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Chasing Windmills

A quick promotional before the post, the St. Louis National Adult Baseball Association is having their All Star Charity game on Sunday, July 20th.  Numerous organizations, including the Cardinals, have made contributions toward the event that will benefit St. Louis Children's Hospital.  If you're looking for a relaxing night out with the family and you want to support a good cause at the same time, you should consider attending the game.

After the Mark Mulder implosion on Wednesday, I debated writing a scathing post about the handling of that situation.  Thankfully, I didn't have to post yesterday but the whole situation reeks of inept decisions by management for reasons that aren't, first and foremost, about winning games.  Mulder consistently struggled in the minors failing to put together two consecutive successful starts.  Regardless of that, he was granted the opportunity to start against a superb offensive team in a hitter's ballpark.  That simply doesn't make sense.  To add insult to injury, Mulder complains of an injury within 10 days of being activated from the DL when the medical teal pronounced him "healthy".  I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth and a great deal of disappointment in the judgment of the Cardinal's decision makers.  Mulder's rehab has been naught but a quixotic escapade since being resigned for 13M dollars.

Fresh on the heels of that farce comes the decision to call up Jaime Garcia.  As Larry noted yesterday, there are some valid reasons to think that Garcia isn't ready for the bigs.  Having watched the last 3 Garcia starts on video, I can't help but agree with those statistical conclusions.  The command doesn't appear to be there.  The curveball that he's been renowned for gets hung far too often.  The lack of an effective third pitch is worrisome as well.  In much the same way that Mitchell Boggs wasn't ready, Jaime Garcia isn't either.  Since June 3rd and 8th, Garcia hasn't managed to string together quality starts.  Why the sudden belief that he's going to be able to retire major leaguers on a regular basis?

That said, the team may feel like they're backed into a corner.  With Wainwright still weeks away there's really only two players that you could consider developmentally ready and the club seems to have abandoned hope for both of them.  Obviously, Anthony Reyes is not a part of this team's future.  I'm not going to argue that he's a good pitcher or that he's even an MLB quality pitcher but there's really nothing left to learn in the minors with him.  I think the same can be said for Mike Parisi who has been exceptional in his last two starts.  I'm not a Parisi backer in the long term b/c I think he's a fringe MLB starter but that's exactly what the team is looking for right now.  Instead of calling up Reyes or Parisi, or Mitchell Boggs who was already on the 40-man roster and had already seen big league action, they're calling up another rookie who just isn't ready yet.  If they really detest all three of those options, why not go snag a guy like Jack Cassel from the Astros for a minor league reliever or some such.  Stop setting up players to fail.  It's not good for them and it's not good for the team.

While numerous people have advocated acquiring another arm (and if they do, I vote for Burnett), I'm firmly in the camp that the team needs another bat.  Despite having the 3rd best OPS in the National League the Cardinals have scored just the 7th most runs -- middle of the pack -- and they've gotten the 3rd most at bats.  I'd love to throw down some research right here about consistent hitters but I don't have any, which makes my following claim specious in it's subjectivity.  It seems like the Cardinals consist of one great bat (Pujols), 3 streaky sluggers (Glaus, Ankiel, Ludwick), a bunch of complimentary and useful offensive players, and then some absolute offensive zeros (Izturis, Ryan, Kennedy).  It turns into a feast or famine situation when the sluggers stop slugging.

From June 11th, when Ryan Ludwick hit his 15th HR, till July 5th Ludwick went 21 games without a HR posting a .565 OPS in 72 ABs.  He'd been a tremendous offensive force for the Cardinals previously but he simply disappeared into a funk.  From April 30th to June 6th, Rick Ankiel watched his OPS plummet nearly 100 pts.  He hit just 5 HRs in 112 ABs compared to July when he's hit 4 HRs in 31 ABs.  Troy Glaus ended May after 189 ABs with a slugging percentage of .397 and a total of 3 HRs.  In the following 127 ABs, he's hit 10 HRs and raised his slugging 50 pts.  It's not that these players are without offensive value or even defensive value.  I just question the stability of an offensive whose core is prone to what seems like extended slumps.

There's a variety of ways to improve the club offensively.  When Colby Rasmus returns from his strained groin, I'd think that he's made enough noise in Memphis (June stats - .337/.442/.535 w/ good peripherals) to warrant a look in left field.  It's not that Schumaker hasn't been surprisingly good but the team needs a boost offensively and Rasmus has that kind of potential.  The popular target as of late seems to be Matt Holliday who has been discussed and dissected in several previous threads.  I'm not a fan of that option (given what I perceive to be the asking price and Holliday's on the road numbers) but I can understand the rationale behind it.  Barry Bonds remains available (presumably for very little) and could possibly become the Cardinals second best offensive player upon arrival.  (The defensive concerns are overblown, imo, with Ankiel in center and Skip available on the bench.  If we survived Chris in LF, we can survive Barry.) Of course, if all my wishes were being granted, the Cardinals could acquire Brian Roberts whose having a tremendous offensive year.

I don't watch those players enough to make a claim that they are or aren't streaky but an argument can be made that they all represent an upgrade offensively.  The Cardinals need a little push to get from middling offensive team to good offensive team.  The pitching can get that push from a healthy Wellemeyer and Wainwright. I don't see the possibility of that boost for the offense outside of, perhaps, Rasmus.  If the Cardinals do acquire another pitcher, I don't think anyone out there is enough to shore up the rotation w/o contributions from Wainwright and Wellemeyer.  If we get contributions from Wainwright and Wellemeyer, I'm not sure any pitcher out there is the right combination of a significant upgrade and not too costly in prospects.  I'm not sure that I want the Cardinals to acquire a player via trade but I am sure that I'd rather see another bat than an arm.  The chasm, be it big or small, between TLR's perception and the front office's perception of the needs and possibilities of fulling those short term needs leaves me with little sense of what direction is really going to be taken prior to the deadline.  The Cardinals will have to sally forth with their current roster and perhaps someone will come to help battle the giants.

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Winning now

I feel that we should trade anyone short of Rasmus and Todd to upgrade this team now. Two years of Holliday would be very nice, and outfield of Holliday, Rasmus and Ankiel would be something to see. We will only get so many years of Pujols in his prime, and I think we should do everything to make the most of these years. That means win now (we are in striking distance) and spend the money when it frees up (Mulder, Izzy, Encarnician, Kennedy, Looper).

by CJW on Jul 11, 2008 8:24 AM EDT   0 recs

I really don't think that Holliday makes sense...

Given the fact that the outfield is not the problem with this offense. Here are the VORPS for our position players this season:

The Mang 48.1
Ludwick 25.6
Ankiel 20.2
Skip 17.4
Glaus 13.4
Molina 9.5
Miles 4.6
Duncan 1.9
Kennedy 1.7
Barton 0.9
Izturis -0.7
Ryan -2.7

Holliday is sitting at 40.3 right now, if he could somehow keep that up over the 2nd half he would be an upgrade of 20 VORP or so over Skip, or 2 wins. Meanwhile, Brian Roberts is sitting at 29.6, which is a 3-win upgrade over the dreck we currently have at 2B. Or, you have Grudz at 15.3 VORP, who would be almost as big an upgrade as Holliday over what we have at the position and would come much, much cheaper.

by mikedallas45 on Jul 11, 2008 9:23 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

C Guzman VORP 21.5

better than Grudz, not quite as good as Roberts.

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Jul 11, 2008 9:30 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Guzman

Is on the trading block for sure, but I think Roberts is off it for now as Baltimore battles for a .500 season. I could be wrong though. Both are not going to be cheap as they’re basically the only trading chips on very bad teams. Living in DC, the nats are such a disappointment. Not only do they suck, but everyone’s hurt. What’s the point of paying $8 for a 16 oz beer if i can’t yell ZIMMAAAA

by spencegrif on Jul 11, 2008 10:04 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I saw the Cards game

in DC earlier this year (The one we lost in the 10th after a near miraculous comeback). What sucked was, not only Pujols was on the shelf, but so was Zimmerman. Atleast it was Ryan Zimmerman bobblehead day…

by Pujols Is A God on Jul 11, 2008 10:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

that was

an amazing game. I was at the first half of the double header. Nothing like skipping work to see the cardinals. Pujols hit his pinch home run and glaus went yard.

by spencegrif on Jul 11, 2008 10:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ha

Well… I saw Worell and Mather go deep. =)

by Pujols Is A God on Jul 11, 2008 10:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

It was a great game, except it was indicative of our season—bullpen can’t hold a lead.

Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2

by gocards62 on Jul 11, 2008 10:19 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I skipped work to see that one too

Figured hardly anyone who planned to go the night before would show up. It was great, especially since you could sit wherever you wanted. Of course, that was also the game when the Colonel’s elbow started barking…

I think you’re right about Guzman—the Nats would probably ask a lot for the only decent and healthy player on an otherwise lousy club this year…

by DCRedbird on Jul 11, 2008 1:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I just read

on mlbtraderumors that cards scouts were watching the nats recently.

by spencegrif on Jul 11, 2008 2:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

like Mike's analysis

Cost benefit analysis: (what we got) v. (what we desire to replace it with) measured against the cost to get what we desire. If it were a video game, we’d play Holliday @ SS and rake!

Can’t be done until the off season but Skip has played most of his BB life as a middle infielder. His bat is middling as a corner OF but very useful as a middle IF. Convert Skip to 2B over the winter / spring. Huge offensive upgrade per position that costs us bumkus.

by jjray on Jul 11, 2008 9:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

right

he has a good bat for a middle infielder and has his whole life - so there’s a reason he’s not a middle infielder - i.e. he can’t hack it defensively at the second base position. Glaus was a SS in college and Chipper Jones was a SS in the minor leagues, but I sure wouldn’t want to see them play there now, and they would be GREAT bats for middle infielders. Hell, Pujols was a SS at one point in his career!!! In high school, the best players tend to play the most demanding positions—that doesn’t mean they can play those same positions as well as a big league player, regardless of their offensive talent…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 11, 2008 10:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Skip

chipper was a SS in the ML as well. Do you think Miles is a good defensive SS or even 2B? Tell me Skip can’t duplicate Miles’ defensive range at 2B? We know Skip has a cannon for an arm. Skip has athleticism that Pujols and others you name lack. The guy is one of the best athletes on the team. I think they made a mistake moving Skip to the OF in the minors.

by jjray on Jul 11, 2008 11:34 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

for a MI,

the footwork is very important. Like being a good dancer, not everyone can do it, no matter how athletic. That said, I’d like to think Skip did it long enough that he can’t be too bad. I’d like to see it, or hear from a scout or MiL coach why it didn’t work.

That’s really just me being curious, though, because like 4stick said above (and is said every time this is brought up) there’s got to be a reason he’s not playing there already. Surely they’re not so dense as to move a guy because they needed a CF and never think to move him back, right?

by hit and run on Jul 11, 2008 11:47 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pujols

Is probably one of the most athletic players on the Cardinal team—he has excellent hands and feet, moves nimbly, and has pretty good speed for a guy his size. He stole 16 bases a few years back. Saying he’s not a good athlete because he’s a big guy is not looking at the overall picture. There are plenty of NFL offensive lineman that are great athletes and they’re massive.

Some guys just simply aren’t cut out for those positions. Skip’s feet are good in the outfield because he can set himself up for making throws and he doesn’t have to move laterally as much as front and back to get into position. He doesn’t move laterally well at all, and that is a necessity when playing second base or SS. I don’t think Miles is a great defensive player, but he has a lot better hands than Skip and moves laterally well, although not great.

Comparing Skip to the worst defensive MI that the Cardinals have kinda proves my point anyway does it not?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 11, 2008 12:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

there's also a reaction time element there

maybe Skip has a slower reaction time, preventing him from being a good infielder?

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 11, 2008 1:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

totally agree

and it wasn’t “the minors”, it was at frigging loyola-marymount community college. After his year at LMU, he went to UC Santa barbara, where he was blocked at second base by the guy who was the MVP of the summer league that Kyle Russell couldn’t hit in, and he didn’t have any real competition for CF.

Then again, from watching the guy for 3 hours every day for the better part of 7 years, I also believe that AP could handle 2B. So what do i know…

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 12, 2008 3:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Just curious

and lazy as well I guess, but is VORP park adjusted?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jul 11, 2008 11:28 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I still don't know what VORP is

I’ll probably figure it out on the 3rd try

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 11, 2008 1:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

"vorp" is what chekhov should have said in star trek instead of "warp"

since there’s no w in russian. but i must admit, “nuclear wessels” is still funny.
oh, a serious answer? i still don’t know what vorp is exactly either… other than the obvious words that it stands for. no idea how it’s calculated.

by mattybobo on Jul 11, 2008 2:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

VORP

Value Over Replacement Player

and I also don t know how its calculated

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles

Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Jul 11, 2008 3:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes

So says Keith Woolner:

VORP is park-adjusted using 3-year park factors

by lightbulb on Jul 11, 2008 1:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Honestly, I have a bit of an issue

with any analysis that considers adding Mark Grudzienanek and Matt Holliday as being pretty much the same thing.

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 12:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

well...

it’s position adjusted, Grudz is measureably better than a lot of second baseman—look around, there aren’t too many good ones out there this year. You can find a guy to replace Holliday much more easily than you can find to replace a second baseman playing offensively and defensively as well as Grudz is right now.

Alas, another signing that would have made a whole lot of sense a few years back, and even more sense now.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 11, 2008 12:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

sorry

you can talk about position adjustment and stuff all you want, but adding Grudz to this lineup is no where near as impactful as adding Holliday. He hits in all situations well and for power, hes a lineup changer. Where exactly does Grudz fit into the lineup? Sure, I completely understand that he’s better offensively that Ryan, Miles, Izturis, and Kennedy, but is that really the big issue here? Is it that 7th/9th spot in the order thats killing this team?

Holliday is a middle of the order stick that makes a difference. Grudz is a 6-hole hitter who helps.

With all of this stated, I would like to put on the record that I do not condone the acquisition of Matt Holliday simply because I feel all leverage is in Colorado’s hands and they’re willing to hold whoever they’re dealing with over the coals.

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 12:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, yes, the holes

in the 7th/9th spots are important parts of what’s killing the team.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 11, 2008 1:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yep

we need to do something about that first and foremost imo. That and if we put Rasmus in left and he does well, instant cure.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 11, 2008 1:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Really?

because unless Rasmus can play 2nd, you’ve still got 2 of Izturis, Miles, Ryan, and Kennedy to put in the lineup somewhere.

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

unfortunately

Ryan would have to get sent down again in that scenario

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 11, 2008 1:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

unless one of those guys is involved in the trade

to get the new SS or 2B of course

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 11, 2008 1:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Dude, you've got me confused

I thought you simply wanted to add Rasmus to the bottom of the order. Anyway, I’m not sure Rasmus is an “instant cure” since it might take until September before got out of his slump.

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 1:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I was saying that first and foremost

we need to address the 7th and 9th spots in the order, as I was replying to a post that mentioned that. if you also put Rasmus in left and he does better than Skip, we have a pretty deadly lineup. that’s all.

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 11, 2008 2:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I get it now

I was just got turned around a little in there.

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Right, but..

If you sitck someone like Holliday in the 4 spot, then your 4 becomes your 5, your 5 your 6, and so on, and the weak spot in 7 or 9 is upgraded that way.

Getting a straight upgrade (i.e. just getting a better #7 hitter) improves you in one place. A middle of the lineup guy improves you all over.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Jul 11, 2008 1:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

no

It would actually move one the 7th or 9th hitter to the top of the order to lead off (YEEESH!!!) because he’s replacing Skip. Holliday probably goes in the 4 hole and moves Glaus to the 5, Ank to the 6, Yadi to the 7, the pitcher, and then Izturis or Kennedy or Miles, whichever one isn’t leading off…I don’t see how this lineup makes the team that much better.

If you get Roberts, this happens:

Roberts
Ludwick
Pujols
Glaus
Ankiel
Molina
Izturis
Pitcher
Schumaker

That top loads the lineup and puts Schu in the second leadoff hole, I think this lineup works out much better as it gets more high OBP hitters ahead of Pujols.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 11, 2008 2:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

roberts

i’d bat roberts 2nd, leave schu at leadoff, slide Luddy into the 4 hole (everyone else moves down accordingly), and put izturis in the 9th spot.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jul 11, 2008 3:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well...

I was responding to the comment that the 7th and 9th spots were weak. My scenario improves those spots. You’re talking about the leadoff spot, which was not discussed above. I agree with you that it is an issue overall, but it wasn’t what the “7th and 9th” comment was about.

And I also said “someone like Holliday”, not “Holliday.” Splitting hairs, of course, but the positional problem you suggest occurs only if we get an OF.

To resolve the positional issue, an ideal upgrade would be someone like Tejada or Uggla. They then become a cleanup hitter, and displace a weak offenseive link without disrupting the leadoff spot. Caveat – I have no idea how Uggla is defensively, and I put a lot more stock into that than most around here, it seems.

Further caveat - Im' nto making any suggestion that its easy to just  go out and get a slugging middle infielder, just that it would be pretty much the ideal "get" for this team.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Jul 11, 2008 4:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

to put it simply

holliday OPS+ – Skippy OPS+
152-113 = 39

Grudz OPS+ – Kennedy OPS+
109-80 = 29

not the same, but darned close, and Holliday has been helped by his field a lot more than Grudz has. it’s when you consider the cost that grudz becomes more valuable. 2 weeks ago when Kennedy’s OPS+ was low-60’s, it was a no-brainer. now that he’s been hitting a bit, it’s a slightly tougher decision- but the fact that Ryan hasn’t hit, and you could platoon grudz and Kennedy, should make all the difference.

"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN

by SleepyCA on Jul 12, 2008 4:01 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I never said they are the same thing

I said that, the gap between Holliday and Skip this year is only a little bigger than the gap between Grudz and Miles. Holliday is a much better player than Skip, I don’t dispute that. However, Grudz is also much better than Miles/Kennedy. And yes, the 7th/9th spot is killing this team. Once you get past #6 in the order you can pretty much forget about scoring runs, and that’s a problem.

by mikedallas45 on Jul 11, 2008 1:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

except you are compairng

Skips at bats against righties with Holliday against all pitchers. If Skip played everyday, he wouldn’t be anywhere close to Holliday.

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 1:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

To me it's all about cost benefit

According to Mikedallas45 Holliday’s VORP is 40.3 and Skip’s is 17.1 meaning a difference of 23.2.

I don’t have access to baseball prospectus so I don’t know Grudz’ is this year but the last 2 have been right at 18. If you assume an 18 and then compare it to Izturis’s -0.7 you get a gap of 18.7. Nearly the same as Holliday/Skip difference.

Now no one can argue that Grud is anywhere near the player that Holliday is, but I’m pretty sure Grud could be obtained for a decent prospect and a throw in. Heck, maybe Reyes would be enough alone??? Holliday would require gutting the farm.

I’d rather get my ~10 extra runs (20/half a season) giving up Reyes than Rasmus, Garcia and a few others.

by birdo rojo on Jul 11, 2008 2:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Grudz and Izturis don't even play the same position

so i’m not sure what the point is. If you take out izturis, then you play either Miles or Ryan there and while Ryan is much better defensively than Miles, he’s not near the hitter. And Ryan’s defense, while some say is better than Iz2’s is not really helped by his hitting to be that much of an improvement.

Once again (and I should probalby consider putting this in my sig line), I do not think the team should go out and trade for Holliday, the cost is more than likely way too high. I simply have a problem when people compare Holliday and Grudz and Skip and think they’re all the same player.

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 2:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

OK - I'll try to restate in a different way

My only point is that the difference between Holliday and Skip is roughly the same as Grud and one of our other infielders. And getting Grud or some other decent MI is what we should do since the cost shouldn’t be too high.

by birdo rojo on Jul 11, 2008 2:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If you want to focus on MI, that's fine, never said acquiring Holliday was a great idea

but I think you’re better off looking at someone like Brian Roberts (as was pointed out below) than Grudz. Although Roberts has a no-trade clause, but I think he was willing to waive it before the season started so why not now?

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 3:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If you want to play that game

If you want to look at each guys splits then you have to take into account what Holliday does away from Coor’s Field

by ebo on Jul 11, 2008 2:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

whats your point?

if you make Skip hit against lefties, it doesn’t matter if he’s hitting on the moon, he isn’t going to out hit Holliday.

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 2:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I truly feel like a windsock on this...

One moment I want to go for it this year, and whatever we have to give up (within reason) is fine…the next minute, I want to hoard our prospects and retrench for 2009 and beyond.

I do think there is a middle ground here…we have a lot of decent prospects, some are better than others,and everybody isn’t going to play in St. Louis. The Post has been talking about this a lot this week…determine 4-5 guys you won’t trade outside of a real blockbuster…everybody else is on the table…be bold but don’t be desperate…the advantage we have over the Brewers and Cubs is that we don’t feel like we HAVE to win this year…I don’t think you ever pass up a chance to go to the playoffs if you have a shot, but this year of contention is an unexpected bonus…if there is someone out there you can get who gives you a chance to compete, then go get them, and worry about where they will fit later…frankly, that’s why the Bonds suggestions don’t seem as ridiculous to me as they did 4 months ago.

by tbell61 on Jul 11, 2008 8:52 AM EDT   0 recs

agreed

Don’t bet the farm (literally in this case), but don’t be a stingy jerk or a nervous nelly either.

by spencegrif on Jul 11, 2008 10:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

same here

I was adamantly opposed to the Bonds suggests earlier in the season. Now, it seems like a great idea, especially since he’s cheap. We got Lohse for a good deal, why not continue looking for good deals in the bargain bin?

strikeouts from left-center

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 11, 2008 1:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Garcia

Az, I’m not disagreeing with your assessment about Garcia’s readiness, or lack thereof, but I think the analysis has to change a little given that he’s being called up as a reliever. Thompson looks like the #5 starter for now, as imho he should be. And in the pen Garcia is probably as good or better as any other lefthanded option the team has now. He’ll throw a few innings, probably in low leverage situations, and most likely get sent back down in a few weeks when Wainwright or Randy Flores is reactivated. I hear your point about guys on this team being set up to fail, but I’m not sure I see it in this case.

by DCGreg on Jul 11, 2008 8:56 AM EDT   0 recs

If he's called up as a reliever I can't say I understand that either

My understanding, which could be wrong, was that he was going to start. As far as facing lefties as a reliever, there’s some debate as to his effectiveness against them. Setting that aside, if they are going to have Thompson start (whose in the same class as Reyes and Parisi at this point), than why call up Garcia? Is he demonstably better than Worrell or Motte. I’d say no. McClellan has the repertoire to retire lefties so the need for an actual left handed LOOGY seems superfluous to me. Garcia being called up for 2-3 innings a week seems particularly pointless when he needs to work on his secondary pitches and pitch sequencing (which is also far from ready for the majors).

by azruavatar on Jul 11, 2008 9:34 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed

If they called him up as a reliever it makes far LESS sense than if he was called up as a starter. His splits don’t show him to be dominating left handed hitters at any point in the minor leagues, and he’s a future starter, so he needs to be starting at AAA rather than relieving in the big leagues. You don’t work on things such as adding a third effective pitch or developing stamina at the big league level—those are the things that you work on in the minors.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 11, 2008 9:40 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Garcia's workload

First off, Dunc said he won’t start – it’s in today’s PD if I’m not mistaken.

As for Garcia working on his other pitches, at some point this season, he’ll probably have to go to the bullpen because he’ll have thrown too many innings. He threw 137 innings in 06 and 103 last year and is at 103 so far this year. I had envisioned those bullpen innings coming in St. Louis in August and September—it’s just happening a little earlier.

Motte and Worrell seem to have thrown pitched pretty well in the last couple of weeks, so perhaps they were viable options. But Garcia is a lefty, and I do think that counts for something notwithstanding this year’s splits, and he is probably better suited to long relief than either of the other two.

by DCGreg on Jul 11, 2008 10:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

How can you put Thompson's name in the same sentence with Parisi and Reyes?

I have a million times the confidence in Thompson as I do Reyes or Parisi. Parisi has gotten absolutely obliterated the last 3 or 4 times he’s pitched and Reyes is such a freaking enigma he has made himself practically useless.

Put either one of those two pitchers in the game the other night where Thomspson came in and tell me at least one of ‘em (Parisi) and maybe both don’t get shelled by the end of the 2nd inning. Reyes has shown in the past that you cannot rely on him in situations he doesn’t have full control (i.e., going through his entire routine before a start not to mention he really seems to feel bad for himself) and Parisi has just been bad on the same level as Kelvin Jiminez.

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 12:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You're right

because Thompson has never gotten shelled before. Except he has. Referencing the most recent Thompson appearance and then claiming that he’s definitely better than Parisi and Thompson ignores their statistical records and the scouting report. Thompson is a fringe MLB pitcher with a single pitch—he’s Carlos Silva light. That’s how I list them in the same sentence.

by azruavatar on Jul 11, 2008 1:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

and Mike Parisi hasn't shown himself to be a major league pitcher

and Anthony Reyes has shown and abiltiy to not be able to get out of his own way.

I never said Thompson has never been shelled before (wait, let me re-read my post…...nope, never said it), but so has Adam Wainwright and CC Sabathia. Pitchers get shelled from time to time. It happens. But what I do know is that when called upon Thompson gives the most consistant effort of those 2. And frankly, I’m leaving Mike Parisi out of this conversation, it you want to convince yourself he’s a legitimate option right now, go ahead but I don’t have time for that nonsense.

Thompson is willing to do the dirty work, something that Reyes seems to have an alergic reaction to. If it’s not his way, he pouts. And then he turns into Eddie Haskell and cries to the media. Thompson is the most flexible guy they’ve got. He’ll start, he’ll go long relief, he’ll do whatever they ask of him and will give the team the best effort and chance to win in whatever situation he’s put in. Reyes is a roulette wheel. And Parisi is a roulette pistol with all cylinders loaded.

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 1:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Where, sir did you ever get this idea that Anthony Reyes pouts?

He has spoken one time, one time to the media, and ends up on the DL. I actually heard Chris Maloney interviewed, and he said he works hard, gives him all he’s got every time he steps on the field, and is a good teammate. In the 4 years he’s been on the Memphis express, the one and only time I saw anything in the paper was right after the last time he was called up. When it was revealed that Duncan doesn’t speak to him….Please, link me to something else if you find it…..he didn’t say anything about being in the pen either. Again, link me to something if you have it…..I’ve been one of his biggest fans BECAUSE he never says anything about anything…..

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 11, 2008 1:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I am in agreement with you

on the baseball parts, but I can’t go along with bashing Reyes for “pouting.” AR has actually been MOST impressive for his professionalism in handling the way he’s been mishandled. Where do you get the “pouting” and “cries to the media” accusations from?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 11, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

strange

all i’ve heard from reyes’ mouth is that he’s just trying to do what the team wants. IF i were in his shoes, i’d be much more openly critical of a team that has absolutely abandoned me.

by spencegrif on Jul 11, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Since all three responses have the same quesiton, I'll address it here

Call it pouting or crying or whatever, how come at least once a year I hear about how Anthony doens’t understand why he’s not with the Cardinals or how he doesn’t understand why Duncan doesn’t like him or whatever. I called him Eddie Haskell for a reason. And it has been more than 1 time. He usually does it with the reporters in the minors. Sure, he’s asked a question and he answers them, but he’s yet to take any responsibilty and has a good way of making his coaches look like baffoons while coming out looking like a sympathetic figure.

I’m sure he’s not the only player who’s ever felt mis-used or treated unfairly, but I don’t feel like hearing about him either.

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 1:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What other time? I think you are confusing what others say in the

media with what Mr. Reyes says. Please, find me the quotes you are talking about. I don’t believe they are out there….I really think you are off base here.

If you’re mad that Reyes is still in the organization-look to management. He sure can’t trade himself.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 11, 2008 1:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Honestly, I don't have time to search for newspaper articles

And I’m not mad that he’s still in the organization, you are the one who’s mad about it. However, I do understand that he’s not only pitched, but acted his way into a situation where the team can’t move him or rely on him. That’s an unfortunate situation, and maybe one that becomes better when he goes to another team. But they can’t simply trade him because it’s right for Anthony. Maybe, what’s right for the team is simply waiting for him to walk as a free agent since he’s at least shown to be a stable aspect of the Memphis rotation and any return they get for him in trade is a useless chip that does nothing but clutter someones roster.

Besides, you said he’s only spoken to the media one time, well he spoke twice the last time he was in St. Louis. Once about the not talking to Duncan thing and how he didn’t understand why Dave hated him so much. The second time was after the move to the DL and he said he didn’t understand why he was DL’d and that he’d been pitching with it for a while and he just brought it up in converstation thinking nothing would be made of it (once again, such a victim). So there’s two instances. Just becasue it’s not a feature article doesn’t mean he’s not speaking with the media. This stuff shows up in notes and things at the bottom of columns and updates which is extremely difficult to find after a few days.

by Tackle Box on Jul 11, 2008 1:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh, the confusion that happened when he was put on the DL....

Um, that sort of happened because they announced it to the media BEFORE they told him he was on the DL…...he did speak the “company line” once he knew what it was…..

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 11, 2008 1:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs