably won’t (and shouldn’t) be signing any high-priced outfielders; ankiel / ludwick / rasmus project as the starting trio, and schumaker / mather / barton / duncan provide plenty of fodder for the bench. no need to spend a lot of money there. they’ll be spending more money naturally anyway --- ankiel and luddy will both be arb eligible and will get substantial raises (probably into the $5m range), while molina’s salary will double to $3.3m next season. they’re set at the infield corners and at catcher; the only need is at middle infield, and they’ll probably only make one high-priced expenditure there (if any). as for the bullpen: if mcclellan moves to the rotation, the only known holdovers in the ’pen will be perez franklin and brad thompson; izzy seems unlikely to be back, springer might retire, and the left-handers . . . well, who needs ’em? they have plenty of rhrp candidates in the high minors (motte, salas, worrell, jess todd, parisi, possibly boggs) but no left-handers; they might need to spend a few million to sign one.

so a quick n dirty roster matrix, lising only the guys already under control for next year:

ROTATION carp, wagonmaker, pineiro, welley, +1 promotion from memphis $26m
LINEUP ludwick, ankiel, rasmus, pujols, glaus, kennedy, ryan, molina $45m or so
BULLPEN franklin, perez, thompson, and internal promotions $3.5m commited so far
BENCH ryan, plus 2 of duncan / schu / barton / mather $1.5m
COMMITTED $76m
NEEDS starting 2b or ss, lh reliever(s), backup c and if $15m - $20m (est)

ok; this leaves us with a payroll of $90 to $95m, which leaves the cards somewhere around $10m below their self-imposed ceiling. that’s the amount they can afford to throw at kyle lohse (or some other pitcher) without leaving themselves short in other areas of the roster --- ie, without skimping on a starting ss or an lhrp. when discussing washburn yesterday, i had blanched at the idea of committing $10m to another starting pitcher, because i thought it would tie up too much in the rotation and leave the team short elsewhere on the roster; having looked at it more carefully, i now think a $10m pitcher is an affordable luxury.

is lohse worth it? well, let’s put it this way: if jeff suppan and carlos silva and gil meche and jarrod washburn are worth $10m a year --- and i am not necessarily agreeing they are worth that money, but that’s what the market valued them at --- then lohse most definitely is worth it. his performance this year is not a mirage --- his FIP (3.67) is very close to his ERA (3.39), a strong indicator that he hasn’t just been getting lucky. in fact, lohse’s FIPs (see his fangraphs page) have been very consistent throughout his career, and consistently decent --- almost always in the 4.50 range. compare his FIPs to suppan’s --- very similar. lohse has a slightly lower home-run rate than usual this year, because he’s pitching in a pitcher’s park instead of in a bandbox, and his BABIP is down just a tick, because he has a great defense behind him; on the whole, though, i think his performance is largely sustainable. indeed, he has sustained it since coming to the national league in august 2006. in that 2-year span, lohse has a suppanish 23-19 / 4.22 mark --- the 14th-best era among nl pitchers over that period. he’s been almost exactly as good as suppan over that span (supps is 21-20, 4.28) and about as good as guys like aaron harang (24-21, 4.07) and brad penny (27-17, 4.23) --- although both of the latter, it should be noted, play in front of much weaker defenses than lohse currently does. given his age (he turns 30 in december), his spotless health record, and the consistency of his FIPs (which --- say it with me, people --- are highly predictive of future performance), lohse is a very good bet to pitch 190 innings for each of the next 3 years with eras in the 4.00 range.

is that worth $10m a year? on a one-year deal, it’s definitely worth it; on a 3-year deal, i don’t think it’s worth it to the cardinals. let me repeat the last 3 words --- to the cardinals. it might make sense for some other franchise to make that investment, and for lohse’s sake i hope somebody gives it to him. but i don’t think the cardinals need the pitching that badly, particularly in years 2 and 3 of the hypothesized contract. by then the cards are almost certain to have one or more pitchers available internally (read: very cheaply) who are at least as good as lohse --- not potentially as good, but actually as good. that pitcher or pitchers won’t necessarily be ready in 2009, although they might be; but by 2010, i’m confident that one or more youngsters from that group i listed above (garcia, mortensen, et al) will have stepped forward and gotten himself established as a reliable big-league starter --- much as wainwright did in 2006-07. in which case, spending $10m on kyle lohse for those years would be a waste of money. if he'd give a deep discount --- say, 3 years at $8.5m per --- i would be more interested, because then lohse would more likely be an appealing trade commodity if the cards wound up w/ a surplus. another possibility would be to offer $10m per year, but front-load the deal --- offer him $13m for 2009 and $8.5m each for 2010-11; the avg annual salary is $10m, but the cards preserve payroll flexibility / tradeability.

that’s my opinion; yours may differ. discuss below.

now, let me cycle back around to jarrod washburn. the more i think about this guy, the more i like the idea of picking him up. the first thing to like about it is that, reportedly, the mariners aren’t asking for much in return; they just want a team to pick up his salary, which is about $4m for the balance of 2008 and $10m in 2009. as i said above, i now believe the cards can afford a $10m pitcher next season --- and the obligation to washburn would end after 2009, when the cards’ farm system is ready to produce solid replacements. unlike the make-believe 3-year commitment to lohse, this one is of an acceptable length, and --- better yet --- it makes the team better this year, when they’re fighting for a playoff spot. if the cards can acquire him without losing any prospects who matter, it is almost the equivalent of getting a free-agent signing midseason --- it would cost the team money but not talent. and the opportunity cost wouldn’t be particularly high, either --- ie, it probably wouldn’t block a deserving youngster from promotion.

is jarrod washburn a good pitcher? a lot of you think he sucks, but i refer you again to his FIPs --- mirror images of lohse’s and suppan’s. but he has compiled them in the dh league, which means he’s actually been slightly better than those two. for those of you who don’t really like FIP, check out washburn’s actual era’s --- again, very consistent. once you adjust for the dh, he’s been the nl-equivalent of a low-4.00s pitcher for 6 years in a row. and that includes this season, in which his numbers have been distorted by terrible defense. in his career, washburn has given up a .220 batting average on groundballs, which is right around average. but this year, batters are hitting .273 against him on grounders --- that’s a freaky stat and not likely to continue. and a good cardinal infield is likely to turn some of those groundball base hits into outs. if we apply washburn’s career average on grounders (.220) to his current-year line, he yields 7 fewer base hits, which translates to 5 fewer runs --- and an era of 4.40, rather than 4.83. again, that’s a 4.40 era in the dh league; in the nl, it’s more like 4.00 to 4.15. in other words, jeff suppan . . .

in every area that lies partly or wholly under a pitcher’s control --- k rate, bb rate, hr rate, gb rate, ld rate --- washburn is at or near his career averages; he’s not pitching worse this season than usual, he’s just getting worse results. but his results are due to improve as long as he keeps throwing the ball the same way. indeed, they are already improving. washburn had a dreadful stretch in may, which ended with a 2-inning, 9-run pounding at the hands of the tigers on may 21. but in 9 starts since then, washburn has an era of 3.02 and an opponent ops of .732. while the cardinals do have more talented pitchers in their organization --- including boggs, garcia, maybe mortensen and todd --- they don’t have more reliable pitchers than washburn; it often takes time for talent to translate into big-league performance. boggs might be better than washburn some day, but he clearly isn’t at this moment in time --- witness his upside-down k/bb ratio (12 ks, 17 bbs) in his short stint with the cards. we’ll find out soon enough how readily jaime garcia's talent translates to the big leagues. (for what it’s worth, john sickels agrees with azruavatar that garcia probably needs some more time at triple A.)

it is reasonable for the cards to give garcia a chance and see how he fares; if he does well, then maybe there’s no need to add a veteran for the stretch run. but if jaime struggles --- and if washburn can be acquired for a second- or third-tier prospect such as, let’s say, mke parisi --- then i think he’d improve the team in the short run without hamstringing them in the long run. and that’s the idea, right? get better today without messing up the plans for tomorrow.

let’s see how it plays out.

0 recs | Comment 242 comments

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I have gotten over my

dismay about crossing the $10 million barrier for average ML starters. It’s just the reality now (and it ain’t my money anyway), so, whether it’s Washburn for 1 year or Lohse for 3, I don’t care. The nice thing about a reliable #3 starter is that it allows you to trade some of those young pitchers (pitchers being the currency of MLB) for maybe a hot-shit middle infielder or another outfielder if Ank or Luddy goes down with injury, or Ank goes FA and leaves. (And I’m talking about trade possibilities over the next 3 years, not just this season, BTW.)

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 15, 2008 9:32 AM EDT   0 recs

Speaking of hot-**** MIFs

It’ll be interesting to see how Kozma develops over the next three years. Wouldn’t it be dandy if we had our own hot-** MIF?

by mojowo11 on Jul 15, 2008 9:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Even better -- how about 2 of 'em?

And BTW, be very careful with your spelling when you use “hot” and “MIF” in a comment … wouldn’t want VEB to get the wrong kind of Google hits if you know what I mean. =D

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 15, 2008 9:47 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Haha yeah

I actually just got myself…I started to scan down the comments and I was like, “Who’s posting stuff about that on here?”

Then I was like, “Oh…that’s me.”

From now on it’s “hot middle IFs.”

by mojowo11 on Jul 15, 2008 11:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Opinions on "learning" on the job

I would be interested to hear opinions on these young pitchers (Boggs, Parisi, Garcia, etc.) getting big league experience. My thoughts are that pitchers like these are more than likely going to take some beatings early in their career. It may take 10-15 starts for them to settle down, trust their stuff, and/or refine certain pitches before they begin to show the kind of pitchers they can be. I flashback to Dan Haren. He took some ugly beatings when he first came up. Evidently, LaRussa and Duncan didn’t see eye to eye on his potential. LaRussa didn’t have the patience to let him learn at the big leagues, while Duncan saw the potential that existed and eventually blossomed. My concern is that we are already headed down a similar path with this crop of young pitchers. Rightly or wrongly, Tony always wants to win now. Thoughts??

by lefty fan on Jul 15, 2008 9:43 AM EDT   0 recs

It will always be a battle with TLR, I think.

Ideally you would want to be in a spot where you have 3 or 4 solid veteran (i.e., at least 2nd or 3rd-year) starters, and a pipeline of good young SPs such that you could always have one of the young-uns in the #5 spot. I think TLR would be fine with that, it’s the prospect of relying on a 2nd-year guy or a rookie in the #1, 2 or 3 spot that he has a problem with.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 15, 2008 9:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Using the young guns as a 5th starter seems reasonable

and in ‘09 we should have a top heavy rotation loaded with veterans. Another option could be working them through the bullpen. It worked with Wainwright even though he still had a learning curve early last year as a starter. Wainwright is also a special talent that didn’t require a ton of patience. I’m wondering what they’ll do with McClellan next season. He is too valuable in the pen to be moved, in my estimation, given the struggles of everyone else.

by lefty fan on Jul 15, 2008 10:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wainwright

i wouldn’t say he was that special of a talent. look at his minor league record. he took his lumps in AAA and learned there. unfortunately some guys can dominate AAA with stuff that will get hammered in the bigs, so if they just continue to pitch like they did before in AAA they will dominate and not learn anything.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 15, 2008 10:27 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wainwright was a first round pick.

Those guys are expected to make it…...

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 15, 2008 10:35 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

waino

i’m not saying he wasn’t a good prospect. i’m just saying that he took his lumps in AAA and learned from them. its not like he was just flat out dominant without ever struggling like some people believe because he didn’t struggle in the bigs.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 15, 2008 10:59 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You're not wrong DJ

Before spring training 2006, Wainwright wasn’t living up to his potential by his own admission but the talent was there. Something clicked before the 2006 season but even then he was deemed to have lost an “open” competition with Ponson. He gained some valuable experience in the ‘pen and the rest is history. He’s our ace this year and I think he will be in ‘09 too even with Carpenter back.

by lefty fan on Jul 15, 2008 11:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wainwright was...

regarded as the number 1 pitching prospect in the Braves organization when we acquired him. They said he had the stuff to be a #1 or #2 guy in the rotation.

by Jumsy on Jul 15, 2008 10:42 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

IIRC

Didnt he clash with Mazzone? Or, did Mazzone give up on him? I guess I cant remember.

by njnick on Jul 15, 2008 10:47 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The Braves

REALLY wanted J.D. Drew (thinking they could sign him… didn’t work), and Wainer was the price of admission. He’d never been with the big club. He Who Shall Not Be Named clashed with Mazzone (and Duncan, and apparently with Sweet Lou)... not Wainwright.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 15, 2008 11:03 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Tony' concept

of an “apprenticeship” rookie year in the ‘pen for young starters has a lot of merit, to my mind. It lets a guy get acclimated to the big leagues without the pressure of starting every fifth day. You start the season by using the “rook” in low-leverage situations, and as he continues to have success, put him in higher-pressure situations as the season goes along.

Wainwright is the obvious example; he’d never been a bullpenner until ‘06; which made the MSM’s wailing about “converting” him from closer to starter in ‘07 even more ridiculous! Kyle McClellan is this year’s obvious candidate for the ‘09 rotation (unless one thinks he’s more valuable as the 8th or 9th-inning guy!)

When the Cards traded Haren, they thought they were getting one of the best starters in the American League! It didn’t work out, but just because they traded Haren didn’t mean the Cards thought he wouldn’t be good!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 15, 2008 11:27 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Given that Garcia is not ready to start in the majors

But an ideal time line would project him into the 2010 rotation, I think the Cards LHRP problem is far better solved by promoting him for a 1 year apprenticeship in the pen as the lefty paired up with the best LHRP the Cards can find through free agency for less than $1 million. Such a move would allow more dollar to be allocated to the middle infield and to the starting pitching.

by JMedwick on Jul 15, 2008 10:04 AM EDT   0 recs

The one year deal

is the most appealing thing about Washburn and, in that respect, it does make him more attractive than Lohse. While I do appreciate, and am surprised by the similarities between Washburn’s, Suppan’s, and Lohse’s FIPs, there is one big difference between the 3 pitchers - their respective GB rates. Suppan’s is 29th among 99 qualifying MLB starters. Lohse’s is 33rd and Washburn’s is 82nd - one of the worst in the big leagues. Combine that w/ being 73rd in his K rate and he’s just not that good.

I will agree w/ the premise that he makes the team better this year. He might make it better next year, but I’d rather try the young guys and find out. I’ll also buy the premise that he’s durable—you can count on a Suppan-like 185-190 innings out of him and, to that end, it might make the team better next year even if he doesn’t pitch better than the young guys. So, I guess you’ve convinced me that trading a Parisi-like prospect for him, even if the M’s don’t eat any money, might be a good idea. He probably adds 1.5-2 wins this year over Boggs and the rest.

However, there’s another opportunity cost w/ this acquisition. It pretty much precludes a run - either by trade this year or as an FA in the offseason should he opt out - at A.J. Burnett. Now, I’m not sure how I feel about trying to acquire him but there’s little doubt that he’s better than Washburn. He will, however, cost much more in terms of prospects. That’s a big plus in my book for Washburn. Might a trade for Burnett mean that he assumes the last 2 years of his contract and, rather than getting Washburn for 1 1/3 years, we could have Burnett for 2 1/3 years. Which is better? It depends on the cost but it’s pretty clear to me that we can’t have both.

by chuckb on Jul 15, 2008 10:09 AM EDT   0 recs

I'm not sure I understand why Washburn at 1 year is more attractive than

Loshe at 3. Washburn is 34 in August and his fastball is losing speed. Loshe is 30 and posting the best GB rates of his career. If we’re selling durability as both of their strong suits, I’ll take Loshe for 3 years and deal some prospects for other components.

Also, re: Washburn’s GB BABIP—that may be high but his LD BABIP is about 5% low. Any gains you assume from the GB are more than canceled out by the LD. And he’s allowing more LD than ever at 23%. This looks like a pitcher on the precipice of decline to me.

by azruavatar on Jul 15, 2008 10:18 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

washburn

i think the most important thing to look at in the lohse vs washburn debate is that adding washburn helps us this year, but signing lohse long term does nothing for this years team. since next year they will likely cost the same and probably be similar pitchers, i would rather take them both this year and have washburn for next than lock up lohse for 3. also long term commitments to pitchers scare me so the shorter the better. even at just 3 years i think pitchers are too risky health wise.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 15, 2008 10:34 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You're assuming

of course, that Washburn helps the club this year. I’m not sold that he would do that. Right now you have Wainwright on the DL expected to return on or around Aug 1st. If he does that, the rotation looks like this:

Wainwright
Lohse
Looper
Pineiro
Wellemeyer

Who is he better than in that group? Answer: Nobody. So why would they even consider doing this? What trading for Washburn does do: If he sucks, which he has for a lot of this year, he’s basically penciled in as the 4th starter next year (Loop is probably gone)—at $10 million per year (for a FOURTH STARTER!!!). He precludes the club from actually looking at the free agent market at all next year for a starting pitcher, when there looks to be some pretty good talent hitting that market after this year.

IMO, you don’t commit to 1.5 years of league averageness when you don’t know what the market (FA or trade) will look like next off season. The biggest need for this club currently and going into next season is not at starting pitcher, it’s getting a couple of middle infielders that can hit their way out of a wet paper bag.

If I had to choose, assuming that a 3Y/$30M deal would keep Lohse in the BOB, I would sign him and look to move a couple of pitching prospects for a starting SS - hoping that the Cards could then get Orlando Hudson to sign in the offseason. OR, you keep Lohse, keep McClellan in the bullpen, and audition Garcia/Boggs/Todd/FA-offseason-DaveDuncan-project for the 5th starter next year. Garcia and Boggs go into the bullpen if they don’t make the rotation, the Dunc project is released if he doesn’t, and Todd goes the AAA and is the first injury call-up. At least at this point you still have the flexibility - trading for Washburn gives you none of that, and not too many wins this season either.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 15, 2008 12:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

looper < washburn

by azruavatar on Jul 15, 2008 12:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Show me that

statistically he’s a better pitcher, this year, than Looper. For one, he’s not a groundball pitcher, so he doesn’t fit into the Duncan philosophy. Second, he’s got a 82 ERA+ in a pitchers park in the DH league—I don’t buy that he’s going to improve to better than the 99 ERA+ that Looper has when switching to a smaller ballpark in the national league. I think these things nearly cancel themselves out, and Looper gets a higher GB%, and has a 17 point advantage in ERA+, and he’s not signed for $10 million next year.

Besides that, do you think that Looper goes to the pen if we acquire him? I highly doubt that. It’s going to be Pineiro more than likely—which really doesn’t make any sense either, since he’s already signed for next season.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 15, 2008 12:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Saying that

players play in a pitcher’s park and then citing a park-adjusted stat is redundant. Anyway, I don’t want any part of Wasburn, but he has been better this year than Looper. He has a pretty solid FIP, as mentioned in the original post.

by haltz on Jul 15, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It’s easily to underestimate how awful the defense is behind Washburn in Seattle but it’s really bad. Given our outfield defense, it’s not a big deal that he’s a flyball pitcher since our outfield is quite solid. Looper is already benefiting from that and at best he’s Washburn’s equal. Seattle may have 2 above average defender on their entire field this year (Beltre, Ichiro) and then a bunch of below average or really awful guys. Outside of Duncan in LF the Cardinals feature average or better defenders at every position.

I’m sure you’re looking at Looper’s ERA for this season which is fortunate since he recently went on a nice little run. But last season, without adjustments, he was marginally worse than Washburn. There’s a real argument that Washburn is about a win better than Looper.

by azruavatar on Jul 15, 2008 1:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

one win?

one win is worth having him on the roster next season at 10 million?

Looper is already benefiting from that and at best he’s Washburn’s equal

If at his best he’s Washburn’s equal (and he’s been good this year), and he’s a free agent after the season, it doesn’t stand to reason to trade for a guy you very nearly already have talent wise. Nor did you address my point about whether Looper is the one that goes to the pen if that deal is made—I highly doubt that he does.

You, az, have been talking about the bright future and the roster flexibility of 2009, and all this deal does is lessen the flexibility and keep the club mired in mediocre, aging pitchers for another year, at $10 millon no less.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 15, 2008 2:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

never argued for the deal

just noting that Washburn is better than Looper. As far as whether Looper is the one who’ll wind up in the pen—beats me. I can’t make heads or tails of management’s decisions as of late.

by azruavatar on Jul 15, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Betancourt

is no slouch on defense at SS.

by Jumsy on Jul 15, 2008 4:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

while this is hearsay

the USSM guys routinely note how bad he’s gotten defensively over the last few seasons going from an above average defender to a below average one rather quickly. I can’t vouch for much beyond that but I respect their opinions.

by azruavatar on Jul 15, 2008 6:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

this assumes

that Wellemeyer makes it through the year or that Carpenter is able to join the rotation to replace him. Either of those is iffy at this point. It also assumes that Pineiro and Wainwright remain healthy for the rest of the season. The idea is that Washburn is better than Boggs/Garcia/Parisi this season.

If your premise is correct - that those 5 remain our starters for the rest of the season - then, you’re right: I don’t want Washburn’s obligation next year either. But that’s a pretty big assumption to begin with.

by chuckb on Jul 15, 2008 1:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Your assumption is correct...

if Wellemeyer doesn’t make it through the season, then Washburn becomes the guy to fill as the 5th starter right? How many starts is the fifth starter really going to get in the remaining games this season. I could figure it out probably, but I don’t have enough time today to pore over the schedule. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that it’s 8-10 starts. Does having him over Boggs/Garcia/Parisi really represent an advantage over making a trade for, say, Rhodes, who helps to shore up the bullpen from the left side and doesn’t cost us anything next year?

In other words, is this trade is the absolute best +/- effect for this team? I don’t think Washburn provides a marginally better starter than those guys—while Rhodes provides a much better option than either Flores brother in the bullpen.

You guys are looking at this as viable because it doesn’t cost the Cardinals that much to get him, so why not roll the dice. I think adding $10 million to next years payroll for a guy that may not be marginally better than the current pitchers on the roster and destroying all flexibility in the salary structure for next year is NOT worth the marginal improvement, if any, for this year.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 15, 2008 2:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

assumption

you are assuming that Washburn continue to pitch here as he has in Seattle and be a bad pitcher. The argument is that he would be a better pitcher here b/c of the better defense and being in the NL. Therefore, he would be a better pitcher than Looper and Piniero likely and would not be our “5th Starter.”

Also adding the $10 million would not totally destroy the flexibility for next year. Lboros has shown in the post that they would still have enough money to get a 2nd baseman or SS and a lefty reliever.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 15, 2008 3:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

But...

not another starting pitcher if he stinks out the joint—and he might do just that. Regardless of what his peripherals look like, bringing him to St. Louis does not just magically make him a better pitcher. Even if he’s better than he’s been in Seattle, he’s still barely better than what the Cards have, and he’s more expensive next year than everyone else, just by the virtue of having a contract at all over Looper, and being more expensive than Piniero who we have already next year anyway. Is he really $3 million better than either of those guys? I say no. If we’re going to pay somone that kind of money carrying over to next year I’d prefer to pay someone who has a chance that his upside is better than league average.

He’s coming here and he’ll take the spot in the rotation of whoever is going to the pen. If it’s Looper, which I doubt, then he’s the 4th starter, and if it’s Piniero (more likely) than he fits into the fifth slot. Or he’s Wellemeyer insurance and is the #3 behind WW and Lohse. Does moving Piniero or Looper to the pen make us a better team? We have plenty of guys like that out there, and Piniero hasn’t been effective as a reliever in his career.

Adding a lefty in the pen for this year makes this team a whole lot better immediately as the bullpen is our weakest link at the moment. Leaving the opportunity open fiscally for the offseason allows us more money to look at upgrading the bullpen and middle infield instead of committing the money to someone who may not be much better than someone who’s cheaper next year. If you trade for Washburn, you’re effectively telling Lohse he’s gone after the season, or telling Tony that no middle infield help is on the way either, because the team can’t afford both, much less all three.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 15, 2008 4:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

al average on LDs is .725

and washburn is yielding an average of .707 — his luck on line drives is only worth 1 base hit.

per fangraphs, his FB velocity is steady w/ last year at 87.5 mph, although it is down from 2005-06 when it averaged 88.5. you are right, however, that hitters are killing his FB - per josh kalk’s pitch FX tool, they are hitting almost .400 when they put the FB in play and slugging about .600. if we factored in strikeouts (which the Fx tool doesn’t do) the averages wouldn’t be quite as alarming, but it’s pretty clear the FB isn’t an effective pitch for him anymore. slider appears to be his best pitch.

link the the FX tool - http://baseball.bornbybits.com/php/2008_tool.php?pit=132220&bat=0&type=-1&result=-1&count=-1&r_spd=1&spd=-1&r_brx=1&brx=-100&r_brz=1&brz=-100&l_b=0

by lboros on Jul 15, 2008 10:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

his BR numbers show

a career BABIP on LD of .732 and 2008 BABIP of .693—are we looking at different numbers?

by azruavatar on Jul 15, 2008 10:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

we must be

when i check BR, it shows him at a .707 BABIP on line drives in 2008

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/psplit.cgi?n1=washbja01&year=2008

by lboros on Jul 15, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

ok, i've figured it out

you’re talking about BABIP — ie, not counting the 1 homer that washburn has yielded on a line drive this year - and i’m talking about plain old BA. that explains the discrepancy.

it’s such a small discrepancy (ie, 1 hit) it doesn’t seem worth haggling over. a more pertinent question is — is washburn’s high LD rate this year a random event, or is it evidence that he’s breaking down? i tend to interpret it as just random — there’s no other evidence (lower k rate, higher HR rate) to suggest that hitters are getting better looks off him this year than in the past. but if i’m wrong, then washburn could be a bust. i’d still take my chances

by lboros on Jul 15, 2008 11:26 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

AZ, sorry to keep replying to myself

but if we’re talking about guys getting lucky on line drives, lohse is the lucky one this year. his batting avg allowed on line drives is just .633 —80 points below the league avg -- and his BABIP on line drives is just .625. with a normal BABIP on line drives, he’d be 7 hits / 5 runs worse, raising his ERA to 3.77.

i don’t dispute that lohse is a better pitcher than washburn. but i think they’re a lot closer in ability than the surface stats suggest. to me the difference in their abilities is not worth 2 years / $20 million . . . .

by lboros on Jul 15, 2008 12:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

lohse has also been pretty lucky on HR's

roughly 5% HR/FB rate vs NL average of about 9.3%, while washburn (7.8%) has been right at the league average (8.2%).

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 15, 2008 12:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

FYI my HR/FB number look different from fangraphs

I used the batted ball split data from B-R, which seems to be different from Fangraphs- fangraphs says he’s had 127 FB’s hit against him, while B-R says 115 or 118 (not sure how you can have a batted ball PA without it being a batted ball AB?)

Strangeness. Maybe B-R doesn’t count foul pop-outs, or IFFB’s? 127- (6 IFFB’s) – (6 HR’s) makes 115?

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 15, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

duh

of course ;)

Unfortunately the question is still how to account for the discrepancy between B-R’s 118 and Fangraph’s 127.

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 15, 2008 4:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It's probably a

STATS / Retrosheet classification thing. Looks like some Retrosheet (BRef) has him with six more liners.

by haltz on Jul 15, 2008 4:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hmm

extra word there. nice.

by haltz on Jul 15, 2008 4:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not arguing that there's a huge disparity in skill sets.

I’d hope Lohse would take around a 30M dollar deal. I do think there’s a lot more margin for deterioration in Lohse’s skillset than Washburn’s.

by azruavatar on Jul 15, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Piggyback

Despite LB’s well thought out and informed advocacy of Washburn as a band-aid type of acquisition, I’m still not too excited about such a maneuver. Add to this, a hypothetical either/or proposition between the 34-year old Washburn and 30-year old Lohse, and I’m really unethused. It’s a tricky tightrope to walk, because Washburn is probably a better fifth option for the remainder of this year than our current choices, but he is likely not the better option next season. In addition, Washburn will come far cheaper prospect-wise than most other additions.

Acquiring Washburn essentially shows Lohse to the door come November and I’d rather have Lohse slotted into the rotation next year (and the next, and the next) than Washburn. Of course, this is assuming that we are able to re-sign Lohse. I believe this would hinge on how sure Mo is that Wainwright will be back in early August. If Wagonmaker joins the rotation and that, once back, the injury will not recur. If Wainwright is Wainwright through season’s end, the need for adding a Washburn-type is lessened dramatically. It’s this bet that feeds Mo’s above-mentioned priority list, IMO.

by bgh on Jul 15, 2008 10:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He's better than:

Piniero and Looper? That’s a total toss up, and it’s not worth the $10 million next year to find out.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 15, 2008 12:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm just not sure

I see the merit in locking up Lohse for 3 at $10M per. In 2010 and 11, as LB implies, won’t at least 1 of Todd, Garcia, Mortensen or Boggs - or probably 2 - be as good or better for the major league minimum than Lohse will be for $10M? Washburn doesn’t excite me at all but I think we’ll all agree that he makes the team a little better this year. HIs other merit is that he’d be only locked up for 1 more.

There are so few SP’s who’ll be available who are free agents after this year also. I doubt Lowe will be available. Randy Wolf is about the only one. Other guys may be available (Padilla, for example) who are locked up beyond 1 year and just aren’t at all appealing.

A.J. Burnett could be had. Would he be worth Anderson, Mather, and Boggs if he would agree not to opt out of the contract until it expires? They may not take that offer but I don’t think we’d have to offer a lot more.

by chuckb on Jul 15, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd agree that at least one will be

But 2 might be pushing it. I like the relative security that Lohse gives us in case someone goes down like a Carpenter, Welly or Wainwright goes down. I’d put quite a bit of money that at least one of those 3 will miss some significant time during the hypothetical three years of Lohse.

I really like a rotation comprised of 3-4 proven vets with 1 or 2 up and comers. Signing Lohse to a 3 year deal gives us more security that the balance remains 3-4 vets with 1-2 newbies as well as increases our flexibility to use the rookies in the pen or as trade leverage.

by birdo rojo on Jul 15, 2008 11:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hedging our bet on The Colonel

I believe that adding a proven comodity like Lohse is not done to replace Todd, Garcia, Mortensen or Boggs; although, if they all develop into MLB-ready pitchers by 2011, then it inevitably would. If we are fortunate to have such a copious bumper crop of MLB-ready, under control youngsters, then Lohse could probably be dealt since his $10M/year hypothetical salary would likely be extemely reasonably by the 2009/10 offseason.

I view Lohse, due to his track record as a starter in terms of FIP and lack of injuries (knock on wood), as insurance for The Colonel. I’m not yet convinced that he will be a mainstay in the rotation, due to his health and his recent slide (which I suspect is due to his elbow barking).

If we could get Burnett for that bounty, I think we should do it, which would completely change the Lohse-or-Washburn next year hypo.

by bgh on Jul 15, 2008 11:26 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And this is the second year in a row Wellemeyer has

had elbow issues. I’d be very careful here…..... his performance has not been the same since-which makes me wonder if he’s really recovered completely, and if he can continue to take on a starters workload. Now and long term.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 15, 2008 11:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess I have a great deal of trepidation

over Carpenter’s return and Wellemeyer’s continued health. That may help clarify the situation but outside of Wainwright, I don’t see a rotation stalwart over the next 3 years.

by azruavatar on Jul 15, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

re: their health. Do you fashion Lohse as a “rotation stalwart over the next 3 years?” I see him as a nice 3rd or 4th starter. Maybe by “stalwart” you meant someone you can count on for 190 or so innings a year, rather than a #1 or #2 - the way Wellemeyer was pitching before he got hurt or what we’ve come to expect from Carp. If you mean a steady hand in the middle/back end of the rotation the way Suppan was - I’ll agree that Lohse can probably be that. However, I still think at least 1 and probably 2 of the 4 I mentioned above (assuming Ottavino or someone else doesn’t come along) can probably do that as well.

by chuckb on Jul 15, 2008 1:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

stalwart

meaning 3/4 guy who gives you consistent innings totals.

by azruavatar on Jul 15, 2008 2:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Consistency is the key

Lohse is Suppan-like in his inning-munching. He gobbles up about 190 innings per year. This while remaining healthy. As LB has stated in the thread, durability is an important undervalued trait. This is a trait that Wellemeyer has yet to demonstrate, and one that we can’t project on the transitioning youngsters. This, in my mind, makes a 3-year deal for Lohse a lesser gamble than for the average pitcher.

by bgh on Jul 15, 2008 2:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pineiro

When evaluating resigning Loshe, how bad does the Pineiro 2 year deal look now? Erase Pineiro from the equation and the Cards are great shape salary wise to slide Loshe into the rotation. I wonder if we could dump Pineiro? One year contracts for starting pitchers can be a valuable thing in MLB. Very low risk. We might have to package him with a prospect to make a team bite.

by jjray on Jul 15, 2008 10:41 AM EDT   0 recs

Which reminds me......

if we sign Lohse now, we buy high, no?

We bought high on Piniero IMO….his salary for next year looks kind of high for what we are likely to get. I’m with you…..he might be one they should look to move.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 15, 2008 10:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs