Chasing Windmills
A quick promotional before the post, the St. Louis National Adult Baseball Association is having their All Star Charity game on Sunday, July 20th. Numerous organizations, including the Cardinals, have made contributions toward the event that will benefit St. Louis Children's Hospital. If you're looking for a relaxing night out with the family and you want to support a good cause at the same time, you should consider attending the game.
After the Mark Mulder implosion on Wednesday, I debated writing a scathing post about the handling of that situation. Thankfully, I didn't have to post yesterday but the whole situation reeks of inept decisions by management for reasons that aren't, first and foremost, about winning games. Mulder consistently struggled in the minors failing to put together two consecutive successful starts. Regardless of that, he was granted the opportunity to start against a superb offensive team in a hitter's ballpark. That simply doesn't make sense. To add insult to injury, Mulder complains of an injury within 10 days of being activated from the DL when the medical teal pronounced him "healthy". I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth and a great deal of disappointment in the judgment of the Cardinal's decision makers. Mulder's rehab has been naught but a quixotic escapade since being resigned for 13M dollars.
Fresh on the heels of that farce comes the decision to call up Jaime Garcia. As Larry noted yesterday, there are some valid reasons to think that Garcia isn't ready for the bigs. Having watched the last 3 Garcia starts on video, I can't help but agree with those statistical conclusions. The command doesn't appear to be there. The curveball that he's been renowned for gets hung far too often. The lack of an effective third pitch is worrisome as well. In much the same way that Mitchell Boggs wasn't ready, Jaime Garcia isn't either. Since June 3rd and 8th, Garcia hasn't managed to string together quality starts. Why the sudden belief that he's going to be able to retire major leaguers on a regular basis?
That said, the team may feel like they're backed into a corner. With Wainwright still weeks away there's really only two players that you could consider developmentally ready and the club seems to have abandoned hope for both of them. Obviously, Anthony Reyes is not a part of this team's future. I'm not going to argue that he's a good pitcher or that he's even an MLB quality pitcher but there's really nothing left to learn in the minors with him. I think the same can be said for Mike Parisi who has been exceptional in his last two starts. I'm not a Parisi backer in the long term b/c I think he's a fringe MLB starter but that's exactly what the team is looking for right now. Instead of calling up Reyes or Parisi, or Mitchell Boggs who was already on the 40-man roster and had already seen big league action, they're calling up another rookie who just isn't ready yet. If they really detest all three of those options, why not go snag a guy like Jack Cassel from the Astros for a minor league reliever or some such. Stop setting up players to fail. It's not good for them and it's not good for the team.
While numerous people have advocated acquiring another arm (and if they do, I vote for Burnett), I'm firmly in the camp that the team needs another bat. Despite having the 3rd best OPS in the National League the Cardinals have scored just the 7th most runs -- middle of the pack -- and they've gotten the 3rd most at bats. I'd love to throw down some research right here about consistent hitters but I don't have any, which makes my following claim specious in it's subjectivity. It seems like the Cardinals consist of one great bat (Pujols), 3 streaky sluggers (Glaus, Ankiel, Ludwick), a bunch of complimentary and useful offensive players, and then some absolute offensive zeros (Izturis, Ryan, Kennedy). It turns into a feast or famine situation when the sluggers stop slugging.
From June 11th, when Ryan Ludwick hit his 15th HR, till July 5th Ludwick went 21 games without a HR posting a .565 OPS in 72 ABs. He'd been a tremendous offensive force for the Cardinals previously but he simply disappeared into a funk. From April 30th to June 6th, Rick Ankiel watched his OPS plummet nearly 100 pts. He hit just 5 HRs in 112 ABs compared to July when he's hit 4 HRs in 31 ABs. Troy Glaus ended May after 189 ABs with a slugging percentage of .397 and a total of 3 HRs. In the following 127 ABs, he's hit 10 HRs and raised his slugging 50 pts. It's not that these players are without offensive value or even defensive value. I just question the stability of an offensive whose core is prone to what seems like extended slumps.
There's a variety of ways to improve the club offensively. When Colby Rasmus returns from his strained groin, I'd think that he's made enough noise in Memphis (June stats - .337/.442/.535 w/ good peripherals) to warrant a look in left field. It's not that Schumaker hasn't been surprisingly good but the team needs a boost offensively and Rasmus has that kind of potential. The popular target as of late seems to be Matt Holliday who has been discussed and dissected in several previous threads. I'm not a fan of that option (given what I perceive to be the asking price and Holliday's on the road numbers) but I can understand the rationale behind it. Barry Bonds remains available (presumably for very little) and could possibly become the Cardinals second best offensive player upon arrival. (The defensive concerns are overblown, imo, with Ankiel in center and Skip available on the bench. If we survived Chris in LF, we can survive Barry.) Of course, if all my wishes were being granted, the Cardinals could acquire Brian Roberts whose having a tremendous offensive year.
I don't watch those players enough to make a claim that they are or aren't streaky but an argument can be made that they all represent an upgrade offensively. The Cardinals need a little push to get from middling offensive team to good offensive team. The pitching can get that push from a healthy Wellemeyer and Wainwright. I don't see the possibility of that boost for the offense outside of, perhaps, Rasmus. If the Cardinals do acquire another pitcher, I don't think anyone out there is enough to shore up the rotation w/o contributions from Wainwright and Wellemeyer. If we get contributions from Wainwright and Wellemeyer, I'm not sure any pitcher out there is the right combination of a significant upgrade and not too costly in prospects. I'm not sure that I want the Cardinals to acquire a player via trade but I am sure that I'd rather see another bat than an arm. The chasm, be it big or small, between TLR's perception and the front office's perception of the needs and possibilities of fulling those short term needs leaves me with little sense of what direction is really going to be taken prior to the deadline. The Cardinals will have to sally forth with their current roster and perhaps someone will come to help battle the giants.
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Winning now
I feel that we should trade anyone short of Rasmus and Todd to upgrade this team now. Two years of Holliday would be very nice, and outfield of Holliday, Rasmus and Ankiel would be something to see. We will only get so many years of Pujols in his prime, and I think we should do everything to make the most of these years. That means win now (we are in striking distance) and spend the money when it frees up (Mulder, Izzy, Encarnician, Kennedy, Looper).
by CJW on
Jul 11, 2008 8:24 AM EDT
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I really don't think that Holliday makes sense...
Given the fact that the outfield is not the problem with this offense. Here are the VORPS for our position players this season:
The Mang 48.1
Ludwick 25.6
Ankiel 20.2
Skip 17.4
Glaus 13.4
Molina 9.5
Miles 4.6
Duncan 1.9
Kennedy 1.7
Barton 0.9
Izturis -0.7
Ryan -2.7
Holliday is sitting at 40.3 right now, if he could somehow keep that up over the 2nd half he would be an upgrade of 20 VORP or so over Skip, or 2 wins. Meanwhile, Brian Roberts is sitting at 29.6, which is a 3-win upgrade over the dreck we currently have at 2B. Or, you have Grudz at 15.3 VORP, who would be almost as big an upgrade as Holliday over what we have at the position and would come much, much cheaper.
by mikedallas45 on
Jul 11, 2008 9:23 AM EDT
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C Guzman VORP 21.5
better than Grudz, not quite as good as Roberts.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2
by gocards62 on
Jul 11, 2008 9:30 AM EDT
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Guzman
Is on the trading block for sure, but I think Roberts is off it for now as Baltimore battles for a .500 season. I could be wrong though. Both are not going to be cheap as they’re basically the only trading chips on very bad teams. Living in DC, the nats are such a disappointment. Not only do they suck, but everyone’s hurt. What’s the point of paying $8 for a 16 oz beer if i can’t yell ZIMMAAAA
by spencegrif on
Jul 11, 2008 10:04 AM EDT
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I saw the Cards game
in DC earlier this year (The one we lost in the 10th after a near miraculous comeback). What sucked was, not only Pujols was on the shelf, but so was Zimmerman. Atleast it was Ryan Zimmerman bobblehead day…
by Pujols Is A God on
Jul 11, 2008 10:06 AM EDT
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that was
an amazing game. I was at the first half of the double header. Nothing like skipping work to see the cardinals. Pujols hit his pinch home run and glaus went yard.
by spencegrif on
Jul 11, 2008 10:12 AM EDT
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Ha
Well… I saw Worell and Mather go deep. =)
by Pujols Is A God on
Jul 11, 2008 10:17 AM EDT
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I skipped work to see that one too
Figured hardly anyone who planned to go the night before would show up. It was great, especially since you could sit wherever you wanted. Of course, that was also the game when the Colonel’s elbow started barking…
I think you’re right about Guzman—the Nats would probably ask a lot for the only decent and healthy player on an otherwise lousy club this year…
by DCRedbird on
Jul 11, 2008 1:59 PM EDT
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I just read
on mlbtraderumors that cards scouts were watching the nats recently.
by spencegrif on
Jul 11, 2008 2:36 PM EDT
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like Mike's analysis
Cost benefit analysis: (what we got) v. (what we desire to replace it with) measured against the cost to get what we desire. If it were a video game, we’d play Holliday @ SS and rake!
Can’t be done until the off season but Skip has played most of his BB life as a middle infielder. His bat is middling as a corner OF but very useful as a middle IF. Convert Skip to 2B over the winter / spring. Huge offensive upgrade per position that costs us bumkus.
by jjray on
Jul 11, 2008 9:56 AM EDT
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right
he has a good bat for a middle infielder and has his whole life - so there’s a reason he’s not a middle infielder - i.e. he can’t hack it defensively at the second base position. Glaus was a SS in college and Chipper Jones was a SS in the minor leagues, but I sure wouldn’t want to see them play there now, and they would be GREAT bats for middle infielders. Hell, Pujols was a SS at one point in his career!!! In high school, the best players tend to play the most demanding positions—that doesn’t mean they can play those same positions as well as a big league player, regardless of their offensive talent…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 10:17 AM EDT
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Skip
chipper was a SS in the ML as well. Do you think Miles is a good defensive SS or even 2B? Tell me Skip can’t duplicate Miles’ defensive range at 2B? We know Skip has a cannon for an arm. Skip has athleticism that Pujols and others you name lack. The guy is one of the best athletes on the team. I think they made a mistake moving Skip to the OF in the minors.
by jjray on
Jul 11, 2008 11:34 AM EDT
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for a MI,
the footwork is very important. Like being a good dancer, not everyone can do it, no matter how athletic. That said, I’d like to think Skip did it long enough that he can’t be too bad. I’d like to see it, or hear from a scout or MiL coach why it didn’t work.
That’s really just me being curious, though, because like 4stick said above (and is said every time this is brought up) there’s got to be a reason he’s not playing there already. Surely they’re not so dense as to move a guy because they needed a CF and never think to move him back, right?
by hit and run on
Jul 11, 2008 11:47 AM EDT
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Pujols
Is probably one of the most athletic players on the Cardinal team—he has excellent hands and feet, moves nimbly, and has pretty good speed for a guy his size. He stole 16 bases a few years back. Saying he’s not a good athlete because he’s a big guy is not looking at the overall picture. There are plenty of NFL offensive lineman that are great athletes and they’re massive.
Some guys just simply aren’t cut out for those positions. Skip’s feet are good in the outfield because he can set himself up for making throws and he doesn’t have to move laterally as much as front and back to get into position. He doesn’t move laterally well at all, and that is a necessity when playing second base or SS. I don’t think Miles is a great defensive player, but he has a lot better hands than Skip and moves laterally well, although not great.
Comparing Skip to the worst defensive MI that the Cardinals have kinda proves my point anyway does it not?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 12:06 PM EDT
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there's also a reaction time element there
maybe Skip has a slower reaction time, preventing him from being a good infielder?
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 11, 2008 1:12 PM EDT
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totally agree
and it wasn’t “the minors”, it was at frigging loyola-marymount community college. After his year at LMU, he went to UC Santa barbara, where he was blocked at second base by the guy who was the MVP of the summer league that Kyle Russell couldn’t hit in, and he didn’t have any real competition for CF.
Then again, from watching the guy for 3 hours every day for the better part of 7 years, I also believe that AP could handle 2B. So what do i know…
"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN
by SleepyCA on
Jul 12, 2008 3:48 AM EDT
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Just curious
and lazy as well I guess, but is VORP park adjusted?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Jul 11, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
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I still don't know what VORP is
I’ll probably figure it out on the 3rd try
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 11, 2008 1:12 PM EDT
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"vorp" is what chekhov should have said in star trek instead of "warp"
since there’s no w in russian. but i must admit, “nuclear wessels” is still funny.
oh, a serious answer? i still don’t know what vorp is exactly either… other than the obvious words that it stands for. no idea how it’s calculated.
by mattybobo on
Jul 11, 2008 2:56 PM EDT
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VORP
Value Over Replacement Player
and I also don t know how its calculated
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on
Jul 11, 2008 3:43 PM EDT
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Yes
So says Keith Woolner:
VORP is park-adjusted using 3-year park factors
by lightbulb on
Jul 11, 2008 1:19 PM EDT
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Honestly, I have a bit of an issue
with any analysis that considers adding Mark Grudzienanek and Matt Holliday as being pretty much the same thing.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 12:01 PM EDT
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well...
it’s position adjusted, Grudz is measureably better than a lot of second baseman—look around, there aren’t too many good ones out there this year. You can find a guy to replace Holliday much more easily than you can find to replace a second baseman playing offensively and defensively as well as Grudz is right now.
Alas, another signing that would have made a whole lot of sense a few years back, and even more sense now.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 12:09 PM EDT
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sorry
you can talk about position adjustment and stuff all you want, but adding Grudz to this lineup is no where near as impactful as adding Holliday. He hits in all situations well and for power, hes a lineup changer. Where exactly does Grudz fit into the lineup? Sure, I completely understand that he’s better offensively that Ryan, Miles, Izturis, and Kennedy, but is that really the big issue here? Is it that 7th/9th spot in the order thats killing this team?
Holliday is a middle of the order stick that makes a difference. Grudz is a 6-hole hitter who helps.
With all of this stated, I would like to put on the record that I do not condone the acquisition of Matt Holliday simply because I feel all leverage is in Colorado’s hands and they’re willing to hold whoever they’re dealing with over the coals.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 12:54 PM EDT
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Well, yes, the holes
in the 7th/9th spots are important parts of what’s killing the team.
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Jul 11, 2008 1:00 PM EDT
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yep
we need to do something about that first and foremost imo. That and if we put Rasmus in left and he does well, instant cure.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 11, 2008 1:14 PM EDT
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Really?
because unless Rasmus can play 2nd, you’ve still got 2 of Izturis, Miles, Ryan, and Kennedy to put in the lineup somewhere.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 1:16 PM EDT
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unfortunately
Ryan would have to get sent down again in that scenario
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 11, 2008 1:28 PM EDT
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unless one of those guys is involved in the trade
to get the new SS or 2B of course
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 11, 2008 1:28 PM EDT
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Dude, you've got me confused
I thought you simply wanted to add Rasmus to the bottom of the order. Anyway, I’m not sure Rasmus is an “instant cure” since it might take until September before got out of his slump.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 1:46 PM EDT
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I was saying that first and foremost
we need to address the 7th and 9th spots in the order, as I was replying to a post that mentioned that. if you also put Rasmus in left and he does better than Skip, we have a pretty deadly lineup. that’s all.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 11, 2008 2:42 PM EDT
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I get it now
I was just got turned around a little in there.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 2:46 PM EDT
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Right, but..
If you sitck someone like Holliday in the 4 spot, then your 4 becomes your 5, your 5 your 6, and so on, and the weak spot in 7 or 9 is upgraded that way.
Getting a straight upgrade (i.e. just getting a better #7 hitter) improves you in one place. A middle of the lineup guy improves you all over.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on
Jul 11, 2008 1:19 PM EDT
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no
It would actually move one the 7th or 9th hitter to the top of the order to lead off (YEEESH!!!) because he’s replacing Skip. Holliday probably goes in the 4 hole and moves Glaus to the 5, Ank to the 6, Yadi to the 7, the pitcher, and then Izturis or Kennedy or Miles, whichever one isn’t leading off…I don’t see how this lineup makes the team that much better.
If you get Roberts, this happens:
Roberts
Ludwick
Pujols
Glaus
Ankiel
Molina
Izturis
Pitcher
Schumaker
That top loads the lineup and puts Schu in the second leadoff hole, I think this lineup works out much better as it gets more high OBP hitters ahead of Pujols.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 2:47 PM EDT
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Well...
I was responding to the comment that the 7th and 9th spots were weak. My scenario improves those spots. You’re talking about the leadoff spot, which was not discussed above. I agree with you that it is an issue overall, but it wasn’t what the “7th and 9th” comment was about.
And I also said “someone like Holliday”, not “Holliday.” Splitting hairs, of course, but the positional problem you suggest occurs only if we get an OF.
To resolve the positional issue, an ideal upgrade would be someone like Tejada or Uggla. They then become a cleanup hitter, and displace a weak offenseive link without disrupting the leadoff spot. Caveat – I have no idea how Uggla is defensively, and I put a lot more stock into that than most around here, it seems.
Further caveat - Im' nto making any suggestion that its easy to just go out and get a slugging middle infielder, just that it would be pretty much the ideal "get" for this team.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on
Jul 11, 2008 4:05 PM EDT
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to put it simply
holliday OPS+ – Skippy OPS+
152-113 = 39
Grudz OPS+ – Kennedy OPS+
109-80 = 29
not the same, but darned close, and Holliday has been helped by his field a lot more than Grudz has. it’s when you consider the cost that grudz becomes more valuable. 2 weeks ago when Kennedy’s OPS+ was low-60’s, it was a no-brainer. now that he’s been hitting a bit, it’s a slightly tougher decision- but the fact that Ryan hasn’t hit, and you could platoon grudz and Kennedy, should make all the difference.
"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN
by SleepyCA on
Jul 12, 2008 4:01 AM EDT
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I never said they are the same thing
I said that, the gap between Holliday and Skip this year is only a little bigger than the gap between Grudz and Miles. Holliday is a much better player than Skip, I don’t dispute that. However, Grudz is also much better than Miles/Kennedy. And yes, the 7th/9th spot is killing this team. Once you get past #6 in the order you can pretty much forget about scoring runs, and that’s a problem.
by mikedallas45 on
Jul 11, 2008 1:41 PM EDT
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except you are compairng
Skips at bats against righties with Holliday against all pitchers. If Skip played everyday, he wouldn’t be anywhere close to Holliday.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 1:53 PM EDT
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To me it's all about cost benefit
According to Mikedallas45 Holliday’s VORP is 40.3 and Skip’s is 17.1 meaning a difference of 23.2.
I don’t have access to baseball prospectus so I don’t know Grudz’ is this year but the last 2 have been right at 18. If you assume an 18 and then compare it to Izturis’s -0.7 you get a gap of 18.7. Nearly the same as Holliday/Skip difference.
Now no one can argue that Grud is anywhere near the player that Holliday is, but I’m pretty sure Grud could be obtained for a decent prospect and a throw in. Heck, maybe Reyes would be enough alone??? Holliday would require gutting the farm.
I’d rather get my ~10 extra runs (20/half a season) giving up Reyes than Rasmus, Garcia and a few others.
by birdo rojo on
Jul 11, 2008 2:15 PM EDT
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Grudz and Izturis don't even play the same position
so i’m not sure what the point is. If you take out izturis, then you play either Miles or Ryan there and while Ryan is much better defensively than Miles, he’s not near the hitter. And Ryan’s defense, while some say is better than Iz2’s is not really helped by his hitting to be that much of an improvement.
Once again (and I should probalby consider putting this in my sig line), I do not think the team should go out and trade for Holliday, the cost is more than likely way too high. I simply have a problem when people compare Holliday and Grudz and Skip and think they’re all the same player.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 2:26 PM EDT
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OK - I'll try to restate in a different way
My only point is that the difference between Holliday and Skip is roughly the same as Grud and one of our other infielders. And getting Grud or some other decent MI is what we should do since the cost shouldn’t be too high.
by birdo rojo on
Jul 11, 2008 2:53 PM EDT
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If you want to focus on MI, that's fine, never said acquiring Holliday was a great idea
but I think you’re better off looking at someone like Brian Roberts (as was pointed out below) than Grudz. Although Roberts has a no-trade clause, but I think he was willing to waive it before the season started so why not now?
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 3:09 PM EDT
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If you want to play that game
If you want to look at each guys splits then you have to take into account what Holliday does away from Coor’s Field
by ebo on
Jul 11, 2008 2:39 PM EDT
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whats your point?
if you make Skip hit against lefties, it doesn’t matter if he’s hitting on the moon, he isn’t going to out hit Holliday.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 2:49 PM EDT
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I truly feel like a windsock on this...
One moment I want to go for it this year, and whatever we have to give up (within reason) is fine…the next minute, I want to hoard our prospects and retrench for 2009 and beyond.
I do think there is a middle ground here…we have a lot of decent prospects, some are better than others,and everybody isn’t going to play in St. Louis. The Post has been talking about this a lot this week…determine 4-5 guys you won’t trade outside of a real blockbuster…everybody else is on the table…be bold but don’t be desperate…the advantage we have over the Brewers and Cubs is that we don’t feel like we HAVE to win this year…I don’t think you ever pass up a chance to go to the playoffs if you have a shot, but this year of contention is an unexpected bonus…if there is someone out there you can get who gives you a chance to compete, then go get them, and worry about where they will fit later…frankly, that’s why the Bonds suggestions don’t seem as ridiculous to me as they did 4 months ago.
by tbell61 on
Jul 11, 2008 8:52 AM EDT
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agreed
Don’t bet the farm (literally in this case), but don’t be a stingy jerk or a nervous nelly either.
by spencegrif on
Jul 11, 2008 10:06 AM EDT
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same here
I was adamantly opposed to the Bonds suggests earlier in the season. Now, it seems like a great idea, especially since he’s cheap. We got Lohse for a good deal, why not continue looking for good deals in the bargain bin?
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 11, 2008 1:32 PM EDT
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Garcia
Az, I’m not disagreeing with your assessment about Garcia’s readiness, or lack thereof, but I think the analysis has to change a little given that he’s being called up as a reliever. Thompson looks like the #5 starter for now, as imho he should be. And in the pen Garcia is probably as good or better as any other lefthanded option the team has now. He’ll throw a few innings, probably in low leverage situations, and most likely get sent back down in a few weeks when Wainwright or Randy Flores is reactivated. I hear your point about guys on this team being set up to fail, but I’m not sure I see it in this case.
by DCGreg on
Jul 11, 2008 8:56 AM EDT
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If he's called up as a reliever I can't say I understand that either
My understanding, which could be wrong, was that he was going to start. As far as facing lefties as a reliever, there’s some debate as to his effectiveness against them. Setting that aside, if they are going to have Thompson start (whose in the same class as Reyes and Parisi at this point), than why call up Garcia? Is he demonstably better than Worrell or Motte. I’d say no. McClellan has the repertoire to retire lefties so the need for an actual left handed LOOGY seems superfluous to me. Garcia being called up for 2-3 innings a week seems particularly pointless when he needs to work on his secondary pitches and pitch sequencing (which is also far from ready for the majors).
by azruavatar on
Jul 11, 2008 9:34 AM EDT
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Agreed
If they called him up as a reliever it makes far LESS sense than if he was called up as a starter. His splits don’t show him to be dominating left handed hitters at any point in the minor leagues, and he’s a future starter, so he needs to be starting at AAA rather than relieving in the big leagues. You don’t work on things such as adding a third effective pitch or developing stamina at the big league level—those are the things that you work on in the minors.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 9:40 AM EDT
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Garcia's workload
First off, Dunc said he won’t start – it’s in today’s PD if I’m not mistaken.
As for Garcia working on his other pitches, at some point this season, he’ll probably have to go to the bullpen because he’ll have thrown too many innings. He threw 137 innings in 06 and 103 last year and is at 103 so far this year. I had envisioned those bullpen innings coming in St. Louis in August and September—it’s just happening a little earlier.
Motte and Worrell seem to have thrown pitched pretty well in the last couple of weeks, so perhaps they were viable options. But Garcia is a lefty, and I do think that counts for something notwithstanding this year’s splits, and he is probably better suited to long relief than either of the other two.
by DCGreg on
Jul 11, 2008 10:22 AM EDT
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How can you put Thompson's name in the same sentence with Parisi and Reyes?
I have a million times the confidence in Thompson as I do Reyes or Parisi. Parisi has gotten absolutely obliterated the last 3 or 4 times he’s pitched and Reyes is such a freaking enigma he has made himself practically useless.
Put either one of those two pitchers in the game the other night where Thomspson came in and tell me at least one of ‘em (Parisi) and maybe both don’t get shelled by the end of the 2nd inning. Reyes has shown in the past that you cannot rely on him in situations he doesn’t have full control (i.e., going through his entire routine before a start not to mention he really seems to feel bad for himself) and Parisi has just been bad on the same level as Kelvin Jiminez.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 12:16 PM EDT
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You're right
because Thompson has never gotten shelled before. Except he has. Referencing the most recent Thompson appearance and then claiming that he’s definitely better than Parisi and Thompson ignores their statistical records and the scouting report. Thompson is a fringe MLB pitcher with a single pitch—he’s Carlos Silva light. That’s how I list them in the same sentence.
by azruavatar on
Jul 11, 2008 1:00 PM EDT
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and Mike Parisi hasn't shown himself to be a major league pitcher
and Anthony Reyes has shown and abiltiy to not be able to get out of his own way.
I never said Thompson has never been shelled before (wait, let me re-read my post…...nope, never said it), but so has Adam Wainwright and CC Sabathia. Pitchers get shelled from time to time. It happens. But what I do know is that when called upon Thompson gives the most consistant effort of those 2. And frankly, I’m leaving Mike Parisi out of this conversation, it you want to convince yourself he’s a legitimate option right now, go ahead but I don’t have time for that nonsense.
Thompson is willing to do the dirty work, something that Reyes seems to have an alergic reaction to. If it’s not his way, he pouts. And then he turns into Eddie Haskell and cries to the media. Thompson is the most flexible guy they’ve got. He’ll start, he’ll go long relief, he’ll do whatever they ask of him and will give the team the best effort and chance to win in whatever situation he’s put in. Reyes is a roulette wheel. And Parisi is a roulette pistol with all cylinders loaded.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 1:11 PM EDT
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Where, sir did you ever get this idea that Anthony Reyes pouts?
He has spoken one time, one time to the media, and ends up on the DL. I actually heard Chris Maloney interviewed, and he said he works hard, gives him all he’s got every time he steps on the field, and is a good teammate. In the 4 years he’s been on the Memphis express, the one and only time I saw anything in the paper was right after the last time he was called up. When it was revealed that Duncan doesn’t speak to him….Please, link me to something else if you find it…..he didn’t say anything about being in the pen either. Again, link me to something if you have it…..I’ve been one of his biggest fans BECAUSE he never says anything about anything…..
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jul 11, 2008 1:17 PM EDT
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I am in agreement with you
on the baseball parts, but I can’t go along with bashing Reyes for “pouting.” AR has actually been MOST impressive for his professionalism in handling the way he’s been mishandled. Where do you get the “pouting” and “cries to the media” accusations from?
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Jul 11, 2008 1:18 PM EDT
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strange
all i’ve heard from reyes’ mouth is that he’s just trying to do what the team wants. IF i were in his shoes, i’d be much more openly critical of a team that has absolutely abandoned me.
by spencegrif on
Jul 11, 2008 1:18 PM EDT
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Since all three responses have the same quesiton, I'll address it here
Call it pouting or crying or whatever, how come at least once a year I hear about how Anthony doens’t understand why he’s not with the Cardinals or how he doesn’t understand why Duncan doesn’t like him or whatever. I called him Eddie Haskell for a reason. And it has been more than 1 time. He usually does it with the reporters in the minors. Sure, he’s asked a question and he answers them, but he’s yet to take any responsibilty and has a good way of making his coaches look like baffoons while coming out looking like a sympathetic figure.
I’m sure he’s not the only player who’s ever felt mis-used or treated unfairly, but I don’t feel like hearing about him either.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 1:25 PM EDT
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What other time? I think you are confusing what others say in the
media with what Mr. Reyes says. Please, find me the quotes you are talking about. I don’t believe they are out there….I really think you are off base here.
If you’re mad that Reyes is still in the organization-look to management. He sure can’t trade himself.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jul 11, 2008 1:29 PM EDT
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Honestly, I don't have time to search for newspaper articles
And I’m not mad that he’s still in the organization, you are the one who’s mad about it. However, I do understand that he’s not only pitched, but acted his way into a situation where the team can’t move him or rely on him. That’s an unfortunate situation, and maybe one that becomes better when he goes to another team. But they can’t simply trade him because it’s right for Anthony. Maybe, what’s right for the team is simply waiting for him to walk as a free agent since he’s at least shown to be a stable aspect of the Memphis rotation and any return they get for him in trade is a useless chip that does nothing but clutter someones roster.
Besides, you said he’s only spoken to the media one time, well he spoke twice the last time he was in St. Louis. Once about the not talking to Duncan thing and how he didn’t understand why Dave hated him so much. The second time was after the move to the DL and he said he didn’t understand why he was DL’d and that he’d been pitching with it for a while and he just brought it up in converstation thinking nothing would be made of it (once again, such a victim). So there’s two instances. Just becasue it’s not a feature article doesn’t mean he’s not speaking with the media. This stuff shows up in notes and things at the bottom of columns and updates which is extremely difficult to find after a few days.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 1:42 PM EDT
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Oh, the confusion that happened when he was put on the DL....
Um, that sort of happened because they announced it to the media BEFORE they told him he was on the DL…...he did speak the “company line” once he knew what it was…..
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jul 11, 2008 1:50 PM EDT
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So, it's not his fault.....again.
I wish I had half the excuse makers Anthony Reyes has.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
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Hey, if he didn't know, he didn't know. Pretty simple to understand.
The same thing happened to Jim Edmonds last year…...it’s seems to be routinely done down there. Perhaps a better response would be “no comment” for the next player. It’s not an excuse. It’s a fact.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jul 11, 2008 1:59 PM EDT
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These are a bunch of suppositions and assertions
show me some statistical proof that Thompson is a demonstrably better pitcher than either Parisi or Reyes. It isn’t there. It’s subjective and unproven. I don’t care if Thompson gives you “the most consistent effort” if his effort isn’t good pitching.
Thompson’s willing to do the dirty work and is flexible - what does that even mean? Parisi doesn’t even have all his cylinders loaded - is baseless and meaningless.
Take a look at the translations for Parisi—he’s pitched well at AAA. That’s actual measurable evidence of his performance rather than mudslinging and wishcasting things away as nonsense (which is terribly bothersome).
by azruavatar on
Jul 11, 2008 2:35 PM EDT
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I didn't make up the batting practice sessions he's thrown
his last 4 appearances. Call that mudslinging or wishcasting or whatever. That’s an actual fact and I have an aversion to guys throwing batting practice at the major leage level.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 2:45 PM EDT
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thompson has had plenty of those days as well
glad you think you can sum up a players worth in 3-4 starts. I’m of the opinion that in his time with the Cards previously he might have learned a thing or 2 which he is currently implementing well in AAA.
by FunkeeC on
Jul 11, 2008 2:52 PM EDT
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so, he didn't learn anything
the last time he got called up and got shelled in relief, but all of a sudden he’s learned it now? And he’s implementing it now? How bout let him see if he can keep implementing it at the AAA level as opposed to see what happens against major league hitters?
Anyway…
Have I gone completely insane? Where is all of this Mike Parisi love coming from? Well, I sure as hell don’t want to hear anyone bitch the next time he pitches. People were treating him like Kelvin Jiminez or Randy Flores the last couple times he pitched and now I’m a mudslinger and wishcaster because I don’t want to see him pitch. Really? Is this April 1st or lets play a big practical joke on Tackle Box day and I’m not aware of it?
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 3:06 PM EDT
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you're totally missing the point
the term batting practice is inherently dismissive. You don’t attempt to explain or offer the rationale behind it besides just throwing it out there.
The mudslinging of Reyes pouting and all the other arbitrarily assigned attributes are largely without factual basis and are just statements that you, personally, probably can’t support in anything more than a cursory way.
by azruavatar on
Jul 11, 2008 3:24 PM EDT
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If you want to challenge my opinion or whether or not
Reyes is pouting or whatever, fine. That’s obviously a matter of opinion and nothings going to come of it since no matter what you or I or jill have to say about it, doens’t change his status with Duncan and that’s all that really matters.
But as far as using the term “batting practice”, I thougt it was pretty self-explanitory. If you want to explain it differntly, sobeit. You apparantly think he was “struggling” (both of which are objective terms). Whatever. And as for the reason behind it? Who knows, but why should he just be granted another chance so quickly after getting beat up (sorry, I can’t help being objective or dismissive) in 4 straight appearances simple because he did fine at AAA?
Is it possible that it’s not me necessarily that has something against Mike Parisi as much as its you and some others who have a problem with Brad Thompson and it ticks you guys off when he doesn’t fail when so many predict it every single time he pitches? Tell me what it is exactly about Mike Parisi that you are so enamored with? Serioulsy, I need to know why he’s worth defending so darn much and why he deserves a spot on the major league roster instead of Thompson.
Actually, forget it. Agrueing about Mike Parisi has wasted more than enough of my day. Please consider me out of this. You either have something FOR Parisi (that is oblivious to me) or you have something AGAINST Thompson. Either way, I’ve lost interest.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 3:51 PM EDT
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well
I’m a Thompson supporter, at least until we get someone back better than he is. I think he’s definitely better than Parisi, but I might take my chances with Boggs again, probably about equal risk as Thompson. Reyes is obviously an albatross at this point
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 11, 2008 4:09 PM EDT
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When I saw Parisi pitch in AAA
Hitters were unable to lift low fastballs & his slider off the corner was getting swinging strikes. In the bigs, he was much more up in the zone & getting hammered. If the hammering was being done on the low fastball or the slider was being hit over the right fielder’s head, I’d think it’s time to give up on him. As it is, I’d say there’s some hope. Whether the time to try him again is now, September, or 2009, hell, I don’t know.
by random on
Jul 11, 2008 4:21 PM EDT
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It's real simple
1) I didn’t like the character assassination that was going on because I think it’s unfounded.
2) Thompson’s 5.90 FIP last year in 130 innings makes me wonder why YOU think he’s kept us in so many games or is really a better pitcher. I think they’re both fringe players—I’ve said that from the outset. You’re the one who drew the difference between the two with the claim that Thompson was better. I asked you to support that with some kind of evidence and you’ve, as of yet, been unable to do much besides say it’s self-explanatory.
by azruavatar on
Jul 11, 2008 5:23 PM EDT
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at least B.T.
has more big league experience and probably can handle the pressure better. Parisi seems to not be able to locate his pitches in the bigs consistently. but thompson is not much better at that anyway.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 11, 2008 5:40 PM EDT
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It seems like they have been demoing pitchers in the majors
to maybe trade them? why else would they bring up guys for a little bit and rotate them back to the minors. could be a coincidence due to injuries, but maybe it’s both
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 11, 2008 1:34 PM EDT
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It's not just the Cardinals
all teams do this. It’s really not a big deal until people start making excuses and create the big deal.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 1:56 PM EDT
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The team needs a good lefty in the pen
Garcia has the tools to be that but is not going that good right now. Since he is definitely in the club’s plans, bring he up, let Duncan, Mason look at him,see what they think can put him on track. If they can correct something in short fashion so he can be helpful now…fine, you don’t have to be giving up prospects to get the lefty you need. If more work is needed send him back down with more instruction, dedication..get him ready for August, September. I don’t see anything wrong with bringing up Garcia, makes sense to me.
I also think that that Reyes is not entirely out of Cardinals plans, their thinking could be that at some point this year, they know that they are going to have to go to him, but in meantime just let him stay at Memphis, gain strength by pitching only 4,5 innings every 5th day till it is sure they need him for the stretch. The Cards still might trade Reyes but they are not going to give him away. If they really wanted to get rid of Reyes, they could have gotten a fair return for him by now. I don’t think the Cards really want to trade Reyes, unless he can tip the scales in a major trade down the road sometime.
by ridgesee on
Jul 11, 2008 9:54 AM EDT
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Colby on the DL
“Just when it appeared that Colby Rasmus was figuring out Triple-A pitching, the St. Louis Cardinals’ top prospect saw his season come to a halt on Thursday when the center fielder was placed on the Memphis Redbirds’ seven-day disabled list.
Rasmus is reportedly suffering from a strained groin.
He was hitting .249 with 11 home runs and 36 RBIs, but the DL trip comes at a time when Rasmus was hitting well. In June, he hit .333 (33-for-99) with 22 runs scored, eight doubles, four home runs and 15 RBIs. But he has not played since July 1.”
by FlimtotheFlam on
Jul 11, 2008 9:02 AM EDT
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"come to a halt"
that’s awfully dramatic for a strained groin. not to mention that’s almost certainly retroactive to the last 4 days since he hasn’t been playing.
by azruavatar on
Jul 11, 2008 9:35 AM EDT
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what are the roster limits in the minors?
You know like the mlb team can’t carrry more than 25 guys, seems like it’s higher in the minors (at least the lower levels).
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 12:21 PM EDT
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Garcia decision
was three fold in my opinion. Get a lefty in the bullpen for the four games before the break, give the kid a taste of the bigs and keep the replacement starter on schedule in the minors until July 21st.
Watched Garcia from the bullpen in Citizens Bank yesterday and his pitches sounded good. Couldn’t see location too well because he was using the mound closer to the wall. Citizens Bank Park is a really nice place to watch a game.
On the streaky hiiters, add Albert to the list. He hasn’t been lighting the world on fire in the 14 games since coming back from the DL. 2 HR 7 RBI in 51 ABs are nice but more is needed from Albert for this team to win.
by ubeddie on
Jul 11, 2008 9:14 AM EDT
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Garcia to the pen
I’m with you, ubeddie. I’m surprised Garcia wasn’t called up sooner, with the left side of the pen struggling. Breaking-in young pitchers out of the pen is often very effective (Chad Billingsly, Wainwright, et al.). Keeping Garcia in the pen and available for spot starts seems like a great move for a contending ballclub. Yes, he’s coming up to start now, but I have to believe that a bullpen/spot starter role is what awaits him.
I also disagree with the argument that, because he may not give us much more than Boggs, Parisi, etc., it’s not worth giving him a shot. Garcia is a higher-ceiling talent and hasn’t been rushed through the system. I’d much rather roll him out and see what he can do than flail for a trade to match the Cubs/Brewers.
by bgodar on
Jul 11, 2008 9:26 AM EDT
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It's still a poor decision...
Yes, he hasn’t been rushed through the minors, but he missed significant time last year with an injury so you have to factor that in.
Billingsly and Wainwright were very effective starters at the AAA level before they were called up. Garcia, to this point, hasn’t been effective consistently at Memphis, and his last few starts have been shaky as well.
Neither Az nor I are advocating trading for an arm—what we’re saying is that you already have plenty of effective pitchers on the 40 man roster, so it doesn’t make any sense to put another guy on there when Boggs or Parisi (who’s pitched much better than Garcia since returning to Memphis) could come up and fill that void.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 9:45 AM EDT
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I agree it is a poor decision
if it is supposed to support TLR’s “win now” desire. If Garcia is going to be the last guy called upon so he can just do mop up duty and get a little experience, I don’t have a problem with that. Probably do him good to get some time with Duncan. If they expect him to be either a LOOGY or a starter, it is likely a mistake. Given his rather precipitous decline last year before being shut down and his recent struggles, it would seem he is either injured or needs to develop more stamina.
If they are trying to evaluate him as a prospect by giving him a completely new role, or an undefined role,and inconsistent work – well, that is plain foolish. If they want to put him on the Wainer path then it should be done at the start of a season.
FWIW, Garcia’s numbers at AAA are very similar to Wainer’s:
Wainer: 14-14, 246 IP, 1.43 WHIP, 4.64 ERA, 2.89 BB/9, 7.72 K/9
Garcia: 4-4, 68.2 IP, 1.41 WHIP, 4.59 ERA, 3.27 BB/9, 7.47 K/9
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Jul 11, 2008 11:56 AM EDT
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I agree that his numbers look like WW at Memphis...
But lets consider that his ERA was under 1 through his first three starts and has ballooned to 4.59 since the early part of June.
Wainwright was a much more polished pitcher in 2006 than Garcia is now, didn’t spend nearly half the 2005 season hurt, AND he spent a full year in the bullpen in 2006 before being put in the rotation last year. It’s comparing apples to ice cream.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 12:13 PM EDT
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Wainwright and Garcia
They did both finish the season before their debut on the DL with elbow soreness for which rest was prescribed.
And I’d rather have ice cream than apples.
by liam on
Jul 11, 2008 12:16 PM EDT
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the difference being
that Wainwright was already at the AAA level when he got hurt, had proved he could pitch there consistently, and pitched extremely well in Spring Training before he was added to the bullpen for that year. Garcia got hurt last year and hadn’t even pitched at the AAA level yet—he’s got exactly 70 innings there his year….30 good and 40 mediocre.
I like apple crisp with ice cream, but I wouldn’t compare them as foods—they simply complement one another nicely, as Garcia will complement WW in the rotation next year after he pitches a full, healthy season in minors and faces some big league batters in spring training.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 2:23 PM EDT
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apple crisp and ice cream?
why have I never tried this? I love them both.
I agree with the analogy, put in a easily understandable and tasty way.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 11, 2008 5:07 PM EDT
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I would suggest
the apple crisp be warm and the ice cream be Breyer’s Vanilla Bean.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Jul 11, 2008 6:05 PM EDT
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i am going to give that a try
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 11, 2008 8:54 PM EDT
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"hasn't been lighting the world on fire"
albert, since coming off the DL:
.353/.433/.529
sure, his slugging and his .962 OPS are below typical pujols territory, but… come on!
(BA and OBP over those 14 games are both higher than his career average)
by baw on
Jul 11, 2008 1:03 PM EDT
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We don't need another singles hitter
Albert is counted on to drive in runs. 7 rbi’s in 51 ABs over 14 games fits the statement “isn’t lighting the world on fire”. If he was on a tear, he would have had a hit Wednesday to drive in 2 instead of a sac fly, leaving it to Santa to drive in Schu from 2nd. I stand by the statement.
by ubeddie on
Jul 11, 2008 3:29 PM EDT
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.529 Slugging ≠singles hitter
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on
Jul 11, 2008 5:18 PM EDT
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do note...
...that vaunted “singles hitters” Jim Edmonds, Mike Schmidt, Mo Vaughn, Willy Stargell, and Gary Sheffield have career slugging percentages between .5178 and .5286 – or you know, a hair below what Albert’s put up since 6/26.
by jdub176 on
Jul 11, 2008 5:51 PM EDT
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you've got to be kidding
even IF RBI were a measure of a hitter’s productivity… 7 in 51 AB is not some horrific slump.
i did a quick scan of albert’s ABs since coming off the DL, and other than your Glaus HR example (which, as noted was preceded by a pujols RBI), I find a total of THREE instances when the cards had RISP and albert made an unproductive out.
your statement is wrong.
by baw on
Jul 11, 2008 6:00 PM EDT
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not to mention the production from the one and two slots has been terrible.
I saw the stat in today’s P-D, but don’t recall it off the top of my head.
If there’s nobody on base, Pujols can’t drive them in.
by tom s. on
Jul 11, 2008 6:26 PM EDT
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Readiness
I don’t think that Rasmus is any more ready, as a hitter, for the bigs than Boggs or Garcia are as pitchers. And there’s no evidence that he is any less streaky than our other complimentary hitters to Pujols, given Rasmus’s poor start and productive June. I would target Roberts, but dealing with Angelos is a pain.
The AAA pitcher that should’ve gotten the call was Reyes. He has more big league experience, has shown an ability to throw multiple pitches for strikes, and has even demonstrated an ability to be a solid pitcher at this level. I’m not saying that Anthony Reyes is the future ace of our rotation or even that he should have a slot in the rotation through season’s end, but I think that he is the pitcher who, hands down, gives us the best chance to win on July 21, the next time we’ll need a starter.
Option #2, to me, is Das WunderBrad, who also has big league experience and who gives a better chance to win right now than Garcia, IMO.
What’s more, I don’t know why you would deny Garcia the chance to hone his craft at AAA when he clearly is not ready to start at the MLB level.
I gained a lot of respect for Mo in the offseason with his maneuvers and then in-season with sending Lil’ Dunc down. But, these last few weeks boggle my mind. Our strategy seems to be: “Throw Mulder/Boggs to the lions and see if he can pitch.” It’s frustrating as a fan and unfair to the players.
by bgh on
Jul 11, 2008 9:15 AM EDT
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Totally agree on AReyes, BGH
but as AZ said above, he doesn’t figure in the Cards’ future so he’ll never pitch for STL again. Unfortunately every other MLB club knows this too, so Mo cannot move him except as a throw in. What a shame.
Put me in the “Add a bat” camp. We can’t score unless we string 4 hits together (or their equivalents). IMO one of the 4 OF has to be packaged w/ prospects to get that player. My top three: Holliday, Roberts, C. Guzman.
BBonds is intriguing but ultimately he’s lose-lose. The press will crucify the team, and I fear the clubhouse atmosphere will tank.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2
by gocards62 on
Jul 11, 2008 9:23 AM EDT
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Reyes and July 21st
may be the plan. Calling AReyes up yesterday would have put him “on the shelf” for 10 days until he was asked to start. Leaving him at Memphis allows him to get in two more starts and stretch out his arm. His two starts since coming off the DL have been very short pitch count limited outings. (2Jul – 47P-27S, 7Jul 66P-40S). Count me in the vast minority that we’ll see AReyes as the fifth starter until Wagonmaker returns.
FWIW, the Phillies sent Wednesdays winner Happ down to their AAA system to keep him sharp. They don’t need a fifth starter until the 22nd.
by ubeddie on
Jul 11, 2008 9:51 AM EDT
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A very good point
And one that I hadn’t thought of. But, given the Cardinals’ philosophy on rehabbing, wouldn’t we want to call Reyes up and put him in the ‘pen after two short rehab starts and then start him after using him sparingly in the ‘pen? (Just to be clear, this is a criticism of their handling of Mulder.) We can only hope that this is the plan and not Garcia. Whether or not Reyes is in the future plans for the organization, the here and now seems to dictate that he is the best option of poor options.
by bgh on
Jul 11, 2008 10:10 AM EDT
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But
If that is the case, then why not call up Parisi? He’s been more effective in his last two AAA starts than Garcia, and Garcia is someone who could benefit from starting at AAA since he has a higher ceiling. Parisi is probably not anything more than a 5th starter/long reliever, so why not bring him up to fill that role?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 10:20 AM EDT
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Mental is my guess
Parisi has been rocked with the big Cards, they’re probably going to leave him down until Sept. so he can get some confidence back and not become a headcaes that can’t throw a strike.
by birdo rojo on
Jul 11, 2008 11:39 AM EDT
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Lefty is my guess
Don’t forget that Flores is on the DL, leaving TLR one LOOGY to mix-and-match with: Villone. Calling up Garcia allows TLR an additional lefty in the ‘pen and for management to see how he performs versus big league hitters.
Parisi has been effective as a reliever and we will hopefully see him up filling that role after the All-Star Game.
by bgh on
Jul 11, 2008 12:52 PM EDT
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Can't argue with that
Likely a combination of both factors
Villone makes a good LOOGY – only problem is he can’t get righties out so he’s pretty much SOL if it’s a high leverage inning set as a LRL.
Since Garcia’s been starting his splits have shown he can get righties and lefties out.
by birdo rojo on
Jul 11, 2008 1:00 PM EDT
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If you think Parisi has been effective as a reliever
You obviously failed to notice the two back-to-back sudden- death chokes that got him returned to Memphis, where he just had an unimpressive start after one or two decent ones. I hope he gets nowhere near the Cardinal bullpen in the foreseeable future.
by Mike G on
Jul 11, 2008 1:10 PM EDT
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Parisi
Citing two late inning game-deciding run yields would also allow one to say that McClellan has been ineffective as a reliever because he has lost leads or ties late in games (like Wednesday) which has given him a 1-4 record (which I cite only for evidence of decisive runs being given up since wins and losses is a ridiculously arbitrary statistic.)
Parisi has a 4.41 ERA as a reliever in 16.1 IP, which is higher than Springer, Franklin, McClellan and Perez but lower than Villone, Flores, Izzy, Jimenez, and Worrell. I’m not advocating that he be thrown into high leverage situations (which often can’t be helped in extra inning games), but he is a useful middle innings hurler.
As for his “two decent” starts, he’s had much more than 2 “decent” starts and has been pitching very, very well in AAA this season. 8 of his 11 starts this year have been quality starts. He has allow two or fewer runs in 7 starts. On June 11, vs. Iowa, he three a complete game, giving up 2 runs. On June 16, he gave up 2 runs in 7 IP. On June 21, he gave up 2 runs in 7.2 IP. On June 29, 2 runs in 7.2 IP. On July 4, 2 runs in 7.2 IP. By my count, that is four very good starts before getting roughed up by New Orleans for 4 runs in only 4 IP.
by bgh on
Jul 11, 2008 2:01 PM EDT
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How about the fact that the last four times he's pitched
the other team has taken batting practice against him. Don’t remember that being an issue with McClellan. And I think Parisi did really well at AAA before his last promotion to batting practice pitcher with the big club, so…once again, it’s not all in the stats especially AAA stats.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 2:05 PM EDT
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an expectation for every pitcher to come up and be dominant
is entirely unrealistic.
by azruavatar on
Jul 11, 2008 2:36 PM EDT
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where did you get that I expeced him to be dominant?
i’d just like to not watch the other team take batting practice. I don’t think that’s too unrealistic either.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 2:40 PM EDT
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When the other team took “batting practice” implies that you think no pitcher should struggle transitioning to the majors or that Parisi’s struggles are somehow unique and indicative of him being a bad pitcher.
You don’t seem to offer anything concrete when you talk about players instead simply turning to slanderous remarks that are exceedingly subjective and debatable. McClellan didn’t struggle therefore Parisi shouldn’t either—that’s not really an accurate reflection of how player development takes place.
by azruavatar on
Jul 11, 2008 2:46 PM EDT
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I'm not the one who chose to
compare McClellan and Parisi. I think Parisi’s a bad pitcher, no matter what McClellan has done. And there’s a big difference between struggling and doing what Parisi has done. Pitchers who “struggle” like Parisi has struggled don’t need to be pitching to major league hitters when the team is trying to win games. And, frankly, “struggle” is sugar coating it a bit.
It’s the same argument people had against starting Mulder. Most felt starting him was a sure fire way to throw away any chance at winning the game. Why should it be any different with Parisi when he’s gotten shelled (sorry, objecitve again) 4 times in a row. 2 as a starter, and 2 as a reliever?
I guess I’m just completely surprised at the importance you put on Mike Parisi’s development or career or contribution to the team or something else I can’t put my finger on.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 2:59 PM EDT
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Starting or Relieving
He got shelled in his starts, but faired much better in relief, which is what we were discussing. It’s not surprising, since he doesn’t have that wide an arsenal of effective pitches to throw. Starting him exposing this liability, while using him for a handful of outs from the bullpen does not.
The McClellan comparison was meant merely to point out that McClellan has given up the losing runs while breaking into the bigs does not make one a horrendous relief pitcher. McClellan has gotten a chance to redeem himself while Parisi has not. I’m not saying Parisi should be called up just so he can redeem himself; rather, I am saying that he is a legitimate option to pitch out of the bullpen if needed.
Additionally, if he had gotten “shelled” as a reliever, his ERA would be demonstrably higher as a reliever than it is, since he has only tossed 16+ innings as a reliever.
Using Parisi in the bullpen does not hurt that Cards’ chances of winning.
by bgh on
Jul 11, 2008 3:27 PM EDT
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agreed
i think that garcia is just a stopgap until flores gets back, i might not like it, but i will go along with it. he might end up being a great loogy while he is here.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 11, 2008 5:09 PM EDT
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totally agree bgh
To me Rasmus and Garcia are two sides of the same coin - big-league talents who need more time at AAA and are probably not ready to provide the big club the kind of lift that Azruavatar is seeking. And Rasmus is almost the definition of a streaky hitter - again, not sure that he would provide the kind of consistency Az thinks the offense needs. If I had my druthers I’d keep them both at Memphis until the roster expands in Sept.
by DCRedbird on
Jul 11, 2008 2:11 PM EDT
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I never thought I'd say this.....
but signing Bonds isn’t as bad an idea as I’d thought earlier this year. There is no cost, in terms of prospects, and he would add an impact bat without losing an outfield spot for Colby in ‘09. With the lack of starting pitching available, this would at least give us a fighting chance for the second half of the year.
Logan Fan
by Logan fan on
Jul 11, 2008 9:25 AM EDT
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exactly...
worry about the indictment later…we won’t need him after this year anyway…his knees aren’t what they used to be, but we have Skip to play late inning defense…Bonds might be just the bone to throw to TLR without giving up young players, but making a run at winning…the league is weak this year…as we have seen in 2006, if you get into the playoffs, anything can happen.
by tbell61 on
Jul 11, 2008 10:48 AM EDT
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Add to that Tony seems to want Bonds as well
A tandem of Pujols and Bonds would be awesome, IMHO.
by saladdays on
Jul 11, 2008 11:05 AM EDT
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I'm with ya.
Never in my life did I EVER think that I’d want Barry Bonds on my team, but I’m all for it. He’s cheap, and we wouldn’t have to trade anyone…meaning, we could still trade for a reliever or something. Can you imagine being able to use him as a pinch hitter?!
by launchshuttle on
Jul 11, 2008 11:18 AM EDT
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im jumping on the bandwagon
im not really anxious about all the espn specials about st louis harboring steroids abusing major leaguers that may follow, but bonds would be a great boost for our offense and would provide the best protection for albert that money can buy. and our man up top is definitely right about being able to handle a bonds in left field. we have great defense all around and getting weaker in left is far outweighed by the offense he would produce. plus, i would like to see how insanely huge the head on a barry bonds bobble head might be.
by krippledmaster on
Jul 11, 2008 12:31 PM EDT
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in all honesty
espn loves Barry Bonds. He hits home runs, therefore espn likes. I don’t know why, but that station has gone out of its way to make him look like an actual human being with his reality show and such. They fawn over him at the WWL.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 12:34 PM EDT
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Ugh to all the bandwagon jumpers
Just say no to Bonds. He is the last thing this team needs or should want.
by Mike G on
Jul 11, 2008 1:14 PM EDT
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25
he doesnt get to wear 25 if he comes to play. some other number, not 25.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on
Jul 11, 2008 12:46 PM EDT
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that would be a little strange, wouldn't it?
I’m sure he’d go with 24.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 1:00 PM EDT
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Then he would have to talk nice
to Rick to get him to give up the #24.
by cardsgirl95 on
Jul 11, 2008 1:22 PM EDT
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crud
forgot about that, I was looking at retired numbers and such. Maybe he should wear 25, between Mac, Bonds and Giambi that number has sort of become a Scarlet “A”.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 1:30 PM EDT
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Maybe it is a Scarlet "S"
for steroids. J/K
by cardsgirl95 on
Jul 11, 2008 4:14 PM EDT
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So it's Bonds/Mather/Ludwick platoon in LF, then?
Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2
by gocards62 on
Jul 11, 2008 1:29 PM EDT
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I agree
I wrote this on the fanpost and decided to repeat it here.
We should try to sign Bonds to a minor league deal. That would give us a couple weeks to evaluate whether or not he is still capable of hitting and getting on base well, and it would give the team a chance to gauge the public response to him as a cardinal. We could give him a 3-4 week window where we either have to put him on the active roster or release him (like weaver with the brewers). We know he doesn’t always play the full 9, so Skip could always be a late replacement, and Skip would still get to start 1 out of every 3 games since bonds doesn’t play every day (Plus, he would be a nice DH if we make the World Series…).
"Them Cubbies can kiss my ass" -Dizzy Dean
by Molina4MVP on
Jul 11, 2008 6:10 PM EDT
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Rasmus
Trust me, I’m in the camp of wanting Rasmus up here ASAP, but at the same time he seems to struggle when he gets the call to the next level. I understand that it isn’t a prolonged slump, I’m not saying that. It just takes him a while to make the adjustment which is expected of a young position player. That being said, I don’t think he is the best option for a bandaid, great option for next year and beyond, just not right now.
Bonds would be the worst signing that the team could make. I understand that in a sense it makes baseball sense to add some thump, but come on, Bonds in St. Louis? All of the good press that these young, fresh faces have gotten would fly right out the window in every column in the StLPost-Dispatch (aside from maybe Mr. Burwell’s column).
I know it isn’t the best option, but I think you go after Holliday or better yet, B Roberts.
Go Crazy Folks, Go Crazy!!!
by joshbaz12 on
Jul 11, 2008 9:31 AM EDT
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Who is Jack Cassel?
I haven’t heard you mention him before. /sarcasm
by JBrew on
Jul 11, 2008 9:35 AM EDT
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I just stumbled across him
/end pitch to be his agent
by azruavatar on
Jul 11, 2008 9:38 AM EDT
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PS
In a couple weeks, I’ll probably troll the minor league data to find some free new AAAA players to fawn over.
by azruavatar on
Jul 11, 2008 9:39 AM EDT
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I usually wait
until Szymborski publishes his MLE spreadsheet.
/lazy
by liam on
Jul 11, 2008 11:43 AM EDT
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My own Jack Cassell
Chris “The Missile” Gissell has turned himself into quite the strikeout pitcher after two years in Japan.
by liam on
Jul 11, 2008 12:35 PM EDT
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Can we stop throwing the name
“Guzman” around? This guy has been a steadily awful offensive player until suddenly posting an .846 OPS in very limited duty in 2007, and is having a nice year in 2008 so far, but I wouldn’t bet 3 twinkies that he’ll sustain this all year.
Are we that desperate to be actually looking at this guy? In DC, Jim Bowden has been excoriated for years now for giving him his ridiculous contract.
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Jul 11, 2008 9:53 AM EDT
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He was
nearly blind for most of his career. He got laser eye surgery in 2007 and he started hitting. The limited duty is a result of his being hurt a number of times in the last couple years too. So, healthy+functioning eyeballs=much improved player.
by spencegrif on
Jul 11, 2008 10:10 AM EDT
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So it never occurred to him or
anyone else, until he was 28 years old, that maybe his eyesight was a problem? Yeesh.
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Jul 11, 2008 11:31 AM EDT
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I agree
his batting average is closely tied to his OBP, and he doesn’t take very many walks, or pitches for that matter. While he may have had laser eye surgery, I’m not betting that he’s going to match his first half after the break and his contract is HORRIBLE!!!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 10:22 AM EDT
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Good Post
I agree that the Holliday talk is ridiculous—what good does it do to sit a productive outfielder while continuing to play Izturis, Ryan, Miles, and Kennedy in the middle infield? Combined they are barely better than replacement level. For what it would cost the Cardinals, it’s simply not worth it.
I’ve been advocating trading for Roberts for a long time - I don’t think he’d cost us Rasmus or Anderson because the Orioles have young players at CF and C, and they would probably be interested in some of the young arms in the Cardinal system, like Boggs, Garcia, Todd, or (hopefully), Anthony Reyes. They would probably also be interested someone like Chris Duncan who has been hitting better as of late or John Jay, who could be a corner outfielder for them in a couple of years. They also have a good lefthanded bullpen arm in Sherrill - if I was Mo I’d be seeing what combination of players could get a deal done for one or both of them. Roberts would add a good leadoff bat from the middle infield, which this club sorely needs, and Sherrill solved the lefty and back of the bullpen issues. Its literally killing two birds with one stone.
If you’re able to make that deal, giving up Duncan, Reyes, Garcia, Jay, and another player, then I think you can talk about signing someone like Bonds. I don’t think that he’s worth it, imo, but for the right price he could be helpful. I’m also not sure how long it would take before he’s an effective hitter. He’s never been a quick starter out of the gate, and he’s not been in spring training games either this year. If it takes a month for him to get going it may not be worth it because the Cardinals might be out of the race at that point. Agree that with Skip on the bench his defense becomes less of an issue, but I’m just not sure that he’s going to be effective with the bat to warrant the circus that surrounds him. The Yankees have never strayed away from players with problems (Strawberry, Gooden, Howe), could use a left-handed DH, and a healthy Barry could probably slug 20 homers hitting in Yankee stadium in the second half, and despite being in third place THEY haven’t even signed him yet. I do believe that says something about whether people really think that he can play at his level from last year.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 10:10 AM EDT
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Holliday and the glut of outfielders
I am not exactly a proponent of getting Holliday, but if the team does, they could probably swap one of our other OFs/prospects for a decent MIF. Maybe, maybe not, I am just saying that acquiring MH does not preclude the Cards from acquiring a MIF also.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 11, 2008 11:17 AM EDT
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maybe
but it depends on what you give up to get Holliday. I’m not in favor of gutting the decent half of the farm system for 2 players who could be gone after 2009. Then Albert walks a year later and we rebuld for 3-5 seasons. All conjecture, obviously, but the farm system is much better off than it was just a few years ago, and part of the reason is not dealing bunches of prospects for players.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 11:58 AM EDT
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Albert walks a year later
There is no way the team will let this happen.
by Red in Chicago on
Jul 11, 2008 12:22 PM EDT
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How?
They could offer him all the money in the world, but if he wants to go play for the Mets as a free agent, he’s going to go play for the Mets. The team could make it look like Pujols being selfish by disclosing their offer, but it doesn’t change the fact that he’d be leaving town and the organization would be rebuilding at that point.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 12:41 PM EDT
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Possible, I guess
but not likely—if he remains true to form. He seems uninterested in being a New York megastar. That could change, but he’s got an enormous house in Missouri, where he’s lived most of his adult life. I just don’t see it, really. But certainly, from a financial standpoint, they will crack open the piggy bank for Albert.
by Red in Chicago on
Jul 11, 2008 12:48 PM EDT
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They damn well better
or there’s gonna be a whole lotta pissed of fans … and that grudge could last a long time unless the Birds win a couple of titles right after letting him walk.
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Jul 11, 2008 1:03 PM EDT
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Cause the team holds an option...
for 2011. But your overall point is still valid.
by cardzfanbub on
Jul 11, 2008 1:06 PM EDT
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management, or lack thereof
I am amazed at the ongoing mis-management of assets that the Cardinals have shown over the last few years. They obviously have not changed their philosophy with regard to medical risks. Routinely they have thrown injured players out there to test their abilities when it seemed like they were both unlikely to succeed and at risk of further injury. We have seen this twice now with Mulder, plus Izzy, Rolen, Edmonds, and others. This goes beyond the quality of the team’s medical staff—it’s more a matter of organizational philosophy, as clearly they are pushing these guys out there. The whole tiff with Rolen was over this issue exactly, and with Mulder it’s exactly the same as they put him in a starting role when he hadn’t even demonstrated success at the minor league level or out of the major league bullpen.
I can’t understand why they continue to do this, as it has had distinct negative effects on performance. Again, think Izzy, Rolen, Mulder and others going out there and repeatedly not doing well when it was obvious to everyone that they physically limited because of injury. So not only does this strategy risk important long-term assets (players’ health), but it also has proven detrimental to short-term success.
I seriously hope that this latest incident will finally cause the Cards to reexamine their approach to handling injured players. This change is long overdue, IMHO.
by apack on
Jul 11, 2008 10:11 AM EDT
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Disagree
They had to kick the tires on their investments, as well as try and meet the need of the ballclub – namely, putting the best players on the field to win.
Mulder was pitching 92mph and had 100+ wins in his major league career. He’d gone through rehab, he’d done everything he could – and he maintained an excellent attitude through a process that may have crushed a lesser man. Look – I’m not a Mulder apologist, and I think that signing him to an extension was a joke. But hey – they had to see what was there.
As far as Edmonds, that wasn’t a potential career ender, and the options weren’t there. Izzy was put on the shelf – after he admitted being hurt, and trying to play through pain. He came back, and physically has been able to perform (we think).
Rolen is another one – a competitor and a team player. He was hurt, he tried to play with it, and he came back – albeit a lesser player, but still a solid 3B.
You also left out Molina. He could have played after his concussion this season, but they held him out because the risk was too great.
I do not think we have a bad approach to players coming back from injuries – at millions of dollars a year, we need to get these assets in the field as soon as possible. Remember, to us – it’s a game. To management, it’s a business.
I do have a problem with how we diagnose injuries. It seems as though we do not do the due diligence prior to surgery/rehab or when the injury occurs. And I’ve been saying that for a long time. If a million dollar asset is broken, you figure out what is wrong with it correctly the first time – and then fix it correctly, the first time. We don’t do that as a general rule.
I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck
by bukowski on
Jul 11, 2008 2:38 PM EDT
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Holliday no, Durham yes
Holliday has far too big of a dropoff at sea level (over his career, he loses about 270 OPS points away from Coors).
Ray Durham has a .380 OPS and a .420 SLG, and would be an offensive upgrade at 2B. He’s in the last year of his contract, the Giants are going nowhere, I believe he’s planning to retire, so the Cards should be able to rent him for a couple months pretty cheaply. Given that offensive problems with the Cards is centered on the MI, I think Durham would be an upgrade at a minimal cost.
Dave
by SydneyDave on
Jul 11, 2008 10:25 AM EDT
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.380 OBP?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 10:26 AM EDT
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Yes, OBP
My fingers are faster than my brain.
As to fielding, yes his range is limited. Does his offense offset Kennedy’s better defense? Don’t know.
Dave
by SydneyDave on
Jul 11, 2008 12:50 PM EDT
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Ray Durham's walker and cane
get in the way of him fielding anything not hit into his glove. He’s an atrocious defender.
by azruavatar on
Jul 11, 2008 11:48 AM EDT
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Az, I agree with you completely
I think a 2-bagger is still the single best way to improve this team. A more consistent bat in the outfield would also help, but, in my view, not as much. Bonds and Roberts, though, would utterly transform our offense.
I don’t see a good way to boost our rotation without unduly compromising our future prospects. A mediocre pitcher won’t help. We’ve got those. But a truly good pitcher will cost too much.
So the bat’s the thing. Hopefully at second.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on
Jul 11, 2008 10:39 AM EDT
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Doesn't Matter...
It doesn’t matter that Garcia wasn’t on the 40 man roster. Due to the 5 year veto rule, and the fact that this is Garcia’s 3rd year as a pro means that he will not be eligible for a 4th option year. The Cards are not eating an option on him, or timing it wrong. They prolly planned to put him on the 40 man next year ANYWAY because of Rule V protection—not that I think someone would want to have to hold him on the 25 man roster though…Have to think about that one. Anyway, the 40 man roster (thanks in part to our bevy of 60 day DL members) wasn’t full to begin with. They needed a lefty and this is the perfect time to try it out…
-CJ
by CardinalJohn on
Jul 11, 2008 10:58 AM EDT
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Answer is Thompson
Seems very clear cut to me. Thompson at this point is an experienced #5 major league starter who does a very good job of keeping his team in almost every ballgame he starts. He should fill the #5 spot until Wainwright is ready to roll.
Garcia is our #1 starting pitching prospect. He should be treated with great care and let develop slowly. He hasn’t shown in AAA that he is ready and he shouldnt be in the bigs yet.
As far as adding a bat….only if its in the MI spot.
Milt Thompson FTW!
by gossard56 on
Jul 11, 2008 11:04 AM EDT
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Agree
Wonderbrad is serviceable. Another bat keeps him in the game and gives us a better chance to win.
He’s not great – but he fills the need.
I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck
by bukowski on
Jul 11, 2008 2:39 PM EDT
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i just don't get it
either go for it or don’t go for it? That mentality drives me nuts. You should go for it every year. Thats the problem! If a guy like Holliday is available and you can get him for a reasonable price, you do it. He’s probably the best hitter out there outside of Bonds. We need protection for Pujols plain and simple. The other guys are just TOO streaky. Not every prospect is going to pan out. You take an educated guess on who is going to stick and then get rid of the other guys. I would rather have quality vs quantity.
Life is short! Break the rules! And never regret anything that made you smile.
by Section8 on
Jul 11, 2008 11:07 AM EDT
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Well, if getting Holliday is
your definition of “going for it,” and if you have to go for it every year, why do you put in the qualifier “for a reasonable price”? You’ve put your finger right on the dilemma. Sometimes the price can be so unreasonable that not going for it is the only response. I think you’re trying to make this dilemma sound simpler than it really is.
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Jul 11, 2008 11:44 AM EDT
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black and white
I tend to be black and white. I just don’t see the arguments on this post that we don’t need a guy like Holliday because “we have a glut of outfielders”. If Holliday is the best hitter out there and you can get him for a reasonable price, you do it all day long. Even if we give up prospects that are good. I mean, how many prospects do we need just to say our “system” is good. You have to give up talent to get talent. I’d much rather have a Matt Holliday on the the team protecting Pujols, then 3 or 4 mediocre guys that are overachieving this year.
Life is short! Break the rules! And never regret anything that made you smile.
by Section8 on
Jul 11, 2008 12:51 PM EDT
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But Brain Roberts improves the team more than adding Holliday
the marginal improvement in adding Roberts (slightly worse than Holliday, after you look at Holliday’s home/away stats) over Kennedy is way in excess of the marginal improvement in adding Holliday over Skippy.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on
Jul 11, 2008 12:58 PM EDT
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agree
however, how would Roberts help protect Pujols better than Holliday? I’d still rather have Holliday with the thinking that it would help Pujols and Holliday’s stats. Wouldn’t this offset the risk adjusted return vs getting Roberts?
Life is short! Break the rules! And never regret anything that made you smile.
by Section8 on
Jul 11, 2008 1:04 PM EDT
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Nobody but
ARod, Ortiz or Manny can protect Pujols. Adding a very good player (Roberts) to a place where there are now no good players (2B) is the best way to get a quick upgrade.
Brian Roberts is a helluva player, guys. He would be a difference maker.
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Jul 11, 2008 1:06 PM EDT
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I'm not the expert
how would you compare the stats if Roberts or Holliday was inserted into the line up? I’m just going on my own personal pref that I would rather have Holliday. Roberts is a little older, more wear and tear….besides, good luck dealing with the O’s.
Life is short! Break the rules! And never regret anything that made you smile.
by Section8 on
Jul 11, 2008 1:30 PM EDT
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You're looking
for David Pinto’s lineup toy. I’d be interested in seeing that run, too.
by liam on
Jul 11, 2008 1:38 PM EDT
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if I did this correctly
5.399 runs per game with Roberts and 5.345 runs per game with Holliday. The lineups were as follows (order didn’t matter):
Schumaker, Ankiel, Ludwick, Glaus, Izturis, Kennedy, Pujols and Pitcher
Holliday, Ankiel, Ludwick, Glaus, Izturis, Kennedy, Pujols and Pitcher
Life is short! Break the rules! And never regret anything that made you smile.
by Section8 on
Jul 11, 2008 2:17 PM EDT
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sorry
Molina was in there as well.
Life is short! Break the rules! And never regret anything that made you smile.
by Section8 on
Jul 11, 2008 2:20 PM EDT
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What's the baseline?
Runs scored without an acquisition made?
While you’re at it, care to sub in Greene’s career road rates for Izturis?
by liam on
Jul 11, 2008 2:30 PM EDT
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?
I just took their current stats and plugged them into the matrix.
Life is short! Break the rules! And never regret anything that made you smile.
by Section8 on
Jul 11, 2008 2:32 PM EDT
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I just mean
what does the toy say our current expected runs per game should be when you plug in a typical lineup we’ve been using. So how many additional runs are we looking at by making these trades?
by liam on
Jul 11, 2008 2:40 PM EDT
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ok
Here is the breakdown for RPG with our trades plugged in:
Standard line up- 5.020
Roberts (minus Kennedy) – 5.281
Holliday (minus Schumaker) – 5.317
Greene (minus Izturis) – 4.995
Don’t know why the numbers for Holliday and Roberts came out different then what I had before, but I triple checked their current stats before running the program.
Life is short! Break the rules! And never regret anything that made you smile.
by Section8 on
Jul 11, 2008 2:56 PM EDT
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If lineup don't matter
and, if i’m correct, it’s been proven here that batting the pitcher 8th actaully does score more runs or something, then how can lineups not matter?
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 2:32 PM EDT
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it does
I was limited based on site Liam recommended. It didn’t allow me to dictate in which order the players batted.
Life is short! Break the rules! And never regret anything that made you smile.
by Section8 on
Jul 11, 2008 2:34 PM EDT
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sheesh
order didn’t matter
for that particular lineup generatorsince it compares OBP’s and SLG’s and then gives you the best lineups with those particular players….the best lineup with Holliday and Roberts are listed respectively. Holliday’s improvement over Skip doesn’t make as much difference as Roberts over Kennedy
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 2:35 PM EDT
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I know I know
comparing Skips AB’s to RH pitchers only…blah blah blah. You can’t honestly say that Roberts isn’t a bigger improvement over our crappy hitting middle infielders.
You aren’t taking into account that his splits away from Coors haven’t been good until this year. So his numbers away from home could be a mirage this year as well—you just don’t know. I also think it would be much cheaper to acquire Roberts since we have more players in line with what the Orioles need than what the Rockies need.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 2:38 PM EDT
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Brain Roberts = Cleanup hitter for "Pinky" Wilkinson's scrappy team.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on
Jul 11, 2008 5:50 PM EDT
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Here is some black and white for you
Holliday’s having his best season ever away from Coors and his splits are .314/.405/.482. Now those are nice numbers espcially the average and the on-base, but the SLG is more in line with Skip and his ISO of .168 is barely better than Skip’s .143. Ank and Ludwick both slug better than him and Ank’s ISO is .258 while Lud’s is .186. If that is not enough for you, name one other hitter who has experienced anywhere near the same success after leaving Coors. The only run producer names that come to mind who even had a career after leaving Coors are Vinny Castilla (yuk) and Preston Wilson (double yuk).
I know this is statistically meaningless, but illustrative none the less: our current outfield starters have 2008 splits at Coors of .471/.526/.941 for an OPS of 1.412. Matt Holliday is not the answer.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Jul 11, 2008 1:37 PM EDT
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Once again
you are comparing Skip’s at bats against rhp vs. Holliday’s at bats against all pitchers and failing to take into consideration the huge number of road at bats he takes in Petco, San Fran, Dodger Stadium, and Arizona as opposed to Skip hitting on the road at Wrigley, GAB, PNC, Minute Maid, and Miller. Completely different ballparks and not really a fair comparison.
Make Skip hit against lefties in Petco and see if his numbers don’t come down a little.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 2:18 PM EDT
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I used all Skip's ABs
not just against RHPs. I can’t control the fact that he is not (thank God) an everyday player. If you use Holliday’s road numbers and put him in the same lineup with Ank and Lud he still has the lowest SLG and ISO.
The only current NL parks where Holliday has slugged over .500 in his career are Turner Field, Miller Park, and Citizens Bank (Phi). As is well known, he destroyed Cardinals’ pitching at the old Busch. He is .300/.364/.400 in all of three games at the new park.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Jul 11, 2008 4:32 PM EDT
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I realized you used all of his at bats
wasn’t trying to imply that you didn’t. Just making the point that Skips at bats are primarily against rhp which he is extremely good at hitting, while his abiltiy to hit lefties is, well, much worse to put it nicely. Basically comparing a platoon player with a full-time player and declaring them pretty much even isn’t a fair comparison.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 4:39 PM EDT
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I still believe
that anyone touted as protection and a difference maker should project as a significantly more powerful hitter than Schumaker regardless of who is pitching. Holliday still would project to be the least powerful hitter of the three outfielders.
If you think that is a good return for multiple prospects and about $18M in salary over the next season and a half, then I respect your right to hold that opinion. I just think the money and prospects could be spent in other ways that would better help the team actually win games.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Jul 11, 2008 6:10 PM EDT
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Roy Halladay
If the Jays really are in a throw in the towel mode, perhaps the could be persuaded into going into a blow it up mode. Burnett is a fine pitcher when healthy with great stuff, but Halladay is a great pitcher, the kind I wouldn’t mind giving up a couple top prospects for.
Probably no chance the Jays would put him on the market, but the thought does make me drool. He is the same age as AJ and who really wouldn’t rather have Doc?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 11, 2008 11:11 AM EDT
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Halliday just signed a contract
as is under contract through 2010. I doubt they’d be willing to give him up (even at 15 mil per season) for anything outside of the entire Red Sox minor league system.
by Tackle Box on
Jul 11, 2008 2:35 PM EDT
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I know that
and it would be Craaaaazzzy for them to do it, but it is J. P. Ricciardi we are talking about. Not exactly the sanest G.M. in my book.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 11, 2008 5:17 PM EDT
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A.J. Burnett
Keith Law of ESPN was on Jeff Gordon’s radio show earlier this afternoon. Law said that the Blue Jays might be tempted to trade Burnett, but for the Cardinals to be able to pry him away, Toronto wold probably require no less than Jaime Garcia dn Chris Perez. Burnett has an option for 2009 in which he can opt out of the contract and become a free agent after this season. If the Blue Jays would be willing to deal Roy Halliday for Chris Perez and Garcia, I’d be tempted . But I wouldn’t deal those two young pitchers for the potential rental of the underachieving Burnett.
by messy434 on
Jul 11, 2008 3:37 PM EDT
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I agree
for Halladay it would be worth thinking long and hard about,he is a horse. For Burnett…not so much. I just think he is too much of a question mark. I think it would take Rasmus, Garcia and a third top tier prospect to get Halladay though.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 11, 2008 5:21 PM EDT
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go for it
or don’t. cuz we need MI and bullpen help more.
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 11, 2008 5:42 PM EDT
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BTW
In todays Joe Strauss article there’s a quote from Duncan that says “Garcia will NOT start”.
Milt Thompson FTW!
by gossard56 on
Jul 11, 2008 11:23 AM EDT
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And with no better place to say this...
Put Ludwick back in the cleanup spot!!!
Milt Thompson FTW!
by gossard56 on
Jul 11, 2008 11:54 AM EDT
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Trade Thoughts
If only the Devil Rays were tanking, I’d resurrect Az’s Ben Zobrist plan.
Matt Holliday would be far too expensive in prospects for a left fielder when we’ve got excellent OF production.
A player I’d like to see us inquire into would be Khalil “Spicoli” Greene. He’s having a (severely) down year with the bat and is owed at least $6.5M next year with escalators based on his health this year. Away from PetCo, he’s a career .808 OPS (118OPS+) player who plays short about as well as Izturis. I could see him putting up huge numbers the rest of the year playing in some of the bandboxes in the NL Central. The Padres wouldn’t have a replacement for him, so Brendan Ryan would have to be included. They could put Anderson on their 25-man roster right away and see an improvementeven with both their catchers on the DL, I could imagine a platoon of Anderson/Hundley outperforming Josh Bard immediately.
After seeing what it took the Cubs to trade for Harden/Gaudin, I don’t feel qualified to argue about what it would take to pry him free, but this would seem to qualify as buying low from a team going absolutely nowhere this season, whatever Paul DePodesta may think.
Trading for Greene, without dealing Rasmus or Todd, would be the best way to improve the team that I can see.
by liam on
Jul 11, 2008 12:07 PM EDT
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Jeff Spicoli, absolutely
He wouldn’t be bogus at short!
by Red in Chicago on
Jul 11, 2008 12:24 PM EDT
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but wouldn't he be ordering pizzas and stuff like that out on the infield?
not to mention the suspicious smoke which would billow forth from the dugout…
by mattybobo on
Jul 11, 2008 3:10 PM EDT
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How soon you forget, silly person...
The last time the Cardinals made a late-season acquisition of a stoner was Jeff Weaver in 2006.
The Cardinals won the series in 2006, thanks in no small part to JeffWea.
Therefore, late season trades for pot-heads equals Cardinal World Series victories.
by liam on
Jul 11, 2008 3:17 PM EDT
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Simple Solution
Sign Bonds
Trade for Mark Ellis/Eric Patterson (whichever Oakland is flippling)
Slot Rad/Brad or Reyes in SP5
Pray for Rain…
by Lawless on
Jul 11, 2008 12:10 PM EDT
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I say...
pray for the second coming of Spahn and Sain and then maybe pray for Rain….
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 12:16 PM EDT
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Better than: Lohse, Loop, and Poop =)
Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2
by gocards62 on
Jul 11, 2008 12:49 PM EDT
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Piniero's looked great
of late.
Lohse and Piniero, then save your diniero?
by liam on
Jul 11, 2008 12:52 PM EDT
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Jo-el is the "hard luck" pitcher this season
Gives a great effort, but gets no result
Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2
by gocards62 on
Jul 11, 2008 1:30 PM EDT
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but gets a lot less people
backing him like cough reyes
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on
Jul 11, 2008 3:08 PM EDT
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I just can't help but to think
That in some alternative universe the Cardinals have this healthy rotation going this year.
Carpenter
Mulder
Kile
Ankiel
Wainwright.
by Evilfrog on
Jul 11, 2008 12:16 PM EDT
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That rotation would probably be more like this:
Ankiel (2 time Cy Young award winner and 2004 WS MVP)
Carpenter (Cy in 2006)
Mulder
Kile
Wainwright
Boston fans would still be suffering as well after watching Ankiel pull a Beckett on them by winning three games in the World Series….
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 12:20 PM EDT
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:-)
If you’re doing wishful thinking, might as well be going whole hog…. LOL
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jul 11, 2008 12:20 PM EDT
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if you are gonna do wishful thinking
Ank
Carp
Haren
Kile/Morris (Morris V.2002)
Wainwright
in a perfect universe that Mulder trade never happened
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 11, 2008 5:24 PM EDT
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get excited and don't worry about reading all the comments ...dumbass!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jul 11, 2008 5:25 PM EDT
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Kile would probably be retired by now
Considering that he was older than Morris, and more reliant upon that curveball. December 2nd would have been his 40th birthday. Sad to think that the guy should be moving on with his life now.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on
Jul 11, 2008 12:40 PM EDT
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I thought about the fact that he might be retired...
And was going to put in Reyes. But I didn’t want to open that can.
by Evilfrog on
Jul 11, 2008 2:42 PM EDT
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Sub Haren
in for Kile because of age.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on
Jul 11, 2008 12:55 PM EDT
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Who did we trade for Mulder, then?
by Hal Lanier's Pants on
Jul 11, 2008 1:24 PM EDT
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no one
Lohse is our #5
strikeouts from left-center
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jul 11, 2008 2:30 PM EDT
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John Gall
although Beane fleeced us by forcing us to throw in Andy Cavazos.
by Mr. Erin Andrews on
Jul 11, 2008 3:46 PM EDT
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I don't think Reyes is really even cleared to start yet
if you look at his stats in his last few starts for Memphis, he looks effective, but on a really low pitch count. His two post injury starts have him going 2 1/3 and 3 2/3 innings. And I don’t even think you can blame it on inefficiency, because he only has 3 walks and 3 strikeouts in those starts.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on
Jul 11, 2008 12:35 PM EDT
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He is on pitch count....
both times appeared to have command/control issues towards the end of the outing. On the positive side, they weren’t hitting him much, and when they were, they weren’t hitting him hard. I don’t want them calling him up. I think they need to just do like they’ve said they are going to do, and trade him.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jul 11, 2008 1:43 PM EDT
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They should do whatever helps the team the most
and I don’t think he’s going to help the team very much if he can’t eat innings due to a pitch count.. Which, I think, is a better reason to nix the Reyes talk than anything else, at least for now.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on
Jul 11, 2008 5:23 PM EDT
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someone help me understand....
What was the rush to get Mulder from the minors to the majors? I think someone had said somthing about him only being able to really be “hidden” in the minors for 30 days rehabbing?
None of Mulders minor league starts were good. I seem to remember a lot of excuses like he would have looked better if you take away the errors…....
I don’t really get a bothered by the whole Mulder saga since I knew even if he was lucky enough to pitch this year he would not last long on the Cards. I figured he would not even be healthy enough to make it back to the show and if he did he would be very inefective and would be released or sent to the DL for one of those phantom type injuries
by ICbirdfan on
Jul 11, 2008 12:42 PM EDT
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Who knows how effective he would've been?
He struck out the first batter he faced, injured himself on the strike 3 pitch.
by liam on
Jul 11, 2008 12:46 PM EDT
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It's not very likely a pitcher will be very good if he has to change arm angles this late in life...
He is effectively done in my opinion
by ICbirdfan on
Jul 11, 2008 12:52 PM EDT
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It looked like he injured himself
on the pickoff move to first. His arm looked really funky; kinda side arm, underhanded release point with zero velocity.
thats when I thought he hurt it anyway.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on
Jul 11, 2008 12:57 PM EDT
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From Strauss’ article:
The same pitch that struck out Rollins caused Mulder pain so severe he could not throw any of his last eight pitches from the same angle or with the same force.
by liam on
Jul 11, 2008 1:15 PM EDT
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You have to clear waivers if you exceed the 30 day rehab period.
I do have trouble believing that anyone would pick him up off of waivers, though.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on
Jul 11, 2008 12:59 PM EDT
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Thanks.
I doubt any team would have picked him up as you said…..... That is why they had to bring him up to the Majors and I doubt he would really be down for going on the DL for no reason if he felf OK.
I guess I don’t understand how STL really messed up the Mulder situation as Azru said, he can fill me in if need be.
I just thought STL was between a rock and a hard place. They knew he was not very good but at the same time I guess they thought they did not want to put him out on waivers….. hell I don’t know I never really expected him to contribute one bit this year.


